From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Tue Apr 8 18:38:07 2014 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 18:38:07 +0000 Subject: Number 'nine' in Chiwere. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ø Except in Dakotan the *Cy and *Cr clusters fall together. Thanks for that caveat, John. It’s something I will need to be aware of in developing my paper this year! :) Best, Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jekoontz at MSN.COM Tue Apr 8 18:10:32 2014 From: jekoontz at MSN.COM (John Koontz) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 12:10:32 -0600 Subject: Number 'nine' in Chiwere. In-Reply-To: <000801cf4bbe$99267ea0$cb737be0$@com> Message-ID: I'm sorry, some of my text comes out blue. The quotes are marked with >. > Your take on the pronunciations are what I have found as well. Maximilian was really big on the "x" sound which he represented as "ch". Most of his entries with "ch" have a note that says something like "ch guttural." There are two ch's in German. The "gutteral" (velar) one in ach, and the "soft" (or palatal) one in ich. So I expect he's trying to make it clear it's the more velar of the two readings for ch. > And I am also of the opinion that his "sch" is our "sh" sound. Yes. That's the German spelling for what English writes sh. Both actually from Proto-German sk, cf. English doublets like skirt and shirt, or skipper and ship (where the one with k is generally a loan term). > He also simply uses an "s" where he felt it was needed. Although some of his spellings aren't always consistent when he is going with the same word (used in other areas), he does seem to have taken great care to represent pronunciations as accurately as possible. Most of his terms have little notes (as I mentioned above) with them. And from what I've seen of his use of "tsch", it seems to be a "ch" pronounced somewhat forcefully (I don't know the technical term for that). He's essentially transcribing what he hears phonetically, not writing in a standard more or less phonemic orthography. Tsch is standard German spelling for what English writes ch. A forceful one would probably be an aspirated one. The less aspiration, the more it would sound like English j, where German would have orthographic difficulties. > I hadn't considered the idea of the term being reinvented in Osage. I guess it shouldn't be surprising that a culture that has those types of conventions might fill a need in the same manner as before. It depends a lot on the cultural context, but number words are often forgotten or borrowed. For some reason this is not especially true in Indo-European, so it's kind of unexpected. I remember that Omaha speakers were particularly prone to substituting English numerals (and date terms, etc.) even in conversation that was otherwise Omaha. > I'd wondered about the "xce" as well as far as being an intensifier. In Otoe-Missouria, you have a few variants that I've come across. First is more of the "h" sound with "-hji". But I've also often found that where you have a sort of "intrusive h", there are often "x" variants (for example, hga/xga for "white"). So I've also seen "-xji" as well. And to top it off, there are a lot of "s" sounds that work in there as well. I hear the "s" version pronounced often where I work. So that suffix would be "-sji" (other examples would be "wanuhje/wanusje" for "animal"). Another thing to consider is perhaps Maximilian's "ch" for the "xce" portion might be that "k" sound that emerges with glottal stops (I don't know the technical term for it but Hamilton and Irvin document it a lot in their Ioway books). The =xti ~ =xc^i intensifier enclitic, generally glossed 'very' often used in a sense of 'real' or 'just, exactly' is common with 'one'. > Ø Nine, grä̇bena – tscheh – uïningkä̇Ø (the whole run together); i. e.,Ø ten less one; they also say,Ø schangká lebraN (krebraN) =che wiN niNg(e?)ten the one it-lacks che = he with aspirated c (ts), 'the (vertical, inanimate)'. Os che < PDh *the, with *th > ch before e (and i). In general 'vertical' (in a pile) is used with quantities. I agree with Rory that the historical form is s^aNkka, a word that appears widely in Eastern North America, so historically a loan, but I imagine that more analytical terms are fairly common. You can find 'two fours' for 'eight' here and there, and sometimes you find variations like 'sitting on it, two' vs. 'two sixes' , in various languages. We're used to thinking of number systems as fixed, and our modern arithmetic and commercial traditions insist on it, but in many cultural contexts there's less "standardization" or numerals. > I looked up ‘nine’ in Carolyn Quitero’s Osage Dictionary, and the first (long) term is the only one she seems to have listed: lébrą hce wįįke This is the same term., of course, with the initial nasal between wiN and (n)iNge 'to lack' omitted. > Dhegiha *gr- generally goes to l- in Osage and Kaw, but apparently in Maximilian’s time the leading /g/ was still present. His ‘ä’ and his ‘eh’ apparently both represent what we write as /e/, while the ‘e’ between the ‘b’ and the ‘n’ presumably represents schwa. The ‘n’ in the first word would be /r/ followed by a nasal vowel. In Omaha, the corresponding word for ‘ten’ at that time was grébrą, now shortened to grébą. I agree with all this analysis by Rory. The corresponding form in Dakotan (wIN)kc^emna(N) shows us that Proto-Siouan 'ten' is something like *kyepraN. Some people might prefer to think of it as *kyewraN. I don't think there's any contrast between *pr and *wr except "part of speech," which essentially encodes collections of phonological context. Except in Dakotan the *Cy and *Cr clusters fall together. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mawakuni-swetland2 at UNL.EDU Thu Apr 10 22:10:02 2014 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at UNL.EDU (Mark Awakuni-Swetland) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2014 22:10:02 +0000 Subject: Here is a little curious inquiry for all of us to ponder Message-ID: Aloha all, something for the list to consider. Many thanks! Mark A-S Received from william wolkowski 2009zww at gmail.com ALICE IN OMAHA Dear Colleague, For the sesquicentennial in 2015 I am preparing a polyglot graphic study of this quote from chapter 2 in Carroll's Alice in Wonderland "Curiouser and curiouser, cried Alice" If you wish to include it in this study, would you please help me with a translation? Thank you. Best regards Wolkowski Sorbonne Universites UPMC -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Fri Apr 11 00:28:29 2014 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm Goodtracks) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2014 19:28:29 -0500 Subject: Here is a little curious inquiry for all of us to ponder In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ho, Mark! Pi dana ke shige ho ritawe hanax^un ke. I find the quote to be rather curious. However, I haven’t any immediate thoughts that come to me as to how one would render it in Baxoje – Jiwere. In part, the problem with any effective translation of this quote, is the lack of context. Just what is becoming evermore curious? The answer is not yours to give, but it does await clarification of Mr. William Wolkowki and for what application does he want a translation of this Alice in Wonderland statement. Meanwhile, vaya bien en su tratamiento y su cura de su enfermidad. Híne bróge rígrahiwi ke. Wakánda nat^úrigradan mína ho. Jimm G. Goodtracks Báxoje Jiwére Language Project PO Box 55 Tecumseh, KS 66542 Ukínadheda wawáŋarana, ich^é nahá, injé etáwe waróxiñeda adáñešdan – wógiñi kigróšige íthgare ke. “In the middle of resisting, the language got caught, only showing her face in ceremony, like she’s ashamed of her scars.” (www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FUgDutdauQ&feature=share From: Mark Awakuni-Swetland Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 5:10 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Here is a little curious inquiry for all of us to ponder Aloha all, something for the list to consider. Many thanks! Mark A-S Received from william wolkowski 2009zww at gmail.com ALICE IN OMAHA Dear Colleague, For the sesquicentennial in 2015 I am preparing a polyglot graphic study of this quote from chapter 2 in Carroll's Alice in Wonderland "Curiouser and curiouser, cried Alice" If you wish to include it in this study, would you please help me with a translation? Thank you. Best regards Wolkowski Sorbonne Universites UPMC -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aigotm at YAHOO.COM Fri Apr 11 02:41:15 2014 From: aigotm at YAHOO.COM (Emilia Aigotti) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2014 19:41:15 -0700 Subject: Here is a little curious inquiry for all of us to ponder In-Reply-To: <5EB5AC39B40546758A372409D653E554@AsusLaptop> Message-ID: Jimm, are any parts of that video/poem in Baxoje-Jiwere? Emilia ________________________________ From: Jimm Goodtracks To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 7:28 PM Subject: Re: Here is a little curious inquiry for all of us to ponder Ho, Mark!  Pi dana ke shige ho ritawe hanax^un ke.   I find the quote to be rather curious.  However, I haven’t any immediate thoughts that come to me as to how one would render it in Baxoje – Jiwere.  In part, the problem with any effective translation of this quote, is the lack of context.  Just what is becoming evermore curious?  The answer is not yours to give, but it does await clarification of Mr. William Wolkowki and for what application does he want a translation of this Alice in Wonderland statement.   Meanwhile, vaya bien  en su tratamiento y su cura de su enfermidad.  Híne  bróge  rígrahiwi ke.  Wakánda nat^úrigradan mína ho.   Jimm G. Goodtracks Báxoje Jiwére Language Project PO Box 55 Tecumseh, KS 66542 Ukínadheda wawáŋarana, ich^é nahá, injé etáwe waróxiñeda adáñešdan – wógiñi kigróšige íthgare ke. “In the middle of resisting, the language got caught, only showing her face in ceremony, like she’s ashamed of her scars.” (www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FUgDutdauQ&feature=share      From: Mark Awakuni-Swetland Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 5:10 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Here is a little curious inquiry for all of us to ponder   Aloha all, something for the list to consider. Many thanks! Mark A-S   Received from william wolkowski 2009zww at gmail.com   ALICE IN OMAHA   Dear Colleague, For the sesquicentennial in 2015 I am preparing a polyglot graphic study of this quote from chapter 2 in Carroll's Alice in Wonderland "Curiouser and curiouser, cried Alice" If you wish to include it in this study, would you please help me with a translation? Thank you. Best regards Wolkowski Sorbonne Universites UPMC -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU Fri Apr 11 06:37:32 2014 From: linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU (Bryan James Gordon) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2014 23:37:32 -0700 Subject: Here is a little curious inquiry for all of us to ponder In-Reply-To: <5EB5AC39B40546758A372409D653E554@AsusLaptop> Message-ID: I agree with Jimm. Even if you dig into the context enough to translate it, the context belongs to a certain segment of English-speaking society during a certain period of time. Contemporary English speakers find Lewis Carroll hard to wrap our brains around, because his vision is not only a fantasy world, but it's based on obsessions and paranoias that are not as prevalent today, or are not imagined in the same way anymore. It's hard to translate stuff like that into any language, let alone a language from people with a very different view of the world. It's a more distinguished request than pet names and such, but it's not the kind of translation work I would prefer to spend my time on. Why don't people ask us to translate Microsoft Word, or a K-12 curriculum, or something important? Eyáⁿ níⁿ-a Mark? Éska-naⁿ wathíshkaⁿ-taⁿga thigíni maⁿníⁿ shaⁿsháⁿxti kaⁿbthégaⁿ. Wakáⁿda wíbthahaⁿ maⁿbthíⁿ. 2014-04-10 17:28 GMT-07:00 Jimm Goodtracks : > Ho, Mark! Pi dana ke shige ho ritawe hanax^un ke. > > I find the quote to be rather curious. However, I haven’t any immediate > thoughts that come to me as to how one would render it in Baxoje – Jiwere. > In part, the problem with any effective translation of this quote, is the > lack of context. Just what is becoming evermore curious? The answer is > not yours to give, but it does await clarification of Mr. William Wolkowki > and for what application does he want a translation of this Alice in > Wonderland statement. > > Meanwhile, vaya bien en su tratamiento y su cura de su enfermidad. Híne > bróge rígrahiwi ke. Wakánda nat^úrigradan mína ho. > > Jimm G. Goodtracks > Báxoje Jiwére Language Project > PO Box 55 > Tecumseh, KS 66542 > > > Ukínadheda wawáŋarana, ich^é nahá, injé etáwe waróxiñeda adáñešdan – > wógiñi kigróšige íthgare ke. > “In the middle of resisting, the language got caught, only showing her > face in ceremony, like she’s ashamed of her scars.” > (www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FUgDutdauQ&feature=share > > > > > *From:* Mark Awakuni-Swetland > *Sent:* Thursday, April 10, 2014 5:10 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Here is a little curious inquiry for all of us to ponder > > > *Aloha all, something for the list to consider. Many thanks!* > > *Mark A-S* > > > > Received from william wolkowski 2009zww at gmail.com > > > > *ALICE IN OMAHA* > > > > Dear Colleague, > > For the sesquicentennial in 2015 > > I am preparing a polyglot graphic study > > of this quote from chapter 2 > > in Carroll's Alice in Wonderland > > "Curiouser and curiouser, cried Alice" > > If you wish to include it in this study, > > would you please help me > > with a translation? > > Thank you. > > Best regards > > Wolkowski > > Sorbonne Universites UPMC > > > > > > > -- *********************************************************** Bryan James Gordon, MA Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology University of Arizona *********************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Fri Apr 11 12:30:59 2014 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM (Sky Campbell) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 07:30:59 -0500 Subject: Here is a little curious inquiry for all of us to ponder In-Reply-To: <5EB5AC39B40546758A372409D653E554@AsusLaptop> Message-ID: The only thing that springs to mind for me is to express something along the lines of "Whatever it is, I really want to know it." in an attempt to get at the heart of what curious is (times 2 hehehe). Dagure'sų ihapunge hagundasji ke. I could render it as "Whatever it is, I don't know what it is. But I really want to." but that feels a bit cumbersome. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 7:28 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Here is a little curious inquiry for all of us to ponder Ho, Mark! Pi dana ke shige ho ritawe hanax^un ke. I find the quote to be rather curious. However, I haven’t any immediate thoughts that come to me as to how one would render it in Baxoje – Jiwere. In part, the problem with any effective translation of this quote, is the lack of context. Just what is becoming evermore curious? The answer is not yours to give, but it does await clarification of Mr. William Wolkowki and for what application does he want a translation of this Alice in Wonderland statement. Meanwhile, vaya bien en su tratamiento y su cura de su enfermidad. Híne bróge rígrahiwi ke. Wakánda nat^úrigradan mína ho. Jimm G. Goodtracks Báxoje Jiwére Language Project PO Box 55 Tecumseh, KS 66542 Ukínadheda wawáŋarana, ich^é nahá, injé etáwe waróxiñeda adáñešdan – wógiñi kigróšige íthgare ke. “In the middle of resisting, the language got caught, only showing her face in ceremony, like she’s ashamed of her scars.” (www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FUgDutdauQ &feature=share From: Mark Awakuni-Swetland Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 5:10 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Here is a little curious inquiry for all of us to ponder Aloha all, something for the list to consider. Many thanks! Mark A-S Received from william wolkowski 2009zww at gmail.com ALICE IN OMAHA Dear Colleague, For the sesquicentennial in 2015 I am preparing a polyglot graphic study of this quote from chapter 2 in Carroll's Alice in Wonderland "Curiouser and curiouser, cried Alice" If you wish to include it in this study, would you please help me with a translation? Thank you. Best regards Wolkowski Sorbonne Universites UPMC -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Fri Apr 11 12:56:53 2014 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM (Sky Campbell) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 07:56:53 -0500 Subject: Number 'nine' in Chiwere. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes, I suspect the "ch" is the "velar" one as well. Maximillian almost exclusively uses "j" as it is pronounced in French (which is noted for each time it is used). He'll have something like: clear (water), ni-bréjé (French); they give this name to the Mississippi But he also uses a "dj" to represent more of our "j" sound and also points out when the "j" is as in German. This next entry illustrates both: Sea, nih-chonn-djé (dje French); the Ayowas say, nih-chon-je (je German) What I also found interesting is that what we use a "ch" sound for nowadays (for example, "ch'e" for "die"), he has spelled as "tsä̇h". I'm curious about the "ts" rather than the "tsch" he often uses (and even the odd "tj"). Speaking of "tj", I wonder if Maximilian's time period during his travels (early 1830s) was part of a transition period moving from more of a "t" sound to "ch." For example, he has listed "tjä̇" for "buffalo" but has "teh-på-seh-nih" with the "teh" sounding much more Ponca/Omaha. Nowadays we have "che" for buffalo and his use of "t" for one and "tj" for the other has got me thinking :). Plus where we have more ð and Θ now, back then you see more "s" sounds. Fascinating stuff :). One thing to note though is that Maximilian notes that he got his pronunciations from Major Dougherty rather than an Otoe or Missouria speaker. I'm also interested in the "intensifier" being used with the number one. This is my first experience with it (assuming that is what it is) and the first I've heard that it is common. I'll keep an eye out for it :). Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of John Koontz Sent: Tuesday, April 8, 2014 1:11 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Number 'nine' in Chiwere. I'm sorry, some of my text comes out blue. The quotes are marked with >. > Your take on the pronunciations are what I have found as well. Maximilian was really big on the "x" sound which he represented as "ch". Most of his entries with "ch" have a note that says something like "ch guttural." There are two ch's in German. The "gutteral" (velar) one in ach, and the "soft" (or palatal) one in ich. So I expect he's trying to make it clear it's the more velar of the two readings for ch. > And I am also of the opinion that his "sch" is our "sh" sound. Yes. That's the German spelling for what English writes sh. Both actually from Proto-German sk, cf. English doublets like skirt and shirt, or skipper and ship (where the one with k is generally a loan term). > He also simply uses an "s" where he felt it was needed. Although some of his spellings aren't always consistent when he is going with the same word (used in other areas), he does seem to have taken great care to represent pronunciations as accurately as possible. Most of his terms have little notes (as I mentioned above) with them. And from what I've seen of his use of "tsch", it seems to be a "ch" pronounced somewhat forcefully (I don't know the technical term for that). He's essentially transcribing what he hears phonetically, not writing in a standard more or less phonemic orthography. Tsch is standard German spelling for what English writes ch. A forceful one would probably be an aspirated one. The less aspiration, the more it would sound like English j, where German would have orthographic difficulties. > I hadn't considered the idea of the term being reinvented in Osage. I guess it shouldn't be surprising that a culture that has those types of conventions might fill a need in the same manner as before. It depends a lot on the cultural context, but number words are often forgotten or borrowed. For some reason this is not especially true in Indo-European, so it's kind of unexpected. I remember that Omaha speakers were particularly prone to substituting English numerals (and date terms, etc.) even in conversation that was otherwise Omaha. > I'd wondered about the "xce" as well as far as being an intensifier. In Otoe-Missouria, you have a few variants that I've come across. First is more of the "h" sound with "-hji". But I've also often found that where you have a sort of "intrusive h", there are often "x" variants (for example, hga/xga for "white"). So I've also seen "-xji" as well. And to top it off, there are a lot of "s" sounds that work in there as well. I hear the "s" version pronounced often where I work. So that suffix would be "-sji" (other examples would be "wanuhje/wanusje" for "animal"). Another thing to consider is perhaps Maximilian's "ch" for the "xce" portion might be that "k" sound that emerges with glottal stops (I don't know the technical term for it but Hamilton and Irvin document it a lot in their Ioway books). The =xti ~ =xc^i intensifier enclitic, generally glossed 'very' often used in a sense of 'real' or 'just, exactly' is common with 'one'. > Ø Nine, grä̇bena – tscheh – uïningkä̇ Ø (the whole run together); i. e., Ø ten less one; they also say, Ø schangká lebraN (krebraN) =che wiN niNg(e?) ten the one it-lacks che = he with aspirated c (ts), 'the (vertical, inanimate)'. Os che < PDh *the, with *th > ch before e (and i). In general 'vertical' (in a pile) is used with quantities. I agree with Rory that the historical form is s^aNkka, a word that appears widely in Eastern North America, so historically a loan, but I imagine that more analytical terms are fairly common. You can find 'two fours' for 'eight' here and there, and sometimes you find variations like 'sitting on it, two' vs. 'two sixes' , in various languages. We're used to thinking of number systems as fixed, and our modern arithmetic and commercial traditions insist on it, but in many cultural contexts there's less "standardization" or numerals. > I looked up ‘nine’ in Carolyn Quitero’s Osage Dictionary, and the first (long) term is the only one she seems to have listed: lébrą hce wįįke This is the same term., of course, with the initial nasal between wiN and (n)iNge 'to lack' omitted. > Dhegiha *gr- generally goes to l- in Osage and Kaw, but apparently in Maximilian’s time the leading /g/ was still present. His ‘ä’ and his ‘eh’ apparently both represent what we write as /e/, while the ‘e’ between the ‘b’ and the ‘n’ presumably represents schwa. The ‘n’ in the first word would be /r/ followed by a nasal vowel. In Omaha, the corresponding word for ‘ten’ at that time was grébrą, now shortened to grébą. I agree with all this analysis by Rory. The corresponding form in Dakotan (wIN)kc^emna(N) shows us that Proto-Siouan 'ten' is something like *kyepraN. Some people might prefer to think of it as *kyewraN. I don't think there's any contrast between *pr and *wr except "part of speech," which essentially encodes collections of phonological context. Except in Dakotan the *Cy and *Cr clusters fall together. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Fri Apr 11 13:11:59 2014 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM (Sky Campbell) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 08:11:59 -0500 Subject: Aho! (IO -ka in Imperatives) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I just remembered that I needed to respond to this email so I apologize for the delay! Outlook says I replied but I don't remember doing so...perhaps I started it but had to stop. For Dorsey, the ' character that I used actually looks like a ʾ (not sure if you can see that...think of a superscripted reversed "c"). Does that help? Last week I had someone come to my office and they were knowledgeable enough to have me bring this up to them. They looked at it and recognized it but couldn't immediately remember the details on it. They said they'd think on it and I expect to follow up with them soon. Your mention of kare/gare perhaps being a male imperative is interesting. I mentioned in another email how this time period (1830-40s) seems to show a shift away from some of the Ponca/Omaha morphemes to today's versions. Perhaps, as you suggested, this could be another. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of John Koontz Sent: Thursday, March 6, 2014 4:16 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! (IO -ka in Imperatives) In k'a what is '? If it is aspiration (opening quote) this sounds a little like the ubiquitous the (th = aspirate) in OP. It actually alternates with the inanimate articles (the ~ khe ~ dhaN ~ ge) and is associated with something like pastness. The alternants indicate something about the "shape" of the action, as they indicate the shape of the noun when they are inanimate articles. (And khe 'long, lying' occurs with animate things like snakes.) I am pretty sure that the sense of these forms in OP is not pastness per se but 'deducibility'. As a set they indicate that the action is deduced to have occurred (in the shape indicated). This contrasts with the ama particle that occurs with reported things (and conditions any preceding plural-proximate marker to be bi instead of I). The "proximate" term is one I have borrowed from Algonquian usage and is not very suitable. The general idea is that the action can be observed to occur and takes place under the independent volition of the third person singular subject. And this is (for some reason) marked with a plural marker on the third person subject. Only Dhegiha has this pattern. But it keeps coming up because I need to explain that a=i is 'he (proximate) said' in most places, even though it looks like 'they said'. There is a non-proximate, or obviative e 'he said', but it is vanishingly rare in texts. The a=i is also 'they said', of course. (The IO analogs of e and a=i are e and a=wi.) We have to be a little careful with associating ga's. Siouan languages are full of forms that look the same and mean something different. In OP ga is the masculine imperative, the "yonder" demonstrative, and the "by striking" instrumental besides the places where it turns up superficially because gi has contracted with a following a. There's also places where aN 'we' is followed by the locative prefix a- 'on' producing aNga-. From your examples I think you are safe in associating the cases of kare where there is an imperative meaning. If you have kare alternating indeterminately with re and in more modern examples completely replaced by re, maybe you just have a case of a historical change in usage observed in progress? I can think of all kinds of things that are somewhat irregular in OP and Da because they are changing and are controlled by the formulas the speaker has heard various others use, by their sense of style as it applies in a specific utterance, and so on. Because there is an male imperative particle ga in OP it is worth wondering if =ka=re originally marked male imperatives in IO. If it works at all like OP (where the female imperative is =a), I would expect re alone to be the female imperative and to condition the a-grade of preceding ablauting e. In other words, the female imperative would be =a=re, and that initial a would replace any preceding e. It might occasionally show up as an extra element if the preceding vowel wasn't e. So in OP =a=di 'in' changes preceding e to a, ppahe ~ ppahadi, and sometimes the a appears in forms like ppamu ~ ppamuadi, tti ~ ttiadi, or sometimes you just get =di and sometimes a preceding e doesn't change either. These last, simpler patterns are, of course, the modern ones. It looks like Whitman says the imperative does condition e > a. So, for what it's worth, that pattern is consistent. Conceivably the IO imperative in the early 1800 was something like the OP one, but with the additional element =re following it. The OP imperative can be extended (for male speakers anyway) by =hau, which is essentially the declarative. Sort of like "yep!" at the end of a sentence, maybe. And sort of like the =re in IO, except that the =re is always there are ends up surviving as the only element visible. As far as female speech forms replacing male speech forms, this is actually something that can happen. Or the reverse. And apart from apparently straight up changes like that, it is also possible that the difference between the two forms was actually something like a strong suggestion (=ka=re) vs. a milder, politer one (=a=re) and men are more culturally enabled to make strong suggestions. However, fashions in these things change continually. In general the sentence final particles are highly unstable in Siouan languages, and even closely related languages (or the same language at different periods) have different systems. It was suggested that ka might be 'yon'. We could even guess that ka (or ga) in an imperative might actually be historically the ga demonstrative, used as an imperative particle. Sort of "eat, that, do it!" I'm kind of reminded of the use of ese in Chicano Spanish, though I think that is more of a male declarative. I've never really figured it out! _____ Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 22:30:11 -0600 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Aho! To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Yes, "naha" is an article going along the lines of "the", "that which", "the one who", etc. You've given me a lot to think about and a lot of terminology that I'll have to wrap my head around since I'm not familiar with it. My assistants and I spent over 3 hours today tracking down all the instances of Merrill and Hamilton's use of this -ga/-ka and mapped them to a grid on a large dry-erase board in an effort to try to find some kind of common element among all of them. Unfortunately we had no luck. We tried to think of everything we could think of when it came to those verbs. Were they transitive or intransitive? Animate or inanimate objects? Singular or plural? Was the object "known" to the speaker (meaning was the speaker referring to something specific...sort of along the lines of the idea of "that" I mentioned earlier)? Of course we know that we aren't looking for every possible criteria since there are many we don't know about (like some of the ideas you mentioned). I've mentioned several of our theories such as "that", "now", "in like manner", etc. But while we were plugging away I was perusing Dorsey's vocabulary slips and found this: k'a (masc) (adverb) - of action in past time, not continuing into the present And the example he gives is: Swagaxe k'a - you did write then (but you do not write now) So in this context, I wonder if perhaps it could be along the lines of (to use an example from before) "Look at the snake" perhaps with the idea that you were looking at the snake before but aren't now and I want you to do so again. This may not be correct though since Dorsey mentions "see also" and has the endings "ke", "ki", etc. so this may represent the end of a statement and not simply an adverb that can be used where needed. Dorsey also has a rather enigmatic term "kare" (or perhaps "k'are") where he mentions "It seems to imply that the thought or desire was not gratified" but he doesn't just list this term with that explanation but rather just uses it with examples such as: Ji kare hįrawi - we thought that he would have come hither (but he did not come) I'm noting that this is after the verb that they want to attach this to which matches the placement of the enigmatic -ga/-ka. So along these lines, perhaps it could be "Look at the snake" with the idea of I wanted you to look at the snake but you didn't so I am requesting/commanding again since you didn't do it before. Yet another couple theories to add to this :). Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of John Koontz Sent: Wednesday, March 5, 2014 9:00 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Aho! I would guess this pair contrasts something analogous to Omaha-Ponca 'to say' vs. 'to say to'. The 'say' stems are highly irregular in Omaha-Ponca like most Siouan, but underlyingly they are something like e=...he vs. e=gi=...he. So the first persons are ehe 'I said it' (from something like Proto-Dhegiha *e=phe) vs. egiphe 'I said (it) to him'. The third persons are a=i 'they said' vs. ega=i 'they said to him'. I've reconstructed the plural from memory of the logic of the system. What I remember is the unpluralized from ege (e=g(i)...(h)e). The gi element is the dative marker of course and the weird thing about (OP) 'say' is that that comes *before* the pronoun. When gi is followed by the root (h)e it contracts with it. I'm not sure the root is really -he in the third person. The first and second persons are clearly built on e=(gi)=...he, but the inclusive is usually from another verb entirely, and the third person behaves like e by itself in the simple stem and e=g(i)=...e in the dative. The initial e= is presumably an incorporated e 'the aforesaid'. And, of course, this is the quoting verb that follows a quotation. There's a form with initial ga 'yonder' that is used preceding a quotation. The third person is essentially always seen as a=(nothing) or a=i or a=bi with the plural-proximate marker following e and conditioning the a-grade of the stem. (So you almost never get a singular looking form, and if you did it would be just e, and so hard to know from a demonstrative e.) The =(nothing) form of the plural-proximate is current now when no other particle follows. Dorsey always has a=i or a=bi (the latter when the quotation is itself quoted in some way). Anyway, making allowances, I hope, for my poor grasp of IO, I make these e=wa-a naha 'the one who says something' vs. e=wa-g(i)-a naha 'the one who says (something) to someone' I hope I correctly remember naha as an article of some sort. If not ... When you add a dative to something then the object is the dative object and the "direct object" sort of falls out of the agreement pattern. Sometimes it hangs around in the sentence as a noun (or quotation) without governing anything in the verb. What the relationalists called a chomeur. _____ I may have found a clue for "ka." Dorsey has the term: e-wa-na-ha - the speaker; the one speaking Then he has the term: e wa-ka-na-ha - the one who is meant; the person addressed I'm not sure how (or even if) this is related to the "ka" I am asking about but I'm trying to look at it in different ways to see if it fits somehow. Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Fri Apr 11 14:36:07 2014 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm Goodtracks) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 09:36:07 -0500 Subject: Here is a little curious inquiry for all of us to ponder In-Reply-To: <1397184075.92968.YahooMailNeo@web185406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Emilia: If you are speaking of “Alice in Wonderland” – No! None of the story/ script has been rendered in IOM, and I believe it is due to a lack of interest. I am still interested here in what motivates William Wolkowski to want a translation of the phrase/ quotation from the story. Jimm From: Emilia Aigotti Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 9:41 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Here is a little curious inquiry for all of us to ponder Jimm, are any parts of that video/poem in Baxoje-Jiwere? Emilia -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jimm Goodtracks To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 7:28 PM Subject: Re: Here is a little curious inquiry for all of us to ponder Ho, Mark! Pi dana ke shige ho ritawe hanax^un ke. I find the quote to be rather curious. However, I haven’t any immediate thoughts that come to me as to how one would render it in Baxoje – Jiwere. In part, the problem with any effective translation of this quote, is the lack of context. Just what is becoming evermore curious? The answer is not yours to give, but it does await clarification of Mr. William Wolkowki and for what application does he want a translation of this Alice in Wonderland statement. Meanwhile, vaya bien en su tratamiento y su cura de su enfermidad. Híne bróge rígrahiwi ke. Wakánda nat^úrigradan mína ho. Jimm G. Goodtracks Báxoje Jiwére Language Project PO Box 55 Tecumseh, KS 66542 Ukínadheda wawáŋarana, ich^é nahá, injé etáwe waróxiñeda adáñešdan – wógiñi kigróšige íthgare ke. “In the middle of resisting, the language got caught, only showing her face in ceremony, like she’s ashamed of her scars.” (www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FUgDutdauQ&feature=share From: Mark Awakuni-Swetland Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 5:10 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Here is a little curious inquiry for all of us to ponder Aloha all, something for the list to consider. Many thanks! Mark A-S Received from william wolkowski 2009zww at gmail.com ALICE IN OMAHA Dear Colleague, For the sesquicentennial in 2015 I am preparing a polyglot graphic study of this quote from chapter 2 in Carroll's Alice in Wonderland "Curiouser and curiouser, cried Alice" If you wish to include it in this study, would you please help me with a translation? Thank you. Best regards Wolkowski Sorbonne Universites UPMC -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Fri Apr 11 15:11:45 2014 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm Goodtracks) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 10:11:45 -0500 Subject: Here is a little curious inquiry for all of us to ponder In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mr. Wolkowski: It is nice of you to invite a reading of Chapter 2 in Alice in Wonderland, however, I really have other priorities and remain unclear for the need of your particular quote from the story, which has nothing in common to Native American Culture. Perhaps, you read the reply from Gordon James Bryon on the Siouan Lists, which I think answers very well the perspective of many of us on this Siouan Lists as to time constraints and priorities of side requests that are not directly related to the work, interests and attention of the members. In other words, to spend time on translation of materials that are not of immediate application to the communities in which we represent, is nonsensical and for my part, a waste of my precious time in my later years of this life’s journey. Nevertheless, best to you in whatever it is that you are about. Jimm G Goodtracks Jimm G. Goodtracks Báxoje Jiwére Language Project PO Box 55 Tecumseh, KS 66542 Ukínadheda wawáŋarana, ich^é nahá, injé etáwe waróxiñeda adáñešdan – wógiñi kigróšige íthgare ke. “In the middle of resisting, the language got caught, only showing her face in ceremony, like she’s ashamed of her scars.” (www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FUgDutdauQ&feature=share From: william wolkowski Sent: Friday, April 11, 2014 3:51 AM To: Jimm Goodtracks Subject: Re: Here is a little curious inquiry for all of us to ponder Dear Colleague, Thank you for your kind answer. Please read chapter 2 in Alice for the context. This polyglot graphic study, with 47 languages received so far, will be presented in the US and Europe and published in 2015 for the sesquicentennial. Native languages from the Americas are welcome. I invite you to visit my 33 titles available from amazon.com including "Lewis Carroll: the Spirit and the Letter". Some titles are polyglot (Curie, Poe, Rimbaud, St Benedict, etc). The catalog of LOC Washington holds my "A study in geopoetics and identity..." a compilation of Mickiewicz poem in 109 languages. Best regards Wolkowski Sorbonne Universites UPMC 2014-04-11 2:28 GMT+02:00 Jimm Goodtracks : Ho, Mark! Pi dana ke shige ho ritawe hanax^un ke. I find the quote to be rather curious. However, I haven’t any immediate thoughts that come to me as to how one would render it in Baxoje – Jiwere. In part, the problem with any effective translation of this quote, is the lack of context. Just what is becoming evermore curious? The answer is not yours to give, but it does await clarification of Mr. William Wolkowki and for what application does he want a translation of this Alice in Wonderland statement. Meanwhile, vaya bien en su tratamiento y su cura de su enfermidad. Híne bróge rígrahiwi ke. Wakánda nat^úrigradan mína ho. Jimm G. Goodtracks Báxoje Jiwére Language Project PO Box 55 Tecumseh, KS 66542 Ukínadheda wawáŋarana, ich^é nahá, injé etáwe waróxiñeda adáñešdan – wógiñi kigróšige íthgare ke. “In the middle of resisting, the language got caught, only showing her face in ceremony, like she’s ashamed of her scars.” (www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FUgDutdauQ&feature=share From: Mark Awakuni-Swetland Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 5:10 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Here is a little curious inquiry for all of us to ponder Aloha all, something for the list to consider. Many thanks! Mark A-S Received from william wolkowski 2009zww at gmail.com ALICE IN OMAHA Dear Colleague, For the sesquicentennial in 2015 I am preparing a polyglot graphic study of this quote from chapter 2 in Carroll's Alice in Wonderland "Curiouser and curiouser, cried Alice" If you wish to include it in this study, would you please help me with a translation? Thank you. Best regards Wolkowski Sorbonne Universites UPMC -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Fri Apr 11 15:27:42 2014 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm Goodtracks) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 10:27:42 -0500 Subject: Alice translation In-Reply-To: <7AA693EF-2990-4815-B7B9-20A467142228@cox.net> Message-ID: Dear Erik Hanson: I cannot refute what you say below in regard to your statement that Alice in Wonderland, the Bible, Koran and Shakespeare are the most translated and published in various languages of the world. If you say so, I will take it as so on face value. However, I assure you that in the last 115 years here in Indian Country, USA, there has been no interest in these four works of literature on the part of an member of the indigenous communities of the Northern and Southern Plains that represent the Siouan, Caddoan and other indigenous languages families. As such, for my part, I have not available time to spend in satisfying someone’s whims to translate some phrase or work of no consequence to the language communities just for the hell of it, i.e., the sake of making a translation. Such tasks can be given to the idle hands of someone who has nothing better to do with their time. Sincerely, Jimm G. Goodtracks Jimm G. Goodtracks Báxoje Jiwére Language Project PO Box 55 Tecumseh, KS 66542 Ukínadheda wawáŋarana, ich^é nahá, injé etáwe waróxiñeda adáñešdan – wógiñi kigróšige íthgare ke. “In the middle of resisting, the language got caught, only showing her face in ceremony, like she’s ashamed of her scars.” (www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FUgDutdauQ&feature=share -----Original Message----- From: Erik Hanson Sent: Friday, April 11, 2014 9:54 AM To: Jimm Goodtracks Subject: Alice translation Hello: "Alice" is one of the standards that translators deal with and think about. It's the fourth most quoted work in history (after the Bible, Koran, and the complete works of Shakespeare) and the only one of the four both secular and of a manageable size. It has already been translated and published into 125 languages, back to the 1860s and probably a few more unpublished. There is no insult to be read into a desire for a short bit, at least, to be rendered into any/every language. I do question the merits of that particular bit. Regards, Erik Sent from my iPhone, please forgive typos and brevity. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU Fri Apr 11 16:19:11 2014 From: WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU (De Reuse, Willem) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 16:19:11 +0000 Subject: Alice translation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Interesting discussion. I did not know about Alice in Wonderland. As someone who works on Apache, I get a lot of requests for translations, as Apache is one of these "iconic" Native American languages. One has to pick and choose, if it is short and culturally appropriate, I generally agree to it. I remember once translating a short Jewish prayer into Apache. The Apaches liked it. After all Apaches, like Jews, know something about wandering about in the desert. Then other requests have to be nixed, like the set of "Spring Break" phrases I once was asked to translate, things like "I am so drunk", and "where is the bathroom?". Portions of the Bible have more appeal that the other four works. I add a link to a nice example. Thanks Jimm for this. http://iowayotoelang.nativeweb.org/pdf/christmasstory.pdf Another great Bible story that has been used for linguistic work is the Parable of Prodigal son, which has been recorded in many more versions than the New Testament itself, and probably second in number of translations to the Lord's Prayer. One does not have to be a Christian to appreciate this parable is an awfully good story, of almost universal appeal, except maybe to vegans! Willem ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics on behalf of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Friday, April 11, 2014 10:27 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Alice translation Dear Erik Hanson: I cannot refute what you say below in regard to your statement that Alice in Wonderland, the Bible, Koran and Shakespeare are the most translated and published in various languages of the world. If you say so, I will take it as so on face value. However, I assure you that in the last 115 years here in Indian Country, USA, there has been no interest in these four works of literature on the part of an member of the indigenous communities of the Northern and Southern Plains that represent the Siouan, Caddoan and other indigenous languages families. As such, for my part, I have not available time to spend in satisfying someone's whims to translate some phrase or work of no consequence to the language communities just for the hell of it, i.e., the sake of making a translation. Such tasks can be given to the idle hands of someone who has nothing better to do with their time. Sincerely, Jimm G. Goodtracks Jimm G. Goodtracks B?xoje Jiw?re Language Project PO Box 55 Tecumseh, KS 66542 Uk?nadheda waw??arana, ich^? nah?, inj? et?we war?xi?eda ad??e?dan - w?gi?i kigr??ige ?thgare ke. "In the middle of resisting, the language got caught, only showing her face in ceremony, like she's ashamed of her scars." (www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FUgDutdauQ&feature=share -----Original Message----- From: Erik Hanson Sent: Friday, April 11, 2014 9:54 AM To: Jimm Goodtracks Subject: Alice translation Hello: "Alice" is one of the standards that translators deal with and think about. It's the fourth most quoted work in history (after the Bible, Koran, and the complete works of Shakespeare) and the only one of the four both secular and of a manageable size. It has already been translated and published into 125 languages, back to the 1860s and probably a few more unpublished. There is no insult to be read into a desire for a short bit, at least, to be rendered into any/every language. I do question the merits of that particular bit. Regards, Erik Sent from my iPhone, please forgive typos and brevity. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aigotm at YAHOO.COM Fri Apr 11 16:32:41 2014 From: aigotm at YAHOO.COM (aigotm) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 11:32:41 -0500 Subject: Here is a little curious inquiry for all of us to ponder Message-ID: Sorry. I was referring to the link you attached for "Bad Indian". Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device -------- Original message -------- From: Jimm Goodtracks Date:04/11/2014 9:36 AM (GMT-06:00) To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Here is a little curious inquiry for all of us to ponder Emilia: If you are speaking of “Alice in Wonderland” – No! None of the story/ script has been rendered in IOM, and I believe it is due to a lack of interest.  I am still interested here in what motivates William Wolkowski to want a translation of the phrase/ quotation from the story. Jimm    From: Emilia Aigotti Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 9:41 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Here is a little curious inquiry for all of us to ponder   Jimm, are any parts of that video/poem in Baxoje-Jiwere? Emilia   From: Jimm Goodtracks To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 7:28 PM Subject: Re: Here is a little curious inquiry for all of us to ponder   Ho, Mark!  Pi dana ke shige ho ritawe hanax^un ke.   I find the quote to be rather curious.  However, I haven’t any immediate thoughts that come to me as to how one would render it in Baxoje – Jiwere.  In part, the problem with any effective translation of this quote, is the lack of context.  Just what is becoming evermore curious?  The answer is not yours to give, but it does await clarification of Mr. William Wolkowki and for what application does he want a translation of this Alice in Wonderland statement.   Meanwhile, vaya bien  en su tratamiento y su cura de su enfermidad.  Híne  bróge  rígrahiwi ke.  Wakánda nat^úrigradan mína ho.   Jimm G. Goodtracks Báxoje Jiwére Language Project PO Box 55 Tecumseh, KS 66542 Ukínadheda wawáŋarana, ich^é nahá, injé etáwe waróxiñeda adáñešdan – wógiñi kigróšige íthgare ke. “In the middle of resisting, the language got caught, only showing her face in ceremony, like she’s ashamed of her scars.” (www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FUgDutdauQ&feature=share       From: Mark Awakuni-Swetland Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 5:10 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Here is a little curious inquiry for all of us to ponder   Aloha all, something for the list to consider. Many thanks! Mark A-S   Received from william wolkowski 2009zww at gmail.com   ALICE IN OMAHA   Dear Colleague, For the sesquicentennial in 2015 I am preparing a polyglot graphic study of this quote from chapter 2 in Carroll's Alice in Wonderland "Curiouser and curiouser, cried Alice" If you wish to include it in this study, would you please help me with a translation? Thank you. Best regards Wolkowski Sorbonne Universites UPMC       -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Fri Apr 11 15:57:56 2014 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 15:57:56 +0000 Subject: Here is a little curious inquiry for all of us to ponder In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ø "Curiouser and curiouser, cried Alice" Actually, I don’t think the challenge is that unreasonable. The context is simply that a person is encountering events that are increasingly strange, unusual and difficult to explain, and exclaiming upon that. Such a situation could occur in any society. The term ‘curious’ throws us, because its primary meaning in English is ‘eager to learn about something’. But in this context, the meaning is ‘strange’ or ‘weird’. For Omaha and Ponca, I think the appropriate term would probably be “àži” (“ázhi”), which also carries the meaning of ‘different’, as well as being used as the standard negator (‘not’). Next, we have the syntax of the expression. In English, the increasing strangeness is indicated through a device of compounding two instances of the ‘strange’ adjective in comparative form, using “and” as a linking conjunction. But Omaha/Ponca, to my knowledge, has no comparative form of adjectives, no general word for “and”, and in any case would not use that compounded comparative device to indicate that a quality is increasing. Ideally, I think an O/P speaker would reduplicate the adjective and add a continuant marker, probably “(h)náⁿ”, to get the sense of increasing quality. Unfortunately, I don’t know that “ázhi” reduplicates. We do have the word “àži-roⁿroⁿ” (“ázhi-thaⁿthaⁿ), which I have recorded as meaning ‘different kinds’. I think “thaⁿthaⁿ” is a device that implies “reduplication of the preceding lexeme”. I’m not sure if it is appropriate for this case, however. Mostly it shows up with numbers and similar terms to suggest grouping according what is indicated by the relevant lexeme, e.g., “by threes”. So for Alice’s exclamation, I can think of three possibilities. If “ázhi”, ‘strange’, reduplicates, then we could have: ázhizhi hnaⁿ Else if “thaⁿthaⁿ” works here, we could have: ázhi-thaⁿthaⁿ hnaⁿ Else if we want to be conservative and fake the reduplication by using “shi”, ‘again’, we could have: shi ázhi hnaⁿ If we are doing O/P contemporary with Lewis Carroll, we would want to add “i he” at the end, given that Alice is a female speaker and is speaking emphatically. The emphatic part can’t really be conveyed by the story frame “cried Alice”, because there doesn’t seem to be any word for “cry out in emphatic speech” in O/P. There is only “é”, ‘say’, and “báⁿ”, ‘scream’ or ‘yell’. The latter wouldn’t be used to describe a manner of speech, so we would have to use the ‘say’ word. Since it is a story of factually dubious content, we would want to use “biama” after ‘she said it’. Alice, as the active subject, would probably take “ak ͪ a” as her article. So my three guesses are: “Ázhizhi hnaⁿ i he!” á biama Alice ak ͪ a. “Ázhi-thaⁿthaⁿ hnaⁿ i he!” á biama Alice ak ͪ a. “Shi ázhi hnaⁿ i he!” á biama Alice ak ͪ a. Of the three, I like the first one best if “ázhizhi” is actually a word. Otherwise, I’d probably go with the third. The best recourse would be to ask a native speaker. If any Omaha-Poncanist can improve on this, suggestions are welcome! Otherwise, we might have to concede this round to Sapir and Whorf. :) Cheers, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Bryan James Gordon Sent: Friday, April 11, 2014 1:38 AM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: Here is a little curious inquiry for all of us to ponder I agree with Jimm. Even if you dig into the context enough to translate it, the context belongs to a certain segment of English-speaking society during a certain period of time. Contemporary English speakers find Lewis Carroll hard to wrap our brains around, because his vision is not only a fantasy world, but it's based on obsessions and paranoias that are not as prevalent today, or are not imagined in the same way anymore. It's hard to translate stuff like that into any language, let alone a language from people with a very different view of the world. It's a more distinguished request than pet names and such, but it's not the kind of translation work I would prefer to spend my time on. Why don't people ask us to translate Microsoft Word, or a K-12 curriculum, or something important? Eyáⁿ níⁿ-a Mark? Éska-naⁿ wathíshkaⁿ-taⁿga thigíni maⁿníⁿ shaⁿsháⁿxti kaⁿbthégaⁿ. Wakáⁿda wíbthahaⁿ maⁿbthíⁿ. 2014-04-10 17:28 GMT-07:00 Jimm Goodtracks >: Ho, Mark! Pi dana ke shige ho ritawe hanax^un ke. I find the quote to be rather curious. However, I haven’t any immediate thoughts that come to me as to how one would render it in Baxoje – Jiwere. In part, the problem with any effective translation of this quote, is the lack of context. Just what is becoming evermore curious? The answer is not yours to give, but it does await clarification of Mr. William Wolkowki and for what application does he want a translation of this Alice in Wonderland statement. Meanwhile, vaya bien en su tratamiento y su cura de su enfermidad. Híne bróge rígrahiwi ke. Wakánda nat^úrigradan mína ho. Jimm G. Goodtracks Báxoje Jiwére Language Project PO Box 55 Tecumseh, KS 66542 Ukínadheda wawáŋarana, ich^é nahá, injé etáwe waróxiñeda adáñešdan – wógiñi kigróšige íthgare ke. “In the middle of resisting, the language got caught, only showing her face in ceremony, like she’s ashamed of her scars.” (www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FUgDutdauQ&feature=share From: Mark Awakuni-Swetland Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 5:10 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Here is a little curious inquiry for all of us to ponder Aloha all, something for the list to consider. Many thanks! Mark A-S Received from william wolkowski 2009zww at gmail.com ALICE IN OMAHA Dear Colleague, For the sesquicentennial in 2015 I am preparing a polyglot graphic study of this quote from chapter 2 in Carroll's Alice in Wonderland "Curiouser and curiouser, cried Alice" If you wish to include it in this study, would you please help me with a translation? Thank you. Best regards Wolkowski Sorbonne Universites UPMC -- *********************************************************** Bryan James Gordon, MA Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology University of Arizona *********************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.rood at COLORADO.EDU Fri Apr 11 17:27:01 2014 From: david.rood at COLORADO.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 11:27:01 -0600 Subject: regrets and thoughts Message-ID: Hi, everyone, My family schedule for at least part of the summer has finally settled down, and I regret that it precludes me from attending the SCLC again this year. The earliest I could get to Madison would be mid-afternoon on Saturday, hardly the appropriate time for participating in the meeting. I am very much interested in what is decided about honoring Bob Rankin, however, and in what might be done to make his huge contribution to the history of Siouan and the structure of Dhegiah part of a permanent record. I know he has many papers that have never been published, as well as many that are published here and there in places we don't always know about. As early as 1984, at the workshop that launched the Comparative Dictionary project, I proposed a "collection of papers" volume that would be a place for his work (and others), but that has never materialized. Moreover, for the last few years Bob was the major player in the evolution of the Comparative Dictionary. As most of you know, Iren Hartmann at the MPI-Leipzig is working on creating a usable digital verson of the CSD. Of the original 5 participants (John Koontz, Wes Jones, Dick Carter, Rankin and me) in the project, I guess I'm the only one who is still interested and available, so I'm going to work with Iren to see if that can't be finalized and formalized. There is quite a bit of urgency here, because as many of you know, the structure of the MPI in Leipzig will change dramatically in May of 2015, and they will likely no longer be interested in supporting Iren's work. If any of you have any thoughts on how best to move forward with either Bob's legacy or the CSD, please discuss them at the meeting and keep me informed. I don't feel like I know Carolyn well enough to approach her about any of this; perhaps one of you would be willing to help with that. Best wishes to all for a fruitful and fun meeting. David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Fri Apr 11 18:12:43 2014 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 13:12:43 -0500 Subject: regrets and thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi David and all, Sorry to hear David that you won't be able to make it to the SCLC this year. I know we have talked about doing a Festschrift in Bob's honor, and this is certainly something we can discuss at the meeting. Hopefully our organizers can set aside some time on the schedule so we can all participate in this discussion. As for the CSD, I think it's a great idea to have it finalized and published in some form, either electronically or in print, or both. As concerns Bob's unpublished papers and computer files, Carolyn, Bob's wife, and I have been in touch fairly regularly. Even before Bob's death, she said that she and Bob had discussed it and thought it would be best that I come up to their house and "clean out" his garage full of files, books, etc. Also, I plan to take a USB drive and download as much of his computer files as possible, at least some of which I know pertain to Kaw. I'll be happy to distribute whatever I find pertaining to other Siouan languages to those of you who want it. I'm hoping to go up and do this in the next couple of months, possibly in early June or so before it gets too hot. I know Carolyn is thinking about selling the house and moving up to be with family in Wisconsin, so this cleaning out will have to be done fairly soon anyway. Anyway, I'll keep everyone posted as plans for these things become more concrete. Things are a bit crazy for me right now as I work full-time for the Kaw Nation and try to finish my dissertation without yet having another committee member to substitute for Bob. I hope to defend in May, but I'm still awaiting final word on a new committee member and date from my advisor. Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 12:27 PM, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > Hi, everyone, > My family schedule for at least part of the summer has finally > settled down, and I regret that it precludes me from attending the SCLC > again this year. The earliest I could get to Madison would be > mid-afternoon on Saturday, hardly the appropriate time for participating in > the meeting. > > I am very much interested in what is decided about honoring Bob > Rankin, however, and in what might be done to make his huge contribution to > the history of Siouan and the structure of Dhegiah part of a permanent > record. I know he has many papers that have never been published, as well > as many that are published here and there in places we don't always know > about. As early as 1984, at the workshop that launched the Comparative > Dictionary project, I proposed a "collection of papers" volume that would > be a place for his work (and others), but that has never materialized. > Moreover, for the last few years Bob was the major player in the > evolution of the Comparative Dictionary. As most of you know, Iren > Hartmann at the MPI-Leipzig is working on creating a usable digital verson > of the CSD. Of the original 5 participants (John Koontz, Wes Jones, Dick > Carter, Rankin and me) in the project, I guess I'm the only one who is > still interested and available, so I'm going to work with Iren to see if > that can't be finalized and formalized. There is quite a bit of urgency > here, because as many of you know, the structure of the MPI in Leipzig will > change dramatically in May of 2015, and they will likely no longer be > interested in supporting Iren's work. > > If any of you have any thoughts on how best to move forward with > either Bob's legacy or the CSD, please discuss them at the meeting and keep > me informed. I don't feel like I know Carolyn well enough to approach her > about any of this; perhaps one of you would be willing to help with that. > > Best wishes to all for a fruitful and fun meeting. > > David > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Apr 11 18:26:57 2014 From: pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET (David Costa) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 11:26:57 -0700 Subject: regrets and thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Did Bob ever express a preference as to where his papers should end up? I would assume either the NAA or the APS would be best… Dave Costa > Hi David and all, > > Sorry to hear David that you won't be able to make it to the SCLC this year. > > I know we have talked about doing a Festschrift in Bob's honor, and this is certainly something we can discuss at the meeting. Hopefully our organizers can set aside some time on the schedule so we can all participate in this discussion. > > As for the CSD, I think it's a great idea to have it finalized and published in some form, either electronically or in print, or both. > > As concerns Bob's unpublished papers and computer files, Carolyn, Bob's wife, and I have been in touch fairly regularly. Even before Bob's death, she said that she and Bob had discussed it and thought it would be best that I come up to their house and "clean out" his garage full of files, books, etc. Also, I plan to take a USB drive and download as much of his computer files as possible, at least some of which I know pertain to Kaw. I'll be happy to distribute whatever I find pertaining to other Siouan languages to those of you who want it. I'm hoping to go up and do this in the next couple of months, possibly in early June or so before it gets too hot. I know Carolyn is thinking about selling the house and moving up to be with family in Wisconsin, so this cleaning out will have to be done fairly soon anyway. > > Anyway, I'll keep everyone posted as plans for these things become more concrete. Things are a bit crazy for me right now as I work full-time for the Kaw Nation and try to finish my dissertation without yet having another committee member to substitute for Bob. I hope to defend in May, but I'm still awaiting final word on a new committee member and date from my advisor. > > Dave > > David Kaufman > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > > On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 12:27 PM, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > Hi, everyone, > My family schedule for at least part of the summer has finally settled down, and I regret that it precludes me from attending the SCLC again this year. The earliest I could get to Madison would be mid-afternoon on Saturday, hardly the appropriate time for participating in the meeting. > > I am very much interested in what is decided about honoring Bob Rankin, however, and in what might be done to make his huge contribution to the history of Siouan and the structure of Dhegiah part of a permanent record. I know he has many papers that have never been published, as well as many that are published here and there in places we don't always know about. As early as 1984, at the workshop that launched the Comparative Dictionary project, I proposed a "collection of papers" volume that would be a place for his work (and others), but that has never materialized. > Moreover, for the last few years Bob was the major player in the evolution of the Comparative Dictionary. As most of you know, Iren Hartmann at the MPI-Leipzig is working on creating a usable digital verson of the CSD. Of the original 5 participants (John Koontz, Wes Jones, Dick Carter, Rankin and me) in the project, I guess I'm the only one who is still interested and available, so I'm going to work with Iren to see if that can't be finalized and formalized. There is quite a bit of urgency here, because as many of you know, the structure of the MPI in Leipzig will change dramatically in May of 2015, and they will likely no longer be interested in supporting Iren's work. > > If any of you have any thoughts on how best to move forward with either Bob's legacy or the CSD, please discuss them at the meeting and keep me informed. I don't feel like I know Carolyn well enough to approach her about any of this; perhaps one of you would be willing to help with that. > > Best wishes to all for a fruitful and fun meeting. > > David > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Fri Apr 11 18:42:55 2014 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 13:42:55 -0500 Subject: regrets and thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I don't know if Bob expressed such an interest, at least not to me, and possibly not to Carolyn either (she didn't mention it). I'd have to look into how we would go about submitting papers to these organizations for their archives. Any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated. Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 1:26 PM, David Costa wrote: > Did Bob ever express a preference as to where his papers should end up? I > would assume either the NAA or the APS would be best... > > Dave Costa > > > Hi David and all, > > Sorry to hear David that you won't be able to make it to the SCLC this > year. > > I know we have talked about doing a Festschrift in Bob's honor, and this > is certainly something we can discuss at the meeting. Hopefully our > organizers can set aside some time on the schedule so we can all > participate in this discussion. > > As for the CSD, I think it's a great idea to have it finalized and > published in some form, either electronically or in print, or both. > > As concerns Bob's unpublished papers and computer files, Carolyn, Bob's > wife, and I have been in touch fairly regularly. Even before Bob's death, > she said that she and Bob had discussed it and thought it would be best > that I come up to their house and "clean out" his garage full of files, > books, etc. Also, I plan to take a USB drive and download as much of his > computer files as possible, at least some of which I know pertain to Kaw. > I'll be happy to distribute whatever I find pertaining to other Siouan > languages to those of you who want it. I'm hoping to go up and do this in > the next couple of months, possibly in early June or so before it gets too > hot. I know Carolyn is thinking about selling the house and moving up to > be with family in Wisconsin, so this cleaning out will have to be done > fairly soon anyway. > > Anyway, I'll keep everyone posted as plans for these things become more > concrete. Things are a bit crazy for me right now as I work full-time for > the Kaw Nation and try to finish my dissertation without yet having another > committee member to substitute for Bob. I hope to defend in May, but I'm > still awaiting final word on a new committee member and date from my > advisor. > > Dave > > David Kaufman > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > > On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 12:27 PM, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > >> Hi, everyone, >> My family schedule for at least part of the summer has finally >> settled down, and I regret that it precludes me from attending the SCLC >> again this year. The earliest I could get to Madison would be >> mid-afternoon on Saturday, hardly the appropriate time for participating in >> the meeting. >> >> I am very much interested in what is decided about honoring Bob >> Rankin, however, and in what might be done to make his huge contribution to >> the history of Siouan and the structure of Dhegiah part of a permanent >> record. I know he has many papers that have never been published, as well >> as many that are published here and there in places we don't always know >> about. As early as 1984, at the workshop that launched the Comparative >> Dictionary project, I proposed a "collection of papers" volume that would >> be a place for his work (and others), but that has never materialized. >> Moreover, for the last few years Bob was the major player in the >> evolution of the Comparative Dictionary. As most of you know, Iren >> Hartmann at the MPI-Leipzig is working on creating a usable digital verson >> of the CSD. Of the original 5 participants (John Koontz, Wes Jones, Dick >> Carter, Rankin and me) in the project, I guess I'm the only one who is >> still interested and available, so I'm going to work with Iren to see if >> that can't be finalized and formalized. There is quite a bit of urgency >> here, because as many of you know, the structure of the MPI in Leipzig will >> change dramatically in May of 2015, and they will likely no longer be >> interested in supporting Iren's work. >> >> If any of you have any thoughts on how best to move forward with >> either Bob's legacy or the CSD, please discuss them at the meeting and keep >> me informed. I don't feel like I know Carolyn well enough to approach her >> about any of this; perhaps one of you would be willing to help with that. >> >> Best wishes to all for a fruitful and fun meeting. >> >> David >> >> David S. Rood >> Dept. of Linguistics >> Univ. of Colorado >> 295 UCB >> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >> USA >> rood at colorado.edu >> > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Apr 11 18:59:20 2014 From: pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET (David Costa) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 11:59:20 -0700 Subject: regrets and thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dave, let me look into this and I’ll get back to you. Dave C. > I don't know if Bob expressed such an interest, at least not to me, and possibly not to Carolyn either (she didn't mention it). I'd have to look into how we would go about submitting papers to these organizations for their archives. Any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated. > > Dave > > David Kaufman > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > > On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 1:26 PM, David Costa wrote: > Did Bob ever express a preference as to where his papers should end up? I would assume either the NAA or the APS would be best… > > Dave Costa > > >> Hi David and all, >> >> Sorry to hear David that you won't be able to make it to the SCLC this year. >> >> I know we have talked about doing a Festschrift in Bob's honor, and this is certainly something we can discuss at the meeting. Hopefully our organizers can set aside some time on the schedule so we can all participate in this discussion. >> >> As for the CSD, I think it's a great idea to have it finalized and published in some form, either electronically or in print, or both. >> >> As concerns Bob's unpublished papers and computer files, Carolyn, Bob's wife, and I have been in touch fairly regularly. Even before Bob's death, she said that she and Bob had discussed it and thought it would be best that I come up to their house and "clean out" his garage full of files, books, etc. Also, I plan to take a USB drive and download as much of his computer files as possible, at least some of which I know pertain to Kaw. I'll be happy to distribute whatever I find pertaining to other Siouan languages to those of you who want it. I'm hoping to go up and do this in the next couple of months, possibly in early June or so before it gets too hot. I know Carolyn is thinking about selling the house and moving up to be with family in Wisconsin, so this cleaning out will have to be done fairly soon anyway. >> >> Anyway, I'll keep everyone posted as plans for these things become more concrete. Things are a bit crazy for me right now as I work full-time for the Kaw Nation and try to finish my dissertation without yet having another committee member to substitute for Bob. I hope to defend in May, but I'm still awaiting final word on a new committee member and date from my advisor. >> >> Dave >> >> David Kaufman >> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 12:27 PM, ROOD DAVID S wrote: >> Hi, everyone, >> My family schedule for at least part of the summer has finally settled down, and I regret that it precludes me from attending the SCLC again this year. The earliest I could get to Madison would be mid-afternoon on Saturday, hardly the appropriate time for participating in the meeting. >> >> I am very much interested in what is decided about honoring Bob Rankin, however, and in what might be done to make his huge contribution to the history of Siouan and the structure of Dhegiah part of a permanent record. I know he has many papers that have never been published, as well as many that are published here and there in places we don't always know about. As early as 1984, at the workshop that launched the Comparative Dictionary project, I proposed a "collection of papers" volume that would be a place for his work (and others), but that has never materialized. >> Moreover, for the last few years Bob was the major player in the evolution of the Comparative Dictionary. As most of you know, Iren Hartmann at the MPI-Leipzig is working on creating a usable digital verson of the CSD. Of the original 5 participants (John Koontz, Wes Jones, Dick Carter, Rankin and me) in the project, I guess I'm the only one who is still interested and available, so I'm going to work with Iren to see if that can't be finalized and formalized. There is quite a bit of urgency here, because as many of you know, the structure of the MPI in Leipzig will change dramatically in May of 2015, and they will likely no longer be interested in supporting Iren's work. >> >> If any of you have any thoughts on how best to move forward with either Bob's legacy or the CSD, please discuss them at the meeting and keep me informed. I don't feel like I know Carolyn well enough to approach her about any of this; perhaps one of you would be willing to help with that. >> >> Best wishes to all for a fruitful and fun meeting. >> >> David >> >> David S. Rood >> Dept. of Linguistics >> Univ. of Colorado >> 295 UCB >> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >> USA >> rood at colorado.edu >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mary.marino at USASK.CA Fri Apr 11 19:28:44 2014 From: mary.marino at USASK.CA (Mary C Marino) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 13:28:44 -0600 Subject: regrets and thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Did Bob leave any instructions about these matters in his Will? Mary On 11/04/2014 12:12 PM, David Kaufman wrote: > Hi David and all, > > Sorry to hear David that you won't be able to make it to the SCLC this > year. > > I know we have talked about doing a Festschrift in Bob's honor, and > this is certainly something we can discuss at the meeting. Hopefully > our organizers can set aside some time on the schedule so we can all > participate in this discussion. > > As for the CSD, I think it's a great idea to have it finalized and > published in some form, either electronically or in print, or both. > > As concerns Bob's unpublished papers and computer files, Carolyn, > Bob's wife, and I have been in touch fairly regularly. Even before > Bob's death, she said that she and Bob had discussed it and thought it > would be best that I come up to their house and "clean out" his garage > full of files, books, etc. Also, I plan to take a USB drive and > download as much of his computer files as possible, at least some of > which I know pertain to Kaw. I'll be happy to distribute whatever I > find pertaining to other Siouan languages to those of you who want it. > I'm hoping to go up and do this in the next couple of months, > possibly in early June or so before it gets too hot. I know Carolyn > is thinking about selling the house and moving up to be with family in > Wisconsin, so this cleaning out will have to be done fairly soon anyway. > > Anyway, I'll keep everyone posted as plans for these things become > more concrete. Things are a bit crazy for me right now as I work > full-time for the Kaw Nation and try to finish my dissertation without > yet having another committee member to substitute for Bob. I hope to > defend in May, but I'm still awaiting final word on a new committee > member and date from my advisor. > > Dave > > David Kaufman > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > > On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 12:27 PM, ROOD DAVID S > > wrote: > > Hi, everyone, > My family schedule for at least part of the summer has > finally settled down, and I regret that it precludes me from > attending the SCLC again this year. The earliest I could get to > Madison would be mid-afternoon on Saturday, hardly the appropriate > time for participating in the meeting. > > I am very much interested in what is decided about > honoring Bob Rankin, however, and in what might be done to make > his huge contribution to the history of Siouan and the structure > of Dhegiah part of a permanent record. I know he has many papers > that have never been published, as well as many that are published > here and there in places we don't always know about. As early as > 1984, at the workshop that launched the Comparative Dictionary > project, I proposed a "collection of papers" volume that would be > a place for his work (and others), but that has never materialized. > Moreover, for the last few years Bob was the major player > in the evolution of the Comparative Dictionary. As most of you > know, Iren Hartmann at the MPI-Leipzig is working on creating a > usable digital verson of the CSD. Of the original 5 participants > (John Koontz, Wes Jones, Dick Carter, Rankin and me) in the > project, I guess I'm the only one who is still interested and > available, so I'm going to work with Iren to see if that can't be > finalized and formalized. There is quite a bit of urgency here, > because as many of you know, the structure of the MPI in Leipzig > will change dramatically in May of 2015, and they will likely no > longer be interested in supporting Iren's work. > > If any of you have any thoughts on how best to move > forward with either Bob's legacy or the CSD, please discuss them > at the meeting and keep me informed. I don't feel like I know > Carolyn well enough to approach her about any of this; perhaps one > of you would be willing to help with that. > > Best wishes to all for a fruitful and fun meeting. > > David > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Fri Apr 11 19:36:57 2014 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 14:36:57 -0500 Subject: regrets and thoughts In-Reply-To: <5348426C.8020207@usask.ca> Message-ID: Mary, It's my understanding that Bob did not leave a will. Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 2:28 PM, Mary C Marino wrote: > Did Bob leave any instructions about these matters in his Will? > > Mary > > > > On 11/04/2014 12:12 PM, David Kaufman wrote: > > Hi David and all, > > Sorry to hear David that you won't be able to make it to the SCLC this > year. > > I know we have talked about doing a Festschrift in Bob's honor, and this > is certainly something we can discuss at the meeting. Hopefully our > organizers can set aside some time on the schedule so we can all > participate in this discussion. > > As for the CSD, I think it's a great idea to have it finalized and > published in some form, either electronically or in print, or both. > > As concerns Bob's unpublished papers and computer files, Carolyn, Bob's > wife, and I have been in touch fairly regularly. Even before Bob's death, > she said that she and Bob had discussed it and thought it would be best > that I come up to their house and "clean out" his garage full of files, > books, etc. Also, I plan to take a USB drive and download as much of his > computer files as possible, at least some of which I know pertain to Kaw. > I'll be happy to distribute whatever I find pertaining to other Siouan > languages to those of you who want it. I'm hoping to go up and do this in > the next couple of months, possibly in early June or so before it gets too > hot. I know Carolyn is thinking about selling the house and moving up to > be with family in Wisconsin, so this cleaning out will have to be done > fairly soon anyway. > > Anyway, I'll keep everyone posted as plans for these things become more > concrete. Things are a bit crazy for me right now as I work full-time for > the Kaw Nation and try to finish my dissertation without yet having another > committee member to substitute for Bob. I hope to defend in May, but I'm > still awaiting final word on a new committee member and date from my > advisor. > > Dave > > David Kaufman > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > > On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 12:27 PM, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > >> Hi, everyone, >> My family schedule for at least part of the summer has finally >> settled down, and I regret that it precludes me from attending the SCLC >> again this year. The earliest I could get to Madison would be >> mid-afternoon on Saturday, hardly the appropriate time for participating in >> the meeting. >> >> I am very much interested in what is decided about honoring Bob >> Rankin, however, and in what might be done to make his huge contribution to >> the history of Siouan and the structure of Dhegiah part of a permanent >> record. I know he has many papers that have never been published, as well >> as many that are published here and there in places we don't always know >> about. As early as 1984, at the workshop that launched the Comparative >> Dictionary project, I proposed a "collection of papers" volume that would >> be a place for his work (and others), but that has never materialized. >> Moreover, for the last few years Bob was the major player in the >> evolution of the Comparative Dictionary. As most of you know, Iren >> Hartmann at the MPI-Leipzig is working on creating a usable digital verson >> of the CSD. Of the original 5 participants (John Koontz, Wes Jones, Dick >> Carter, Rankin and me) in the project, I guess I'm the only one who is >> still interested and available, so I'm going to work with Iren to see if >> that can't be finalized and formalized. There is quite a bit of urgency >> here, because as many of you know, the structure of the MPI in Leipzig will >> change dramatically in May of 2015, and they will likely no longer be >> interested in supporting Iren's work. >> >> If any of you have any thoughts on how best to move forward with >> either Bob's legacy or the CSD, please discuss them at the meeting and keep >> me informed. I don't feel like I know Carolyn well enough to approach her >> about any of this; perhaps one of you would be willing to help with that. >> >> Best wishes to all for a fruitful and fun meeting. >> >> David >> >> David S. Rood >> Dept. of Linguistics >> Univ. of Colorado >> 295 UCB >> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >> USA >> rood at colorado.edu >> > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mary.marino at USASK.CA Fri Apr 11 20:20:05 2014 From: mary.marino at USASK.CA (Mary C Marino) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 14:20:05 -0600 Subject: regrets and thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It happens; a will does not necessarily make things any easier for the survivors. Could the university provide you with some space for storage of the materials, where you (and maybe others) could work on them? Mary On 11/04/2014 1:36 PM, David Kaufman wrote: > Mary, > > It's my understanding that Bob did not leave a will. > > Dave > > David Kaufman > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > > On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 2:28 PM, Mary C Marino > wrote: > > Did Bob leave any instructions about these matters in his Will? > > Mary > > > > On 11/04/2014 12:12 PM, David Kaufman wrote: >> Hi David and all, >> >> Sorry to hear David that you won't be able to make it to the SCLC >> this year. >> >> I know we have talked about doing a Festschrift in Bob's honor, >> and this is certainly something we can discuss at the meeting. >> Hopefully our organizers can set aside some time on the schedule >> so we can all participate in this discussion. >> >> As for the CSD, I think it's a great idea to have it finalized >> and published in some form, either electronically or in print, or >> both. >> >> As concerns Bob's unpublished papers and computer files, Carolyn, >> Bob's wife, and I have been in touch fairly regularly. Even >> before Bob's death, she said that she and Bob had discussed it >> and thought it would be best that I come up to their house and >> "clean out" his garage full of files, books, etc. Also, I plan >> to take a USB drive and download as much of his computer files as >> possible, at least some of which I know pertain to Kaw. I'll be >> happy to distribute whatever I find pertaining to other Siouan >> languages to those of you who want it. I'm hoping to go up and >> do this in the next couple of months, possibly in early June or >> so before it gets too hot. I know Carolyn is thinking about >> selling the house and moving up to be with family in Wisconsin, >> so this cleaning out will have to be done fairly soon anyway. >> >> Anyway, I'll keep everyone posted as plans for these things >> become more concrete. Things are a bit crazy for me right now as >> I work full-time for the Kaw Nation and try to finish my >> dissertation without yet having another committee member to >> substitute for Bob. I hope to defend in May, but I'm still >> awaiting final word on a new committee member and date from my >> advisor. >> >> Dave >> >> David Kaufman >> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 12:27 PM, ROOD DAVID S >> > wrote: >> >> Hi, everyone, >> My family schedule for at least part of the summer >> has finally settled down, and I regret that it precludes me >> from attending the SCLC again this year. The earliest I >> could get to Madison would be mid-afternoon on Saturday, >> hardly the appropriate time for participating in the meeting. >> >> I am very much interested in what is decided about >> honoring Bob Rankin, however, and in what might be done to >> make his huge contribution to the history of Siouan and the >> structure of Dhegiah part of a permanent record. I know he >> has many papers that have never been published, as well as >> many that are published here and there in places we don't >> always know about. As early as 1984, at the workshop that >> launched the Comparative Dictionary project, I proposed a >> "collection of papers" volume that would be a place for his >> work (and others), but that has never materialized. >> Moreover, for the last few years Bob was the major >> player in the evolution of the Comparative Dictionary. As >> most of you know, Iren Hartmann at the MPI-Leipzig is working >> on creating a usable digital verson of the CSD. Of the >> original 5 participants (John Koontz, Wes Jones, Dick Carter, >> Rankin and me) in the project, I guess I'm the only one who >> is still interested and available, so I'm going to work with >> Iren to see if that can't be finalized and formalized. There >> is quite a bit of urgency here, because as many of you know, >> the structure of the MPI in Leipzig will change dramatically >> in May of 2015, and they will likely no longer be interested >> in supporting Iren's work. >> >> If any of you have any thoughts on how best to move >> forward with either Bob's legacy or the CSD, please discuss >> them at the meeting and keep me informed. I don't feel like >> I know Carolyn well enough to approach her about any of this; >> perhaps one of you would be willing to help with that. >> >> Best wishes to all for a fruitful and fun meeting. >> >> David >> >> David S. Rood >> Dept. of Linguistics >> Univ. of Colorado >> 295 UCB >> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >> USA >> rood at colorado.edu >> >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rgraczyk at AOL.COM Fri Apr 11 20:37:48 2014 From: rgraczyk at AOL.COM (Randy Graczyk) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 16:37:48 -0400 Subject: regrets and thoughts In-Reply-To: <53484E75.6070108@usask.ca> Message-ID: I just looked through my files, and I have 26 papers by Bob Rankin. There are undoubtedly some that I don't have. I know some of these have been published (often in out-of-the-way journals), but many have not. All of them are worth passing on to future generations of Siouanists. Randy -----Original Message----- From: Mary C Marino To: SIOUAN Sent: Fri, Apr 11, 2014 2:20 pm Subject: Re: regrets and thoughts It happens; a will does not necessarily make things any easier for the survivors. Could the university provide you with some space for storage of the materials, where you (and maybe others) could work on them? Mary On 11/04/2014 1:36 PM, David Kaufman wrote: Mary, It's my understanding that Bob did not leave a will. Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 2:28 PM, Mary C Marino wrote: Did Bob leave any instructions about these matters in his Will? Mary On 11/04/2014 12:12 PM, David Kaufman wrote: Hi David and all, Sorry to hear David that you won't be able to make it to the SCLC this year. I know we have talked about doing a Festschrift in Bob's honor, and this is certainly something we can discuss at the meeting. Hopefully our organizers can set aside some time on the schedule so we can all participate in this discussion. As for the CSD, I think it's a great idea to have it finalized and published in some form, either electronically or in print, or both. As concerns Bob's unpublished papers and computer files, Carolyn, Bob's wife, and I have been in touch fairly regularly. Even before Bob's death, she said that she and Bob had discussed it and thought it would be best that I come up to their house and "clean out" his garage full of files, books, etc. Also, I plan to take a USB drive and download as much of his computer files as possible, at least some of which I know pertain to Kaw. I'll be happy to distribute whatever I find pertaining to other Siouan languages to those of you who want it. I'm hoping to go up and do this in the next couple of months, possibly in early June or so before it gets too hot. I know Carolyn is thinking about selling the house and moving up to be with family in Wisconsin, so this cleaning out will have to be done fairly soon anyway. Anyway, I'll keep everyone posted as plans for these things become more concrete. Things are a bit crazy for me right now as I work full-time for the Kaw Nation and try to finish my dissertation without yet having another committee member to substitute for Bob. I hope to defend in May, but I'm still awaiting final word on a new committee member and date from my advisor. Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 12:27 PM, ROOD DAVID S wrote: Hi, everyone, My family schedule for at least part of the summer has finally settled down, and I regret that it precludes me from attending the SCLC again this year. The earliest I could get to Madison would be mid-afternoon on Saturday, hardly the appropriate time for participating in the meeting. I am very much interested in what is decided about honoring Bob Rankin, however, and in what might be done to make his huge contribution to the history of Siouan and the structure of Dhegiah part of a permanent record. I know he has many papers that have never been published, as well as many that are published here and there in places we don't always know about. As early as 1984, at the workshop that launched the Comparative Dictionary project, I proposed a "collection of papers" volume that would be a place for his work (and others), but that has never materialized. Moreover, for the last few years Bob was the major player in the evolution of the Comparative Dictionary. As most of you know, Iren Hartmann at the MPI-Leipzig is working on creating a usable digital verson of the CSD. Of the original 5 participants (John Koontz, Wes Jones, Dick Carter, Rankin and me) in the project, I guess I'm the only one who is still interested and available, so I'm going to work with Iren to see if that can't be finalized and formalized. There is quite a bit of urgency here, because as many of you know, the structure of the MPI in Leipzig will change dramatically in May of 2015, and they will likely no longer be interested in supporting Iren's work. If any of you have any thoughts on how best to move forward with either Bob's legacy or the CSD, please discuss them at the meeting and keep me informed. I don't feel like I know Carolyn well enough to approach her about any of this; perhaps one of you would be willing to help with that. Best wishes to all for a fruitful and fun meeting. David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aigotm at YAHOO.COM Fri Apr 11 20:40:17 2014 From: aigotm at YAHOO.COM (aigotm) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 15:40:17 -0500 Subject: regrets and thoughts Message-ID: I am new to the Siouan community, but I am more than happy to help in any way I can. I am located in Chicago at DePaul University.  Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device -------- Original message -------- From: Mary C Marino Date:04/11/2014 3:20 PM (GMT-06:00) To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: regrets and thoughts It happens;  a will does not necessarily make things any easier for the survivors.  Could the university provide you with some space for storage of the materials, where you (and maybe others) could work on them?  Mary On 11/04/2014 1:36 PM, David Kaufman wrote: Mary, It's my understanding that Bob did not leave a will. Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 2:28 PM, Mary C Marino wrote: Did Bob leave any instructions about these matters in his Will? Mary On 11/04/2014 12:12 PM, David Kaufman wrote: Hi David and all, Sorry to hear David that you won't be able to make it to the SCLC this year. I know we have talked about doing a Festschrift in Bob's honor, and this is certainly something we can discuss at the meeting. Hopefully our organizers can set aside some time on the schedule so we can all participate in this discussion. As for the CSD, I think it's a great idea to have it finalized and published in some form, either electronically or in print, or both. As concerns Bob's unpublished papers and computer files, Carolyn, Bob's wife, and I have been in touch fairly regularly. Even before Bob's death, she said that she and Bob had discussed it and thought it would be best that I come up to their house and "clean out" his garage full of files, books, etc. Also, I plan to take a USB drive and download as much of his computer files as possible, at least some of which I know pertain to Kaw. I'll be happy to distribute whatever I find pertaining to other Siouan languages to those of you who want it. I'm hoping to go up and do this in the next couple of months, possibly in early June or so before it gets too hot. I know Carolyn is thinking about selling the house and moving up to be with family in Wisconsin, so this cleaning out will have to be done fairly soon anyway. Anyway, I'll keep everyone posted as plans for these things become more concrete. Things are a bit crazy for me right now as I work full-time for the Kaw Nation and try to finish my dissertation without yet having another committee member to substitute for Bob. I hope to defend in May, but I'm still awaiting final word on a new committee member and date from my advisor. Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 12:27 PM, ROOD DAVID S wrote: Hi, everyone,   My family schedule for at least part of the summer has finally settled down, and I regret that it precludes me from attending the SCLC again this year. The earliest I could get to Madison would be mid-afternoon on Saturday, hardly the appropriate time for participating in the meeting.   I am very much interested in what is decided about honoring Bob Rankin, however, and in what might be done to make his huge contribution to the history of Siouan and the structure of Dhegiah part of a permanent record. I know he has many papers that have never been published, as well as many that are published here and there in places we don't always know about. As early as 1984, at the workshop that launched the Comparative Dictionary project, I proposed a "collection of papers" volume that would be a place for his work (and others), but that has never materialized.   Moreover, for the last few years Bob was the major player in the evolution of the Comparative Dictionary. As most of you know, Iren Hartmann at the MPI-Leipzig is working on creating a usable digital verson of the CSD. Of the original 5 participants (John Koontz, Wes Jones, Dick Carter, Rankin and me) in the project, I guess I'm the only one who is still interested and available, so I'm going to work with Iren to see if that can't be finalized and formalized. There is quite a bit of urgency here, because as many of you know, the structure of the MPI in Leipzig will change dramatically in May of 2015, and they will likely no longer be interested in supporting Iren's work.   If any of you have any thoughts on how best to move forward with either Bob's legacy or the CSD, please discuss them at the meeting and keep me informed. I don't feel like I know Carolyn well enough to approach her about any of this; perhaps one of you would be willing to help with that.   Best wishes to all for a fruitful and fun meeting.   David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU Fri Apr 11 21:48:37 2014 From: jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU (Mcbride, Justin) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 16:48:37 -0500 Subject: Alice translation In-Reply-To: <09c87c99df9342b5a404fd254e5b52c2@CO1PR01MB127.prod.exchangelabs.com> Message-ID: Interesting discussion. I do know that Dorsey, who began his linguistic work as a Christian missionary (to the Poncas?), started an OP translation of the Gospel According to St. Mark, which appears in the microfilm reels that Mark photographed up at the National Anthropological Archives. I can't recall how far he got with it, but I remember seeing it. I also know that at my time at the Kaw Nation, a handful of people did ask me about the availability of Bible translations or portions and were disappointed to know that there were none beyond the Lord's Prayer. There was enough interest that we finally made the Lord's Prayer as told by Maude Rowe available online. Furthermore, having attended one of Father Graczyk's masses at Pryor, which was at least partially in Crow, and having been numerous times to the Hominy Friends Meeting where Osage is used on a weekly basis, I would suspect that certain Siouan language Bible translations would very much be welcome additions to those congregations. So, at least from my experience, I would respectfully suggest that there is some degree of interest for such work in these communities. Still, I would agree that I've never personally heard requests for translations of the Koran, Shakespeare, or Carroll. Frankly, I would guess that there's not enough Siouan language literacy or demand for written materials outside of class or church organizations in many of the Southern communities in Oklahoma to warrant much time spent translating these sorts of extended non-Native literary works when, as Jimm rightly says, there are probably far more pressing matters. The tribes themselves have their own stories, after all. Peace, -Justin On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 11:19 AM, De Reuse, Willem wrote: > Interesting discussion. I did not know about Alice in Wonderland. As > someone who works on Apache, I get a lot of requests for translations, as > Apache is one of these "iconic" Native American languages. > > > One has to pick and choose, if it is short and culturally appropriate, I > generally agree to it. I remember once translating a short Jewish prayer > into Apache. The Apaches liked it. After all Apaches, like Jews, know > something about wandering about in the desert. > > > Then other requests have to be nixed, like the set of "Spring Break" > phrases I once was asked to translate, things like "I am so drunk", and > "where is the bathroom?". > > > Portions of the Bible have more appeal that the other four works. I add > a link to a nice example. Thanks Jimm for this. > > > > http://iowayotoelang.nativeweb.org/pdf/christmasstory.pdf > > > Another great Bible story that has been used for linguistic work is the > Parable of Prodigal son, which has been recorded in many more versions > than the New Testament itself, and probably second in number of > translations to the Lord's Prayer. One does not have to be a Christian to > appreciate this parable is an awfully good story, of almost universal > appeal, except maybe to vegans! > > > Willem > ------------------------------ > *From:* Siouan Linguistics on behalf of Jimm > Goodtracks > *Sent:* Friday, April 11, 2014 10:27 AM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Re: Alice translation > > Dear Erik Hanson: > > I cannot refute what you say below in regard to your statement that Alice > in Wonderland, the Bible, Koran and Shakespeare are the most translated and > published in various languages of the world. If you say so, I will take it > as so on face value. However, I assure you that in the last 115 years here > in Indian Country, USA, there has been no interest in these four works of > literature on the part of an member of the indigenous communities of the > Northern and Southern Plains that represent the Siouan, Caddoan and other > indigenous languages families. > > As such, for my part, I have not available time to spend in satisfying > someone’s whims to translate some phrase or work of no consequence to the > language communities just for the hell of it, i.e., the sake of making a > translation. Such tasks can be given to the idle hands of someone who has > nothing better to do with their time. > > Sincerely, > Jimm G. Goodtracks > Jimm G. Goodtracks > Báxoje Jiwére Language Project > PO Box 55 > Tecumseh, KS 66542 > > > Ukínadheda wawáŋarana, ich^é nahá, injé etáwe waróxiñeda adáñešdan – > wógiñi kigróšige íthgare ke. > “In the middle of resisting, the language got caught, only showing her > face in ceremony, like she’s ashamed of her scars.” > (www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FUgDutdauQ&feature=share > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Erik Hanson > Sent: Friday, April 11, 2014 9:54 AM > To: Jimm Goodtracks > Subject: Alice translation > > Hello: > > "Alice" is one of the standards that translators deal with and think > about. It's the fourth most quoted work in history (after the Bible, > Koran, and the complete works of Shakespeare) and the only one of the four > both secular and of a manageable size. It has already been translated and > published into 125 languages, back to the 1860s and probably a few more > unpublished. There is no insult to be read into a desire for a short bit, > at least, to be rendered into any/every language. I do question the merits > of that particular bit. > > Regards, Erik > > > Sent from my iPhone, please forgive typos and brevity. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lhf at UNL.EDU Fri Apr 11 22:33:29 2014 From: lhf at UNL.EDU (Loren Frerichs) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 22:33:29 +0000 Subject: FW: UNL listserv subscribers impacted by yahoo email change In-Reply-To: <201404112133.s3BLXqgY008712@listserv.unl.edu> Message-ID: Response to Yahoo dmarc policy: ________________________________________ From: listserv admin Sent: Friday, April 11, 2014 16:33 To: Loren Frerichs Subject: UNL listserv subscribers impacted by yahoo email change A recent change implemented by Yahoo to combat email spoofing has caused issues with mailing lists on listserv.unl.edu. The new policy implemented by Yahoo requires messages from the @yahoo.com domain to originate from a yahoo.com server. When a user from Yahoo emails a list, the message gets relayed by listserv.unl.edu. This causes it to be rejected by many of the recipients. The rejection goes to listserv.unl.edu, which causes them to be unsubscribed from that list. This affects every email list on the Internet that receives email from an @yahoo.com address. The solution that most have implemented is to reject messages from the @yahoo.com domain so their list subscribers don't get automatically dropped. We have taken immediate action by implementing this as of 4:10 p.m. 4/11/2014. As more information becomes available we will provide updates. You are receiving this message because your address is recorded as one of the owners of each of the following lists: ... From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Fri Apr 11 22:39:05 2014 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 22:39:05 +0000 Subject: Listserv issue involving yahoo addresses Message-ID: Hello all, A problem has cropped up this week that affects the functionality of the Siouan listserv, along with listservs throughout the Internet. It seems that Yahoo has recently implemented a non-orthodox protocol to prevent email spoofing by requiring that messages coming from Yahoo addresses must also come from a Yahoo server. This breaks the functionality of relaying, which is required for a listserv to operate. So if I post on the listserv from my Yahoo account, the listserv receives my message and relays it to your account. It goes to your Inbox with my Yahoo address, but the point of origination is the listserv server, which is not Yahoo. If you are unfortunate enough to have a Yahoo address as well, then your Yahoo server decides that I must be a bad guy, since my Yahoo-addressed message is not coming from a Yahoo server. To protect you, it rejects the message. This bounces it back to the listserv server, which concludes that your email account is an invalid address. After about four days of this, it quietly unsubscribes you from the list. So Yahoo's new security functionality acts to kill Yahoo accounts off of listservs. (Or at least, that's the way I fuzzily understand it. Loren will undoubtedly correct me if I'm wrong.) Below is the statement sent out this afternoon by our listserv system administrator. The triage solution is for the listserv to reject any posts coming from Yahoo email addresses. That way, Yahoo users will not be unsubscribed and will get the same messages everyone else gets. But until things get worked out between Yahoo and listservs, they will not be able to post to the list. Thanks, Rory ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ A recent change implemented by Yahoo to combat email spoofing has caused issues with mailing lists on listserv.unl.edu. The new policy implemented by Yahoo requires messages from the @yahoo.com domain to originate from a yahoo.com server. When a user from Yahoo emails a list, the message gets relayed by listserv.unl.edu. This causes it to be rejected by many of the recipients. The rejection goes to listserv.unl.edu, which causes them to be unsubscribed from that list. This affects every email list on the Internet that receives email from an @yahoo.com address. The solution that most have implemented is to reject messages from the @yahoo.com domain so their list subscribers don't get automatically dropped. We have taken immediate action by implementing this as of 4:10 p.m. 4/11/2014. As more information becomes available we will provide updates. You are receiving this message because your address (rlarson1 at unl.edu) is recorded as one of the owners of each of the following lists: siouan Thank you, Jim Liebgott UNL Listserv Administrator -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Sat Apr 12 01:16:04 2014 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 01:16:04 +0000 Subject: Alice translation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The discussion is interesting, but I think much of it is missing the point. We’re assuming that the translation is for the purpose of putting substantive material into a Siouan language. At this stage, any such enterprise is purely for vanity, since there are hardly any monolingual speakers left, hungry for the message of the Bible or Shakespeare or whatever, if only it could be put into their Siouan native tongue. Even if there were, I tend to share Jimm’s nativist attitude. Rather than inject a Western cultural corpus into Siouan, I would much rather hear and record Native stories and experience in their own native tongue. Insofar as this is still possible, I think this is about the most important thing we can be doing. But I suspect that the quote requested is not about the literary message, whether it came from “Alice” or anywhere else. Rather, we are being challenged to analyze our languages’ grammar. It is not about Alice in Wonderland. It is about how the language goes about communicating elements of standard experience that we too easily overlook as we compile our word lists. Alice was a Victorian-age English girl. When she fell down the rabbit hole and sampled the mushrooms, she said: “Curiouser and curiouser.” A modern day American girl might communicate the same message with the formula: “Well, this is really getting weird.” Here, the same substantive message can be communicated at least two different ways in the same language without using any of the same words or grammatical devices. In the mouths of fluent speakers, Siouan languages most likely had ways of expressing this same message. It is not culturally specific; anybody, anywhere, might have occasion to utter it. Lexically, we might want to check to see if we have one or more words meaning “curious”, in the sense of ‘strange’, ‘odd’, ‘weird’, or ‘contrary to expectations’. If not, some word in the language probably got overlooked, and if we still have speakers we should search for it. At the syntactic level, we should study how the language deals with a quality steadily increasing or decreasing. It doesn’t have to be strangeness. It could just as well be heat. At the beginning of the week, it was 20 degrees Fahrenheit out. Three days ago it was 50 degrees. Yesterday it was 70, and today it is 90. You are a native Siouan speaker, living 200 years ago, and you want to comment on this phenomenon. How do you say it? In English, we would say: “It’s getting hotter and hotter.” But the Siouan languages didn’t have those English devices. What devices did they have to express this sort of idea? If we don’t know what those devices were, then we don’t know the languages we are studying and trying to preserve. As I understand, the person asking for the translation is a linguist who is not just asking for a translation, but also a morpheme by morpheme analysis of it. Presumably he is doing a wide survey comparison of languages and the devices they use to express this thought. Certainly, we may have important things we need to be doing, and may not choose to volunteer an answer. But let’s not disparage the question or the questioner. I think the question is serious, and that making the effort to try to answer it may help us to improve our own game as well. Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mcbride, Justin Sent: Friday, April 11, 2014 4:49 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: Alice translation Interesting discussion. I do know that Dorsey, who began his linguistic work as a Christian missionary (to the Poncas?), started an OP translation of the Gospel According to St. Mark, which appears in the microfilm reels that Mark photographed up at the National Anthropological Archives. I can't recall how far he got with it, but I remember seeing it. I also know that at my time at the Kaw Nation, a handful of people did ask me about the availability of Bible translations or portions and were disappointed to know that there were none beyond the Lord's Prayer. There was enough interest that we finally made the Lord's Prayer as told by Maude Rowe available online. Furthermore, having attended one of Father Graczyk's masses at Pryor, which was at least partially in Crow, and having been numerous times to the Hominy Friends Meeting where Osage is used on a weekly basis, I would suspect that certain Siouan language Bible translations would very much be welcome additions to those congregations. So, at least from my experience, I would respectfully suggest that there is some degree of interest for such work in these communities. Still, I would agree that I've never personally heard requests for translations of the Koran, Shakespeare, or Carroll. Frankly, I would guess that there's not enough Siouan language literacy or demand for written materials outside of class or church organizations in many of the Southern communities in Oklahoma to warrant much time spent translating these sorts of extended non-Native literary works when, as Jimm rightly says, there are probably far more pressing matters. The tribes themselves have their own stories, after all. Peace, -Justin On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 11:19 AM, De Reuse, Willem > wrote: Interesting discussion. I did not know about Alice in Wonderland. As someone who works on Apache, I get a lot of requests for translations, as Apache is one of these "iconic" Native American languages. One has to pick and choose, if it is short and culturally appropriate, I generally agree to it. I remember once translating a short Jewish prayer into Apache. The Apaches liked it. After all Apaches, like Jews, know something about wandering about in the desert. Then other requests have to be nixed, like the set of "Spring Break" phrases I once was asked to translate, things like "I am so drunk", and "where is the bathroom?". Portions of the Bible have more appeal that the other four works. I add a link to a nice example. Thanks Jimm for this. http://iowayotoelang.nativeweb.org/pdf/christmasstory.pdf Another great Bible story that has been used for linguistic work is the Parable of Prodigal son, which has been recorded in many more versions than the New Testament itself, and probably second in number of translations to the Lord's Prayer. One does not have to be a Christian to appreciate this parable is an awfully good story, of almost universal appeal, except maybe to vegans! Willem ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics > on behalf of Jimm Goodtracks > Sent: Friday, April 11, 2014 10:27 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Alice translation Dear Erik Hanson: I cannot refute what you say below in regard to your statement that Alice in Wonderland, the Bible, Koran and Shakespeare are the most translated and published in various languages of the world. If you say so, I will take it as so on face value. However, I assure you that in the last 115 years here in Indian Country, USA, there has been no interest in these four works of literature on the part of an member of the indigenous communities of the Northern and Southern Plains that represent the Siouan, Caddoan and other indigenous languages families. As such, for my part, I have not available time to spend in satisfying someone’s whims to translate some phrase or work of no consequence to the language communities just for the hell of it, i.e., the sake of making a translation. Such tasks can be given to the idle hands of someone who has nothing better to do with their time. Sincerely, Jimm G. Goodtracks Jimm G. Goodtracks Báxoje Jiwére Language Project PO Box 55 Tecumseh, KS 66542 Ukínadheda wawáŋarana, ich^é nahá, injé etáwe waróxiñeda adáñešdan – wógiñi kigróšige íthgare ke. “In the middle of resisting, the language got caught, only showing her face in ceremony, like she’s ashamed of her scars.” (www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FUgDutdauQ&feature=share -----Original Message----- From: Erik Hanson Sent: Friday, April 11, 2014 9:54 AM To: Jimm Goodtracks Subject: Alice translation Hello: "Alice" is one of the standards that translators deal with and think about. It's the fourth most quoted work in history (after the Bible, Koran, and the complete works of Shakespeare) and the only one of the four both secular and of a manageable size. It has already been translated and published into 125 languages, back to the 1860s and probably a few more unpublished. There is no insult to be read into a desire for a short bit, at least, to be rendered into any/every language. I do question the merits of that particular bit. Regards, Erik Sent from my iPhone, please forgive typos and brevity. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jfu at LAKHOTA.ORG Sat Apr 12 13:25:54 2014 From: jfu at LAKHOTA.ORG (Jan Ullrich) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 15:25:54 +0200 Subject: Alice translation In-Reply-To: <32e2f0cc555242688f8974ba4c0cfde4@DM2PR08MB525.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: >> Alice was a Victorian-age English girl. When she fell down the rabbit hole and sampled the mushrooms, she said: “Curiouser and curiouser.” A modern day American girl might communicate the same message with the formula: “Well, this is really getting weird.” Here, the same substantive message can be communicated at least two different ways in the same language without using any of the same words or grammatical devices. >>> In the mouths of fluent speakers, Siouan languages most likely had ways of expressing this same message. It is not culturally specific; anybody, anywhere, might have occasion to utter it. Lexically, we might want to check to see if we have one or more words meaning “curious”, in the sense of ‘strange’, ‘odd’, ‘weird’, or ‘contrary to expectations’. If not, some word in the language probably got overlooked, and if we still have speakers we should search for it. Rorry, I think that in the context you described the expression is to a high degree synonymous with the words “mysterious” and perhaps “magical”. So one of the possible free translations of the sentence into Lakota is this: “Sáŋm wakháŋ áye” (more / mysterious / it is becoming gradually or changing cumulatively). Jan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.rood at COLORADO.EDU Sat Apr 12 13:34:04 2014 From: david.rood at COLORADO.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 07:34:04 -0600 Subject: regrets and thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dave, if Carolyn is willing, I think it would be much better to try to arrange for a book or a series of journal publications (e.g. a special issue of IJAL) rather than an archive. Things get buried in archives. However, I know that a lot of what Bob circulated to us was stuff he considered unfinished. The extent to which anyone else would consider that work publishable needs to be discussed with Carolyn. Best, David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Fri, 11 Apr 2014, David Kaufman wrote: > I don't know if Bob expressed such an interest, at least not to me, and > possibly not to Carolyn either (she didn't mention it). I'd have to look > into how we would go about submitting papers to these organizations for > their archives. Any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated. > > Dave > > David Kaufman > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > > On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 1:26 PM, David Costa wrote: > >> Did Bob ever express a preference as to where his papers should end up? I >> would assume either the NAA or the APS would be best... >> >> Dave Costa >> >> >> Hi David and all, >> >> Sorry to hear David that you won't be able to make it to the SCLC this >> year. >> >> I know we have talked about doing a Festschrift in Bob's honor, and this >> is certainly something we can discuss at the meeting. Hopefully our >> organizers can set aside some time on the schedule so we can all >> participate in this discussion. >> >> As for the CSD, I think it's a great idea to have it finalized and >> published in some form, either electronically or in print, or both. >> >> As concerns Bob's unpublished papers and computer files, Carolyn, Bob's >> wife, and I have been in touch fairly regularly. Even before Bob's death, >> she said that she and Bob had discussed it and thought it would be best >> that I come up to their house and "clean out" his garage full of files, >> books, etc. Also, I plan to take a USB drive and download as much of his >> computer files as possible, at least some of which I know pertain to Kaw. >> I'll be happy to distribute whatever I find pertaining to other Siouan >> languages to those of you who want it. I'm hoping to go up and do this in >> the next couple of months, possibly in early June or so before it gets too >> hot. I know Carolyn is thinking about selling the house and moving up to >> be with family in Wisconsin, so this cleaning out will have to be done >> fairly soon anyway. >> >> Anyway, I'll keep everyone posted as plans for these things become more >> concrete. Things are a bit crazy for me right now as I work full-time for >> the Kaw Nation and try to finish my dissertation without yet having another >> committee member to substitute for Bob. I hope to defend in May, but I'm >> still awaiting final word on a new committee member and date from my >> advisor. >> >> Dave >> >> David Kaufman >> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 12:27 PM, ROOD DAVID S wrote: >> >>> Hi, everyone, >>> My family schedule for at least part of the summer has finally >>> settled down, and I regret that it precludes me from attending the SCLC >>> again this year. The earliest I could get to Madison would be >>> mid-afternoon on Saturday, hardly the appropriate time for participating in >>> the meeting. >>> >>> I am very much interested in what is decided about honoring Bob >>> Rankin, however, and in what might be done to make his huge contribution to >>> the history of Siouan and the structure of Dhegiah part of a permanent >>> record. I know he has many papers that have never been published, as well >>> as many that are published here and there in places we don't always know >>> about. As early as 1984, at the workshop that launched the Comparative >>> Dictionary project, I proposed a "collection of papers" volume that would >>> be a place for his work (and others), but that has never materialized. >>> Moreover, for the last few years Bob was the major player in the >>> evolution of the Comparative Dictionary. As most of you know, Iren >>> Hartmann at the MPI-Leipzig is working on creating a usable digital verson >>> of the CSD. Of the original 5 participants (John Koontz, Wes Jones, Dick >>> Carter, Rankin and me) in the project, I guess I'm the only one who is >>> still interested and available, so I'm going to work with Iren to see if >>> that can't be finalized and formalized. There is quite a bit of urgency >>> here, because as many of you know, the structure of the MPI in Leipzig will >>> change dramatically in May of 2015, and they will likely no longer be >>> interested in supporting Iren's work. >>> >>> If any of you have any thoughts on how best to move forward with >>> either Bob's legacy or the CSD, please discuss them at the meeting and keep >>> me informed. I don't feel like I know Carolyn well enough to approach her >>> about any of this; perhaps one of you would be willing to help with that. >>> >>> Best wishes to all for a fruitful and fun meeting. >>> >>> David >>> >>> David S. Rood >>> Dept. of Linguistics >>> Univ. of Colorado >>> 295 UCB >>> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >>> USA >>> rood at colorado.edu >>> >> >> >> > From david.rood at COLORADO.EDU Sat Apr 12 13:34:44 2014 From: david.rood at COLORADO.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 07:34:44 -0600 Subject: Alice translation In-Reply-To: <32e2f0cc555242688f8974ba4c0cfde4@DM2PR08MB525.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Rory, thank you for this extremely articulate essay. I agree with you absolutely. I got the same request for translation into Wichita and simply threw up my hands -- I have no idea how to begin to express this idea, but now you've got me thinking I should explore it. But maybe not right now. Best, David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Sat, 12 Apr 2014, Rory Larson wrote: > The discussion is interesting, but I think much of it is missing the point. We’re assuming that the translation is for the purpose of putting substantive material into a Siouan language. At this stage, any such enterprise is purely for vanity, since there are hardly any monolingual speakers left, hungry for the message of the Bible or Shakespeare or whatever, if only it could be put into their Siouan native tongue. Even if there were, I tend to share Jimm’s nativist attitude. Rather than inject a Western cultural corpus into Siouan, I would much rather hear and record Native stories and experience in their own native tongue. Insofar as this is still possible, I think this is about the most important thing we can be doing. > > But I suspect that the quote requested is not about the literary message, whether it came from “Alice” or anywhere else. Rather, we are being challenged to analyze our languages’ grammar. It is not about Alice in Wonderland. It is about how the language goes about communicating elements of standard experience that we too easily overlook as we compile our word lists. > > Alice was a Victorian-age English girl. When she fell down the rabbit hole and sampled the mushrooms, she said: “Curiouser and curiouser.” A modern day American girl might communicate the same message with the formula: “Well, this is really getting weird.” Here, the same substantive message can be communicated at least two different ways in the same language without using any of the same words or grammatical devices. > > In the mouths of fluent speakers, Siouan languages most likely had ways of expressing this same message. It is not culturally specific; anybody, anywhere, might have occasion to utter it. Lexically, we might want to check to see if we have one or more words meaning “curious”, in the sense of ‘strange’, ‘odd’, ‘weird’, or ‘contrary to expectations’. If not, some word in the language probably got overlooked, and if we still have speakers we should search for it. > > At the syntactic level, we should study how the language deals with a quality steadily increasing or decreasing. It doesn’t have to be strangeness. It could just as well be heat. At the beginning of the week, it was 20 degrees Fahrenheit out. Three days ago it was 50 degrees. Yesterday it was 70, and today it is 90. You are a native Siouan speaker, living 200 years ago, and you want to comment on this phenomenon. How do you say it? In English, we would say: “It’s getting hotter and hotter.” But the Siouan languages didn’t have those English devices. What devices did they have to express this sort of idea? If we don’t know what those devices were, then we don’t know the languages we are studying and trying to preserve. > > As I understand, the person asking for the translation is a linguist who is not just asking for a translation, but also a morpheme by morpheme analysis of it. Presumably he is doing a wide survey comparison of languages and the devices they use to express this thought. Certainly, we may have important things we need to be doing, and may not choose to volunteer an answer. But let’s not disparage the question or the questioner. I think the question is serious, and that making the effort to try to answer it may help us to improve our own game as well. > > Best, > Rory > > > > From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mcbride, Justin > Sent: Friday, April 11, 2014 4:49 PM > To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU > Subject: Re: Alice translation > > Interesting discussion. I do know that Dorsey, who began his linguistic work as a Christian missionary (to the Poncas?), started an OP translation of the Gospel According to St. Mark, which appears in the microfilm reels that Mark photographed up at the National Anthropological Archives. I can't recall how far he got with it, but I remember seeing it. I also know that at my time at the Kaw Nation, a handful of people did ask me about the availability of Bible translations or portions and were disappointed to know that there were none beyond the Lord's Prayer. There was enough interest that we finally made the Lord's Prayer as told by Maude Rowe available online. Furthermore, having attended one of Father Graczyk's masses at Pryor, which was at least partially in Crow, and having been numerous times to the Hominy Friends Meeting where Osage is used on a weekly basis, I would suspect that certain Siouan language Bible translations would very much be welcome additions to those congregations. So, at least from my experience, I would respectfully suggest that there is some degree of interest for such work in these communities. Still, I would agree that I've never personally heard requests for translations of the Koran, Shakespeare, or Carroll. Frankly, I would guess that there's not enough Siouan language literacy or demand for written materials outside of class or church organizations in many of the Southern communities in Oklahoma to warrant much time spent translating these sorts of extended non-Native literary works when, as Jimm rightly says, there are probably far more pressing matters. The tribes themselves have their own stories, after all. > > Peace, > -Justin > > On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 11:19 AM, De Reuse, Willem > wrote: > > Interesting discussion. I did not know about Alice in Wonderland. As someone who works on Apache, I get a lot of requests for translations, as Apache is one of these "iconic" Native American languages. > > > > One has to pick and choose, if it is short and culturally appropriate, I generally agree to it. I remember once translating a short Jewish prayer into Apache. The Apaches liked it. After all Apaches, like Jews, know something about wandering about in the desert. > > > > Then other requests have to be nixed, like the set of "Spring Break" phrases I once was asked to translate, things like "I am so drunk", and "where is the bathroom?". > > > > Portions of the Bible have more appeal that the other four works. I add a link to a nice example. Thanks Jimm for this. > > > > http://iowayotoelang.nativeweb.org/pdf/christmasstory.pdf > > > > Another great Bible story that has been used for linguistic work is the Parable of Prodigal son, which has been recorded in many more versions than the New Testament itself, and probably second in number of translations to the Lord's Prayer. One does not have to be a Christian to appreciate this parable is an awfully good story, of almost universal appeal, except maybe to vegans! > > > > Willem > > ________________________________ > From: Siouan Linguistics > on behalf of Jimm Goodtracks > > Sent: Friday, April 11, 2014 10:27 AM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Re: Alice translation > > Dear Erik Hanson: > > I cannot refute what you say below in regard to your statement that Alice in Wonderland, the Bible, Koran and Shakespeare are the most translated and published in various languages of the world. If you say so, I will take it as so on face value. However, I assure you that in the last 115 years here in Indian Country, USA, there has been no interest in these four works of literature on the part of an member of the indigenous communities of the Northern and Southern Plains that represent the Siouan, Caddoan and other indigenous languages families. > > As such, for my part, I have not available time to spend in satisfying someone’s whims to translate some phrase or work of no consequence to the language communities just for the hell of it, i.e., the sake of making a translation. Such tasks can be given to the idle hands of someone who has nothing better to do with their time. > > Sincerely, > Jimm G. Goodtracks > Jimm G. Goodtracks > Báxoje Jiwére Language Project > PO Box 55 > Tecumseh, KS 66542 > > > Ukínadheda wawáŋarana, ich^é nahá, injé etáwe waróxiñeda adáñešdan – wógiñi kigróšige íthgare ke. > “In the middle of resisting, the language got caught, only showing her face in ceremony, like she’s ashamed of her scars.” > (www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FUgDutdauQ&feature=share > > -----Original Message----- > From: Erik Hanson > Sent: Friday, April 11, 2014 9:54 AM > To: Jimm Goodtracks > Subject: Alice translation > > Hello: > > "Alice" is one of the standards that translators deal with and think about. It's the fourth most quoted work in history (after the Bible, Koran, and the complete works of Shakespeare) and the only one of the four both secular and of a manageable size. It has already been translated and published into 125 languages, back to the 1860s and probably a few more unpublished. There is no insult to be read into a desire for a short bit, at least, to be rendered into any/every language. I do question the merits of that particular bit. > > Regards, Erik > > > Sent from my iPhone, please forgive typos and brevity. > > From jpboyle at LANGUAGECONSERVANCY.ORG Sat Apr 12 14:17:50 2014 From: jpboyle at LANGUAGECONSERVANCY.ORG (John P. Boyle) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 09:17:50 -0500 Subject: regrets and thoughts In-Reply-To: <8D123DD08BE83B5-1284-3C8A@webmail-d267.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Hi All, Bob was very good about sending me stuff for The Siouan Archive. This was all material that he thought was in good enough shape to share with us, although several unpublished manuscripts he didn't want distributed past a small group (there are only 2 or 3 of these type of documents). In all, I have 15 single authored published papers and 25 singled authored unpublished papers, including his translation of the Dorsey texts. This is a total of 40 singled authored papers and articles. I have another 4 coauthored published papers and 4 coauthored unpublished papers, including the Comparative Siouan Dictionary. Some (about 3 or 4) of the unpublished papers became published papers, so there is some redundancy. Bob was always very explicated with me in that he wanted his material to be available for people to use and if anyone found errors in any of it, he wanted to know so that it could be corrected (the only corrections I know of were from older sources that Bob used as he didn't personally do field work on every language (e.g. Riggs' Dakota material or Kennard's Mandan material). I am missing some of his presentations for several Siouan conferences, but that is because he didn't feel they were good enough to share or they got folded into additional work at a later date. Take as a whole, this is a tremendous legacy of Siouan linguistics spanning research from 1974 to 2012. If there is anything I can do to help compile, sort or edit his material, just let me know. All the best, John From: Randy Graczyk Reply-To: Siouan Linguistics Date: Friday, April 11, 2014 3:37 PM To: Subject: Re: regrets and thoughts I just looked through my files, and I have 26 papers by Bob Rankin. There are undoubtedly some that I don't have. I know some of these have been published (often in out-of-the-way journals), but many have not. All of them are worth passing on to future generations of Siouanists. Randy -----Original Message----- From: Mary C Marino To: SIOUAN Sent: Fri, Apr 11, 2014 2:20 pm Subject: Re: regrets and thoughts It happens; a will does not necessarily make things any easier for the survivors. Could the university provide you with some space for storage of the materials, where you (and maybe others) could work on them? Mary On 11/04/2014 1:36 PM, David Kaufman wrote: > > Mary, > > > > It's my understanding that Bob did not leave a will. > > > > > Dave > > > > > > > David Kaufman > > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 2:28 PM, Mary C Marino wrote: > >> >> >> Did Bob leave any instructions about these matters in his Will? >> >> Mary >> >> >> >> On 11/04/2014 12:12 PM, David Kaufman wrote: >> >> >>> >>> Hi David and all, >>> >>> >>> >>> Sorry to hear David that you won't be able to make it to the SCLC this year. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I know we have talked about doing a Festschrift in Bob's honor, and this is >>> certainly something we can discuss at the meeting. Hopefully our organizers >>> can set aside some time on the schedule so we can all participate in this >>> discussion. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> As for the CSD, I think it's a great idea to have it finalized and published >>> in some form, either electronically or in print, or both. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> As concerns Bob's unpublished papers and computer files, Carolyn, Bob's >>> wife, and I have been in touch fairly regularly. Even before Bob's death, >>> she said that she and Bob had discussed it and thought it would be best that >>> I come up to their house and "clean out" his garage full of files, books, >>> etc. Also, I plan to take a USB drive and download as much of his computer >>> files as possible, at least some of which I know pertain to Kaw. I'll be >>> happy to distribute whatever I find pertaining to other Siouan languages to >>> those of you who want it. I'm hoping to go up and do this in the next >>> couple of months, possibly in early June or so before it gets too hot. I >>> know Carolyn is thinking about selling the house and moving up to be with >>> family in Wisconsin, so this cleaning out will have to be done fairly soon >>> anyway. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Anyway, I'll keep everyone posted as plans for these things become more >>> concrete. Things are a bit crazy for me right now as I work full-time for >>> the Kaw Nation and try to finish my dissertation without yet having another >>> committee member to substitute for Bob. I hope to defend in May, but I'm >>> still awaiting final word on a new committee member and date from my >>> advisor. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> David Kaufman >>> >>> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >>> >>> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 12:27 PM, ROOD DAVID S >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi, everyone, >>>> My family schedule for at least part of the summer has finally >>>> settled down, and I regret that it precludes me from attending the SCLC >>>> again this year. The earliest I could get to Madison would be >>>> mid-afternoon on Saturday, hardly the appropriate time for participating in >>>> the meeting. >>>> >>>> I am very much interested in what is decided about honoring Bob >>>> Rankin, however, and in what might be done to make his huge contribution to >>>> the history of Siouan and the structure of Dhegiah part of a permanent >>>> record. I know he has many papers that have never been published, as well >>>> as many that are published here and there in places we don't always know >>>> about. As early as 1984, at the workshop that launched the Comparative >>>> Dictionary project, I proposed a "collection of papers" volume that would >>>> be a place for his work (and others), but that has never materialized. >>>> Moreover, for the last few years Bob was the major player in the >>>> evolution of the Comparative Dictionary. As most of you know, Iren >>>> Hartmann at the MPI-Leipzig is working on creating a usable digital verson >>>> of the CSD. Of the original 5 participants (John Koontz, Wes Jones, Dick >>>> Carter, Rankin and me) in the project, I guess I'm the only one who is >>>> still interested and available, so I'm going to work with Iren to see if >>>> that can't be finalized and formalized. There is quite a bit of urgency >>>> here, because as many of you know, the structure of the MPI in Leipzig will >>>> change dramatically in May of 2015, and they will likely no longer be >>>> interested in supporting Iren's work. >>>> >>>> If any of you have any thoughts on how best to move forward with >>>> either Bob's legacy or the CSD, please discuss them at the meeting and keep >>>> me informed. I don't feel like I know Carolyn well enough to approach her >>>> about any of this; perhaps one of you would be willing to help with that. >>>> >>>> Best wishes to all for a fruitful and fun meeting. >>>> >>>> David >>>> >>>> David S. Rood >>>> Dept. of Linguistics >>>> Univ. of Colorado >>>> 295 UCB >>>> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >>>> USA >>>> rood at colorado.edu >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU Sat Apr 12 14:53:37 2014 From: WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU (De Reuse, Willem) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 14:53:37 +0000 Subject: regrets and thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I agree with you, David. We do need to be a circumspect about publishing a volume of Bob's unpublished papers. I can think of a few places where the wordings in his unpublished papers are not quite felicitous, and it would not be a proper tribute to Bob to publish such things without the proper editing, or at all. Such things might not necessarily embarrass Carolyn, because she is not a linguist, but other Siouanists should have a fair amount of input on which papers can be published, so that we avoid the awkward situation in which we have Bob say something not quite right in print posthumously. Best, Willem ________________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics on behalf of ROOD DAVID S Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2014 8:34 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: regrets and thoughts Dave, if Carolyn is willing, I think it would be much better to try to arrange for a book or a series of journal publications (e.g. a special issue of IJAL) rather than an archive. Things get buried in archives. However, I know that a lot of what Bob circulated to us was stuff he considered unfinished. The extent to which anyone else would consider that work publishable needs to be discussed with Carolyn. Best, David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Fri, 11 Apr 2014, David Kaufman wrote: > I don't know if Bob expressed such an interest, at least not to me, and > possibly not to Carolyn either (she didn't mention it). I'd have to look > into how we would go about submitting papers to these organizations for > their archives. Any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated. > > Dave > > David Kaufman > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > > On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 1:26 PM, David Costa wrote: > >> Did Bob ever express a preference as to where his papers should end up? I >> would assume either the NAA or the APS would be best... >> >> Dave Costa >> >> >> Hi David and all, >> >> Sorry to hear David that you won't be able to make it to the SCLC this >> year. >> >> I know we have talked about doing a Festschrift in Bob's honor, and this >> is certainly something we can discuss at the meeting. Hopefully our >> organizers can set aside some time on the schedule so we can all >> participate in this discussion. >> >> As for the CSD, I think it's a great idea to have it finalized and >> published in some form, either electronically or in print, or both. >> >> As concerns Bob's unpublished papers and computer files, Carolyn, Bob's >> wife, and I have been in touch fairly regularly. Even before Bob's death, >> she said that she and Bob had discussed it and thought it would be best >> that I come up to their house and "clean out" his garage full of files, >> books, etc. Also, I plan to take a USB drive and download as much of his >> computer files as possible, at least some of which I know pertain to Kaw. >> I'll be happy to distribute whatever I find pertaining to other Siouan >> languages to those of you who want it. I'm hoping to go up and do this in >> the next couple of months, possibly in early June or so before it gets too >> hot. I know Carolyn is thinking about selling the house and moving up to >> be with family in Wisconsin, so this cleaning out will have to be done >> fairly soon anyway. >> >> Anyway, I'll keep everyone posted as plans for these things become more >> concrete. Things are a bit crazy for me right now as I work full-time for >> the Kaw Nation and try to finish my dissertation without yet having another >> committee member to substitute for Bob. I hope to defend in May, but I'm >> still awaiting final word on a new committee member and date from my >> advisor. >> >> Dave >> >> David Kaufman >> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 12:27 PM, ROOD DAVID S wrote: >> >>> Hi, everyone, >>> My family schedule for at least part of the summer has finally >>> settled down, and I regret that it precludes me from attending the SCLC >>> again this year. The earliest I could get to Madison would be >>> mid-afternoon on Saturday, hardly the appropriate time for participating in >>> the meeting. >>> >>> I am very much interested in what is decided about honoring Bob >>> Rankin, however, and in what might be done to make his huge contribution to >>> the history of Siouan and the structure of Dhegiah part of a permanent >>> record. I know he has many papers that have never been published, as well >>> as many that are published here and there in places we don't always know >>> about. As early as 1984, at the workshop that launched the Comparative >>> Dictionary project, I proposed a "collection of papers" volume that would >>> be a place for his work (and others), but that has never materialized. >>> Moreover, for the last few years Bob was the major player in the >>> evolution of the Comparative Dictionary. As most of you know, Iren >>> Hartmann at the MPI-Leipzig is working on creating a usable digital verson >>> of the CSD. Of the original 5 participants (John Koontz, Wes Jones, Dick >>> Carter, Rankin and me) in the project, I guess I'm the only one who is >>> still interested and available, so I'm going to work with Iren to see if >>> that can't be finalized and formalized. There is quite a bit of urgency >>> here, because as many of you know, the structure of the MPI in Leipzig will >>> change dramatically in May of 2015, and they will likely no longer be >>> interested in supporting Iren's work. >>> >>> If any of you have any thoughts on how best to move forward with >>> either Bob's legacy or the CSD, please discuss them at the meeting and keep >>> me informed. I don't feel like I know Carolyn well enough to approach her >>> about any of this; perhaps one of you would be willing to help with that. >>> >>> Best wishes to all for a fruitful and fun meeting. >>> >>> David >>> >>> David S. Rood >>> Dept. of Linguistics >>> Univ. of Colorado >>> 295 UCB >>> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >>> USA >>> rood at colorado.edu >>> >> >> >> > From mithun at LINGUISTICS.UCSB.EDU Sat Apr 12 16:21:00 2014 From: mithun at LINGUISTICS.UCSB.EDU (Marianne Mithun) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 09:21:00 -0700 Subject: regrets and thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I completely agree with David. There is so much there, and when I've asked Bob about various things, he's come up with handouts from 25 years earlier, and papers from decades before or recently, all of them so valuable. A tricky call of course. How many of us would like our unfinished work out there. But so much of Bob's work was really finished. Marianne --On Saturday, April 12, 2014 7:34 AM -0600 ROOD DAVID S wrote: > Dave, if Carolyn is willing, I think it would be much better to try to > arrange for a book or a series of journal publications (e.g. a special > issue of IJAL) rather than an archive. Things get buried in archives. > However, I know that a lot of what Bob circulated to us was stuff he > considered unfinished. The extent to which anyone else would consider > that work publishable needs to be discussed with Carolyn. > > Best, > David > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > On Fri, 11 Apr 2014, David Kaufman wrote: > >> I don't know if Bob expressed such an interest, at least not to me, and >> possibly not to Carolyn either (she didn't mention it). I'd have to look >> into how we would go about submitting papers to these organizations for >> their archives. Any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated. >> >> Dave >> >> David Kaufman >> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 1:26 PM, David Costa >> wrote: >> >>> Did Bob ever express a preference as to where his papers should end up? >>> I would assume either the NAA or the APS would be best... >>> >>> Dave Costa >>> >>> >>> Hi David and all, >>> >>> Sorry to hear David that you won't be able to make it to the SCLC this >>> year. >>> >>> I know we have talked about doing a Festschrift in Bob's honor, and this >>> is certainly something we can discuss at the meeting. Hopefully our >>> organizers can set aside some time on the schedule so we can all >>> participate in this discussion. >>> >>> As for the CSD, I think it's a great idea to have it finalized and >>> published in some form, either electronically or in print, or both. >>> >>> As concerns Bob's unpublished papers and computer files, Carolyn, Bob's >>> wife, and I have been in touch fairly regularly. Even before Bob's >>> death, she said that she and Bob had discussed it and thought it would >>> be best that I come up to their house and "clean out" his garage full >>> of files, books, etc. Also, I plan to take a USB drive and download as >>> much of his computer files as possible, at least some of which I know >>> pertain to Kaw. I'll be happy to distribute whatever I find pertaining >>> to other Siouan languages to those of you who want it. I'm hoping to >>> go up and do this in the next couple of months, possibly in early June >>> or so before it gets too hot. I know Carolyn is thinking about selling >>> the house and moving up to be with family in Wisconsin, so this >>> cleaning out will have to be done fairly soon anyway. >>> >>> Anyway, I'll keep everyone posted as plans for these things become more >>> concrete. Things are a bit crazy for me right now as I work full-time >>> for the Kaw Nation and try to finish my dissertation without yet having >>> another committee member to substitute for Bob. I hope to defend in >>> May, but I'm still awaiting final word on a new committee member and >>> date from my advisor. >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> David Kaufman >>> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >>> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 12:27 PM, ROOD DAVID S >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi, everyone, >>>> My family schedule for at least part of the summer has finally >>>> settled down, and I regret that it precludes me from attending the SCLC >>>> again this year. The earliest I could get to Madison would be >>>> mid-afternoon on Saturday, hardly the appropriate time for >>>> participating in the meeting. >>>> >>>> I am very much interested in what is decided about honoring Bob >>>> Rankin, however, and in what might be done to make his huge >>>> contribution to the history of Siouan and the structure of Dhegiah >>>> part of a permanent record. I know he has many papers that have never >>>> been published, as well as many that are published here and there in >>>> places we don't always know about. As early as 1984, at the workshop >>>> that launched the Comparative Dictionary project, I proposed a >>>> "collection of papers" volume that would be a place for his work (and >>>> others), but that has never materialized. Moreover, for the last few >>>> years Bob was the major player in the evolution of the >>>> Comparative Dictionary. As most of you know, Iren Hartmann at the >>>> MPI-Leipzig is working on creating a usable digital verson of the CSD. >>>> Of the original 5 participants (John Koontz, Wes Jones, Dick Carter, >>>> Rankin and me) in the project, I guess I'm the only one who is still >>>> interested and available, so I'm going to work with Iren to see if >>>> that can't be finalized and formalized. There is quite a bit of >>>> urgency here, because as many of you know, the structure of the MPI in >>>> Leipzig will change dramatically in May of 2015, and they will likely >>>> no longer be interested in supporting Iren's work. >>>> >>>> If any of you have any thoughts on how best to move forward >>>> with either Bob's legacy or the CSD, please discuss them at >>>> the meeting and keep me informed. I don't feel like I know Carolyn >>>> well enough to approach her about any of this; perhaps one of you >>>> would be willing to help with that. >>>> >>>> Best wishes to all for a fruitful and fun meeting. >>>> >>>> David >>>> >>>> David S. Rood >>>> Dept. of Linguistics >>>> Univ. of Colorado >>>> 295 UCB >>>> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >>>> USA >>>> rood at colorado.edu >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> From mer.anne.johnson at GMAIL.COM Sat Apr 12 17:27:45 2014 From: mer.anne.johnson at GMAIL.COM (Meredith Johnson) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 12:27:45 -0500 Subject: regrets and thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi all, Yes, we are certainly open to setting aside some time at the conference for the Festschrift. We had previously asked about how much time would be needed, but never heard anything back. If anyone has any preferences on how much time or when in the schedule to put it, please let us know by tomorrow night. We are finalizing a tentative schedule tomorrow night, and will circulate it to the list by Monday at the latest. All the best, Meredith > On Apr 11, 2014, at 1:12 PM, David Kaufman wrote: > > Hi David and all, > > Sorry to hear David that you won't be able to make it to the SCLC this year. > > I know we have talked about doing a Festschrift in Bob's honor, and this is certainly something we can discuss at the meeting. Hopefully our organizers can set aside some time on the schedule so we can all participate in this discussion. > > As for the CSD, I think it's a great idea to have it finalized and published in some form, either electronically or in print, or both. > > As concerns Bob's unpublished papers and computer files, Carolyn, Bob's wife, and I have been in touch fairly regularly. Even before Bob's death, she said that she and Bob had discussed it and thought it would be best that I come up to their house and "clean out" his garage full of files, books, etc. Also, I plan to take a USB drive and download as much of his computer files as possible, at least some of which I know pertain to Kaw. I'll be happy to distribute whatever I find pertaining to other Siouan languages to those of you who want it. I'm hoping to go up and do this in the next couple of months, possibly in early June or so before it gets too hot. I know Carolyn is thinking about selling the house and moving up to be with family in Wisconsin, so this cleaning out will have to be done fairly soon anyway. > > Anyway, I'll keep everyone posted as plans for these things become more concrete. Things are a bit crazy for me right now as I work full-time for the Kaw Nation and try to finish my dissertation without yet having another committee member to substitute for Bob. I hope to defend in May, but I'm still awaiting final word on a new committee member and date from my advisor. > > Dave > > David Kaufman > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > >> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 12:27 PM, ROOD DAVID S wrote: >> Hi, everyone, >> My family schedule for at least part of the summer has finally settled down, and I regret that it precludes me from attending the SCLC again this year. The earliest I could get to Madison would be mid-afternoon on Saturday, hardly the appropriate time for participating in the meeting. >> >> I am very much interested in what is decided about honoring Bob Rankin, however, and in what might be done to make his huge contribution to the history of Siouan and the structure of Dhegiah part of a permanent record. I know he has many papers that have never been published, as well as many that are published here and there in places we don't always know about. As early as 1984, at the workshop that launched the Comparative Dictionary project, I proposed a "collection of papers" volume that would be a place for his work (and others), but that has never materialized. >> Moreover, for the last few years Bob was the major player in the evolution of the Comparative Dictionary. As most of you know, Iren Hartmann at the MPI-Leipzig is working on creating a usable digital verson of the CSD. Of the original 5 participants (John Koontz, Wes Jones, Dick Carter, Rankin and me) in the project, I guess I'm the only one who is still interested and available, so I'm going to work with Iren to see if that can't be finalized and formalized. There is quite a bit of urgency here, because as many of you know, the structure of the MPI in Leipzig will change dramatically in May of 2015, and they will likely no longer be interested in supporting Iren's work. >> >> If any of you have any thoughts on how best to move forward with either Bob's legacy or the CSD, please discuss them at the meeting and keep me informed. I don't feel like I know Carolyn well enough to approach her about any of this; perhaps one of you would be willing to help with that. >> >> Best wishes to all for a fruitful and fun meeting. >> >> David >> >> David S. Rood >> Dept. of Linguistics >> Univ. of Colorado >> 295 UCB >> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >> USA >> rood at colorado.edu > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Sat Apr 12 18:12:45 2014 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 13:12:45 -0500 Subject: regrets and thoughts In-Reply-To: <8283DB97-FE4F-4F7D-AE44-38569D863092@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Meredith, I think setting aside at least half an hour would be good, maybe later in the day after other presentations. Others might have different thoughts, but that should be a good start. Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program On Sat, Apr 12, 2014 at 12:27 PM, Meredith Johnson < mer.anne.johnson at gmail.com> wrote: > Hi all, > > Yes, we are certainly open to setting aside some time at the conference > for the Festschrift. We had previously asked about how much time would be > needed, but never heard anything back. If anyone has any preferences on how > much time or when in the schedule to put it, please let us know by tomorrow > night. We are finalizing a tentative schedule tomorrow night, and will > circulate it to the list by Monday at the latest. > > All the best, > Meredith > > > On Apr 11, 2014, at 1:12 PM, David Kaufman wrote: > > Hi David and all, > > Sorry to hear David that you won't be able to make it to the SCLC this > year. > > I know we have talked about doing a Festschrift in Bob's honor, and this > is certainly something we can discuss at the meeting. Hopefully our > organizers can set aside some time on the schedule so we can all > participate in this discussion. > > As for the CSD, I think it's a great idea to have it finalized and > published in some form, either electronically or in print, or both. > > As concerns Bob's unpublished papers and computer files, Carolyn, Bob's > wife, and I have been in touch fairly regularly. Even before Bob's death, > she said that she and Bob had discussed it and thought it would be best > that I come up to their house and "clean out" his garage full of files, > books, etc. Also, I plan to take a USB drive and download as much of his > computer files as possible, at least some of which I know pertain to Kaw. > I'll be happy to distribute whatever I find pertaining to other Siouan > languages to those of you who want it. I'm hoping to go up and do this in > the next couple of months, possibly in early June or so before it gets too > hot. I know Carolyn is thinking about selling the house and moving up to > be with family in Wisconsin, so this cleaning out will have to be done > fairly soon anyway. > > Anyway, I'll keep everyone posted as plans for these things become more > concrete. Things are a bit crazy for me right now as I work full-time for > the Kaw Nation and try to finish my dissertation without yet having another > committee member to substitute for Bob. I hope to defend in May, but I'm > still awaiting final word on a new committee member and date from my > advisor. > > Dave > > David Kaufman > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > > On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 12:27 PM, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > >> Hi, everyone, >> My family schedule for at least part of the summer has finally >> settled down, and I regret that it precludes me from attending the SCLC >> again this year. The earliest I could get to Madison would be >> mid-afternoon on Saturday, hardly the appropriate time for participating in >> the meeting. >> >> I am very much interested in what is decided about honoring Bob >> Rankin, however, and in what might be done to make his huge contribution to >> the history of Siouan and the structure of Dhegiah part of a permanent >> record. I know he has many papers that have never been published, as well >> as many that are published here and there in places we don't always know >> about. As early as 1984, at the workshop that launched the Comparative >> Dictionary project, I proposed a "collection of papers" volume that would >> be a place for his work (and others), but that has never materialized. >> Moreover, for the last few years Bob was the major player in the >> evolution of the Comparative Dictionary. As most of you know, Iren >> Hartmann at the MPI-Leipzig is working on creating a usable digital verson >> of the CSD. Of the original 5 participants (John Koontz, Wes Jones, Dick >> Carter, Rankin and me) in the project, I guess I'm the only one who is >> still interested and available, so I'm going to work with Iren to see if >> that can't be finalized and formalized. There is quite a bit of urgency >> here, because as many of you know, the structure of the MPI in Leipzig will >> change dramatically in May of 2015, and they will likely no longer be >> interested in supporting Iren's work. >> >> If any of you have any thoughts on how best to move forward with >> either Bob's legacy or the CSD, please discuss them at the meeting and keep >> me informed. I don't feel like I know Carolyn well enough to approach her >> about any of this; perhaps one of you would be willing to help with that. >> >> Best wishes to all for a fruitful and fun meeting. >> >> David >> >> David S. Rood >> Dept. of Linguistics >> Univ. of Colorado >> 295 UCB >> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >> USA >> rood at colorado.edu >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From carudin1 at WSC.EDU Sat Apr 12 18:18:33 2014 From: carudin1 at WSC.EDU (Catherine Rudin) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 13:18:33 -0500 Subject: regrets and thoughts Message-ID: So, it looks to me like we're talking about at least two different things, maybe three, all of which I would like to see done. (1) A collection of Bob's papers, to be published as a book and/or perhaps a journal special issue. The Siouan archive collection would be a good start on gathering these papers, though there might be others that he never sent in. These would be work that was finished (or close to it) but either not published or published in out-of-the-way places. Someone would need to select which works to include, edit them (as has been pointed out, some may not be quite ready for public consumption), and of course find a publisher. Volunteers? (2) A different collection of less-polished or fragmentary material, to be given to some appropriate archive. I imagine a lot of what Dave K will find in the "garage full of files" will be notes, correspondence, class handouts ... the kind of things that don't belong in a book or journal but that might well be of great interest to future researchers. Yes, things do get buried in archives, as someone said, but at least they are there for some future person to dig up. Bob once sent me a bunch of his old class handouts on comparative Romance; nothing publishable, but invaluable in putting together my own Romance linguistics course. I bet there's lots of similar stuff on Siouan in that garage. Someone (Dave K?) would need to contact an archive & do some sorting... (3) A festschrift in Bob's honor. This would presumably be a selection of papers on Siouan languages by some of us, though it might include a paper or two of Bob's too. There was a suggestion earlier that it could serve as a venue for some of the papers from the abandoned Comparative Siouan Syntax project. This one would take a fair amount of cat-herding, getting people to send papers in by some reasonable deadline, selecting, editing, finding a publisher -- lots of work, but seems well worth doing. Let's talk about all of these in Madison. To answer Meredith's question -- I think we should have a fairly good chunk of time (at least an hour??? perhaps at the end of an afternoon so it could run as long as needed?) Will there be a separate chance to talk about Bob's life and what he meant to us all, or are you picturing rolling a memorial together with talking about publication plans? Sorry to go on at such length -- the thread seems to be getting a bit fragmented and I'm hoping to gather it back together. Catherine >>> Marianne Mithun 04/12/14 11:22 AM >>> I completely agree with David. There is so much there, and when I've asked Bob about various things, he's come up with handouts from 25 years earlier, and papers from decades before or recently, all of them so valuable. A tricky call of course. How many of us would like our unfinished work out there. But so much of Bob's work was really finished. Marianne --On Saturday, April 12, 2014 7:34 AM -0600 ROOD DAVID S wrote: > Dave, if Carolyn is willing, I think it would be much better to try to > arrange for a book or a series of journal publications (e.g. a special > issue of IJAL) rather than an archive. Things get buried in archives. > However, I know that a lot of what Bob circulated to us was stuff he > considered unfinished. The extent to which anyone else would consider > that work publishable needs to be discussed with Carolyn. > > Best, > David > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > On Fri, 11 Apr 2014, David Kaufman wrote: > >> I don't know if Bob expressed such an interest, at least not to me, and >> possibly not to Carolyn either (she didn't mention it). I'd have to look >> into how we would go about submitting papers to these organizations for >> their archives. Any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated. >> >> Dave >> >> David Kaufman >> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 1:26 PM, David Costa >> wrote: >> >>> Did Bob ever express a preference as to where his papers should end up? >>> I would assume either the NAA or the APS would be best... >>> >>> Dave Costa >>> >>> >>> Hi David and all, >>> >>> Sorry to hear David that you won't be able to make it to the SCLC this >>> year. >>> >>> I know we have talked about doing a Festschrift in Bob's honor, and this >>> is certainly something we can discuss at the meeting. Hopefully our >>> organizers can set aside some time on the schedule so we can all >>> participate in this discussion. >>> >>> As for the CSD, I think it's a great idea to have it finalized and >>> published in some form, either electronically or in print, or both. >>> >>> As concerns Bob's unpublished papers and computer files, Carolyn, Bob's >>> wife, and I have been in touch fairly regularly. Even before Bob's >>> death, she said that she and Bob had discussed it and thought it would >>> be best that I come up to their house and "clean out" his garage full >>> of files, books, etc. Also, I plan to take a USB drive and download as >>> much of his computer files as possible, at least some of which I know >>> pertain to Kaw. I'll be happy to distribute whatever I find pertaining >>> to other Siouan languages to those of you who want it. I'm hoping to >>> go up and do this in the next couple of months, possibly in early June >>> or so before it gets too hot. I know Carolyn is thinking about selling >>> the house and moving up to be with family in Wisconsin, so this >>> cleaning out will have to be done fairly soon anyway. >>> >>> Anyway, I'll keep everyone posted as plans for these things become more >>> concrete. Things are a bit crazy for me right now as I work full-time >>> for the Kaw Nation and try to finish my dissertation without yet having >>> another committee member to substitute for Bob. I hope to defend in >>> May, but I'm still awaiting final word on a new committee member and >>> date from my advisor. >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> David Kaufman >>> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >>> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 12:27 PM, ROOD DAVID S >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi, everyone, >>>> My family schedule for at least part of the summer has finally >>>> settled down, and I regret that it precludes me from attending the SCLC >>>> again this year. The earliest I could get to Madison would be >>>> mid-afternoon on Saturday, hardly the appropriate time for >>>> participating in the meeting. >>>> >>>> I am very much interested in what is decided about honoring Bob >>>> Rankin, however, and in what might be done to make his huge >>>> contribution to the history of Siouan and the structure of Dhegiah >>>> part of a permanent record. I know he has many papers that have never >>>> been published, as well as many that are published here and there in >>>> places we don't always know about. As early as 1984, at the workshop >>>> that launched the Comparative Dictionary project, I proposed a >>>> "collection of papers" volume that would be a place for his work (and >>>> others), but that has never materialized. Moreover, for the last few >>>> years Bob was the major player in the evolution of the >>>> Comparative Dictionary. As most of you know, Iren Hartmann at the >>>> MPI-Leipzig is working on creating a usable digital verson of the CSD. >>>> Of the original 5 participants (John Koontz, Wes Jones, Dick Carter, >>>> Rankin and me) in the project, I guess I'm the only one who is still >>>> interested and available, so I'm going to work with Iren to see if >>>> that can't be finalized and formalized. There is quite a bit of >>>> urgency here, because as many of you know, the structure of the MPI in >>>> Leipzig will change dramatically in May of 2015, and they will likely >>>> no longer be interested in supporting Iren's work. >>>> >>>> If any of you have any thoughts on how best to move forward >>>> with either Bob's legacy or the CSD, please discuss them at >>>> the meeting and keep me informed. I don't feel like I know Carolyn >>>> well enough to approach her about any of this; perhaps one of you >>>> would be willing to help with that. >>>> >>>> Best wishes to all for a fruitful and fun meeting. >>>> >>>> David >>>> >>>> David S. Rood >>>> Dept. of Linguistics >>>> Univ. of Colorado >>>> 295 UCB >>>> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >>>> USA >>>> rood at colorado.edu >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From carudin1 at WSC.EDU Sat Apr 12 18:22:11 2014 From: carudin1 at WSC.EDU (Catherine Rudin) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 13:22:11 -0500 Subject: regrets and thoughts Message-ID: Oh, and of course #(4) -- the Comparative Siouan Dictionary! >>> Catherine Rudin 04/12/14 1:20 PM >>> So, it looks to me like we're talking about at least two different things, maybe three, all of which I would like to see done. (1) A collection of Bob's papers, to be published as a book and/or perhaps a journal special issue. The Siouan archive collection would be a good start on gathering these papers, though there might be others that he never sent in. These would be work that was finished (or close to it) but either not published or published in out-of-the-way places. Someone would need to select which works to include, edit them (as has been pointed out, some may not be quite ready for public consumption), and of course find a publisher. Volunteers? (2) A different collection of less-polished or fragmentary material, to be given to some appropriate archive. I imagine a lot of what Dave K will find in the "garage full of files" will be notes, correspondence, class handouts ... the kind of things that don't belong in a book or journal but that might well be of great interest to future researchers. Yes, things do get buried in archives, as someone said, but at least they are there for some future person to dig up. Bob once sent me a bunch of his old class handouts on comparative Romance; nothing publishable, but invaluable in putting together my own Romance linguistics course. I bet there's lots of similar stuff on Siouan in that garage. Someone (Dave K?) would need to contact an archive & do some sorting... (3) A festschrift in Bob's honor. This would presumably be a selection of papers on Siouan languages by some of us, though it might include a paper or two of Bob's too. There was a suggestion earlier that it could serve as a venue for some of the papers from the abandoned Comparative Siouan Syntax project. This one would take a fair amount of cat-herding, getting people to send papers in by some reasonable deadline, selecting, editing, finding a publisher -- lots of work, but seems well worth doing. Let's talk about all of these in Madison. To answer Meredith's question -- I think we should have a fairly good chunk of time (at least an hour??? perhaps at the end of an afternoon so it could run as long as needed?) Will there be a separate chance to talk about Bob's life and what he meant to us all, or are you picturing rolling a memorial together with talking about publication plans? Sorry to go on at such length -- the thread seems to be getting a bit fragmented and I'm hoping to gather it back together. Catherine >>> Marianne Mithun 04/12/14 11:22 AM >>> I completely agree with David. There is so much there, and when I've asked Bob about various things, he's come up with handouts from 25 years earlier, and papers from decades before or recently, all of them so valuable. A tricky call of course. How many of us would like our unfinished work out there. But so much of Bob's work was really finished. Marianne --On Saturday, April 12, 2014 7:34 AM -0600 ROOD DAVID S wrote: > Dave, if Carolyn is willing, I think it would be much better to try to > arrange for a book or a series of journal publications (e.g. a special > issue of IJAL) rather than an archive. Things get buried in archives. > However, I know that a lot of what Bob circulated to us was stuff he > considered unfinished. The extent to which anyone else would consider > that work publishable needs to be discussed with Carolyn. > > Best, > David > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > On Fri, 11 Apr 2014, David Kaufman wrote: > >> I don't know if Bob expressed such an interest, at least not to me, and >> possibly not to Carolyn either (she didn't mention it). I'd have to look >> into how we would go about submitting papers to these organizations for >> their archives. Any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated. >> >> Dave >> >> David Kaufman >> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 1:26 PM, David Costa >> wrote: >> >>> Did Bob ever express a preference as to where his papers should end up? >>> I would assume either the NAA or the APS would be best... >>> >>> Dave Costa >>> >>> >>> Hi David and all, >>> >>> Sorry to hear David that you won't be able to make it to the SCLC this >>> year. >>> >>> I know we have talked about doing a Festschrift in Bob's honor, and this >>> is certainly something we can discuss at the meeting. Hopefully our >>> organizers can set aside some time on the schedule so we can all >>> participate in this discussion. >>> >>> As for the CSD, I think it's a great idea to have it finalized and >>> published in some form, either electronically or in print, or both. >>> >>> As concerns Bob's unpublished papers and computer files, Carolyn, Bob's >>> wife, and I have been in touch fairly regularly. Even before Bob's >>> death, she said that she and Bob had discussed it and thought it would >>> be best that I come up to their house and "clean out" his garage full >>> of files, books, etc. Also, I plan to take a USB drive and download as >>> much of his computer files as possible, at least some of which I know >>> pertain to Kaw. I'll be happy to distribute whatever I find pertaining >>> to other Siouan languages to those of you who want it. I'm hoping to >>> go up and do this in the next couple of months, possibly in early June >>> or so before it gets too hot. I know Carolyn is thinking about selling >>> the house and moving up to be with family in Wisconsin, so this >>> cleaning out will have to be done fairly soon anyway. >>> >>> Anyway, I'll keep everyone posted as plans for these things become more >>> concrete. Things are a bit crazy for me right now as I work full-time >>> for the Kaw Nation and try to finish my dissertation without yet having >>> another committee member to substitute for Bob. I hope to defend in >>> May, but I'm still awaiting final word on a new committee member and >>> date from my advisor. >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> David Kaufman >>> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >>> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 12:27 PM, ROOD DAVID S >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi, everyone, >>>> My family schedule for at least part of the summer has finally >>>> settled down, and I regret that it precludes me from attending the SCLC >>>> again this year. The earliest I could get to Madison would be >>>> mid-afternoon on Saturday, hardly the appropriate time for >>>> participating in the meeting. >>>> >>>> I am very much interested in what is decided about honoring Bob >>>> Rankin, however, and in what might be done to make his huge >>>> contribution to the history of Siouan and the structure of Dhegiah >>>> part of a permanent record. I know he has many papers that have never >>>> been published, as well as many that are published here and there in >>>> places we don't always know about. As early as 1984, at the workshop >>>> that launched the Comparative Dictionary project, I proposed a >>>> "collection of papers" volume that would be a place for his work (and >>>> others), but that has never materialized. Moreover, for the last few >>>> years Bob was the major player in the evolution of the >>>> Comparative Dictionary. As most of you know, Iren Hartmann at the >>>> MPI-Leipzig is working on creating a usable digital verson of the CSD. >>>> Of the original 5 participants (John Koontz, Wes Jones, Dick Carter, >>>> Rankin and me) in the project, I guess I'm the only one who is still >>>> interested and available, so I'm going to work with Iren to see if >>>> that can't be finalized and formalized. There is quite a bit of >>>> urgency here, because as many of you know, the structure of the MPI in >>>> Leipzig will change dramatically in May of 2015, and they will likely >>>> no longer be interested in supporting Iren's work. >>>> >>>> If any of you have any thoughts on how best to move forward >>>> with either Bob's legacy or the CSD, please discuss them at >>>> the meeting and keep me informed. I don't feel like I know Carolyn >>>> well enough to approach her about any of this; perhaps one of you >>>> would be willing to help with that. >>>> >>>> Best wishes to all for a fruitful and fun meeting. >>>> >>>> David >>>> >>>> David S. Rood >>>> Dept. of Linguistics >>>> Univ. of Colorado >>>> 295 UCB >>>> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >>>> USA >>>> rood at colorado.edu >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Sat Apr 12 19:01:50 2014 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 14:01:50 -0500 Subject: regrets and thoughts In-Reply-To: <53493D290200008E000B1E4E@hermes.wsc.edu> Message-ID: Just to follow up here, we are also working on trying to get Bob's remains (ashes) transported from Kansas City to Oklahoma for interment at the Washunga Cemetery (the Kaw Nation cemetery). I have been involved in Kaw Nation Cultural Committee meetings to try and get all these things taken care of, and have been in touch with Carolyn on an ongoing basis. There will be a memorial service here for him once the date is established for the interment. We have another meeting on Monday in which I hope the final interment date will be set, hopefully for within the next couple of weeks. (Carolyn herself does not plan to attend as it's a fairly long drive and she's still in the midst of taking care of financial and other arrangements since Bob's death.) I'm afraid that, due to all of these other pressing issues, including trying to get my own PhD completed and dealing with the transport and final interment of Bob's remains, I haven't got far enough yet in my planning to figure out what to do with all Bob's academic material from Lawrence, especially physical papers and files, once I get them. Storing some of this at KU or even at the Kaw Nation might be an option, but I agree that there needs to be an organized way to go through this and get it disseminated to all of us who are interested, as well as being archived somewhere accessible to the public - perhaps even the Smithsonian? I will have to do some homework around all this, but not until I've dealt with these other pressing topics first. Perhaps by the time I see everyone in Wisconsin I'll have a better idea of what to do and how to do it. I appreciate the offers of help and will let you know once I have a better handle on it all. Thanks! Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program On Sat, Apr 12, 2014 at 1:18 PM, Catherine Rudin wrote: > So, it looks to me like we're talking about at least two different things, > maybe three, all of which I would like to see done. > > (1) A collection of Bob's papers, to be published as a book and/or perhaps > a journal special issue. The Siouan archive collection would be a good > start on gathering these papers, though there might be others that he never > sent in. These would be work that was finished (or close to it) but either > not published or published in out-of-the-way places. Someone would need to > select which works to include, edit them (as has been pointed out, some may > not be quite ready for public consumption), and of course find a > publisher. Volunteers? > > (2) A different collection of less-polished or fragmentary material, to be > given to some appropriate archive. I imagine a lot of what Dave K will > find in the "garage full of files" will be notes, correspondence, class > handouts ... the kind of things that don't belong in a book or journal but > that might well be of great interest to future researchers. Yes, things do > get buried in archives, as someone said, but at least they are there for > some future person to dig up. Bob once sent me a bunch of his old class > handouts on comparative Romance; nothing publishable, but invaluable in > putting together my own Romance linguistics course. I bet there's lots of > similar stuff on Siouan in that garage. Someone (Dave K?) would need to > contact an archive & do some sorting... > > (3) A festschrift in Bob's honor. This would presumably be a selection of > papers on Siouan languages by some of us, though it might include a paper > or two of Bob's too. There was a suggestion earlier that it could serve as > a venue for some of the papers from the abandoned Comparative Siouan Syntax > project. This one would take a fair amount of cat-herding, getting people > to send papers in by some reasonable deadline, selecting, editing, finding > a publisher -- lots of work, but seems well worth doing. > > Let's talk about all of these in Madison. To answer Meredith's question > -- I think we should have a fairly good chunk of time (at least an hour??? > perhaps at the end of an afternoon so it could run as long as needed?) Will > there be a separate chance to talk about Bob's life and what he meant to us > all, or are you picturing rolling a memorial together with talking about > publication plans? > > Sorry to go on at such length -- the thread seems to be getting a bit > fragmented and I'm hoping to gather it back together. > Catherine > > >>> Marianne Mithun 04/12/14 11:22 AM >>> > I completely agree with David. There is so much there, and when I've asked > Bob about various things, he's come up with handouts from 25 years > earlier, > and papers from decades before or recently, all of them so valuable. A > tricky call of course. How many of us would like our unfinished work out > there. But so much of Bob's work was really finished. > > Marianne > > --On Saturday, April 12, 2014 7:34 AM -0600 ROOD DAVID S > wrote: > > > Dave, if Carolyn is willing, I think it would be much better to try to > > arrange for a book or a series of journal publications (e.g. a special > > issue of IJAL) rather than an archive. Things get buried in archives. > > However, I know that a lot of what Bob circulated to us was stuff he > > considered unfinished. The extent to which anyone else would consider > > that work publishable needs to be discussed with Carolyn. > > > > Best, > > David > > > > David S. Rood > > Dept. of Linguistics > > Univ. of Colorado > > 295 UCB > > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > > USA > > rood at colorado.edu > > > > On Fri, 11 Apr 2014, David Kaufman wrote: > > > >> I don't know if Bob expressed such an interest, at least not to me, and > >> possibly not to Carolyn either (she didn't mention it). I'd have to look > >> into how we would go about submitting papers to these organizations for > >> their archives. Any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated. > >> > >> Dave > >> > >> David Kaufman > >> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > >> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > >> > >> > >> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 1:26 PM, David Costa > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Did Bob ever express a preference as to where his papers should end up? > >>> I would assume either the NAA or the APS would be best... > >>> > >>> Dave Costa > >>> > >>> > >>> Hi David and all, > >>> > >>> Sorry to hear David that you won't be able to make it to the SCLC this > >>> year. > >>> > >>> I know we have talked about doing a Festschrift in Bob's honor, and > this > >>> is certainly something we can discuss at the meeting. Hopefully our > >>> organizers can set aside some time on the schedule so we can all > >>> participate in this discussion. > >>> > >>> As for the CSD, I think it's a great idea to have it finalized and > >>> published in some form, either electronically or in print, or both. > >>> > >>> As concerns Bob's unpublished papers and computer files, Carolyn, Bob's > >>> wife, and I have been in touch fairly regularly. Even before Bob's > >>> death, she said that she and Bob had discussed it and thought it would > >>> be best that I come up to their house and "clean out" his garage full > >>> of files, books, etc. Also, I plan to take a USB drive and download as > >>> much of his computer files as possible, at least some of which I know > >>> pertain to Kaw. I'll be happy to distribute whatever I find pertaining > >>> to other Siouan languages to those of you who want it. I'm hoping to > >>> go up and do this in the next couple of months, possibly in early June > >>> or so before it gets too hot. I know Carolyn is thinking about selling > >>> the house and moving up to be with family in Wisconsin, so this > >>> cleaning out will have to be done fairly soon anyway. > >>> > >>> Anyway, I'll keep everyone posted as plans for these things become more > >>> concrete. Things are a bit crazy for me right now as I work full-time > >>> for the Kaw Nation and try to finish my dissertation without yet having > >>> another committee member to substitute for Bob. I hope to defend in > >>> May, but I'm still awaiting final word on a new committee member and > >>> date from my advisor. > >>> > >>> Dave > >>> > >>> David Kaufman > >>> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > >>> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > >>> > >>> > >>> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 12:27 PM, ROOD DAVID S > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Hi, everyone, > >>>> My family schedule for at least part of the summer has finally > >>>> settled down, and I regret that it precludes me from attending the > SCLC > >>>> again this year. The earliest I could get to Madison would be > >>>> mid-afternoon on Saturday, hardly the appropriate time for > >>>> participating in the meeting. > >>>> > >>>> I am very much interested in what is decided about honoring Bob > >>>> Rankin, however, and in what might be done to make his huge > >>>> contribution to the history of Siouan and the structure of Dhegiah > >>>> part of a permanent record. I know he has many papers that have never > >>>> been published, as well as many that are published here and there in > >>>> places we don't always know about. As early as 1984, at the workshop > >>>> that launched the Comparative Dictionary project, I proposed a > >>>> "collection of papers" volume that would be a place for his work (and > >>>> others), but that has never materialized. Moreover, for the last few > >>>> years Bob was the major player in the evolution of the > >>>> Comparative Dictionary. As most of you know, Iren Hartmann at the > >>>> MPI-Leipzig is working on creating a usable digital verson of the CSD. > >>>> Of the original 5 participants (John Koontz, Wes Jones, Dick Carter, > >>>> Rankin and me) in the project, I guess I'm the only one who is still > >>>> interested and available, so I'm going to work with Iren to see if > >>>> that can't be finalized and formalized. There is quite a bit of > >>>> urgency here, because as many of you know, the structure of the MPI in > >>>> Leipzig will change dramatically in May of 2015, and they will likely > >>>> no longer be interested in supporting Iren's work. > >>>> > >>>> If any of you have any thoughts on how best to move forward > >>>> with either Bob's legacy or the CSD, please discuss them at > >>>> the meeting and keep me informed. I don't feel like I know Carolyn > >>>> well enough to approach her about any of this; perhaps one of you > >>>> would be willing to help with that. > >>>> > >>>> Best wishes to all for a fruitful and fun meeting. > >>>> > >>>> David > >>>> > >>>> David S. Rood > >>>> Dept. of Linguistics > >>>> Univ. of Colorado > >>>> 295 UCB > >>>> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > >>>> USA > >>>> rood at colorado.edu > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mer.anne.johnson at GMAIL.COM Sat Apr 12 19:07:55 2014 From: mer.anne.johnson at GMAIL.COM (Meredith Johnson) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 14:07:55 -0500 Subject: regrets and thoughts In-Reply-To: <53493E030200008E000B1E53@hermes.wsc.edu> Message-ID: Hi all, Thanks for the clarification, Catherine! We can certainly do a memorial in addition to a discussion of the Festschrift. We'll schedule an hour at the end of one day for the Festschrift, and allow time for it to go over. As for the memorial, we were planning an informal gathering on the union terrace overlooking Lake Mendota after the talks on the first day. Would people want to take that as an opportunity to remember Dr. Rankin? Or we could easily add in some other time for that too. Thanks! Meredith Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 12, 2014, at 1:22 PM, Catherine Rudin wrote: > > Oh, and of course #(4) -- the Comparative Siouan Dictionary! > > >>> Catherine Rudin 04/12/14 1:20 PM >>> > So, it looks to me like we're talking about at least two different things, maybe three, all of which I would like to see done. > > (1) A collection of Bob's papers, to be published as a book and/or perhaps a journal special issue. The Siouan archive collection would be a good start on gathering these papers, though there might be others that he never sent in. These would be work that was finished (or close to it) but either not published or published in out-of-the-way places. Someone would need to select which works to include, edit them (as has been pointed out, some may not be quite ready for public consumption), and of course find a publisher. Volunteers? > > (2) A different collection of less-polished or fragmentary material, to be given to some appropriate archive. I imagine a lot of what Dave K will find in the "garage full of files" will be notes, correspondence, class handouts ... the kind of things that don't belong in a book or journal but that might well be of great interest to future researchers. Yes, things do get buried in archives, as someone said, but at least they are there for some future person to dig up. Bob once sent me a bunch of his old class handouts on comparative Romance; nothing publishable, but invaluable in putting together my own Romance linguistics course. I bet there's lots of similar stuff on Siouan in that garage. Someone (Dave K?) would need to contact an archive & do some sorting... > > (3) A festschrift in Bob's honor. This would presumably be a selection of papers on Siouan languages by some of us, though it might include a paper or two of Bob's too. There was a suggestion earlier that it could serve as a venue for some of the papers from the abandoned Comparative Siouan Syntax project. This one would take a fair amount of cat-herding, getting people to send papers in by some reasonable deadline, selecting, editing, finding a publisher -- lots of work, but seems well worth doing. > > Let's talk about all of these in Madison. To answer Meredith's question -- I think we should have a fairly good chunk of time (at least an hour??? perhaps at the end of an afternoon so it could run as long as needed?) Will there be a separate chance to talk about Bob's life and what he meant to us all, or are you picturing rolling a memorial together with talking about publication plans? > > Sorry to go on at such length -- the thread seems to be getting a bit fragmented and I'm hoping to gather it back together. > Catherine > > >>> Marianne Mithun 04/12/14 11:22 AM >>> > I completely agree with David. There is so much there, and when I've asked > Bob about various things, he's come up with handouts from 25 years earlier, > and papers from decades before or recently, all of them so valuable. A > tricky call of course. How many of us would like our unfinished work out > there. But so much of Bob's work was really finished. > > Marianne > > --On Saturday, April 12, 2014 7:34 AM -0600 ROOD DAVID S > wrote: > > > Dave, if Carolyn is willing, I think it would be much better to try to > > arrange for a book or a series of journal publications (e.g. a special > > issue of IJAL) rather than an archive. Things get buried in archives. > > However, I know that a lot of what Bob circulated to us was stuff he > > considered unfinished. The extent to which anyone else would consider > > that work publishable needs to be discussed with Carolyn. > > > > Best, > > David > > > > David S. Rood > > Dept. of Linguistics > > Univ. of Colorado > > 295 UCB > > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > > USA > > rood at colorado.edu > > > > On Fri, 11 Apr 2014, David Kaufman wrote: > > > >> I don't know if Bob expressed such an interest, at least not to me, and > >> possibly not to Carolyn either (she didn't mention it). I'd have to look > >> into how we would go about submitting papers to these organizations for > >> their archives. Any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated. > >> > >> Dave > >> > >> David Kaufman > >> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > >> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > >> > >> > >> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 1:26 PM, David Costa > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Did Bob ever express a preference as to where his papers should end up? > >>> I would assume either the NAA or the APS would be best... > >>> > >>> Dave Costa > >>> > >>> > >>> Hi David and all, > >>> > >>> Sorry to hear David that you won't be able to make it to the SCLC this > >>> year. > >>> > >>> I know we have talked about doing a Festschrift in Bob's honor, and this > >>> is certainly something we can discuss at the meeting. Hopefully our > >>> organizers can set aside some time on the schedule so we can all > >>> participate in this discussion. > >>> > >>> As for the CSD, I think it's a great idea to have it finalized and > >>> published in some form, either electronically or in print, or both. > >>> > >>> As concerns Bob's unpublished papers and computer files, Carolyn, Bob's > >>> wife, and I have been in touch fairly regularly. Even before Bob's > >>> death, she said that she and Bob had discussed it and thought it would > >>> be best that I come up to their house and "clean out" his garage full > >>> of files, books, etc. Also, I plan to take a USB drive and download as > >>> much of his computer files as possible, at least some of which I know > >>> pertain to Kaw. I'll be happy to distribute whatever I find pertaining > >>> to other Siouan languages to those of you who want it. I'm hoping to > >>> go up and do this in the next couple of months, possibly in early June > >>> or so before it gets too hot. I know Carolyn is thinking about selling > >>> the house and moving up to be with family in Wisconsin, so this > >>> cleaning out will have to be done fairly soon anyway. > >>> > >>> Anyway, I'll keep everyone posted as plans for these things become more > >>> concrete. Things are a bit crazy for me right now as I work full-time > >>> for the Kaw Nation and try to finish my dissertation without yet having > >>> another committee member to substitute for Bob. I hope to defend in > >>> May, but I'm still awaiting final word on a new committee member and > >>> date from my advisor. > >>> > >>> Dave > >>> > >>> David Kaufman > >>> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > >>> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > >>> > >>> > >>> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 12:27 PM, ROOD DAVID S > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Hi, everyone, > >>>> My family schedule for at least part of the summer has finally > >>>> settled down, and I regret that it precludes me from attending the SCLC > >>>> again this year. The earliest I could get to Madison would be > >>>> mid-afternoon on Saturday, hardly the appropriate time for > >>>> participating in the meeting. > >>>> > >>>> I am very much interested in what is decided about honoring Bob > >>>> Rankin, however, and in what might be done to make his huge > >>>> contribution to the history of Siouan and the structure of Dhegiah > >>>> part of a permanent record. I know he has many papers that have never > >>>> been published, as well as many that are published here and there in > >>>> places we don't always know about. As early as 1984, at the workshop > >>>> that launched the Comparative Dictionary project, I proposed a > >>>> "collection of papers" volume that would be a place for his work (and > >>>> others), but that has never materialized. Moreover, for the last few > >>>> years Bob was the major player in the evolution of the > >>>> Comparative Dictionary. As most of you know, Iren Hartmann at the > >>>> MPI-Leipzig is working on creating a usable digital verson of the CSD. > >>>> Of the original 5 participants (John Koontz, Wes Jones, Dick Carter, > >>>> Rankin and me) in the project, I guess I'm the only one who is still > >>>> interested and available, so I'm going to work with Iren to see if > >>>> that can't be finalized and formalized. There is quite a bit of > >>>> urgency here, because as many of you know, the structure of the MPI in > >>>> Leipzig will change dramatically in May of 2015, and they will likely > >>>> no longer be interested in supporting Iren's work. > >>>> > >>>> If any of you have any thoughts on how best to move forward > >>>> with either Bob's legacy or the CSD, please discuss them at > >>>> the meeting and keep me informed. I don't feel like I know Carolyn > >>>> well enough to approach her about any of this; perhaps one of you > >>>> would be willing to help with that. > >>>> > >>>> Best wishes to all for a fruitful and fun meeting. > >>>> > >>>> David > >>>> > >>>> David S. Rood > >>>> Dept. of Linguistics > >>>> Univ. of Colorado > >>>> 295 UCB > >>>> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > >>>> USA > >>>> rood at colorado.edu > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> From sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Sat Apr 12 21:38:29 2014 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM (Sky Campbell) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 16:38:29 -0500 Subject: Alice translation In-Reply-To: <002b01cf5652$bb498ba0$31dca2e0$@org> Message-ID: My wife and I were out this morning when the idea of "mysterious/sacred" came to mind and we discussed it for a bit. I like this approach if the idea of "curious" is "weird/strange" rather than "I want to know." What I am lacking here is the cultural distinction (if any) between mysterious, sacred, medicine, etc. in these languages. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jan Ullrich Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2014 8:26 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Alice translation >> Alice was a Victorian-age English girl. When she fell down the rabbit hole and sampled the mushrooms, she said: “Curiouser and curiouser.” A modern day American girl might communicate the same message with the formula: “Well, this is really getting weird.” Here, the same substantive message can be communicated at least two different ways in the same language without using any of the same words or grammatical devices. >>> In the mouths of fluent speakers, Siouan languages most likely had ways of expressing this same message. It is not culturally specific; anybody, anywhere, might have occasion to utter it. Lexically, we might want to check to see if we have one or more words meaning “curious”, in the sense of ‘strange’, ‘odd’, ‘weird’, or ‘contrary to expectations’. If not, some word in the language probably got overlooked, and if we still have speakers we should search for it. Rorry, I think that in the context you described the expression is to a high degree synonymous with the words “mysterious” and perhaps “magical”. So one of the possible free translations of the sentence into Lakota is this: “Sáŋm wakháŋ áye” (more / mysterious / it is becoming gradually or changing cumulatively). Jan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From CaRudin1 at WSC.EDU Sat Apr 12 21:45:52 2014 From: CaRudin1 at WSC.EDU (Catherine Rudin) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 16:45:52 -0500 Subject: regrets and thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dave -- WRITE YOUR DISSERTATION!!!!! :-) >>> David Kaufman 4/12/2014 2:01 PM >>> Just to follow up here, we are also working on trying to get Bob's remains (ashes) transported from Kansas City to Oklahoma for interment at the Washunga Cemetery (the Kaw Nation cemetery). I have been involved in Kaw Nation Cultural Committee meetings to try and get all these things taken care of, and have been in touch with Carolyn on an ongoing basis. There will be a memorial service here for him once the date is established for the interment. We have another meeting on Monday in which I hope the final interment date will be set, hopefully for within the next couple of weeks. (Carolyn herself does not plan to attend as it's a fairly long drive and she's still in the midst of taking care of financial and other arrangements since Bob's death.) I'm afraid that, due to all of these other pressing issues, including trying to get my own PhD completed and dealing with the transport and final interment of Bob's remains, I haven't got far enough yet in my planning to figure out what to do with all Bob's academic material from Lawrence, especially physical papers and files, once I get them. Storing some of this at KU or even at the Kaw Nation might be an option, but I agree that there needs to be an organized way to go through this and get it disseminated to all of us who are interested, as well as being archived somewhere accessible to the public - perhaps even the Smithsonian? I will have to do some homework around all this, but not until I've dealt with these other pressing topics first. Perhaps by the time I see everyone in Wisconsin I'll have a better idea of what to do and how to do it. I appreciate the offers of help and will let you know once I have a better handle on it all. Thanks! Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program On Sat, Apr 12, 2014 at 1:18 PM, Catherine Rudin wrote: So, it looks to me like we're talking about at least two different things, maybe three, all of which I would like to see done. (1) A collection of Bob's papers, to be published as a book and/or perhaps a journal special issue. The Siouan archive collection would be a good start on gathering these papers, though there might be others that he never sent in. These would be work that was finished (or close to it) but either not published or published in out-of-the-way places. Someone would need to select which works to include, edit them (as has been pointed out, some may not be quite ready for public consumption), and of course find a publisher. Volunteers? (2) A different collection of less-polished or fragmentary material, to be given to some appropriate archive. I imagine a lot of what Dave K will find in the "garage full of files" will be notes, correspondence, class handouts ... the kind of things that don't belong in a book or journal but that might well be of great interest to future researchers. Yes, things do get buried in archives, as someone said, but at least they are there for some future person to dig up. Bob once sent me a bunch of his old class handouts on comparative Romance; nothing publishable, but invaluable in putting together my own Romance linguistics course. I bet there's lots of similar stuff on Siouan in that garage. Someone (Dave K?) would need to contact an archive & do some sorting... (3) A festschrift in Bob's honor. This would presumably be a selection of papers on Siouan languages by some of us, though it might include a paper or two of Bob's too. There was a suggestion earlier that it could serve as a venue for some of the papers from the abandoned Comparative Siouan Syntax project. This one would take a fair amount of cat-herding, getting people to send papers in by some reasonable deadline, selecting, editing, finding a publisher -- lots of work, but seems well worth doing. Let's talk about all of these in Madison. To answer Meredith's question -- I think we should have a fairly good chunk of time (at least an hour??? perhaps at the end of an afternoon so it could run as long as needed?) Will there be a separate chance to talk about Bob's life and what he meant to us all, or are you picturing rolling a memorial together with talking about publication plans? Sorry to go on at such length -- the thread seems to be getting a bit fragmented and I'm hoping to gather it back together. Catherine >>> Marianne Mithun 04/12/14 11:22 AM >>> I completely agree with David. There is so much there, and when I've asked Bob about various things, he's come up with handouts from 25 years earlier, and papers from decades before or recently, all of them so valuable. A tricky call of course. How many of us would like our unfinished work out there. But so much of Bob's work was really finished. Marianne --On Saturday, April 12, 2014 7:34 AM -0600 ROOD DAVID S wrote: > Dave, if Carolyn is willing, I think it would be much better to try to > arrange for a book or a series of journal publications (e.g. a special > issue of IJAL) rather than an archive. Things get buried in archives. > However, I know that a lot of what Bob circulated to us was stuff he > considered unfinished. The extent to which anyone else would consider > that work publishable needs to be discussed with Carolyn. > > Best, > David > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > On Fri, 11 Apr 2014, David Kaufman wrote: > >> I don't know if Bob expressed such an interest, at least not to me, and >> possibly not to Carolyn either (she didn't mention it). I'd have to look >> into how we would go about submitting papers to these organizations for >> their archives. Any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated. >> >> Dave >> >> David Kaufman >> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 1:26 PM, David Costa >> wrote: >> >>> Did Bob ever express a preference as to where his papers should end up? >>> I would assume either the NAA or the APS would be best... >>> >>> Dave Costa >>> >>> >>> Hi David and all, >>> >>> Sorry to hear David that you won't be able to make it to the SCLC this >>> year. >>> >>> I know we have talked about doing a Festschrift in Bob's honor, and this >>> is certainly something we can discuss at the meeting. Hopefully our >>> organizers can set aside some time on the schedule so we can all >>> participate in this discussion. >>> >>> As for the CSD, I think it's a great idea to have it finalized and >>> published in some form, either electronically or in print, or both. >>> >>> As concerns Bob's unpublished papers and computer files, Carolyn, Bob's >>> wife, and I have been in touch fairly regularly. Even before Bob's >>> death, she said that she and Bob had discussed it and thought it would >>> be best that I come up to their house and "clean out" his garage full >>> of files, books, etc. Also, I plan to take a USB drive and download as >>> much of his computer files as possible, at least some of which I know >>> pertain to Kaw. I'll be happy to distribute whatever I find pertaining >>> to other Siouan languages to those of you who want it. I'm hoping to >>> go up and do this in the next couple of months, possibly in early June >>> or so before it gets too hot. I know Carolyn is thinking about selling >>> the house and moving up to be with family in Wisconsin, so this >>> cleaning out will have to be done fairly soon anyway. >>> >>> Anyway, I'll keep everyone posted as plans for these things become more >>> concrete. Things are a bit crazy for me right now as I work full-time >>> for the Kaw Nation and try to finish my dissertation without yet having >>> another committee member to substitute for Bob. I hope to defend in >>> May, but I'm still awaiting final word on a new committee member and >>> date from my advisor. >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> David Kaufman >>> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >>> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 12:27 PM, ROOD DAVID S >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi, everyone, >>>> My family schedule for at least part of the summer has finally >>>> settled down, and I regret that it precludes me from attending the SCLC >>>> again this year. The earliest I could get to Madison would be >>>> mid-afternoon on Saturday, hardly the appropriate time for >>>> participating in the meeting. >>>> >>>> I am very much interested in what is decided about honoring Bob >>>> Rankin, however, and in what might be done to make his huge >>>> contribution to the history of Siouan and the structure of Dhegiah >>>> part of a permanent record. I know he has many papers that have never >>>> been published, as well as many that are published here and there in >>>> places we don't always know about. As early as 1984, at the workshop >>>> that launched the Comparative Dictionary project, I proposed a >>>> "collection of papers" volume that would be a place for his work (and >>>> others), but that has never materialized. Moreover, for the last few >>>> years Bob was the major player in the evolution of the >>>> Comparative Dictionary. As most of you know, Iren Hartmann at the >>>> MPI-Leipzig is working on creating a usable digital verson of the CSD. >>>> Of the original 5 participants (John Koontz, Wes Jones, Dick Carter, >>>> Rankin and me) in the project, I guess I'm the only one who is still >>>> interested and available, so I'm going to work with Iren to see if >>>> that can't be finalized and formalized. There is quite a bit of >>>> urgency here, because as many of you know, the structure of the MPI in >>>> Leipzig will change dramatically in May of 2015, and they will likely >>>> no longer be interested in supporting Iren's work. >>>> >>>> If any of you have any thoughts on how best to move forward >>>> with either Bob's legacy or the CSD, please discuss them at >>>> the meeting and keep me informed. I don't feel like I know Carolyn >>>> well enough to approach her about any of this; perhaps one of you >>>> would be willing to help with that. >>>> >>>> Best wishes to all for a fruitful and fun meeting. >>>> >>>> David >>>> >>>> David S. Rood >>>> Dept. of Linguistics >>>> Univ. of Colorado >>>> 295 UCB >>>> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >>>> USA >>>> rood at colorado.edu >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Sun Apr 13 00:53:33 2014 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 19:53:33 -0500 Subject: regrets and thoughts In-Reply-To: <53496DC00200008E000B1E86@hermes.wsc.edu> Message-ID: Catherine, My dissertation is essentially written. It's getting a new committee member and defense date that seem to be the major hang-ups. Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program On Sat, Apr 12, 2014 at 4:45 PM, Catherine Rudin wrote: > Dave -- WRITE YOUR DISSERTATION!!!!! :-) > > >>> David Kaufman 4/12/2014 2:01 PM >>> > Just to follow up here, we are also working on trying to get Bob's > remains (ashes) transported from Kansas City to Oklahoma for interment at > the Washunga Cemetery (the Kaw Nation cemetery). I have been involved in > Kaw Nation Cultural Committee meetings to try and get all these things > taken care of, and have been in touch with Carolyn on an ongoing basis. > There will be a memorial service here for him once the date is established > for the interment. We have another meeting on Monday in which I hope the > final interment date will be set, hopefully for within the next couple of > weeks. (Carolyn herself does not plan to attend as it's a fairly long drive > and she's still in the midst of taking care of financial and other > arrangements since Bob's death.) I'm afraid that, due to all of these other > pressing issues, including trying to get my own PhD completed and dealing > with the transport and final interment of Bob's remains, I haven't got far > enough yet in my planning to figure out what to do with all Bob's academic > material from Lawrence, especially physical papers and files, once I get > them. Storing some of this at KU or even at the Kaw Nation might be an > option, but I agree that there needs to be an organized way to go through > this and get it disseminated to all of us who are interested, as well as > being archived somewhere accessible to the public - perhaps even the > Smithsonian? I will have to do some homework around all this, but not until > I've dealt with these other pressing topics first. Perhaps by the time I > see everyone in Wisconsin I'll have a better idea of what to do and how to > do it. I appreciate the offers of help and will let you know once I have a > better handle on it all. Thanks! > > Dave > > David Kaufman > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > > On Sat, Apr 12, 2014 at 1:18 PM, Catherine Rudin wrote: > >> So, it looks to me like we're talking about at least two different >> things, maybe three, all of which I would like to see done. >> >> (1) A collection of Bob's papers, to be published as a book and/or >> perhaps a journal special issue. The Siouan archive collection would be a >> good start on gathering these papers, though there might be others that he >> never sent in. These would be work that was finished (or close to it) but >> either not published or published in out-of-the-way places. Someone would >> need to select which works to include, edit them (as has been pointed out, >> some may not be quite ready for public consumption), and of course find a >> publisher. Volunteers? >> >> (2) A different collection of less-polished or fragmentary material, to >> be given to some appropriate archive. I imagine a lot of what Dave K will >> find in the "garage full of files" will be notes, correspondence, class >> handouts ... the kind of things that don't belong in a book or journal but >> that might well be of great interest to future researchers. Yes, things do >> get buried in archives, as someone said, but at least they are there for >> some future person to dig up. Bob once sent me a bunch of his old class >> handouts on comparative Romance; nothing publishable, but invaluable in >> putting together my own Romance linguistics course. I bet there's lots of >> similar stuff on Siouan in that garage. Someone (Dave K?) would need to >> contact an archive & do some sorting... >> >> (3) A festschrift in Bob's honor. This would presumably be a selection of >> papers on Siouan languages by some of us, though it might include a paper >> or two of Bob's too. There was a suggestion earlier that it could serve as >> a venue for some of the papers from the abandoned Comparative Siouan Syntax >> project. This one would take a fair amount of cat-herding, getting people >> to send papers in by some reasonable deadline, selecting, editing, finding >> a publisher -- lots of work, but seems well worth doing. >> >> Let's talk about all of these in Madison. To answer Meredith's question >> -- I think we should have a fairly good chunk of time (at least an hour??? >> perhaps at the end of an afternoon so it could run as long as needed?) Will >> there be a separate chance to talk about Bob's life and what he meant to us >> all, or are you picturing rolling a memorial together with talking about >> publication plans? >> >> Sorry to go on at such length -- the thread seems to be getting a bit >> fragmented and I'm hoping to gather it back together. >> Catherine >> >> >>> Marianne Mithun 04/12/14 11:22 AM >>> >> I completely agree with David. There is so much there, and when I've >> asked >> Bob about various things, he's come up with handouts from 25 years >> earlier, >> and papers from decades before or recently, all of them so valuable. A >> tricky call of course. How many of us would like our unfinished work out >> there. But so much of Bob's work was really finished. >> >> Marianne >> >> --On Saturday, April 12, 2014 7:34 AM -0600 ROOD DAVID S >> wrote: >> >> > Dave, if Carolyn is willing, I think it would be much better to try to >> > arrange for a book or a series of journal publications (e.g. a special >> > issue of IJAL) rather than an archive. Things get buried in archives. >> > However, I know that a lot of what Bob circulated to us was stuff he >> > considered unfinished. The extent to which anyone else would consider >> > that work publishable needs to be discussed with Carolyn. >> > >> > Best, >> > David >> > >> > David S. Rood >> > Dept. of Linguistics >> > Univ. of Colorado >> > 295 UCB >> > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >> > USA >> > rood at colorado.edu >> > >> > On Fri, 11 Apr 2014, David Kaufman wrote: >> > >> >> I don't know if Bob expressed such an interest, at least not to me, and >> >> possibly not to Carolyn either (she didn't mention it). I'd have to >> look >> >> into how we would go about submitting papers to these organizations for >> >> their archives. Any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated. >> >> >> >> Dave >> >> >> >> David Kaufman >> >> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >> >> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 1:26 PM, David Costa >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> Did Bob ever express a preference as to where his papers should end >> up? >> >>> I would assume either the NAA or the APS would be best... >> >>> >> >>> Dave Costa >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Hi David and all, >> >>> >> >>> Sorry to hear David that you won't be able to make it to the SCLC this >> >>> year. >> >>> >> >>> I know we have talked about doing a Festschrift in Bob's honor, and >> this >> >>> is certainly something we can discuss at the meeting. Hopefully our >> >>> organizers can set aside some time on the schedule so we can all >> >>> participate in this discussion. >> >>> >> >>> As for the CSD, I think it's a great idea to have it finalized and >> >>> published in some form, either electronically or in print, or both. >> >>> >> >>> As concerns Bob's unpublished papers and computer files, Carolyn, >> Bob's >> >>> wife, and I have been in touch fairly regularly. Even before Bob's >> >>> death, she said that she and Bob had discussed it and thought it would >> >>> be best that I come up to their house and "clean out" his garage full >> >>> of files, books, etc. Also, I plan to take a USB drive and download as >> >>> much of his computer files as possible, at least some of which I know >> >>> pertain to Kaw. I'll be happy to distribute whatever I find pertaining >> >>> to other Siouan languages to those of you who want it. I'm hoping to >> >>> go up and do this in the next couple of months, possibly in early June >> >>> or so before it gets too hot. I know Carolyn is thinking about selling >> >>> the house and moving up to be with family in Wisconsin, so this >> >>> cleaning out will have to be done fairly soon anyway. >> >>> >> >>> Anyway, I'll keep everyone posted as plans for these things become >> more >> >>> concrete. Things are a bit crazy for me right now as I work full-time >> >>> for the Kaw Nation and try to finish my dissertation without yet >> having >> >>> another committee member to substitute for Bob. I hope to defend in >> >>> May, but I'm still awaiting final word on a new committee member and >> >>> date from my advisor. >> >>> >> >>> Dave >> >>> >> >>> David Kaufman >> >>> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >> >>> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 12:27 PM, ROOD DAVID S >> >>> wrote: >> >>> >> >>>> Hi, everyone, >> >>>> My family schedule for at least part of the summer has finally >> >>>> settled down, and I regret that it precludes me from attending the >> SCLC >> >>>> again this year. The earliest I could get to Madison would be >> >>>> mid-afternoon on Saturday, hardly the appropriate time for >> >>>> participating in the meeting. >> >>>> >> >>>> I am very much interested in what is decided about honoring Bob >> >>>> Rankin, however, and in what might be done to make his huge >> >>>> contribution to the history of Siouan and the structure of Dhegiah >> >>>> part of a permanent record. I know he has many papers that have never >> >>>> been published, as well as many that are published here and there in >> >>>> places we don't always know about. As early as 1984, at the workshop >> >>>> that launched the Comparative Dictionary project, I proposed a >> >>>> "collection of papers" volume that would be a place for his work (and >> >>>> others), but that has never materialized. Moreover, for the last few >> >>>> years Bob was the major player in the evolution of the >> >>>> Comparative Dictionary. As most of you know, Iren Hartmann at the >> >>>> MPI-Leipzig is working on creating a usable digital verson of the >> CSD. >> >>>> Of the original 5 participants (John Koontz, Wes Jones, Dick Carter, >> >>>> Rankin and me) in the project, I guess I'm the only one who is still >> >>>> interested and available, so I'm going to work with Iren to see if >> >>>> that can't be finalized and formalized. There is quite a bit of >> >>>> urgency here, because as many of you know, the structure of the MPI >> in >> >>>> Leipzig will change dramatically in May of 2015, and they will likely >> >>>> no longer be interested in supporting Iren's work. >> >>>> >> >>>> If any of you have any thoughts on how best to move forward >> >>>> with either Bob's legacy or the CSD, please discuss them at >> >>>> the meeting and keep me informed. I don't feel like I know Carolyn >> >>>> well enough to approach her about any of this; perhaps one of you >> >>>> would be willing to help with that. >> >>>> >> >>>> Best wishes to all for a fruitful and fun meeting. >> >>>> >> >>>> David >> >>>> >> >>>> David S. Rood >> >>>> Dept. of Linguistics >> >>>> Univ. of Colorado >> >>>> 295 UCB >> >>>> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >> >>>> USA >> >>>> rood at colorado.edu >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >> >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Johannes.Helmbrecht at SPRACHLIT.UNI-REGENSBURG.DE Sun Apr 13 10:48:21 2014 From: Johannes.Helmbrecht at SPRACHLIT.UNI-REGENSBURG.DE (Johannes Helmbrecht) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 12:48:21 +0200 Subject: Antw: Festschrift for Bob In-Reply-To: <53493D290200008E000B1E4E@hermes.wsc.edu> Message-ID: Dear Siouanists, I remember that I once had a conversation with Bob on published articles on Siouan languages, and he told me that Siouanists are lazy, they don't publish their stuff, so that so many manuscripts bear the lable "unfinished or unpublished" and are stored somewhere on various computers or even as copies in various shoeboxes. I think, we are all aware of this problem. So in addition to Catherine's proposals, with which I agree, I would like to hint at a possibility we could also discuss in Madison. Many university libraries offer digital open access publikations on their servers. So, perhaps it would be a good idea to get an extra space (perhaps at his home university) for Bob's numerous unfinished or simply unpublished papers which are so valuable for our research on Siouan languages. This does not preclude an extra printed volume - Festschrift - with a selection of papers (the best of Bob's papers so to say). One might even elaborate this idea further. Having server space for all these of Bob's manuscripts or even notes, we could also think of enlarging this space with the stuff John has in his Siouan web archive to bring these repositories together. And in the future, everyone could add his or her "unfinished" paper to this kind of open access archive. With regard to the Comparitive Siouan Linguistics Volume - I very much would like to support this idea in general and also the idea to include Bob's contributions to this project. This would be an opportunity for us to show with our own work that we have learnt so much from Bob, a nice way, I think, to honor his scientific work. I would volunteer for this project, if my help would be considered useful. Best Johannes -- Professor Dr. Johannes Helmbrecht Lehrstuhl für Allgemeine und Vergleichende Sprachwissenschaft Fakultät für Sprach-, Literatur- und Kulturwissenschaften Universität Regensburg Universitätsstrasse 31 D-93053 Regensburg Tel. 0941/943-3388 Tel. 0941/943-3387 (Sekretariat) Fax. 0941/943-2429 Website: www-avs.uni-regensburg.de E-mail: johannes.helmbrecht at sprachlit.uni-regensburg.de >>> Catherine Rudin schrieb am 12.04.2014 um 20:18: > So, it looks to me like we're talking about at least two different things, > maybe three, all of which I would like to see done. > > (1) A collection of Bob's papers, to be published as a book and/or perhaps a > journal special issue. The Siouan archive collection would be a good start on > gathering these papers, though there might be others that he never sent in. > These would be work that was finished (or close to it) but either not > published or published in out-of-the-way places. Someone would need to select > which works to include, edit them (as has been pointed out, some may not be > quite ready for public consumption), and of course find a publisher. > Volunteers? > > (2) A different collection of less-polished or fragmentary material, to be > given to some appropriate archive. I imagine a lot of what Dave K will find > in the "garage full of files" will be notes, correspondence, class handouts > ... the kind of things that don't belong in a book or journal but that might > well be of great interest to future researchers. Yes, things do get buried > in archives, as someone said, but at least they are there for some future > person to dig up. Bob once sent me a bunch of his old class handouts on > comparative Romance; nothing publishable, but invaluable in putting together > my own Romance linguistics course. I bet there's lots of similar stuff on > Siouan in that garage. Someone (Dave K?) would need to contact an archive & > do some sorting... > > (3) A festschrift in Bob's honor. This would presumably be a selection of > papers on Siouan languages by some of us, though it might include a paper or > two of Bob's too. There was a suggestion earlier that it could serve as a > venue for some of the papers from the abandoned Comparative Siouan Syntax > project. This one would take a fair amount of cat-herding, getting people to > send papers in by some reasonable deadline, selecting, editing, finding a > publisher -- lots of work, but seems well worth doing. > > Let's talk about all of these in Madison. To answer Meredith's question -- I > think we should have a fairly good chunk of time (at least an hour??? perhaps > at the end of an afternoon so it could run as long as needed?) Will there be > a separate chance to talk about Bob's life and what he meant to us all, or > are you picturing rolling a memorial together with talking about publication > plans? > > Sorry to go on at such length -- the thread seems to be getting a bit > fragmented and I'm hoping to gather it back together. > Catherine > >>>> Marianne Mithun 04/12/14 11:22 AM >>> > I completely agree with David. There is so much there, and when I've asked > Bob about various things, he's come up with handouts from 25 years earlier, > and papers from decades before or recently, all of them so valuable. A > tricky call of course. How many of us would like our unfinished work out > there. But so much of Bob's work was really finished. > > Marianne > > --On Saturday, April 12, 2014 7:34 AM -0600 ROOD DAVID S > wrote: > >> Dave, if Carolyn is willing, I think it would be much better to try to >> arrange for a book or a series of journal publications (e.g. a special >> issue of IJAL) rather than an archive. Things get buried in archives. >> However, I know that a lot of what Bob circulated to us was stuff he >> considered unfinished. The extent to which anyone else would consider >> that work publishable needs to be discussed with Carolyn. >> >> Best, >> David >> >> David S. Rood >> Dept. of Linguistics >> Univ. of Colorado >> 295 UCB >> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >> USA >> rood at colorado.edu >> >> On Fri, 11 Apr 2014, David Kaufman wrote: >> >>> I don't know if Bob expressed such an interest, at least not to me, and >>> possibly not to Carolyn either (she didn't mention it). I'd have to look >>> into how we would go about submitting papers to these organizations for >>> their archives. Any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated. >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> David Kaufman >>> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >>> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 1:26 PM, David Costa >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Did Bob ever express a preference as to where his papers should end up? >>>> I would assume either the NAA or the APS would be best... >>>> >>>> Dave Costa >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi David and all, >>>> >>>> Sorry to hear David that you won't be able to make it to the SCLC this >>>> year. >>>> >>>> I know we have talked about doing a Festschrift in Bob's honor, and this >>>> is certainly something we can discuss at the meeting. Hopefully our >>>> organizers can set aside some time on the schedule so we can all >>>> participate in this discussion. >>>> >>>> As for the CSD, I think it's a great idea to have it finalized and >>>> published in some form, either electronically or in print, or both. >>>> >>>> As concerns Bob's unpublished papers and computer files, Carolyn, Bob's >>>> wife, and I have been in touch fairly regularly. Even before Bob's >>>> death, she said that she and Bob had discussed it and thought it would >>>> be best that I come up to their house and "clean out" his garage full >>>> of files, books, etc. Also, I plan to take a USB drive and download as >>>> much of his computer files as possible, at least some of which I know >>>> pertain to Kaw. I'll be happy to distribute whatever I find pertaining >>>> to other Siouan languages to those of you who want it. I'm hoping to >>>> go up and do this in the next couple of months, possibly in early June >>>> or so before it gets too hot. I know Carolyn is thinking about selling >>>> the house and moving up to be with family in Wisconsin, so this >>>> cleaning out will have to be done fairly soon anyway. >>>> >>>> Anyway, I'll keep everyone posted as plans for these things become more >>>> concrete. Things are a bit crazy for me right now as I work full-time >>>> for the Kaw Nation and try to finish my dissertation without yet having >>>> another committee member to substitute for Bob. I hope to defend in >>>> May, but I'm still awaiting final word on a new committee member and >>>> date from my advisor. >>>> >>>> Dave >>>> >>>> David Kaufman >>>> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >>>> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 12:27 PM, ROOD DAVID S >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi, everyone, >>>>> My family schedule for at least part of the summer has finally >>>>> settled down, and I regret that it precludes me from attending the SCLC >>>>> again this year. The earliest I could get to Madison would be >>>>> mid-afternoon on Saturday, hardly the appropriate time for >>>>> participating in the meeting. >>>>> >>>>> I am very much interested in what is decided about honoring Bob >>>>> Rankin, however, and in what might be done to make his huge >>>>> contribution to the history of Siouan and the structure of Dhegiah >>>>> part of a permanent record. I know he has many papers that have never >>>>> been published, as well as many that are published here and there in >>>>> places we don't always know about. As early as 1984, at the workshop >>>>> that launched the Comparative Dictionary project, I proposed a >>>>> "collection of papers" volume that would be a place for his work (and >>>>> others), but that has never materialized. Moreover, for the last few >>>>> years Bob was the major player in the evolution of the >>>>> Comparative Dictionary. As most of you know, Iren Hartmann at the >>>>> MPI-Leipzig is working on creating a usable digital verson of the CSD. >>>>> Of the original 5 participants (John Koontz, Wes Jones, Dick Carter, >>>>> Rankin and me) in the project, I guess I'm the only one who is still >>>>> interested and available, so I'm going to work with Iren to see if >>>>> that can't be finalized and formalized. There is quite a bit of >>>>> urgency here, because as many of you know, the structure of the MPI in >>>>> Leipzig will change dramatically in May of 2015, and they will likely >>>>> no longer be interested in supporting Iren's work. >>>>> >>>>> If any of you have any thoughts on how best to move forward >>>>> with either Bob's legacy or the CSD, please discuss them at >>>>> the meeting and keep me informed. I don't feel like I know Carolyn >>>>> well enough to approach her about any of this; perhaps one of you >>>>> would be willing to help with that. >>>>> >>>>> Best wishes to all for a fruitful and fun meeting. >>>>> >>>>> David >>>>> >>>>> David S. Rood >>>>> Dept. of Linguistics >>>>> Univ. of Colorado >>>>> 295 UCB >>>>> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >>>>> USA >>>>> rood at colorado.edu >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> From ishna00 at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Apr 13 11:26:46 2014 From: ishna00 at HOTMAIL.COM (Charles Thode) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 06:26:46 -0500 Subject: Alice translation In-Reply-To: <002601cf5697$8d628c10$a827a430$@com> Message-ID: It's funny to see this request as I attempted to translate it into Lakhota in 1996. My friend (a native speaker) and I got through one paragraph before we decided "This ain't gonna happen". I'd be willing to proofread for anyone who tries! :-) Chuck Thode Dalian, Liaoning, PRC Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 16:38:29 -0500 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Subject: Re: Alice translation To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu My wife and I were out this morning when the idea of "mysterious/sacred" came to mind and we discussed it for a bit. I like this approach if the idea of "curious" is "weird/strange" rather than "I want to know." What I am lacking here is the cultural distinction (if any) between mysterious, sacred, medicine, etc. in these languages. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jan Ullrich Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2014 8:26 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Alice translation >> Alice was a Victorian-age English girl. When she fell down the rabbit hole and sampled the mushrooms, she said: “Curiouser and curiouser.” A modern day American girl might communicate the same message with the formula: “Well, this is really getting weird.” Here, the same substantive message can be communicated at least two different ways in the same language without using any of the same words or grammatical devices.>>> In the mouths of fluent speakers, Siouan languages most likely had ways of expressing this same message. It is not culturally specific; anybody, anywhere, might have occasion to utter it. Lexically, we might want to check to see if we have one or more words meaning “curious”, in the sense of ‘strange’, ‘odd’, ‘weird’, or ‘contrary to expectations’. If not, some word in the language probably got overlooked, and if we still have speakers we should search for it. Rorry,I think that in the context you described the expression is to a high degree synonymous with the words “mysterious” and perhaps “magical”. So one of the possible free translations of the sentence into Lakota is this: “Sáŋm wakháŋ áye” (more / mysterious / it is becoming gradually or changing cumulatively). Jan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.rood at COLORADO.EDU Sun Apr 13 13:41:06 2014 From: david.rood at COLORADO.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 07:41:06 -0600 Subject: regrets and thoughts In-Reply-To: <53496DC00200008E000B1E86@hermes.wsc.edu> Message-ID: I will be glad to help with the editing of papers, and even with the selection if people think it's appropriate. Remember 20 years of IJAL. I'm very happy to hear from Randy and from John Boyle and Willem that you have organized collections. I probably have most of the papers, too, but I sort such things topically, so it might be hard to be sure I found everything. One decision that clearly needs to be made at the Wisconsin meeting is whether or not pursuing a Rankin Anthology is appropriate. I'm pretty sure that we have enough expertise among us to find a publisher and make it a good tribute. I am less enthusiastic about volunteering to help with a festschrift, but that, too, would be a valuable undertaking. Best, David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Sat, 12 Apr 2014, Catherine Rudin wrote: > Dave -- WRITE YOUR DISSERTATION!!!!! :-) > >>>> David Kaufman 4/12/2014 2:01 PM >>> > Just to follow up here, we are also working on trying to get Bob's remains (ashes) transported from Kansas City to Oklahoma for interment at the Washunga Cemetery (the Kaw Nation cemetery). I have been involved in Kaw Nation Cultural Committee meetings to try and get all these things taken care of, and have been in touch with Carolyn on an ongoing basis. There will be a memorial service here for him once the date is established for the interment. We have another meeting on Monday in which I hope the final interment date will be set, hopefully for within the next couple of weeks. (Carolyn herself does not plan to attend as it's a fairly long drive and she's still in the midst of taking care of financial and other arrangements since Bob's death.) I'm afraid that, due to all of these other pressing issues, including trying to get my own PhD completed and dealing with the transport and final interment of Bob's remains, I haven't got far enough yet in my planning to figure out what to do with all Bob's academic material from Lawrence, especially physical papers and files, once I get them. Storing some of this at KU or even at the Kaw Nation might be an option, but I agree that there needs to be an organized way to go through this and get it disseminated to all of us who are interested, as well as being archived somewhere accessible to the public - perhaps even the Smithsonian? I will have to do some homework around all this, but not until I've dealt with these other pressing topics first. Perhaps by the time I see everyone in Wisconsin I'll have a better idea of what to do and how to do it. I appreciate the offers of help and will let you know once I have a better handle on it all. Thanks! > > Dave > > David Kaufman > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > > On Sat, Apr 12, 2014 at 1:18 PM, Catherine Rudin wrote: > > > So, it looks to me like we're talking about at least two different things, maybe three, all of which I would like to see done. > > (1) A collection of Bob's papers, to be published as a book and/or perhaps a journal special issue. The Siouan archive collection would be a good start on gathering these papers, though there might be others that he never sent in. These would be work that was finished (or close to it) but either not published or published in out-of-the-way places. Someone would need to select which works to include, edit them (as has been pointed out, some may not be quite ready for public consumption), and of course find a publisher. Volunteers? > > (2) A different collection of less-polished or fragmentary material, to be given to some appropriate archive. I imagine a lot of what Dave K will find in the "garage full of files" will be notes, correspondence, class handouts ... the kind of things that don't belong in a book or journal but that might well be of great interest to future researchers. Yes, things do get buried in archives, as someone said, but at least they are there for some future person to dig up. Bob once sent me a bunch of his old class handouts on comparative Romance; nothing publishable, but invaluable in putting together my own Romance linguistics course. I bet there's lots of similar stuff on Siouan in that garage. Someone (Dave K?) would need to contact an archive & do some sorting... > > (3) A festschrift in Bob's honor. This would presumably be a selection of papers on Siouan languages by some of us, though it might include a paper or two of Bob's too. There was a suggestion earlier that it could serve as a venue for some of the papers from the abandoned Comparative Siouan Syntax project. This one would take a fair amount of cat-herding, getting people to send papers in by some reasonable deadline, selecting, editing, finding a publisher -- lots of work, but seems well worth doing. > > Let's talk about all of these in Madison. To answer Meredith's question -- I think we should have a fairly good chunk of time (at least an hour??? perhaps at the end of an afternoon so it could run as long as needed?) Will there be a separate chance to talk about Bob's life and what he meant to us all, or are you picturing rolling a memorial together with talking about publication plans? > > Sorry to go on at such length -- the thread seems to be getting a bit fragmented and I'm hoping to gather it back together. > Catherine > >>>> Marianne Mithun 04/12/14 11:22 AM >>> > I completely agree with David. There is so much there, and when I've asked > Bob about various things, he's come up with handouts from 25 years earlier, > and papers from decades before or recently, all of them so valuable. A > tricky call of course. How many of us would like our unfinished work out > there. But so much of Bob's work was really finished. > > Marianne > > --On Saturday, April 12, 2014 7:34 AM -0600 ROOD DAVID S > wrote: > >> Dave, if Carolyn is willing, I think it would be much better to try to >> arrange for a book or a series of journal publications (e.g. a special >> issue of IJAL) rather than an archive. Things get buried in archives. >> However, I know that a lot of what Bob circulated to us was stuff he >> considered unfinished. The extent to which anyone else would consider >> that work publishable needs to be discussed with Carolyn. >> >> Best, >> David >> >> David S. Rood >> Dept. of Linguistics >> Univ. of Colorado >> 295 UCB >> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >> USA >> rood at colorado.edu >> >> On Fri, 11 Apr 2014, David Kaufman wrote: >> >>> I don't know if Bob expressed such an interest, at least not to me, and >>> possibly not to Carolyn either (she didn't mention it). I'd have to look >>> into how we would go about submitting papers to these organizations for >>> their archives. Any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated. >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> David Kaufman >>> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >>> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 1:26 PM, David Costa >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Did Bob ever express a preference as to where his papers should end up? >>>> I would assume either the NAA or the APS would be best... >>>> >>>> Dave Costa >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi David and all, >>>> >>>> Sorry to hear David that you won't be able to make it to the SCLC this >>>> year. >>>> >>>> I know we have talked about doing a Festschrift in Bob's honor, and this >>>> is certainly something we can discuss at the meeting. Hopefully our >>>> organizers can set aside some time on the schedule so we can all >>>> participate in this discussion. >>>> >>>> As for the CSD, I think it's a great idea to have it finalized and >>>> published in some form, either electronically or in print, or both. >>>> >>>> As concerns Bob's unpublished papers and computer files, Carolyn, Bob's >>>> wife, and I have been in touch fairly regularly. Even before Bob's >>>> death, she said that she and Bob had discussed it and thought it would >>>> be best that I come up to their house and "clean out" his garage full >>>> of files, books, etc. Also, I plan to take a USB drive and download as >>>> much of his computer files as possible, at least some of which I know >>>> pertain to Kaw. I'll be happy to distribute whatever I find pertaining >>>> to other Siouan languages to those of you who want it. I'm hoping to >>>> go up and do this in the next couple of months, possibly in early June >>>> or so before it gets too hot. I know Carolyn is thinking about selling >>>> the house and moving up to be with family in Wisconsin, so this >>>> cleaning out will have to be done fairly soon anyway. >>>> >>>> Anyway, I'll keep everyone posted as plans for these things become more >>>> concrete. Things are a bit crazy for me right now as I work full-time >>>> for the Kaw Nation and try to finish my dissertation without yet having >>>> another committee member to substitute for Bob. I hope to defend in >>>> May, but I'm still awaiting final word on a new committee member and >>>> date from my advisor. >>>> >>>> Dave >>>> >>>> David Kaufman >>>> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >>>> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 12:27 PM, ROOD DAVID S >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi, everyone, >>>>> My family schedule for at least part of the summer has finally >>>>> settled down, and I regret that it precludes me from attending the SCLC >>>>> again this year. The earliest I could get to Madison would be >>>>> mid-afternoon on Saturday, hardly the appropriate time for >>>>> participating in the meeting. >>>>> >>>>> I am very much interested in what is decided about honoring Bob >>>>> Rankin, however, and in what might be done to make his huge >>>>> contribution to the history of Siouan and the structure of Dhegiah >>>>> part of a permanent record. I know he has many papers that have never >>>>> been published, as well as many that are published here and there in >>>>> places we don't always know about. As early as 1984, at the workshop >>>>> that launched the Comparative Dictionary project, I proposed a >>>>> "collection of papers" volume that would be a place for his work (and >>>>> others), but that has never materialized. Moreover, for the last few >>>>> years Bob was the major player in the evolution of the >>>>> Comparative Dictionary. As most of you know, Iren Hartmann at the >>>>> MPI-Leipzig is working on creating a usable digital verson of the CSD. >>>>> Of the original 5 participants (John Koontz, Wes Jones, Dick Carter, >>>>> Rankin and me) in the project, I guess I'm the only one who is still >>>>> interested and available, so I'm going to work with Iren to see if >>>>> that can't be finalized and formalized. There is quite a bit of >>>>> urgency here, because as many of you know, the structure of the MPI in >>>>> Leipzig will change dramatically in May of 2015, and they will likely >>>>> no longer be interested in supporting Iren's work. >>>>> >>>>> If any of you have any thoughts on how best to move forward >>>>> with either Bob's legacy or the CSD, please discuss them at >>>>> the meeting and keep me informed. I don't feel like I know Carolyn >>>>> well enough to approach her about any of this; perhaps one of you >>>>> would be willing to help with that. >>>>> >>>>> Best wishes to all for a fruitful and fun meeting. >>>>> >>>>> David >>>>> >>>>> David S. Rood >>>>> Dept. of Linguistics >>>>> Univ. of Colorado >>>>> 295 UCB >>>>> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >>>>> USA >>>>> rood at colorado.edu >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> > > > From WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU Sun Apr 13 17:33:37 2014 From: WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU (De Reuse, Willem) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 17:33:37 +0000 Subject: Antw: Festschrift for Bob In-Reply-To: <534A8795020000400005F09B@gwsmtp1.uni-regensburg.de> Message-ID: Hmm, let us take Bob's statements that Siouanists are lazy with a grain of salt. I don't know about all fields of Native American linguistics, but in the field of Athabascan, we have the same problem! And Athabascanists won't tolerate anyone calling them lazy! :) Willem ________________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics on behalf of Johannes Helmbrecht Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2014 5:48 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Antw: Festschrift for Bob Dear Siouanists, I remember that I once had a conversation with Bob on published articles on Siouan languages, and he told me that Siouanists are lazy, they don't publish their stuff, so that so many manuscripts bear the lable "unfinished or unpublished" and are stored somewhere on various computers or even as copies in various shoeboxes. I think, we are all aware of this problem. From WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU Sun Apr 13 17:42:46 2014 From: WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU (De Reuse, Willem) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 17:42:46 +0000 Subject: Helping with editing of papers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Since I was one of the earlier Siouanist students of Bob's, I would be happy to help edit a collection of his unpublished papers, preferrably after 2014. I would not have the time writing a paper for a Festschrift, though. Athabaskan (THE language family for masochists!) keeps me pretty busy these days as well. But I treasure the memory of Bob (and Ken Miner as well), who were the people who encouraged me to become an early Siouanist. Willem ________________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics on behalf of ROOD DAVID S Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2014 8:41 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: regrets and thoughts I will be glad to help with the editing of papers, and even with the selection if people think it's appropriate. Remember 20 years of IJAL. I'm very happy to hear from Randy and from John Boyle and Willem that you have organized collections. I probably have most of the papers, too, but I sort such things topically, so it might be hard to be sure I found everything. One decision that clearly needs to be made at the Wisconsin meeting is whether or not pursuing a Rankin Anthology is appropriate. I'm pretty sure that we have enough expertise among us to find a publisher and make it a good tribute. I am less enthusiastic about volunteering to help with a festschrift, but that, too, would be a valuable undertaking. Best, David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Sat, 12 Apr 2014, Catherine Rudin wrote: > Dave -- WRITE YOUR DISSERTATION!!!!! :-) > >>>> David Kaufman 4/12/2014 2:01 PM >>> > Just to follow up here, we are also working on trying to get Bob's remains (ashes) transported from Kansas City to Oklahoma for interment at the Washunga Cemetery (the Kaw Nation cemetery). I have been involved in Kaw Nation Cultural Committee meetings to try and get all these things taken care of, and have been in touch with Carolyn on an ongoing basis. There will be a memorial service here for him once the date is established for the interment. We have another meeting on Monday in which I hope the final interment date will be set, hopefully for within the next couple of weeks. (Carolyn herself does not plan to attend as it's a fairly long drive and she's still in the midst of taking care of financial and other arrangements since Bob's death.) I'm afraid that, due to all of these other pressing issues, including trying to get my own PhD completed and dealing with the transport and final interment of Bob's remains, I haven't got far enough yet in my planning to figure out ! what to do with all Bob's academic material from Lawrence, especially physical papers and files, once I get them. Storing some of this at KU or even at the Kaw Nation might be an option, but I agree that there needs to be an organized way to go through this and get it disseminated to all of us who are interested, as well as being archived somewhere accessible to the public - perhaps even the Smithsonian? I will have to do some homework around all this, but not until I've dealt with these other pressing topics first. Perhaps by the time I see everyone in Wisconsin I'll have a better idea of what to do and how to do it. I appreciate the offers of help and will let you know once I have a better handle on it all. Thanks! > > Dave > > David Kaufman > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > > On Sat, Apr 12, 2014 at 1:18 PM, Catherine Rudin wrote: > > > So, it looks to me like we're talking about at least two different things, maybe three, all of which I would like to see done. > > (1) A collection of Bob's papers, to be published as a book and/or perhaps a journal special issue. The Siouan archive collection would be a good start on gathering these papers, though there might be others that he never sent in. These would be work that was finished (or close to it) but either not published or published in out-of-the-way places. Someone would need to select which works to include, edit them (as has been pointed out, some may not be quite ready for public consumption), and of course find a publisher. Volunteers? > > (2) A different collection of less-polished or fragmentary material, to be given to some appropriate archive. I imagine a lot of what Dave K will find in the "garage full of files" will be notes, correspondence, class handouts ... the kind of things that don't belong in a book or journal but that might well be of great interest to future researchers. Yes, things do get buried in archives, as someone said, but at least they are there for some future person to dig up. Bob once sent me a bunch of his old class handouts on comparative Romance; nothing publishable, but invaluable in putting together my own Romance linguistics course. I bet there's lots of similar stuff on Siouan in that garage. Someone (Dave K?) would need to contact an archive & do some sorting... > > (3) A festschrift in Bob's honor. This would presumably be a selection of papers on Siouan languages by some of us, though it might include a paper or two of Bob's too. There was a suggestion earlier that it could serve as a venue for some of the papers from the abandoned Comparative Siouan Syntax project. This one would take a fair amount of cat-herding, getting people to send papers in by some reasonable deadline, selecting, editing, finding a publisher -- lots of work, but seems well worth doing. > > Let's talk about all of these in Madison. To answer Meredith's question -- I think we should have a fairly good chunk of time (at least an hour??? perhaps at the end of an afternoon so it could run as long as needed?) Will there be a separate chance to talk about Bob's life and what he meant to us all, or are you picturing rolling a memorial together with talking about publication plans? > > Sorry to go on at such length -- the thread seems to be getting a bit fragmented and I'm hoping to gather it back together. > Catherine > >>>> Marianne Mithun 04/12/14 11:22 AM >>> > I completely agree with David. There is so much there, and when I've asked > Bob about various things, he's come up with handouts from 25 years earlier, > and papers from decades before or recently, all of them so valuable. A > tricky call of course. How many of us would like our unfinished work out > there. But so much of Bob's work was really finished. > > Marianne > > --On Saturday, April 12, 2014 7:34 AM -0600 ROOD DAVID S > wrote: > >> Dave, if Carolyn is willing, I think it would be much better to try to >> arrange for a book or a series of journal publications (e.g. a special >> issue of IJAL) rather than an archive. Things get buried in archives. >> However, I know that a lot of what Bob circulated to us was stuff he >> considered unfinished. The extent to which anyone else would consider >> that work publishable needs to be discussed with Carolyn. >> >> Best, >> David >> >> David S. Rood >> Dept. of Linguistics >> Univ. of Colorado >> 295 UCB >> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >> USA >> rood at colorado.edu >> >> On Fri, 11 Apr 2014, David Kaufman wrote: >> >>> I don't know if Bob expressed such an interest, at least not to me, and >>> possibly not to Carolyn either (she didn't mention it). I'd have to look >>> into how we would go about submitting papers to these organizations for >>> their archives. Any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated. >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> David Kaufman >>> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >>> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 1:26 PM, David Costa >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Did Bob ever express a preference as to where his papers should end up? >>>> I would assume either the NAA or the APS would be best... >>>> >>>> Dave Costa >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi David and all, >>>> >>>> Sorry to hear David that you won't be able to make it to the SCLC this >>>> year. >>>> >>>> I know we have talked about doing a Festschrift in Bob's honor, and this >>>> is certainly something we can discuss at the meeting. Hopefully our >>>> organizers can set aside some time on the schedule so we can all >>>> participate in this discussion. >>>> >>>> As for the CSD, I think it's a great idea to have it finalized and >>>> published in some form, either electronically or in print, or both. >>>> >>>> As concerns Bob's unpublished papers and computer files, Carolyn, Bob's >>>> wife, and I have been in touch fairly regularly. Even before Bob's >>>> death, she said that she and Bob had discussed it and thought it would >>>> be best that I come up to their house and "clean out" his garage full >>>> of files, books, etc. Also, I plan to take a USB drive and download as >>>> much of his computer files as possible, at least some of which I know >>>> pertain to Kaw. I'll be happy to distribute whatever I find pertaining >>>> to other Siouan languages to those of you who want it. I'm hoping to >>>> go up and do this in the next couple of months, possibly in early June >>>> or so before it gets too hot. I know Carolyn is thinking about selling >>>> the house and moving up to be with family in Wisconsin, so this >>>> cleaning out will have to be done fairly soon anyway. >>>> >>>> Anyway, I'll keep everyone posted as plans for these things become more >>>> concrete. Things are a bit crazy for me right now as I work full-time >>>> for the Kaw Nation and try to finish my dissertation without yet having >>>> another committee member to substitute for Bob. I hope to defend in >>>> May, but I'm still awaiting final word on a new committee member and >>>> date from my advisor. >>>> >>>> Dave >>>> >>>> David Kaufman >>>> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >>>> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 12:27 PM, ROOD DAVID S >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi, everyone, >>>>> My family schedule for at least part of the summer has finally >>>>> settled down, and I regret that it precludes me from attending the SCLC >>>>> again this year. The earliest I could get to Madison would be >>>>> mid-afternoon on Saturday, hardly the appropriate time for >>>>> participating in the meeting. >>>>> >>>>> I am very much interested in what is decided about honoring Bob >>>>> Rankin, however, and in what might be done to make his huge >>>>> contribution to the history of Siouan and the structure of Dhegiah >>>>> part of a permanent record. I know he has many papers that have never >>>>> been published, as well as many that are published here and there in >>>>> places we don't always know about. As early as 1984, at the workshop >>>>> that launched the Comparative Dictionary project, I proposed a >>>>> "collection of papers" volume that would be a place for his work (and >>>>> others), but that has never materialized. Moreover, for the last few >>>>> years Bob was the major player in the evolution of the >>>>> Comparative Dictionary. As most of you know, Iren Hartmann at the >>>>> MPI-Leipzig is working on creating a usable digital verson of the CSD. >>>>> Of the original 5 participants (John Koontz, Wes Jones, Dick Carter, >>>>> Rankin and me) in the project, I guess I'm the only one who is still >>>>> interested and available, so I'm going to work with Iren to see if >>>>> that can't be finalized and formalized. There is quite a bit of >>>>> urgency here, because as many of you know, the structure of the MPI in >>>>> Leipzig will change dramatically in May of 2015, and they will likely >>>>> no longer be interested in supporting Iren's work. >>>>> >>>>> If any of you have any thoughts on how best to move forward >>>>> with either Bob's legacy or the CSD, please discuss them at >>>>> the meeting and keep me informed. I don't feel like I know Carolyn >>>>> well enough to approach her about any of this; perhaps one of you >>>>> would be willing to help with that. >>>>> >>>>> Best wishes to all for a fruitful and fun meeting. >>>>> >>>>> David >>>>> >>>>> David S. Rood >>>>> Dept. of Linguistics >>>>> Univ. of Colorado >>>>> 295 UCB >>>>> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >>>>> USA >>>>> rood at colorado.edu >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> > > > From kathleendshea at gmail.com Mon Apr 14 04:01:50 2014 From: kathleendshea at gmail.com (Kathleen D. Shea) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 23:01:50 -0500 Subject: regrets and thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Siouanists, I'm sorry to be so late registering my thoughts about all of this. I was away from home and tied up with family issues in California from December 23 to early March, and I arrived home to find 2 1/2 months of mail waiting for me and out-of-town visitors. I was able to attend the memorial for Bob on March 11 at KU. It was a very nice, fittingly informal gathering, with refreshments, some flowers, a display of pictures set out on some broadcloth blankets (traditional red and blue) given to him by the Kaws, and a stream of people who knew Bob. For me, it was good to see and talk with many old friends I hadn't seen in years. At the memorial, the chair of KU's linguistics department, Allard Jongman, and his wife, Joan Sereno, also a professor in the department, were there. I mentioned to them that Bob had many unpublished papers that he had generously shared with others that I would like to see published so that they would be readily accessible. Allard suggested that perhaps they could be published as a separate volume of the Kansas Working Papers in Linguistics (KWPL), where Bob has published before. I think that we could discuss this at the upcoming Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference, and I would be happy to volunteer to spearhead this project if everyone thinks this is a good idea. John Boyle and Randy Graczyk have both said that they have almost all of Bob's published and unpublished papers. The call for papers for KWPL has just gone out, and I will forward it separately to the Siouan list for your information. Concerning the publishing of a festschrift honoring Bob, I've often thought, even when he was still alive, that it would be a good idea, but I was not willing to take on the task myself. I agree with Catherine that this could appropriately "serve as a venue for some of the papers from the abandoned Comparative Siouan syntax project." I, too, would like to set aside some time at the conference to discuss this. At least an hour seems appropriate. Even though Bob stressed the necessity of everyone having an executor for academic purposes in their will, he apparently didn't follow his own advice. I've been in touch with Carolyn, Bob's wife, and will be having lunch with her on Thursday. I offered to help her sort through his papers, but she says that she is not only having to decide what to do with his papers, but also having to separate them from his ham radio materials, old medical bills, old c.d.'s and music tapes, and so forth. She's somewhat overwhelmed right now. She mentioned that she thought it might be a good idea to give his papers to the Smithsonian. I told her that many in our field donate their papers and recordings to the APS. Anyway, she asked me to put out the word to the Siouan list, who I said were discussing this very thing, that she would welcome the help of a knowledgeable linguist in organizing his papers. (She says there's also much of his written correspondence, of an academic nature, that could be useful to others if organized.) By the way, at the memorial in March, I invited Carolyn to attend the Siouan and Caddoan conference, especially considering the fact that she's from Wisconsin, where it's being held, and has family there, saying that we'd all be delighted to have her attend, but she said that, for now, she just wants to work at getting her life "back to normal." All in all, it sounds to me as though she's doing fairly well in that respect since she's gone back to work as a biologist at KU full-time. Kathy Shea Sent from my iPad > On Apr 12, 2014, at 2:01 PM, David Kaufman wrote: > > Just to follow up here, we are also working on trying to get Bob's remains (ashes) transported from Kansas City to Oklahoma for interment at the Washunga Cemetery (the Kaw Nation cemetery). I have been involved in Kaw Nation Cultural Committee meetings to try and get all these things taken care of, and have been in touch with Carolyn on an ongoing basis. There will be a memorial service here for him once the date is established for the interment. We have another meeting on Monday in which I hope the final interment date will be set, hopefully for within the next couple of weeks. (Carolyn herself does not plan to attend as it's a fairly long drive and she's still in the midst of taking care of financial and other arrangements since Bob's death.) I'm afraid that, due to all of these other pressing issues, including trying to get my own PhD completed and dealing with the transport and final interment of Bob's remains, I haven't got far enough yet in my planning to figure out what to do with all Bob's academic material from Lawrence, especially physical papers and files, once I get them. Storing some of this at KU or even at the Kaw Nation might be an option, but I agree that there needs to be an organized way to go through this and get it disseminated to all of us who are interested, as well as being archived somewhere accessible to the public - perhaps even the Smithsonian? I will have to do some homework around all this, but not until I've dealt with these other pressing topics first. Perhaps by the time I see everyone in Wisconsin I'll have a better idea of what to do and how to do it. I appreciate the offers of help and will let you know once I have a better handle on it all. Thanks! > > Dave > > David Kaufman > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > >> On Sat, Apr 12, 2014 at 1:18 PM, Catherine Rudin wrote: >> So, it looks to me like we're talking about at least two different things, maybe three, all of which I would like to see done. >> >> (1) A collection of Bob's papers, to be published as a book and/or perhaps a journal special issue. The Siouan archive collection would be a good start on gathering these papers, though there might be others that he never sent in. These would be work that was finished (or close to it) but either not published or published in out-of-the-way places. Someone would need to select which works to include, edit them (as has been pointed out, some may not be quite ready for public consumption), and of course find a publisher. Volunteers? >> >> (2) A different collection of less-polished or fragmentary material, to be given to some appropriate archive. I imagine a lot of what Dave K will find in the "garage full of files" will be notes, correspondence, class handouts ... the kind of things that don't belong in a book or journal but that might well be of great interest to future researchers. Yes, things do get buried in archives, as someone said, but at least they are there for some future person to dig up. Bob once sent me a bunch of his old class handouts on comparative Romance; nothing publishable, but invaluable in putting together my own Romance linguistics course. I bet there's lots of similar stuff on Siouan in that garage. Someone (Dave K?) would need to contact an archive & do some sorting... >> >> (3) A festschrift in Bob's honor. This would presumably be a selection of papers on Siouan languages by some of us, though it might include a paper or two of Bob's too. There was a suggestion earlier that it could serve as a venue for some of the papers from the abandoned Comparative Siouan Syntax project. This one would take a fair amount of cat-herding, getting people to send papers in by some reasonable deadline, selecting, editing, finding a publisher -- lots of work, but seems well worth doing. >> >> Let's talk about all of these in Madison. To answer Meredith's question -- I think we should have a fairly good chunk of time (at least an hour??? perhaps at the end of an afternoon so it could run as long as needed?) Will there be a separate chance to talk about Bob's life and what he meant to us all, or are you picturing rolling a memorial together with talking about publication plans? >> >> Sorry to go on at such length -- the thread seems to be getting a bit fragmented and I'm hoping to gather it back together. >> Catherine >> >> >>> Marianne Mithun 04/12/14 11:22 AM >>> >> I completely agree with David. There is so much there, and when I've asked >> Bob about various things, he's come up with handouts from 25 years earlier, >> and papers from decades before or recently, all of them so valuable. A >> tricky call of course. How many of us would like our unfinished work out >> there. But so much of Bob's work was really finished. >> >> Marianne >> >> --On Saturday, April 12, 2014 7:34 AM -0600 ROOD DAVID S >> wrote: >> >> > Dave, if Carolyn is willing, I think it would be much better to try to >> > arrange for a book or a series of journal publications (e.g. a special >> > issue of IJAL) rather than an archive. Things get buried in archives. >> > However, I know that a lot of what Bob circulated to us was stuff he >> > considered unfinished. The extent to which anyone else would consider >> > that work publishable needs to be discussed with Carolyn. >> > >> > Best, >> > David >> > >> > David S. Rood >> > Dept. of Linguistics >> > Univ. of Colorado >> > 295 UCB >> > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >> > USA >> > rood at colorado.edu >> > >> > On Fri, 11 Apr 2014, David Kaufman wrote: >> > >> >> I don't know if Bob expressed such an interest, at least not to me, and >> >> possibly not to Carolyn either (she didn't mention it). I'd have to look >> >> into how we would go about submitting papers to these organizations for >> >> their archives. Any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated. >> >> >> >> Dave >> >> >> >> David Kaufman >> >> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >> >> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 1:26 PM, David Costa >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> Did Bob ever express a preference as to where his papers should end up? >> >>> I would assume either the NAA or the APS would be best... >> >>> >> >>> Dave Costa >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Hi David and all, >> >>> >> >>> Sorry to hear David that you won't be able to make it to the SCLC this >> >>> year. >> >>> >> >>> I know we have talked about doing a Festschrift in Bob's honor, and this >> >>> is certainly something we can discuss at the meeting. Hopefully our >> >>> organizers can set aside some time on the schedule so we can all >> >>> participate in this discussion. >> >>> >> >>> As for the CSD, I think it's a great idea to have it finalized and >> >>> published in some form, either electronically or in print, or both. >> >>> >> >>> As concerns Bob's unpublished papers and computer files, Carolyn, Bob's >> >>> wife, and I have been in touch fairly regularly. Even before Bob's >> >>> death, she said that she and Bob had discussed it and thought it would >> >>> be best that I come up to their house and "clean out" his garage full >> >>> of files, books, etc. Also, I plan to take a USB drive and download as >> >>> much of his computer files as possible, at least some of which I know >> >>> pertain to Kaw. I'll be happy to distribute whatever I find pertaining >> >>> to other Siouan languages to those of you who want it. I'm hoping to >> >>> go up and do this in the next couple of months, possibly in early June >> >>> or so before it gets too hot. I know Carolyn is thinking about selling >> >>> the house and moving up to be with family in Wisconsin, so this >> >>> cleaning out will have to be done fairly soon anyway. >> >>> >> >>> Anyway, I'll keep everyone posted as plans for these things become more >> >>> concrete. Things are a bit crazy for me right now as I work full-time >> >>> for the Kaw Nation and try to finish my dissertation without yet having >> >>> another committee member to substitute for Bob. I hope to defend in >> >>> May, but I'm still awaiting final word on a new committee member and >> >>> date from my advisor. >> >>> >> >>> Dave >> >>> >> >>> David Kaufman >> >>> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >> >>> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 12:27 PM, ROOD DAVID S >> >>> wrote: >> >>> >> >>>> Hi, everyone, >> >>>> My family schedule for at least part of the summer has finally >> >>>> settled down, and I regret that it precludes me from attending the SCLC >> >>>> again this year. The earliest I could get to Madison would be >> >>>> mid-afternoon on Saturday, hardly the appropriate time for >> >>>> participating in the meeting. >> >>>> >> >>>> I am very much interested in what is decided about honoring Bob >> >>>> Rankin, however, and in what might be done to make his huge >> >>>> contribution to the history of Siouan and the structure of Dhegiah >> >>>> part of a permanent record. I know he has many papers that have never >> >>>> been published, as well as many that are published here and there in >> >>>> places we don't always know about. As early as 1984, at the workshop >> >>>> that launched the Comparative Dictionary project, I proposed a >> >>>> "collection of papers" volume that would be a place for his work (and >> >>>> others), but that has never materialized. Moreover, for the last few >> >>>> years Bob was the major player in the evolution of the >> >>>> Comparative Dictionary. As most of you know, Iren Hartmann at the >> >>>> MPI-Leipzig is working on creating a usable digital verson of the CSD. >> >>>> Of the original 5 participants (John Koontz, Wes Jones, Dick Carter, >> >>>> Rankin and me) in the project, I guess I'm the only one who is still >> >>>> interested and available, so I'm going to work with Iren to see if >> >>>> that can't be finalized and formalized. There is quite a bit of >> >>>> urgency here, because as many of you know, the structure of the MPI in >> >>>> Leipzig will change dramatically in May of 2015, and they will likely >> >>>> no longer be interested in supporting Iren's work. >> >>>> >> >>>> If any of you have any thoughts on how best to move forward >> >>>> with either Bob's legacy or the CSD, please discuss them at >> >>>> the meeting and keep me informed. I don't feel like I know Carolyn >> >>>> well enough to approach her about any of this; perhaps one of you >> >>>> would be willing to help with that. >> >>>> >> >>>> Best wishes to all for a fruitful and fun meeting. >> >>>> >> >>>> David >> >>>> >> >>>> David S. Rood >> >>>> Dept. of Linguistics >> >>>> Univ. of Colorado >> >>>> 295 UCB >> >>>> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >> >>>> USA >> >>>> rood at colorado.edu >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kathleendshea at GMAIL.COM Mon Apr 14 04:12:42 2014 From: kathleendshea at GMAIL.COM (Kathleen D. Shea) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 23:12:42 -0500 Subject: regrets and thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Siouanists, I'm sorry to be so late registering my thoughts about all of this. I was away from home and tied up with family issues in California from December 23 to early March, and I arrived home to find 2 1/2 months of mail waiting for me and out-of-town visitors. I was able to attend the memorial for Bob on March 11 at KU. It was a very nice, fittingly informal gathering, with refreshments, some flowers, a display of pictures set out on some broadcloth blankets (traditional red and blue) given to him by the Kaws, and a stream of people who knew Bob. For me, it was good to see and talk with many old friends I hadn't seen in years. At the memorial, the chair of KU's linguistics department, Allard Jongman, and his wife, Joan Sereno, also a professor in the department, were there. I mentioned to them that Bob had many unpublished papers that he had generously shared with others that I would like to see published so that they would be readily accessible. Allard suggested that perhaps they could be published as a separate volume of the Kansas Working Papers in Linguistics (KWPL), where Bob has published before. I think that we could discuss this at the upcoming Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference, and I would be happy to volunteer to spearhead this project if everyone thinks this is a good idea. John Boyle and Randy Graczyk have both said that they have almost all of Bob's published and unpublished papers. The call for papers for KWPL has just gone out, and I will forward it separately to the Siouan list for your information. Concerning the publishing of a festschrift honoring Bob, I've often thought, even when he was still alive, that it would be a good idea, but I was not willing to take on the task myself. I agree with Catherine that this could appropriately "serve as a venue for some of the papers from the abandoned Comparative Siouan syntax project." I, too, would like to set aside some time at the conference to discuss this. At least an hour seems appropriate. Even though Bob stressed the necessity of everyone having an executor for academic purposes in their will, he apparently didn't follow his own advice. I've been in touch with Carolyn, Bob's wife, and will be having lunch with her on Thursday. I offered to help her sort through his papers, but she says that she is not only having to decide what to do with his papers, but also having to separate them from his ham radio materials, old medical bills, old c.d.'s and music tapes, and so forth. She's somewhat overwhelmed right now. She mentioned that she thought it might be a good idea to give his papers to the Smithsonian. I told her that many in our field donate their papers and recordings to the APS. Anyway, she asked me to put out the word to the Siouan list, who I said were discussing this very thing, that she would welcome the help of a knowledgeable linguist in organizing his papers. (She says there's also much of his written correspondence, of an academic nature, that could be useful to others if organized.) By the way, at the memorial in March, I invited Carolyn to attend the Siouan and Caddoan conference, especially considering the fact that she's from Wisconsin, where it's being held, and has family there, saying that we'd all be delighted to have her attend, but she said that, for now, she just wants to work at getting her life "back to normal." All in all, it sounds to me as though she's doing fairly well in that respect since she's gone back to work as a biologist at KU full-time. Kathy Shea Sent from my iPad > On Apr 12, 2014, at 2:01 PM, David Kaufman wrote: > > Just to follow up here, we are also working on trying to get Bob's remains (ashes) transported from Kansas City to Oklahoma for interment at the Washunga Cemetery (the Kaw Nation cemetery). I have been involved in Kaw Nation Cultural Committee meetings to try and get all these things taken care of, and have been in touch with Carolyn on an ongoing basis. There will be a memorial service here for him once the date is established for the interment. We have another meeting on Monday in which I hope the final interment date will be set, hopefully for within the next couple of weeks. (Carolyn herself does not plan to attend as it's a fairly long drive and she's still in the midst of taking care of financial and other arrangements since Bob's death.) I'm afraid that, due to all of these other pressing issues, including trying to get my own PhD completed and dealing with the transport and final interment of Bob's remains, I haven't got far enough yet in my planning to figure out what to do with all Bob's academic material from Lawrence, especially physical papers and files, once I get them. Storing some of this at KU or even at the Kaw Nation might be an option, but I agree that there needs to be an organized way to go through this and get it disseminated to all of us who are interested, as well as being archived somewhere accessible to the public - perhaps even the Smithsonian? I will have to do some homework around all this, but not until I've dealt with these other pressing topics first. Perhaps by the time I see everyone in Wisconsin I'll have a better idea of what to do and how to do it. I appreciate the offers of help and will let you know once I have a better handle on it all. Thanks! > > Dave > > David Kaufman > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > >> On Sat, Apr 12, 2014 at 1:18 PM, Catherine Rudin wrote: >> So, it looks to me like we're talking about at least two different things, maybe three, all of which I would like to see done. >> >> (1) A collection of Bob's papers, to be published as a book and/or perhaps a journal special issue. The Siouan archive collection would be a good start on gathering these papers, though there might be others that he never sent in. These would be work that was finished (or close to it) but either not published or published in out-of-the-way places. Someone would need to select which works to include, edit them (as has been pointed out, some may not be quite ready for public consumption), and of course find a publisher. Volunteers? >> >> (2) A different collection of less-polished or fragmentary material, to be given to some appropriate archive. I imagine a lot of what Dave K will find in the "garage full of files" will be notes, correspondence, class handouts ... the kind of things that don't belong in a book or journal but that might well be of great interest to future researchers. Yes, things do get buried in archives, as someone said, but at least they are there for some future person to dig up. Bob once sent me a bunch of his old class handouts on comparative Romance; nothing publishable, but invaluable in putting together my own Romance linguistics course. I bet there's lots of similar stuff on Siouan in that garage. Someone (Dave K?) would need to contact an archive & do some sorting... >> >> (3) A festschrift in Bob's honor. This would presumably be a selection of papers on Siouan languages by some of us, though it might include a paper or two of Bob's too. There was a suggestion earlier that it could serve as a venue for some of the papers from the abandoned Comparative Siouan Syntax project. This one would take a fair amount of cat-herding, getting people to send papers in by some reasonable deadline, selecting, editing, finding a publisher -- lots of work, but seems well worth doing. >> >> Let's talk about all of these in Madison. To answer Meredith's question -- I think we should have a fairly good chunk of time (at least an hour??? perhaps at the end of an afternoon so it could run as long as needed?) Will there be a separate chance to talk about Bob's life and what he meant to us all, or are you picturing rolling a memorial together with talking about publication plans? >> >> Sorry to go on at such length -- the thread seems to be getting a bit fragmented and I'm hoping to gather it back together. >> Catherine >> >> >>> Marianne Mithun 04/12/14 11:22 AM >>> >> I completely agree with David. There is so much there, and when I've asked >> Bob about various things, he's come up with handouts from 25 years earlier, >> and papers from decades before or recently, all of them so valuable. A >> tricky call of course. How many of us would like our unfinished work out >> there. But so much of Bob's work was really finished. >> >> Marianne >> >> --On Saturday, April 12, 2014 7:34 AM -0600 ROOD DAVID S >> wrote: >> >> > Dave, if Carolyn is willing, I think it would be much better to try to >> > arrange for a book or a series of journal publications (e.g. a special >> > issue of IJAL) rather than an archive. Things get buried in archives. >> > However, I know that a lot of what Bob circulated to us was stuff he >> > considered unfinished. The extent to which anyone else would consider >> > that work publishable needs to be discussed with Carolyn. >> > >> > Best, >> > David >> > >> > David S. Rood >> > Dept. of Linguistics >> > Univ. of Colorado >> > 295 UCB >> > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >> > USA >> > rood at colorado.edu >> > >> > On Fri, 11 Apr 2014, David Kaufman wrote: >> > >> >> I don't know if Bob expressed such an interest, at least not to me, and >> >> possibly not to Carolyn either (she didn't mention it). I'd have to look >> >> into how we would go about submitting papers to these organizations for >> >> their archives. Any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated. >> >> >> >> Dave >> >> >> >> David Kaufman >> >> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >> >> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 1:26 PM, David Costa >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> Did Bob ever express a preference as to where his papers should end up? >> >>> I would assume either the NAA or the APS would be best... >> >>> >> >>> Dave Costa >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Hi David and all, >> >>> >> >>> Sorry to hear David that you won't be able to make it to the SCLC this >> >>> year. >> >>> >> >>> I know we have talked about doing a Festschrift in Bob's honor, and this >> >>> is certainly something we can discuss at the meeting. Hopefully our >> >>> organizers can set aside some time on the schedule so we can all >> >>> participate in this discussion. >> >>> >> >>> As for the CSD, I think it's a great idea to have it finalized and >> >>> published in some form, either electronically or in print, or both. >> >>> >> >>> As concerns Bob's unpublished papers and computer files, Carolyn, Bob's >> >>> wife, and I have been in touch fairly regularly. Even before Bob's >> >>> death, she said that she and Bob had discussed it and thought it would >> >>> be best that I come up to their house and "clean out" his garage full >> >>> of files, books, etc. Also, I plan to take a USB drive and download as >> >>> much of his computer files as possible, at least some of which I know >> >>> pertain to Kaw. I'll be happy to distribute whatever I find pertaining >> >>> to other Siouan languages to those of you who want it. I'm hoping to >> >>> go up and do this in the next couple of months, possibly in early June >> >>> or so before it gets too hot. I know Carolyn is thinking about selling >> >>> the house and moving up to be with family in Wisconsin, so this >> >>> cleaning out will have to be done fairly soon anyway. >> >>> >> >>> Anyway, I'll keep everyone posted as plans for these things become more >> >>> concrete. Things are a bit crazy for me right now as I work full-time >> >>> for the Kaw Nation and try to finish my dissertation without yet having >> >>> another committee member to substitute for Bob. I hope to defend in >> >>> May, but I'm still awaiting final word on a new committee member and >> >>> date from my advisor. >> >>> >> >>> Dave >> >>> >> >>> David Kaufman >> >>> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >> >>> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 12:27 PM, ROOD DAVID S >> >>> wrote: >> >>> >> >>>> Hi, everyone, >> >>>> My family schedule for at least part of the summer has finally >> >>>> settled down, and I regret that it precludes me from attending the SCLC >> >>>> again this year. The earliest I could get to Madison would be >> >>>> mid-afternoon on Saturday, hardly the appropriate time for >> >>>> participating in the meeting. >> >>>> >> >>>> I am very much interested in what is decided about honoring Bob >> >>>> Rankin, however, and in what might be done to make his huge >> >>>> contribution to the history of Siouan and the structure of Dhegiah >> >>>> part of a permanent record. I know he has many papers that have never >> >>>> been published, as well as many that are published here and there in >> >>>> places we don't always know about. As early as 1984, at the workshop >> >>>> that launched the Comparative Dictionary project, I proposed a >> >>>> "collection of papers" volume that would be a place for his work (and >> >>>> others), but that has never materialized. Moreover, for the last few >> >>>> years Bob was the major player in the evolution of the >> >>>> Comparative Dictionary. As most of you know, Iren Hartmann at the >> >>>> MPI-Leipzig is working on creating a usable digital verson of the CSD. >> >>>> Of the original 5 participants (John Koontz, Wes Jones, Dick Carter, >> >>>> Rankin and me) in the project, I guess I'm the only one who is still >> >>>> interested and available, so I'm going to work with Iren to see if >> >>>> that can't be finalized and formalized. There is quite a bit of >> >>>> urgency here, because as many of you know, the structure of the MPI in >> >>>> Leipzig will change dramatically in May of 2015, and they will likely >> >>>> no longer be interested in supporting Iren's work. >> >>>> >> >>>> If any of you have any thoughts on how best to move forward >> >>>> with either Bob's legacy or the CSD, please discuss them at >> >>>> the meeting and keep me informed. I don't feel like I know Carolyn >> >>>> well enough to approach her about any of this; perhaps one of you >> >>>> would be willing to help with that. >> >>>> >> >>>> Best wishes to all for a fruitful and fun meeting. >> >>>> >> >>>> David >> >>>> >> >>>> David S. Rood >> >>>> Dept. of Linguistics >> >>>> Univ. of Colorado >> >>>> 295 UCB >> >>>> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >> >>>> USA >> >>>> rood at colorado.edu >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kathleendshea at GMAIL.COM Mon Apr 14 04:33:41 2014 From: kathleendshea at GMAIL.COM (Kathleen D. Shea) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 23:33:41 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Call for Papers: KWPL 35 Message-ID: Sent from my iPad Begin forwarded message: > From: Maria Martínez-García > Date: March 28, 2014 at 1:19:40 PM CDT > To: > Subject: Call for Papers: KWPL 35 > Reply-To: maria.martinezgarcia at ku.edu > > Greetings Linguists, > > We are pleased to announce that KWPL is currently accepting submissions for Volume 35. The deadline for submission is May 25th, 2014. We welcome papers on all topics in the field of linguistics, including phonetics, phonology, morphology, syntax, semantics, language acquisition, psycholinguistics, neurolinguistics, linguistic anthropology, and indigenous languages. > > Papers (with a maximum of 25 pages, single-spaced, and in both doc/tex and pdf formats) should be sent directly to the editors at kwpl at ku.edu. Submissions should also be in accordance with the KWPL Style Sheet (see attached). If you have questions about the submission process, please do not hesitate to send us an email. > > Regards, > > Maite Martínez-García, Longcan Huang, & Philip Duncan > Editors, Kansas Working Papers in Linguistics > http://kuscholarworks.ku.edu/dspace/handle/1808/276 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: KWPL Stylesheet_Jan2013_Revised.doc Type: application/msword Size: 142336 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: KWPL Stylesheet_Jan2013_Revised.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 432789 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jfu at LAKHOTA.ORG Tue Apr 15 06:59:09 2014 From: jfu at LAKHOTA.ORG (Jan Ullrich) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 08:59:09 +0200 Subject: oy=?UTF-8?Q?=C3=A1s=E2=80=99i=C5=8B_and_iy=C3=BAha?= Message-ID: Dear colleagues, For one of my current projects I am working on the description of Lakota quantifiers, among other things, and was wondering if any of you may be able to offer some comparative data on the Siouan terms corresponding to the English quantifier “all”. Lakota has two quantifiers corresponding to “all”, they are oyás’iŋ and iyúha. Some of the existing descriptions of these two words suggest that they are not interchangeable, usually stating that one is used with collective and the other with the distributive plural, or that there is a human vs. non-human restriction. However, the existing descriptions actually contradict each other. My analyses of data from available texts doesn’t support the idea that the two words are different in meaning, at least they don’t seem to be in texts recorded between 1850s and 2013. I would like to know if there are known cognates of either one of the two words in other Siouan languages, and if so, whether or not they can shed any light on a difference in meaning that perhaps once existed. I did check the CSD but didn’t find a mention either one of the words. Jan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Tue Apr 15 13:59:23 2014 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 13:59:23 +0000 Subject: oy=?utf-8?Q?=C3=A1s=E2=80=99i=C5=8B_and_iy=C3=BAha?= In-Reply-To: <004701cf5878$33f70420$9be50c60$@org> Message-ID: *Note: The following reply came in from Jonathan Holmes, posting from a Yahoo account. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- As I understand it, "iyuha" is used only when refering to humans, whereas "oyasin" means all of creation. From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jan Ullrich Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 1:59 AM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: oyás’iŋ and iyúha Dear colleagues, For one of my current projects I am working on the description of Lakota quantifiers, among other things, and was wondering if any of you may be able to offer some comparative data on the Siouan terms corresponding to the English quantifier “all”. Lakota has two quantifiers corresponding to “all”, they are oyás’iŋ and iyúha. Some of the existing descriptions of these two words suggest that they are not interchangeable, usually stating that one is used with collective and the other with the distributive plural, or that there is a human vs. non-human restriction. However, the existing descriptions actually contradict each other. My analyses of data from available texts doesn’t support the idea that the two words are different in meaning, at least they don’t seem to be in texts recorded between 1850s and 2013. I would like to know if there are known cognates of either one of the two words in other Siouan languages, and if so, whether or not they can shed any light on a difference in meaning that perhaps once existed. I did check the CSD but didn’t find a mention either one of the words. Jan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jfu at LAKHOTA.ORG Tue Apr 15 14:14:00 2014 From: jfu at LAKHOTA.ORG (Jan Ullrich) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 16:14:00 +0200 Subject: oy=?UTF-8?Q?=C3=A1s=E2=80=99i=C5=8B_and_iy=C3=BAha?= In-Reply-To: <712f69dc35e647e7bdd5929b35653f1e@DM2PR08MB525.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: > Jonathan Holmes wrote: > As I understand it, "iyuha" is used only when refering to humans, whereas "oyasin" means all of creation. Thank you Jonathan. Yes, this is one of the existing definitions that I am aware of, but it is contradicted by data from texts. In the text corpus neither iyúha nor oyás’iŋ are restricted the way suggested above. Both words can be found with human, non-human, animate and inanimate topics, and they both occur with collective and distributive plurals. This is consistent in texts recorded between 1830’s and 2013. So I was wondering if cognates from other Siouan languages may shed some new light on the two words. Jan From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jan Ullrich Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 1:59 AM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: oyás’iŋ and iyúha Dear colleagues, For one of my current projects I am working on the description of Lakota quantifiers, among other things, and was wondering if any of you may be able to offer some comparative data on the Siouan terms corresponding to the English quantifier “all”. Lakota has two quantifiers corresponding to “all”, they are oyás’iŋ and iyúha. Some of the existing descriptions of these two words suggest that they are not interchangeable, usually stating that one is used with collective and the other with the distributive plural, or that there is a human vs. non-human restriction. However, the existing descriptions actually contradict each other. My analyses of data from available texts doesn’t support the idea that the two words are different in meaning, at least they don’t seem to be in texts recorded between 1850s and 2013. I would like to know if there are known cognates of either one of the two words in other Siouan languages, and if so, whether or not they can shed any light on a difference in meaning that perhaps once existed. I did check the CSD but didn’t find a mention either one of the words. Jan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Tue Apr 15 23:58:54 2014 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 23:58:54 +0000 Subject: oy=?utf-8?Q?=C3=A1s=E2=80=99i=C5=8B_and_iy=C3=BAha?= In-Reply-To: <00d901cf58b4$f3e03b30$dba0b190$@org> Message-ID: Jan, we have about two or three ‘all’ words in Omaha, but none seem to be cognate to either of your two words. They seem interesting enough to mention though. bruga – ‘all’, or ‘round’, like a circle. This seems to suggest ‘the whole (round) camp of people’. Distributive ‘all’, for animate or inanimate. gruba – ‘all’, or ‘all of it’. This is one of about three Omaha word pairs we have found in which the consonants br-g- are reshuffled to gr-b- to give a different shade of meaning. Collective ‘all’, for inanimate only. Arguably, the other two such pairs also distinguish distributive br-g- from collective gr-b- the same way, though that’s a little less certain. wôⁿgire – ‘everybody’. I think this is only for people, and it is very often used to suggest ‘we’, though it can be used for third person as well. Impressionistically, I have the feeling that it became more popular in the 20th century, while bruga was used more commonly in the 19th. Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jan Ullrich Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 9:14 AM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: oyás’iŋ and iyúha > Jonathan Holmes wrote: > As I understand it, "iyuha" is used only when refering to humans, whereas "oyasin" means all of creation. Thank you Jonathan. Yes, this is one of the existing definitions that I am aware of, but it is contradicted by data from texts. In the text corpus neither iyúha nor oyás’iŋ are restricted the way suggested above. Both words can be found with human, non-human, animate and inanimate topics, and they both occur with collective and distributive plurals. This is consistent in texts recorded between 1830’s and 2013. So I was wondering if cognates from other Siouan languages may shed some new light on the two words. Jan From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jan Ullrich Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 1:59 AM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: oyás’iŋ and iyúha Dear colleagues, For one of my current projects I am working on the description of Lakota quantifiers, among other things, and was wondering if any of you may be able to offer some comparative data on the Siouan terms corresponding to the English quantifier “all”. Lakota has two quantifiers corresponding to “all”, they are oyás’iŋ and iyúha. Some of the existing descriptions of these two words suggest that they are not interchangeable, usually stating that one is used with collective and the other with the distributive plural, or that there is a human vs. non-human restriction. However, the existing descriptions actually contradict each other. My analyses of data from available texts doesn’t support the idea that the two words are different in meaning, at least they don’t seem to be in texts recorded between 1850s and 2013. I would like to know if there are known cognates of either one of the two words in other Siouan languages, and if so, whether or not they can shed any light on a difference in meaning that perhaps once existed. I did check the CSD but didn’t find a mention either one of the words. Jan -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From majohnson25 at WISC.EDU Wed Apr 16 00:24:31 2014 From: majohnson25 at WISC.EDU (Meredith Johnson) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 19:24:31 -0500 Subject: conference hotel and t-shirts Message-ID: Dear all, I just have a couple of quick notes about the fast-approaching SCLC 34. First, as a reminder, we have set up a hotel in Madison with a reduced rate for the conference. The hotel is located about 10 minutes from the conference venue, and the rate is $118 per night. We want to you all to know that this reduced rate is only available until a week from today, April 22nd. Here is a link to book a room at the hotel at this rate: http://hamptoninn.hilton.com/en/hp/groups/personalized/M/MSNBJHX-ALC-20140522/index.jhtml. If you have any questions or concerns about the accommodations in Madison, please let us know. And second, we are going to be ordering T-shirts for this year's conference. Please see attached for a black and white image of the t-shirt design. In order to be able to place an order, we need to know how many to order and preferred sizes. We don't know the exact price yet because that will depend on how many tees are ordered, but it would be between $11-15. The more t-shirts we order, the cheaper the price! So, if you would like a t-shirt, please email me at majohnson25 at wisc.edu with your preferred size. We will let you know what the final cost is, and you can pay on site. Lastly, the schedule will be out shortly! We are just waiting for confirmation of one more talk. As always, let us know if you have any questions. Best, Meredith -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Siouan Confrence logo black and white.jpeg Type: image/jpg Size: 14897 bytes Desc: not available URL: From george.wilmes at GMAIL.COM Wed Apr 16 01:37:56 2014 From: george.wilmes at GMAIL.COM (George Wilmes) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 20:37:56 -0500 Subject: oy=?UTF-8?Q?=C3=A1s=E2=80=99i=C5=8B_and_iy=C3=BAha?= In-Reply-To: <004701cf5878$33f70420$9be50c60$@org> Message-ID: Kennard’s Mandan texts have more than a dozen occurrences of “ikų́:ha”. (In case the Unicode character doesn’t come through in this email, that’s “ikuha” with a nasalized, accented, long “u”.) Kennard usually glossed it as “all over” (in the sense of “everywhere”, as in “all over the earth”, “all over his body”, etc.) but also once as “whole” (as in “the whole day”). So it seems to have the sense of representing an entirety. Might that be related to “iyúha”? I haven't yet noticed anything like "oyás’iŋ". On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 1:59 AM, Jan Ullrich wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > > > For one of my current projects I am working on the description of Lakota > quantifiers, among other things, and was wondering if any of you may be > able to offer some comparative data on the Siouan terms corresponding to > the English quantifier “all”. > > > > > > Lakota has two quantifiers corresponding to “all”, they are oyás’iŋ and > iyúha. Some of the existing descriptions of these two words suggest that > they are not interchangeable, usually stating that one is used with > collective and the other with the distributive plural, or that there is a > human vs. non-human restriction. However, the existing descriptions > actually contradict each other. > > > > My analyses of data from available texts doesn’t support the idea that the > two words are different in meaning, at least they don’t seem to be in texts > recorded between 1850s and 2013. > > > > I would like to know if there are known cognates of either one of the two > words in other Siouan languages, and if so, whether or not they can shed > any light on a difference in meaning that perhaps once existed. I did check > the CSD but didn’t find a mention either one of the words. > > > > Jan > > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From majohnson25 at WISC.EDU Wed Apr 16 17:24:21 2014 From: majohnson25 at WISC.EDU (Meredith Johnson) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 12:24:21 -0500 Subject: SCLC 34 schedule Message-ID: Dear Siouanists, Please find attached the preliminary schedule for the upcoming Siouan conference. We hope to have more information about the conference dinner for you soon. We will also be posting the schedule to the conference website (https://sites.google.com/site/34sclc/), and we will also post all the abstracts for the talks shortly. As always, let us know if you have any questions. We are looking forward to seeing you in Madison soon! All the best, Meredith -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SCLC 34 schedule.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 37403 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Wed Apr 16 18:50:16 2014 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM (Sky Campbell) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 13:50:16 -0500 Subject: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Message-ID: I've had a name from an old Otoe treaty (1817) that has always puzzled me. The name is: Wathapayignet - the Small Bear There is no mųnje (bear/black bear) or mąnto (grizzly bear) terms to be found in there. The "small" part is easy enough to pull out of there (yignet = -inye). Then the thought struck me about the Ponca term for bear (wasabe) and how the Ponca "s" can sometimes be the Otoe "th" in cognate terms. This gives me "wathabe" as the term for bear. Now before I run with this, does anyone have anything to back this up? It certainly makes sense and the pieces fit. But I have never seen "wathabe" anywhere as an Otoe word for bear. But if I am right, this would give me: Wathabeinye - Small Bear If I am correct, then I'm thinking that this is an extremely old term. Anyone else come across this before? Sky -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Wed Apr 16 20:43:29 2014 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 20:43:29 +0000 Subject: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" In-Reply-To: <000001cf59a4$b6dbf210$2493d630$@com> Message-ID: Sky, The wasabe term is not just Ponca; it’s Omaha, Kaw and (as wasape) Osage as well. I assume it’s common Dhegiha. It refers to the black bear, as opposed to the mąnto-equivalent term for ‘grizzly bear’. I’m sure you’re entirely right that the ‘Wathapay’ part of that name is an Otoe equivalent of Dhegiha *wasape. It looks like the ‘ignet’ must have been written by a Frenchman; it kind of threw me a little at first. :) Anyway, if the *wasape term was not known from Otoe before, that’s a great catch! So it looks like you have three terms for ‘bear’?? Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 1:50 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" I've had a name from an old Otoe treaty (1817) that has always puzzled me. The name is: Wathapayignet - the Small Bear There is no mųnje (bear/black bear) or mąnto (grizzly bear) terms to be found in there. The "small" part is easy enough to pull out of there (yignet = -inye). Then the thought struck me about the Ponca term for bear (wasabe) and how the Ponca "s" can sometimes be the Otoe "th" in cognate terms. This gives me "wathabe" as the term for bear. Now before I run with this, does anyone have anything to back this up? It certainly makes sense and the pieces fit. But I have never seen "wathabe" anywhere as an Otoe word for bear. But if I am right, this would give me: Wathabeinye - Small Bear If I am correct, then I'm thinking that this is an extremely old term. Anyone else come across this before? Sky -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Wed Apr 16 20:52:06 2014 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Greer, Jill) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 20:52:06 +0000 Subject: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" In-Reply-To: <5c9b0ab0e72d4510bcb959ab33fabe6f@DM2PR08MB525.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Sky and Rory, Great posts - one thing to consider also is that it’s actually not an Otoe word per se. It’s possible for entire names to have been borrowed across tribes (or bestowed, think of the intertribal peace-making child adoption tradition of the Pipe Dance (Calumet in some soures), with the Beloved Child (it could be a girl or a boy) undergoing an elaborate ceremony. People might have multiple names (family kin name, clan name, later a name from an accomplishment, plus nicknames [‘uncle names’]. Is there a similar name in Dhegiha groups? Best, Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:43 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Sky, The wasabe term is not just Ponca; it’s Omaha, Kaw and (as wasape) Osage as well. I assume it’s common Dhegiha. It refers to the black bear, as opposed to the mąnto-equivalent term for ‘grizzly bear’. I’m sure you’re entirely right that the ‘Wathapay’ part of that name is an Otoe equivalent of Dhegiha *wasape. It looks like the ‘ignet’ must have been written by a Frenchman; it kind of threw me a little at first. :) Anyway, if the *wasape term was not known from Otoe before, that’s a great catch! So it looks like you have three terms for ‘bear’?? Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 1:50 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" I've had a name from an old Otoe treaty (1817) that has always puzzled me. The name is: Wathapayignet - the Small Bear There is no mųnje (bear/black bear) or mąnto (grizzly bear) terms to be found in there. The "small" part is easy enough to pull out of there (yignet = -inye). Then the thought struck me about the Ponca term for bear (wasabe) and how the Ponca "s" can sometimes be the Otoe "th" in cognate terms. This gives me "wathabe" as the term for bear. Now before I run with this, does anyone have anything to back this up? It certainly makes sense and the pieces fit. But I have never seen "wathabe" anywhere as an Otoe word for bear. But if I am right, this would give me: Wathabeinye - Small Bear If I am correct, then I'm thinking that this is an extremely old term. Anyone else come across this before? Sky -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG Wed Apr 16 21:01:29 2014 From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 16:01:29 -0500 Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Message-ID: Rory, Yea, that ending threw me off too :). Jill, I'd thought of that as well. What has me thinking it is still an Otoe word is the use of "th.". I figure if it were Dhegiha in origin then the s would have been used. But it may also be possible that Dhegiha has a "th version" of wasabe somewhere which is why I wanted to check with you guys. Of course there might be other variables/factors at play here that I am not aware of so I'm open to suggestions :). Sky Campbell Language Director Otoe-Missouria Language Department (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org ________________________________ From: Greer, Jill Sent: ‎4/‎16/‎2014 3:52 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Sky and Rory, Great posts - one thing to consider also is that it’s actually not an Otoe word per se. It’s possible for entire names to have been borrowed across tribes (or bestowed, think of the intertribal peace-making child adoption tradition of the Pipe Dance (Calumet in some soures), with the Beloved Child (it could be a girl or a boy) undergoing an elaborate ceremony. People might have multiple names (family kin name, clan name, later a name from an accomplishment, plus nicknames [‘uncle names’]. Is there a similar name in Dhegiha groups? Best, Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:43 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Sky, The wasabe term is not just Ponca; it’s Omaha, Kaw and (as wasape) Osage as well. I assume it’s common Dhegiha. It refers to the black bear, as opposed to the mąnto-equivalent term for ‘grizzly bear’. I’m sure you’re entirely right that the ‘Wathapay’ part of that name is an Otoe equivalent of Dhegiha *wasape. It looks like the ‘ignet’ must have been written by a Frenchman; it kind of threw me a little at first. :) Anyway, if the *wasape term was not known from Otoe before, that’s a great catch! So it looks like you have three terms for ‘bear’?? Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 1:50 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" I've had a name from an old Otoe treaty (1817) that has always puzzled me. The name is: Wathapayignet - the Small Bear There is no mųnje (bear/black bear) or mąnto (grizzly bear) terms to be found in there. The "small" part is easy enough to pull out of there (yignet = -inye). Then the thought struck me about the Ponca term for bear (wasabe) and how the Ponca "s" can sometimes be the Otoe "th" in cognate terms. This gives me "wathabe" as the term for bear. Now before I run with this, does anyone have anything to back this up? It certainly makes sense and the pieces fit. But I have never seen "wathabe" anywhere as an Otoe word for bear. But if I am right, this would give me: Wathabeinye - Small Bear If I am correct, then I'm thinking that this is an extremely old term. Anyone else come across this before? Sky -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG Wed Apr 16 21:06:09 2014 From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 16:06:09 -0500 Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Message-ID: And another reason that I think it might be an Otoe word is the use of the Jiwere "-inye" suffix for small. But I'm sure it wouldn't be unreasonable to consider the idea that a name could consist of an Otoe suffix tacked onto a non-Otoe word. Sky Campbell Language Director Otoe-Missouria Language Department (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org ________________________________ From: Greer, Jill Sent: ‎4/‎16/‎2014 3:52 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Sky and Rory, Great posts - one thing to consider also is that it’s actually not an Otoe word per se. It’s possible for entire names to have been borrowed across tribes (or bestowed, think of the intertribal peace-making child adoption tradition of the Pipe Dance (Calumet in some soures), with the Beloved Child (it could be a girl or a boy) undergoing an elaborate ceremony. People might have multiple names (family kin name, clan name, later a name from an accomplishment, plus nicknames [‘uncle names’]. Is there a similar name in Dhegiha groups? Best, Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:43 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Sky, The wasabe term is not just Ponca; it’s Omaha, Kaw and (as wasape) Osage as well. I assume it’s common Dhegiha. It refers to the black bear, as opposed to the mąnto-equivalent term for ‘grizzly bear’. I’m sure you’re entirely right that the ‘Wathapay’ part of that name is an Otoe equivalent of Dhegiha *wasape. It looks like the ‘ignet’ must have been written by a Frenchman; it kind of threw me a little at first. :) Anyway, if the *wasape term was not known from Otoe before, that’s a great catch! So it looks like you have three terms for ‘bear’?? Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 1:50 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" I've had a name from an old Otoe treaty (1817) that has always puzzled me. The name is: Wathapayignet - the Small Bear There is no mųnje (bear/black bear) or mąnto (grizzly bear) terms to be found in there. The "small" part is easy enough to pull out of there (yignet = -inye). Then the thought struck me about the Ponca term for bear (wasabe) and how the Ponca "s" can sometimes be the Otoe "th" in cognate terms. This gives me "wathabe" as the term for bear. Now before I run with this, does anyone have anything to back this up? It certainly makes sense and the pieces fit. But I have never seen "wathabe" anywhere as an Otoe word for bear. But if I am right, this would give me: Wathabeinye - Small Bear If I am correct, then I'm thinking that this is an extremely old term. Anyone else come across this before? Sky -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Wed Apr 16 21:11:35 2014 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 21:11:35 +0000 Subject: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" In-Reply-To: <30408ed1f36d41f3a4b29c2df4a8fdc1@BLUPR04MB819.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: That’s a very good point, Jill, and well taken. Yes, there is an equivalent name, at least in the Thatada clan, which is Wasabe-zhiⁿga. If the term Sky found is a borrowing, it shows that understanding between the two groups at the time was good enough to cause Dhegiha ‘s’ to shift forward to Otoe ‘th’, and for the Dhegiha ‘small’ term (zhiⁿga) to be replaced by Otoe iñe, as Sky has just noted. But I think either of those are quite possible and likely, so we might want more evidence from Otoe before we conclude that this ‘bear’ term was generally used in Otoe. Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:52 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Sky and Rory, Great posts - one thing to consider also is that it’s actually not an Otoe word per se. It’s possible for entire names to have been borrowed across tribes (or bestowed, think of the intertribal peace-making child adoption tradition of the Pipe Dance (Calumet in some soures), with the Beloved Child (it could be a girl or a boy) undergoing an elaborate ceremony. People might have multiple names (family kin name, clan name, later a name from an accomplishment, plus nicknames [‘uncle names’]. Is there a similar name in Dhegiha groups? Best, Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:43 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Sky, The wasabe term is not just Ponca; it’s Omaha, Kaw and (as wasape) Osage as well. I assume it’s common Dhegiha. It refers to the black bear, as opposed to the mąnto-equivalent term for ‘grizzly bear’. I’m sure you’re entirely right that the ‘Wathapay’ part of that name is an Otoe equivalent of Dhegiha *wasape. It looks like the ‘ignet’ must have been written by a Frenchman; it kind of threw me a little at first. :) Anyway, if the *wasape term was not known from Otoe before, that’s a great catch! So it looks like you have three terms for ‘bear’?? Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 1:50 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" I've had a name from an old Otoe treaty (1817) that has always puzzled me. The name is: Wathapayignet - the Small Bear There is no mųnje (bear/black bear) or mąnto (grizzly bear) terms to be found in there. The "small" part is easy enough to pull out of there (yignet = -inye). Then the thought struck me about the Ponca term for bear (wasabe) and how the Ponca "s" can sometimes be the Otoe "th" in cognate terms. This gives me "wathabe" as the term for bear. Now before I run with this, does anyone have anything to back this up? It certainly makes sense and the pieces fit. But I have never seen "wathabe" anywhere as an Otoe word for bear. But if I am right, this would give me: Wathabeinye - Small Bear If I am correct, then I'm thinking that this is an extremely old term. Anyone else come across this before? Sky -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Wed Apr 16 21:21:36 2014 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Greer, Jill) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 21:21:36 +0000 Subject: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" In-Reply-To: <1f25266dbf9940f681e64701ea6ca8c0@DM2PR08MB525.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Good point Sky - Of course, there could be lots of alternative words for many things that we just don’t have examples, so this is exciting. Names are always fascinating. I must be getting hunger this afternoon, because Wasabi is a Japanese restaurant in town here, and the thought of wonderful hot horseradish came to my mind when your Otoe word was on the screen… ☺ Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:12 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" That’s a very good point, Jill, and well taken. Yes, there is an equivalent name, at least in the Thatada clan, which is Wasabe-zhiⁿga. If the term Sky found is a borrowing, it shows that understanding between the two groups at the time was good enough to cause Dhegiha ‘s’ to shift forward to Otoe ‘th’, and for the Dhegiha ‘small’ term (zhiⁿga) to be replaced by Otoe iñe, as Sky has just noted. But I think either of those are quite possible and likely, so we might want more evidence from Otoe before we conclude that this ‘bear’ term was generally used in Otoe. Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:52 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Sky and Rory, Great posts - one thing to consider also is that it’s actually not an Otoe word per se. It’s possible for entire names to have been borrowed across tribes (or bestowed, think of the intertribal peace-making child adoption tradition of the Pipe Dance (Calumet in some soures), with the Beloved Child (it could be a girl or a boy) undergoing an elaborate ceremony. People might have multiple names (family kin name, clan name, later a name from an accomplishment, plus nicknames [‘uncle names’]. Is there a similar name in Dhegiha groups? Best, Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:43 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Sky, The wasabe term is not just Ponca; it’s Omaha, Kaw and (as wasape) Osage as well. I assume it’s common Dhegiha. It refers to the black bear, as opposed to the mąnto-equivalent term for ‘grizzly bear’. I’m sure you’re entirely right that the ‘Wathapay’ part of that name is an Otoe equivalent of Dhegiha *wasape. It looks like the ‘ignet’ must have been written by a Frenchman; it kind of threw me a little at first. :) Anyway, if the *wasape term was not known from Otoe before, that’s a great catch! So it looks like you have three terms for ‘bear’?? Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 1:50 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" I've had a name from an old Otoe treaty (1817) that has always puzzled me. The name is: Wathapayignet - the Small Bear There is no mųnje (bear/black bear) or mąnto (grizzly bear) terms to be found in there. The "small" part is easy enough to pull out of there (yignet = -inye). Then the thought struck me about the Ponca term for bear (wasabe) and how the Ponca "s" can sometimes be the Otoe "th" in cognate terms. This gives me "wathabe" as the term for bear. Now before I run with this, does anyone have anything to back this up? It certainly makes sense and the pieces fit. But I have never seen "wathabe" anywhere as an Otoe word for bear. But if I am right, this would give me: Wathabeinye - Small Bear If I am correct, then I'm thinking that this is an extremely old term. Anyone else come across this before? Sky -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Wed Apr 16 21:27:28 2014 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Greer, Jill) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 21:27:28 +0000 Subject: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" In-Reply-To: <7fe41dc063794342a9f6d29cde8a669c@BLUPR04MB819.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Whoops - I meant Dhegiha there. Sorry all! Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:22 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Good point Sky - Of course, there could be lots of alternative words for many things that we just don’t have examples, so this is exciting. Names are always fascinating. I must be getting hunger this afternoon, because Wasabi is a Japanese restaurant in town here, and the thought of wonderful hot horseradish came to my mind when your Otoe word was on the screen… ☺ Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:12 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" That’s a very good point, Jill, and well taken. Yes, there is an equivalent name, at least in the Thatada clan, which is Wasabe-zhiⁿga. If the term Sky found is a borrowing, it shows that understanding between the two groups at the time was good enough to cause Dhegiha ‘s’ to shift forward to Otoe ‘th’, and for the Dhegiha ‘small’ term (zhiⁿga) to be replaced by Otoe iñe, as Sky has just noted. But I think either of those are quite possible and likely, so we might want more evidence from Otoe before we conclude that this ‘bear’ term was generally used in Otoe. Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:52 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Sky and Rory, Great posts - one thing to consider also is that it’s actually not an Otoe word per se. It’s possible for entire names to have been borrowed across tribes (or bestowed, think of the intertribal peace-making child adoption tradition of the Pipe Dance (Calumet in some soures), with the Beloved Child (it could be a girl or a boy) undergoing an elaborate ceremony. People might have multiple names (family kin name, clan name, later a name from an accomplishment, plus nicknames [‘uncle names’]. Is there a similar name in Dhegiha groups? Best, Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:43 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Sky, The wasabe term is not just Ponca; it’s Omaha, Kaw and (as wasape) Osage as well. I assume it’s common Dhegiha. It refers to the black bear, as opposed to the mąnto-equivalent term for ‘grizzly bear’. I’m sure you’re entirely right that the ‘Wathapay’ part of that name is an Otoe equivalent of Dhegiha *wasape. It looks like the ‘ignet’ must have been written by a Frenchman; it kind of threw me a little at first. :) Anyway, if the *wasape term was not known from Otoe before, that’s a great catch! So it looks like you have three terms for ‘bear’?? Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 1:50 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" I've had a name from an old Otoe treaty (1817) that has always puzzled me. The name is: Wathapayignet - the Small Bear There is no mųnje (bear/black bear) or mąnto (grizzly bear) terms to be found in there. The "small" part is easy enough to pull out of there (yignet = -inye). Then the thought struck me about the Ponca term for bear (wasabe) and how the Ponca "s" can sometimes be the Otoe "th" in cognate terms. This gives me "wathabe" as the term for bear. Now before I run with this, does anyone have anything to back this up? It certainly makes sense and the pieces fit. But I have never seen "wathabe" anywhere as an Otoe word for bear. But if I am right, this would give me: Wathabeinye - Small Bear If I am correct, then I'm thinking that this is an extremely old term. Anyone else come across this before? Sky -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Thu Apr 17 20:00:09 2014 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM (Sky Campbell) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2014 15:00:09 -0500 Subject: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Found this in the next treaty (1825) while trying to figure out yet another name LOL. Waw-zob-e-ing-ge And once I saw it, I remembered seeing it before. Now I have a shift from "th" to "z" in a span of 8 years and it has me questioning if "ignet" was actually supposed to represent -inye or -inge. If the first one was in face -inye then here you have another shift to -inge. Presumably this same individual was there to pronounce his name for whoever was writing it down. And if so, he changed 1 (and maybe 2) part of his name. A number of scenarios come to mind for the change (perhaps another one of the signers pronounced it for him) but it would still be nice to get this sorted out :). Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:27 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Whoops - I meant Dhegiha there. Sorry all! Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:22 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Good point Sky - Of course, there could be lots of alternative words for many things that we just don’t have examples, so this is exciting. Names are always fascinating. I must be getting hunger this afternoon, because Wasabi is a Japanese restaurant in town here, and the thought of wonderful hot horseradish came to my mind when your Otoe word was on the screen… J Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:12 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" That’s a very good point, Jill, and well taken. Yes, there is an equivalent name, at least in the Thatada clan, which is Wasabe-zhiⁿga. If the term Sky found is a borrowing, it shows that understanding between the two groups at the time was good enough to cause Dhegiha ‘s’ to shift forward to Otoe ‘th’, and for the Dhegiha ‘small’ term (zhiⁿga) to be replaced by Otoe iñe, as Sky has just noted. But I think either of those are quite possible and likely, so we might want more evidence from Otoe before we conclude that this ‘bear’ term was generally used in Otoe. Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:52 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Sky and Rory, Great posts - one thing to consider also is that it’s actually not an Otoe word per se. It’s possible for entire names to have been borrowed across tribes (or bestowed, think of the intertribal peace-making child adoption tradition of the Pipe Dance (Calumet in some soures), with the Beloved Child (it could be a girl or a boy) undergoing an elaborate ceremony. People might have multiple names (family kin name, clan name, later a name from an accomplishment, plus nicknames [‘uncle names’]. Is there a similar name in Dhegiha groups? Best, Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:43 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Sky, The wasabe term is not just Ponca; it’s Omaha, Kaw and (as wasape) Osage as well. I assume it’s common Dhegiha. It refers to the black bear, as opposed to the mąnto-equivalent term for ‘grizzly bear’. I’m sure you’re entirely right that the ‘Wathapay’ part of that name is an Otoe equivalent of Dhegiha *wasape. It looks like the ‘ignet’ must have been written by a Frenchman; it kind of threw me a little at first. :) Anyway, if the *wasape term was not known from Otoe before, that’s a great catch! So it looks like you have three terms for ‘bear’?? Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 1:50 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" I've had a name from an old Otoe treaty (1817) that has always puzzled me. The name is: Wathapayignet - the Small Bear There is no mųnje (bear/black bear) or mąnto (grizzly bear) terms to be found in there. The "small" part is easy enough to pull out of there (yignet = -inye). Then the thought struck me about the Ponca term for bear (wasabe) and how the Ponca "s" can sometimes be the Otoe "th" in cognate terms. This gives me "wathabe" as the term for bear. Now before I run with this, does anyone have anything to back this up? It certainly makes sense and the pieces fit. But I have never seen "wathabe" anywhere as an Otoe word for bear. But if I am right, this would give me: Wathabeinye - Small Bear If I am correct, then I'm thinking that this is an extremely old term. Anyone else come across this before? Sky -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgoodtracks at gmail.com Fri Apr 18 12:49:33 2014 From: jgoodtracks at gmail.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2014 06:49:33 -0600 Subject: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" In-Reply-To: <30408ed1f36d41f3a4b29c2df4a8fdc1@BLUPR04MB819.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Of all the possibilities considered thus far with this Dhegiha name being also an Otoe term, Jill´statement of a possible borrowing as a bestowal- name as a gift, would be my leaning in this instance. I am aware of one Iowa Elder whose clan name was actually Omaha - as he was part Omaha. On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 2:52 PM, Greer, Jill wrote: > Sky and Rory, > > Great posts - one thing to consider also is that it’s actually not an > Otoe word per se. It’s possible for entire names to have been borrowed > across tribes (or bestowed, think of the intertribal peace-making child > adoption tradition of the Pipe Dance (Calumet in some soures), with the > Beloved Child (it could be a girl or a boy) undergoing an elaborate > ceremony. People might have multiple names (family kin name, clan name, > later a name from an accomplishment, plus nicknames [‘uncle names’]. Is > there a similar name in Dhegiha groups? > > > > Best, > > Jill > > > > > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of > *Rory Larson > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:43 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" > > > > Sky, > > > > The *wasabe* term is not just Ponca; it’s Omaha, Kaw and (as *wasape*) > Osage as well. I assume it’s common Dhegiha. It refers to the black bear, > as opposed to the *mąnto*-equivalent term for ‘grizzly bear’. I’m sure > you’re entirely right that the ‘Wathapay’ part of that name is an Otoe > equivalent of Dhegiha **wasape*. It looks like the ‘ignet’ must have > been written by a Frenchman; it kind of threw me a little at first. :) > > > > Anyway, if the **wasape* term was not known from Otoe before, that’s a > great catch! So it looks like you have three terms for ‘bear’?? > > > > Best, > > Rory > > > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] > *On Behalf Of *Sky Campbell > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 16, 2014 1:50 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU > *Subject:* Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" > > > > I've had a name from an old Otoe treaty (1817) that has always puzzled > me. The name is: > > > > Wathapayignet - the Small Bear > > > > There is no *mųnje* (bear/black bear) or *mąnto* (grizzly bear) terms to > be found in there. The "small" part is easy enough to pull out of there > (yignet = -inye). Then the thought struck me about the Ponca term for bear > (wasabe) and how the Ponca "s" can sometimes be the Otoe "th" in cognate > terms. This gives me "wathabe" as the term for bear. Now before I run > with this, does anyone have anything to back this up? It certainly makes > sense and the pieces fit. But I have never seen "wathabe" anywhere as an > Otoe word for bear. But if I am right, this would give me: > > > > Wathabeinye - Small Bear > > > > If I am correct, then I'm thinking that this is an *extremely* old term. > > > > Anyone else come across this before? > > > > Sky > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's > DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from > Yahoo.com > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's > DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from > Yahoo.com > > > This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject > to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for > the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended > recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of > the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by > law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please > notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's > DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from > Yahoo.com > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Fri Apr 18 18:17:43 2014 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Greer, Jill) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2014 18:17:43 +0000 Subject: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" In-Reply-To: <002d01cf5a77$a3f5b270$ebe11750$@com> Message-ID: Interesting! Remember that as people like the American dialectologist William Labov taught us, if there are variations in how to pronounce something within a language, it’s rarely the case that anyone uses only one variation always, and the other group only uses the alternate. And the social context can subtly affect which one is chosen, even below the conscious level of the speaker. So, New York City speakers from a working class neighborhood might use the classic ‘r’ dropping X percent of the time, say 65% (John Boyle can probably remember this exactly), while middle class folks might only ‘drop their [r]’ 30%, and upper class folks might only have it 5% of the time, just as an example. It always seemed to me since so many Otoe-Missouria had Ioway kin (and vice versa) that an absolute 100% consistency in using the alternate forms (like the inye vs. inge example here) would be very unlikely. So beyond the possible differences in the persons’ hearing and transcription, it might have been perfectly acceptable to pronounce the name both ways, at the same point in time. (In this part of SW Missouri, Sky, your last name would traditionally be said more like the desert animal, Camel ☺; we had dear neighbors who I knew only by hearing their names spoken, and was surprised to find out later that the spelling had not one but two “silent letters”). Then a new girl of the same surname came to school, and she pronounced it Cam-bell, (still the silent p), so I added that variation for her name, but that didn’t change the way I addressed the older folks at church.... Best, Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 3:00 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Found this in the next treaty (1825) while trying to figure out yet another name LOL. Waw-zob-e-ing-ge And once I saw it, I remembered seeing it before. Now I have a shift from "th" to "z" in a span of 8 years and it has me questioning if "ignet" was actually supposed to represent -inye or -inge. If the first one was in face -inye then here you have another shift to -inge. Presumably this same individual was there to pronounce his name for whoever was writing it down. And if so, he changed 1 (and maybe 2) part of his name. A number of scenarios come to mind for the change (perhaps another one of the signers pronounced it for him) but it would still be nice to get this sorted out :). Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:27 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Whoops - I meant Dhegiha there. Sorry all! Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:22 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Good point Sky - Of course, there could be lots of alternative words for many things that we just don’t have examples, so this is exciting. Names are always fascinating. I must be getting hunger this afternoon, because Wasabi is a Japanese restaurant in town here, and the thought of wonderful hot horseradish came to my mind when your Otoe word was on the screen… ☺ Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:12 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" That’s a very good point, Jill, and well taken. Yes, there is an equivalent name, at least in the Thatada clan, which is Wasabe-zhiⁿga. If the term Sky found is a borrowing, it shows that understanding between the two groups at the time was good enough to cause Dhegiha ‘s’ to shift forward to Otoe ‘th’, and for the Dhegiha ‘small’ term (zhiⁿga) to be replaced by Otoe iñe, as Sky has just noted. But I think either of those are quite possible and likely, so we might want more evidence from Otoe before we conclude that this ‘bear’ term was generally used in Otoe. Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:52 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Sky and Rory, Great posts - one thing to consider also is that it’s actually not an Otoe word per se. It’s possible for entire names to have been borrowed across tribes (or bestowed, think of the intertribal peace-making child adoption tradition of the Pipe Dance (Calumet in some soures), with the Beloved Child (it could be a girl or a boy) undergoing an elaborate ceremony. People might have multiple names (family kin name, clan name, later a name from an accomplishment, plus nicknames [‘uncle names’]. Is there a similar name in Dhegiha groups? Best, Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:43 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Sky, The wasabe term is not just Ponca; it’s Omaha, Kaw and (as wasape) Osage as well. I assume it’s common Dhegiha. It refers to the black bear, as opposed to the mąnto-equivalent term for ‘grizzly bear’. I’m sure you’re entirely right that the ‘Wathapay’ part of that name is an Otoe equivalent of Dhegiha *wasape. It looks like the ‘ignet’ must have been written by a Frenchman; it kind of threw me a little at first. :) Anyway, if the *wasape term was not known from Otoe before, that’s a great catch! So it looks like you have three terms for ‘bear’?? Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 1:50 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" I've had a name from an old Otoe treaty (1817) that has always puzzled me. The name is: Wathapayignet - the Small Bear There is no mųnje (bear/black bear) or mąnto (grizzly bear) terms to be found in there. The "small" part is easy enough to pull out of there (yignet = -inye). Then the thought struck me about the Ponca term for bear (wasabe) and how the Ponca "s" can sometimes be the Otoe "th" in cognate terms. This gives me "wathabe" as the term for bear. Now before I run with this, does anyone have anything to back this up? It certainly makes sense and the pieces fit. But I have never seen "wathabe" anywhere as an Otoe word for bear. But if I am right, this would give me: Wathabeinye - Small Bear If I am correct, then I'm thinking that this is an extremely old term. Anyone else come across this before? Sky -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Fri Apr 18 23:02:28 2014 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM (Sky Campbell) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2014 18:02:28 -0500 Subject: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" In-Reply-To: <975c97ced6454aff875d47b927664461@BLUPR04MB819.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Jimm, Very true...I've also seen a handful of names referring to other tribes (Ioway, Pawnee, Pottawatomie, Omaha, etc.). It makes me curious about if this person were from another tribe (at least in part), what the scenario was that allowed them to inherit and/or rise through the ranks to become someone important enough to sign a treaty. Jill, I know what you mean. I've considered the possibility of using variations. I know we only met briefly at Breath of Life last year so I don't know how much of my West Virginia accent/slang came out for you to hear but I do know that it does emerge from time to time (much to my wife's amusement when I say something like "I ain't eat yet" :) ). It's been years since I've lived there but those remnants still bubble to the surface. I think people are often flabbergasted when they find out that I work with languages LOL. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 1:18 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Interesting! Remember that as people like the American dialectologist William Labov taught us, if there are variations in how to pronounce something within a language, it’s rarely the case that anyone uses only one variation always, and the other group only uses the alternate. And the social context can subtly affect which one is chosen, even below the conscious level of the speaker. So, New York City speakers from a working class neighborhood might use the classic ‘r’ dropping X percent of the time, say 65% (John Boyle can probably remember this exactly), while middle class folks might only ‘drop their [r]’ 30%, and upper class folks might only have it 5% of the time, just as an example. It always seemed to me since so many Otoe-Missouria had Ioway kin (and vice versa) that an absolute 100% consistency in using the alternate forms (like the inye vs. inge example here) would be very unlikely. So beyond the possible differences in the persons’ hearing and transcription, it might have been perfectly acceptable to pronounce the name both ways, at the same point in time. (In this part of SW Missouri, Sky, your last name would traditionally be said more like the desert animal, Camel J; we had dear neighbors who I knew only by hearing their names spoken, and was surprised to find out later that the spelling had not one but two “silent letters”). Then a new girl of the same surname came to school, and she pronounced it Cam-bell, (still the silent p), so I added that variation for her name, but that didn’t change the way I addressed the older folks at church.... Best, Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 3:00 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Found this in the next treaty (1825) while trying to figure out yet another name LOL. Waw-zob-e-ing-ge And once I saw it, I remembered seeing it before. Now I have a shift from "th" to "z" in a span of 8 years and it has me questioning if "ignet" was actually supposed to represent -inye or -inge. If the first one was in face -inye then here you have another shift to -inge. Presumably this same individual was there to pronounce his name for whoever was writing it down. And if so, he changed 1 (and maybe 2) part of his name. A number of scenarios come to mind for the change (perhaps another one of the signers pronounced it for him) but it would still be nice to get this sorted out :). Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:27 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Whoops - I meant Dhegiha there. Sorry all! Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:22 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Good point Sky - Of course, there could be lots of alternative words for many things that we just don’t have examples, so this is exciting. Names are always fascinating. I must be getting hunger this afternoon, because Wasabi is a Japanese restaurant in town here, and the thought of wonderful hot horseradish came to my mind when your Otoe word was on the screen… J Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:12 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" That’s a very good point, Jill, and well taken. Yes, there is an equivalent name, at least in the Thatada clan, which is Wasabe-zhiⁿga. If the term Sky found is a borrowing, it shows that understanding between the two groups at the time was good enough to cause Dhegiha ‘s’ to shift forward to Otoe ‘th’, and for the Dhegiha ‘small’ term (zhiⁿga) to be replaced by Otoe iñe, as Sky has just noted. But I think either of those are quite possible and likely, so we might want more evidence from Otoe before we conclude that this ‘bear’ term was generally used in Otoe. Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:52 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Sky and Rory, Great posts - one thing to consider also is that it’s actually not an Otoe word per se. It’s possible for entire names to have been borrowed across tribes (or bestowed, think of the intertribal peace-making child adoption tradition of the Pipe Dance (Calumet in some soures), with the Beloved Child (it could be a girl or a boy) undergoing an elaborate ceremony. People might have multiple names (family kin name, clan name, later a name from an accomplishment, plus nicknames [‘uncle names’]. Is there a similar name in Dhegiha groups? Best, Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:43 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Sky, The wasabe term is not just Ponca; it’s Omaha, Kaw and (as wasape) Osage as well. I assume it’s common Dhegiha. It refers to the black bear, as opposed to the mąnto-equivalent term for ‘grizzly bear’. I’m sure you’re entirely right that the ‘Wathapay’ part of that name is an Otoe equivalent of Dhegiha *wasape. It looks like the ‘ignet’ must have been written by a Frenchman; it kind of threw me a little at first. :) Anyway, if the *wasape term was not known from Otoe before, that’s a great catch! So it looks like you have three terms for ‘bear’?? Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 1:50 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" I've had a name from an old Otoe treaty (1817) that has always puzzled me. The name is: Wathapayignet - the Small Bear There is no mųnje (bear/black bear) or mąnto (grizzly bear) terms to be found in there. The "small" part is easy enough to pull out of there (yignet = -inye). Then the thought struck me about the Ponca term for bear (wasabe) and how the Ponca "s" can sometimes be the Otoe "th" in cognate terms. This gives me "wathabe" as the term for bear. Now before I run with this, does anyone have anything to back this up? It certainly makes sense and the pieces fit. But I have never seen "wathabe" anywhere as an Otoe word for bear. But if I am right, this would give me: Wathabeinye - Small Bear If I am correct, then I'm thinking that this is an extremely old term. Anyone else come across this before? Sky -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jekoontz at MSN.COM Sat Apr 19 01:28:12 2014 From: jekoontz at MSN.COM (John Koontz) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2014 19:28:12 -0600 Subject: Aho! (IO -ka in Imperatives) In-Reply-To: <002801cf5587$9f2a5010$dd7ef030$@com> Message-ID: I think the closing quote mark would be glottalization. It should be compared with things that have glottal k, t, or p. Note that Dorsey uses the same opening quotation mark for glottalization of fricative and aspiration with stops (when he marks that). The closing quotation mark is ejective with stops. It's very confusing. I forget which option he uses with glottal stop alone. He calls ejectives "exploded." Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 08:11:59 -0500 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Subject: Re: Aho! (IO -ka in Imperatives) To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu I just remembered that I needed to respond to this email so I apologize for the delay! Outlook says I replied but I don't remember doing so...perhaps I started it but had to stop. For Dorsey, the ' character that I used actually looks like a ʾ (not sure if you can see that...think of a superscripted reversed "c"). Does that help? Last week I had someone come to my office and they were knowledgeable enough to have me bring this up to them. They looked at it and recognized it but couldn't immediately remember the details on it. They said they'd think on it and I expect to follow up with them soon. Your mention of kare/gare perhaps being a male imperative is interesting. I mentioned in another email how this time period (1830-40s) seems to show a shift away from some of the Ponca/Omaha morphemes to today's versions. Perhaps, as you suggested, this could be another. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of John Koontz Sent: Thursday, March 6, 2014 4:16 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! (IO -ka in Imperatives) In k'a what is '? If it is aspiration (opening quote) this sounds a little like the ubiquitous the (th = aspirate) in OP. It actually alternates with the inanimate articles (the ~ khe ~ dhaN ~ ge) and is associated with something like pastness. The alternants indicate something about the "shape" of the action, as they indicate the shape of the noun when they are inanimate articles. (And khe 'long, lying' occurs with animate things like snakes.) I am pretty sure that the sense of these forms in OP is not pastness per se but 'deducibility'. As a set they indicate that the action is deduced to have occurred (in the shape indicated). This contrasts with the ama particle that occurs with reported things (and conditions any preceding plural-proximate marker to be bi instead of I). The "proximate" term is one I have borrowed from Algonquian usage and is not very suitable. The general idea is that the action can be observed to occur and takes place under the independent volition of the third person singular subject. And this is (for some reason) marked with a plural marker on the third person subject. Only Dhegiha has this pattern. But it keeps coming up because I need to explain that a=i is 'he (proximate) said' in most places, even though it looks like 'they said'. There is a non-proximate, or obviative e 'he said', but it is vanishingly rare in texts. The a=i is also 'they said', of course. (The IO analogs of e and a=i are e and a=wi.) We have to be a little careful with associating ga's. Siouan languages are full of forms that look the same and mean something different. In OP ga is the masculine imperative, the "yonder" demonstrative, and the "by striking" instrumental besides the places where it turns up superficially because gi has contracted with a following a. There's also places where aN 'we' is followed by the locative prefix a- 'on' producing aNga-. From your examples I think you are safe in associating the cases of kare where there is an imperative meaning. If you have kare alternating indeterminately with re and in more modern examples completely replaced by re, maybe you just have a case of a historical change in usage observed in progress? I can think of all kinds of things that are somewhat irregular in OP and Da because they are changing and are controlled by the formulas the speaker has heard various others use, by their sense of style as it applies in a specific utterance, and so on. Because there is an male imperative particle ga in OP it is worth wondering if =ka=re originally marked male imperatives in IO. If it works at all like OP (where the female imperative is =a), I would expect re alone to be the female imperative and to condition the a-grade of preceding ablauting e. In other words, the female imperative would be =a=re, and that initial a would replace any preceding e. It might occasionally show up as an extra element if the preceding vowel wasn't e. So in OP =a=di 'in' changes preceding e to a, ppahe ~ ppahadi, and sometimes the a appears in forms like ppamu ~ ppamuadi, tti ~ ttiadi, or sometimes you just get =di and sometimes a preceding e doesn't change either. These last, simpler patterns are, of course, the modern ones. It looks like Whitman says the imperative does condition e > a. So, for what it's worth, that pattern is consistent. Conceivably the IO imperative in the early 1800 was something like the OP one, but with the additional element =re following it. The OP imperative can be extended (for male speakers anyway) by =hau, which is essentially the declarative. Sort of like "yep!" at the end of a sentence, maybe. And sort of like the =re in IO, except that the =re is always there are ends up surviving as the only element visible. As far as female speech forms replacing male speech forms, this is actually something that can happen. Or the reverse. And apart from apparently straight up changes like that, it is also possible that the difference between the two forms was actually something like a strong suggestion (=ka=re) vs. a milder, politer one (=a=re) and men are more culturally enabled to make strong suggestions. However, fashions in these things change continually. In general the sentence final particles are highly unstable in Siouan languages, and even closely related languages (or the same language at different periods) have different systems. It was suggested that ka might be 'yon'. We could even guess that ka (or ga) in an imperative might actually be historically the ga demonstrative, used as an imperative particle. Sort of "eat, that, do it!" I'm kind of reminded of the use of ese in Chicano Spanish, though I think that is more of a male declarative. I've never really figured it out! Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 22:30:11 -0600 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Aho! To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.eduYes, "naha" is an article going along the lines of "the", "that which", "the one who", etc. You've given me a lot to think about and a lot of terminology that I'll have to wrap my head around since I'm not familiar with it. My assistants and I spent over 3 hours today tracking down all the instances of Merrill and Hamilton's use of this -ga/-ka and mapped them to a grid on a large dry-erase board in an effort to try to find some kind of common element among all of them. Unfortunately we had no luck. We tried to think of everything we could think of when it came to those verbs. Were they transitive or intransitive? Animate or inanimate objects? Singular or plural? Was the object "known" to the speaker (meaning was the speaker referring to something specific...sort of along the lines of the idea of "that" I mentioned earlier)? Of course we know that we aren't looking for every possible criteria since there are many we don't know about (like some of the ideas you mentioned). I've mentioned several of our theories such as "that", "now", "in like manner", etc. But while we were plugging away I was perusing Dorsey's vocabulary slips and found this: k'a (masc) (adverb) - of action in past time, not continuing into the present And the example he gives is: Swagaxe k'a - you did write then (but you do not write now) So in this context, I wonder if perhaps it could be along the lines of (to use an example from before) "Look at the snake" perhaps with the idea that you were looking at the snake before but aren't now and I want you to do so again. This may not be correct though since Dorsey mentions "see also" and has the endings "ke", "ki", etc. so this may represent the end of a statement and not simply an adverb that can be used where needed. Dorsey also has a rather enigmatic term "kare" (or perhaps "k'are") where he mentions "It seems to imply that the thought or desire was not gratified" but he doesn't just list this term with that explanation but rather just uses it with examples such as: Ji kare hįrawi - we thought that he would have come hither (but he did not come) I'm noting that this is after the verb that they want to attach this to which matches the placement of the enigmatic -ga/-ka. So along these lines, perhaps it could be "Look at the snake" with the idea of I wanted you to look at the snake but you didn't so I am requesting/commanding again since you didn't do it before. Yet another couple theories to add to this :). Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of John Koontz Sent: Wednesday, March 5, 2014 9:00 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Aho! I would guess this pair contrasts something analogous to Omaha-Ponca 'to say' vs. 'to say to'. The 'say' stems are highly irregular in Omaha-Ponca like most Siouan, but underlyingly they are something like e=...he vs. e=gi=...he. So the first persons are ehe 'I said it' (from something like Proto-Dhegiha *e=phe) vs. egiphe 'I said (it) to him'. The third persons are a=i 'they said' vs. ega=i 'they said to him'. I've reconstructed the plural from memory of the logic of the system. What I remember is the unpluralized from ege (e=g(i)...(h)e). The gi element is the dative marker of course and the weird thing about (OP) 'say' is that that comes *before* the pronoun. When gi is followed by the root (h)e it contracts with it. I'm not sure the root is really -he in the third person. The first and second persons are clearly built on e=(gi)=...he, but the inclusive is usually from another verb entirely, and the third person behaves like e by itself in the simple stem and e=g(i)=...e in the dative. The initial e= is presumably an incorporated e 'the aforesaid'. And, of course, this is the quoting verb that follows a quotation. There's a form with initial ga 'yonder' that is used preceding a quotation. The third person is essentially always seen as a=(nothing) or a=i or a=bi with the plural-proximate marker following e and conditioning the a-grade of the stem. (So you almost never get a singular looking form, and if you did it would be just e, and so hard to know from a demonstrative e.) The =(nothing) form of the plural-proximate is current now when no other particle follows. Dorsey always has a=i or a=bi (the latter when the quotation is itself quoted in some way). Anyway, making allowances, I hope, for my poor grasp of IO, I make these e=wa-a naha 'the one who says something' vs. e=wa-g(i)-a naha 'the one who says (something) to someone' I hope I correctly remember naha as an article of some sort. If not ... When you add a dative to something then the object is the dative object and the "direct object" sort of falls out of the agreement pattern. Sometimes it hangs around in the sentence as a noun (or quotation) without governing anything in the verb. What the relationalists called a chomeur. I may have found a clue for "ka." Dorsey has the term: e-wa-na-ha - the speaker; the one speaking Then he has the term: e wa-ka-na-ha - the one who is meant; the person addressed I'm not sure how (or even if) this is related to the "ka" I am asking about but I'm trying to look at it in different ways to see if it fits somehow. Sky Campbell, B. A.Language DirectorOtoe-Missouria Tribe580-723-4466 ext. 111sky at omtribe.org -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jekoontz at MSN.COM Sat Apr 19 01:34:05 2014 From: jekoontz at MSN.COM (John Koontz) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2014 19:34:05 -0600 Subject: Number 'nine' in Chiwere. In-Reply-To: <002001cf5585$8348c770$89da5650$@com> Message-ID: And German j would be English y, so nj here is enye, which makes sense. It is possible that things were in flux when he visited, but it sounds like he might also possibly have gotten contaminated forms. Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 07:56:53 -0500 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Subject: Re: Number 'nine' in Chiwere. To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Yes, I suspect the "ch" is the "velar" one as well. Maximillian almost exclusively uses "j" as it is pronounced in French (which is noted for each time it is used). He'll have something like: clear (water), ni-bréjé (French); they give this name to the Mississippi But he also uses a "dj" to represent more of our "j" sound and also points out when the "j" is as in German. This next entry illustrates both: Sea, nih-chonn-djé (dje French); the Ayowas say, nih-chon-je (je German) What I also found interesting is that what we use a "ch" sound for nowadays (for example, "ch'e" for "die"), he has spelled as "tsä̇h". I'm curious about the "ts" rather than the "tsch" he often uses (and even the odd "tj"). Speaking of "tj", I wonder if Maximilian's time period during his travels (early 1830s) was part of a transition period moving from more of a "t" sound to "ch." For example, he has listed "tjä̇" for "buffalo" but has "teh-på-seh-nih" with the "teh" sounding much more Ponca/Omaha. Nowadays we have "che" for buffalo and his use of "t" for one and "tj" for the other has got me thinking :). Plus where we have more ð and Θ now, back then you see more "s" sounds. Fascinating stuff :). One thing to note though is that Maximilian notes that he got his pronunciations from Major Dougherty rather than an Otoe or Missouria speaker. I'm also interested in the "intensifier" being used with the number one. This is my first experience with it (assuming that is what it is) and the first I've heard that it is common. I'll keep an eye out for it :). Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of John Koontz Sent: Tuesday, April 8, 2014 1:11 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Number 'nine' in Chiwere. I'm sorry, some of my text comes out blue. The quotes are marked with >. > Your take on the pronunciations are what I have found as well. Maximilian was really big on the "x" sound which he represented as "ch". Most of his entries with "ch" have a note that says something like "ch guttural." There are two ch's in German. The "gutteral" (velar) one in ach, and the "soft" (or palatal) one in ich. So I expect he's trying to make it clear it's the more velar of the two readings for ch. > And I am also of the opinion that his "sch" is our "sh" sound. Yes. That's the German spelling for what English writes sh. Both actually from Proto-German sk, cf. English doublets like skirt and shirt, or skipper and ship (where the one with k is generally a loan term). > He also simply uses an "s" where he felt it was needed. Although some of his spellings aren't always consistent when he is going with the same word (used in other areas), he does seem to have taken great care to represent pronunciations as accurately as possible. Most of his terms have little notes (as I mentioned above) with them. And from what I've seen of his use of "tsch", it seems to be a "ch" pronounced somewhat forcefully (I don't know the technical term for that). He's essentially transcribing what he hears phonetically, not writing in a standard more or less phonemic orthography. Tsch is standard German spelling for what English writes ch. A forceful one would probably be an aspirated one. The less aspiration, the more it would sound like English j, where German would have orthographic difficulties. > I hadn't considered the idea of the term being reinvented in Osage. I guess it shouldn't be surprising that a culture that has those types of conventions might fill a need in the same manner as before. It depends a lot on the cultural context, but number words are often forgotten or borrowed. For some reason this is not especially true in Indo-European, so it's kind of unexpected. I remember that Omaha speakers were particularly prone to substituting English numerals (and date terms, etc.) even in conversation that was otherwise Omaha. > I'd wondered about the "xce" as well as far as being an intensifier. In Otoe-Missouria, you have a few variants that I've come across. First is more of the "h" sound with "-hji". But I've also often found that where you have a sort of "intrusive h", there are often "x" variants (for example, hga/xga for "white"). So I've also seen "-xji" as well. And to top it off, there are a lot of "s" sounds that work in there as well. I hear the "s" version pronounced often where I work. So that suffix would be "-sji" (other examples would be "wanuhje/wanusje" for "animal"). Another thing to consider is perhaps Maximilian's "ch" for the "xce" portion might be that "k" sound that emerges with glottal stops (I don't know the technical term for it but Hamilton and Irvin document it a lot in their Ioway books). The =xti ~ =xc^i intensifier enclitic, generally glossed 'very' often used in a sense of 'real' or 'just, exactly' is common with 'one'. > Ø Nine, grä̇bena – tscheh – uïningkä̇Ø (the whole run together); i. e.,Ø ten less one; they also say,Ø schangká lebraN (krebraN) =che wiN niNg(e?)ten the one it-lacks che = he with aspirated c (ts), 'the (vertical, inanimate)'. Os che < PDh *the, with *th > ch before e (and i). In general 'vertical' (in a pile) is used with quantities. I agree with Rory that the historical form is s^aNkka, a word that appears widely in Eastern North America, so historically a loan, but I imagine that more analytical terms are fairly common. You can find 'two fours' for 'eight' here and there, and sometimes you find variations like 'sitting on it, two' vs. 'two sixes' , in various languages. We're used to thinking of number systems as fixed, and our modern arithmetic and commercial traditions insist on it, but in many cultural contexts there's less "standardization" or numerals. > I looked up ‘nine’ in Carolyn Quitero’s Osage Dictionary, and the first (long) term is the only one she seems to have listed: lébrą hce wįįke This is the same term., of course, with the initial nasal between wiN and (n)iNge 'to lack' omitted. > Dhegiha *gr- generally goes to l- in Osage and Kaw, but apparently in Maximilian’s time the leading /g/ was still present. His ‘ä’ and his ‘eh’ apparently both represent what we write as /e/, while the ‘e’ between the ‘b’ and the ‘n’ presumably represents schwa. The ‘n’ in the first word would be /r/ followed by a nasal vowel. In Omaha, the corresponding word for ‘ten’ at that time was grébrą, now shortened to grébą. I agree with all this analysis by Rory. The corresponding form in Dakotan (wIN)kc^emna(N) shows us that Proto-Siouan 'ten' is something like *kyepraN. Some people might prefer to think of it as *kyewraN. I don't think there's any contrast between *pr and *wr except "part of speech," which essentially encodes collections of phonological context. Except in Dakotan the *Cy and *Cr clusters fall together. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG Mon Apr 21 13:29:25 2014 From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2014 08:29:25 -0500 Subject: Number 'nine' in Chiwere. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I’ve also thought about the “contaminated forms.” Maximilian got his Otoe language information (among other tribes’ language info) from Major Dougherty who was said to speak quite a few of them (I think I remember reading somewhere that he was said to have spoken 11 of them). So not only do we have to hope that he didn’t accidentally mix anything up, but we also have to consider that his non-Indian accent wasn’t working its way in there when he was pronouncing these for Maximilian. Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of John Koontz Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 8:34 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Number 'nine' in Chiwere. And German j would be English y, so nj here is enye, which makes sense. It is possible that things were in flux when he visited, but it sounds like he might also possibly have gotten contaminated forms. ________________________________ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 07:56:53 -0500 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Subject: Re: Number 'nine' in Chiwere. To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Yes, I suspect the "ch" is the "velar" one as well. Maximillian almost exclusively uses "j" as it is pronounced in French (which is noted for each time it is used). He'll have something like: clear (water), ni-bréjé (French); they give this name to the Mississippi But he also uses a "dj" to represent more of our "j" sound and also points out when the "j" is as in German. This next entry illustrates both: Sea, nih-chonn-djé (dje French); the Ayowas say, nih-chon-je (je German) What I also found interesting is that what we use a "ch" sound for nowadays (for example, "ch'e" for "die"), he has spelled as "tsä̇h". I'm curious about the "ts" rather than the "tsch" he often uses (and even the odd "tj"). Speaking of "tj", I wonder if Maximilian's time period during his travels (early 1830s) was part of a transition period moving from more of a "t" sound to "ch." For example, he has listed "tjä̇" for "buffalo" but has "teh-på-seh-nih" with the "teh" sounding much more Ponca/Omaha. Nowadays we have "che" for buffalo and his use of "t" for one and "tj" for the other has got me thinking :). Plus where we have more ð and Θ now, back then you see more "s" sounds. Fascinating stuff :). One thing to note though is that Maximilian notes that he got his pronunciations from Major Dougherty rather than an Otoe or Missouria speaker. I'm also interested in the "intensifier" being used with the number one. This is my first experience with it (assuming that is what it is) and the first I've heard that it is common. I'll keep an eye out for it :). Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of John Koontz Sent: Tuesday, April 8, 2014 1:11 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Number 'nine' in Chiwere. I'm sorry, some of my text comes out blue. The quotes are marked with >. > Your take on the pronunciations are what I have found as well. Maximilian was really big on the "x" sound which he represented as "ch". Most of his entries with "ch" have a note that says something like "ch guttural." There are two ch's in German. The "gutteral" (velar) one in ach, and the "soft" (or palatal) one in ich. So I expect he's trying to make it clear it's the more velar of the two readings for ch. > And I am also of the opinion that his "sch" is our "sh" sound. Yes. That's the German spelling for what English writes sh. Both actually from Proto-German sk, cf. English doublets like skirt and shirt, or skipper and ship (where the one with k is generally a loan term). > He also simply uses an "s" where he felt it was needed. Although some of his spellings aren't always consistent when he is going with the same word (used in other areas), he does seem to have taken great care to represent pronunciations as accurately as possible. Most of his terms have little notes (as I mentioned above) with them. And from what I've seen of his use of "tsch", it seems to be a "ch" pronounced somewhat forcefully (I don't know the technical term for that). He's essentially transcribing what he hears phonetically, not writing in a standard more or less phonemic orthography. Tsch is standard German spelling for what English writes ch. A forceful one would probably be an aspirated one. The less aspiration, the more it would sound like English j, where German would have orthographic difficulties. > I hadn't considered the idea of the term being reinvented in Osage. I guess it shouldn't be surprising that a culture that has those types of conventions might fill a need in the same manner as before. It depends a lot on the cultural context, but number words are often forgotten or borrowed. For some reason this is not especially true in Indo-European, so it's kind of unexpected. I remember that Omaha speakers were particularly prone to substituting English numerals (and date terms, etc.) even in conversation that was otherwise Omaha. > I'd wondered about the "xce" as well as far as being an intensifier. In Otoe-Missouria, you have a few variants that I've come across. First is more of the "h" sound with "-hji". But I've also often found that where you have a sort of "intrusive h", there are often "x" variants (for example, hga/xga for "white"). So I've also seen "-xji" as well. And to top it off, there are a lot of "s" sounds that work in there as well. I hear the "s" version pronounced often where I work. So that suffix would be "-sji" (other examples would be "wanuhje/wanusje" for "animal"). Another thing to consider is perhaps Maximilian's "ch" for the "xce" portion might be that "k" sound that emerges with glottal stops (I don't know the technical term for it but Hamilton and Irvin document it a lot in their Ioway books). The =xti ~ =xc^i intensifier enclitic, generally glossed 'very' often used in a sense of 'real' or 'just, exactly' is common with 'one'. > > Nine, grä̇bena – tscheh – uïningkä̇ > (the whole run together); i. e., > ten less one; they also say, > schangká lebraN (krebraN) =che wiN niNg(e?) ten the one it-lacks che = he with aspirated c (ts), 'the (vertical, inanimate)'. Os che < PDh *the, with *th > ch before e (and i). In general 'vertical' (in a pile) is used with quantities. I agree with Rory that the historical form is s^aNkka, a word that appears widely in Eastern North America, so historically a loan, but I imagine that more analytical terms are fairly common. You can find 'two fours' for 'eight' here and there, and sometimes you find variations like 'sitting on it, two' vs. 'two sixes' , in various languages. We're used to thinking of number systems as fixed, and our modern arithmetic and commercial traditions insist on it, but in many cultural contexts there's less "standardization" or numerals. > I looked up ‘nine’ in Carolyn Quitero’s Osage Dictionary, and the first (long) term is the only one she seems to have listed: lébrą hce wįįke This is the same term., of course, with the initial nasal between wiN and (n)iNge 'to lack' omitted. > Dhegiha *gr- generally goes to l- in Osage and Kaw, but apparently in Maximilian’s time the leading /g/ was still present. His ‘ä’ and his ‘eh’ apparently both represent what we write as /e/, while the ‘e’ between the ‘b’ and the ‘n’ presumably represents schwa. The ‘n’ in the first word would be /r/ followed by a nasal vowel. In Omaha, the corresponding word for ‘ten’ at that time was grébrą, now shortened to grébą. I agree with all this analysis by Rory. The corresponding form in Dakotan (wIN)kc^emna(N) shows us that Proto-Siouan 'ten' is something like *kyepraN. Some people might prefer to think of it as *kyewraN. I don't think there's any contrast between *pr and *wr except "part of speech," which essentially encodes collections of phonological context. Except in Dakotan the *Cy and *Cr clusters fall together. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Mon Apr 21 14:34:22 2014 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2014 14:34:22 +0000 Subject: Chiwere pronunciation In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E436C33F979867@Server6-EX.omtribe.net> Message-ID: Ø What I also found interesting is that what we use a "ch" sound for nowadays (for example, "ch'e" for "die"), he has spelled as "tsä̇h". I'm curious about the "ts" rather than the "tsch" he often uses (and even the odd "tj"). Speaking of "tj", I wonder if Maximilian's time period during his travels (early 1830s) was part of a transition period moving from more of a "t" sound to "ch." For example, he has listed "tjä̇" for "buffalo" but has "teh-på-seh-nih" with the "teh" sounding much more Ponca/Omaha. Nowadays we have "che" for buffalo and his use of "t" for one and "tj" for the other has got me thinking :). Perhaps we should reconstruct a palatalized “t” here. As English speakers, we may be focussing too much on the fricative or affricate quality when we break this down as “ch”, or “t” + “sh”, or “t” + “s”. But what may be going on is that the tongue is simply bowed forward into the position it would assume for English “ee” or hard “y”, even before the “t” is articulated, in anticipation of a front vowel, /e/ or /i/, that will follow the “t”. If you try pronouncing “t” that way, a fricative “s” or “sh” sound will follow very easily, especially if there is any force of breath at all on the release. But from the native point of view, it’s still just a “t”. Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky Sent: Monday, April 21, 2014 8:29 AM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: Number 'nine' in Chiwere. I’ve also thought about the “contaminated forms.” Maximilian got his Otoe language information (among other tribes’ language info) from Major Dougherty who was said to speak quite a few of them (I think I remember reading somewhere that he was said to have spoken 11 of them). So not only do we have to hope that he didn’t accidentally mix anything up, but we also have to consider that his non-Indian accent wasn’t working its way in there when he was pronouncing these for Maximilian. Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of John Koontz Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 8:34 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Number 'nine' in Chiwere. And German j would be English y, so nj here is enye, which makes sense. It is possible that things were in flux when he visited, but it sounds like he might also possibly have gotten contaminated forms. ________________________________ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 07:56:53 -0500 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Subject: Re: Number 'nine' in Chiwere. To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Yes, I suspect the "ch" is the "velar" one as well. Maximillian almost exclusively uses "j" as it is pronounced in French (which is noted for each time it is used). He'll have something like: clear (water), ni-bréjé (French); they give this name to the Mississippi But he also uses a "dj" to represent more of our "j" sound and also points out when the "j" is as in German. This next entry illustrates both: Sea, nih-chonn-djé (dje French); the Ayowas say, nih-chon-je (je German) What I also found interesting is that what we use a "ch" sound for nowadays (for example, "ch'e" for "die"), he has spelled as "tsä̇h". I'm curious about the "ts" rather than the "tsch" he often uses (and even the odd "tj"). Speaking of "tj", I wonder if Maximilian's time period during his travels (early 1830s) was part of a transition period moving from more of a "t" sound to "ch." For example, he has listed "tjä̇" for "buffalo" but has "teh-på-seh-nih" with the "teh" sounding much more Ponca/Omaha. Nowadays we have "che" for buffalo and his use of "t" for one and "tj" for the other has got me thinking :). Plus where we have more ð and Θ now, back then you see more "s" sounds. Fascinating stuff :). One thing to note though is that Maximilian notes that he got his pronunciations from Major Dougherty rather than an Otoe or Missouria speaker. I'm also interested in the "intensifier" being used with the number one. This is my first experience with it (assuming that is what it is) and the first I've heard that it is common. I'll keep an eye out for it :). Sky -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG Mon Apr 21 16:50:14 2014 From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2014 11:50:14 -0500 Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" In-Reply-To: <000801cf5b5a$45b0c270$d1124750$@com> Message-ID: I found this while going through some of Dorsey’s names: Wa-ça-́pe yiñ-́e, Tciwere notation of the Cegiha, Wasabe jiñga, Young Black bear. See Mŭⁿtcinye. He shows this as an Otoe-Missouria Bear Clan name and there isn’t a mention of this individual belonging to another tribe. This list was made about 60+ years after the same name on the 1817 treaty. Could this be the same guy? Possible…especially since he often lists deceased individuals (no mention of that here though). I’d find it unlikely (but not impossible) that the same individual was still alive so I’m thinking that either he was given the name by someone, there was another individual living at that time with the same name, or perhaps he even got it off of the 1817 treaty and just added it to his list. What I find interesting is the “Tciwere notation of…” statement. I’m trying to figure out if he is trying to indicate that this name is an Otoe-Missouria cognate of the Dhegiha term (as in it was perhaps used regularly) or if it was a one-time thing and this was simply an Otoe-ization of Wasabe Zhinga. Him listing it as a Bear Clan name has me slightly leaning toward the former. What I also find interesting, regardless of which of the above scenarios is correct for this term, is why were two portions of this word “shifted” to an Otoe-Missouria form (the s to a th and zhinga to –inye) and not a potential third? Why didn’t the “b (p)” turn into a “w” as seen in other cognates? And naturally I didn’t stumble upon this information looking for this specific name…I was looking for something else!! [cid:image002.jpg at 01CF5D57.DB5459F0] Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 6:02 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Importance: Low Jimm, Very true...I've also seen a handful of names referring to other tribes (Ioway, Pawnee, Pottawatomie, Omaha, etc.). It makes me curious about if this person were from another tribe (at least in part), what the scenario was that allowed them to inherit and/or rise through the ranks to become someone important enough to sign a treaty. Jill, I know what you mean. I've considered the possibility of using variations. I know we only met briefly at Breath of Life last year so I don't know how much of my West Virginia accent/slang came out for you to hear but I do know that it does emerge from time to time (much to my wife's amusement when I say something like "I ain't eat yet" :) ). It's been years since I've lived there but those remnants still bubble to the surface. I think people are often flabbergasted when they find out that I work with languages LOL. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 1:18 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Interesting! Remember that as people like the American dialectologist William Labov taught us, if there are variations in how to pronounce something within a language, it’s rarely the case that anyone uses only one variation always, and the other group only uses the alternate. And the social context can subtly affect which one is chosen, even below the conscious level of the speaker. So, New York City speakers from a working class neighborhood might use the classic ‘r’ dropping X percent of the time, say 65% (John Boyle can probably remember this exactly), while middle class folks might only ‘drop their [r]’ 30%, and upper class folks might only have it 5% of the time, just as an example. It always seemed to me since so many Otoe-Missouria had Ioway kin (and vice versa) that an absolute 100% consistency in using the alternate forms (like the inye vs. inge example here) would be very unlikely. So beyond the possible differences in the persons’ hearing and transcription, it might have been perfectly acceptable to pronounce the name both ways, at the same point in time. (In this part of SW Missouri, Sky, your last name would traditionally be said more like the desert animal, Camel ☺; we had dear neighbors who I knew only by hearing their names spoken, and was surprised to find out later that the spelling had not one but two “silent letters”). Then a new girl of the same surname came to school, and she pronounced it Cam-bell, (still the silent p), so I added that variation for her name, but that didn’t change the way I addressed the older folks at church.... Best, Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 3:00 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Found this in the next treaty (1825) while trying to figure out yet another name LOL. Waw-zob-e-ing-ge And once I saw it, I remembered seeing it before. Now I have a shift from "th" to "z" in a span of 8 years and it has me questioning if "ignet" was actually supposed to represent -inye or -inge. If the first one was in face -inye then here you have another shift to -inge. Presumably this same individual was there to pronounce his name for whoever was writing it down. And if so, he changed 1 (and maybe 2) part of his name. A number of scenarios come to mind for the change (perhaps another one of the signers pronounced it for him) but it would still be nice to get this sorted out :). Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:27 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Whoops - I meant Dhegiha there. Sorry all! Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:22 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Good point Sky - Of course, there could be lots of alternative words for many things that we just don’t have examples, so this is exciting. Names are always fascinating. I must be getting hunger this afternoon, because Wasabi is a Japanese restaurant in town here, and the thought of wonderful hot horseradish came to my mind when your Otoe word was on the screen… ☺ Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:12 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" That’s a very good point, Jill, and well taken. Yes, there is an equivalent name, at least in the Thatada clan, which is Wasabe-zhiⁿga. If the term Sky found is a borrowing, it shows that understanding between the two groups at the time was good enough to cause Dhegiha ‘s’ to shift forward to Otoe ‘th’, and for the Dhegiha ‘small’ term (zhiⁿga) to be replaced by Otoe iñe, as Sky has just noted. But I think either of those are quite possible and likely, so we might want more evidence from Otoe before we conclude that this ‘bear’ term was generally used in Otoe. Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:52 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Sky and Rory, Great posts - one thing to consider also is that it’s actually not an Otoe word per se. It’s possible for entire names to have been borrowed across tribes (or bestowed, think of the intertribal peace-making child adoption tradition of the Pipe Dance (Calumet in some soures), with the Beloved Child (it could be a girl or a boy) undergoing an elaborate ceremony. People might have multiple names (family kin name, clan name, later a name from an accomplishment, plus nicknames [‘uncle names’]. Is there a similar name in Dhegiha groups? Best, Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:43 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Sky, The wasabe term is not just Ponca; it’s Omaha, Kaw and (as wasape) Osage as well. I assume it’s common Dhegiha. It refers to the black bear, as opposed to the mąnto-equivalent term for ‘grizzly bear’. I’m sure you’re entirely right that the ‘Wathapay’ part of that name is an Otoe equivalent of Dhegiha *wasape. It looks like the ‘ignet’ must have been written by a Frenchman; it kind of threw me a little at first. :) Anyway, if the *wasape term was not known from Otoe before, that’s a great catch! So it looks like you have three terms for ‘bear’?? Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 1:50 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" I've had a name from an old Otoe treaty (1817) that has always puzzled me. The name is: Wathapayignet - the Small Bear There is no mųnje (bear/black bear) or mąnto (grizzly bear) terms to be found in there. The "small" part is easy enough to pull out of there (yignet = -inye). Then the thought struck me about the Ponca term for bear (wasabe) and how the Ponca "s" can sometimes be the Otoe "th" in cognate terms. This gives me "wathabe" as the term for bear. Now before I run with this, does anyone have anything to back this up? It certainly makes sense and the pieces fit. But I have never seen "wathabe" anywhere as an Otoe word for bear. But if I am right, this would give me: Wathabeinye - Small Bear If I am correct, then I'm thinking that this is an extremely old term. Anyone else come across this before? Sky -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 11974 bytes Desc: image002.jpg URL: From jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU Mon Apr 21 17:55:00 2014 From: jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU (Mcbride, Justin) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2014 12:55:00 -0500 Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E436C33F9798D9@Server6-EX.omtribe.net> Message-ID: Sky, > Why didn’t the “b (p)” turn into a “w” as seen in other cognates? I don't know much at all about OM, but in Ks, it's always wise to keep in mind that the language was really never static until it ceased to be spoken; individual and group variations are always present in living languages, as Bill Labov would tell you, and these variations ultimately drive language change over time. As such, the phonological correspondences that seem to be reliably stable later on--a good example of this is plain /l/ in Ks or Os for what is OP /gð/ or Qu /kd~kn/--don't always appear to bear out so reliably in historical documents. This is especially true of traditional names, which are often quite conservative. So, there are numerous instances of Dorsey listing Ks names with, say, 'hawk' written as gledaN, when none of the 20th century speakers would have had that /gl/ onset in everyday speech. Unfortunately, Dorsey's or other people's descriptive snapshots don't really provide enough information to know the full story: It may have been that /gl/ may still have been in the process of transitioning to /l/ at the time of the documentation, leaving some potential informants with /gl/ and others with /l/. Or, it may be that /gl/ had completely disappeared in everyday speech, but was only retained in names. Or, it may have been something else entirely. Bear in mind also that, at least in Dhegiha, /p~b~w~m/ and even /β/ vary greatly before front vowels. This yields cases of bekkaNj^e~wekkaNj^e~mekkaNj^e (the last of which is really odd, since we would never expect /m/ before an oral vowel in Ks) from contemporary speakers for one of the most common but not easily translatable female names in Ks. Dorsey doesn't have a really consistent way of spelling this phenomenon, and it may be because his informants didn't necessarily agree. If OM is at all similar in its lack of consistency in this environment, it's not surprising to have a rather unexpected spelling here, especially if only one guy had the name. All the best, -Justin On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 11:50 AM, Campbell, Sky wrote: > I found this while going through some of Dorsey’s names: > > > > Wa-ça-́pe yiñ-́e, Tciwere notation of the Cegiha, Wasabe jiñga, Young > Black bear. See Mŭⁿtcinye. > > > > He shows this as an Otoe-Missouria Bear Clan name and there isn’t a > mention of this individual belonging to another tribe. This list was made > about 60+ years after the same name on the 1817 treaty. Could this be the > same guy? Possible…especially since he often lists deceased individuals > (no mention of that here though). I’d find it unlikely (but not > impossible) that the same individual was still alive so I’m thinking that > either he was given the name by someone, there was another individual > living at that time with the same name, or perhaps he even got it off of > the 1817 treaty and just added it to his list. What I find interesting is > the “Tciwere notation of…” statement. I’m trying to figure out if he is > trying to indicate that this name is an Otoe-Missouria cognate of the > Dhegiha term (as in it was perhaps used regularly) or if it was a one-time > thing and this was simply an Otoe-ization of Wasabe Zhinga. Him listing it > as a Bear Clan name has me slightly leaning toward the former. > > > > What I also find interesting, regardless of which of the above scenarios > is correct for this term, is why were two portions of this word “shifted” > to an Otoe-Missouria form (the s to a th and zhinga to –inye) and not a > potential third? Why didn’t the “b (p)” turn into a “w” as seen in other > cognates? > > > > And naturally I didn’t stumble upon this information looking for this > specific name…I was looking for something else!! > > > > > > [image: Wathabeinye.jpg] > > > > *Sky Campbell, B. A.* > > Language Director > > Otoe-Missouria Tribe > > 580-723-4466 ext. 111 > > sky at omtribe.org > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of > *Sky Campbell > *Sent:* Friday, April 18, 2014 6:02 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" > *Importance:* Low > > > > Jimm, > > > > Very true...I've also seen a handful of names referring to other tribes > (Ioway, Pawnee, Pottawatomie, Omaha, etc.). It makes me curious about if > this person were from another tribe (at least in part), what the scenario > was that allowed them to inherit and/or rise through the ranks to become > someone important enough to sign a treaty. > > > > Jill, > > > > I know what you mean. I've considered the possibility of using > variations. I know we only met briefly at Breath of Life last year so I > don't know how much of my West Virginia accent/slang came out for you to > hear but I do know that it does emerge from time to time (much to my wife's > amusement when I say something like "I ain't eat yet" :) ). It's been > years since I've lived there but those remnants still bubble to the > surface. I think people are often flabbergasted when they find out that I > work with languages LOL. > > > > Sky > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] > *On Behalf Of *Greer, Jill > *Sent:* Friday, April 18, 2014 1:18 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" > > > > Interesting! Remember that as people like the American dialectologist > William Labov taught us, if there are variations in how to pronounce > something within a language, it’s rarely the case that anyone uses only > one variation always, and the other group only uses the alternate. And > the social context can subtly affect which one is chosen, even below the > conscious level of the speaker. So, New York City speakers from a working > class neighborhood might use the classic ‘r’ dropping X percent of the > time, say 65% (John Boyle can probably remember this exactly), while > middle class folks might only ‘drop their [r]’ 30%, and upper class folks > might only have it 5% of the time, just as an example. > > > > It always seemed to me since so many Otoe-Missouria had Ioway kin (and > vice versa) that an absolute 100% consistency in using the alternate forms > (like the inye vs. inge example here) would be very unlikely. So beyond > the possible differences in the persons’ hearing and transcription, it > might have been perfectly acceptable to pronounce the name both ways, at > the same point in time. > > (In this part of SW Missouri, Sky, your last name would traditionally > be said more like the desert animal, Camel J; we had dear neighbors who > I knew only by hearing their names spoken, and was surprised to find out > later that the spelling had not one but two “silent letters”). Then a new > girl of the same surname came to school, and she pronounced it Cam-bell, > (still the silent p), so I added that variation for her name, but that > didn’t change the way I addressed the older folks at church.... > > > > Best, > > Jill > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] > *On Behalf Of *Sky Campbell > *Sent:* Thursday, April 17, 2014 3:00 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" > > > > Found this in the next treaty (1825) while trying to figure out yet > another name LOL. > > > > Waw-zob-e-ing-ge > > > > And once I saw it, I remembered seeing it before. Now I have a shift from > "th" to "z" in a span of 8 years and it has me questioning if "ignet" was > actually supposed to represent -inye or -inge. If the first one was in > face -inye then here you have another shift to -inge. Presumably this same > individual was there to pronounce his name for whoever was writing it > down. And if so, he changed 1 (and maybe 2) part of his name. A number of > scenarios come to mind for the change (perhaps another one of the signers > pronounced it for him) but it would still be nice to get this sorted out :). > > > > Sky > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] > *On Behalf Of *Greer, Jill > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:27 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" > > > > Whoops - I meant Dhegiha there. Sorry all! Jill > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] > *On Behalf Of *Greer, Jill > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:22 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" > > > > Good point Sky - Of course, there could be lots of alternative words for > many things that we just don’t have examples, so this is exciting. Names > are always fascinating. I must be getting hunger this afternoon, because > Wasabi is a Japanese restaurant in town here, and the thought of wonderful > hot horseradish came to my mind when your Otoe word was on the screen… J > > > > Jill > > > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] > *On Behalf Of *Rory Larson > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:12 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" > > > > That’s a very good point, Jill, and well taken. Yes, there is an > equivalent name, at least in the Thatada clan, which is Wasabe-zhiⁿga. If > the term Sky found is a borrowing, it shows that understanding between the > two groups at the time was good enough to cause Dhegiha ‘s’ to shift > forward to Otoe ‘th’, and for the Dhegiha ‘small’ term (zhiⁿga) to be > replaced by Otoe iñe, as Sky has just noted. But I think either of those > are quite possible and likely, so we might want more evidence from Otoe > before we conclude that this ‘bear’ term was generally used in Otoe. > > > > Best, > > Rory > > > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] > *On Behalf Of *Greer, Jill > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:52 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU > *Subject:* Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" > > > > Sky and Rory, > > Great posts - one thing to consider also is that it’s actually not an > Otoe word per se. It’s possible for entire names to have been borrowed > across tribes (or bestowed, think of the intertribal peace-making child > adoption tradition of the Pipe Dance (Calumet in some soures), with the > Beloved Child (it could be a girl or a boy) undergoing an elaborate > ceremony. People might have multiple names (family kin name, clan name, > later a name from an accomplishment, plus nicknames [‘uncle names’]. Is > there a similar name in Dhegiha groups? > > > > Best, > > Jill > > > > > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] > *On Behalf Of *Rory Larson > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:43 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" > > > > Sky, > > > > The *wasabe* term is not just Ponca; it’s Omaha, Kaw and (as *wasape*) > Osage as well. I assume it’s common Dhegiha. It refers to the black bear, > as opposed to the *mąnto*-equivalent term for ‘grizzly bear’. I’m sure > you’re entirely right that the ‘Wathapay’ part of that name is an Otoe > equivalent of Dhegiha **wasape*. It looks like the ‘ignet’ must have > been written by a Frenchman; it kind of threw me a little at first. :) > > > > Anyway, if the **wasape* term was not known from Otoe before, that’s a > great catch! So it looks like you have three terms for ‘bear’?? > > > > Best, > > Rory > > > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] > *On Behalf Of *Sky Campbell > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 16, 2014 1:50 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU > *Subject:* Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" > > > > I've had a name from an old Otoe treaty (1817) that has always puzzled > me. The name is: > > > > Wathapayignet - the Small Bear > > > > There is no *mųnje* (bear/black bear) or *mąnto* (grizzly bear) terms to > be found in there. The "small" part is easy enough to pull out of there > (yignet = -inye). Then the thought struck me about the Ponca term for bear > (wasabe) and how the Ponca "s" can sometimes be the Otoe "th" in cognate > terms. This gives me "wathabe" as the term for bear. Now before I run > with this, does anyone have anything to back this up? It certainly makes > sense and the pieces fit. But I have never seen "wathabe" anywhere as an > Otoe word for bear. But if I am right, this would give me: > > > > Wathabeinye - Small Bear > > > > If I am correct, then I'm thinking that this is an *extremely* old term. > > > > Anyone else come across this before? > > > > Sky > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's > DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from > Yahoo.com > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's > DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from > Yahoo.com > > > > This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject > to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for > the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended > recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of > the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by > law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please > notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's > DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from > Yahoo.com > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's > DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from > Yahoo.com > > > > This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject > to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for > the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended > recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of > the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by > law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please > notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's > DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from > Yahoo.com > > > > This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject > to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for > the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended > recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of > the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by > law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please > notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's > DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from > Yahoo.com > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's > DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from > Yahoo.com > > > > This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject > to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for > the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended > recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of > the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by > law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please > notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's > DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from > Yahoo.com > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's > DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from > Yahoo.com > > ­­ > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's > DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from > Yahoo.com > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 11974 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Mon Apr 21 19:12:11 2014 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2014 19:12:11 +0000 Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E436C33F9798D9@Server6-EX.omtribe.net> Message-ID: Ø What I also find interesting, regardless of which of the above scenarios is correct for this term, is why were two portions of this word “shifted” to an Otoe-Missouria form (the s to a th and zhinga to –inye) and not a potential third? Why didn’t the “b (p)” turn into a “w” as seen in other cognates? That’s a very good observation, and I think it probably tells us that the word is a loan from Dhegiha, as Jill suggested, not a native Otoe-Missouria form. They would have understood the meaning well enough to change the ‘small’ word to their own term for “small”. The shift from /s/ to dental voiceless fricative “th” may have happened after the name was adopted, or else “th” may still have been the closest thing to /s/ they had when they adopted it. The main term is apparently analyzable in Dhegiha as wa-sabe, “the Black One”, based on sabe, meaning ‘black’. But in Chiwere, the word for ‘black’ seems to be thewe, which is presumably cognate to Dhegiha sebe, meaning ‘shadowed’. Going off Jimm’s Baxoje Dictionary, it looks like thewe is the only word for ‘black’ in that language, with no equivalent for Dhegiha sabe. So the term may not even be analyzable in Chiwere. That would mean that they pulled it in as a whole unanalyzed unit, complete with the foreign pronunciation. It would be like one of us, being gifted with the name from Omaha relatives, calling ourselves to other English speakers, “Little Wasabe” rather than “Little Blackbear”. ‘Little’ might have been a standard naming word in Otoe-Missouria that no one cared to mess with, but perhaps as a foreign term Wasabe carried a cachet that might have been lacking if they had translated it into the native Otoe-Missouria word for ‘black bear’. Incidentally, I believe that Comanche also adopted the wasabe term for ‘black bear’ from Dhegiha. Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky Sent: Monday, April 21, 2014 11:50 AM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" I found this while going through some of Dorsey’s names: Wa-ça-́pe yiñ-́e, Tciwere notation of the Cegiha, Wasabe jiñga, Young Black bear. See Mŭⁿtcinye. He shows this as an Otoe-Missouria Bear Clan name and there isn’t a mention of this individual belonging to another tribe. This list was made about 60+ years after the same name on the 1817 treaty. Could this be the same guy? Possible…especially since he often lists deceased individuals (no mention of that here though). I’d find it unlikely (but not impossible) that the same individual was still alive so I’m thinking that either he was given the name by someone, there was another individual living at that time with the same name, or perhaps he even got it off of the 1817 treaty and just added it to his list. What I find interesting is the “Tciwere notation of…” statement. I’m trying to figure out if he is trying to indicate that this name is an Otoe-Missouria cognate of the Dhegiha term (as in it was perhaps used regularly) or if it was a one-time thing and this was simply an Otoe-ization of Wasabe Zhinga. Him listing it as a Bear Clan name has me slightly leaning toward the former. What I also find interesting, regardless of which of the above scenarios is correct for this term, is why were two portions of this word “shifted” to an Otoe-Missouria form (the s to a th and zhinga to –inye) and not a potential third? Why didn’t the “b (p)” turn into a “w” as seen in other cognates? And naturally I didn’t stumble upon this information looking for this specific name…I was looking for something else!! [Wathabeinye.jpg] Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 6:02 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Importance: Low Jimm, Very true...I've also seen a handful of names referring to other tribes (Ioway, Pawnee, Pottawatomie, Omaha, etc.). It makes me curious about if this person were from another tribe (at least in part), what the scenario was that allowed them to inherit and/or rise through the ranks to become someone important enough to sign a treaty. Jill, I know what you mean. I've considered the possibility of using variations. I know we only met briefly at Breath of Life last year so I don't know how much of my West Virginia accent/slang came out for you to hear but I do know that it does emerge from time to time (much to my wife's amusement when I say something like "I ain't eat yet" :) ). It's been years since I've lived there but those remnants still bubble to the surface. I think people are often flabbergasted when they find out that I work with languages LOL. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 1:18 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Interesting! Remember that as people like the American dialectologist William Labov taught us, if there are variations in how to pronounce something within a language, it’s rarely the case that anyone uses only one variation always, and the other group only uses the alternate. And the social context can subtly affect which one is chosen, even below the conscious level of the speaker. So, New York City speakers from a working class neighborhood might use the classic ‘r’ dropping X percent of the time, say 65% (John Boyle can probably remember this exactly), while middle class folks might only ‘drop their [r]’ 30%, and upper class folks might only have it 5% of the time, just as an example. It always seemed to me since so many Otoe-Missouria had Ioway kin (and vice versa) that an absolute 100% consistency in using the alternate forms (like the inye vs. inge example here) would be very unlikely. So beyond the possible differences in the persons’ hearing and transcription, it might have been perfectly acceptable to pronounce the name both ways, at the same point in time. (In this part of SW Missouri, Sky, your last name would traditionally be said more like the desert animal, Camel ☺; we had dear neighbors who I knew only by hearing their names spoken, and was surprised to find out later that the spelling had not one but two “silent letters”). Then a new girl of the same surname came to school, and she pronounced it Cam-bell, (still the silent p), so I added that variation for her name, but that didn’t change the way I addressed the older folks at church.... Best, Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 3:00 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Found this in the next treaty (1825) while trying to figure out yet another name LOL. Waw-zob-e-ing-ge And once I saw it, I remembered seeing it before. Now I have a shift from "th" to "z" in a span of 8 years and it has me questioning if "ignet" was actually supposed to represent -inye or -inge. If the first one was in face -inye then here you have another shift to -inge. Presumably this same individual was there to pronounce his name for whoever was writing it down. And if so, he changed 1 (and maybe 2) part of his name. A number of scenarios come to mind for the change (perhaps another one of the signers pronounced it for him) but it would still be nice to get this sorted out :). Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:27 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Whoops - I meant Dhegiha there. Sorry all! Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:22 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Good point Sky - Of course, there could be lots of alternative words for many things that we just don’t have examples, so this is exciting. Names are always fascinating. I must be getting hunger this afternoon, because Wasabi is a Japanese restaurant in town here, and the thought of wonderful hot horseradish came to my mind when your Otoe word was on the screen… ☺ Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:12 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" That’s a very good point, Jill, and well taken. Yes, there is an equivalent name, at least in the Thatada clan, which is Wasabe-zhiⁿga. If the term Sky found is a borrowing, it shows that understanding between the two groups at the time was good enough to cause Dhegiha ‘s’ to shift forward to Otoe ‘th’, and for the Dhegiha ‘small’ term (zhiⁿga) to be replaced by Otoe iñe, as Sky has just noted. But I think either of those are quite possible and likely, so we might want more evidence from Otoe before we conclude that this ‘bear’ term was generally used in Otoe. Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:52 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Sky and Rory, Great posts - one thing to consider also is that it’s actually not an Otoe word per se. It’s possible for entire names to have been borrowed across tribes (or bestowed, think of the intertribal peace-making child adoption tradition of the Pipe Dance (Calumet in some soures), with the Beloved Child (it could be a girl or a boy) undergoing an elaborate ceremony. People might have multiple names (family kin name, clan name, later a name from an accomplishment, plus nicknames [‘uncle names’]. Is there a similar name in Dhegiha groups? Best, Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:43 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Sky, The wasabe term is not just Ponca; it’s Omaha, Kaw and (as wasape) Osage as well. I assume it’s common Dhegiha. It refers to the black bear, as opposed to the mąnto-equivalent term for ‘grizzly bear’. I’m sure you’re entirely right that the ‘Wathapay’ part of that name is an Otoe equivalent of Dhegiha *wasape. It looks like the ‘ignet’ must have been written by a Frenchman; it kind of threw me a little at first. :) Anyway, if the *wasape term was not known from Otoe before, that’s a great catch! So it looks like you have three terms for ‘bear’?? Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 1:50 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" I've had a name from an old Otoe treaty (1817) that has always puzzled me. The name is: Wathapayignet - the Small Bear There is no mųnje (bear/black bear) or mąnto (grizzly bear) terms to be found in there. The "small" part is easy enough to pull out of there (yignet = -inye). Then the thought struck me about the Ponca term for bear (wasabe) and how the Ponca "s" can sometimes be the Otoe "th" in cognate terms. This gives me "wathabe" as the term for bear. Now before I run with this, does anyone have anything to back this up? It certainly makes sense and the pieces fit. But I have never seen "wathabe" anywhere as an Otoe word for bear. But if I am right, this would give me: Wathabeinye - Small Bear If I am correct, then I'm thinking that this is an extremely old term. Anyone else come across this before? Sky -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com ­­ -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 11974 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: From Kathleen.Danker at SDSTATE.EDU Mon Apr 21 21:43:58 2014 From: Kathleen.Danker at SDSTATE.EDU (Danker, Kathleen) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2014 21:43:58 +0000 Subject: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" In-Reply-To: <975c97ced6454aff875d47b927664461@BLUPR04MB819.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Jill, My grandparents lived in Campbell, Nebraska, pronounced Camel. I have always thought the pronunciation had something to do with the French-Canadian settlers in the area. K.D. Danker From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 1:18 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Interesting! Remember that as people like the American dialectologist William Labov taught us, if there are variations in how to pronounce something within a language, it’s rarely the case that anyone uses only one variation always, and the other group only uses the alternate. And the social context can subtly affect which one is chosen, even below the conscious level of the speaker. So, New York City speakers from a working class neighborhood might use the classic ‘r’ dropping X percent of the time, say 65% (John Boyle can probably remember this exactly), while middle class folks might only ‘drop their [r]’ 30%, and upper class folks might only have it 5% of the time, just as an example. It always seemed to me since so many Otoe-Missouria had Ioway kin (and vice versa) that an absolute 100% consistency in using the alternate forms (like the inye vs. inge example here) would be very unlikely. So beyond the possible differences in the persons’ hearing and transcription, it might have been perfectly acceptable to pronounce the name both ways, at the same point in time. (In this part of SW Missouri, Sky, your last name would traditionally be said more like the desert animal, Camel ☺; we had dear neighbors who I knew only by hearing their names spoken, and was surprised to find out later that the spelling had not one but two “silent letters”). Then a new girl of the same surname came to school, and she pronounced it Cam-bell, (still the silent p), so I added that variation for her name, but that didn’t change the way I addressed the older folks at church.... Best, Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 3:00 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Found this in the next treaty (1825) while trying to figure out yet another name LOL. Waw-zob-e-ing-ge And once I saw it, I remembered seeing it before. Now I have a shift from "th" to "z" in a span of 8 years and it has me questioning if "ignet" was actually supposed to represent -inye or -inge. If the first one was in face -inye then here you have another shift to -inge. Presumably this same individual was there to pronounce his name for whoever was writing it down. And if so, he changed 1 (and maybe 2) part of his name. A number of scenarios come to mind for the change (perhaps another one of the signers pronounced it for him) but it would still be nice to get this sorted out :). Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:27 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Whoops - I meant Dhegiha there. Sorry all! Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:22 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Good point Sky - Of course, there could be lots of alternative words for many things that we just don’t have examples, so this is exciting. Names are always fascinating. I must be getting hunger this afternoon, because Wasabi is a Japanese restaurant in town here, and the thought of wonderful hot horseradish came to my mind when your Otoe word was on the screen… ☺ Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:12 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" That’s a very good point, Jill, and well taken. Yes, there is an equivalent name, at least in the Thatada clan, which is Wasabe-zhiⁿga. If the term Sky found is a borrowing, it shows that understanding between the two groups at the time was good enough to cause Dhegiha ‘s’ to shift forward to Otoe ‘th’, and for the Dhegiha ‘small’ term (zhiⁿga) to be replaced by Otoe iñe, as Sky has just noted. But I think either of those are quite possible and likely, so we might want more evidence from Otoe before we conclude that this ‘bear’ term was generally used in Otoe. Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:52 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Sky and Rory, Great posts - one thing to consider also is that it’s actually not an Otoe word per se. It’s possible for entire names to have been borrowed across tribes (or bestowed, think of the intertribal peace-making child adoption tradition of the Pipe Dance (Calumet in some soures), with the Beloved Child (it could be a girl or a boy) undergoing an elaborate ceremony. People might have multiple names (family kin name, clan name, later a name from an accomplishment, plus nicknames [‘uncle names’]. Is there a similar name in Dhegiha groups? Best, Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:43 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Sky, The wasabe term is not just Ponca; it’s Omaha, Kaw and (as wasape) Osage as well. I assume it’s common Dhegiha. It refers to the black bear, as opposed to the mąnto-equivalent term for ‘grizzly bear’. I’m sure you’re entirely right that the ‘Wathapay’ part of that name is an Otoe equivalent of Dhegiha *wasape. It looks like the ‘ignet’ must have been written by a Frenchman; it kind of threw me a little at first. :) Anyway, if the *wasape term was not known from Otoe before, that’s a great catch! So it looks like you have three terms for ‘bear’?? Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 1:50 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" I've had a name from an old Otoe treaty (1817) that has always puzzled me. The name is: Wathapayignet - the Small Bear There is no mųnje (bear/black bear) or mąnto (grizzly bear) terms to be found in there. The "small" part is easy enough to pull out of there (yignet = -inye). Then the thought struck me about the Ponca term for bear (wasabe) and how the Ponca "s" can sometimes be the Otoe "th" in cognate terms. This gives me "wathabe" as the term for bear. Now before I run with this, does anyone have anything to back this up? It certainly makes sense and the pieces fit. But I have never seen "wathabe" anywhere as an Otoe word for bear. But if I am right, this would give me: Wathabeinye - Small Bear If I am correct, then I'm thinking that this is an extremely old term. Anyone else come across this before? Sky -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Tue Apr 22 01:46:40 2014 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 01:46:40 +0000 Subject: Aho! (IO -ka in Imperatives) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sky, I was just reading through a text I found on the Ioway-Otoe language web site, under “Personal Narratives” (Worage), called Hinkuni, or “Grandmother”, by Julia Small, collected originally by Gordon Marsh in 1936 and retranscribed and retranslated by Jimm Goodtracks. In it, I found the following quoted sentence: “Járe éwa čh^émi hñe ga.” It is translated as “This is the one (that’s) surely to kill me.” (Said by a woman who is wandering around lost, upon meeting a grizzly bear) If I am following this correctly, that glosses as: Járe – This one éwa – that is the one who čh^émi – kill me (causative form?) hñe – potential/future marker ga – (??) Is this the “surely” part? Does that glossing seem correct to you? And if so, does the ga at the end have anything to do with the -ka element you’ve been discussing? Thanks, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of John Koontz Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 8:28 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: Aho! (IO -ka in Imperatives) I think the closing quote mark would be glottalization. It should be compared with things that have glottal k, t, or p. Note that Dorsey uses the same opening quotation mark for glottalization of fricative and aspiration with stops (when he marks that). The closing quotation mark is ejective with stops. It's very confusing. I forget which option he uses with glottal stop alone. He calls ejectives "exploded." ________________________________ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 08:11:59 -0500 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Subject: Re: Aho! (IO -ka in Imperatives) To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu I just remembered that I needed to respond to this email so I apologize for the delay! Outlook says I replied but I don't remember doing so...perhaps I started it but had to stop. For Dorsey, the ' character that I used actually looks like a ʾ (not sure if you can see that...think of a superscripted reversed "c"). Does that help? Last week I had someone come to my office and they were knowledgeable enough to have me bring this up to them. They looked at it and recognized it but couldn't immediately remember the details on it. They said they'd think on it and I expect to follow up with them soon. Your mention of kare/gare perhaps being a male imperative is interesting. I mentioned in another email how this time period (1830-40s) seems to show a shift away from some of the Ponca/Omaha morphemes to today's versions. Perhaps, as you suggested, this could be another. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of John Koontz Sent: Thursday, March 6, 2014 4:16 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! (IO -ka in Imperatives) In k'a what is '? If it is aspiration (opening quote) this sounds a little like the ubiquitous the (th = aspirate) in OP. It actually alternates with the inanimate articles (the ~ khe ~ dhaN ~ ge) and is associated with something like pastness. The alternants indicate something about the "shape" of the action, as they indicate the shape of the noun when they are inanimate articles. (And khe 'long, lying' occurs with animate things like snakes.) I am pretty sure that the sense of these forms in OP is not pastness per se but 'deducibility'. As a set they indicate that the action is deduced to have occurred (in the shape indicated). This contrasts with the ama particle that occurs with reported things (and conditions any preceding plural-proximate marker to be bi instead of I). The "proximate" term is one I have borrowed from Algonquian usage and is not very suitable. The general idea is that the action can be observed to occur and takes place under the independent volition of the third person singular subject. And this is (for some reason) marked with a plural marker on the third person subject. Only Dhegiha has this pattern. But it keeps coming up because I need to explain that a=i is 'he (proximate) said' in most places, even though it looks like 'they said'. There is a non-proximate, or obviative e 'he said', but it is vanishingly rare in texts. The a=i is also 'they said', of course. (The IO analogs of e and a=i are e and a=wi.) We have to be a little careful with associating ga's. Siouan languages are full of forms that look the same and mean something different. In OP ga is the masculine imperative, the "yonder" demonstrative, and the "by striking" instrumental besides the places where it turns up superficially because gi has contracted with a following a. There's also places where aN 'we' is followed by the locative prefix a- 'on' producing aNga-. From your examples I think you are safe in associating the cases of kare where there is an imperative meaning. If you have kare alternating indeterminately with re and in more modern examples completely replaced by re, maybe you just have a case of a historical change in usage observed in progress? I can think of all kinds of things that are somewhat irregular in OP and Da because they are changing and are controlled by the formulas the speaker has heard various others use, by their sense of style as it applies in a specific utterance, and so on. Because there is an male imperative particle ga in OP it is worth wondering if =ka=re originally marked male imperatives in IO. If it works at all like OP (where the female imperative is =a), I would expect re alone to be the female imperative and to condition the a-grade of preceding ablauting e. In other words, the female imperative would be =a=re, and that initial a would replace any preceding e. It might occasionally show up as an extra element if the preceding vowel wasn't e. So in OP =a=di 'in' changes preceding e to a, ppahe ~ ppahadi, and sometimes the a appears in forms like ppamu ~ ppamuadi, tti ~ ttiadi, or sometimes you just get =di and sometimes a preceding e doesn't change either. These last, simpler patterns are, of course, the modern ones. It looks like Whitman says the imperative does condition e > a. So, for what it's worth, that pattern is consistent. Conceivably the IO imperative in the early 1800 was something like the OP one, but with the additional element =re following it. The OP imperative can be extended (for male speakers anyway) by =hau, which is essentially the declarative. Sort of like "yep!" at the end of a sentence, maybe. And sort of like the =re in IO, except that the =re is always there are ends up surviving as the only element visible. As far as female speech forms replacing male speech forms, this is actually something that can happen. Or the reverse. And apart from apparently straight up changes like that, it is also possible that the difference between the two forms was actually something like a strong suggestion (=ka=re) vs. a milder, politer one (=a=re) and men are more culturally enabled to make strong suggestions. However, fashions in these things change continually. In general the sentence final particles are highly unstable in Siouan languages, and even closely related languages (or the same language at different periods) have different systems. It was suggested that ka might be 'yon'. We could even guess that ka (or ga) in an imperative might actually be historically the ga demonstrative, used as an imperative particle. Sort of "eat, that, do it!" I'm kind of reminded of the use of ese in Chicano Spanish, though I think that is more of a male declarative. I've never really figured it out! ________________________________ Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 22:30:11 -0600 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Aho! To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Yes, "naha" is an article going along the lines of "the", "that which", "the one who", etc. You've given me a lot to think about and a lot of terminology that I'll have to wrap my head around since I'm not familiar with it. My assistants and I spent over 3 hours today tracking down all the instances of Merrill and Hamilton's use of this -ga/-ka and mapped them to a grid on a large dry-erase board in an effort to try to find some kind of common element among all of them. Unfortunately we had no luck. We tried to think of everything we could think of when it came to those verbs. Were they transitive or intransitive? Animate or inanimate objects? Singular or plural? Was the object "known" to the speaker (meaning was the speaker referring to something specific...sort of along the lines of the idea of "that" I mentioned earlier)? Of course we know that we aren't looking for every possible criteria since there are many we don't know about (like some of the ideas you mentioned). I've mentioned several of our theories such as "that", "now", "in like manner", etc. But while we were plugging away I was perusing Dorsey's vocabulary slips and found this: k'a (masc) (adverb) - of action in past time, not continuing into the present And the example he gives is: Swagaxe k'a - you did write then (but you do not write now) So in this context, I wonder if perhaps it could be along the lines of (to use an example from before) "Look at the snake" perhaps with the idea that you were looking at the snake before but aren't now and I want you to do so again. This may not be correct though since Dorsey mentions "see also" and has the endings "ke", "ki", etc. so this may represent the end of a statement and not simply an adverb that can be used where needed. Dorsey also has a rather enigmatic term "kare" (or perhaps "k'are") where he mentions "It seems to imply that the thought or desire was not gratified" but he doesn't just list this term with that explanation but rather just uses it with examples such as: Ji kare hįrawi - we thought that he would have come hither (but he did not come) I'm noting that this is after the verb that they want to attach this to which matches the placement of the enigmatic -ga/-ka. So along these lines, perhaps it could be "Look at the snake" with the idea of I wanted you to look at the snake but you didn't so I am requesting/commanding again since you didn't do it before. Yet another couple theories to add to this :). Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of John Koontz Sent: Wednesday, March 5, 2014 9:00 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Aho! I would guess this pair contrasts something analogous to Omaha-Ponca 'to say' vs. 'to say to'. The 'say' stems are highly irregular in Omaha-Ponca like most Siouan, but underlyingly they are something like e=...he vs. e=gi=...he. So the first persons are ehe 'I said it' (from something like Proto-Dhegiha *e=phe) vs. egiphe 'I said (it) to him'. The third persons are a=i 'they said' vs. ega=i 'they said to him'. I've reconstructed the plural from memory of the logic of the system. What I remember is the unpluralized from ege (e=g(i)...(h)e). The gi element is the dative marker of course and the weird thing about (OP) 'say' is that that comes *before* the pronoun. When gi is followed by the root (h)e it contracts with it. I'm not sure the root is really -he in the third person. The first and second persons are clearly built on e=(gi)=...he, but the inclusive is usually from another verb entirely, and the third person behaves like e by itself in the simple stem and e=g(i)=...e in the dative. The initial e= is presumably an incorporated e 'the aforesaid'. And, of course, this is the quoting verb that follows a quotation. There's a form with initial ga 'yonder' that is used preceding a quotation. The third person is essentially always seen as a=(nothing) or a=i or a=bi with the plural-proximate marker following e and conditioning the a-grade of the stem. (So you almost never get a singular looking form, and if you did it would be just e, and so hard to know from a demonstrative e.) The =(nothing) form of the plural-proximate is current now when no other particle follows. Dorsey always has a=i or a=bi (the latter when the quotation is itself quoted in some way). Anyway, making allowances, I hope, for my poor grasp of IO, I make these e=wa-a naha 'the one who says something' vs. e=wa-g(i)-a naha 'the one who says (something) to someone' I hope I correctly remember naha as an article of some sort. If not ... When you add a dative to something then the object is the dative object and the "direct object" sort of falls out of the agreement pattern. Sometimes it hangs around in the sentence as a noun (or quotation) without governing anything in the verb. What the relationalists called a chomeur. ________________________________ I may have found a clue for "ka." Dorsey has the term: e-wa-na-ha - the speaker; the one speaking Then he has the term: e wa-ka-na-ha - the one who is meant; the person addressed I'm not sure how (or even if) this is related to the "ka" I am asking about but I'm trying to look at it in different ways to see if it fits somehow. Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Tue Apr 22 02:16:28 2014 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm Goodtracks) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2014 21:16:28 -0500 Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" In-Reply-To: <80b4d85a3a674062b4880b912829b217@DM2PR08MB525.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: I am in agreement with all said. May I add two things. Dorsey’s “ñ” in his text is equal to the “ng” as in “sing.” So in lieu of he Ioway “-iñe,” it would be the Otoe/Missouria “-inge.” Also, IOM does have a cognate to Omaha “sebe” which is “séwe” (brown). I have never known it to cover the meaning of “shawdowed,” as Rory says exists in Omaha. From: Rory Larson Sent: Monday, April 21, 2014 2:12 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Ø What I also find interesting, regardless of which of the above scenarios is correct for this term, is why were two portions of this word “shifted” to an Otoe-Missouria form (the s to a th and zhinga to –inye) and not a potential third? Why didn’t the “b (p)” turn into a “w” as seen in other cognates? That’s a very good observation, and I think it probably tells us that the word is a loan from Dhegiha, as Jill suggested, not a native Otoe-Missouria form. They would have understood the meaning well enough to change the ‘small’ word to their own term for “small”. The shift from /s/ to dental voiceless fricative “th” may have happened after the name was adopted, or else “th” may still have been the closest thing to /s/ they had when they adopted it. The main term is apparently analyzable in Dhegiha as wa-sabe, “the Black One”, based on sabe, meaning ‘black’. But in Chiwere, the word for ‘black’ seems to be thewe, which is presumably cognate to Dhegiha sebe, meaning ‘shadowed’. Going off Jimm’s Baxoje Dictionary, it looks like thewe is the only word for ‘black’ in that language, with no equivalent for Dhegiha sabe. So the term may not even be analyzable in Chiwere. That would mean that they pulled it in as a whole unanalyzed unit, complete with the foreign pronunciation. It would be like one of us, being gifted with the name from Omaha relatives, calling ourselves to other English speakers, “Little Wasabe” rather than “Little Blackbear”. ‘Little’ might have been a standard naming word in Otoe-Missouria that no one cared to mess with, but perhaps as a foreign term Wasabe carried a cachet that might have been lacking if they had translated it into the native Otoe-Missouria word for ‘black bear’. Incidentally, I believe that Comanche also adopted the wasabe term for ‘black bear’ from Dhegiha. Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky Sent: Monday, April 21, 2014 11:50 AM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" I found this while going through some of Dorsey’s names: Wa-ça-́pe yiñ-́e, Tciwere notation of the Cegiha, Wasabe jiñga, Young Black bear. See Mŭⁿtcinye. He shows this as an Otoe-Missouria Bear Clan name and there isn’t a mention of this individual belonging to another tribe. This list was made about 60+ years after the same name on the 1817 treaty. Could this be the same guy? Possible…especially since he often lists deceased individuals (no mention of that here though). I’d find it unlikely (but not impossible) that the same individual was still alive so I’m thinking that either he was given the name by someone, there was another individual living at that time with the same name, or perhaps he even got it off of the 1817 treaty and just added it to his list. What I find interesting is the “Tciwere notation of…” statement. I’m trying to figure out if he is trying to indicate that this name is an Otoe-Missouria cognate of the Dhegiha term (as in it was perhaps used regularly) or if it was a one-time thing and this was simply an Otoe-ization of Wasabe Zhinga. Him listing it as a Bear Clan name has me slightly leaning toward the former. What I also find interesting, regardless of which of the above scenarios is correct for this term, is why were two portions of this word “shifted” to an Otoe-Missouria form (the s to a th and zhinga to –inye) and not a potential third? Why didn’t the “b (p)” turn into a “w” as seen in other cognates? And naturally I didn’t stumble upon this information looking for this specific name…I was looking for something else!! Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 6:02 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Importance: Low Jimm, Very true...I've also seen a handful of names referring to other tribes (Ioway, Pawnee, Pottawatomie, Omaha, etc.). It makes me curious about if this person were from another tribe (at least in part), what the scenario was that allowed them to inherit and/or rise through the ranks to become someone important enough to sign a treaty. Jill, I know what you mean. I've considered the possibility of using variations. I know we only met briefly at Breath of Life last year so I don't know how much of my West Virginia accent/slang came out for you to hear but I do know that it does emerge from time to time (much to my wife's amusement when I say something like "I ain't eat yet" :) ). It's been years since I've lived there but those remnants still bubble to the surface. I think people are often flabbergasted when they find out that I work with languages LOL. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 1:18 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Interesting! Remember that as people like the American dialectologist William Labov taught us, if there are variations in how to pronounce something within a language, it’s rarely the case that anyone uses only one variation always, and the other group only uses the alternate. And the social context can subtly affect which one is chosen, even below the conscious level of the speaker. So, New York City speakers from a working class neighborhood might use the classic ‘r’ dropping X percent of the time, say 65% (John Boyle can probably remember this exactly), while middle class folks might only ‘drop their [r]’ 30%, and upper class folks might only have it 5% of the time, just as an example. It always seemed to me since so many Otoe-Missouria had Ioway kin (and vice versa) that an absolute 100% consistency in using the alternate forms (like the inye vs. inge example here) would be very unlikely. So beyond the possible differences in the persons’ hearing and transcription, it might have been perfectly acceptable to pronounce the name both ways, at the same point in time. (In this part of SW Missouri, Sky, your last name would traditionally be said more like the desert animal, Camel J; we had dear neighbors who I knew only by hearing their names spoken, and was surprised to find out later that the spelling had not one but two “silent letters”). Then a new girl of the same surname came to school, and she pronounced it Cam-bell, (still the silent p), so I added that variation for her name, but that didn’t change the way I addressed the older folks at church.... Best, Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 3:00 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Found this in the next treaty (1825) while trying to figure out yet another name LOL. Waw-zob-e-ing-ge And once I saw it, I remembered seeing it before. Now I have a shift from "th" to "z" in a span of 8 years and it has me questioning if "ignet" was actually supposed to represent -inye or -inge. If the first one was in face -inye then here you have another shift to -inge. Presumably this same individual was there to pronounce his name for whoever was writing it down. And if so, he changed 1 (and maybe 2) part of his name. A number of scenarios come to mind for the change (perhaps another one of the signers pronounced it for him) but it would still be nice to get this sorted out :). Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:27 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Whoops - I meant Dhegiha there. Sorry all! Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:22 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Good point Sky - Of course, there could be lots of alternative words for many things that we just don’t have examples, so this is exciting. Names are always fascinating. I must be getting hunger this afternoon, because Wasabi is a Japanese restaurant in town here, and the thought of wonderful hot horseradish came to my mind when your Otoe word was on the screen… J Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:12 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" That’s a very good point, Jill, and well taken. Yes, there is an equivalent name, at least in the Thatada clan, which is Wasabe-zhiⁿga. If the term Sky found is a borrowing, it shows that understanding between the two groups at the time was good enough to cause Dhegiha ‘s’ to shift forward to Otoe ‘th’, and for the Dhegiha ‘small’ term (zhiⁿga) to be replaced by Otoe iñe, as Sky has just noted. But I think either of those are quite possible and likely, so we might want more evidence from Otoe before we conclude that this ‘bear’ term was generally used in Otoe. Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:52 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Sky and Rory, Great posts - one thing to consider also is that it’s actually not an Otoe word per se. It’s possible for entire names to have been borrowed across tribes (or bestowed, think of the intertribal peace-making child adoption tradition of the Pipe Dance (Calumet in some soures), with the Beloved Child (it could be a girl or a boy) undergoing an elaborate ceremony. People might have multiple names (family kin name, clan name, later a name from an accomplishment, plus nicknames [‘uncle names’]. Is there a similar name in Dhegiha groups? Best, Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:43 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Sky, The wasabe term is not just Ponca; it’s Omaha, Kaw and (as wasape) Osage as well. I assume it’s common Dhegiha. It refers to the black bear, as opposed to the mąnto-equivalent term for ‘grizzly bear’. I’m sure you’re entirely right that the ‘Wathapay’ part of that name is an Otoe equivalent of Dhegiha *wasape. It looks like the ‘ignet’ must have been written by a Frenchman; it kind of threw me a little at first. :) Anyway, if the *wasape term was not known from Otoe before, that’s a great catch! So it looks like you have three terms for ‘bear’?? Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 1:50 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" I've had a name from an old Otoe treaty (1817) that has always puzzled me. The name is: Wathapayignet - the Small Bear There is no mųnje (bear/black bear) or mąnto (grizzly bear) terms to be found in there. The "small" part is easy enough to pull out of there (yignet = -inye). Then the thought struck me about the Ponca term for bear (wasabe) and how the Ponca "s" can sometimes be the Otoe "th" in cognate terms. This gives me "wathabe" as the term for bear. Now before I run with this, does anyone have anything to back this up? It certainly makes sense and the pieces fit. But I have never seen "wathabe" anywhere as an Otoe word for bear. But if I am right, this would give me: Wathabeinye - Small Bear If I am correct, then I'm thinking that this is an extremely old term. Anyone else come across this before? Sky -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com ­­ -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 11974 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG Tue Apr 22 14:01:11 2014 From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 09:01:11 -0500 Subject: Aho! (IO -ka in Imperatives) In-Reply-To: <78aeeae7cadc4b26816ddf3f9dbfc05a@DM2PR08MB525.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: I’m not sure what that “ga” is doing there. Dorsey something similar to that but he describes it as a masculine term that means “adv. of action in past time, not continuing into the present.” However I do have something else which says that “ga” is a female exclamation saying “Here it is” or “Take it.” The use of it isn’t in a sentence but just a standalone “Ga!” (male version being “Go!”). So at this point I don’t know if this can be placed at the end of a sentence to exclaim something along the lines of “here it is.” It would sure seem to fit this scenario though. Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Monday, April 21, 2014 8:47 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! (IO -ka in Imperatives) Sky, I was just reading through a text I found on the Ioway-Otoe language web site, under “Personal Narratives” (Worage), called Hinkuni, or “Grandmother”, by Julia Small, collected originally by Gordon Marsh in 1936 and retranscribed and retranslated by Jimm Goodtracks. In it, I found the following quoted sentence: “Járe éwa čh^émi hñe ga.” It is translated as “This is the one (that’s) surely to kill me.” (Said by a woman who is wandering around lost, upon meeting a grizzly bear) If I am following this correctly, that glosses as: Járe – This one éwa – that is the one who čh^émi – kill me (causative form?) hñe – potential/future marker ga – (??) Is this the “surely” part? Does that glossing seem correct to you? And if so, does the ga at the end have anything to do with the -ka element you’ve been discussing? Thanks, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of John Koontz Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 8:28 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: Aho! (IO -ka in Imperatives) I think the closing quote mark would be glottalization. It should be compared with things that have glottal k, t, or p. Note that Dorsey uses the same opening quotation mark for glottalization of fricative and aspiration with stops (when he marks that). The closing quotation mark is ejective with stops. It's very confusing. I forget which option he uses with glottal stop alone. He calls ejectives "exploded." ________________________________ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 08:11:59 -0500 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Subject: Re: Aho! (IO -ka in Imperatives) To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu I just remembered that I needed to respond to this email so I apologize for the delay! Outlook says I replied but I don't remember doing so...perhaps I started it but had to stop. For Dorsey, the ' character that I used actually looks like a ʾ (not sure if you can see that...think of a superscripted reversed "c"). Does that help? Last week I had someone come to my office and they were knowledgeable enough to have me bring this up to them. They looked at it and recognized it but couldn't immediately remember the details on it. They said they'd think on it and I expect to follow up with them soon. Your mention of kare/gare perhaps being a male imperative is interesting. I mentioned in another email how this time period (1830-40s) seems to show a shift away from some of the Ponca/Omaha morphemes to today's versions. Perhaps, as you suggested, this could be another. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of John Koontz Sent: Thursday, March 6, 2014 4:16 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! (IO -ka in Imperatives) In k'a what is '? If it is aspiration (opening quote) this sounds a little like the ubiquitous the (th = aspirate) in OP. It actually alternates with the inanimate articles (the ~ khe ~ dhaN ~ ge) and is associated with something like pastness. The alternants indicate something about the "shape" of the action, as they indicate the shape of the noun when they are inanimate articles. (And khe 'long, lying' occurs with animate things like snakes.) I am pretty sure that the sense of these forms in OP is not pastness per se but 'deducibility'. As a set they indicate that the action is deduced to have occurred (in the shape indicated). This contrasts with the ama particle that occurs with reported things (and conditions any preceding plural-proximate marker to be bi instead of I). The "proximate" term is one I have borrowed from Algonquian usage and is not very suitable. The general idea is that the action can be observed to occur and takes place under the independent volition of the third person singular subject. And this is (for some reason) marked with a plural marker on the third person subject. Only Dhegiha has this pattern. But it keeps coming up because I need to explain that a=i is 'he (proximate) said' in most places, even though it looks like 'they said'. There is a non-proximate, or obviative e 'he said', but it is vanishingly rare in texts. The a=i is also 'they said', of course. (The IO analogs of e and a=i are e and a=wi.) We have to be a little careful with associating ga's. Siouan languages are full of forms that look the same and mean something different. In OP ga is the masculine imperative, the "yonder" demonstrative, and the "by striking" instrumental besides the places where it turns up superficially because gi has contracted with a following a. There's also places where aN 'we' is followed by the locative prefix a- 'on' producing aNga-. From your examples I think you are safe in associating the cases of kare where there is an imperative meaning. If you have kare alternating indeterminately with re and in more modern examples completely replaced by re, maybe you just have a case of a historical change in usage observed in progress? I can think of all kinds of things that are somewhat irregular in OP and Da because they are changing and are controlled by the formulas the speaker has heard various others use, by their sense of style as it applies in a specific utterance, and so on. Because there is an male imperative particle ga in OP it is worth wondering if =ka=re originally marked male imperatives in IO. If it works at all like OP (where the female imperative is =a), I would expect re alone to be the female imperative and to condition the a-grade of preceding ablauting e. In other words, the female imperative would be =a=re, and that initial a would replace any preceding e. It might occasionally show up as an extra element if the preceding vowel wasn't e. So in OP =a=di 'in' changes preceding e to a, ppahe ~ ppahadi, and sometimes the a appears in forms like ppamu ~ ppamuadi, tti ~ ttiadi, or sometimes you just get =di and sometimes a preceding e doesn't change either. These last, simpler patterns are, of course, the modern ones. It looks like Whitman says the imperative does condition e > a. So, for what it's worth, that pattern is consistent. Conceivably the IO imperative in the early 1800 was something like the OP one, but with the additional element =re following it. The OP imperative can be extended (for male speakers anyway) by =hau, which is essentially the declarative. Sort of like "yep!" at the end of a sentence, maybe. And sort of like the =re in IO, except that the =re is always there are ends up surviving as the only element visible. As far as female speech forms replacing male speech forms, this is actually something that can happen. Or the reverse. And apart from apparently straight up changes like that, it is also possible that the difference between the two forms was actually something like a strong suggestion (=ka=re) vs. a milder, politer one (=a=re) and men are more culturally enabled to make strong suggestions. However, fashions in these things change continually. In general the sentence final particles are highly unstable in Siouan languages, and even closely related languages (or the same language at different periods) have different systems. It was suggested that ka might be 'yon'. We could even guess that ka (or ga) in an imperative might actually be historically the ga demonstrative, used as an imperative particle. Sort of "eat, that, do it!" I'm kind of reminded of the use of ese in Chicano Spanish, though I think that is more of a male declarative. I've never really figured it out! ________________________________ Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 22:30:11 -0600 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Aho! To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Yes, "naha" is an article going along the lines of "the", "that which", "the one who", etc. You've given me a lot to think about and a lot of terminology that I'll have to wrap my head around since I'm not familiar with it. My assistants and I spent over 3 hours today tracking down all the instances of Merrill and Hamilton's use of this -ga/-ka and mapped them to a grid on a large dry-erase board in an effort to try to find some kind of common element among all of them. Unfortunately we had no luck. We tried to think of everything we could think of when it came to those verbs. Were they transitive or intransitive? Animate or inanimate objects? Singular or plural? Was the object "known" to the speaker (meaning was the speaker referring to something specific...sort of along the lines of the idea of "that" I mentioned earlier)? Of course we know that we aren't looking for every possible criteria since there are many we don't know about (like some of the ideas you mentioned). I've mentioned several of our theories such as "that", "now", "in like manner", etc. But while we were plugging away I was perusing Dorsey's vocabulary slips and found this: k'a (masc) (adverb) - of action in past time, not continuing into the present And the example he gives is: Swagaxe k'a - you did write then (but you do not write now) So in this context, I wonder if perhaps it could be along the lines of (to use an example from before) "Look at the snake" perhaps with the idea that you were looking at the snake before but aren't now and I want you to do so again. This may not be correct though since Dorsey mentions "see also" and has the endings "ke", "ki", etc. so this may represent the end of a statement and not simply an adverb that can be used where needed. Dorsey also has a rather enigmatic term "kare" (or perhaps "k'are") where he mentions "It seems to imply that the thought or desire was not gratified" but he doesn't just list this term with that explanation but rather just uses it with examples such as: Ji kare hįrawi - we thought that he would have come hither (but he did not come) I'm noting that this is after the verb that they want to attach this to which matches the placement of the enigmatic -ga/-ka. So along these lines, perhaps it could be "Look at the snake" with the idea of I wanted you to look at the snake but you didn't so I am requesting/commanding again since you didn't do it before. Yet another couple theories to add to this :). Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of John Koontz Sent: Wednesday, March 5, 2014 9:00 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Aho! I would guess this pair contrasts something analogous to Omaha-Ponca 'to say' vs. 'to say to'. The 'say' stems are highly irregular in Omaha-Ponca like most Siouan, but underlyingly they are something like e=...he vs. e=gi=...he. So the first persons are ehe 'I said it' (from something like Proto-Dhegiha *e=phe) vs. egiphe 'I said (it) to him'. The third persons are a=i 'they said' vs. ega=i 'they said to him'. I've reconstructed the plural from memory of the logic of the system. What I remember is the unpluralized from ege (e=g(i)...(h)e). The gi element is the dative marker of course and the weird thing about (OP) 'say' is that that comes *before* the pronoun. When gi is followed by the root (h)e it contracts with it. I'm not sure the root is really -he in the third person. The first and second persons are clearly built on e=(gi)=...he, but the inclusive is usually from another verb entirely, and the third person behaves like e by itself in the simple stem and e=g(i)=...e in the dative. The initial e= is presumably an incorporated e 'the aforesaid'. And, of course, this is the quoting verb that follows a quotation. There's a form with initial ga 'yonder' that is used preceding a quotation. The third person is essentially always seen as a=(nothing) or a=i or a=bi with the plural-proximate marker following e and conditioning the a-grade of the stem. (So you almost never get a singular looking form, and if you did it would be just e, and so hard to know from a demonstrative e.) The =(nothing) form of the plural-proximate is current now when no other particle follows. Dorsey always has a=i or a=bi (the latter when the quotation is itself quoted in some way). Anyway, making allowances, I hope, for my poor grasp of IO, I make these e=wa-a naha 'the one who says something' vs. e=wa-g(i)-a naha 'the one who says (something) to someone' I hope I correctly remember naha as an article of some sort. If not ... When you add a dative to something then the object is the dative object and the "direct object" sort of falls out of the agreement pattern. Sometimes it hangs around in the sentence as a noun (or quotation) without governing anything in the verb. What the relationalists called a chomeur. ________________________________ I may have found a clue for "ka." Dorsey has the term: e-wa-na-ha - the speaker; the one speaking Then he has the term: e wa-ka-na-ha - the one who is meant; the person addressed I'm not sure how (or even if) this is related to the "ka" I am asking about but I'm trying to look at it in different ways to see if it fits somehow. Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Tue Apr 22 16:54:40 2014 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 16:54:40 +0000 Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" In-Reply-To: <17A5BE697FAA4451BDC7A4EFCF54C129@AsusLaptop> Message-ID: Jimm, is that “séwe” or “šéwe”? I looked it up in your dictionary, and found it under “šéwe”. Or is there no difference between /s/ and /š/ in IOM? From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Monday, April 21, 2014 9:16 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" I am in agreement with all said. May I add two things. Dorsey’s “ñ” in his text is equal to the “ng” as in “sing.” So in lieu of he Ioway “-iñe,” it would be the Otoe/Missouria “-inge.” Also, IOM does have a cognate to Omaha “sebe” which is “séwe” (brown). I have never known it to cover the meaning of “shawdowed,” as Rory says exists in Omaha. From: Rory Larson Sent: Monday, April 21, 2014 2:12 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Ø What I also find interesting, regardless of which of the above scenarios is correct for this term, is why were two portions of this word “shifted” to an Otoe-Missouria form (the s to a th and zhinga to –inye) and not a potential third? Why didn’t the “b (p)” turn into a “w” as seen in other cognates? That’s a very good observation, and I think it probably tells us that the word is a loan from Dhegiha, as Jill suggested, not a native Otoe-Missouria form. They would have understood the meaning well enough to change the ‘small’ word to their own term for “small”. The shift from /s/ to dental voiceless fricative “th” may have happened after the name was adopted, or else “th” may still have been the closest thing to /s/ they had when they adopted it. The main term is apparently analyzable in Dhegiha as wa-sabe, “the Black One”, based on sabe, meaning ‘black’. But in Chiwere, the word for ‘black’ seems to be thewe, which is presumably cognate to Dhegiha sebe, meaning ‘shadowed’. Going off Jimm’s Baxoje Dictionary, it looks like thewe is the only word for ‘black’ in that language, with no equivalent for Dhegiha sabe. So the term may not even be analyzable in Chiwere. That would mean that they pulled it in as a whole unanalyzed unit, complete with the foreign pronunciation. It would be like one of us, being gifted with the name from Omaha relatives, calling ourselves to other English speakers, “Little Wasabe” rather than “Little Blackbear”. ‘Little’ might have been a standard naming word in Otoe-Missouria that no one cared to mess with, but perhaps as a foreign term Wasabe carried a cachet that might have been lacking if they had translated it into the native Otoe-Missouria word for ‘black bear’. Incidentally, I believe that Comanche also adopted the wasabe term for ‘black bear’ from Dhegiha. Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky Sent: Monday, April 21, 2014 11:50 AM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" I found this while going through some of Dorsey’s names: Wa-ça-́pe yiñ-́e, Tciwere notation of the Cegiha, Wasabe jiñga, Young Black bear. See Mŭⁿtcinye. He shows this as an Otoe-Missouria Bear Clan name and there isn’t a mention of this individual belonging to another tribe. This list was made about 60+ years after the same name on the 1817 treaty. Could this be the same guy? Possible…especially since he often lists deceased individuals (no mention of that here though). I’d find it unlikely (but not impossible) that the same individual was still alive so I’m thinking that either he was given the name by someone, there was another individual living at that time with the same name, or perhaps he even got it off of the 1817 treaty and just added it to his list. What I find interesting is the “Tciwere notation of…” statement. I’m trying to figure out if he is trying to indicate that this name is an Otoe-Missouria cognate of the Dhegiha term (as in it was perhaps used regularly) or if it was a one-time thing and this was simply an Otoe-ization of Wasabe Zhinga. Him listing it as a Bear Clan name has me slightly leaning toward the former. What I also find interesting, regardless of which of the above scenarios is correct for this term, is why were two portions of this word “shifted” to an Otoe-Missouria form (the s to a th and zhinga to –inye) and not a potential third? Why didn’t the “b (p)” turn into a “w” as seen in other cognates? And naturally I didn’t stumble upon this information looking for this specific name…I was looking for something else!! [Wathabeinye.jpg] Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 6:02 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Importance: Low Jimm, Very true...I've also seen a handful of names referring to other tribes (Ioway, Pawnee, Pottawatomie, Omaha, etc.). It makes me curious about if this person were from another tribe (at least in part), what the scenario was that allowed them to inherit and/or rise through the ranks to become someone important enough to sign a treaty. Jill, I know what you mean. I've considered the possibility of using variations. I know we only met briefly at Breath of Life last year so I don't know how much of my West Virginia accent/slang came out for you to hear but I do know that it does emerge from time to time (much to my wife's amusement when I say something like "I ain't eat yet" :) ). It's been years since I've lived there but those remnants still bubble to the surface. I think people are often flabbergasted when they find out that I work with languages LOL. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 1:18 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Interesting! Remember that as people like the American dialectologist William Labov taught us, if there are variations in how to pronounce something within a language, it’s rarely the case that anyone uses only one variation always, and the other group only uses the alternate. And the social context can subtly affect which one is chosen, even below the conscious level of the speaker. So, New York City speakers from a working class neighborhood might use the classic ‘r’ dropping X percent of the time, say 65% (John Boyle can probably remember this exactly), while middle class folks might only ‘drop their [r]’ 30%, and upper class folks might only have it 5% of the time, just as an example. It always seemed to me since so many Otoe-Missouria had Ioway kin (and vice versa) that an absolute 100% consistency in using the alternate forms (like the inye vs. inge example here) would be very unlikely. So beyond the possible differences in the persons’ hearing and transcription, it might have been perfectly acceptable to pronounce the name both ways, at the same point in time. (In this part of SW Missouri, Sky, your last name would traditionally be said more like the desert animal, Camel ☺; we had dear neighbors who I knew only by hearing their names spoken, and was surprised to find out later that the spelling had not one but two “silent letters”). Then a new girl of the same surname came to school, and she pronounced it Cam-bell, (still the silent p), so I added that variation for her name, but that didn’t change the way I addressed the older folks at church.... Best, Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 3:00 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Found this in the next treaty (1825) while trying to figure out yet another name LOL. Waw-zob-e-ing-ge And once I saw it, I remembered seeing it before. Now I have a shift from "th" to "z" in a span of 8 years and it has me questioning if "ignet" was actually supposed to represent -inye or -inge. If the first one was in face -inye then here you have another shift to -inge. Presumably this same individual was there to pronounce his name for whoever was writing it down. And if so, he changed 1 (and maybe 2) part of his name. A number of scenarios come to mind for the change (perhaps another one of the signers pronounced it for him) but it would still be nice to get this sorted out :). Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:27 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Whoops - I meant Dhegiha there. Sorry all! Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:22 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Good point Sky - Of course, there could be lots of alternative words for many things that we just don’t have examples, so this is exciting. Names are always fascinating. I must be getting hunger this afternoon, because Wasabi is a Japanese restaurant in town here, and the thought of wonderful hot horseradish came to my mind when your Otoe word was on the screen… ☺ Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:12 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" That’s a very good point, Jill, and well taken. Yes, there is an equivalent name, at least in the Thatada clan, which is Wasabe-zhiⁿga. If the term Sky found is a borrowing, it shows that understanding between the two groups at the time was good enough to cause Dhegiha ‘s’ to shift forward to Otoe ‘th’, and for the Dhegiha ‘small’ term (zhiⁿga) to be replaced by Otoe iñe, as Sky has just noted. But I think either of those are quite possible and likely, so we might want more evidence from Otoe before we conclude that this ‘bear’ term was generally used in Otoe. Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:52 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Sky and Rory, Great posts - one thing to consider also is that it’s actually not an Otoe word per se. It’s possible for entire names to have been borrowed across tribes (or bestowed, think of the intertribal peace-making child adoption tradition of the Pipe Dance (Calumet in some soures), with the Beloved Child (it could be a girl or a boy) undergoing an elaborate ceremony. People might have multiple names (family kin name, clan name, later a name from an accomplishment, plus nicknames [‘uncle names’]. Is there a similar name in Dhegiha groups? Best, Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:43 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Sky, The wasabe term is not just Ponca; it’s Omaha, Kaw and (as wasape) Osage as well. I assume it’s common Dhegiha. It refers to the black bear, as opposed to the mąnto-equivalent term for ‘grizzly bear’. I’m sure you’re entirely right that the ‘Wathapay’ part of that name is an Otoe equivalent of Dhegiha *wasape. It looks like the ‘ignet’ must have been written by a Frenchman; it kind of threw me a little at first. :) Anyway, if the *wasape term was not known from Otoe before, that’s a great catch! So it looks like you have three terms for ‘bear’?? Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 1:50 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" I've had a name from an old Otoe treaty (1817) that has always puzzled me. The name is: Wathapayignet - the Small Bear There is no mųnje (bear/black bear) or mąnto (grizzly bear) terms to be found in there. The "small" part is easy enough to pull out of there (yignet = -inye). Then the thought struck me about the Ponca term for bear (wasabe) and how the Ponca "s" can sometimes be the Otoe "th" in cognate terms. This gives me "wathabe" as the term for bear. Now before I run with this, does anyone have anything to back this up? It certainly makes sense and the pieces fit. But I have never seen "wathabe" anywhere as an Otoe word for bear. But if I am right, this would give me: Wathabeinye - Small Bear If I am correct, then I'm thinking that this is an extremely old term. Anyone else come across this before? Sky -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. 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This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com ­­ -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 11974 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Tue Apr 22 20:14:35 2014 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm Goodtracks) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 15:14:35 -0500 Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" In-Reply-To: <539ba22b02244f6ea1126b4a7b727b38@DM2PR08MB525.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Rory: They are both correct “séwe” or “šéwe”. The difference is that the OM tend to pronounce a “s” while the Ioway tend to pronounce a ‘’š ~ sh’’. The distinction is not clear cut, as there have been informants who tend to use the ‘’š ~ sh’’ at times and in certain words. Maybe once upon a time, it was an OM vs. I difference. So then, in the dictionary, such a word as we have here maybe be heard to be pronounced “séwe” or “šéwe”. Now Dorsey also uses the “s” and “sh.” The former usually represents the “th” while the latter represents the “s” sound. From: Rory Larson Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 11:54 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Jimm, is that “séwe” or “šéwe”? I looked it up in your dictionary, and found it under “šéwe”. Or is there no difference between /s/ and /š/ in IOM? From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Monday, April 21, 2014 9:16 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" I am in agreement with all said. May I add two things. Dorsey’s “ñ” in his text is equal to the “ng” as in “sing.” So in lieu of he Ioway “-iñe,” it would be the Otoe/Missouria “-inge.” Also, IOM does have a cognate to Omaha “sebe” which is “séwe” (brown). I have never known it to cover the meaning of “shawdowed,” as Rory says exists in Omaha. From: Rory Larson Sent: Monday, April 21, 2014 2:12 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Ø What I also find interesting, regardless of which of the above scenarios is correct for this term, is why were two portions of this word “shifted” to an Otoe-Missouria form (the s to a th and zhinga to –inye) and not a potential third? Why didn’t the “b (p)” turn into a “w” as seen in other cognates? That’s a very good observation, and I think it probably tells us that the word is a loan from Dhegiha, as Jill suggested, not a native Otoe-Missouria form. They would have understood the meaning well enough to change the ‘small’ word to their own term for “small”. The shift from /s/ to dental voiceless fricative “th” may have happened after the name was adopted, or else “th” may still have been the closest thing to /s/ they had when they adopted it. The main term is apparently analyzable in Dhegiha as wa-sabe, “the Black One”, based on sabe, meaning ‘black’. But in Chiwere, the word for ‘black’ seems to be thewe, which is presumably cognate to Dhegiha sebe, meaning ‘shadowed’. Going off Jimm’s Baxoje Dictionary, it looks like thewe is the only word for ‘black’ in that language, with no equivalent for Dhegiha sabe. So the term may not even be analyzable in Chiwere. That would mean that they pulled it in as a whole unanalyzed unit, complete with the foreign pronunciation. It would be like one of us, being gifted with the name from Omaha relatives, calling ourselves to other English speakers, “Little Wasabe” rather than “Little Blackbear”. ‘Little’ might have been a standard naming word in Otoe-Missouria that no one cared to mess with, but perhaps as a foreign term Wasabe carried a cachet that might have been lacking if they had translated it into the native Otoe-Missouria word for ‘black bear’. Incidentally, I believe that Comanche also adopted the wasabe term for ‘black bear’ from Dhegiha. Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky Sent: Monday, April 21, 2014 11:50 AM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" I found this while going through some of Dorsey’s names: Wa-ça-́pe yiñ-́e, Tciwere notation of the Cegiha, Wasabe jiñga, Young Black bear. See Mŭⁿtcinye. He shows this as an Otoe-Missouria Bear Clan name and there isn’t a mention of this individual belonging to another tribe. This list was made about 60+ years after the same name on the 1817 treaty. Could this be the same guy? Possible…especially since he often lists deceased individuals (no mention of that here though). I’d find it unlikely (but not impossible) that the same individual was still alive so I’m thinking that either he was given the name by someone, there was another individual living at that time with the same name, or perhaps he even got it off of the 1817 treaty and just added it to his list. What I find interesting is the “Tciwere notation of…” statement. I’m trying to figure out if he is trying to indicate that this name is an Otoe-Missouria cognate of the Dhegiha term (as in it was perhaps used regularly) or if it was a one-time thing and this was simply an Otoe-ization of Wasabe Zhinga. Him listing it as a Bear Clan name has me slightly leaning toward the former. What I also find interesting, regardless of which of the above scenarios is correct for this term, is why were two portions of this word “shifted” to an Otoe-Missouria form (the s to a th and zhinga to –inye) and not a potential third? Why didn’t the “b (p)” turn into a “w” as seen in other cognates? And naturally I didn’t stumble upon this information looking for this specific name…I was looking for something else!! Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 6:02 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Importance: Low Jimm, Very true...I've also seen a handful of names referring to other tribes (Ioway, Pawnee, Pottawatomie, Omaha, etc.). It makes me curious about if this person were from another tribe (at least in part), what the scenario was that allowed them to inherit and/or rise through the ranks to become someone important enough to sign a treaty. Jill, I know what you mean. I've considered the possibility of using variations. I know we only met briefly at Breath of Life last year so I don't know how much of my West Virginia accent/slang came out for you to hear but I do know that it does emerge from time to time (much to my wife's amusement when I say something like "I ain't eat yet" :) ). It's been years since I've lived there but those remnants still bubble to the surface. I think people are often flabbergasted when they find out that I work with languages LOL. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 1:18 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Interesting! Remember that as people like the American dialectologist William Labov taught us, if there are variations in how to pronounce something within a language, it’s rarely the case that anyone uses only one variation always, and the other group only uses the alternate. And the social context can subtly affect which one is chosen, even below the conscious level of the speaker. So, New York City speakers from a working class neighborhood might use the classic ‘r’ dropping X percent of the time, say 65% (John Boyle can probably remember this exactly), while middle class folks might only ‘drop their [r]’ 30%, and upper class folks might only have it 5% of the time, just as an example. It always seemed to me since so many Otoe-Missouria had Ioway kin (and vice versa) that an absolute 100% consistency in using the alternate forms (like the inye vs. inge example here) would be very unlikely. So beyond the possible differences in the persons’ hearing and transcription, it might have been perfectly acceptable to pronounce the name both ways, at the same point in time. (In this part of SW Missouri, Sky, your last name would traditionally be said more like the desert animal, Camel J; we had dear neighbors who I knew only by hearing their names spoken, and was surprised to find out later that the spelling had not one but two “silent letters”). Then a new girl of the same surname came to school, and she pronounced it Cam-bell, (still the silent p), so I added that variation for her name, but that didn’t change the way I addressed the older folks at church.... Best, Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 3:00 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Found this in the next treaty (1825) while trying to figure out yet another name LOL. Waw-zob-e-ing-ge And once I saw it, I remembered seeing it before. Now I have a shift from "th" to "z" in a span of 8 years and it has me questioning if "ignet" was actually supposed to represent -inye or -inge. If the first one was in face -inye then here you have another shift to -inge. Presumably this same individual was there to pronounce his name for whoever was writing it down. And if so, he changed 1 (and maybe 2) part of his name. A number of scenarios come to mind for the change (perhaps another one of the signers pronounced it for him) but it would still be nice to get this sorted out :). Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:27 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Whoops - I meant Dhegiha there. Sorry all! Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:22 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Good point Sky - Of course, there could be lots of alternative words for many things that we just don’t have examples, so this is exciting. Names are always fascinating. I must be getting hunger this afternoon, because Wasabi is a Japanese restaurant in town here, and the thought of wonderful hot horseradish came to my mind when your Otoe word was on the screen… J Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:12 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" That’s a very good point, Jill, and well taken. Yes, there is an equivalent name, at least in the Thatada clan, which is Wasabe-zhiⁿga. If the term Sky found is a borrowing, it shows that understanding between the two groups at the time was good enough to cause Dhegiha ‘s’ to shift forward to Otoe ‘th’, and for the Dhegiha ‘small’ term (zhiⁿga) to be replaced by Otoe iñe, as Sky has just noted. But I think either of those are quite possible and likely, so we might want more evidence from Otoe before we conclude that this ‘bear’ term was generally used in Otoe. Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:52 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Sky and Rory, Great posts - one thing to consider also is that it’s actually not an Otoe word per se. It’s possible for entire names to have been borrowed across tribes (or bestowed, think of the intertribal peace-making child adoption tradition of the Pipe Dance (Calumet in some soures), with the Beloved Child (it could be a girl or a boy) undergoing an elaborate ceremony. People might have multiple names (family kin name, clan name, later a name from an accomplishment, plus nicknames [‘uncle names’]. Is there a similar name in Dhegiha groups? Best, Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:43 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Sky, The wasabe term is not just Ponca; it’s Omaha, Kaw and (as wasape) Osage as well. I assume it’s common Dhegiha. It refers to the black bear, as opposed to the mąnto-equivalent term for ‘grizzly bear’. I’m sure you’re entirely right that the ‘Wathapay’ part of that name is an Otoe equivalent of Dhegiha *wasape. It looks like the ‘ignet’ must have been written by a Frenchman; it kind of threw me a little at first. :) Anyway, if the *wasape term was not known from Otoe before, that’s a great catch! So it looks like you have three terms for ‘bear’?? Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 1:50 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" I've had a name from an old Otoe treaty (1817) that has always puzzled me. The name is: Wathapayignet - the Small Bear There is no mųnje (bear/black bear) or mąnto (grizzly bear) terms to be found in there. The "small" part is easy enough to pull out of there (yignet = -inye). Then the thought struck me about the Ponca term for bear (wasabe) and how the Ponca "s" can sometimes be the Otoe "th" in cognate terms. This gives me "wathabe" as the term for bear. Now before I run with this, does anyone have anything to back this up? It certainly makes sense and the pieces fit. But I have never seen "wathabe" anywhere as an Otoe word for bear. But if I am right, this would give me: Wathabeinye - Small Bear If I am correct, then I'm thinking that this is an extremely old term. Anyone else come across this before? Sky -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com ­­ -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 11974 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Wed Apr 23 01:36:31 2014 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2014 01:36:31 +0000 Subject: Terms for 'black' in MVS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, Jimm. That’s pretty much what I was thinking. I believe the original Siouan sound here was /š/, and some speakers, especially the Otoe-Missouria, have shifted it forward to something more like /s/. At the same time, the original Siouan /s/ has also shifted forward in IOM to something like /þ/, “thorn”, or what we write “th”. So Omaha “s” would correspond to IOM “th”, and IOM “s” or “sh” would correspond to Omaha “sh”. According to the CSD, we seem to have about four or five different words for ‘black’ in Siouan, which are all related to each other by a couple of sound alternations. First, we have alternation in the main vowel between /e/ and /a/, which gives us two alternative forms of ‘black’: *sepe *sape Within MVS, Hochank and IOM chose *sepe as their basic word for ‘black’, while Dakotan and Dhegiha chose *sape. However, Dhegiha at least preserved *sepe as an alternate ‘black’ term in rare cases. Bob Rankin found a séwe term for ‘black’ in Quapaw, and in Omaha the name of one of our speakers is Mi-sebe, meaning “Dark of the Moon”. She and her sister made it very clear to us that the sebe part of this is not the ‘black’ word, sábe. They say that sébe is its own word meaning “shadowy”, and in this case refers to the part of the moon that is dark when the moon is not full. I don’t know that I’ve ever run into the term outside of this case in Omaha, so perhaps it is preserved there mainly because it appears in a name. Second, these two ‘black’ words were both given alternates via Siouan fricative ablaut. The initial /s/ could be changed to /š/ to give the idea of an “off-black”, or “dark”: *sepe => *šepe *sape => *šape In Dhegiha, the *šape term means ‘dark (colored)’, and in Dakotan it means ‘dirty’, both in contrast to *sape, meaning ‘black’. In IOM and Hochank, the *šepe term means ‘dark’, ‘suntanned’ or ‘brown’ in contrast to *sepe, ‘black’. So we get a comparative matrix that looks something like this: ‘black’ ‘off-black’ MVS *sepe => *šepe Ho séep => šéep (‘dark’, ‘suntanned’) IOM thewe => sewe or šewe (‘brown’) OP sebe (‘shadowy’) MVS *sape => *šape OP sabe => šabe (‘dark’) Da sapA => šapA (‘dirty’) Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 3:15 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Rory: They are both correct “séwe” or “šéwe”. The difference is that the OM tend to pronounce a “s” while the Ioway tend to pronounce a ‘’š ~ sh’’. The distinction is not clear cut, as there have been informants who tend to use the ‘’š ~ sh’’ at times and in certain words. Maybe once upon a time, it was an OM vs. I difference. So then, in the dictionary, such a word as we have here maybe be heard to be pronounced “séwe” or “šéwe”. Now Dorsey also uses the “s” and “sh.” The former usually represents the “th” while the latter represents the “s” sound. From: Rory Larson Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 11:54 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Jimm, is that “séwe” or “šéwe”? I looked it up in your dictionary, and found it under “šéwe”. Or is there no difference between /s/ and /š/ in IOM? From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Monday, April 21, 2014 9:16 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" I am in agreement with all said. May I add two things. Dorsey’s “ñ” in his text is equal to the “ng” as in “sing.” So in lieu of he Ioway “-iñe,” it would be the Otoe/Missouria “-inge.” Also, IOM does have a cognate to Omaha “sebe” which is “séwe” (brown). I have never known it to cover the meaning of “shawdowed,” as Rory says exists in Omaha. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Wed Apr 23 04:00:06 2014 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM (Sky Campbell) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 23:00:06 -0500 Subject: Terms for 'black' in MVS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is pretty cool :). Maximilian gives the Otoe word for black as "sewe" and notes that the Otoe language doesn't have a word for brown. Here is the entry for brown: chudje (ch guttural; e distinctly pronounced); i.e., dark, smoky, they have no word for brown Now this looks very close to "xoje" (gray). Maximilian has this for gray: cho-djé (j French; ch guttural) I'm thinking this is the same word. He does seem to flip-flop between o and u in some of the same words. But I'm still curious if the use of u is going another route. Maximilian also has an interesting term for shade/shadow: oh-uan-seh (an French) This looks to be "owase/uwase" and this might be a long shot but I'm wondering if the -se at the end might be related to the sewe/sebe idea for shadowy. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 8:37 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Terms for 'black' in MVS Thanks, Jimm. That’s pretty much what I was thinking. I believe the original Siouan sound here was /š/, and some speakers, especially the Otoe-Missouria, have shifted it forward to something more like /s/. At the same time, the original Siouan /s/ has also shifted forward in IOM to something like /þ/, “thorn”, or what we write “th”. So Omaha “s” would correspond to IOM “th”, and IOM “s” or “sh” would correspond to Omaha “sh”. According to the CSD, we seem to have about four or five different words for ‘black’ in Siouan, which are all related to each other by a couple of sound alternations. First, we have alternation in the main vowel between /e/ and /a/, which gives us two alternative forms of ‘black’: *sepe *sape Within MVS, Hochank and IOM chose *sepe as their basic word for ‘black’, while Dakotan and Dhegiha chose *sape. However, Dhegiha at least preserved *sepe as an alternate ‘black’ term in rare cases. Bob Rankin found a séwe term for ‘black’ in Quapaw, and in Omaha the name of one of our speakers is Mi-sebe, meaning “Dark of the Moon”. She and her sister made it very clear to us that the sebe part of this is not the ‘black’ word, sábe. They say that sébe is its own word meaning “shadowy”, and in this case refers to the part of the moon that is dark when the moon is not full. I don’t know that I’ve ever run into the term outside of this case in Omaha, so perhaps it is preserved there mainly because it appears in a name. Second, these two ‘black’ words were both given alternates via Siouan fricative ablaut. The initial /s/ could be changed to /š/ to give the idea of an “off-black”, or “dark”: *sepe => *šepe *sape => *šape In Dhegiha, the *šape term means ‘dark (colored)’, and in Dakotan it means ‘dirty’, both in contrast to *sape, meaning ‘black’. In IOM and Hochank, the *šepe term means ‘dark’, ‘suntanned’ or ‘brown’ in contrast to *sepe, ‘black’. So we get a comparative matrix that looks something like this: ‘black’ ‘off-black’ MVS *sepe => *šepe Ho séep => šéep (‘dark’, ‘suntanned’) IOM thewe => sewe or šewe (‘brown’) OP sebe (‘shadowy’) MVS *sape => *šape OP sabe => šabe (‘dark’) Da sapA => šapA (‘dirty’) Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 3:15 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Rory: They are both correct “séwe” or “šéwe”. The difference is that the OM tend to pronounce a “s” while the Ioway tend to pronounce a ‘’š ~ sh’’. The distinction is not clear cut, as there have been informants who tend to use the ‘’š ~ sh’’ at times and in certain words. Maybe once upon a time, it was an OM vs. I difference. So then, in the dictionary, such a word as we have here maybe be heard to be pronounced “séwe” or “šéwe”. Now Dorsey also uses the “s” and “sh.” The former usually represents the “th” while the latter represents the “s” sound. From: Rory Larson Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 11:54 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Jimm, is that “séwe” or “šéwe”? I looked it up in your dictionary, and found it under “šéwe”. Or is there no difference between /s/ and /š/ in IOM? From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Monday, April 21, 2014 9:16 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" I am in agreement with all said. May I add two things. Dorsey’s “ñ” in his text is equal to the “ng” as in “sing.” So in lieu of he Ioway “-iñe,” it would be the Otoe/Missouria “-inge.” Also, IOM does have a cognate to Omaha “sebe” which is “séwe” (brown). I have never known it to cover the meaning of “shawdowed,” as Rory says exists in Omaha. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Wed Apr 23 14:52:17 2014 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm Goodtracks) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2014 09:52:17 -0500 Subject: Terms for 'black' in MVS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Rory: For your information, Note: dirty (clothes) adj. thewára; ithéwara; maxri (max): (I am…, hinthéwera; you are…, rithéwera; we two are…, wáwathéwera; we all are…, wáwathéwerawi; they two are…, théwerawi; they all are…, théwerañe). dirty, deface (by scratching, etc.) v.t. igíthewara: (I…, ihéthewara; you…, iréthewara; we…, híngithewarawi; they…, igíthewarañe). Máhi ^únna nóbrathge chí igíthewarañe ke, They defaced the frame house wíth a knife. dirty, soil, deface from use v.t. irúthewára. dirty water n. ñí úšoje; ñúšoje (i.). Nemaha River (in Nebraska and Kansas) n. Ñímáha (lit.: “water dirty”). dirty with mouth (s.t.) v.t. iráthewara. dirty with feet ~ by walking on v.t. ináthewara. dirty up, soil, deface by writing on v.t. wathéwe; wašéwe. get dirty v.i. xríx^e; théwahi; irúthewara; iwáthewara; ibáthewara. dirty; soiled; second-hand (from short use) adj. thewára; théware (dor). From: Rory Larson Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 8:36 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Terms for 'black' in MVS Thanks, Jimm. That’s pretty much what I was thinking. I believe the original Siouan sound here was /š/, and some speakers, especially the Otoe-Missouria, have shifted it forward to something more like /s/. At the same time, the original Siouan /s/ has also shifted forward in IOM to something like /þ/, “thorn”, or what we write “th”. So Omaha “s” would correspond to IOM “th”, and IOM “s” or “sh” would correspond to Omaha “sh”. According to the CSD, we seem to have about four or five different words for ‘black’ in Siouan, which are all related to each other by a couple of sound alternations. First, we have alternation in the main vowel between /e/ and /a/, which gives us two alternative forms of ‘black’: *sepe *sape Within MVS, Hochank and IOM chose *sepe as their basic word for ‘black’, while Dakotan and Dhegiha chose *sape. However, Dhegiha at least preserved *sepe as an alternate ‘black’ term in rare cases. Bob Rankin found a séwe term for ‘black’ in Quapaw, and in Omaha the name of one of our speakers is Mi-sebe, meaning “Dark of the Moon”. She and her sister made it very clear to us that the sebe part of this is not the ‘black’ word, sábe. They say that sébe is its own word meaning “shadowy”, and in this case refers to the part of the moon that is dark when the moon is not full. I don’t know that I’ve ever run into the term outside of this case in Omaha, so perhaps it is preserved there mainly because it appears in a name. Second, these two ‘black’ words were both given alternates via Siouan fricative ablaut. The initial /s/ could be changed to /š/ to give the idea of an “off-black”, or “dark”: *sepe => *šepe *sape => *šape In Dhegiha, the *šape term means ‘dark (colored)’, and in Dakotan it means ‘dirty’, both in contrast to *sape, meaning ‘black’. In IOM and Hochank, the *šepe term means ‘dark’, ‘suntanned’ or ‘brown’ in contrast to *sepe, ‘black’. So we get a comparative matrix that looks something like this: ‘black’ ‘off-black’ MVS *sepe => *šepe Ho séep => šéep (‘dark’, ‘suntanned’) IOM thewe => sewe or šewe (‘brown’) OP sebe (‘shadowy’) MVS *sape => *šape OP sabe => šabe (‘dark’) Da sapA => šapA (‘dirty’) Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 3:15 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Rory: They are both correct “séwe” or “šéwe”. The difference is that the OM tend to pronounce a “s” while the Ioway tend to pronounce a ‘’š ~ sh’’. The distinction is not clear cut, as there have been informants who tend to use the ‘’š ~ sh’’ at times and in certain words. Maybe once upon a time, it was an OM vs. I difference. So then, in the dictionary, such a word as we have here maybe be heard to be pronounced “séwe” or “šéwe”. Now Dorsey also uses the “s” and “sh.” The former usually represents the “th” while the latter represents the “s” sound. From: Rory Larson Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 11:54 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Jimm, is that “séwe” or “šéwe”? I looked it up in your dictionary, and found it under “šéwe”. Or is there no difference between /s/ and /š/ in IOM? From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Monday, April 21, 2014 9:16 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" I am in agreement with all said. May I add two things. Dorsey’s “ñ” in his text is equal to the “ng” as in “sing.” So in lieu of he Ioway “-iñe,” it would be the Otoe/Missouria “-inge.” Also, IOM does have a cognate to Omaha “sebe” which is “séwe” (brown). I have never known it to cover the meaning of “shawdowed,” as Rory says exists in Omaha. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Wed Apr 23 15:13:48 2014 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm Goodtracks) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2014 10:13:48 -0500 Subject: Terms for 'black' in MVS In-Reply-To: <000301cf5ea8$83e8ea30$8bbabe90$@com> Message-ID: Below, the word Maximilian gave for brown is “suje” (red). This is confirmed by the late Elders, and was used in the term for brown bear “Múnje séwe.” On the other term: cho-djé (j French; ch guttural) uhádhe (shawdow; shade; dark as at night fall). From: Sky Campbell Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 11:00 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Terms for 'black' in MVS This is pretty cool :). Maximilian gives the Otoe word for black as "sewe" and notes that the Otoe language doesn't have a word for brown. Here is the entry for brown: chudje (ch guttural; e distinctly pronounced); i.e., dark, smoky, they have no word for brown Now this looks very close to "xoje" (gray). Maximilian has this for gray: cho-djé (j French; ch guttural) I'm thinking this is the same word. He does seem to flip-flop between o and u in some of the same words. But I'm still curious if the use of u is going another route. dirty (clothes) adj. thewára; ithéwara; maxri (max): (I am…, hinthéwera; you are…, rithéwera; we two are…, wáwathéwera; we all are…, wáwathéwerawi; they two are…, théwerawi; they all are…, théwerañe). dirty, deface (by scratching, etc.) v.t. igíthewara: (I…, ihéthewara; you…, iréthewara; we…, híngithewarawi; they…, igíthewarañe). Máhi ^únna nóbrathge chí igíthewarañe ke, They defaced the frame house wíth a knife. dirty, soil, deface from use v.t. irúthewára. dirty water n. ñí úšoje; ñúšoje (i.). Nemaha River (in Nebraska and Kansas) n. Ñímáha (lit.: “water dirty”). dirty with mouth (s.t.) v.t. iráthewara. dirty with feet ~ by walking on v.t. ináthewara. dirty up, soil, deface by writing on v.t. wathéwe; wašéwe. get dirty v.i. xríx^e; théwahi; irúthewara; iwáthewara; ibáthewara. dirty; soiled; second-hand (from short use) adj. thewára; théware (dor). This looks to be "owase/uwase" and this might be a long shot but I'm wondering if the -se at the end might be related to the sewe/sebe idea for shadowy. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 8:37 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Terms for 'black' in MVS Thanks, Jimm. That’s pretty much what I was thinking. I believe the original Siouan sound here was /š/, and some speakers, especially the Otoe-Missouria, have shifted it forward to something more like /s/. At the same time, the original Siouan /s/ has also shifted forward in IOM to something like /þ/, “thorn”, or what we write “th”. So Omaha “s” would correspond to IOM “th”, and IOM “s” or “sh” would correspond to Omaha “sh”. According to the CSD, we seem to have about four or five different words for ‘black’ in Siouan, which are all related to each other by a couple of sound alternations. First, we have alternation in the main vowel between /e/ and /a/, which gives us two alternative forms of ‘black’: *sepe *sape Within MVS, Hochank and IOM chose *sepe as their basic word for ‘black’, while Dakotan and Dhegiha chose *sape. However, Dhegiha at least preserved *sepe as an alternate ‘black’ term in rare cases. Bob Rankin found a séwe term for ‘black’ in Quapaw, and in Omaha the name of one of our speakers is Mi-sebe, meaning “Dark of the Moon”. She and her sister made it very clear to us that the sebe part of this is not the ‘black’ word, sábe. They say that sébe is its own word meaning “shadowy”, and in this case refers to the part of the moon that is dark when the moon is not full. I don’t know that I’ve ever run into the term outside of this case in Omaha, so perhaps it is preserved there mainly because it appears in a name. Second, these two ‘black’ words were both given alternates via Siouan fricative ablaut. The initial /s/ could be changed to /š/ to give the idea of an “off-black”, or “dark”: *sepe => *šepe *sape => *šape In Dhegiha, the *šape term means ‘dark (colored)’, and in Dakotan it means ‘dirty’, both in contrast to *sape, meaning ‘black’. In IOM and Hochank, the *šepe term means ‘dark’, ‘suntanned’ or ‘brown’ in contrast to *sepe, ‘black’. So we get a comparative matrix that looks something like this: ‘black’ ‘off-black’ MVS *sepe => *šepe Ho séep => šéep (‘dark’, ‘suntanned’) IOM thewe => sewe or šewe (‘brown’) OP sebe (‘shadowy’) MVS *sape => *šape OP sabe => šabe (‘dark’) Da sapA => šapA (‘dirty’) Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 3:15 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Rory: They are both correct “séwe” or “šéwe”. The difference is that the OM tend to pronounce a “s” while the Ioway tend to pronounce a ‘’š ~ sh’’. The distinction is not clear cut, as there have been informants who tend to use the ‘’š ~ sh’’ at times and in certain words. Maybe once upon a time, it was an OM vs. I difference. So then, in the dictionary, such a word as we have here maybe be heard to be pronounced “séwe” or “šéwe”. Now Dorsey also uses the “s” and “sh.” The former usually represents the “th” while the latter represents the “s” sound. From: Rory Larson Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 11:54 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Jimm, is that “séwe” or “šéwe”? I looked it up in your dictionary, and found it under “šéwe”. Or is there no difference between /s/ and /š/ in IOM? From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Monday, April 21, 2014 9:16 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" I am in agreement with all said. May I add two things. Dorsey’s “ñ” in his text is equal to the “ng” as in “sing.” So in lieu of he Ioway “-iñe,” it would be the Otoe/Missouria “-inge.” Also, IOM does have a cognate to Omaha “sebe” which is “séwe” (brown). I have never known it to cover the meaning of “shawdowed,” as Rory says exists in Omaha. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG Wed Apr 23 16:30:00 2014 From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2014 11:30:00 -0500 Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Terms for 'black' in MVS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I’d thought of the idea for red but he lists it as: schu-djä̇ There we have an “sch-“ (with no mention of guttural) versus his “ch-“ in the other term (which he notes is guttural). He also has “må-chudjé” for ashes and “åchudjeh” for coal. Maximilian does have this term for “dark”: ohånsä̇ (an French) That’s a dead-ringer for our modern form (just swap out the s). He also has dirty (two spellings for it): måh-chrih (ch with the point of the tongue) and måchré (ch guttural) Looking at his Omaha terms, he has that same term for dirty as well (with an extra –chri added to have “mån-chri-chri”). I know that “sewe” used to be used for black, but I am curious when it started to be used for brown (or perhaps it always ways and it just wasn’t documented (or I haven’t found it yet)). Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2014 10:14 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Terms for 'black' in MVS Importance: Low Below, the word Maximilian gave for brown is “suje” (red). This is confirmed by the late Elders, and was used in the term for brown bear “Múnje séwe.” On the other term: cho-djé (j French; ch guttural) uhádhe (shawdow; shade; dark as at night fall). From: Sky Campbell Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 11:00 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Terms for 'black' in MVS This is pretty cool :). Maximilian gives the Otoe word for black as "sewe" and notes that the Otoe language doesn't have a word for brown. Here is the entry for brown: chudje (ch guttural; e distinctly pronounced); i.e., dark, smoky, they have no word for brown Now this looks very close to "xoje" (gray). Maximilian has this for gray: cho-djé (j French; ch guttural) I'm thinking this is the same word. He does seem to flip-flop between o and u in some of the same words. But I'm still curious if the use of u is going another route. dirty (clothes) adj. thewára; ithéwara; maxri (max): (I am…, hinthéwera; you are…, rithéwera; we two are…, wáwathéwera; we all are…, wáwathéwerawi; they two are…, théwerawi; they all are…, théwerañe). dirty, deface (by scratching, etc.) v.t. igíthewara: (I…, ihéthewara; you…, iréthewara; we…, híngithewarawi; they…, igíthewarañe). Máhi ^únna nóbrathge chí igíthewarañe ke, They defaced the frame house wíth a knife. dirty, soil, deface from use v.t. irúthewára. dirty water n. ñí úšoje; ñúšoje (i.). Nemaha River (in Nebraska and Kansas) n. Ñímáha (lit.: “water dirty”). dirty with mouth (s.t.) v.t. iráthewara. dirty with feet ~ by walking on v.t. ináthewara. dirty up, soil, deface by writing on v.t. wathéwe; wašéwe. get dirty v.i. xríx^e; théwahi; irúthewara; iwáthewara; ibáthewara. dirty; soiled; second-hand (from short use) adj. thewára; théware (dor). This looks to be "owase/uwase" and this might be a long shot but I'm wondering if the -se at the end might be related to the sewe/sebe idea for shadowy. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 8:37 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Terms for 'black' in MVS Thanks, Jimm. That’s pretty much what I was thinking. I believe the original Siouan sound here was /š/, and some speakers, especially the Otoe-Missouria, have shifted it forward to something more like /s/. At the same time, the original Siouan /s/ has also shifted forward in IOM to something like /þ/, “thorn”, or what we write “th”. So Omaha “s” would correspond to IOM “th”, and IOM “s” or “sh” would correspond to Omaha “sh”. According to the CSD, we seem to have about four or five different words for ‘black’ in Siouan, which are all related to each other by a couple of sound alternations. First, we have alternation in the main vowel between /e/ and /a/, which gives us two alternative forms of ‘black’: *sepe *sape Within MVS, Hochank and IOM chose *sepe as their basic word for ‘black’, while Dakotan and Dhegiha chose *sape. However, Dhegiha at least preserved *sepe as an alternate ‘black’ term in rare cases. Bob Rankin found a séwe term for ‘black’ in Quapaw, and in Omaha the name of one of our speakers is Mi-sebe, meaning “Dark of the Moon”. She and her sister made it very clear to us that the sebe part of this is not the ‘black’ word, sábe. They say that sébe is its own word meaning “shadowy”, and in this case refers to the part of the moon that is dark when the moon is not full. I don’t know that I’ve ever run into the term outside of this case in Omaha, so perhaps it is preserved there mainly because it appears in a name. Second, these two ‘black’ words were both given alternates via Siouan fricative ablaut. The initial /s/ could be changed to /š/ to give the idea of an “off-black”, or “dark”: *sepe => *šepe *sape => *šape In Dhegiha, the *šape term means ‘dark (colored)’, and in Dakotan it means ‘dirty’, both in contrast to *sape, meaning ‘black’. In IOM and Hochank, the *šepe term means ‘dark’, ‘suntanned’ or ‘brown’ in contrast to *sepe, ‘black’. So we get a comparative matrix that looks something like this: ‘black’ ‘off-black’ MVS *sepe => *šepe Ho séep => šéep (‘dark’, ‘suntanned’) IOM thewe => sewe or šewe (‘brown’) OP sebe (‘shadowy’) MVS *sape => *šape OP sabe => šabe (‘dark’) Da sapA => šapA (‘dirty’) Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 3:15 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Rory: They are both correct “séwe” or “šéwe”. The difference is that the OM tend to pronounce a “s” while the Ioway tend to pronounce a ‘’š ~ sh’’. The distinction is not clear cut, as there have been informants who tend to use the ‘’š ~ sh’’ at times and in certain words. Maybe once upon a time, it was an OM vs. I difference. So then, in the dictionary, such a word as we have here maybe be heard to be pronounced “séwe” or “šéwe”. Now Dorsey also uses the “s” and “sh.” The former usually represents the “th” while the latter represents the “s” sound. From: Rory Larson Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 11:54 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Jimm, is that “séwe” or “šéwe”? I looked it up in your dictionary, and found it under “šéwe”. Or is there no difference between /s/ and /š/ in IOM? From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Monday, April 21, 2014 9:16 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" I am in agreement with all said. May I add two things. Dorsey’s “ñ” in his text is equal to the “ng” as in “sing.” So in lieu of he Ioway “-iñe,” it would be the Otoe/Missouria “-inge.” Also, IOM does have a cognate to Omaha “sebe” which is “séwe” (brown). I have never known it to cover the meaning of “shawdowed,” as Rory says exists in Omaha. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Wed Apr 23 20:11:58 2014 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm Goodtracks) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2014 15:11:58 -0500 Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Terms for 'black' in MVS In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E436C33F979B4A@Server6-EX.omtribe.net> Message-ID: He also has dirty (two spellings for it): måh-chrih (ch with the point of the tongue) and måchré (ch guttural) xrí; xrín v.i. cry, be sore; be upset, angered; ooze, run, fester; be fatty, gummy; mucous, pus; drool; wound; sore. axrí v.t. cry for s.o., s.t. Šé xáñe axrí ke, He is crying for an apple. Ihún axrí máñi ke, He is always crying for his mother. éxri [a +gi + xri] v.t. gum up, gum shut; apply wax. **SEE: thrí; wasgéwe. [W. hasiriré (ooze out); hosarag (ooze out; flow slowly); Os. xthí (fester); íxthi (saliva); íxthitu (spit); L. xní; D. xdí (sore, raw; a running sore; raw place]. póxriiñe (I.) ~ póxriiŋe [pá + uxrí + iße] (O.) n. screech owl (lit: “little sore head”). ** xríge n. cry baby. xrínge v.i. growl; snarl. xríx^e v.i. get dirty, soil; dirty up; deface by writing on. **SEE: théwahi; irúthewara. xrítan (DOR) adj. cruel, bad, wicked. [It is said of someone who causes unnecessary pain or trouble]: (I am..., hinxrítan; you.are..., rixrítan; we are..., wawáxrítanwi; they are..., waxrítanñe). (OmP. xthítu). From: Campbell, Sky Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2014 11:30 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Terms for 'black' in MVS I’d thought of the idea for red but he lists it as: schu-djä̇ There we have an “sch-“ (with no mention of guttural) versus his “ch-“ in the other term (which he notes is guttural). He also has “må-chudjé” for ashes and “åchudjeh” for coal. Maximilian does have this term for “dark”: ohånsä̇ (an French) That’s a dead-ringer for our modern form (just swap out the s). He also has dirty (two spellings for it): måh-chrih (ch with the point of the tongue) and måchré (ch guttural) Looking at his Omaha terms, he has that same term for dirty as well (with an extra –chri added to have “mån-chri-chri”). I know that “sewe” used to be used for black, but I am curious when it started to be used for brown (or perhaps it always ways and it just wasn’t documented (or I haven’t found it yet)). Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2014 10:14 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Terms for 'black' in MVS Importance: Low Below, the word Maximilian gave for brown is “suje” (red). This is confirmed by the late Elders, and was used in the term for brown bear “Múnje séwe.” On the other term: cho-djé (j French; ch guttural) uhádhe (shawdow; shade; dark as at night fall). From: Sky Campbell Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 11:00 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Terms for 'black' in MVS This is pretty cool :). Maximilian gives the Otoe word for black as "sewe" and notes that the Otoe language doesn't have a word for brown. Here is the entry for brown: chudje (ch guttural; e distinctly pronounced); i.e., dark, smoky, they have no word for brown Now this looks very close to "xoje" (gray). Maximilian has this for gray: cho-djé (j French; ch guttural) I'm thinking this is the same word. He does seem to flip-flop between o and u in some of the same words. But I'm still curious if the use of u is going another route. dirty (clothes) adj. thewára; ithéwara; maxri (max): (I am…, hinthéwera; you are…, rithéwera; we two are…, wáwathéwera; we all are…, wáwathéwerawi; they two are…, théwerawi; they all are…, théwerañe). dirty, deface (by scratching, etc.) v.t. igíthewara: (I…, ihéthewara; you…, iréthewara; we…, híngithewarawi; they…, igíthewarañe). Máhi ^únna nóbrathge chí igíthewarañe ke, They defaced the frame house wíth a knife. dirty, soil, deface from use v.t. irúthewára. dirty water n. ñí úšoje; ñúšoje (i.). Nemaha River (in Nebraska and Kansas) n. Ñímáha (lit.: “water dirty”). dirty with mouth (s.t.) v.t. iráthewara. dirty with feet ~ by walking on v.t. ináthewara. dirty up, soil, deface by writing on v.t. wathéwe; wašéwe. get dirty v.i. xríx^e; théwahi; irúthewara; iwáthewara; ibáthewara. dirty; soiled; second-hand (from short use) adj. thewára; théware (dor). This looks to be "owase/uwase" and this might be a long shot but I'm wondering if the -se at the end might be related to the sewe/sebe idea for shadowy. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 8:37 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Terms for 'black' in MVS Thanks, Jimm. That’s pretty much what I was thinking. I believe the original Siouan sound here was /š/, and some speakers, especially the Otoe-Missouria, have shifted it forward to something more like /s/. At the same time, the original Siouan /s/ has also shifted forward in IOM to something like /þ/, “thorn”, or what we write “th”. So Omaha “s” would correspond to IOM “th”, and IOM “s” or “sh” would correspond to Omaha “sh”. According to the CSD, we seem to have about four or five different words for ‘black’ in Siouan, which are all related to each other by a couple of sound alternations. First, we have alternation in the main vowel between /e/ and /a/, which gives us two alternative forms of ‘black’: *sepe *sape Within MVS, Hochank and IOM chose *sepe as their basic word for ‘black’, while Dakotan and Dhegiha chose *sape. However, Dhegiha at least preserved *sepe as an alternate ‘black’ term in rare cases. Bob Rankin found a séwe term for ‘black’ in Quapaw, and in Omaha the name of one of our speakers is Mi-sebe, meaning “Dark of the Moon”. She and her sister made it very clear to us that the sebe part of this is not the ‘black’ word, sábe. They say that sébe is its own word meaning “shadowy”, and in this case refers to the part of the moon that is dark when the moon is not full. I don’t know that I’ve ever run into the term outside of this case in Omaha, so perhaps it is preserved there mainly because it appears in a name. Second, these two ‘black’ words were both given alternates via Siouan fricative ablaut. The initial /s/ could be changed to /š/ to give the idea of an “off-black”, or “dark”: *sepe => *šepe *sape => *šape In Dhegiha, the *šape term means ‘dark (colored)’, and in Dakotan it means ‘dirty’, both in contrast to *sape, meaning ‘black’. In IOM and Hochank, the *šepe term means ‘dark’, ‘suntanned’ or ‘brown’ in contrast to *sepe, ‘black’. So we get a comparative matrix that looks something like this: ‘black’ ‘off-black’ MVS *sepe => *šepe Ho séep => šéep (‘dark’, ‘suntanned’) IOM thewe => sewe or šewe (‘brown’) OP sebe (‘shadowy’) MVS *sape => *šape OP sabe => šabe (‘dark’) Da sapA => šapA (‘dirty’) Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 3:15 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Rory: They are both correct “séwe” or “šéwe”. The difference is that the OM tend to pronounce a “s” while the Ioway tend to pronounce a ‘’š ~ sh’’. The distinction is not clear cut, as there have been informants who tend to use the ‘’š ~ sh’’ at times and in certain words. Maybe once upon a time, it was an OM vs. I difference. So then, in the dictionary, such a word as we have here maybe be heard to be pronounced “séwe” or “šéwe”. Now Dorsey also uses the “s” and “sh.” The former usually represents the “th” while the latter represents the “s” sound. From: Rory Larson Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 11:54 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Jimm, is that “séwe” or “šéwe”? I looked it up in your dictionary, and found it under “šéwe”. Or is there no difference between /s/ and /š/ in IOM? From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Monday, April 21, 2014 9:16 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" I am in agreement with all said. May I add two things. Dorsey’s “ñ” in his text is equal to the “ng” as in “sing.” So in lieu of he Ioway “-iñe,” it would be the Otoe/Missouria “-inge.” Also, IOM does have a cognate to Omaha “sebe” which is “séwe” (brown). I have never known it to cover the meaning of “shawdowed,” as Rory says exists in Omaha. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com ­­ -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU Thu Apr 24 22:27:19 2014 From: sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU (Saul Schwartz) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 16:27:19 -0600 Subject: citation/quotation conventions for list? Message-ID: Dear all, I am wondering about the social conventions (stated or unstated) for citing and/or quoting material from the Siouan Listserv. On the one hand, the List is archived for anyone to view here ( http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A0=SIOUAN), so it is in some sense a public text. On the other hand, there is a strong sense of community among members of the List, and I have a feeling that we sometimes forget that we’re talking to each other in what is essentially a public forum (in the sense that the public can listen in on our conversation; one has to be a member to contribute, of course). I would be interested to hear general thoughts or thoughts related to the specific case described below. For example, I am currently working on an article/dissertation chapter about how the relationship between “language” and “culture” is changing for many American Indians who no longer speak their heritage languages. Specifically, I am trying point out the irony that while many people support language revitalization because they believe that “the language” is essential for “the culture,” revitalization efforts themselves often remove heritage languages from their traditional cultural contexts in an effort to make them more relevant to learners—for example, by coming up with Siouan calques for English idioms. After discussing some examples from the literature and my own experiences working with Jimm’s Ioway, Otoe-Missouria Language Project, I wanted to mention some of the reactions on the List to the recent request to translate “curiouser and curiouser” from *Alice in Wonderland*; specifically, I wanted to quote parts of Bryan’s, Jimm’s, and Willem’s responses. I am including an excerpt from the draft of the paper below to give some context, but the paragraph that includes information from the Siouan Listserv is the second to last one. Has a convention for citation and/or quotation already been established for the List? Are posts assumed to be citable and/or quotable unless otherwise stated? Do we expect someone wanting to cite and/or quote a post to contact the poster off-list to request permission before doing so? Etc.... All best, Saul Ironically, while efforts to revitalize heritage languages are often motivated by a belief that “the language” is an essential part of “the culture,” language revitalization itself often ends up separating codes from their traditionally associated cultural settings. David Samuels (2006), for example, discusses how conflicts between Apache traditionalists, who believe the language is too powerful for young speakers, and Christians, who believe the language is too un-Christian for their children, have narrowed the kind of language that can be taught in the community to object identification—in other words, children are learning a version of the language stripped of its indexical associations with traditional culture practices. But, as an Apache bilingual teacher wonders, if children are only learning how to use Apache to order a cheeseburger, what’s the point? (2006:551). M. Eleanor Nevins (2004) finds language classes are controversial in another Apache community because they fail to teach communicative competence, that is, social conventions for interaction that make particular codes culturally significant means of communication. Meeks reports similar developments in the Yukon, where educational routines used to teach Kaska in school settings conflict with Dene interactional conventions and language socialization ideologies. Furthermore, these educational routines “emphasiz[e] the referential aspect of language while downplaying all other indexical dimensions, and thereby diminish their sustainability as complex systems of and for communication” (2010:126). In their research on Pueblo groups in the Southwest, Debenport (xxxx) and Whiteley (xxxx) also found conflicts between language revitalization and cultural priorities. Many Tewas and Hopis believe that outsiders should not have access to their languages and thus oppose revitalization efforts that decontextualize codes from community-internal interpersonal interactions and recontextualize them in forms that can circulate beyond the community (e.g., online, in books, in schools attended by Navajo or other non-Pueblo children, etc.). By refusing to support such language revitalization efforts, community members are saying in effect that keeping their language private is more important to them than maintaining the code. Jocelyn Ahlers provides another example of how languages can become separated from their traditionally associated cultures in her description of how moribund languages are used to perform Native identities through memorized texts, a speech style she calls “Native Language as Identity Marker” (2006:62). She concludes that “this speech style adds to the body of evidence that language use is not indexical with cultural . . . identity, but rather performative of it” (2006:72). By this I understand her to mean that, unlike other kinds of code-switching, in this case a speaker sends a message about their identity by their code choice alone—what they are saying in the code refers to nothing outside itself (denotatively, indexically, or otherwise) because it is “code-switching, by a nonfluent speaker, to a noncomprehending audience” (2006:69). In the case of these memorized speeches, a code performs an identity without referring to anything cultural. Whiteley (2003:715) offers a similar interpretation of speeches by younger generations at Haida memorial potlatches, and the Dauenhauers note an analogous development in written Tlingit when those who have no or little knowledge of the language “use literacy for its decorative and symbolic effect or impression: for example, ‘Merry Christmas’ in Tlingit on corporate windows or Christmas cards” (1998:89). To draw from my own experience, the Ioway, Otoe-Missouria Language Project (IOMLP) makes a special effort to embed language in culturally significant contexts that are also applicable to modern day life. For example, the IOMLP designed and printed a tee shirt that includes a traditional floral design, a diagram representing the shared histories of the Iowa, Otoe-Missouria, and closely related Winnebago peoples (all labeled by their Chiwere endo- or exo-nyms), an image of an elder and a child wearing traditional ceremonial dance clothes, and a sentence in Chiwere that translates, ‘The language honors our elders and teaches our children.’Similarly, the IOMLP designed mugs that include the Chiwere phrase for ‘I love my coffee’ with the image of an Oneota-style ceramic vessel superimposed over a medicine wheel. While the IOMLP makes a special effort to embed language in culturally rich contexts, the Project is all too familiar with the opposite possibility: that traditional language can be used in contexts far removed from traditional cultural practices and values. The director of the Project often receives requests to calque English idioms, for example, “Go green!” (for a tribal environmental awareness program) or “I [heart icon] boobies!” (for breast cancer awareness bracelets). He has also been asked to provide Chiwere equivalents for terms from the video game *Halo*. These requests are met with ambivalence since they have no connection to traditional cultural practices or can even seem antithetical to them. For example, the request for “I [heart icon] boobies!” provoked a lesson on traditional attitudes toward body parts, body functions, and sexuality. And when I explained to the IOMLP what *Halo* is (a first-person shooter, i.e., rather violent, video game), the director expressed reservations that Chiwere language be associated with it at all. In some cases, then, indigenous languages can be used not just for cultural practices that are seen as untraditional (ordering a cheeseburger) but also anti-traditional (ones that promote dominant society attitudes toward sex, violence, etc.). This phenomenon is not limited to Chiwere, however, and many people involved in Siouan language documentation and revitalization receive similar requests. John Koontz, for example, received so many requests to translate stock English phrases as well as names for children and pets into Omaha-Ponca that he posted his general response to such questions on the FAQ section of his website. Once, he was even asked (presumably as a joke) for a Native American name for an RV; he responded in kind with *Hotanke*, an Anglicized spelling of the Dakotan word for ‘Winnebago’ (Winnebago is a popular brand of RV in the United States, much to the chagrin of the Winnebago Indians). Recently, a request appeared on the Siouan Listserv to translate a line from *Alice in Wonderland* (“curiouser and curiouser, cried Alice”) into various Siouan languages for some kind of polyglot compilation. While some found the intellectual challenge of translating a Victorian neologism into Siouan languages intriguing, others were less receptive to the request because of its perceived triviality and irrelevance to Native communities: “It’s a more distinguished request than pet names and such, but it’s not the kind of translation work I would prefer to spend my time on. Why don’t people ask us to translate Microsoft Word or a K-12 curriculum or something important?” and “I have other priorities and am unclear on the need for [a translation of] the particular quote from a story which has nothing in common with Native American culture. . . . To spend time on the translation of materials that have no immediate application to the language communities is nonsensical and, for my part, a waste of time.” One linguist shared his general guidelines for responding to such requests: “One has to pick and choose. If it is short and culturally appropriate, I generally agree to it. . . . Then other requests have to be nixed, like the set of ‘Spring Break’ phrases I once was asked to translate, things like ‘I am so drunk,’ and ‘Where is the bathroom?’” In short, while language revitalization seeks to expand opportunities for the continued use of heritage languages by making them seem more applicable to current social conditions, there is a danger that the codes may become disassociated from the traditional cultures that motivate their revitalization in the first place. If what we care about is not only preserving linguistic diversity (in the sense of grammatical structures) but also preserving distinctive *cultural* worldviews and lifeways by maintaining heritage languages, then we have won the battle while losing the war if people are only learning and using heritage languages to participate in the practices of the dominant society. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU Thu Apr 24 22:57:19 2014 From: linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU (Bryan James Gordon) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 15:57:19 -0700 Subject: citation/quotation conventions for list? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Saul, I've cited Siouan List messages a few times before, often because the List is the only place I can find the relevant claims or data in an easily accessible form. I certainly welcome having my own List messages cited. That being said, for academic venues we have to keep in mind that the List is not peer-reviewed in the ordinary sense, and it's hard to know how on- or off-the-record things are. I'd like to continue your conversation about the relationship between language and culture (and also take part more actively in other Siouan stuff like helping out with edited volumes), but right now I'm frantically trying to finish my comprehensive exams so I'll have to put that off until the conference. Keep up the good work! Bryan 2014-04-24 15:27 GMT-07:00 Saul Schwartz : > Dear all, > > > > I am wondering about the social conventions (stated or unstated) for > citing and/or quoting material from the Siouan Listserv. On the one hand, > the List is archived for anyone to view here ( > http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A0=SIOUAN), so it is in some > sense a public text. On the other hand, there is a strong sense of > community among members of the List, and I have a feeling that we sometimes > forget that we’re talking to each other in what is essentially a public > forum (in the sense that the public can listen in on our conversation; one > has to be a member to contribute, of course). I would be interested to hear > general thoughts or thoughts related to the specific case described below. > > > > For example, I am currently working on an article/dissertation chapter > about how the relationship between “language” and “culture” is changing for > many American Indians who no longer speak their heritage languages. > Specifically, I am trying point out the irony that while many people > support language revitalization because they believe that “the language” is > essential for “the culture,” revitalization efforts themselves often remove > heritage languages from their traditional cultural contexts in an effort to > make them more relevant to learners—for example, by coming up with Siouan > calques for English idioms. After discussing some examples from the > literature and my own experiences working with Jimm’s Ioway, Otoe-Missouria > Language Project, I wanted to mention some of the reactions on the List to > the recent request to translate “curiouser and curiouser” from *Alice in > Wonderland*; specifically, I wanted to quote parts of Bryan’s, Jimm’s, > and Willem’s responses. I am including an excerpt from the draft of the > paper below to give some context, but the paragraph that includes > information from the Siouan Listserv is the second to last one. > > > > Has a convention for citation and/or quotation already been established > for the List? Are posts assumed to be citable and/or quotable unless > otherwise stated? Do we expect someone wanting to cite and/or quote a post > to contact the poster off-list to request permission before doing so? > Etc.... > > > > All best, > > Saul > > > > Ironically, while efforts to revitalize heritage languages are often > motivated by a belief that “the language” is an essential part of “the > culture,” language revitalization itself often ends up separating codes > from their traditionally associated cultural settings. David Samuels > (2006), for example, discusses how conflicts between Apache > traditionalists, who believe the language is too powerful for young > speakers, and Christians, who believe the language is too un-Christian for > their children, have narrowed the kind of language that can be taught in > the community to object identification—in other words, children are > learning a version of the language stripped of its indexical associations > with traditional culture practices. But, as an Apache bilingual teacher > wonders, if children are only learning how to use Apache to order a > cheeseburger, what’s the point? (2006:551). M. Eleanor Nevins (2004) finds > language classes are controversial in another Apache community because they > fail to teach communicative competence, that is, social conventions for > interaction that make particular codes culturally significant means of > communication. > > > Meeks reports similar developments in the Yukon, where educational > routines used to teach Kaska in school settings conflict with Dene > interactional conventions and language socialization ideologies. > Furthermore, these educational routines “emphasiz[e] the referential aspect > of language while downplaying all other indexical dimensions, and thereby > diminish their sustainability as complex systems of and for communication” > (2010:126). > > > In their research on Pueblo groups in the Southwest, Debenport (xxxx) and > Whiteley (xxxx) also found conflicts between language revitalization and > cultural priorities. Many Tewas and Hopis believe that outsiders should not > have access to their languages and thus oppose revitalization efforts that > decontextualize codes from community-internal interpersonal interactions > and recontextualize them in forms that can circulate beyond the community > (e.g., online, in books, in schools attended by Navajo or other non-Pueblo > children, etc.). By refusing to support such language revitalization > efforts, community members are saying in effect that keeping their language > private is more important to them than maintaining the code. > > > Jocelyn Ahlers provides another example of how languages can become > separated from their traditionally associated cultures in her description > of how moribund languages are used to perform Native identities through > memorized texts, a speech style she calls “Native Language as Identity > Marker” (2006:62). She concludes that “this speech style adds to the body > of evidence that language use is not indexical with cultural . . . > identity, but rather performative of it” (2006:72). By this I understand > her to mean that, unlike other kinds of code-switching, in this case a > speaker sends a message about their identity by their code choice > alone—what they are saying in the code refers to nothing outside itself > (denotatively, indexically, or otherwise) because it is “code-switching, by > a nonfluent speaker, to a noncomprehending audience” (2006:69). In the case > of these memorized speeches, a code performs an identity without referring > to anything cultural. Whiteley (2003:715) offers a similar interpretation > of speeches by younger generations at Haida memorial potlatches, and the > Dauenhauers note an analogous development in written Tlingit when those who > have no or little knowledge of the language “use literacy for its > decorative and symbolic effect or impression: for example, ‘Merry > Christmas’ in Tlingit on corporate windows or Christmas cards” (1998:89). > > > To draw from my own experience, the Ioway, Otoe-Missouria Language Project > (IOMLP) makes a special effort to embed language in culturally significant > contexts that are also applicable to modern day life. For example, the > IOMLP designed and printed a tee shirt that includes a traditional floral > design, a diagram representing the shared histories of the Iowa, > Otoe-Missouria, and closely related Winnebago peoples (all labeled by their > Chiwere endo- or exo-nyms), an image of an elder and a child wearing > traditional ceremonial dance clothes, and a sentence in Chiwere that > translates, ‘The language honors our elders and teaches our children.’Similarly, the IOMLP designed mugs that include the Chiwere phrase for ‘I > love my coffee’ with the image of an Oneota-style ceramic vessel > superimposed over a medicine wheel. > > > While the IOMLP makes a special effort to embed language in culturally > rich contexts, the Project is all too familiar with the opposite > possibility: that traditional language can be used in contexts far removed > from traditional cultural practices and values. The director of the Project > often receives requests to calque English idioms, for example, “Go green!” > (for a tribal environmental awareness program) or “I [heart icon] boobies!” > (for breast cancer awareness bracelets). He has also been asked to provide > Chiwere equivalents for terms from the video game *Halo*. These requests > are met with ambivalence since they have no connection to traditional > cultural practices or can even seem antithetical to them. For example, the > request for “I [heart icon] boobies!” provoked a lesson on traditional > attitudes toward body parts, body functions, and sexuality. And when I > explained to the IOMLP what *Halo* is (a first-person shooter, i.e., > rather violent, video game), the director expressed reservations that > Chiwere language be associated with it at all. In some cases, then, > indigenous languages can be used not just for cultural practices that are > seen as untraditional (ordering a cheeseburger) but also anti-traditional > (ones that promote dominant society attitudes toward sex, violence, etc.). > > > This phenomenon is not limited to Chiwere, however, and many people > involved in Siouan language documentation and revitalization receive > similar requests. John Koontz, for example, received so many requests to > translate stock English phrases as well as names for children and pets into > Omaha-Ponca that he posted his general response to such questions on the > FAQ section of his website. Once, he was even asked (presumably as a joke) > for a Native American name for an RV; he responded in kind with *Hotanke*, > an Anglicized spelling of the Dakotan word for ‘Winnebago’ (Winnebago is a > popular brand of RV in the United States, much to the chagrin of the > Winnebago Indians). > > > Recently, a request appeared on the Siouan Listserv to translate a line > from *Alice in Wonderland* (“curiouser and curiouser, cried Alice”) into > various Siouan languages for some kind of polyglot compilation. While some > found the intellectual challenge of translating a Victorian neologism into > Siouan languages intriguing, others were less receptive to the request > because of its perceived triviality and irrelevance to Native communities: > “It’s a more distinguished request than pet names and such, but it’s not > the kind of translation work I would prefer to spend my time on. Why don’t > people ask us to translate Microsoft Word or a K-12 curriculum or something > important?” and “I have other priorities and am unclear on the need for [a > translation of] the particular quote from a story which has nothing in > common with Native American culture. . . . To spend time on the translation > of materials that have no immediate application to the language communities > is nonsensical and, for my part, a waste of time.” One linguist shared his > general guidelines for responding to such requests: “One has to pick and > choose. If it is short and culturally appropriate, I generally agree to it. > . . . Then other requests have to be nixed, like the set of ‘Spring Break’ > phrases I once was asked to translate, things like ‘I am so drunk,’ and > ‘Where is the bathroom?’” > > > In short, while language revitalization seeks to expand opportunities for > the continued use of heritage languages by making them seem more applicable > to current social conditions, there is a danger that the codes may become > disassociated from the traditional cultures that motivate their > revitalization in the first place. If what we care about is not only > preserving linguistic diversity (in the sense of grammatical structures) > but also preserving distinctive *cultural* worldviews and lifeways by > maintaining heritage languages, then we have won the battle while losing > the war if people are only learning and using heritage languages to > participate in the practices of the dominant society. > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's > DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from > Yahoo.com -- *********************************************************** Bryan James Gordon, MA Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology University of Arizona *********************************************************** -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From carudin1 at WSC.EDU Fri Apr 25 02:21:55 2014 From: carudin1 at WSC.EDU (Catherine Rudin) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 21:21:55 -0500 Subject: citation/quotation conventions for list? Message-ID: I also have cited List messages on occasion, though I think only in pretty informal contexts like conference presentations. As you point out, Saul, it is a public text, and I think it's legit to cite it the same way you would cite any online resource. Perhaps it's good for us all to remind ourselves that everything we write to the List IS not only public but permanently archived... C. >>> Bryan James Gordon 04/24/14 5:59 PM >>> Hi Saul, I've cited Siouan List messages a few times before, often because the List is the only place I can find the relevant claims or data in an easily accessible form. I certainly welcome having my own List messages cited. That being said, for academic venues we have to keep in mind that the List is not peer-reviewed in the ordinary sense, and it's hard to know how on- or off-the-record things are. I'd like to continue your conversation about the relationship between language and culture (and also take part more actively in other Siouan stuff like helping out with edited volumes), but right now I'm frantically trying to finish my comprehensive exams so I'll have to put that off until the conference. Keep up the good work! Bryan 2014-04-24 15:27 GMT-07:00 Saul Schwartz : Dear all, I am wonderingabout the social conventions (stated or unstated) for citing and/or quotingmaterial from the Siouan Listserv. On the one hand, the List is archived foranyone to view here (http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A0=SIOUAN),so it is in some sense a public text. On the other hand, there is a strongsense of community among members of the List, and I have a feeling that we sometimesforget that we’re talking to each other in what is essentially a public forum(in the sense that the public can listen in on our conversation; one has to bea member to contribute, of course). I would be interested to hear generalthoughts or thoughts related to the specific case described below. For example, I amcurrently working on an article/dissertation chapter about how the relationshipbetween “language” and “culture” is changing for many American Indians who nolonger speak their heritage languages. Specifically, I am trying point out theirony that while many people support language revitalization because theybelieve that “the language” is essential for “the culture,” revitalizationefforts themselves often remove heritage languages from their traditional culturalcontexts in an effort to make them more relevant to learners—for example, by comingup with Siouan calques for English idioms. After discussing some examples fromthe literature and my own experiences working with Jimm’s Ioway, Otoe-MissouriaLanguage Project, I wanted to mention some of the reactions on the List to the recentrequest to translate “curiouser and curiouser” from Alice in Wonderland; specifically, I wanted to quote parts ofBryan’s, Jimm’s, and Willem’s responses. I am including an excerpt from the draftof the paper below to give some context, but the paragraph that includes informationfrom the Siouan Listserv is the second to last one. Has a conventionfor citation and/or quotation already been established for the List? Are postsassumed to be citable and/or quotable unless otherwise stated? Do we expect someonewanting to cite and/or quote a post to contact the poster off-list to requestpermission before doing so? Etc.... All best, Saul Ironically,while efforts to revitalize heritage languages are often motivated by a beliefthat “the language” is an essential part of “the culture,” languagerevitalization itself often ends up separating codes from their traditionallyassociated cultural settings. David Samuels (2006), for example, discusses howconflicts between Apache traditionalists, who believe the language is toopowerful for young speakers, and Christians, who believe the language is tooun-Christian for their children, have narrowed the kind of language that can betaught in the community to obarelearning a version of the language stripped of its indexical associations withtraditional culture practices. But, as an Apache bilingual teacher wonders, ifchildren are only learning how to use Apache to order a cheeseburger, what’sthe point? (2006:551). M. Eleanor Nevins (2004) finds language classes arecontroversial in another Apache community because they fail to teachcommunicative competence, that is, social conventions for interaction that makeparticular codes culturally significant means of communication. Meeksreports similar developments in the Yukon, where educational routines used toteach Kaska in school settings conflict with Dene interactional conventions andlanguage socialization ideologies. Furthermore, these educational routines“emphasiz[e] the referential aspect of language while downplaying all otherindexical dimensions, and thereby diminish their sustainability as complexsystems of and for communication” (2010:126). Intheir research on Pueblo groups in the Southwest, Debenport (xxxx) and Whiteley (xxxx) also found conflictsbetween language revitalization and cultural priorities. Many Tewas and Hopisbelieve that outsiders should not have access to their languages and thusoppose revitalization efforts that decontextualize codes fromcommunity-internal interpersonal interactions and recontextualize them in formsthat can circulate beyond the community (e.g., online, in books, in schoolsattended by Navajo or other non-Pueblo children, etc.). By refusing to supportsuch language revitalization efforts, community members are saying in effectthat keeping their language private is more important to them than maintainingthe code. JocelynAhlers provides another example of how languages can become separated fromtheir traditionally associated cultures in her description of how moribundlanguages are used to perform Native identities through memorized texts, aspeech style she calls “Native Language as Identity Marker” (2006:62). Sheconcludes that “this speech style adds to the body of evidence that languageuse is not indexical with cultural . . . identity, but rather performative ofit” (2006:72). By this I understand her to mean that, unlike other kinds ofcode-switching, in this case a speaker sends a message about their identity bytheir code choice alone—what they are saying in the code refers to nothingoutside itself (denotatively, indexically, or otherwise) because it is“code-switching, by a nonfluent speaker, to a noncomprehending audience”(2006:69). In the case of these memorized speeches, a code performs an identitywithout referring to anything cultural. Whiteley (2003:715) offers a similarinterpretation of speeches by younger generations at Haida memorial potlatches,and the Dauenhauers note an analogous development in written Tlingit when thosewho have no or little knowledge of the language “use literacy for itsdecorative and symbolic effect or impression: for example, ‘Merry Christmas’ inTlingit on corporate windows or Christmas cards” (1998:89). Todraw from my own experience, the Ioway, Otoe-Missouria Language Project (IOMLP)makes a special effort to embed language in culturally significant contextsthat are also applicable to modern day life. For example, the IOMLP designedand printed a tee shirt that includes a traditional floral design, a diagramrepresenting the shared histories of the Iowa, Otoe-Missouria, and closelyrelated Winnebago peoples (all labeled by their Chiwere endo- or exo-nyms), animage of an elder and a child wearing traditional ceremonial dance clothes, anda sentence in Chiwere that translates, ‘The language honors our elders and teaches ourchildren.’ Similarly, theIOMLP designed mugs that include the Chiwere phrase for ‘I love my coffee’ withthe image of an Oneota-style ceramic vessel superimposed over a medicine wheel. Whilethe IOMLP makes a special effort to embed language in culturally rich contexts,the Project is all too familiar with the opposite possibility: that tradremoved from traditional culturalpractices and values. The director of the Project often receives requests to calqueEnglish idioms, for example, “Go green!” (for a tribal environmental awarenessprogram) or “I [heart icon] boobies!” (for breast cancer awareness bracelets).He has also been asked to provide Chiwere equivalents for terms from the videogame Halo. These requests are metwith ambivalence since they have no connection to traditional culturalpractices or can even seem antithetical to them. For example, the request for“I [heart icon] boobies!” provoked a lesson on traditional attitudes towardbody parts, body functions, and sexuality. And when I explained to the IOMLPwhat Halo is (a first-person shooter,i.e., rather violent, video game), the director expressed reservations thatChiwere language be associated with it at all. In some cases, then, indigenous languagescan be used not just for cultural practices that are seen as untraditional(ordering a cheeseburger) but also anti-traditional (ones that promote dominantsociety attitudes toward sex, violence, etc.). Thisphenomenon is not limited to Chiwere, however, and many people involved inSiouan language documentation and revitalization receive similar requests. JohnKoontz, for example, received so many requests to translate stock English phrasesas well as names for children and pets into Omaha-Ponca that he posted hisgeneral response to such questions on the FAQ section of his website. Once, hewas even asked (presumably as a joke) for a Native American name for an RV; heresponded in kind with Hotanke, anAnglicized spelling of the Dakotan word for ‘Winnebago’ (Winnebago is a popularbrand of RV in the United States, much to the chagrin of the Winnebago Indians). Recently,a request appeared on the Siouan Listserv to translate a line from Alice in Wonderland (“curiouser andcuriouser, cried Alice”) into various Siouan languages for some kind ofpolyglot compilation. While some found the intellectual challenge oftranslating a Victorian neologism into Siouan languages intriguing, others wereless receptive to the request because of its perceived triviality andirrelevance to Native communities: “It’s a more distinguished request than petnames and such, but it’s not the kind of translation work I would prefer tospend my time on. Why don’t people ask us to translate Microsoft Word or a K-12curriculum or something important?” and “I have other priorities and am unclearon the need for [a translation of] the particular quote from a story which hasnothing in common with Native American culture. . . . To spend time on thetranslation of materials that have no immediate application to the languagecommunities is nonsensical and, for my part, a waste of time.” One linguistshared his general guidelines for responding to such requests: “One has to pick and choose. If it is short and culturallyappropriate, I generally agree to it. . . . Then other requests have to benixed, like the set of ‘Spring Break’ phrases I once was asked to translate,things like ‘I am so drunk,’ and ‘Where is the bathroom?’” Inshort, while language revitalization seeks to expand opportunities for thecontinued use of heritage languages by making them seem more applicable tocurrent social conditions, there is a danger that the codes may becomedisassociated from the traditional cultures that motivate their revitalizationin the first place. If what we care about is not only preserving linguisticdiversity (in the sense of grammatical structures) but also preservingdistinctive cultural worldviews andlifeways by maintaining heritage languages, then we have won the battle whilelosing the war if people are only learning and using heritage languages toparticipate in the practices of the dominant society. --Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu.Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- **************************************Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology University of Arizona *********************************************************** --Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu.Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jfu at LAKHOTA.ORG Fri Apr 25 13:02:48 2014 From: jfu at LAKHOTA.ORG (Jan Ullrich) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2014 15:02:48 +0200 Subject: citation/quotation conventions for list? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Saul, I was intrigued by your paper and would like to make a few comments. I am not an anthropologist, so take some of my remark about culture as those of a lay person. But I have been involved with language documentation and revitalization efforts for a while and I would like to make a few comments based on my experience. >>> In short, while language revitalization seeks to expand opportunities for the continued use of heritage languages by making them seem more applicable to current social conditions, there is a danger that the codes may become disassociated from the traditional cultures that motivate their revitalization in the first place. It is true that learners commonly associate words from their respective heritage languages with their “modern/non-traditional” interpretations of cultural concepts. And for this reason revitalization efforts should strive to teach the language not only as a set of dry grammar rules but as a system of culturally motivated behavior, worldview and lifestyle. In this way language revitalization goes hand-in-hand with the revival of various aspects of the traditional culture. But in my experience this is often over-done because of unreasonable expectations as to the extent of the cultural revival and as to what is applicable in the contemporary tribal society. I remember about 11 years ago when we were working on the textbook and curriculum for the first grade and one of the native speakers involved said that the book should not teach classroom vocabulary (such as pen, book, computer) because these things are not a part of traditional Lakota culture. The speaker suggested that the book should introduce exclusively words for items and concepts from the traditional (i.e. pre-reservation) culture, such as words for bow, arrows, ceremonies etc. Such expectations are based on a very static view of culture and they result in teaching a language that cannot be used for everyday communication. Obviously, the children do not grow up in pre-reservation culture, their cultural reality is very different and they are only going to be motivated to use the language if they can use it within the context of their own reality. If they learn to speak Lakota (with a good level of understanding of the traditional meanings embedded in the language) then indeed this alone represents a major component of their Lakota identity. If not, then it would be possible to claim that, for instance, the 21st century French are not French because they have a very different lifestyle and worldview than the French in the 19th century. Indeed, the ability to speak French is a major part of French identity and there are a large number of worldviews and lifestyles among modern French people. There are probably a lot of traditional (archaic) aspects of French culture that some French people know or practice, but many others do not. Are they less French? Similarly, contemporary members of the Native American tribes no longer live in a uniform culture (if it ever was uniform). In Lakota language classes today, there are tribal members with highly varying backgrounds (in term of their believes, lifestyles and worldviews). They all want to learn Lakota because they feel it is an important part of their heritage and identity. But the extent to which they want to adopt or participate in other aspects of traditional culture varies significantly. >>> If what we care about is not only preserving linguistic diversity (in the sense of grammatical structures) but also preserving distinctive cultural worldviews and lifeways by maintaining heritage languages, then we have won the battle while losing the war if people are only learning and using heritage languages to participate in the practices of the dominant society. I could be wrong, but what I am reading in your text, is that the only correct way to revitalize a Native American language is to use it exclusively in context of traditional culture. To me it is a flawed expectation. For any language to survive it has to serve the communicative needs of the society that speaks it. The language should be an important vehicle for the revitalization and preservation of various aspects of traditional culture, but the language also has to claim new territories. Your paper makes it sound as if it is an either or situation. Why can’t it be both? I would argue that we can easily find a connection between “Go green” and traditional cultural practices. Among the Lakota there is a group of people who started a movement towards abandoning the use of Styrofoam dishes in public feasts and ceremonies, and replacing them with traditional wooden bowls that Lakota people used to carry on them wherever they went. I think this is a great example of how a modern environmental awareness can be connected with traditional practices. The reason why some traditionalists may interpret “Go green” as non-traditional is a poor translation. If we use a fitting idiomatic translation instead of a calque, the term may become more palatable or even viewed as traditional. In my experience there is a discrepancy between how native speakers portray their language and its role, and how they use it in real life. In a formal setting (in an interview or before an audience) native speakers always emphasize that the language is sacred, that it cannot be used in a negative way, to hurt anyone’s feelings, that there are no vulgar words etc. This is an important teaching about cultural values and culturally proper behavior, but the problem is that these things are attributed to the language, rather than to people’s manners. I don’t think that in societies with thriving language these values are normally attributed to a language. I can’t imagine an English (or Spanish) speaker teaching an audience about what the English language can and cannot be used for; e.g. “children, we don’t use English to say this or that because it is impolite” - instead I would expect something like “children, it is not polite to say this or that”, or “It is not nice to make such and such remarks” etc). And of course, correct behavior and language use are more often taught by example than by description. Contrary to how native speakers talk about the heritage language formally, in informal settings a heritage language is used for just about any of those things we know from other languages, in all kinds of registers, using varying layers of the lexicon, in all kinds of contexts, for teasing, joking, for harmless (or harmful) gossip, for impertinent remarks or jokes and so on. To me the problem is that a good percentage of native speakers and some linguists have a tendency to idealize the language and elevate it to something almost untouchable (sacred), something that has to be kept immaculate and must not be defiled by incorrect use. The result, in my experience, is that many learners are afraid to use the language in front of their elders because they fear they will use it incorrectly. In my experience it is often the case that native speakers and learners spend significantly more time discussing (in English!) how the heritage language should or shouldn’t be used, instead of spending time on actually using it. Such discussions don’t contribute to language proficiency and in fact they can be counter-productive because they create unreasonable obstacles for learners. I believe that language revitalization efforts ought to take the focus away from such discussions and replace them with effective language teaching that focuses on developing both fluency and accuracy, as well as awareness of the cultural features reflected in the language. All of this can, and should, be done in the target language. It is my understanding that the various translation request you mention are almost exclusively made by people who are not active learners of the respective languages and often by people who are not even involved with language revitalization. As such, I would consider them more or less irrelevant in the discussion of language revitalization efforts. Jan From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Saul Schwartz Sent: Friday, April 25, 2014 12:27 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: citation/quotation conventions for list? Dear all, I am wondering about the social conventions (stated or unstated) for citing and/or quoting material from the Siouan Listserv. On the one hand, the List is archived for anyone to view here (http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A0=SIOUAN), so it is in some sense a public text. On the other hand, there is a strong sense of community among members of the List, and I have a feeling that we sometimes forget that we’re talking to each other in what is essentially a public forum (in the sense that the public can listen in on our conversation; one has to be a member to contribute, of course). I would be interested to hear general thoughts or thoughts related to the specific case described below. For example, I am currently working on an article/dissertation chapter about how the relationship between “language” and “culture” is changing for many American Indians who no longer speak their heritage languages. Specifically, I am trying point out the irony that while many people support language revitalization because they believe that “the language” is essential for “the culture,” revitalization efforts themselves often remove heritage languages from their traditional cultural contexts in an effort to make them more relevant to learners—for example, by coming up with Siouan calques for English idioms. After discussing some examples from the literature and my own experiences working with Jimm’s Ioway, Otoe-Missouria Language Project, I wanted to mention some of the reactions on the List to the recent request to translate “curiouser and curiouser” from Alice in Wonderland; specifically, I wanted to quote parts of Bryan’s, Jimm’s, and Willem’s responses. I am including an excerpt from the draft of the paper below to give some context, but the paragraph that includes information from the Siouan Listserv is the second to last one. Has a convention for citation and/or quotation already been established for the List? Are posts assumed to be citable and/or quotable unless otherwise stated? Do we expect someone wanting to cite and/or quote a post to contact the poster off-list to request permission before doing so? Etc.... All best, Saul Ironically, while efforts to revitalize heritage languages are often motivated by a belief that “the language” is an essential part of “the culture,” language revitalization itself often ends up separating codes from their traditionally associated cultural settings. David Samuels (2006), for example, discusses how conflicts between Apache traditionalists, who believe the language is too powerful for young speakers, and Christians, who believe the language is too un-Christian for their children, have narrowed the kind of language that can be taught in the community to object identification—in other words, children are learning a version of the language stripped of its indexical associations with traditional culture practices. But, as an Apache bilingual teacher wonders, if children are only learning how to use Apache to order a cheeseburger, what’s the point? (2006:551). M. Eleanor Nevins (2004) finds language classes are controversial in another Apache community because they fail to teach communicative competence, that is, social conventions for interaction that make particular codes culturally significant means of communication. Meeks reports similar developments in the Yukon, where educational routines used to teach Kaska in school settings conflict with Dene interactional conventions and language socialization ideologies. Furthermore, these educational routines “emphasiz[e] the referential aspect of language while downplaying all other indexical dimensions, and thereby diminish their sustainability as complex systems of and for communication” (2010:126). In their research on Pueblo groups in the Southwest, Debenport (xxxx) and Whiteley (xxxx) also found conflicts between language revitalization and cultural priorities. Many Tewas and Hopis believe that outsiders should not have access to their languages and thus oppose revitalization efforts that decontextualize codes from community-internal interpersonal interactions and recontextualize them in forms that can circulate beyond the community (e.g., online, in books, in schools attended by Navajo or other non-Pueblo children, etc.). By refusing to support such language revitalization efforts, community members are saying in effect that keeping their language private is more important to them than maintaining the code. Jocelyn Ahlers provides another example of how languages can become separated from their traditionally associated cultures in her description of how moribund languages are used to perform Native identities through memorized texts, a speech style she calls “Native Language as Identity Marker” (2006:62). She concludes that “this speech style adds to the body of evidence that language use is not indexical with cultural . . . identity, but rather performative of it” (2006:72). By this I understand her to mean that, unlike other kinds of code-switching, in this case a speaker sends a message about their identity by their code choice alone—what they are saying in the code refers to nothing outside itself (denotatively, indexically, or otherwise) because it is “code-switching, by a nonfluent speaker, to a noncomprehending audience” (2006:69). In the case of these memorized speeches, a code performs an identity without referring to anything cultural. Whiteley (2003:715) offers a similar interpretation of speeches by younger generations at Haida memorial potlatches, and the Dauenhauers note an analogous development in written Tlingit when those who have no or little knowledge of the language “use literacy for its decorative and symbolic effect or impression: for example, ‘Merry Christmas’ in Tlingit on corporate windows or Christmas cards” (1998:89). To draw from my own experience, the Ioway, Otoe-Missouria Language Project (IOMLP) makes a special effort to embed language in culturally significant contexts that are also applicable to modern day life. For example, the IOMLP designed and printed a tee shirt that includes a traditional floral design, a diagram representing the shared histories of the Iowa, Otoe-Missouria, and closely related Winnebago peoples (all labeled by their Chiwere endo- or exo-nyms), an image of an elder and a child wearing traditional ceremonial dance clothes, and a sentence in Chiwere that translates, ‘The language honors our elders and teaches our children.’ Similarly, the IOMLP designed mugs that include the Chiwere phrase for ‘I love my coffee’ with the image of an Oneota-style ceramic vessel superimposed over a medicine wheel. While the IOMLP makes a special effort to embed language in culturally rich contexts, the Project is all too familiar with the opposite possibility: that traditional language can be used in contexts far removed from traditional cultural practices and values. The director of the Project often receives requests to calque English idioms, for example, “Go green!” (for a tribal environmental awareness program) or “I [heart icon] boobies!” (for breast cancer awareness bracelets). He has also been asked to provide Chiwere equivalents for terms from the video game Halo. These requests are met with ambivalence since they have no connection to traditional cultural practices or can even seem antithetical to them. For example, the request for “I [heart icon] boobies!” provoked a lesson on traditional attitudes toward body parts, body functions, and sexuality. And when I explained to the IOMLP what Halo is (a first-person shooter, i.e., rather violent, video game), the director expressed reservations that Chiwere language be associated with it at all. In some cases, then, indigenous languages can be used not just for cultural practices that are seen as untraditional (ordering a cheeseburger) but also anti-traditional (ones that promote dominant society attitudes toward sex, violence, etc.). This phenomenon is not limited to Chiwere, however, and many people involved in Siouan language documentation and revitalization receive similar requests. John Koontz, for example, received so many requests to translate stock English phrases as well as names for children and pets into Omaha-Ponca that he posted his general response to such questions on the FAQ section of his website. Once, he was even asked (presumably as a joke) for a Native American name for an RV; he responded in kind with Hotanke, an Anglicized spelling of the Dakotan word for ‘Winnebago’ (Winnebago is a popular brand of RV in the United States, much to the chagrin of the Winnebago Indians). Recently, a request appeared on the Siouan Listserv to translate a line from Alice in Wonderland (“curiouser and curiouser, cried Alice”) into various Siouan languages for some kind of polyglot compilation. While some found the intellectual challenge of translating a Victorian neologism into Siouan languages intriguing, others were less receptive to the request because of its perceived triviality and irrelevance to Native communities: “It’s a more distinguished request than pet names and such, but it’s not the kind of translation work I would prefer to spend my time on. Why don’t people ask us to translate Microsoft Word or a K-12 curriculum or something important?” and “I have other priorities and am unclear on the need for [a translation of] the particular quote from a story which has nothing in common with Native American culture. . . . To spend time on the translation of materials that have no immediate application to the language communities is nonsensical and, for my part, a waste of time.” One linguist shared his general guidelines for responding to such requests: “One has to pick and choose. If it is short and culturally appropriate, I generally agree to it. . . . Then other requests have to be nixed, like the set of ‘Spring Break’ phrases I once was asked to translate, things like ‘I am so drunk,’ and ‘Where is the bathroom?’” In short, while language revitalization seeks to expand opportunities for the continued use of heritage languages by making them seem more applicable to current social conditions, there is a danger that the codes may become disassociated from the traditional cultures that motivate their revitalization in the first place. If what we care about is not only preserving linguistic diversity (in the sense of grammatical structures) but also preserving distinctive cultural worldviews and lifeways by maintaining heritage languages, then we have won the battle while losing the war if people are only learning and using heritage languages to participate in the practices of the dominant society. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU Fri Apr 25 15:52:32 2014 From: WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU (De Reuse, Willem) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2014 15:52:32 +0000 Subject: Saul and Jan's discussion In-Reply-To: <00df01cf6086$a8b4f770$fa1ee650$@org> Message-ID: Thank you very, Saul and Jan, for this interesting discussion. This points to a serious problem in many language revitalization contexts. Re: Saul, the reason why I object to translating "Spring break phrases" is not, obviously, because we do not need to know the (many!) ways one can say "I am so drunk" and "where is the bathroom?" , it is just that I do not want such things to end up as "curiosities" in some sleazy men's magazine. Of course, if some speakers of an indigenous language wanted to start a sleazy men's magazine in THEIR OWN language and discuss such things, that is entirely the business of the native community. It is all about us outside linguists not helping the jokers out there in trivializing indigenous languages. Re: Jan. Excellent points, I think most of us will agree. The issue not only concerns what sort of language one should teach, but also the shape and format of the pedagogical materials. I recently showed your Lakota children's textbook to a (non-Siouan speaking) language revitalization committee, and one (non-native) colleague (who shall remain unnamed) pointed out: "we cannot do that here, the elders think that such manuals with color pictures are disrespectful to the language, we need to use traditional ways, without color pictures". I bit my lip. Have you heard such objections to your textbooks from Lakota speakers? My view is we do need colorful pictures for children, other methods for adults. You teach French to children with color pictures, but you do not teach Racine and Voltaire to adults with colorful pictures... -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.rood at COLORADO.EDU Fri Apr 25 17:06:05 2014 From: david.rood at COLORADO.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2014 11:06:05 -0600 Subject: citation/quotation conventions for list? In-Reply-To: <00df01cf6086$a8b4f770$fa1ee650$@org> Message-ID: This message is primarily addressed to Jan and Saul, and it combines the issues raised in Saul's chapter (and Jan's reply) with the question Saul originally raised. I haven't repeated the thread here -- see Jan's recent message for that. There is considerable interest here in these issues of the appropriate goals and methods -- e.g. use of web-based technologies -- for language revitalization, and what Jan and Saul say would be of interest to some of my colleagues and students who don't work with Siouan languages. Would it be appropriate for me to forward your comments to them? If so, how would you like to be acknowledged if they decide to repeat your observations? Best, David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com From jfu at LAKHOTA.ORG Fri Apr 25 18:09:50 2014 From: jfu at LAKHOTA.ORG (Jan Ullrich) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2014 20:09:50 +0200 Subject: Saul and Jan's discussion In-Reply-To: <1398441168923.94560@my.unt.edu> Message-ID: >> Re: Jan. Excellent points, I think most of us will agree. >> The issue not only concerns what sort of language one should teach, but >> also the shape and format of the pedagogical materials. >>> I recently showed your Lakota children's textbook to a (non-Siouan speaking) >> language revitalization committee, and one (non-native) >> colleague (who shall remain unnamed) pointed out: >> "we cannot do that here, the elders think that such manuals with color >> pictures are disrespectful to the language, we need to use traditional ways, >> without color pictures". I bit my lip. Have you heard such objections to your >> textbooks from Lakota speakers? My view is we do need colorful pictures for children, >> other methods for adults. You teach French to children >> with color pictures, but you do not teach Racine and Voltaire to adults with colorful pictures... Willem As far as I can tell the color illustrations are welcome as a positive aspect of the teaching materials. I don't recall hearing criticism of the illustrations from native speakers, on the contrary. But I remember an incident that is very much in line with the experience you describe above: it was during one of the teacher trainings when we were introducing the native teachers to various types of games designed for teaching language in a fun, motivating and age appropriate ways; during the class one of the native speakers said the following: "we cannot use games in language classes because the language is sacred". This illustrates the level to which some of the heritage language became disassociated from their normal function, which is everyday communication in all contexts and situations. In my opinion this is very much the result of emphasizing the sacredness and describing those languages as something that is associated only with ceremonial and spiritual contexts. It is true that this is the context in which the language is most commonly heard by non-speakers today, but in those are families and communities where Lakota is still spoken for everyday communication, it is indeed used in a number of different contexts as well. Jan -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jfu at LAKHOTA.ORG Fri Apr 25 18:41:19 2014 From: jfu at LAKHOTA.ORG (Jan Ullrich) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2014 20:41:19 +0200 Subject: citation/quotation conventions for list? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David, Feel free to forward my comments to anyone. They can cite my email to the Siouan list on 4/25/2014. Jan -----Original Message----- From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of ROOD DAVID S Sent: Friday, April 25, 2014 7:06 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: citation/quotation conventions for list? This message is primarily addressed to Jan and Saul, and it combines the issues raised in Saul's chapter (and Jan's reply) with the question Saul originally raised. I haven't repeated the thread here -- see Jan's recent message for that. There is considerable interest here in these issues of the appropriate goals and methods -- e.g. use of web-based technologies -- for language revitalization, and what Jan and Saul say would be of interest to some of my colleagues and students who don't work with Siouan languages. Would it be appropriate for me to forward your comments to them? If so, how would you like to be acknowledged if they decide to repeat your observations? Best, David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com From sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU Fri Apr 25 18:51:37 2014 From: sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU (Saul Schwartz) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2014 12:51:37 -0600 Subject: citation/quotation conventions for list? In-Reply-To: <018c01cf60b5$f32ddd10$d9899730$@org> Message-ID: Dear David, Touché. Sure, feel free to forward my post. Personally, I think of the List as a kind of public archive---I'm just not sure if everyone feels that way or not. Thus, in my opinion, people could cite posts just as they would anything they found online, e.g., name, date, title, link, whatever the style manual they're using requires. If, on the other hand, the convention is to check with someone before citing/quoting, then they may prefer some other arrangement---for example, they may be ok with being quoted but don't want their name to be cited. It occurs to me, though, that in the draft of my paper, I didn't name names nor did I check with Bryan, Jimm, and Willem beforehand to see if they wanted to be credited or remain anonymous. So, that is clearly *not* an ethical option. Unless a consensus emerges that members see the List as a kind of public archive (which is de facto what it is since it is archived online where anyone can access it), I will treat communication on the List as I would emails between colleagues (which is what it usually feels like) and therefore contact posters individually to request permission to cite/quote. All best, Saul On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 12:41 PM, Jan Ullrich wrote: > David, > > Feel free to forward my comments to anyone. They can cite my email to the > Siouan list on 4/25/2014. > > Jan > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of > ROOD > DAVID S > Sent: Friday, April 25, 2014 7:06 PM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Re: citation/quotation conventions for list? > > This message is primarily addressed to Jan and Saul, and it combines the > issues raised in Saul's chapter (and Jan's reply) with the question Saul > originally raised. I haven't repeated the thread here -- see Jan's recent > message for that. > > There is considerable interest here in these issues of the appropriate > goals > and methods -- e.g. use of web-based technologies -- for language > revitalization, and what Jan and Saul say would be of interest to some of > my > colleagues and students who don't work with Siouan languages. Would it be > appropriate for me to forward your comments to them? If so, how would you > like to be acknowledged if they decide to repeat your observations? > > Best, > David > > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > -- > Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. > Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming > email from Yahoo.com > > -- > Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. > Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept > incoming email from Yahoo.com > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Fri Apr 25 19:05:35 2014 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Greer, Jill) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2014 19:05:35 +0000 Subject: citation/quotation conventions for list? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello all, You may have already seen this since it was covered on NBC and the Wall Street Journal, but since it involves many of our Siouan tribal peoples, and our heartland also, here is a link about the current Cowboy-Indian Alliance including the Lakota reservations and the Ponca, not to mention the many others in Alberta who are already affected by the Tar Sands extraction. You can hear some singing on the video clips as people are riding their horses in D.C ☺. Hats off for the courage of the protesters! http://boldnebraska.org/day-one-reject-protect-cowboy-and-indian-alliance-rides-into-d-c/?akid=2.28937.H-vwKA&rd=1&t=1 Best, Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Saul Schwartz Sent: Friday, April 25, 2014 1:52 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: citation/quotation conventions for list? Dear David, Touché. Sure, feel free to forward my post. Personally, I think of the List as a kind of public archive---I'm just not sure if everyone feels that way or not. Thus, in my opinion, people could cite posts just as they would anything they found online, e.g., name, date, title, link, whatever the style manual they're using requires. If, on the other hand, the convention is to check with someone before citing/quoting, then they may prefer some other arrangement---for example, they may be ok with being quoted but don't want their name to be cited. It occurs to me, though, that in the draft of my paper, I didn't name names nor did I check with Bryan, Jimm, and Willem beforehand to see if they wanted to be credited or remain anonymous. So, that is clearly not an ethical option. Unless a consensus emerges that members see the List as a kind of public archive (which is de facto what it is since it is archived online where anyone can access it), I will treat communication on the List as I would emails between colleagues (which is what it usually feels like) and therefore contact posters individually to request permission to cite/quote. All best, Saul On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 12:41 PM, Jan Ullrich > wrote: David, Feel free to forward my comments to anyone. They can cite my email to the Siouan list on 4/25/2014. Jan -----Original Message----- From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of ROOD DAVID S Sent: Friday, April 25, 2014 7:06 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: citation/quotation conventions for list? This message is primarily addressed to Jan and Saul, and it combines the issues raised in Saul's chapter (and Jan's reply) with the question Saul originally raised. I haven't repeated the thread here -- see Jan's recent message for that. There is considerable interest here in these issues of the appropriate goals and methods -- e.g. use of web-based technologies -- for language revitalization, and what Jan and Saul say would be of interest to some of my colleagues and students who don't work with Siouan languages. Would it be appropriate for me to forward your comments to them? If so, how would you like to be acknowledged if they decide to repeat your observations? Best, David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.rood at COLORADO.EDU Sat Apr 26 03:27:56 2014 From: david.rood at COLORADO.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2014 21:27:56 -0600 Subject: citation/quotation conventions for list? In-Reply-To: <018c01cf60b5$f32ddd10$d9899730$@org> Message-ID: Thanks, Jan. David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Fri, 25 Apr 2014, Jan Ullrich wrote: > David, > > Feel free to forward my comments to anyone. They can cite my email to the > Siouan list on 4/25/2014. > > Jan > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of ROOD > DAVID S > Sent: Friday, April 25, 2014 7:06 PM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Re: citation/quotation conventions for list? > > This message is primarily addressed to Jan and Saul, and it combines the > issues raised in Saul's chapter (and Jan's reply) with the question Saul > originally raised. I haven't repeated the thread here -- see Jan's recent > message for that. > > There is considerable interest here in these issues of the appropriate goals > and methods -- e.g. use of web-based technologies -- for language > revitalization, and what Jan and Saul say would be of interest to some of my > colleagues and students who don't work with Siouan languages. Would it be > appropriate for me to forward your comments to them? If so, how would you > like to be acknowledged if they decide to repeat your observations? > > Best, > David > > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > -- > Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. > Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming > email from Yahoo.com > > -- > Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. > Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com From david.rood at COLORADO.EDU Sat Apr 26 03:28:05 2014 From: david.rood at COLORADO.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2014 21:28:05 -0600 Subject: citation/quotation conventions for list? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, Saul. Perhaps nothing will come of it, but whenever I read anything as thoughtful as the chapter you sent with your message, I feel like I ought to pass it on. Hope your work is going well. If the rest of your dissertation is of the quality I see in this draft, I will really look forward to seeing it. Best, David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Fri, 25 Apr 2014, Saul Schwartz wrote: > Dear David, > > Touché. Sure, feel free to forward my post. Personally, I think of the List > as a kind of public archive---I'm just not sure if everyone feels that way > or not. Thus, in my opinion, people could cite posts just as they would > anything they found online, e.g., name, date, title, link, whatever the > style manual they're using requires. If, on the other hand, the convention > is to check with someone before citing/quoting, then they may prefer some > other arrangement---for example, they may be ok with being quoted but don't > want their name to be cited. > > It occurs to me, though, that in the draft of my paper, I didn't name names > nor did I check with Bryan, Jimm, and Willem beforehand to see if they > wanted to be credited or remain anonymous. So, that is clearly *not* an > ethical option. > > Unless a consensus emerges that members see the List as a kind of public > archive (which is de facto what it is since it is archived online where > anyone can access it), I will treat communication on the List as I would > emails between colleagues (which is what it usually feels like) and > therefore contact posters individually to request permission to cite/quote. > > All best, > Saul > > > On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 12:41 PM, Jan Ullrich wrote: > >> David, >> >> Feel free to forward my comments to anyone. They can cite my email to the >> Siouan list on 4/25/2014. >> >> Jan >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of >> ROOD >> DAVID S >> Sent: Friday, April 25, 2014 7:06 PM >> To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >> Subject: Re: citation/quotation conventions for list? >> >> This message is primarily addressed to Jan and Saul, and it combines the >> issues raised in Saul's chapter (and Jan's reply) with the question Saul >> originally raised. I haven't repeated the thread here -- see Jan's recent >> message for that. >> >> There is considerable interest here in these issues of the appropriate >> goals >> and methods -- e.g. use of web-based technologies -- for language >> revitalization, and what Jan and Saul say would be of interest to some of >> my >> colleagues and students who don't work with Siouan languages. Would it be >> appropriate for me to forward your comments to them? If so, how would you >> like to be acknowledged if they decide to repeat your observations? >> >> Best, >> David >> >> >> David S. Rood >> Dept. of Linguistics >> Univ. of Colorado >> 295 UCB >> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >> USA >> rood at colorado.edu >> >> -- >> Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. >> Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming >> email from Yahoo.com >> >> -- >> Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. >> Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept >> incoming email from Yahoo.com >> > > -- > Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. > Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com From mawakuni-swetland2 at UNL.EDU Mon Apr 28 16:05:05 2014 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at UNL.EDU (Mark Awakuni-Swetland) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2014 16:05:05 +0000 Subject: citation/quotation conventions for list? In-Reply-To: <535980730200008E000B3982@hermes.wsc.edu> Message-ID: Aloha all, I am just now catching up with this timely conversation regarding quotation/citation conventions. While I will be unable to travel to this year’s SCLConf, can I encourage you all to brainstorm some protocols for how to cite the SIOUANList? I recognize that the List is a resource for both academic and community folks. I do not want to burden or hinder non-academics from using the List and Archives. However a set of examples for how to cite List sources would be helpful to those wanting to cite sources as expected by journal and book publishers, MA & PhD committees, and other senior faculty. Several of you have already provided some approaches on this topic. Would someone be willing to spearhead a discussion on this at the conference? Many thanks for considering this request. Mark Awakuni-Swetland Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. Associate Professor Anthropology & Ethnic Studies Native American Studies University of Nebraska Oldfather Hall 841 Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 Office: 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 http://omahalanguage.unl.edu http://omahaponca.unl.edu “Tenixa uqpatha egoN”, a biama winisi akHa. Lincoln Gem and Mineral Club, Inc. Post Office Box 5342 Lincoln, NE 68505-0342 From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Catherine Rudin Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 9:22 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: citation/quotation conventions for list? I also have cited List messages on occasion, though I think only in pretty informal contexts like conference presentations. As you point out, Saul, it is a public text, and I think it's legit to cite it the same way you would cite any online resource. Perhaps it's good for us all to remind ourselves that everything we write to the List IS not only public but permanently archived... C. >>> Bryan James Gordon 04/24/14 5:59 PM >>> Hi Saul, I've cited Siouan List messages a few times before, often because the List is the only place I can find the relevant claims or data in an easily accessible form. I certainly welcome having my own List messages cited. That being said, for academic venues we have to keep in mind that the List is not peer-reviewed in the ordinary sense, and it's hard to know how on- or off-the-record things are. I'd like to continue your conversation about the relationship between language and culture (and also take part more actively in other Siouan stuff like helping out with edited volumes), but right now I'm frantically trying to finish my comprehensive exams so I'll have to put that off until the conference. Keep up the good work! Bryan 2014-04-24 15:27 GMT-07:00 Saul Schwartz >: Dear all, I am wondering about the social conventions (stated or unstated) for citing and/or quoting material from the Siouan Listserv. On the one hand, the List is archived for anyone to view here (http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A0=SIOUAN), so it is in some sense a public text. On the other hand, there is a strong sense of community among members of the List, and I have a feeling that we sometimes forget that we’re talking to each other in what is essentially a public forum (in the sense that the public can listen in on our conversation; one has to be a member to contribute, of course). I would be interested to hear general thoughts or thoughts related to the specific case described below. For example, I am currently working on an article/dissertation chapter about how the relationship between “language” and “culture” is changing for many American Indians who no longer speak their heritage languages. Specifically, I am trying point out the irony that while many people support language revitalization because they believe that “the language” is essential for “the culture,” revitalization efforts themselves often remove heritage languages from their traditional cultural contexts in an effort to make them more relevant to learners—for example, by coming up with Siouan calques for English idioms. After discussing some examples from the literature and my own experiences working with Jimm’s Ioway, Otoe-Missouria Language Project, I wanted to mention some of the reactions on the List to the recent request to translate “curiouser and curiouser” from Alice in Wonderland; specifically, I wanted to quote parts of Bryan’s, Jimm’s, and Willem’s responses. I am including an excerpt from the draft of the paper below to give some context, but the paragraph that includes information from the Siouan Listserv is the second to last one. Has a convention for citation and/or quotation already been established for the List? Are posts assumed to be citable and/or quotable unless otherwise stated? Do we expect someone wanting to cite and/or quote a post to contact the poster off-list to request permission before doing so? Etc.... All best, Saul Ironically, while efforts to revitalize heritage languages are often motivated by a belief that “the language” is an essential part of “the culture,” language revitalization itself often ends up separating codes from their traditionally associated cultural settings. David Samuels (2006), for example, discusses how conflicts between Apache traditionalists, who believe the language is too powerful for young speakers, and Christians, who believe the language is too un-Christian for their children, have narrowed the kind of language that can be taught in the community to object identification—in other words, children are learning a version of the language stripped of its indexical associations with traditional culture practices. But, as an Apache bilingual teacher wonders, if children are only learning how to use Apache to order a cheeseburger, what’s the point? (2006:551). M. Eleanor Nevins (2004) finds language classes are controversial in another Apache community because they fail to teach communicative competence, that is, social conventions for interaction that make particular codes culturally significant means of communication. Meeks reports similar developments in the Yukon, where educational routines used to teach Kaska in school settings conflict with Dene interactional conventions and language socialization ideologies. Furthermore, these educational routines “emphasiz[e] the referential aspect of language while downplaying all other indexical dimensions, and thereby diminish their sustainability as complex systems of and for communication” (2010:126). In their research on Pueblo groups in the Southwest, Debenport (xxxx) and Whiteley (xxxx) also found conflicts between language revitalization and cultural priorities. Many Tewas and Hopis believe that outsiders should not have access to their languages and thus oppose revitalization efforts that decontextualize codes from community-internal interpersonal interactions and recontextualize them in forms that can circulate beyond the community (e.g., online, in books, in schools attended by Navajo or other non-Pueblo children, etc.). By refusing to support such language revitalization efforts, community members are saying in effect that keeping their language private is more important to them than maintaining the code. Jocelyn Ahlers provides another example of how languages can become separated from their traditionally associated cultures in her description of how moribund languages are used to perform Native identities through memorized texts, a speech style she calls “Native Language as Identity Marker” (2006:62). She concludes that “this speech style adds to the body of evidence that language use is not indexical with cultural . . . identity, but rather performative of it” (2006:72). By this I understand her to mean that, unlike other kinds of code-switching, in this case a speaker sends a message about their identity by their code choice alone—what they are saying in the code refers to nothing outside itself (denotatively, indexically, or otherwise) because it is “code-switching, by a nonfluent speaker, to a noncomprehending audience” (2006:69). In the case of these memorized speeches, a code performs an identity without referring to anything cultural. Whiteley (2003:715) offers a similar interpretation of speeches by younger generations at Haida memorial potlatches, and the Dauenhauers note an analogous development in written Tlingit when those who have no or little knowledge of the language “use literacy for its decorative and symbolic effect or impression: for example, ‘Merry Christmas’ in Tlingit on corporate windows or Christmas cards” (1998:89). To draw from my own experience, the Ioway, Otoe-Missouria Language Project (IOMLP) makes a special effort to embed language in culturally significant contexts that are also applicable to modern day life. For example, the IOMLP designed and printed a tee shirt that includes a traditional floral design, a diagram representing the shared histories of the Iowa, Otoe-Missouria, and closely related Winnebago peoples (all labeled by their Chiwere endo- or exo-nyms), an image of an elder and a child wearing traditional ceremonial dance clothes, and a sentence in Chiwere that translates, ‘The language honors our elders and teaches our children.’ Similarly, the IOMLP designed mugs that include the Chiwere phrase for ‘I love my coffee’ with the image of an Oneota-style ceramic vessel superimposed over a medicine wheel. While the IOMLP makes a special effort to embed language in culturally rich contexts, the Project is all too familiar with the opposite possibility: that traditional language can be used in contexts far removed from traditional cultural practices and values. The director of the Project often receives requests to calque English idioms, for example, “Go green!” (for a tribal environmental awareness program) or “I [heart icon] boobies!” (for breast cancer awareness bracelets). He has also been asked to provide Chiwere equivalents for terms from the video game Halo. These requests are met with ambivalence since they have no connection to traditional cultural practices or can even seem antithetical to them. For example, the request for “I [heart icon] boobies!” provoked a lesson on traditional attitudes toward body parts, body functions, and sexuality. And when I explained to the IOMLP what Halo is (a first-person shooter, i.e., rather violent, video game), the director expressed reservations that Chiwere language be associated with it at all. In some cases, then, indigenous languages can be used not just for cultural practices that are seen as untraditional (ordering a cheeseburger) but also anti-traditional (ones that promote dominant society attitudes toward sex, violence, etc.). This phenomenon is not limited to Chiwere, however, and many people involved in Siouan language documentation and revitalization receive similar requests. John Koontz, for example, received so many requests to translate stock English phrases as well as names for children and pets into Omaha-Ponca that he posted his general response to such questions on the FAQ section of his website. Once, he was even asked (presumably as a joke) for a Native American name for an RV; he responded in kind with Hotanke, an Anglicized spelling of the Dakotan word for ‘Winnebago’ (Winnebago is a popular brand of RV in the United States, much to the chagrin of the Winnebago Indians). Recently, a request appeared on the Siouan Listserv to translate a line from Alice in Wonderland (“curiouser and curiouser, cried Alice”) into various Siouan languages for some kind of polyglot compilation. While some found the intellectual challenge of translating a Victorian neologism into Siouan languages intriguing, others were less receptive to the request because of its perceived triviality and irrelevance to Native communities: “It’s a more distinguished request than pet names and such, but it’s not the kind of translation work I would prefer to spend my time on. Why don’t people ask us to translate Microsoft Word or a K-12 curriculum or something important?” and “I have other priorities and am unclear on the need for [a translation of] the particular quote from a story which has nothing in common with Native American culture. . . . To spend time on the translation of materials that have no immediate application to the language communities is nonsensical and, for my part, a waste of time.” One linguist shared his general guidelines for responding to such requests: “One has to pick and choose. If it is short and culturally appropriate, I generally agree to it. . . . Then other requests have to be nixed, like the set of ‘Spring Break’ phrases I once was asked to translate, things like ‘I am so drunk,’ and ‘Where is the bathroom?’” In short, while language revitalization seeks to expand opportunities for the continued use of heritage languages by making them seem more applicable to current social conditions, there is a danger that the codes may become disassociated from the traditional cultures that motivate their revitalization in the first place. If what we care about is not only preserving linguistic diversity (in the sense of grammatical structures) but also preserving distinctive cultural worldviews and lifeways by maintaining heritage languages, then we have won the battle while losing the war if people are only learning and using heritage languages to participate in the practices of the dominant society. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- *********************************************************** Bryan James Gordon, MA Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology University of Arizona *********************************************************** -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU Tue Apr 29 01:53:55 2014 From: linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU (Bryan James Gordon) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2014 18:53:55 -0700 Subject: citation/quotation conventions for list? In-Reply-To: <91899abd9be14c35a5cf323223ea4997@BY2PR08MB240.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Conference gáthaⁿdi witáⁿbe-mázhi-tʰe íⁿtha-mázhi Mark, thigíni údaⁿ maⁿníⁿ kaⁿbthégaⁿ. Mark raises a very important point about non-academics' access. I agree that we should give this some detailed attention at the conference, but I want us to keep non-academic audiences, especially non-linguists in Native communities, in mind. Us academics have rules to follow, and our citation practices are interwoven with ideologies of due credit, verifiability and (!!!!) intellectual property. We enforce these rules on each other, but personally I don't believe we have any business enforcing them on Native communities (many of whom have objected to linguists' complicity in the "theft" of their languages and are fighting back along lines of intellectual property), nice as it may be to be properly cited. I know that my reasoning may sound a bit harsh to some of my fellow academics, but I hope that we can abstain from demanding citation practices from non-academics nonetheless. Bryan 2014-04-28 9:05 GMT-07:00 Mark Awakuni-Swetland : > Aloha all, > > I am just now catching up with this timely conversation regarding > quotation/citation conventions. > > While I will be unable to travel to this year’s SCLConf, can I encourage > you all to brainstorm some protocols for how to cite the SIOUANList? > > > > I recognize that the List is a resource for both academic and community > folks. > > > > I do not want to burden or hinder non-academics from using the List and > Archives. However a set of examples for how to cite List sources would be > helpful to those wanting to cite sources as expected by journal and book > publishers, MA & PhD committees, and other senior faculty. > > > > Several of you have already provided some approaches on this topic. > > > > Would someone be willing to spearhead a discussion on this at the > conference? > > > > Many thanks for considering this request. > > > > Mark Awakuni-Swetland > > > > > > Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. > > Associate Professor > > Anthropology & Ethnic Studies > > Native American Studies > > University of Nebraska > > Oldfather Hall 841 > > Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 > > > > Office: 402-472-3455 > > FAX: 402-472-9642 > > http://omahalanguage.unl.edu > > http://omahaponca.unl.edu > > > > “Tenixa uqpatha egoN”, a biama winisi akHa. > > > > Lincoln Gem and Mineral Club, Inc. > > Post Office Box 5342 > > Lincoln, NE 68505-0342 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of > *Catherine Rudin > *Sent:* Thursday, April 24, 2014 9:22 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU > > *Subject:* Re: citation/quotation conventions for list? > > > > I also have cited List messages on occasion, though I think only in pretty > informal contexts like conference presentations. As you point out, Saul, it > is a public text, and I think it's legit to cite it the same way you would > cite any online resource. > > Perhaps it's good for us all to remind ourselves that everything we write > to the List IS not only public but permanently archived... > > C. > > >>> Bryan James Gordon 04/24/14 5:59 PM >>> > > Hi Saul, > > > > I've cited Siouan List messages a few times before, often because the List > is the only place I can find the relevant claims or data in an easily > accessible form. I certainly welcome having my own List messages cited. > That being said, for academic venues we have to keep in mind that the List > is not peer-reviewed in the ordinary sense, and it's hard to know how on- > or off-the-record things are. I'd like to continue your conversation about > the relationship between language and culture (and also take part more > actively in other Siouan stuff like helping out with edited volumes), but > right now I'm frantically trying to finish my comprehensive exams so I'll > have to put that off until the conference. Keep up the good work! > > > > Bryan > > > > 2014-04-24 15:27 GMT-07:00 Saul Schwartz : > > Dear all, > > > > I am wondering about the social conventions (stated or unstated) for > citing and/or quoting material from the Siouan Listserv. On the one hand, > the List is archived for anyone to view here ( > http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A0=SIOUAN), so it is in some > sense a public text. On the other hand, there is a strong sense of > community among members of the List, and I have a feeling that we sometimes > forget that we’re talking to each other in what is essentially a public > forum (in the sense that the public can listen in on our conversation; one > has to be a member to contribute, of course). I would be interested to hear > general thoughts or thoughts related to the specific case described below. > > > > For example, I am currently working on an article/dissertation chapter > about how the relationship between “language” and “culture” is changing for > many American Indians who no longer speak their heritage languages. > Specifically, I am trying point out the irony that while many people > support language revitalization because they believe that “the language” is > essential for “the culture,” revitalization efforts themselves often remove > heritage languages from their traditional cultural contexts in an effort to > make them more relevant to learners—for example, by coming up with Siouan > calques for English idioms. After discussing some examples from the > literature and my own experiences working with Jimm’s Ioway, Otoe-Missouria > Language Project, I wanted to mention some of the reactions on the List to > the recent request to translate “curiouser and curiouser” from *Alice in > Wonderland*; specifically, I wanted to quote parts of Bryan’s, Jimm’s, > and Willem’s responses. I am including an excerpt from the draft of the > paper below to give some context, but the paragraph that includes > information from the Siouan Listserv is the second to last one. > > > > Has a convention for citation and/or quotation already been established > for the List? Are posts assumed to be citable and/or quotable unless > otherwise stated? Do we expect someone wanting to cite and/or quote a post > to contact the poster off-list to request permission before doing so? > Etc.... > > > > All best, > > Saul > > > > Ironically, while efforts to revitalize heritage languages are often > motivated by a belief that “the language” is an essential part of “the > culture,” language revitalization itself often ends up separating codes > from their traditionally associated cultural settings. David Samuels > (2006), for example, discusses how conflicts between Apache > traditionalists, who believe the language is too powerful for young > speakers, and Christians, who believe the language is too un-Christian for > their children, have narrowed the kind of language that can be taught in > the community to object identification—in other words, children are > learning a version of the language stripped of its indexical associations > with traditional culture practices. But, as an Apache bilingual teacher > wonders, if children are only learning how to use Apache to order a > cheeseburger, what’s the point? (2006:551). M. Eleanor Nevins (2004) finds > language classes are controversial in another Apache community because they > fail to teach communicative competence, that is, social conventions for > interaction that make particular codes culturally significant means of > communication. > > > > Meeks reports similar developments in the Yukon, where educational > routines used to teach Kaska in school settings conflict with Dene > interactional conventions and language socialization ideologies. > Furthermore, these educational routines “emphasiz[e] the referential aspect > of language while downplaying all other indexical dimensions, and thereby > diminish their sustainability as complex systems of and for communication” > (2010:126). > > > > In their research on Pueblo groups in the Southwest, Debenport (xxxx) and > Whiteley (xxxx) also found conflicts between language revitalization and > cultural priorities. Many Tewas and Hopis believe that outsiders should not > have access to their languages and thus oppose revitalization efforts that > decontextualize codes from community-internal interpersonal interactions > and recontextualize them in forms that can circulate beyond the community > (e.g., online, in books, in schools attended by Navajo or other non-Pueblo > children, etc.). By refusing to support such language revitalization > efforts, community members are saying in effect that keeping their language > private is more important to them than maintaining the code. > > > > Jocelyn Ahlers provides another example of how languages can become > separated from their traditionally associated cultures in her description > of how moribund languages are used to perform Native identities through > memorized texts, a speech style she calls “Native Language as Identity > Marker” (2006:62). She concludes that “this speech style adds to the body > of evidence that language use is not indexical with cultural . . . > identity, but rather performative of it” (2006:72). By this I understand > her to mean that, unlike other kinds of code-switching, in this case a > speaker sends a message about their identity by their code choice > alone—what they are saying in the code refers to nothing outside itself > (denotatively, indexically, or otherwise) because it is “code-switching, by > a nonfluent speaker, to a noncomprehending audience” (2006:69). In the case > of these memorized speeches, a code performs an identity without referring > to anything cultural. Whiteley (2003:715) offers a similar interpretation > of speeches by younger generations at Haida memorial potlatches, and the > Dauenhauers note an analogous development in written Tlingit when those who > have no or little knowledge of the language “use literacy for its > decorative and symbolic effect or impression: for example, ‘Merry > Christmas’ in Tlingit on corporate windows or Christmas cards” (1998:89). > > > > To draw from my own experience, the Ioway, Otoe-Missouria Language Project > (IOMLP) makes a special effort to embed language in culturally significant > contexts that are also applicable to modern day life. For example, the > IOMLP designed and printed a tee shirt that includes a traditional floral > design, a diagram representing the shared histories of the Iowa, > Otoe-Missouria, and closely related Winnebago peoples (all labeled by their > Chiwere endo- or exo-nyms), an image of an elder and a child wearing > traditional ceremonial dance clothes, and a sentence in Chiwere that > translates, ‘The language honors our elders and teaches our children.’ > Similarly, the IOMLP designed mugs that include the Chiwere phrase for ‘I > love my coffee’ with the image of an Oneota-style ceramic vessel > superimposed over a medicine wheel. > > > > While the IOMLP makes a special effort to embed language in culturally > rich contexts, the Project is all too familiar with the opposite > possibility: that traditional language can be used in contexts far removed > from traditional cultural practices and values. The director of the Project > often receives requests to calque English idioms, for example, “Go green!” > (for a tribal environmental awareness program) or “I [heart icon] boobies!” > (for breast cancer awareness bracelets). He has also been asked to provide > Chiwere equivalents for terms from the video game *Halo*. These requests > are met with ambivalence since they have no connection to traditional > cultural practices or can even seem antithetical to them. For example, the > request for “I [heart icon] boobies!” provoked a lesson on traditional > attitudes toward body parts, body functions, and sexuality. And when I > explained to the IOMLP what *Halo* is (a first-person shooter, i.e., > rather violent, video game), the director expressed reservations that > Chiwere language be associated with it at all. In some cases, then, > indigenous languages can be used not just for cultural practices that are > seen as untraditional (ordering a cheeseburger) but also anti-traditional > (ones that promote dominant society attitudes toward sex, violence, etc.). > > > > This phenomenon is not limited to Chiwere, however, and many people > involved in Siouan language documentation and revitalization receive > similar requests. John Koontz, for example, received so many requests to > translate stock English phrases as well as names for children and pets into > Omaha-Ponca that he posted his general response to such questions on the > FAQ section of his website. Once, he was even asked (presumably as a joke) > for a Native American name for an RV; he responded in kind with *Hotanke*, > an Anglicized spelling of the Dakotan word for ‘Winnebago’ (Winnebago is a > popular brand of RV in the United States, much to the chagrin of the > Winnebago Indians). > > > > Recently, a request appeared on the Siouan Listserv to translate a line > from *Alice in Wonderland* (“curiouser and curiouser, cried Alice”) into > various Siouan languages for some kind of polyglot compilation. While some > found the intellectual challenge of translating a Victorian neologism into > Siouan languages intriguing, others were less receptive to the request > because of its perceived triviality and irrelevance to Native communities: > “It’s a more distinguished request than pet names and such, but it’s not > the kind of translation work I would prefer to spend my time on. Why don’t > people ask us to translate Microsoft Word or a K-12 curriculum or something > important?” and “I have other priorities and am unclear on the need for [a > translation of] the particular quote from a story which has nothing in > common with Native American culture. . . . To spend time on the translation > of materials that have no immediate application to the language communities > is nonsensical and, for my part, a waste of time.” One linguist shared his > general guidelines for responding to such requests: “One has to pick and > choose. If it is short and culturally appropriate, I generally agree to it. > . . . Then other requests have to be nixed, like the set of ‘Spring Break’ > phrases I once was asked to translate, things like ‘I am so drunk,’ and > ‘Where is the bathroom?’” > > > > In short, while language revitalization seeks to expand opportunities for > the continued use of heritage languages by making them seem more applicable > to current social conditions, there is a danger that the codes may become > disassociated from the traditional cultures that motivate their > revitalization in the first place. If what we care about is not only > preserving linguistic diversity (in the sense of grammatical structures) > but also preserving distinctive *cultural* worldviews and lifeways by > maintaining heritage languages, then we have won the battle while losing > the war if people are only learning and using heritage languages to > participate in the practices of the dominant society. > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's > DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from > Yahoo.com > > > > > > -- > *********************************************************** > Bryan James Gordon, MA > Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology > University of Arizona > *********************************************************** > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's > DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from > Yahoo.com > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's > DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from > Yahoo.com > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's > DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from > Yahoo.com > -- *********************************************************** Bryan James Gordon, MA Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology University of Arizona *********************************************************** -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK Tue Apr 29 17:11:18 2014 From: shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK (bruce Ingham) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2014 18:11:18 +0100 Subject: citation/quotation conventions for list? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think that Bryan's ideas on the subject are very sensible practical and will encourage non-academics to participate. Bruce On 29 Apr 2014, at 02:53, Bryan James Gordon wrote: > Conference gáthaⁿdi witáⁿbe-mázhi-tʰe íⁿtha-mázhi Mark, thigíni údaⁿ maⁿníⁿ kaⁿbthégaⁿ. > > Mark raises a very important point about non-academics' access. I agree that we should give this some detailed attention at the conference, but I want us to keep non-academic audiences, especially non-linguists in Native communities, in mind. Us academics have rules to follow, and our citation practices are interwoven with ideologies of due credit, verifiability and (!!!!) intellectual property. We enforce these rules on each other, but personally I don't believe we have any business enforcing them on Native communities (many of whom have objected to linguists' complicity in the "theft" of their languages and are fighting back along lines of intellectual property), nice as it may be to be properly cited. I know that my reasoning may sound a bit harsh to some of my fellow academics, but I hope that we can abstain from demanding citation practices from non-academics nonetheless. > > Bryan > > > 2014-04-28 9:05 GMT-07:00 Mark Awakuni-Swetland : > Aloha all, > > I am just now catching up with this timely conversation regarding quotation/citation conventions. > > While I will be unable to travel to this year’s SCLConf, can I encourage you all to brainstorm some protocols for how to cite the SIOUANList? > > > > I recognize that the List is a resource for both academic and community folks. > > > > I do not want to burden or hinder non-academics from using the List and Archives. However a set of examples for how to cite List sources would be helpful to those wanting to cite sources as expected by journal and book publishers, MA & PhD committees, and other senior faculty. > > > > Several of you have already provided some approaches on this topic. > > > > Would someone be willing to spearhead a discussion on this at the conference? > > > > Many thanks for considering this request. > > > > Mark Awakuni-Swetland > > > > > > Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. > > Associate Professor > > Anthropology & Ethnic Studies > > Native American Studies > > University of Nebraska > > Oldfather Hall 841 > > Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 > > > > Office: 402-472-3455 > > FAX: 402-472-9642 > > http://omahalanguage.unl.edu > > http://omahaponca.unl.edu > > > > “Tenixa uqpatha egoN”, a biama winisi akHa. > > > > Lincoln Gem and Mineral Club, Inc. > > Post Office Box 5342 > > Lincoln, NE 68505-0342 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Catherine Rudin > Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 9:22 PM > To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU > > > Subject: Re: citation/quotation conventions for list? > > > > I also have cited List messages on occasion, though I think only in pretty informal contexts like conference presentations. As you point out, Saul, it is a public text, and I think it's legit to cite it the same way you would cite any online resource. > > > Perhaps it's good for us all to remind ourselves that everything we write to the List IS not only public but permanently archived... > > C. > > >>> Bryan James Gordon 04/24/14 5:59 PM >>> > > Hi Saul, > > > > I've cited Siouan List messages a few times before, often because the List is the only place I can find the relevant claims or data in an easily accessible form. I certainly welcome having my own List messages cited. That being said, for academic venues we have to keep in mind that the List is not peer-reviewed in the ordinary sense, and it's hard to know how on- or off-the-record things are. I'd like to continue your conversation about the relationship between language and culture (and also take part more actively in other Siouan stuff like helping out with edited volumes), but right now I'm frantically trying to finish my comprehensive exams so I'll have to put that off until the conference. Keep up the good work! > > > > Bryan > > > > 2014-04-24 15:27 GMT-07:00 Saul Schwartz : > > Dear all, > > > > I am wondering about the social conventions (stated or unstated) for citing and/or quoting material from the Siouan Listserv. On the one hand, the List is archived for anyone to view here (http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A0=SIOUAN), so it is in some sense a public text. On the other hand, there is a strong sense of community among members of the List, and I have a feeling that we sometimes forget that we’re talking to each other in what is essentially a public forum (in the sense that the public can listen in on our conversation; one has to be a member to contribute, of course). I would be interested to hear general thoughts or thoughts related to the specific case described below. > > > > For example, I am currently working on an article/dissertation chapter about how the relationship between “language” and “culture” is changing for many American Indians who no longer speak their heritage languages. Specifically, I am trying point out the irony that while many people support language revitalization because they believe that “the language” is essential for “the culture,” revitalization efforts themselves often remove heritage languages from their traditional cultural contexts in an effort to make them more relevant to learners—for example, by coming up with Siouan calques for English idioms. After discussing some examples from the literature and my own experiences working with Jimm’s Ioway, Otoe-Missouria Language Project, I wanted to mention some of the reactions on the List to the recent request to translate “curiouser and curiouser” from Alice in Wonderland; specifically, I wanted to quote parts of Bryan’s, Jimm’s, and Willem’s responses. I am including an excerpt from the draft of the paper below to give some context, but the paragraph that includes information from the Siouan Listserv is the second to last one. > > > > Has a convention for citation and/or quotation already been established for the List? Are posts assumed to be citable and/or quotable unless otherwise stated? Do we expect someone wanting to cite and/or quote a post to contact the poster off-list to request permission before doing so? Etc.... > > > > All best, > > Saul > > > > Ironically, while efforts to revitalize heritage languages are often motivated by a belief that “the language” is an essential part of “the culture,” language revitalization itself often ends up separating codes from their traditionally associated cultural settings. David Samuels (2006), for example, discusses how conflicts between Apache traditionalists, who believe the language is too powerful for young speakers, and Christians, who believe the language is too un-Christian for their children, have narrowed the kind of language that can be taught in the community to object identification—in other words, children are learning a version of the language stripped of its indexical associations with traditional culture practices. But, as an Apache bilingual teacher wonders, if children are only learning how to use Apache to order a cheeseburger, what’s the point? (2006:551). M. Eleanor Nevins (2004) finds language classes are controversial in another Apache community because they fail to teach communicative competence, that is, social conventions for interaction that make particular codes culturally significant means of communication. > > > > Meeks reports similar developments in the Yukon, where educational routines used to teach Kaska in school settings conflict with Dene interactional conventions and language socialization ideologies. Furthermore, these educational routines “emphasiz[e] the referential aspect of language while downplaying all other indexical dimensions, and thereby diminish their sustainability as complex systems of and for communication” (2010:126). > > > > In their research on Pueblo groups in the Southwest, Debenport (xxxx) and Whiteley (xxxx) also found conflicts between language revitalization and cultural priorities. Many Tewas and Hopis believe that outsiders should not have access to their languages and thus oppose revitalization efforts that decontextualize codes from community-internal interpersonal interactions and recontextualize them in forms that can circulate beyond the community (e.g., online, in books, in schools attended by Navajo or other non-Pueblo children, etc.). By refusing to support such language revitalization efforts, community members are saying in effect that keeping their language private is more important to them than maintaining the code. > > > > Jocelyn Ahlers provides another example of how languages can become separated from their traditionally associated cultures in her description of how moribund languages are used to perform Native identities through memorized texts, a speech style she calls “Native Language as Identity Marker” (2006:62). She concludes that “this speech style adds to the body of evidence that language use is not indexical with cultural . . . identity, but rather performative of it” (2006:72). By this I understand her to mean that, unlike other kinds of code-switching, in this case a speaker sends a message about their identity by their code choice alone—what they are saying in the code refers to nothing outside itself (denotatively, indexically, or otherwise) because it is “code-switching, by a nonfluent speaker, to a noncomprehending audience” (2006:69). In the case of these memorized speeches, a code performs an identity without referring to anything cultural. Whiteley (2003:715) offers a similar interpretation of speeches by younger generations at Haida memorial potlatches, and the Dauenhauers note an analogous development in written Tlingit when those who have no or little knowledge of the language “use literacy for its decorative and symbolic effect or impression: for example, ‘Merry Christmas’ in Tlingit on corporate windows or Christmas cards” (1998:89). > > > > To draw from my own experience, the Ioway, Otoe-Missouria Language Project (IOMLP) makes a special effort to embed language in culturally significant contexts that are also applicable to modern day life. For example, the IOMLP designed and printed a tee shirt that includes a traditional floral design, a diagram representing the shared histories of the Iowa, Otoe-Missouria, and closely related Winnebago peoples (all labeled by their Chiwere endo- or exo-nyms), an image of an elder and a child wearing traditional ceremonial dance clothes, and a sentence in Chiwere that translates, ‘The language honors our elders and teaches our children.’ Similarly, the IOMLP designed mugs that include the Chiwere phrase for ‘I love my coffee’ with the image of an Oneota-style ceramic vessel superimposed over a medicine wheel. > > > > While the IOMLP makes a special effort to embed language in culturally rich contexts, the Project is all too familiar with the opposite possibility: that traditional language can be used in contexts far removed from traditional cultural practices and values. The director of the Project often receives requests to calque English idioms, for example, “Go green!” (for a tribal environmental awareness program) or “I [heart icon] boobies!” (for breast cancer awareness bracelets). He has also been asked to provide Chiwere equivalents for terms from the video game Halo. These requests are met with ambivalence since they have no connection to traditional cultural practices or can even seem antithetical to them. For example, the request for “I [heart icon] boobies!” provoked a lesson on traditional attitudes toward body parts, body functions, and sexuality. And when I explained to the IOMLP what Halo is (a first-person shooter, i.e., rather violent, video game), the director expressed reservations that Chiwere language be associated with it at all. In some cases, then, indigenous languages can be used not just for cultural practices that are seen as untraditional (ordering a cheeseburger) but also anti-traditional (ones that promote dominant society attitudes toward sex, violence, etc.). > > > > This phenomenon is not limited to Chiwere, however, and many people involved in Siouan language documentation and revitalization receive similar requests. John Koontz, for example, received so many requests to translate stock English phrases as well as names for children and pets into Omaha-Ponca that he posted his general response to such questions on the FAQ section of his website. Once, he was even asked (presumably as a joke) for a Native American name for an RV; he responded in kind with Hotanke, an Anglicized spelling of the Dakotan word for ‘Winnebago’ (Winnebago is a popular brand of RV in the United States, much to the chagrin of the Winnebago Indians). > > > > Recently, a request appeared on the Siouan Listserv to translate a line from Alice in Wonderland (“curiouser and curiouser, cried Alice”) into various Siouan languages for some kind of polyglot compilation. While some found the intellectual challenge of translating a Victorian neologism into Siouan languages intriguing, others were less receptive to the request because of its perceived triviality and irrelevance to Native communities: “It’s a more distinguished request than pet names and such, but it’s not the kind of translation work I would prefer to spend my time on. Why don’t people ask us to translate Microsoft Word or a K-12 curriculum or something important?” and “I have other priorities and am unclear on the need for [a translation of] the particular quote from a story which has nothing in common with Native American culture. . . . To spend time on the translation of materials that have no immediate application to the language communities is nonsensical and, for my part, a waste of time.” One linguist shared his general guidelines for responding to such requests: “One has to pick and choose. If it is short and culturally appropriate, I generally agree to it. . . . Then other requests have to be nixed, like the set of ‘Spring Break’ phrases I once was asked to translate, things like ‘I am so drunk,’ and ‘Where is the bathroom?’” > > > > In short, while language revitalization seeks to expand opportunities for the continued use of heritage languages by making them seem more applicable to current social conditions, there is a danger that the codes may become disassociated from the traditional cultures that motivate their revitalization in the first place. If what we care about is not only preserving linguistic diversity (in the sense of grammatical structures) but also preserving distinctive cultural worldviews and lifeways by maintaining heritage languages, then we have won the battle while losing the war if people are only learning and using heritage languages to participate in the practices of the dominant society. > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com > > > > > > > -- > *********************************************************** > Bryan James Gordon, MA > Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology > University of Arizona > *********************************************************** > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com > > > > -- > *********************************************************** > Bryan James Gordon, MA > Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology > University of Arizona > *********************************************************** > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From carudin1 at WSC.EDU Tue Apr 29 23:52:25 2014 From: carudin1 at WSC.EDU (Catherine Rudin) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2014 18:52:25 -0500 Subject: citation/quotation conventions for list? Message-ID: George -- Good idea! >>> George Wilmes 04/29/14 6:38 PM >>> Whatever decision the group arrives at, I wonder if the listserv can be programmed to automatically append something to every message, such as "To cite this posting, …" followed by a short sample citation? It would be even better if it could be programmed to generate the actual citation that should be used, but that might be asking too much. On Tue, Apr 29, 2014 at 12:11 PM, bruce Ingham wrote: I think that Bryan's ideas on the subject are very sensible practical and will encourage non-academics to participate. Bruce On 29 Apr 2014, at 02:53, Bryan James Gordon wrote: Conference gáthaⁿdi witáⁿbe-mázhi-tʰe íⁿtha-mázhi Mark, thigíni údaⁿ maⁿníⁿ kaⁿbthégaⁿ. Mark raises a very important point about non-academics' access. I agree that we should give this some detailed attention at the conference, but I want us to keep non-academic audiences, especially non-linguists in Native communities, in mind. Us academics have rules to follow, and our citation practices are interwoven with ideologies of due credit, verifiability and (!!!!) intellectual property. We enforce these rules on each other, but personally I don't believe we have any business enforcing them on Native communities (many of whom have objected to linguists' complicity in the "theft" of their languages and are fighting back along lines of intellectual property), nice as it may be to be properly cited. I know that my reasoning may sound a bit harsh to some of my fellow academics, but I hope that we can abstain from demanding citation practices from non-academics nonetheless. Bryan 2014-04-28 9:05 GMT-07:00 Mark Awakuni-Swetland : Aloha all, I am just now catching up with this timely conversation regarding quotation/citation conventions. While I will be unable to travel to this year’s SCLConf, can I encourage you all to brainstorm some protocols for how to cite the SIOUANList? I recognize that the List is a resource for both academic and community folks. I do not want to burden or hinder non-academics from using the List and Archives. However a set of examples for how to cite List sources would be helpful to those wanting to cite sources as expected by journal and book publishers, MA & PhD committees, and other senior faculty. Several of you have already provided some approaches on this topic. Would someone be willing to spearhead a discussion on this at the conference? Many thanks for considering this request. Mark Awakuni-Swetland Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. Associate Professor Anthropology & Ethnic Studies Native American Studies University of Nebraska Oldfather Hall 841 Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 Office: 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 http://omahalanguage.unl.edu http://omahaponca.unl.edu “Tenixa uqpatha egoN”, a biama winisi akHa. Lincoln Gem and Mineral Club, Inc. Post Office Box 5342 Lincoln, NE 68505-0342 From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu]On Behalf Of Catherine Rudin Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 9:22 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: citation/quotation conventions for list? I also have cited List messages on occasion, though I think only in pretty informal contexts like conference presentations. As you point out, Saul, it is a public text, and I think it's legit to cite it the same way you would cite any online resource. Perhaps it's good for us all to remind ourselves that everything we write to the List IS not only public but permanently archived... C. >>> Bryan James Gordon 04/24/14 5:59 PM >>> Hi Saul, I've cited Siouan List messages a few times before, often because the List is the only place I can find the relevant claims or data in an easily accessible form. I certainly welcome having my own List messages cited. That being said, for academic venues we the List is not peer-reviewed in the ordinary sense, and it's hard to know how on- or off-the-record things are. I'd like to continue your conversation about the relationship between language and culture (and also take part more actively in other Siouan stuff like helping out with edited volumes), but right now I'm frantically trying to finish my comprehensive exams so I'll have to put that off until the conference. Keep up the good work! Bryan 2014-04-24 15:27 GMT-07:00 Saul Schwartz : Dear all, I am wondering about the social conventions (stated or unstated) for citing and/or quoting material from the Siouan Listserv. On the one hand, the List is archived for anyone to view here (http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A0=SIOUAN), so it is in some sense a public text. On the other hand, there is a strong sense of community among members of the List, and I have a feeling that we sometimes forget that we’re talking to each other in what is essentially a public forum (in the sense that the public can listen in on our conversation; one has to be a member to contribute, of course). I would be interested to hear general thoughts or thoughts related to the specific case described below. For example, I am currently working on an article/dissertation chapter about how the relationship between “language” and “culture” is changing for many American Indians who no longer speak their heritage languages. Specifically, I am trying point out the irony that while many people support language revitalization because they believe that “the language” is essential for “the culture,” revitalization efforts themselves often remove heritage languages from their traditional cultural contexts in an effort to make them more relevant to learners—for example, by coming up with Siouan calques for English idioms. After discussing some examples from the literature and my own experiences working with Jimm’s Ioway, Otoe-Missouria Language Project, I wanted to mention some of the reactions on the List to the recent request to translate “curiouser and curiouser” fromAlice in Wonderland; specifically, I wanted to quote parts of Bryan’s, Jimm’s, and Willem’s responses. I am including an excerpt from the draft of the paper below to give some context, but the paragraph that includes information from the Siouan Listserv is the second to last one. Has a convention for citation and/or quotation already been established for the List? Are posts assumed to be citable and/or quotable unless otherwise stated? Do we expect someone wanting to cite and/or quote a post to contact the poster off-list to request permission before doing so? Etc.... All best, Saul Ironically, while efforts to revitalize heritage languages are often motivated by a belief that “the language” is an essential part of “the culture,” language revitalization itself often ends up separating codes from their traditionally associated cultural settings. David Samuels (2006), for example, discusses how conflicts between Apache traditionalists, who believe the language is too powerful for young speakers, and Christians, who believe the language is too un-Christian for their children, have narrowed the kind of language that can be taught in the community to object identification—in other words, children are learning a version of the language stripped of its indexical associations with traditional culture practices. But, as an Apache bilingual teacher wonders, if children are only learning how to use Apache to order a cheeseburger, what’s the point? (2006:551). M. Eleanor Nevins (2004) finds language classes are controversial in another Apache community because they fail to teach communicative competence, that is, social conventions for interaction that make particular codes culturally significant means of communication. Meeks reports similar developments in the Yukon, where educational routines used to teach Kaska in school settings conflinteractional conventions and language socialization ideologies. Furthermore, these educational routines “emphasiz[e] the referential aspect of language while downplaying all other indexical dimensions, and thereby diminish their sustainability as complex systems of and for communication” (2010:126). In their research on Pueblo groups in the Southwest,Debenport (xxxx) and Whiteley (xxxx) also found conflicts between language revitalization and cultural priorities. Many Tewas and Hopis believe that outsiders should not have access to their languages and thus oppose revitalization efforts that decontextualize codes from community-internal interpersonal interactions and recontextualize them in forms that can circulate beyond the community (e.g., online, in books, in schools attended by Navajo or other non-Pueblo children, etc.). By refusing to support such language revitalization efforts, community members are saying in effect that keeping their language private is more important to them than maintaining the code. Jocelyn Ahlers provides another example of how languages can become separated from their traditionally associated cultures in her description of how moribund languages are used to perform Native identities through memorized texts, a speech style she calls “Native Language as Identity Marker” (2006:62). She concludes that “this speech style adds to the body of evidence that language use is not indexical with cultural . . . identity, but rather performative of it” (2006:72). By this I understand her to mean that, unlike other kinds of code-switching, in this case a speaker sends a message about their identity by their code choice alone—what they are saying in the code refers to nothing outside itself (denotatively, indexically, or otherwise) because it is “code-switching, by a nonfluent speaker, to a noncomprehending audience” (2006:69). In the case of these memorized speeches, a code performs an identity without referring to anything cultural. Whiteley (2003:715) offers a similar interpretation of speeches by younger generations at Haida memorial potlatches, and the Dauenhauers note an analogous development in written Tlingit when those who have no or little knowledge of the language “use literacy for its decorative and symbolic effect or impression: for example, ‘Merry Christmas’ in Tlingit on corporate windows or Christmas cards” (1998:89). To draw from my own experience, the Ioway, Otoe-Missouria Language Project (IOMLP) makes a special effort to embed language in culturally significant contexts that are also applicable to modern day life. For example, the IOMLP designed and printed a tee shirt that includes a traditional floral design, a diagram representing the shared histories of the Iowa, Otoe-Missouria, and closely related Winnebago peoples (all labeled by their Chiwere endo- or exo-nyms), an image of an elder and a child wearing traditional ceremonial dance clothes, and a sentence in Chiwere that translates, ‘The language honors our elders and teaches our children.’ Similarly, the IOMLP designed mugs that include the Chiwere phrase for ‘I love my coffee’ with the image of an Oneota-style ceramic vessel superimposed over a medicine wheel. While the IOMLP makes a special effort to embed language in culturally rich contexts, the Project is all too familiar with the opposite possibility: that traditional language can be used in contexts far removed from traditional cultural practices and values. The director of the Project often receives requests to calque English idioms, for example, “Go green!” (for a tribal environmental awareness program) or “I [heart icon] boobies!” (for breast cancer awareness bracelets). He has also been asked to provide Chiwere equivalents for terms from the video gameHalo. These requests are met with ambivalence since they have no connection to traditional cultural practices or can even seem antithetical to them. For example, the request for “I [heart icon] boobies!” provoked a lesson on traditional attitudes toward body parts, body functions, and sexuality. And when I explained to the IOMLP whatHalo is (a first-person shooter, i.e., rather violent, video game), the director expressed reservations that Chiwere language be associated with it at all. In some cases, then, indigenous languages can be used not just for cultural practices that are seen as untraditional (ordering a cheeseburger) but also anti-traditional (ones that promote dominant society attitudes toward sex, violence, etc.). This phenomenon is not limited to Chiwere, however, and many people involved in Siouan language documentation and revitalization receive similar requests. John Koontz, for example, received so many requests to translate stock English phrases as well as names for children and pets into Omaha-Ponca that he posted his general response to such questions on the FAQ section of his website. Once, he was even asked (presumably as a joke) for a Native American name for an RV; he responded in kind withHotanke, an Anglicized spelling of the Dakotan word for ‘Winnebago’ (Winnebago is a popular brand of RV in the United States, much to the chagrin of the Winnebago Indians). Recently, a request appeared on the Siouan Listserv to translate a line fromAlice in Wonderland (“curiouser and curiouser, cried Alice”) into various Siouan languages for some kind of polyglot compilation. While some found the intellectual challenge of translating a Victorian neologism into Siouan languages intriguing, others were less receptive to the request because of its perceived triviality and irrelevance to Native communities: “It’s a more distinguished request than pet names and such, but it’s not the kind of translation work I would prefer to spend my time on. Why don’t people ask us to translate Microsoft Word or a K-12 curriculum or something important?” and “I have other priorities and am unclear on the need for [a translation of] the particular quote from a story which has nothing in common with Native American culture. . . . To spend time on the translation of materials that have no immediate application to the language communities is nonsensical and, for my part, a waste of time.” One linguist shared his general guidelines for responding to such requests: “One has to pick and choose. If it is short and culturally appropriate, I generally agree to it. . . . Then other requests have to be nixed, like the set of ‘Spring Break’ phrases I once was asked to translate, things like ‘I am so drunk,’ and ‘Where is the bathroom?’” In short, while language revitalization seeks to expand opportunities for the continued use of heritage languages by making them seem more applicable to current social conditions, there is a danger that the codes may become disassociated from the traditional cultures that motivate their revitalization in the first place. If what we care about is not only preserving linguistic diversity (in the sense of grammatical structures) but also preserving distinctive cultural worldviews and lifeways by maintaining heritage languages, then we have won the battle while losing the war if people are only learning and using heritage languages to participate in the practices of the dominant society. -- Manage your subscription athttp://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy:listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- *********************************************************** Bryan James Gordon, MA Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology University of Arizona *********************************************************** -- Manage your subscription athttp://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com --Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu.Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com Bryan James Gordon, MA Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology University of Arizona *********************************************************** --Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu.Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com --Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu.Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com --Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu.Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From george.wilmes at gmail.com Tue Apr 29 23:36:26 2014 From: george.wilmes at gmail.com (George Wilmes) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2014 18:36:26 -0500 Subject: citation/quotation conventions for list? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Whatever decision the group arrives at, I wonder if the listserv can be programmed to automatically append something to every message, such as "To cite this posting, …" followed by a short sample citation? It would be even better if it could be programmed to generate the actual citation that should be used, but that might be asking too much. On Tue, Apr 29, 2014 at 12:11 PM, bruce Ingham wrote: > I think that Bryan's ideas on the subject are very sensible practical and > will encourage non-academics to participate. > > Bruce > > On 29 Apr 2014, at 02:53, Bryan James Gordon > wrote: > > Conference gáthaⁿdi witáⁿbe-mázhi-tʰe íⁿtha-mázhi Mark, thigíni údaⁿ > maⁿníⁿ kaⁿbthégaⁿ. > > Mark raises a very important point about non-academics' access. I agree > that we should give this some detailed attention at the conference, but I > want us to keep non-academic audiences, especially non-linguists in Native > communities, in mind. Us academics have rules to follow, and our citation > practices are interwoven with ideologies of due credit, verifiability and > (!!!!) intellectual property. We enforce these rules on each other, but > personally I don't believe we have any business enforcing them on Native > communities (many of whom have objected to linguists' complicity in the > "theft" of their languages and are fighting back along lines of > intellectual property), nice as it may be to be properly cited. I know that > my reasoning may sound a bit harsh to some of my fellow academics, but I > hope that we can abstain from demanding citation practices from > non-academics nonetheless. > > Bryan > > > 2014-04-28 9:05 GMT-07:00 Mark Awakuni-Swetland < > mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu>: > >> Aloha all, >> >> I am just now catching up with this timely conversation regarding >> quotation/citation conventions. >> >> While I will be unable to travel to this year’s SCLConf, can I encourage >> you all to brainstorm some protocols for how to cite the SIOUANList? >> >> >> >> I recognize that the List is a resource for both academic and community >> folks. >> >> >> >> I do not want to burden or hinder non-academics from using the List and >> Archives. However a set of examples for how to cite List sources would be >> helpful to those wanting to cite sources as expected by journal and book >> publishers, MA & PhD committees, and other senior faculty. >> >> >> >> Several of you have already provided some approaches on this topic. >> >> >> >> Would someone be willing to spearhead a discussion on this at the >> conference? >> >> >> >> Many thanks for considering this request. >> >> >> >> Mark Awakuni-Swetland >> >> >> >> >> >> Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. >> >> Associate Professor >> >> Anthropology & Ethnic Studies >> >> Native American Studies >> >> University of Nebraska >> >> Oldfather Hall 841 >> >> Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 >> >> >> >> Office: 402-472-3455 >> >> FAX: 402-472-9642 >> >> http://omahalanguage.unl.edu >> >> http://omahaponca.unl.edu >> >> >> >> “Tenixa uqpatha egoN”, a biama winisi akHa. >> >> >> >> Lincoln Gem and Mineral Club, Inc. >> >> Post Office Box 5342 >> >> Lincoln, NE 68505-0342 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf >> Of *Catherine Rudin >> *Sent:* Thursday, April 24, 2014 9:22 PM >> *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU >> >> *Subject:* Re: citation/quotation conventions for list? >> >> >> >> I also have cited List messages on occasion, though I think only in >> pretty informal contexts like conference presentations. As you point out, >> Saul, it is a public text, and I think it's legit to cite it the same way >> you would cite any online resource. >> >> Perhaps it's good for us all to remind ourselves that everything we write >> to the List IS not only public but permanently archived... >> >> C. >> >> >>> Bryan James Gordon 04/24/14 5:59 PM >>> >> >> Hi Saul, >> >> >> >> I've cited Siouan List messages a few times before, often because the >> List is the only place I can find the relevant claims or data in an easily >> accessible form. I certainly welcome having my own List messages cited. >> That being said, for academic venues we have to keep in mind that the List >> is not peer-reviewed in the ordinary sense, and it's hard to know how on- >> or off-the-record things are. I'd like to continue your conversation about >> the relationship between language and culture (and also take part more >> actively in other Siouan stuff like helping out with edited volumes), but >> right now I'm frantically trying to finish my comprehensive exams so I'll >> have to put that off until the conference. Keep up the good work! >> >> >> >> Bryan >> >> >> >> 2014-04-24 15:27 GMT-07:00 Saul Schwartz : >> >> Dear all, >> >> >> >> I am wondering about the social conventions (stated or unstated) for >> citing and/or quoting material from the Siouan Listserv. On the one hand, >> the List is archived for anyone to view here ( >> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A0=SIOUAN), so it is in some >> sense a public text. On the other hand, there is a strong sense of >> community among members of the List, and I have a feeling that we sometimes >> forget that we’re talking to each other in what is essentially a public >> forum (in the sense that the public can listen in on our conversation; one >> has to be a member to contribute, of course). I would be interested to hear >> general thoughts or thoughts related to the specific case described below. >> >> >> >> For example, I am currently working on an article/dissertation chapter >> about how the relationship between “language” and “culture” is changing for >> many American Indians who no longer speak their heritage languages. >> Specifically, I am trying point out the irony that while many people >> support language revitalization because they believe that “the language” is >> essential for “the culture,” revitalization efforts themselves often remove >> heritage languages from their traditional cultural contexts in an effort to >> make them more relevant to learners—for example, by coming up with Siouan >> calques for English idioms. After discussing some examples from the >> literature and my own experiences working with Jimm’s Ioway, Otoe-Missouria >> Language Project, I wanted to mention some of the reactions on the List to >> the recent request to translate “curiouser and curiouser” from *Alice in >> Wonderland*; specifically, I wanted to quote parts of Bryan’s, Jimm’s, >> and Willem’s responses. I am including an excerpt from the draft of the >> paper below to give some context, but the paragraph that includes >> information from the Siouan Listserv is the second to last one. >> >> >> >> Has a convention for citation and/or quotation already been established >> for the List? Are posts assumed to be citable and/or quotable unless >> otherwise stated? Do we expect someone wanting to cite and/or quote a post >> to contact the poster off-list to request permission before doing so? >> Etc.... >> >> >> >> All best, >> >> Saul >> >> >> >> Ironically, while efforts to revitalize heritage languages are often >> motivated by a belief that “the language” is an essential part of “the >> culture,” language revitalization itself often ends up separating codes >> from their traditionally associated cultural settings. David Samuels >> (2006), for example, discusses how conflicts between Apache >> traditionalists, who believe the language is too powerful for young >> speakers, and Christians, who believe the language is too un-Christian for >> their children, have narrowed the kind of language that can be taught in >> the community to object identification—in other words, children are >> learning a version of the language stripped of its indexical associations >> with traditional culture practices. But, as an Apache bilingual teacher >> wonders, if children are only learning how to use Apache to order a >> cheeseburger, what’s the point? (2006:551). M. Eleanor Nevins (2004) finds >> language classes are controversial in another Apache community because they >> fail to teach communicative competence, that is, social conventions for >> interaction that make particular codes culturally significant means of >> communication. >> >> >> >> Meeks reports similar developments in the Yukon, where educational >> routines used to teach Kaska in school settings conflict with Dene >> interactional conventions and language socialization ideologies. >> Furthermore, these educational routines “emphasiz[e] the referential aspect >> of language while downplaying all other indexical dimensions, and thereby >> diminish their sustainability as complex systems of and for communication” >> (2010:126). >> >> >> >> In their research on Pueblo groups in the Southwest, Debenport (xxxx) >> and Whiteley (xxxx) also found conflicts between language revitalization >> and cultural priorities. Many Tewas and Hopis believe that outsiders should >> not have access to their languages and thus oppose revitalization efforts >> that decontextualize codes from community-internal interpersonal >> interactions and recontextualize them in forms that can circulate beyond >> the community (e.g., online, in books, in schools attended by Navajo or >> other non-Pueblo children, etc.). By refusing to support such language >> revitalization efforts, community members are saying in effect that keeping >> their language private is more important to them than maintaining the code. >> >> >> >> Jocelyn Ahlers provides another example of how languages can become >> separated from their traditionally associated cultures in her description >> of how moribund languages are used to perform Native identities through >> memorized texts, a speech style she calls “Native Language as Identity >> Marker” (2006:62). She concludes that “this speech style adds to the body >> of evidence that language use is not indexical with cultural . . . >> identity, but rather performative of it” (2006:72). By this I understand >> her to mean that, unlike other kinds of code-switching, in this case a >> speaker sends a message about their identity by their code choice >> alone—what they are saying in the code refers to nothing outside itself >> (denotatively, indexically, or otherwise) because it is “code-switching, by >> a nonfluent speaker, to a noncomprehending audience” (2006:69). In the case >> of these memorized speeches, a code performs an identity without referring >> to anything cultural. Whiteley (2003:715) offers a similar interpretation >> of speeches by younger generations at Haida memorial potlatches, and the >> Dauenhauers note an analogous development in written Tlingit when those who >> have no or little knowledge of the language “use literacy for its >> decorative and symbolic effect or impression: for example, ‘Merry >> Christmas’ in Tlingit on corporate windows or Christmas cards” (1998:89). >> >> >> >> To draw from my own experience, the Ioway, Otoe-Missouria Language >> Project (IOMLP) makes a special effort to embed language in culturally >> significant contexts that are also applicable to modern day life. For >> example, the IOMLP designed and printed a tee shirt that includes a >> traditional floral design, a diagram representing the shared histories of >> the Iowa, Otoe-Missouria, and closely related Winnebago peoples (all >> labeled by their Chiwere endo- or exo-nyms), an image of an elder and a >> child wearing traditional ceremonial dance clothes, and a sentence in >> Chiwere that translates, ‘The language honors our elders and teaches our >> children.’ Similarly, the IOMLP designed mugs that include the Chiwere >> phrase for ‘I love my coffee’ with the image of an Oneota-style ceramic >> vessel superimposed over a medicine wheel. >> >> >> >> While the IOMLP makes a special effort to embed language in culturally >> rich contexts, the Project is all too familiar with the opposite >> possibility: that traditional language can be used in contexts far removed >> from traditional cultural practices and values. The director of the Project >> often receives requests to calque English idioms, for example, “Go green!” >> (for a tribal environmental awareness program) or “I [heart icon] boobies!” >> (for breast cancer awareness bracelets). He has also been asked to provide >> Chiwere equivalents for terms from the video game *Halo*. These requests >> are met with ambivalence since they have no connection to traditional >> cultural practices or can even seem antithetical to them. For example, the >> request for “I [heart icon] boobies!” provoked a lesson on traditional >> attitudes toward body parts, body functions, and sexuality. And when I >> explained to the IOMLP what *Halo* is (a first-person shooter, i.e., >> rather violent, video game), the director expressed reservations that >> Chiwere language be associated with it at all. In some cases, then, >> indigenous languages can be used not just for cultural practices that are >> seen as untraditional (ordering a cheeseburger) but also anti-traditional >> (ones that promote dominant society attitudes toward sex, violence, etc.). >> >> >> >> This phenomenon is not limited to Chiwere, however, and many people >> involved in Siouan language documentation and revitalization receive >> similar requests. John Koontz, for example, received so many requests to >> translate stock English phrases as well as names for children and pets into >> Omaha-Ponca that he posted his general response to such questions on the >> FAQ section of his website. Once, he was even asked (presumably as a joke) >> for a Native American name for an RV; he responded in kind with *Hotanke*, >> an Anglicized spelling of the Dakotan word for ‘Winnebago’ (Winnebago is a >> popular brand of RV in the United States, much to the chagrin of the >> Winnebago Indians). >> >> >> >> Recently, a request appeared on the Siouan Listserv to translate a line >> from *Alice in Wonderland* (“curiouser and curiouser, cried Alice”) into >> various Siouan languages for some kind of polyglot compilation. While some >> found the intellectual challenge of translating a Victorian neologism into >> Siouan languages intriguing, others were less receptive to the request >> because of its perceived triviality and irrelevance to Native communities: >> “It’s a more distinguished request than pet names and such, but it’s not >> the kind of translation work I would prefer to spend my time on. Why don’t >> people ask us to translate Microsoft Word or a K-12 curriculum or something >> important?” and “I have other priorities and am unclear on the need for [a >> translation of] the particular quote from a story which has nothing in >> common with Native American culture. . . . To spend time on the translation >> of materials that have no immediate application to the language communities >> is nonsensical and, for my part, a waste of time.” One linguist shared his >> general guidelines for responding to such requests: “One has to pick and >> choose. If it is short and culturally appropriate, I generally agree to it. >> . . . Then other requests have to be nixed, like the set of ‘Spring Break’ >> phrases I once was asked to translate, things like ‘I am so drunk,’ and >> ‘Where is the bathroom?’” >> >> >> >> In short, while language revitalization seeks to expand opportunities for >> the continued use of heritage languages by making them seem more applicable >> to current social conditions, there is a danger that the codes may become >> disassociated from the traditional cultures that motivate their >> revitalization in the first place. If what we care about is not only >> preserving linguistic diversity (in the sense of grammatical structures) >> but also preserving distinctive *cultural* worldviews and lifeways by >> maintaining heritage languages, then we have won the battle while losing >> the war if people are only learning and using heritage languages to >> participate in the practices of the dominant society. >> >> -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's >> DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from >> Yahoo.com >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> *********************************************************** >> Bryan James Gordon, MA >> Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology >> University of Arizona >> *********************************************************** >> >> -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's >> DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from >> Yahoo.com >> >> -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's >> DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from >> Yahoo.com >> -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's >> DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from >> Yahoo.com >> > > > > -- > *********************************************************** > Bryan James Gordon, MA > Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology > University of Arizona > *********************************************************** > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's > DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from > Yahoo.com > > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's > DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from > Yahoo.com > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Wed Apr 30 13:49:39 2014 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2014 13:49:39 +0000 Subject: citation/quotation conventions for list? In-Reply-To: <535FF4E90200008E000B43B1@hermes.wsc.edu> Message-ID: Alright, we need to fill in the blank here. I think what Mark was asking was: What is the proper scholarly format for citing postings from the Siouan list? So, if I want to quote Catherine for my dissertation, what does it look like? Would it be: “George -- Good idea!” (Rudin, Catherine. Re: citation/quotation conventions for list?. SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu. April 29, 2014 6:52 PM.) Or what? Does it vary according to different styles and venues? We need to figure this out before we can append that message. Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Catherine Rudin Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2014 6:52 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: citation/quotation conventions for list? George -- Good idea! >>> George Wilmes 04/29/14 6:38 PM >>> Whatever decision the group arrives at, I wonder if the listserv can be programmed to automatically append something to every message, such as "To cite this posting, …" followed by a short sample citation? It would be even better if it could be programmed to generate the actual citation that should be used, but that might be asking too much. On Tue, Apr 29, 2014 at 12:11 PM, bruce Ingham > wrote: I think that Bryan's ideas on the subject are very sensible practical and will encourage non-academics to participate. Bruce On 29 Apr 2014, at 02:53, Bryan James Gordon > wrote: Conference gáthaⁿdi witáⁿbe-mázhi-tʰe íⁿtha-mázhi Mark, thigíni údaⁿ maⁿníⁿ kaⁿbthégaⁿ. Mark raises a very important point about non-academics' access. I agree that we should give this some detailed attention at the conference, but I want us to keep non-academic audiences, especially non-linguists in Native communities, in mind. Us academics have rules to follow, and our citation practices are interwoven with ideologies of due credit, verifiability and (!!!!) intellectual property. We enforce these rules on each other, but personally I don't believe we have any business enforcing them on Native communities (many of whom have objected to linguists' complicity in the "theft" of their languages and are fighting back along lines of intellectual property), nice as it may be to be properly cited. I know that my reasoning may sound a bit harsh to some of my fellow academics, but I hope that we can abstain from demanding citation practices from non-academics nonetheless. Bryan 2014-04-28 9:05 GMT-07:00 Mark Awakuni-Swetland >: Aloha all, I am just now catching up with this timely conversation regarding quotation/citation conventions. While I will be unable to travel to this year’s SCLConf, can I encourage you all to brainstorm some protocols for how to cite the SIOUANList? I recognize that the List is a resource for both academic and community folks. I do not want to burden or hinder non-academics from using the List and Archives. However a set of examples for how to cite List sources would be helpful to those wanting to cite sources as expected by journal and book publishers, MA & PhD committees, and other senior faculty. Several of you have already provided some approaches on this topic. Would someone be willing to spearhead a discussion on this at the conference? Many thanks for considering this request. Mark Awakuni-Swetland Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. Associate Professor Anthropology & Ethnic Studies Native American Studies University of Nebraska Oldfather Hall 841 Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 Office: 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 http://omahalanguage.unl.edu http://omahaponca.unl.edu “Tenixa uqpatha egoN”, a biama winisi akHa. Lincoln Gem and Mineral Club, Inc. Post Office Box 5342 Lincoln, NE 68505-0342 From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Catherine Rudin Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 9:22 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: citation/quotation conventions for list? I also have cited List messages on occasion, though I think only in pretty informal contexts like conference presentations. As you point out, Saul, it is a public text, and I think it's legit to cite it the same way you would cite any online resource. Perhaps it's good for us all to remind ourselves that everything we write to the List IS not only public but permanently archived... C. >>> Bryan James Gordon 04/24/14 5:59 PM >>> Hi Saul, I've cited Siouan List messages a few times before, often because the List is the only place I can find the relevant claims or data in an easily accessible form. I certainly welcome having my own List messages cited. That being said, for academic venues we have to keep in mind that the List is not peer-reviewed in the ordinary sense, and it's hard to know how on- or off-the-record things are. I'd like to continue your conversation about the relationship between language and culture (and also take part more actively in other Siouan stuff like helping out with edited volumes), but right now I'm frantically trying to finish my comprehensive exams so I'll have to put that off until the conference. Keep up the good work! Bryan 2014-04-24 15:27 GMT-07:00 Saul Schwartz >: Dear all, I am wondering about the social conventions (stated or unstated) for citing and/or quoting material from the Siouan Listserv. On the one hand, the List is archived for anyone to view here (http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A0=SIOUAN), so it is in some sense a public text. On the other hand, there is a strong sense of community among members of the List, and I have a feeling that we sometimes forget that we’re talking to each other in what is essentially a public forum (in the sense that the public can listen in on our conversation; one has to be a member to contribute, of course). I would be interested to hear general thoughts or thoughts related to the specific case described below. For example, I am currently working on an article/dissertation chapter about how the relationship between “language” and “culture” is changing for many American Indians who no longer speak their heritage languages. Specifically, I am trying point out the irony that while many people support language revitalization because they believe that “the language” is essential for “the culture,” revitalization efforts themselves often remove heritage languages from their traditional cultural contexts in an effort to make them more relevant to learners—for example, by coming up with Siouan calques for English idioms. After discussing some examples from the literature and my own experiences working with Jimm’s Ioway, Otoe-Missouria Language Project, I wanted to mention some of the reactions on the List to the recent request to translate “curiouser and curiouser” from Alice in Wonderland; specifically, I wanted to quote parts of Bryan’s, Jimm’s, and Willem’s responses. I am including an excerpt from the draft of the paper below to give some context, but the paragraph that includes information from the Siouan Listserv is the second to last one. Has a convention for citation and/or quotation already been established for the List? Are posts assumed to be citable and/or quotable unless otherwise stated? Do we expect someone wanting to cite and/or quote a post to contact the poster off-list to request permission before doing so? Etc.... All best, Saul Ironically, while efforts to revitalize heritage languages are often motivated by a belief that “the language” is an essential part of “the culture,” language revitalization itself often ends up separating codes from their traditionally associated cultural settings. David Samuels (2006), for example, discusses how conflicts between Apache traditionalists, who believe the language is too powerful for young speakers, and Christians, who believe the language is too un-Christian for their children, have narrowed the kind of language that can be taught in the community to object identification—in other words, children are learning a version of the language stripped of its indexical associations with traditional culture practices. But, as an Apache bilingual teacher wonders, if children are only learning how to use Apache to order a cheeseburger, what’s the point? (2006:551). M. Eleanor Nevins (2004) finds language classes are controversial in another Apache community because they fail to teach communicative competence, that is, social conventions for interaction that make particular codes culturally significant means of communication. Meeks reports similar developments in the Yukon, where educational routines used to teach Kaska in school settings conflict with Dene interactional conventions and language socialization ideologies. Furthermore, these educational routines “emphasiz[e] the referential aspect of language while downplaying all other indexical dimensions, and thereby diminish their sustainability as complex systems of and for communication” (2010:126). In their research on Pueblo groups in the Southwest, Debenport (xxxx) and Whiteley (xxxx) also found conflicts between language revitalization and cultural priorities. Many Tewas and Hopis believe that outsiders should not have access to their languages and thus oppose revitalization efforts that decontextualize codes from community-internal interpersonal interactions and recontextualize them in forms that can circulate beyond the community (e.g., online, in books, in schools attended by Navajo or other non-Pueblo children, etc.). By refusing to support such language revitalization efforts, community members are saying in effect that keeping their language private is more important to them than maintaining the code. Jocelyn Ahlers provides another example of how languages can become separated from their traditionally associated cultures in her description of how moribund languages are used to perform Native identities through memorized texts, a speech style she calls “Native Language as Identity Marker” (2006:62). She concludes that “this speech style adds to the body of evidence that language use is not indexical with cultural . . . identity, but rather performative of it” (2006:72). By this I understand her to mean that, unlike other kinds of code-switching, in this case a speaker sends a message about their identity by their code choice alone—what they are saying in the code refers to nothing outside itself (denotatively, indexically, or otherwise) because it is “code-switching, by a nonfluent speaker, to a noncomprehending audience” (2006:69). In the case of these memorized speeches, a code performs an identity without referring to anything cultural. Whiteley (2003:715) offers a similar interpretation of speeches by younger generations at Haida memorial potlatches, and the Dauenhauers note an analogous development in written Tlingit when those who have no or little knowledge of the language “use literacy for its decorative and symbolic effect or impression: for example, ‘Merry Christmas’ in Tlingit on corporate windows or Christmas cards” (1998:89). To draw from my own experience, the Ioway, Otoe-Missouria Language Project (IOMLP) makes a special effort to embed language in culturally significant contexts that are also applicable to modern day life. For example, the IOMLP designed and printed a tee shirt that includes a traditional floral design, a diagram representing the shared histories of the Iowa, Otoe-Missouria, and closely related Winnebago peoples (all labeled by their Chiwere endo- or exo-nyms), an image of an elder and a child wearing traditional ceremonial dance clothes, and a sentence in Chiwere that translates, ‘The language honors our elders and teaches our children.’ Similarly, the IOMLP designed mugs that include the Chiwere phrase for ‘I love my coffee’ with the image of an Oneota-style ceramic vessel superimposed over a medicine wheel. While the IOMLP makes a special effort to embed language in culturally rich contexts, the Project is all too familiar with the opposite possibility: that traditional language can be used in contexts far removed from traditional cultural practices and values. The director of the Project often receives requests to calque English idioms, for example, “Go green!” (for a tribal environmental awareness program) or “I [heart icon] boobies!” (for breast cancer awareness bracelets). He has also been asked to provide Chiwere equivalents for terms from the video game Halo. These requests are met with ambivalence since they have no connection to traditional cultural practices or can even seem antithetical to them. For example, the request for “I [heart icon] boobies!” provoked a lesson on traditional attitudes toward body parts, body functions, and sexuality. And when I explained to the IOMLP what Halo is (a first-person shooter, i.e., rather violent, video game), the director expressed reservations that Chiwere language be associated with it at all. In some cases, then, indigenous languages can be used not just for cultural practices that are seen as untraditional (ordering a cheeseburger) but also anti-traditional (ones that promote dominant society attitudes toward sex, violence, etc.). This phenomenon is not limited to Chiwere, however, and many people involved in Siouan language documentation and revitalization receive similar requests. John Koontz, for example, received so many requests to translate stock English phrases as well as names for children and pets into Omaha-Ponca that he posted his general response to such questions on the FAQ section of his website. Once, he was even asked (presumably as a joke) for a Native American name for an RV; he responded in kind with Hotanke, an Anglicized spelling of the Dakotan word for ‘Winnebago’ (Winnebago is a popular brand of RV in the United States, much to the chagrin of the Winnebago Indians). Recently, a request appeared on the Siouan Listserv to translate a line from Alice in Wonderland (“curiouser and curiouser, cried Alice”) into various Siouan languages for some kind of polyglot compilation. While some found the intellectual challenge of translating a Victorian neologism into Siouan languages intriguing, others were less receptive to the request because of its perceived triviality and irrelevance to Native communities: “It’s a more distinguished request than pet names and such, but it’s not the kind of translation work I would prefer to spend my time on. Why don’t people ask us to translate Microsoft Word or a K-12 curriculum or something important?” and “I have other priorities and am unclear on the need for [a translation of] the particular quote from a story which has nothing in common with Native American culture. . . . To spend time on the translation of materials that have no immediate application to the language communities is nonsensical and, for my part, a waste of time.” One linguist shared his general guidelines for responding to such requests: “One has to pick and choose. If it is short and culturally appropriate, I generally agree to it. . . . Then other requests have to be nixed, like the set of ‘Spring Break’ phrases I once was asked to translate, things like ‘I am so drunk,’ and ‘Where is the bathroom?’” In short, while language revitalization seeks to expand opportunities for the continued use of heritage languages by making them seem more applicable to current social conditions, there is a danger that the codes may become disassociated from the traditional cultures that motivate their revitalization in the first place. If what we care about is not only preserving linguistic diversity (in the sense of grammatical structures) but also preserving distinctive cultural worldviews and lifeways by maintaining heritage languages, then we have won the battle while losing the war if people are only learning and using heritage languages to participate in the practices of the dominant society. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- *********************************************************** Bryan James Gordon, MA Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology University of Arizona *********************************************************** -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- *********************************************************** Bryan James Gordon, MA Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology University of Arizona *********************************************************** -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mawakuni-swetland2 at UNL.EDU Wed Apr 30 14:41:11 2014 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at UNL.EDU (Mark Awakuni-Swetland) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2014 14:41:11 +0000 Subject: citation/quotation conventions for list? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Aho WagaqthoN, That is what I was looking for but the chemo-brain had kept me for formulating the question properly. UdoN, ebthegoN. WagoNze Uthixide From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 8:50 AM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: citation/quotation conventions for list? Alright, we need to fill in the blank here. I think what Mark was asking was: What is the proper scholarly format for citing postings from the Siouan list? So, if I want to quote Catherine for my dissertation, what does it look like? Would it be: “George -- Good idea!” (Rudin, Catherine. Re: citation/quotation conventions for list?. SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu. April 29, 2014 6:52 PM.) Or what? Does it vary according to different styles and venues? We need to figure this out before we can append that message. Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Catherine Rudin Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2014 6:52 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: citation/quotation conventions for list? George -- Good idea! >>> George Wilmes 04/29/14 6:38 PM >>> Whatever decision the group arrives at, I wonder if the listserv can be programmed to automatically append something to every message, such as "To cite this posting, …" followed by a short sample citation? It would be even better if it could be programmed to generate the actual citation that should be used, but that might be asking too much. On Tue, Apr 29, 2014 at 12:11 PM, bruce Ingham > wrote: I think that Bryan's ideas on the subject are very sensible practical and will encourage non-academics to participate. Bruce On 29 Apr 2014, at 02:53, Bryan James Gordon > wrote: Conference gáthaⁿdi witáⁿbe-mázhi-tʰe íⁿtha-mázhi Mark, thigíni údaⁿ maⁿníⁿ kaⁿbthégaⁿ. Mark raises a very important point about non-academics' access. I agree that we should give this some detailed attention at the conference, but I want us to keep non-academic audiences, especially non-linguists in Native communities, in mind. Us academics have rules to follow, and our citation practices are interwoven with ideologies of due credit, verifiability and (!!!!) intellectual property. We enforce these rules on each other, but personally I don't believe we have any business enforcing them on Native communities (many of whom have objected to linguists' complicity in the "theft" of their languages and are fighting back along lines of intellectual property), nice as it may be to be properly cited. I know that my reasoning may sound a bit harsh to some of my fellow academics, but I hope that we can abstain from demanding citation practices from non-academics nonetheless. Bryan 2014-04-28 9:05 GMT-07:00 Mark Awakuni-Swetland >: Aloha all, I am just now catching up with this timely conversation regarding quotation/citation conventions. While I will be unable to travel to this year’s SCLConf, can I encourage you all to brainstorm some protocols for how to cite the SIOUANList? I recognize that the List is a resource for both academic and community folks. I do not want to burden or hinder non-academics from using the List and Archives. However a set of examples for how to cite List sources would be helpful to those wanting to cite sources as expected by journal and book publishers, MA & PhD committees, and other senior faculty. Several of you have already provided some approaches on this topic. Would someone be willing to spearhead a discussion on this at the conference? Many thanks for considering this request. Mark Awakuni-Swetland Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. Associate Professor Anthropology & Ethnic Studies Native American Studies University of Nebraska Oldfather Hall 841 Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 Office: 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 http://omahalanguage.unl.edu http://omahaponca.unl.edu “Tenixa uqpatha egoN”, a biama winisi akHa. Lincoln Gem and Mineral Club, Inc. Post Office Box 5342 Lincoln, NE 68505-0342 From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Catherine Rudin Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 9:22 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: citation/quotation conventions for list? I also have cited List messages on occasion, though I think only in pretty informal contexts like conference presentations. As you point out, Saul, it is a public text, and I think it's legit to cite it the same way you would cite any online resource. Perhaps it's good for us all to remind ourselves that everything we write to the List IS not only public but permanently archived... C. >>> Bryan James Gordon 04/24/14 5:59 PM >>> Hi Saul, I've cited Siouan List messages a few times before, often because the List is the only place I can find the relevant claims or data in an easily accessible form. I certainly welcome having my own List messages cited. That being said, for academic venues we have to keep in mind that the List is not peer-reviewed in the ordinary sense, and it's hard to know how on- or off-the-record things are. I'd like to continue your conversation about the relationship between language and culture (and also take part more actively in other Siouan stuff like helping out with edited volumes), but right now I'm frantically trying to finish my comprehensive exams so I'll have to put that off until the conference. Keep up the good work! Bryan 2014-04-24 15:27 GMT-07:00 Saul Schwartz >: Dear all, I am wondering about the social conventions (stated or unstated) for citing and/or quoting material from the Siouan Listserv. On the one hand, the List is archived for anyone to view here (http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A0=SIOUAN), so it is in some sense a public text. On the other hand, there is a strong sense of community among members of the List, and I have a feeling that we sometimes forget that we’re talking to each other in what is essentially a public forum (in the sense that the public can listen in on our conversation; one has to be a member to contribute, of course). I would be interested to hear general thoughts or thoughts related to the specific case described below. For example, I am currently working on an article/dissertation chapter about how the relationship between “language” and “culture” is changing for many American Indians who no longer speak their heritage languages. Specifically, I am trying point out the irony that while many people support language revitalization because they believe that “the language” is essential for “the culture,” revitalization efforts themselves often remove heritage languages from their traditional cultural contexts in an effort to make them more relevant to learners—for example, by coming up with Siouan calques for English idioms. After discussing some examples from the literature and my own experiences working with Jimm’s Ioway, Otoe-Missouria Language Project, I wanted to mention some of the reactions on the List to the recent request to translate “curiouser and curiouser” from Alice in Wonderland; specifically, I wanted to quote parts of Bryan’s, Jimm’s, and Willem’s responses. I am including an excerpt from the draft of the paper below to give some context, but the paragraph that includes information from the Siouan Listserv is the second to last one. Has a convention for citation and/or quotation already been established for the List? Are posts assumed to be citable and/or quotable unless otherwise stated? Do we expect someone wanting to cite and/or quote a post to contact the poster off-list to request permission before doing so? Etc.... All best, Saul Ironically, while efforts to revitalize heritage languages are often motivated by a belief that “the language” is an essential part of “the culture,” language revitalization itself often ends up separating codes from their traditionally associated cultural settings. David Samuels (2006), for example, discusses how conflicts between Apache traditionalists, who believe the language is too powerful for young speakers, and Christians, who believe the language is too un-Christian for their children, have narrowed the kind of language that can be taught in the community to object identification—in other words, children are learning a version of the language stripped of its indexical associations with traditional culture practices. But, as an Apache bilingual teacher wonders, if children are only learning how to use Apache to order a cheeseburger, what’s the point? (2006:551). M. Eleanor Nevins (2004) finds language classes are controversial in another Apache community because they fail to teach communicative competence, that is, social conventions for interaction that make particular codes culturally significant means of communication. Meeks reports similar developments in the Yukon, where educational routines used to teach Kaska in school settings conflict with Dene interactional conventions and language socialization ideologies. Furthermore, these educational routines “emphasiz[e] the referential aspect of language while downplaying all other indexical dimensions, and thereby diminish their sustainability as complex systems of and for communication” (2010:126). In their research on Pueblo groups in the Southwest, Debenport (xxxx) and Whiteley (xxxx) also found conflicts between language revitalization and cultural priorities. Many Tewas and Hopis believe that outsiders should not have access to their languages and thus oppose revitalization efforts that decontextualize codes from community-internal interpersonal interactions and recontextualize them in forms that can circulate beyond the community (e.g., online, in books, in schools attended by Navajo or other non-Pueblo children, etc.). By refusing to support such language revitalization efforts, community members are saying in effect that keeping their language private is more important to them than maintaining the code. Jocelyn Ahlers provides another example of how languages can become separated from their traditionally associated cultures in her description of how moribund languages are used to perform Native identities through memorized texts, a speech style she calls “Native Language as Identity Marker” (2006:62). She concludes that “this speech style adds to the body of evidence that language use is not indexical with cultural . . . identity, but rather performative of it” (2006:72). By this I understand her to mean that, unlike other kinds of code-switching, in this case a speaker sends a message about their identity by their code choice alone—what they are saying in the code refers to nothing outside itself (denotatively, indexically, or otherwise) because it is “code-switching, by a nonfluent speaker, to a noncomprehending audience” (2006:69). In the case of these memorized speeches, a code performs an identity without referring to anything cultural. Whiteley (2003:715) offers a similar interpretation of speeches by younger generations at Haida memorial potlatches, and the Dauenhauers note an analogous development in written Tlingit when those who have no or little knowledge of the language “use literacy for its decorative and symbolic effect or impression: for example, ‘Merry Christmas’ in Tlingit on corporate windows or Christmas cards” (1998:89). To draw from my own experience, the Ioway, Otoe-Missouria Language Project (IOMLP) makes a special effort to embed language in culturally significant contexts that are also applicable to modern day life. For example, the IOMLP designed and printed a tee shirt that includes a traditional floral design, a diagram representing the shared histories of the Iowa, Otoe-Missouria, and closely related Winnebago peoples (all labeled by their Chiwere endo- or exo-nyms), an image of an elder and a child wearing traditional ceremonial dance clothes, and a sentence in Chiwere that translates, ‘The language honors our elders and teaches our children.’ Similarly, the IOMLP designed mugs that include the Chiwere phrase for ‘I love my coffee’ with the image of an Oneota-style ceramic vessel superimposed over a medicine wheel. While the IOMLP makes a special effort to embed language in culturally rich contexts, the Project is all too familiar with the opposite possibility: that traditional language can be used in contexts far removed from traditional cultural practices and values. The director of the Project often receives requests to calque English idioms, for example, “Go green!” (for a tribal environmental awareness program) or “I [heart icon] boobies!” (for breast cancer awareness bracelets). He has also been asked to provide Chiwere equivalents for terms from the video game Halo. These requests are met with ambivalence since they have no connection to traditional cultural practices or can even seem antithetical to them. For example, the request for “I [heart icon] boobies!” provoked a lesson on traditional attitudes toward body parts, body functions, and sexuality. And when I explained to the IOMLP what Halo is (a first-person shooter, i.e., rather violent, video game), the director expressed reservations that Chiwere language be associated with it at all. In some cases, then, indigenous languages can be used not just for cultural practices that are seen as untraditional (ordering a cheeseburger) but also anti-traditional (ones that promote dominant society attitudes toward sex, violence, etc.). This phenomenon is not limited to Chiwere, however, and many people involved in Siouan language documentation and revitalization receive similar requests. John Koontz, for example, received so many requests to translate stock English phrases as well as names for children and pets into Omaha-Ponca that he posted his general response to such questions on the FAQ section of his website. Once, he was even asked (presumably as a joke) for a Native American name for an RV; he responded in kind with Hotanke, an Anglicized spelling of the Dakotan word for ‘Winnebago’ (Winnebago is a popular brand of RV in the United States, much to the chagrin of the Winnebago Indians). Recently, a request appeared on the Siouan Listserv to translate a line from Alice in Wonderland (“curiouser and curiouser, cried Alice”) into various Siouan languages for some kind of polyglot compilation. While some found the intellectual challenge of translating a Victorian neologism into Siouan languages intriguing, others were less receptive to the request because of its perceived triviality and irrelevance to Native communities: “It’s a more distinguished request than pet names and such, but it’s not the kind of translation work I would prefer to spend my time on. Why don’t people ask us to translate Microsoft Word or a K-12 curriculum or something important?” and “I have other priorities and am unclear on the need for [a translation of] the particular quote from a story which has nothing in common with Native American culture. . . . To spend time on the translation of materials that have no immediate application to the language communities is nonsensical and, for my part, a waste of time.” One linguist shared his general guidelines for responding to such requests: “One has to pick and choose. If it is short and culturally appropriate, I generally agree to it. . . . Then other requests have to be nixed, like the set of ‘Spring Break’ phrases I once was asked to translate, things like ‘I am so drunk,’ and ‘Where is the bathroom?’” In short, while language revitalization seeks to expand opportunities for the continued use of heritage languages by making them seem more applicable to current social conditions, there is a danger that the codes may become disassociated from the traditional cultures that motivate their revitalization in the first place. If what we care about is not only preserving linguistic diversity (in the sense of grammatical structures) but also preserving distinctive cultural worldviews and lifeways by maintaining heritage languages, then we have won the battle while losing the war if people are only learning and using heritage languages to participate in the practices of the dominant society. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- *********************************************************** Bryan James Gordon, MA Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology University of Arizona *********************************************************** -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- *********************************************************** Bryan James Gordon, MA Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology University of Arizona *********************************************************** -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Tue Apr 8 18:38:07 2014 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 18:38:07 +0000 Subject: Number 'nine' in Chiwere. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ? Except in Dakotan the *Cy and *Cr clusters fall together. Thanks for that caveat, John. It?s something I will need to be aware of in developing my paper this year! :) Best, Rory -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jekoontz at MSN.COM Tue Apr 8 18:10:32 2014 From: jekoontz at MSN.COM (John Koontz) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 12:10:32 -0600 Subject: Number 'nine' in Chiwere. In-Reply-To: <000801cf4bbe$99267ea0$cb737be0$@com> Message-ID: I'm sorry, some of my text comes out blue. The quotes are marked with >. > Your take on the pronunciations are what I have found as well. Maximilian was really big on the "x" sound which he represented as "ch". Most of his entries with "ch" have a note that says something like "ch guttural." There are two ch's in German. The "gutteral" (velar) one in ach, and the "soft" (or palatal) one in ich. So I expect he's trying to make it clear it's the more velar of the two readings for ch. > And I am also of the opinion that his "sch" is our "sh" sound. Yes. That's the German spelling for what English writes sh. Both actually from Proto-German sk, cf. English doublets like skirt and shirt, or skipper and ship (where the one with k is generally a loan term). > He also simply uses an "s" where he felt it was needed. Although some of his spellings aren't always consistent when he is going with the same word (used in other areas), he does seem to have taken great care to represent pronunciations as accurately as possible. Most of his terms have little notes (as I mentioned above) with them. And from what I've seen of his use of "tsch", it seems to be a "ch" pronounced somewhat forcefully (I don't know the technical term for that). He's essentially transcribing what he hears phonetically, not writing in a standard more or less phonemic orthography. Tsch is standard German spelling for what English writes ch. A forceful one would probably be an aspirated one. The less aspiration, the more it would sound like English j, where German would have orthographic difficulties. > I hadn't considered the idea of the term being reinvented in Osage. I guess it shouldn't be surprising that a culture that has those types of conventions might fill a need in the same manner as before. It depends a lot on the cultural context, but number words are often forgotten or borrowed. For some reason this is not especially true in Indo-European, so it's kind of unexpected. I remember that Omaha speakers were particularly prone to substituting English numerals (and date terms, etc.) even in conversation that was otherwise Omaha. > I'd wondered about the "xce" as well as far as being an intensifier. In Otoe-Missouria, you have a few variants that I've come across. First is more of the "h" sound with "-hji". But I've also often found that where you have a sort of "intrusive h", there are often "x" variants (for example, hga/xga for "white"). So I've also seen "-xji" as well. And to top it off, there are a lot of "s" sounds that work in there as well. I hear the "s" version pronounced often where I work. So that suffix would be "-sji" (other examples would be "wanuhje/wanusje" for "animal"). Another thing to consider is perhaps Maximilian's "ch" for the "xce" portion might be that "k" sound that emerges with glottal stops (I don't know the technical term for it but Hamilton and Irvin document it a lot in their Ioway books). The =xti ~ =xc^i intensifier enclitic, generally glossed 'very' often used in a sense of 'real' or 'just, exactly' is common with 'one'. > ? Nine, gr??bena ? tscheh ? u?ningk??? (the whole run together); i. e.,? ten less one; they also say,? schangk? lebraN (krebraN) =che wiN niNg(e?)ten the one it-lacks che = he with aspirated c (ts), 'the (vertical, inanimate)'. Os che < PDh *the, with *th > ch before e (and i). In general 'vertical' (in a pile) is used with quantities. I agree with Rory that the historical form is s^aNkka, a word that appears widely in Eastern North America, so historically a loan, but I imagine that more analytical terms are fairly common. You can find 'two fours' for 'eight' here and there, and sometimes you find variations like 'sitting on it, two' vs. 'two sixes' , in various languages. We're used to thinking of number systems as fixed, and our modern arithmetic and commercial traditions insist on it, but in many cultural contexts there's less "standardization" or numerals. > I looked up ?nine? in Carolyn Quitero?s Osage Dictionary, and the first (long) term is the only one she seems to have listed: l?br? hce w??ke This is the same term., of course, with the initial nasal between wiN and (n)iNge 'to lack' omitted. > Dhegiha *gr- generally goes to l- in Osage and Kaw, but apparently in Maximilian?s time the leading /g/ was still present. His ??? and his ?eh? apparently both represent what we write as /e/, while the ?e? between the ?b? and the ?n? presumably represents schwa. The ?n? in the first word would be /r/ followed by a nasal vowel. In Omaha, the corresponding word for ?ten? at that time was gr?br?, now shortened to gr?b?. I agree with all this analysis by Rory. The corresponding form in Dakotan (wIN)kc^emna(N) shows us that Proto-Siouan 'ten' is something like *kyepraN. Some people might prefer to think of it as *kyewraN. I don't think there's any contrast between *pr and *wr except "part of speech," which essentially encodes collections of phonological context. Except in Dakotan the *Cy and *Cr clusters fall together. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mawakuni-swetland2 at UNL.EDU Thu Apr 10 22:10:02 2014 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at UNL.EDU (Mark Awakuni-Swetland) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2014 22:10:02 +0000 Subject: Here is a little curious inquiry for all of us to ponder Message-ID: Aloha all, something for the list to consider. Many thanks! Mark A-S Received from william wolkowski 2009zww at gmail.com ALICE IN OMAHA Dear Colleague, For the sesquicentennial in 2015 I am preparing a polyglot graphic study of this quote from chapter 2 in Carroll's Alice in Wonderland "Curiouser and curiouser, cried Alice" If you wish to include it in this study, would you please help me with a translation? Thank you. Best regards Wolkowski Sorbonne Universites UPMC -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Fri Apr 11 00:28:29 2014 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm Goodtracks) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2014 19:28:29 -0500 Subject: Here is a little curious inquiry for all of us to ponder In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ho, Mark! Pi dana ke shige ho ritawe hanax^un ke. I find the quote to be rather curious. However, I haven?t any immediate thoughts that come to me as to how one would render it in Baxoje ? Jiwere. In part, the problem with any effective translation of this quote, is the lack of context. Just what is becoming evermore curious? The answer is not yours to give, but it does await clarification of Mr. William Wolkowki and for what application does he want a translation of this Alice in Wonderland statement. Meanwhile, vaya bien en su tratamiento y su cura de su enfermidad. H?ne br?ge r?grahiwi ke. Wak?nda nat^?rigradan m?na ho. Jimm G. Goodtracks B?xoje Jiw?re Language Project PO Box 55 Tecumseh, KS 66542 Uk?nadheda waw??arana, ich^? nah?, inj? et?we war?xi?eda ad??e?dan ? w?gi?i kigr??ige ?thgare ke. ?In the middle of resisting, the language got caught, only showing her face in ceremony, like she?s ashamed of her scars.? (www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FUgDutdauQ&feature=share From: Mark Awakuni-Swetland Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 5:10 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Here is a little curious inquiry for all of us to ponder Aloha all, something for the list to consider. Many thanks! Mark A-S Received from william wolkowski 2009zww at gmail.com ALICE IN OMAHA Dear Colleague, For the sesquicentennial in 2015 I am preparing a polyglot graphic study of this quote from chapter 2 in Carroll's Alice in Wonderland "Curiouser and curiouser, cried Alice" If you wish to include it in this study, would you please help me with a translation? Thank you. Best regards Wolkowski Sorbonne Universites UPMC -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aigotm at YAHOO.COM Fri Apr 11 02:41:15 2014 From: aigotm at YAHOO.COM (Emilia Aigotti) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2014 19:41:15 -0700 Subject: Here is a little curious inquiry for all of us to ponder In-Reply-To: <5EB5AC39B40546758A372409D653E554@AsusLaptop> Message-ID: Jimm, are any parts of that video/poem in Baxoje-Jiwere? Emilia ________________________________ From: Jimm Goodtracks To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 7:28 PM Subject: Re: Here is a little curious inquiry for all of us to ponder Ho, Mark!? Pi dana ke shige ho ritawe hanax^un ke. ? I find the quote to be rather curious.? However, I haven?t any immediate thoughts that come to me as to how one would render it in Baxoje ? Jiwere.? In part, the problem with any effective translation of this quote, is the lack of context.? Just what is becoming evermore curious?? The answer is not yours to give, but it does await clarification of Mr. William Wolkowki and for what application does he want a translation of this Alice in Wonderland statement. ? Meanwhile, vaya bien? en su tratamiento y su cura de su enfermidad.? H?ne? br?ge? r?grahiwi ke.? Wak?nda nat^?rigradan m?na ho. ? Jimm G. Goodtracks B?xoje Jiw?re Language Project PO Box 55 Tecumseh, KS 66542 Uk?nadheda waw??arana, ich^? nah?, inj? et?we war?xi?eda ad??e?dan ? w?gi?i kigr??ige ?thgare ke. ?In the middle of resisting, the language got caught, only showing her face in ceremony, like she?s ashamed of her scars.? (www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FUgDutdauQ&feature=share ? ?? From: Mark Awakuni-Swetland Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 5:10 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Here is a little curious inquiry for all of us to ponder ? Aloha all, something for the list to consider. Many thanks! Mark A-S ? Received from william wolkowski 2009zww at gmail.com ? ALICE IN OMAHA ? Dear Colleague, For the sesquicentennial in 2015 I am preparing a polyglot graphic study of this quote from chapter 2 in Carroll's Alice in Wonderland "Curiouser and curiouser, cried Alice" If you wish to include it in this study, would you please help me with a translation? Thank you. Best regards Wolkowski Sorbonne Universites UPMC -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU Fri Apr 11 06:37:32 2014 From: linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU (Bryan James Gordon) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2014 23:37:32 -0700 Subject: Here is a little curious inquiry for all of us to ponder In-Reply-To: <5EB5AC39B40546758A372409D653E554@AsusLaptop> Message-ID: I agree with Jimm. Even if you dig into the context enough to translate it, the context belongs to a certain segment of English-speaking society during a certain period of time. Contemporary English speakers find Lewis Carroll hard to wrap our brains around, because his vision is not only a fantasy world, but it's based on obsessions and paranoias that are not as prevalent today, or are not imagined in the same way anymore. It's hard to translate stuff like that into any language, let alone a language from people with a very different view of the world. It's a more distinguished request than pet names and such, but it's not the kind of translation work I would prefer to spend my time on. Why don't people ask us to translate Microsoft Word, or a K-12 curriculum, or something important? Ey?? n??-a Mark? ?ska-na? wath?shka?-ta?ga thig?ni ma?n?? sha?sh??xti ka?bth?ga?. Wak??da w?bthaha? ma?bth??. 2014-04-10 17:28 GMT-07:00 Jimm Goodtracks : > Ho, Mark! Pi dana ke shige ho ritawe hanax^un ke. > > I find the quote to be rather curious. However, I haven?t any immediate > thoughts that come to me as to how one would render it in Baxoje ? Jiwere. > In part, the problem with any effective translation of this quote, is the > lack of context. Just what is becoming evermore curious? The answer is > not yours to give, but it does await clarification of Mr. William Wolkowki > and for what application does he want a translation of this Alice in > Wonderland statement. > > Meanwhile, vaya bien en su tratamiento y su cura de su enfermidad. H?ne > br?ge r?grahiwi ke. Wak?nda nat^?rigradan m?na ho. > > Jimm G. Goodtracks > B?xoje Jiw?re Language Project > PO Box 55 > Tecumseh, KS 66542 > > > Uk?nadheda waw??arana, ich^? nah?, inj? et?we war?xi?eda ad??e?dan ? > w?gi?i kigr??ige ?thgare ke. > ?In the middle of resisting, the language got caught, only showing her > face in ceremony, like she?s ashamed of her scars.? > (www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FUgDutdauQ&feature=share > > > > > *From:* Mark Awakuni-Swetland > *Sent:* Thursday, April 10, 2014 5:10 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Here is a little curious inquiry for all of us to ponder > > > *Aloha all, something for the list to consider. Many thanks!* > > *Mark A-S* > > > > Received from william wolkowski 2009zww at gmail.com > > > > *ALICE IN OMAHA* > > > > Dear Colleague, > > For the sesquicentennial in 2015 > > I am preparing a polyglot graphic study > > of this quote from chapter 2 > > in Carroll's Alice in Wonderland > > "Curiouser and curiouser, cried Alice" > > If you wish to include it in this study, > > would you please help me > > with a translation? > > Thank you. > > Best regards > > Wolkowski > > Sorbonne Universites UPMC > > > > > > > -- *********************************************************** Bryan James Gordon, MA Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology University of Arizona *********************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Fri Apr 11 12:30:59 2014 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM (Sky Campbell) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 07:30:59 -0500 Subject: Here is a little curious inquiry for all of us to ponder In-Reply-To: <5EB5AC39B40546758A372409D653E554@AsusLaptop> Message-ID: The only thing that springs to mind for me is to express something along the lines of "Whatever it is, I really want to know it." in an attempt to get at the heart of what curious is (times 2 hehehe). Dagure's? ihapunge hagundasji ke. I could render it as "Whatever it is, I don't know what it is. But I really want to." but that feels a bit cumbersome. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 7:28 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Here is a little curious inquiry for all of us to ponder Ho, Mark! Pi dana ke shige ho ritawe hanax^un ke. I find the quote to be rather curious. However, I haven?t any immediate thoughts that come to me as to how one would render it in Baxoje ? Jiwere. In part, the problem with any effective translation of this quote, is the lack of context. Just what is becoming evermore curious? The answer is not yours to give, but it does await clarification of Mr. William Wolkowki and for what application does he want a translation of this Alice in Wonderland statement. Meanwhile, vaya bien en su tratamiento y su cura de su enfermidad. H?ne br?ge r?grahiwi ke. Wak?nda nat^?rigradan m?na ho. Jimm G. Goodtracks B?xoje Jiw?re Language Project PO Box 55 Tecumseh, KS 66542 Uk?nadheda waw??arana, ich^? nah?, inj? et?we war?xi?eda ad??e?dan ? w?gi?i kigr??ige ?thgare ke. ?In the middle of resisting, the language got caught, only showing her face in ceremony, like she?s ashamed of her scars.? (www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FUgDutdauQ &feature=share From: Mark Awakuni-Swetland Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 5:10 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Here is a little curious inquiry for all of us to ponder Aloha all, something for the list to consider. Many thanks! Mark A-S Received from william wolkowski 2009zww at gmail.com ALICE IN OMAHA Dear Colleague, For the sesquicentennial in 2015 I am preparing a polyglot graphic study of this quote from chapter 2 in Carroll's Alice in Wonderland "Curiouser and curiouser, cried Alice" If you wish to include it in this study, would you please help me with a translation? Thank you. Best regards Wolkowski Sorbonne Universites UPMC -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Fri Apr 11 12:56:53 2014 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM (Sky Campbell) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 07:56:53 -0500 Subject: Number 'nine' in Chiwere. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes, I suspect the "ch" is the "velar" one as well. Maximillian almost exclusively uses "j" as it is pronounced in French (which is noted for each time it is used). He'll have something like: clear (water), ni-br?j? (French); they give this name to the Mississippi But he also uses a "dj" to represent more of our "j" sound and also points out when the "j" is as in German. This next entry illustrates both: Sea, nih-chonn-dj? (dje French); the Ayowas say, nih-chon-je (je German) What I also found interesting is that what we use a "ch" sound for nowadays (for example, "ch'e" for "die"), he has spelled as "ts??h". I'm curious about the "ts" rather than the "tsch" he often uses (and even the odd "tj"). Speaking of "tj", I wonder if Maximilian's time period during his travels (early 1830s) was part of a transition period moving from more of a "t" sound to "ch." For example, he has listed "tj??" for "buffalo" but has "teh-p?-seh-nih" with the "teh" sounding much more Ponca/Omaha. Nowadays we have "che" for buffalo and his use of "t" for one and "tj" for the other has got me thinking :). Plus where we have more ? and ? now, back then you see more "s" sounds. Fascinating stuff :). One thing to note though is that Maximilian notes that he got his pronunciations from Major Dougherty rather than an Otoe or Missouria speaker. I'm also interested in the "intensifier" being used with the number one. This is my first experience with it (assuming that is what it is) and the first I've heard that it is common. I'll keep an eye out for it :). Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of John Koontz Sent: Tuesday, April 8, 2014 1:11 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Number 'nine' in Chiwere. I'm sorry, some of my text comes out blue. The quotes are marked with >. > Your take on the pronunciations are what I have found as well. Maximilian was really big on the "x" sound which he represented as "ch". Most of his entries with "ch" have a note that says something like "ch guttural." There are two ch's in German. The "gutteral" (velar) one in ach, and the "soft" (or palatal) one in ich. So I expect he's trying to make it clear it's the more velar of the two readings for ch. > And I am also of the opinion that his "sch" is our "sh" sound. Yes. That's the German spelling for what English writes sh. Both actually from Proto-German sk, cf. English doublets like skirt and shirt, or skipper and ship (where the one with k is generally a loan term). > He also simply uses an "s" where he felt it was needed. Although some of his spellings aren't always consistent when he is going with the same word (used in other areas), he does seem to have taken great care to represent pronunciations as accurately as possible. Most of his terms have little notes (as I mentioned above) with them. And from what I've seen of his use of "tsch", it seems to be a "ch" pronounced somewhat forcefully (I don't know the technical term for that). He's essentially transcribing what he hears phonetically, not writing in a standard more or less phonemic orthography. Tsch is standard German spelling for what English writes ch. A forceful one would probably be an aspirated one. The less aspiration, the more it would sound like English j, where German would have orthographic difficulties. > I hadn't considered the idea of the term being reinvented in Osage. I guess it shouldn't be surprising that a culture that has those types of conventions might fill a need in the same manner as before. It depends a lot on the cultural context, but number words are often forgotten or borrowed. For some reason this is not especially true in Indo-European, so it's kind of unexpected. I remember that Omaha speakers were particularly prone to substituting English numerals (and date terms, etc.) even in conversation that was otherwise Omaha. > I'd wondered about the "xce" as well as far as being an intensifier. In Otoe-Missouria, you have a few variants that I've come across. First is more of the "h" sound with "-hji". But I've also often found that where you have a sort of "intrusive h", there are often "x" variants (for example, hga/xga for "white"). So I've also seen "-xji" as well. And to top it off, there are a lot of "s" sounds that work in there as well. I hear the "s" version pronounced often where I work. So that suffix would be "-sji" (other examples would be "wanuhje/wanusje" for "animal"). Another thing to consider is perhaps Maximilian's "ch" for the "xce" portion might be that "k" sound that emerges with glottal stops (I don't know the technical term for it but Hamilton and Irvin document it a lot in their Ioway books). The =xti ~ =xc^i intensifier enclitic, generally glossed 'very' often used in a sense of 'real' or 'just, exactly' is common with 'one'. > ? Nine, gr??bena ? tscheh ? u?ningk?? ? (the whole run together); i. e., ? ten less one; they also say, ? schangk? lebraN (krebraN) =che wiN niNg(e?) ten the one it-lacks che = he with aspirated c (ts), 'the (vertical, inanimate)'. Os che < PDh *the, with *th > ch before e (and i). In general 'vertical' (in a pile) is used with quantities. I agree with Rory that the historical form is s^aNkka, a word that appears widely in Eastern North America, so historically a loan, but I imagine that more analytical terms are fairly common. You can find 'two fours' for 'eight' here and there, and sometimes you find variations like 'sitting on it, two' vs. 'two sixes' , in various languages. We're used to thinking of number systems as fixed, and our modern arithmetic and commercial traditions insist on it, but in many cultural contexts there's less "standardization" or numerals. > I looked up ?nine? in Carolyn Quitero?s Osage Dictionary, and the first (long) term is the only one she seems to have listed: l?br? hce w??ke This is the same term., of course, with the initial nasal between wiN and (n)iNge 'to lack' omitted. > Dhegiha *gr- generally goes to l- in Osage and Kaw, but apparently in Maximilian?s time the leading /g/ was still present. His ??? and his ?eh? apparently both represent what we write as /e/, while the ?e? between the ?b? and the ?n? presumably represents schwa. The ?n? in the first word would be /r/ followed by a nasal vowel. In Omaha, the corresponding word for ?ten? at that time was gr?br?, now shortened to gr?b?. I agree with all this analysis by Rory. The corresponding form in Dakotan (wIN)kc^emna(N) shows us that Proto-Siouan 'ten' is something like *kyepraN. Some people might prefer to think of it as *kyewraN. I don't think there's any contrast between *pr and *wr except "part of speech," which essentially encodes collections of phonological context. Except in Dakotan the *Cy and *Cr clusters fall together. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Fri Apr 11 13:11:59 2014 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM (Sky Campbell) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 08:11:59 -0500 Subject: Aho! (IO -ka in Imperatives) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I just remembered that I needed to respond to this email so I apologize for the delay! Outlook says I replied but I don't remember doing so...perhaps I started it but had to stop. For Dorsey, the ' character that I used actually looks like a ? (not sure if you can see that...think of a superscripted reversed "c"). Does that help? Last week I had someone come to my office and they were knowledgeable enough to have me bring this up to them. They looked at it and recognized it but couldn't immediately remember the details on it. They said they'd think on it and I expect to follow up with them soon. Your mention of kare/gare perhaps being a male imperative is interesting. I mentioned in another email how this time period (1830-40s) seems to show a shift away from some of the Ponca/Omaha morphemes to today's versions. Perhaps, as you suggested, this could be another. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of John Koontz Sent: Thursday, March 6, 2014 4:16 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! (IO -ka in Imperatives) In k'a what is '? If it is aspiration (opening quote) this sounds a little like the ubiquitous the (th = aspirate) in OP. It actually alternates with the inanimate articles (the ~ khe ~ dhaN ~ ge) and is associated with something like pastness. The alternants indicate something about the "shape" of the action, as they indicate the shape of the noun when they are inanimate articles. (And khe 'long, lying' occurs with animate things like snakes.) I am pretty sure that the sense of these forms in OP is not pastness per se but 'deducibility'. As a set they indicate that the action is deduced to have occurred (in the shape indicated). This contrasts with the ama particle that occurs with reported things (and conditions any preceding plural-proximate marker to be bi instead of I). The "proximate" term is one I have borrowed from Algonquian usage and is not very suitable. The general idea is that the action can be observed to occur and takes place under the independent volition of the third person singular subject. And this is (for some reason) marked with a plural marker on the third person subject. Only Dhegiha has this pattern. But it keeps coming up because I need to explain that a=i is 'he (proximate) said' in most places, even though it looks like 'they said'. There is a non-proximate, or obviative e 'he said', but it is vanishingly rare in texts. The a=i is also 'they said', of course. (The IO analogs of e and a=i are e and a=wi.) We have to be a little careful with associating ga's. Siouan languages are full of forms that look the same and mean something different. In OP ga is the masculine imperative, the "yonder" demonstrative, and the "by striking" instrumental besides the places where it turns up superficially because gi has contracted with a following a. There's also places where aN 'we' is followed by the locative prefix a- 'on' producing aNga-. From your examples I think you are safe in associating the cases of kare where there is an imperative meaning. If you have kare alternating indeterminately with re and in more modern examples completely replaced by re, maybe you just have a case of a historical change in usage observed in progress? I can think of all kinds of things that are somewhat irregular in OP and Da because they are changing and are controlled by the formulas the speaker has heard various others use, by their sense of style as it applies in a specific utterance, and so on. Because there is an male imperative particle ga in OP it is worth wondering if =ka=re originally marked male imperatives in IO. If it works at all like OP (where the female imperative is =a), I would expect re alone to be the female imperative and to condition the a-grade of preceding ablauting e. In other words, the female imperative would be =a=re, and that initial a would replace any preceding e. It might occasionally show up as an extra element if the preceding vowel wasn't e. So in OP =a=di 'in' changes preceding e to a, ppahe ~ ppahadi, and sometimes the a appears in forms like ppamu ~ ppamuadi, tti ~ ttiadi, or sometimes you just get =di and sometimes a preceding e doesn't change either. These last, simpler patterns are, of course, the modern ones. It looks like Whitman says the imperative does condition e > a. So, for what it's worth, that pattern is consistent. Conceivably the IO imperative in the early 1800 was something like the OP one, but with the additional element =re following it. The OP imperative can be extended (for male speakers anyway) by =hau, which is essentially the declarative. Sort of like "yep!" at the end of a sentence, maybe. And sort of like the =re in IO, except that the =re is always there are ends up surviving as the only element visible. As far as female speech forms replacing male speech forms, this is actually something that can happen. Or the reverse. And apart from apparently straight up changes like that, it is also possible that the difference between the two forms was actually something like a strong suggestion (=ka=re) vs. a milder, politer one (=a=re) and men are more culturally enabled to make strong suggestions. However, fashions in these things change continually. In general the sentence final particles are highly unstable in Siouan languages, and even closely related languages (or the same language at different periods) have different systems. It was suggested that ka might be 'yon'. We could even guess that ka (or ga) in an imperative might actually be historically the ga demonstrative, used as an imperative particle. Sort of "eat, that, do it!" I'm kind of reminded of the use of ese in Chicano Spanish, though I think that is more of a male declarative. I've never really figured it out! _____ Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 22:30:11 -0600 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Aho! To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Yes, "naha" is an article going along the lines of "the", "that which", "the one who", etc. You've given me a lot to think about and a lot of terminology that I'll have to wrap my head around since I'm not familiar with it. My assistants and I spent over 3 hours today tracking down all the instances of Merrill and Hamilton's use of this -ga/-ka and mapped them to a grid on a large dry-erase board in an effort to try to find some kind of common element among all of them. Unfortunately we had no luck. We tried to think of everything we could think of when it came to those verbs. Were they transitive or intransitive? Animate or inanimate objects? Singular or plural? Was the object "known" to the speaker (meaning was the speaker referring to something specific...sort of along the lines of the idea of "that" I mentioned earlier)? Of course we know that we aren't looking for every possible criteria since there are many we don't know about (like some of the ideas you mentioned). I've mentioned several of our theories such as "that", "now", "in like manner", etc. But while we were plugging away I was perusing Dorsey's vocabulary slips and found this: k'a (masc) (adverb) - of action in past time, not continuing into the present And the example he gives is: Swagaxe k'a - you did write then (but you do not write now) So in this context, I wonder if perhaps it could be along the lines of (to use an example from before) "Look at the snake" perhaps with the idea that you were looking at the snake before but aren't now and I want you to do so again. This may not be correct though since Dorsey mentions "see also" and has the endings "ke", "ki", etc. so this may represent the end of a statement and not simply an adverb that can be used where needed. Dorsey also has a rather enigmatic term "kare" (or perhaps "k'are") where he mentions "It seems to imply that the thought or desire was not gratified" but he doesn't just list this term with that explanation but rather just uses it with examples such as: Ji kare h?rawi - we thought that he would have come hither (but he did not come) I'm noting that this is after the verb that they want to attach this to which matches the placement of the enigmatic -ga/-ka. So along these lines, perhaps it could be "Look at the snake" with the idea of I wanted you to look at the snake but you didn't so I am requesting/commanding again since you didn't do it before. Yet another couple theories to add to this :). Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of John Koontz Sent: Wednesday, March 5, 2014 9:00 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Aho! I would guess this pair contrasts something analogous to Omaha-Ponca 'to say' vs. 'to say to'. The 'say' stems are highly irregular in Omaha-Ponca like most Siouan, but underlyingly they are something like e=...he vs. e=gi=...he. So the first persons are ehe 'I said it' (from something like Proto-Dhegiha *e=phe) vs. egiphe 'I said (it) to him'. The third persons are a=i 'they said' vs. ega=i 'they said to him'. I've reconstructed the plural from memory of the logic of the system. What I remember is the unpluralized from ege (e=g(i)...(h)e). The gi element is the dative marker of course and the weird thing about (OP) 'say' is that that comes *before* the pronoun. When gi is followed by the root (h)e it contracts with it. I'm not sure the root is really -he in the third person. The first and second persons are clearly built on e=(gi)=...he, but the inclusive is usually from another verb entirely, and the third person behaves like e by itself in the simple stem and e=g(i)=...e in the dative. The initial e= is presumably an incorporated e 'the aforesaid'. And, of course, this is the quoting verb that follows a quotation. There's a form with initial ga 'yonder' that is used preceding a quotation. The third person is essentially always seen as a=(nothing) or a=i or a=bi with the plural-proximate marker following e and conditioning the a-grade of the stem. (So you almost never get a singular looking form, and if you did it would be just e, and so hard to know from a demonstrative e.) The =(nothing) form of the plural-proximate is current now when no other particle follows. Dorsey always has a=i or a=bi (the latter when the quotation is itself quoted in some way). Anyway, making allowances, I hope, for my poor grasp of IO, I make these e=wa-a naha 'the one who says something' vs. e=wa-g(i)-a naha 'the one who says (something) to someone' I hope I correctly remember naha as an article of some sort. If not ... When you add a dative to something then the object is the dative object and the "direct object" sort of falls out of the agreement pattern. Sometimes it hangs around in the sentence as a noun (or quotation) without governing anything in the verb. What the relationalists called a chomeur. _____ I may have found a clue for "ka." Dorsey has the term: e-wa-na-ha - the speaker; the one speaking Then he has the term: e wa-ka-na-ha - the one who is meant; the person addressed I'm not sure how (or even if) this is related to the "ka" I am asking about but I'm trying to look at it in different ways to see if it fits somehow. Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Fri Apr 11 14:36:07 2014 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm Goodtracks) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 09:36:07 -0500 Subject: Here is a little curious inquiry for all of us to ponder In-Reply-To: <1397184075.92968.YahooMailNeo@web185406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Emilia: If you are speaking of ?Alice in Wonderland? ? No! None of the story/ script has been rendered in IOM, and I believe it is due to a lack of interest. I am still interested here in what motivates William Wolkowski to want a translation of the phrase/ quotation from the story. Jimm From: Emilia Aigotti Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 9:41 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Here is a little curious inquiry for all of us to ponder Jimm, are any parts of that video/poem in Baxoje-Jiwere? Emilia -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jimm Goodtracks To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 7:28 PM Subject: Re: Here is a little curious inquiry for all of us to ponder Ho, Mark! Pi dana ke shige ho ritawe hanax^un ke. I find the quote to be rather curious. However, I haven?t any immediate thoughts that come to me as to how one would render it in Baxoje ? Jiwere. In part, the problem with any effective translation of this quote, is the lack of context. Just what is becoming evermore curious? The answer is not yours to give, but it does await clarification of Mr. William Wolkowki and for what application does he want a translation of this Alice in Wonderland statement. Meanwhile, vaya bien en su tratamiento y su cura de su enfermidad. H?ne br?ge r?grahiwi ke. Wak?nda nat^?rigradan m?na ho. Jimm G. Goodtracks B?xoje Jiw?re Language Project PO Box 55 Tecumseh, KS 66542 Uk?nadheda waw??arana, ich^? nah?, inj? et?we war?xi?eda ad??e?dan ? w?gi?i kigr??ige ?thgare ke. ?In the middle of resisting, the language got caught, only showing her face in ceremony, like she?s ashamed of her scars.? (www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FUgDutdauQ&feature=share From: Mark Awakuni-Swetland Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 5:10 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Here is a little curious inquiry for all of us to ponder Aloha all, something for the list to consider. Many thanks! Mark A-S Received from william wolkowski 2009zww at gmail.com ALICE IN OMAHA Dear Colleague, For the sesquicentennial in 2015 I am preparing a polyglot graphic study of this quote from chapter 2 in Carroll's Alice in Wonderland "Curiouser and curiouser, cried Alice" If you wish to include it in this study, would you please help me with a translation? Thank you. Best regards Wolkowski Sorbonne Universites UPMC -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Fri Apr 11 15:11:45 2014 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm Goodtracks) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 10:11:45 -0500 Subject: Here is a little curious inquiry for all of us to ponder In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mr. Wolkowski: It is nice of you to invite a reading of Chapter 2 in Alice in Wonderland, however, I really have other priorities and remain unclear for the need of your particular quote from the story, which has nothing in common to Native American Culture. Perhaps, you read the reply from Gordon James Bryon on the Siouan Lists, which I think answers very well the perspective of many of us on this Siouan Lists as to time constraints and priorities of side requests that are not directly related to the work, interests and attention of the members. In other words, to spend time on translation of materials that are not of immediate application to the communities in which we represent, is nonsensical and for my part, a waste of my precious time in my later years of this life?s journey. Nevertheless, best to you in whatever it is that you are about. Jimm G Goodtracks Jimm G. Goodtracks B?xoje Jiw?re Language Project PO Box 55 Tecumseh, KS 66542 Uk?nadheda waw??arana, ich^? nah?, inj? et?we war?xi?eda ad??e?dan ? w?gi?i kigr??ige ?thgare ke. ?In the middle of resisting, the language got caught, only showing her face in ceremony, like she?s ashamed of her scars.? (www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FUgDutdauQ&feature=share From: william wolkowski Sent: Friday, April 11, 2014 3:51 AM To: Jimm Goodtracks Subject: Re: Here is a little curious inquiry for all of us to ponder Dear Colleague, Thank you for your kind answer. Please read chapter 2 in Alice for the context. This polyglot graphic study, with 47 languages received so far, will be presented in the US and Europe and published in 2015 for the sesquicentennial. Native languages from the Americas are welcome. I invite you to visit my 33 titles available from amazon.com including "Lewis Carroll: the Spirit and the Letter". Some titles are polyglot (Curie, Poe, Rimbaud, St Benedict, etc). The catalog of LOC Washington holds my "A study in geopoetics and identity..." a compilation of Mickiewicz poem in 109 languages. Best regards Wolkowski Sorbonne Universites UPMC 2014-04-11 2:28 GMT+02:00 Jimm Goodtracks : Ho, Mark! Pi dana ke shige ho ritawe hanax^un ke. I find the quote to be rather curious. However, I haven?t any immediate thoughts that come to me as to how one would render it in Baxoje ? Jiwere. In part, the problem with any effective translation of this quote, is the lack of context. Just what is becoming evermore curious? The answer is not yours to give, but it does await clarification of Mr. William Wolkowki and for what application does he want a translation of this Alice in Wonderland statement. Meanwhile, vaya bien en su tratamiento y su cura de su enfermidad. H?ne br?ge r?grahiwi ke. Wak?nda nat^?rigradan m?na ho. Jimm G. Goodtracks B?xoje Jiw?re Language Project PO Box 55 Tecumseh, KS 66542 Uk?nadheda waw??arana, ich^? nah?, inj? et?we war?xi?eda ad??e?dan ? w?gi?i kigr??ige ?thgare ke. ?In the middle of resisting, the language got caught, only showing her face in ceremony, like she?s ashamed of her scars.? (www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FUgDutdauQ&feature=share From: Mark Awakuni-Swetland Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 5:10 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Here is a little curious inquiry for all of us to ponder Aloha all, something for the list to consider. Many thanks! Mark A-S Received from william wolkowski 2009zww at gmail.com ALICE IN OMAHA Dear Colleague, For the sesquicentennial in 2015 I am preparing a polyglot graphic study of this quote from chapter 2 in Carroll's Alice in Wonderland "Curiouser and curiouser, cried Alice" If you wish to include it in this study, would you please help me with a translation? Thank you. Best regards Wolkowski Sorbonne Universites UPMC -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Fri Apr 11 15:27:42 2014 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm Goodtracks) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 10:27:42 -0500 Subject: Alice translation In-Reply-To: <7AA693EF-2990-4815-B7B9-20A467142228@cox.net> Message-ID: Dear Erik Hanson: I cannot refute what you say below in regard to your statement that Alice in Wonderland, the Bible, Koran and Shakespeare are the most translated and published in various languages of the world. If you say so, I will take it as so on face value. However, I assure you that in the last 115 years here in Indian Country, USA, there has been no interest in these four works of literature on the part of an member of the indigenous communities of the Northern and Southern Plains that represent the Siouan, Caddoan and other indigenous languages families. As such, for my part, I have not available time to spend in satisfying someone?s whims to translate some phrase or work of no consequence to the language communities just for the hell of it, i.e., the sake of making a translation. Such tasks can be given to the idle hands of someone who has nothing better to do with their time. Sincerely, Jimm G. Goodtracks Jimm G. Goodtracks B?xoje Jiw?re Language Project PO Box 55 Tecumseh, KS 66542 Uk?nadheda waw??arana, ich^? nah?, inj? et?we war?xi?eda ad??e?dan ? w?gi?i kigr??ige ?thgare ke. ?In the middle of resisting, the language got caught, only showing her face in ceremony, like she?s ashamed of her scars.? (www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FUgDutdauQ&feature=share -----Original Message----- From: Erik Hanson Sent: Friday, April 11, 2014 9:54 AM To: Jimm Goodtracks Subject: Alice translation Hello: "Alice" is one of the standards that translators deal with and think about. It's the fourth most quoted work in history (after the Bible, Koran, and the complete works of Shakespeare) and the only one of the four both secular and of a manageable size. It has already been translated and published into 125 languages, back to the 1860s and probably a few more unpublished. There is no insult to be read into a desire for a short bit, at least, to be rendered into any/every language. I do question the merits of that particular bit. Regards, Erik Sent from my iPhone, please forgive typos and brevity. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU Fri Apr 11 16:19:11 2014 From: WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU (De Reuse, Willem) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 16:19:11 +0000 Subject: Alice translation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Interesting discussion. I did not know about Alice in Wonderland. As someone who works on Apache, I get a lot of requests for translations, as Apache is one of these "iconic" Native American languages. One has to pick and choose, if it is short and culturally appropriate, I generally agree to it. I remember once translating a short Jewish prayer into Apache. The Apaches liked it. After all Apaches, like Jews, know something about wandering about in the desert. Then other requests have to be nixed, like the set of "Spring Break" phrases I once was asked to translate, things like "I am so drunk", and "where is the bathroom?". Portions of the Bible have more appeal that the other four works. I add a link to a nice example. Thanks Jimm for this. http://iowayotoelang.nativeweb.org/pdf/christmasstory.pdf Another great Bible story that has been used for linguistic work is the Parable of Prodigal son, which has been recorded in many more versions than the New Testament itself, and probably second in number of translations to the Lord's Prayer. One does not have to be a Christian to appreciate this parable is an awfully good story, of almost universal appeal, except maybe to vegans! Willem ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics on behalf of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Friday, April 11, 2014 10:27 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Alice translation Dear Erik Hanson: I cannot refute what you say below in regard to your statement that Alice in Wonderland, the Bible, Koran and Shakespeare are the most translated and published in various languages of the world. If you say so, I will take it as so on face value. However, I assure you that in the last 115 years here in Indian Country, USA, there has been no interest in these four works of literature on the part of an member of the indigenous communities of the Northern and Southern Plains that represent the Siouan, Caddoan and other indigenous languages families. As such, for my part, I have not available time to spend in satisfying someone's whims to translate some phrase or work of no consequence to the language communities just for the hell of it, i.e., the sake of making a translation. Such tasks can be given to the idle hands of someone who has nothing better to do with their time. Sincerely, Jimm G. Goodtracks Jimm G. Goodtracks B?xoje Jiw?re Language Project PO Box 55 Tecumseh, KS 66542 Uk?nadheda waw??arana, ich^? nah?, inj? et?we war?xi?eda ad??e?dan - w?gi?i kigr??ige ?thgare ke. "In the middle of resisting, the language got caught, only showing her face in ceremony, like she's ashamed of her scars." (www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FUgDutdauQ&feature=share -----Original Message----- From: Erik Hanson Sent: Friday, April 11, 2014 9:54 AM To: Jimm Goodtracks Subject: Alice translation Hello: "Alice" is one of the standards that translators deal with and think about. It's the fourth most quoted work in history (after the Bible, Koran, and the complete works of Shakespeare) and the only one of the four both secular and of a manageable size. It has already been translated and published into 125 languages, back to the 1860s and probably a few more unpublished. There is no insult to be read into a desire for a short bit, at least, to be rendered into any/every language. I do question the merits of that particular bit. Regards, Erik Sent from my iPhone, please forgive typos and brevity. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aigotm at YAHOO.COM Fri Apr 11 16:32:41 2014 From: aigotm at YAHOO.COM (aigotm) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 11:32:41 -0500 Subject: Here is a little curious inquiry for all of us to ponder Message-ID: Sorry. I was referring to the link you attached for "Bad Indian". Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device -------- Original message -------- From: Jimm Goodtracks Date:04/11/2014 9:36 AM (GMT-06:00) To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Here is a little curious inquiry for all of us to ponder Emilia: If you are speaking of ?Alice in Wonderland? ? No! None of the story/ script has been rendered in IOM, and I believe it is due to a lack of interest.? I am still interested here in what motivates William Wolkowski to want a translation of the phrase/ quotation from the story. Jimm? ? From: Emilia Aigotti Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 9:41 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Here is a little curious inquiry for all of us to ponder ? Jimm, are any parts of that video/poem in Baxoje-Jiwere? Emilia ? From: Jimm Goodtracks To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 7:28 PM Subject: Re: Here is a little curious inquiry for all of us to ponder ? Ho, Mark!? Pi dana ke shige ho ritawe hanax^un ke. ? I find the quote to be rather curious.? However, I haven?t any immediate thoughts that come to me as to how one would render it in Baxoje ? Jiwere.? In part, the problem with any effective translation of this quote, is the lack of context.? Just what is becoming evermore curious?? The answer is not yours to give, but it does await clarification of Mr. William Wolkowki and for what application does he want a translation of this Alice in Wonderland statement. ? Meanwhile, vaya bien? en su tratamiento y su cura de su enfermidad.? H?ne? br?ge? r?grahiwi ke.? Wak?nda nat^?rigradan m?na ho. ? Jimm G. Goodtracks B?xoje Jiw?re Language Project PO Box 55 Tecumseh, KS 66542 Uk?nadheda waw??arana, ich^? nah?, inj? et?we war?xi?eda ad??e?dan ? w?gi?i kigr??ige ?thgare ke. ?In the middle of resisting, the language got caught, only showing her face in ceremony, like she?s ashamed of her scars.? (www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FUgDutdauQ&feature=share ? ? ? From: Mark Awakuni-Swetland Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 5:10 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Here is a little curious inquiry for all of us to ponder ? Aloha all, something for the list to consider. Many thanks! Mark A-S ? Received from william wolkowski 2009zww at gmail.com ? ALICE IN OMAHA ? Dear Colleague, For the sesquicentennial in 2015 I am preparing a polyglot graphic study of this quote from chapter 2 in Carroll's Alice in Wonderland "Curiouser and curiouser, cried Alice" If you wish to include it in this study, would you please help me with a translation? Thank you. Best regards Wolkowski Sorbonne Universites UPMC ? ? ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Fri Apr 11 15:57:56 2014 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 15:57:56 +0000 Subject: Here is a little curious inquiry for all of us to ponder In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ? "Curiouser and curiouser, cried Alice" Actually, I don?t think the challenge is that unreasonable. The context is simply that a person is encountering events that are increasingly strange, unusual and difficult to explain, and exclaiming upon that. Such a situation could occur in any society. The term ?curious? throws us, because its primary meaning in English is ?eager to learn about something?. But in this context, the meaning is ?strange? or ?weird?. For Omaha and Ponca, I think the appropriate term would probably be ???i? (??zhi?), which also carries the meaning of ?different?, as well as being used as the standard negator (?not?). Next, we have the syntax of the expression. In English, the increasing strangeness is indicated through a device of compounding two instances of the ?strange? adjective in comparative form, using ?and? as a linking conjunction. But Omaha/Ponca, to my knowledge, has no comparative form of adjectives, no general word for ?and?, and in any case would not use that compounded comparative device to indicate that a quality is increasing. Ideally, I think an O/P speaker would reduplicate the adjective and add a continuant marker, probably ?(h)n???, to get the sense of increasing quality. Unfortunately, I don?t know that ??zhi? reduplicates. We do have the word ???i-ro?ro?? (??zhi-tha?tha?), which I have recorded as meaning ?different kinds?. I think ?tha?tha?? is a device that implies ?reduplication of the preceding lexeme?. I?m not sure if it is appropriate for this case, however. Mostly it shows up with numbers and similar terms to suggest grouping according what is indicated by the relevant lexeme, e.g., ?by threes?. So for Alice?s exclamation, I can think of three possibilities. If ??zhi?, ?strange?, reduplicates, then we could have: ?zhizhi hna? Else if ?tha?tha?? works here, we could have: ?zhi-tha?tha? hna? Else if we want to be conservative and fake the reduplication by using ?shi?, ?again?, we could have: shi ?zhi hna? If we are doing O/P contemporary with Lewis Carroll, we would want to add ?i he? at the end, given that Alice is a female speaker and is speaking emphatically. The emphatic part can?t really be conveyed by the story frame ?cried Alice?, because there doesn?t seem to be any word for ?cry out in emphatic speech? in O/P. There is only ???, ?say?, and ?b???, ?scream? or ?yell?. The latter wouldn?t be used to describe a manner of speech, so we would have to use the ?say? word. Since it is a story of factually dubious content, we would want to use ?biama? after ?she said it?. Alice, as the active subject, would probably take ?ak ? a? as her article. So my three guesses are: ??zhizhi hna? i he!? ? biama Alice ak ? a. ??zhi-tha?tha? hna? i he!? ? biama Alice ak ? a. ?Shi ?zhi hna? i he!? ? biama Alice ak ? a. Of the three, I like the first one best if ??zhizhi? is actually a word. Otherwise, I?d probably go with the third. The best recourse would be to ask a native speaker. If any Omaha-Poncanist can improve on this, suggestions are welcome! Otherwise, we might have to concede this round to Sapir and Whorf. :) Cheers, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Bryan James Gordon Sent: Friday, April 11, 2014 1:38 AM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: Here is a little curious inquiry for all of us to ponder I agree with Jimm. Even if you dig into the context enough to translate it, the context belongs to a certain segment of English-speaking society during a certain period of time. Contemporary English speakers find Lewis Carroll hard to wrap our brains around, because his vision is not only a fantasy world, but it's based on obsessions and paranoias that are not as prevalent today, or are not imagined in the same way anymore. It's hard to translate stuff like that into any language, let alone a language from people with a very different view of the world. It's a more distinguished request than pet names and such, but it's not the kind of translation work I would prefer to spend my time on. Why don't people ask us to translate Microsoft Word, or a K-12 curriculum, or something important? Ey?? n??-a Mark? ?ska-na? wath?shka?-ta?ga thig?ni ma?n?? sha?sh??xti ka?bth?ga?. Wak??da w?bthaha? ma?bth??. 2014-04-10 17:28 GMT-07:00 Jimm Goodtracks >: Ho, Mark! Pi dana ke shige ho ritawe hanax^un ke. I find the quote to be rather curious. However, I haven?t any immediate thoughts that come to me as to how one would render it in Baxoje ? Jiwere. In part, the problem with any effective translation of this quote, is the lack of context. Just what is becoming evermore curious? The answer is not yours to give, but it does await clarification of Mr. William Wolkowki and for what application does he want a translation of this Alice in Wonderland statement. Meanwhile, vaya bien en su tratamiento y su cura de su enfermidad. H?ne br?ge r?grahiwi ke. Wak?nda nat^?rigradan m?na ho. Jimm G. Goodtracks B?xoje Jiw?re Language Project PO Box 55 Tecumseh, KS 66542 Uk?nadheda waw??arana, ich^? nah?, inj? et?we war?xi?eda ad??e?dan ? w?gi?i kigr??ige ?thgare ke. ?In the middle of resisting, the language got caught, only showing her face in ceremony, like she?s ashamed of her scars.? (www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FUgDutdauQ&feature=share From: Mark Awakuni-Swetland Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 5:10 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Here is a little curious inquiry for all of us to ponder Aloha all, something for the list to consider. Many thanks! Mark A-S Received from william wolkowski 2009zww at gmail.com ALICE IN OMAHA Dear Colleague, For the sesquicentennial in 2015 I am preparing a polyglot graphic study of this quote from chapter 2 in Carroll's Alice in Wonderland "Curiouser and curiouser, cried Alice" If you wish to include it in this study, would you please help me with a translation? Thank you. Best regards Wolkowski Sorbonne Universites UPMC -- *********************************************************** Bryan James Gordon, MA Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology University of Arizona *********************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.rood at COLORADO.EDU Fri Apr 11 17:27:01 2014 From: david.rood at COLORADO.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 11:27:01 -0600 Subject: regrets and thoughts Message-ID: Hi, everyone, My family schedule for at least part of the summer has finally settled down, and I regret that it precludes me from attending the SCLC again this year. The earliest I could get to Madison would be mid-afternoon on Saturday, hardly the appropriate time for participating in the meeting. I am very much interested in what is decided about honoring Bob Rankin, however, and in what might be done to make his huge contribution to the history of Siouan and the structure of Dhegiah part of a permanent record. I know he has many papers that have never been published, as well as many that are published here and there in places we don't always know about. As early as 1984, at the workshop that launched the Comparative Dictionary project, I proposed a "collection of papers" volume that would be a place for his work (and others), but that has never materialized. Moreover, for the last few years Bob was the major player in the evolution of the Comparative Dictionary. As most of you know, Iren Hartmann at the MPI-Leipzig is working on creating a usable digital verson of the CSD. Of the original 5 participants (John Koontz, Wes Jones, Dick Carter, Rankin and me) in the project, I guess I'm the only one who is still interested and available, so I'm going to work with Iren to see if that can't be finalized and formalized. There is quite a bit of urgency here, because as many of you know, the structure of the MPI in Leipzig will change dramatically in May of 2015, and they will likely no longer be interested in supporting Iren's work. If any of you have any thoughts on how best to move forward with either Bob's legacy or the CSD, please discuss them at the meeting and keep me informed. I don't feel like I know Carolyn well enough to approach her about any of this; perhaps one of you would be willing to help with that. Best wishes to all for a fruitful and fun meeting. David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Fri Apr 11 18:12:43 2014 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 13:12:43 -0500 Subject: regrets and thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi David and all, Sorry to hear David that you won't be able to make it to the SCLC this year. I know we have talked about doing a Festschrift in Bob's honor, and this is certainly something we can discuss at the meeting. Hopefully our organizers can set aside some time on the schedule so we can all participate in this discussion. As for the CSD, I think it's a great idea to have it finalized and published in some form, either electronically or in print, or both. As concerns Bob's unpublished papers and computer files, Carolyn, Bob's wife, and I have been in touch fairly regularly. Even before Bob's death, she said that she and Bob had discussed it and thought it would be best that I come up to their house and "clean out" his garage full of files, books, etc. Also, I plan to take a USB drive and download as much of his computer files as possible, at least some of which I know pertain to Kaw. I'll be happy to distribute whatever I find pertaining to other Siouan languages to those of you who want it. I'm hoping to go up and do this in the next couple of months, possibly in early June or so before it gets too hot. I know Carolyn is thinking about selling the house and moving up to be with family in Wisconsin, so this cleaning out will have to be done fairly soon anyway. Anyway, I'll keep everyone posted as plans for these things become more concrete. Things are a bit crazy for me right now as I work full-time for the Kaw Nation and try to finish my dissertation without yet having another committee member to substitute for Bob. I hope to defend in May, but I'm still awaiting final word on a new committee member and date from my advisor. Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 12:27 PM, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > Hi, everyone, > My family schedule for at least part of the summer has finally > settled down, and I regret that it precludes me from attending the SCLC > again this year. The earliest I could get to Madison would be > mid-afternoon on Saturday, hardly the appropriate time for participating in > the meeting. > > I am very much interested in what is decided about honoring Bob > Rankin, however, and in what might be done to make his huge contribution to > the history of Siouan and the structure of Dhegiah part of a permanent > record. I know he has many papers that have never been published, as well > as many that are published here and there in places we don't always know > about. As early as 1984, at the workshop that launched the Comparative > Dictionary project, I proposed a "collection of papers" volume that would > be a place for his work (and others), but that has never materialized. > Moreover, for the last few years Bob was the major player in the > evolution of the Comparative Dictionary. As most of you know, Iren > Hartmann at the MPI-Leipzig is working on creating a usable digital verson > of the CSD. Of the original 5 participants (John Koontz, Wes Jones, Dick > Carter, Rankin and me) in the project, I guess I'm the only one who is > still interested and available, so I'm going to work with Iren to see if > that can't be finalized and formalized. There is quite a bit of urgency > here, because as many of you know, the structure of the MPI in Leipzig will > change dramatically in May of 2015, and they will likely no longer be > interested in supporting Iren's work. > > If any of you have any thoughts on how best to move forward with > either Bob's legacy or the CSD, please discuss them at the meeting and keep > me informed. I don't feel like I know Carolyn well enough to approach her > about any of this; perhaps one of you would be willing to help with that. > > Best wishes to all for a fruitful and fun meeting. > > David > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Apr 11 18:26:57 2014 From: pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET (David Costa) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 11:26:57 -0700 Subject: regrets and thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Did Bob ever express a preference as to where his papers should end up? I would assume either the NAA or the APS would be best? Dave Costa > Hi David and all, > > Sorry to hear David that you won't be able to make it to the SCLC this year. > > I know we have talked about doing a Festschrift in Bob's honor, and this is certainly something we can discuss at the meeting. Hopefully our organizers can set aside some time on the schedule so we can all participate in this discussion. > > As for the CSD, I think it's a great idea to have it finalized and published in some form, either electronically or in print, or both. > > As concerns Bob's unpublished papers and computer files, Carolyn, Bob's wife, and I have been in touch fairly regularly. Even before Bob's death, she said that she and Bob had discussed it and thought it would be best that I come up to their house and "clean out" his garage full of files, books, etc. Also, I plan to take a USB drive and download as much of his computer files as possible, at least some of which I know pertain to Kaw. I'll be happy to distribute whatever I find pertaining to other Siouan languages to those of you who want it. I'm hoping to go up and do this in the next couple of months, possibly in early June or so before it gets too hot. I know Carolyn is thinking about selling the house and moving up to be with family in Wisconsin, so this cleaning out will have to be done fairly soon anyway. > > Anyway, I'll keep everyone posted as plans for these things become more concrete. Things are a bit crazy for me right now as I work full-time for the Kaw Nation and try to finish my dissertation without yet having another committee member to substitute for Bob. I hope to defend in May, but I'm still awaiting final word on a new committee member and date from my advisor. > > Dave > > David Kaufman > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > > On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 12:27 PM, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > Hi, everyone, > My family schedule for at least part of the summer has finally settled down, and I regret that it precludes me from attending the SCLC again this year. The earliest I could get to Madison would be mid-afternoon on Saturday, hardly the appropriate time for participating in the meeting. > > I am very much interested in what is decided about honoring Bob Rankin, however, and in what might be done to make his huge contribution to the history of Siouan and the structure of Dhegiah part of a permanent record. I know he has many papers that have never been published, as well as many that are published here and there in places we don't always know about. As early as 1984, at the workshop that launched the Comparative Dictionary project, I proposed a "collection of papers" volume that would be a place for his work (and others), but that has never materialized. > Moreover, for the last few years Bob was the major player in the evolution of the Comparative Dictionary. As most of you know, Iren Hartmann at the MPI-Leipzig is working on creating a usable digital verson of the CSD. Of the original 5 participants (John Koontz, Wes Jones, Dick Carter, Rankin and me) in the project, I guess I'm the only one who is still interested and available, so I'm going to work with Iren to see if that can't be finalized and formalized. There is quite a bit of urgency here, because as many of you know, the structure of the MPI in Leipzig will change dramatically in May of 2015, and they will likely no longer be interested in supporting Iren's work. > > If any of you have any thoughts on how best to move forward with either Bob's legacy or the CSD, please discuss them at the meeting and keep me informed. I don't feel like I know Carolyn well enough to approach her about any of this; perhaps one of you would be willing to help with that. > > Best wishes to all for a fruitful and fun meeting. > > David > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Fri Apr 11 18:42:55 2014 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 13:42:55 -0500 Subject: regrets and thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I don't know if Bob expressed such an interest, at least not to me, and possibly not to Carolyn either (she didn't mention it). I'd have to look into how we would go about submitting papers to these organizations for their archives. Any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated. Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 1:26 PM, David Costa wrote: > Did Bob ever express a preference as to where his papers should end up? I > would assume either the NAA or the APS would be best... > > Dave Costa > > > Hi David and all, > > Sorry to hear David that you won't be able to make it to the SCLC this > year. > > I know we have talked about doing a Festschrift in Bob's honor, and this > is certainly something we can discuss at the meeting. Hopefully our > organizers can set aside some time on the schedule so we can all > participate in this discussion. > > As for the CSD, I think it's a great idea to have it finalized and > published in some form, either electronically or in print, or both. > > As concerns Bob's unpublished papers and computer files, Carolyn, Bob's > wife, and I have been in touch fairly regularly. Even before Bob's death, > she said that she and Bob had discussed it and thought it would be best > that I come up to their house and "clean out" his garage full of files, > books, etc. Also, I plan to take a USB drive and download as much of his > computer files as possible, at least some of which I know pertain to Kaw. > I'll be happy to distribute whatever I find pertaining to other Siouan > languages to those of you who want it. I'm hoping to go up and do this in > the next couple of months, possibly in early June or so before it gets too > hot. I know Carolyn is thinking about selling the house and moving up to > be with family in Wisconsin, so this cleaning out will have to be done > fairly soon anyway. > > Anyway, I'll keep everyone posted as plans for these things become more > concrete. Things are a bit crazy for me right now as I work full-time for > the Kaw Nation and try to finish my dissertation without yet having another > committee member to substitute for Bob. I hope to defend in May, but I'm > still awaiting final word on a new committee member and date from my > advisor. > > Dave > > David Kaufman > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > > On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 12:27 PM, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > >> Hi, everyone, >> My family schedule for at least part of the summer has finally >> settled down, and I regret that it precludes me from attending the SCLC >> again this year. The earliest I could get to Madison would be >> mid-afternoon on Saturday, hardly the appropriate time for participating in >> the meeting. >> >> I am very much interested in what is decided about honoring Bob >> Rankin, however, and in what might be done to make his huge contribution to >> the history of Siouan and the structure of Dhegiah part of a permanent >> record. I know he has many papers that have never been published, as well >> as many that are published here and there in places we don't always know >> about. As early as 1984, at the workshop that launched the Comparative >> Dictionary project, I proposed a "collection of papers" volume that would >> be a place for his work (and others), but that has never materialized. >> Moreover, for the last few years Bob was the major player in the >> evolution of the Comparative Dictionary. As most of you know, Iren >> Hartmann at the MPI-Leipzig is working on creating a usable digital verson >> of the CSD. Of the original 5 participants (John Koontz, Wes Jones, Dick >> Carter, Rankin and me) in the project, I guess I'm the only one who is >> still interested and available, so I'm going to work with Iren to see if >> that can't be finalized and formalized. There is quite a bit of urgency >> here, because as many of you know, the structure of the MPI in Leipzig will >> change dramatically in May of 2015, and they will likely no longer be >> interested in supporting Iren's work. >> >> If any of you have any thoughts on how best to move forward with >> either Bob's legacy or the CSD, please discuss them at the meeting and keep >> me informed. I don't feel like I know Carolyn well enough to approach her >> about any of this; perhaps one of you would be willing to help with that. >> >> Best wishes to all for a fruitful and fun meeting. >> >> David >> >> David S. Rood >> Dept. of Linguistics >> Univ. of Colorado >> 295 UCB >> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >> USA >> rood at colorado.edu >> > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Apr 11 18:59:20 2014 From: pankihtamwa at EARTHLINK.NET (David Costa) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 11:59:20 -0700 Subject: regrets and thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dave, let me look into this and I?ll get back to you. Dave C. > I don't know if Bob expressed such an interest, at least not to me, and possibly not to Carolyn either (she didn't mention it). I'd have to look into how we would go about submitting papers to these organizations for their archives. Any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated. > > Dave > > David Kaufman > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > > On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 1:26 PM, David Costa wrote: > Did Bob ever express a preference as to where his papers should end up? I would assume either the NAA or the APS would be best? > > Dave Costa > > >> Hi David and all, >> >> Sorry to hear David that you won't be able to make it to the SCLC this year. >> >> I know we have talked about doing a Festschrift in Bob's honor, and this is certainly something we can discuss at the meeting. Hopefully our organizers can set aside some time on the schedule so we can all participate in this discussion. >> >> As for the CSD, I think it's a great idea to have it finalized and published in some form, either electronically or in print, or both. >> >> As concerns Bob's unpublished papers and computer files, Carolyn, Bob's wife, and I have been in touch fairly regularly. Even before Bob's death, she said that she and Bob had discussed it and thought it would be best that I come up to their house and "clean out" his garage full of files, books, etc. Also, I plan to take a USB drive and download as much of his computer files as possible, at least some of which I know pertain to Kaw. I'll be happy to distribute whatever I find pertaining to other Siouan languages to those of you who want it. I'm hoping to go up and do this in the next couple of months, possibly in early June or so before it gets too hot. I know Carolyn is thinking about selling the house and moving up to be with family in Wisconsin, so this cleaning out will have to be done fairly soon anyway. >> >> Anyway, I'll keep everyone posted as plans for these things become more concrete. Things are a bit crazy for me right now as I work full-time for the Kaw Nation and try to finish my dissertation without yet having another committee member to substitute for Bob. I hope to defend in May, but I'm still awaiting final word on a new committee member and date from my advisor. >> >> Dave >> >> David Kaufman >> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 12:27 PM, ROOD DAVID S wrote: >> Hi, everyone, >> My family schedule for at least part of the summer has finally settled down, and I regret that it precludes me from attending the SCLC again this year. The earliest I could get to Madison would be mid-afternoon on Saturday, hardly the appropriate time for participating in the meeting. >> >> I am very much interested in what is decided about honoring Bob Rankin, however, and in what might be done to make his huge contribution to the history of Siouan and the structure of Dhegiah part of a permanent record. I know he has many papers that have never been published, as well as many that are published here and there in places we don't always know about. As early as 1984, at the workshop that launched the Comparative Dictionary project, I proposed a "collection of papers" volume that would be a place for his work (and others), but that has never materialized. >> Moreover, for the last few years Bob was the major player in the evolution of the Comparative Dictionary. As most of you know, Iren Hartmann at the MPI-Leipzig is working on creating a usable digital verson of the CSD. Of the original 5 participants (John Koontz, Wes Jones, Dick Carter, Rankin and me) in the project, I guess I'm the only one who is still interested and available, so I'm going to work with Iren to see if that can't be finalized and formalized. There is quite a bit of urgency here, because as many of you know, the structure of the MPI in Leipzig will change dramatically in May of 2015, and they will likely no longer be interested in supporting Iren's work. >> >> If any of you have any thoughts on how best to move forward with either Bob's legacy or the CSD, please discuss them at the meeting and keep me informed. I don't feel like I know Carolyn well enough to approach her about any of this; perhaps one of you would be willing to help with that. >> >> Best wishes to all for a fruitful and fun meeting. >> >> David >> >> David S. Rood >> Dept. of Linguistics >> Univ. of Colorado >> 295 UCB >> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >> USA >> rood at colorado.edu >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mary.marino at USASK.CA Fri Apr 11 19:28:44 2014 From: mary.marino at USASK.CA (Mary C Marino) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 13:28:44 -0600 Subject: regrets and thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Did Bob leave any instructions about these matters in his Will? Mary On 11/04/2014 12:12 PM, David Kaufman wrote: > Hi David and all, > > Sorry to hear David that you won't be able to make it to the SCLC this > year. > > I know we have talked about doing a Festschrift in Bob's honor, and > this is certainly something we can discuss at the meeting. Hopefully > our organizers can set aside some time on the schedule so we can all > participate in this discussion. > > As for the CSD, I think it's a great idea to have it finalized and > published in some form, either electronically or in print, or both. > > As concerns Bob's unpublished papers and computer files, Carolyn, > Bob's wife, and I have been in touch fairly regularly. Even before > Bob's death, she said that she and Bob had discussed it and thought it > would be best that I come up to their house and "clean out" his garage > full of files, books, etc. Also, I plan to take a USB drive and > download as much of his computer files as possible, at least some of > which I know pertain to Kaw. I'll be happy to distribute whatever I > find pertaining to other Siouan languages to those of you who want it. > I'm hoping to go up and do this in the next couple of months, > possibly in early June or so before it gets too hot. I know Carolyn > is thinking about selling the house and moving up to be with family in > Wisconsin, so this cleaning out will have to be done fairly soon anyway. > > Anyway, I'll keep everyone posted as plans for these things become > more concrete. Things are a bit crazy for me right now as I work > full-time for the Kaw Nation and try to finish my dissertation without > yet having another committee member to substitute for Bob. I hope to > defend in May, but I'm still awaiting final word on a new committee > member and date from my advisor. > > Dave > > David Kaufman > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > > On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 12:27 PM, ROOD DAVID S > > wrote: > > Hi, everyone, > My family schedule for at least part of the summer has > finally settled down, and I regret that it precludes me from > attending the SCLC again this year. The earliest I could get to > Madison would be mid-afternoon on Saturday, hardly the appropriate > time for participating in the meeting. > > I am very much interested in what is decided about > honoring Bob Rankin, however, and in what might be done to make > his huge contribution to the history of Siouan and the structure > of Dhegiah part of a permanent record. I know he has many papers > that have never been published, as well as many that are published > here and there in places we don't always know about. As early as > 1984, at the workshop that launched the Comparative Dictionary > project, I proposed a "collection of papers" volume that would be > a place for his work (and others), but that has never materialized. > Moreover, for the last few years Bob was the major player > in the evolution of the Comparative Dictionary. As most of you > know, Iren Hartmann at the MPI-Leipzig is working on creating a > usable digital verson of the CSD. Of the original 5 participants > (John Koontz, Wes Jones, Dick Carter, Rankin and me) in the > project, I guess I'm the only one who is still interested and > available, so I'm going to work with Iren to see if that can't be > finalized and formalized. There is quite a bit of urgency here, > because as many of you know, the structure of the MPI in Leipzig > will change dramatically in May of 2015, and they will likely no > longer be interested in supporting Iren's work. > > If any of you have any thoughts on how best to move > forward with either Bob's legacy or the CSD, please discuss them > at the meeting and keep me informed. I don't feel like I know > Carolyn well enough to approach her about any of this; perhaps one > of you would be willing to help with that. > > Best wishes to all for a fruitful and fun meeting. > > David > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Fri Apr 11 19:36:57 2014 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 14:36:57 -0500 Subject: regrets and thoughts In-Reply-To: <5348426C.8020207@usask.ca> Message-ID: Mary, It's my understanding that Bob did not leave a will. Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 2:28 PM, Mary C Marino wrote: > Did Bob leave any instructions about these matters in his Will? > > Mary > > > > On 11/04/2014 12:12 PM, David Kaufman wrote: > > Hi David and all, > > Sorry to hear David that you won't be able to make it to the SCLC this > year. > > I know we have talked about doing a Festschrift in Bob's honor, and this > is certainly something we can discuss at the meeting. Hopefully our > organizers can set aside some time on the schedule so we can all > participate in this discussion. > > As for the CSD, I think it's a great idea to have it finalized and > published in some form, either electronically or in print, or both. > > As concerns Bob's unpublished papers and computer files, Carolyn, Bob's > wife, and I have been in touch fairly regularly. Even before Bob's death, > she said that she and Bob had discussed it and thought it would be best > that I come up to their house and "clean out" his garage full of files, > books, etc. Also, I plan to take a USB drive and download as much of his > computer files as possible, at least some of which I know pertain to Kaw. > I'll be happy to distribute whatever I find pertaining to other Siouan > languages to those of you who want it. I'm hoping to go up and do this in > the next couple of months, possibly in early June or so before it gets too > hot. I know Carolyn is thinking about selling the house and moving up to > be with family in Wisconsin, so this cleaning out will have to be done > fairly soon anyway. > > Anyway, I'll keep everyone posted as plans for these things become more > concrete. Things are a bit crazy for me right now as I work full-time for > the Kaw Nation and try to finish my dissertation without yet having another > committee member to substitute for Bob. I hope to defend in May, but I'm > still awaiting final word on a new committee member and date from my > advisor. > > Dave > > David Kaufman > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > > On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 12:27 PM, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > >> Hi, everyone, >> My family schedule for at least part of the summer has finally >> settled down, and I regret that it precludes me from attending the SCLC >> again this year. The earliest I could get to Madison would be >> mid-afternoon on Saturday, hardly the appropriate time for participating in >> the meeting. >> >> I am very much interested in what is decided about honoring Bob >> Rankin, however, and in what might be done to make his huge contribution to >> the history of Siouan and the structure of Dhegiah part of a permanent >> record. I know he has many papers that have never been published, as well >> as many that are published here and there in places we don't always know >> about. As early as 1984, at the workshop that launched the Comparative >> Dictionary project, I proposed a "collection of papers" volume that would >> be a place for his work (and others), but that has never materialized. >> Moreover, for the last few years Bob was the major player in the >> evolution of the Comparative Dictionary. As most of you know, Iren >> Hartmann at the MPI-Leipzig is working on creating a usable digital verson >> of the CSD. Of the original 5 participants (John Koontz, Wes Jones, Dick >> Carter, Rankin and me) in the project, I guess I'm the only one who is >> still interested and available, so I'm going to work with Iren to see if >> that can't be finalized and formalized. There is quite a bit of urgency >> here, because as many of you know, the structure of the MPI in Leipzig will >> change dramatically in May of 2015, and they will likely no longer be >> interested in supporting Iren's work. >> >> If any of you have any thoughts on how best to move forward with >> either Bob's legacy or the CSD, please discuss them at the meeting and keep >> me informed. I don't feel like I know Carolyn well enough to approach her >> about any of this; perhaps one of you would be willing to help with that. >> >> Best wishes to all for a fruitful and fun meeting. >> >> David >> >> David S. Rood >> Dept. of Linguistics >> Univ. of Colorado >> 295 UCB >> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >> USA >> rood at colorado.edu >> > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mary.marino at USASK.CA Fri Apr 11 20:20:05 2014 From: mary.marino at USASK.CA (Mary C Marino) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 14:20:05 -0600 Subject: regrets and thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It happens; a will does not necessarily make things any easier for the survivors. Could the university provide you with some space for storage of the materials, where you (and maybe others) could work on them? Mary On 11/04/2014 1:36 PM, David Kaufman wrote: > Mary, > > It's my understanding that Bob did not leave a will. > > Dave > > David Kaufman > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > > On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 2:28 PM, Mary C Marino > wrote: > > Did Bob leave any instructions about these matters in his Will? > > Mary > > > > On 11/04/2014 12:12 PM, David Kaufman wrote: >> Hi David and all, >> >> Sorry to hear David that you won't be able to make it to the SCLC >> this year. >> >> I know we have talked about doing a Festschrift in Bob's honor, >> and this is certainly something we can discuss at the meeting. >> Hopefully our organizers can set aside some time on the schedule >> so we can all participate in this discussion. >> >> As for the CSD, I think it's a great idea to have it finalized >> and published in some form, either electronically or in print, or >> both. >> >> As concerns Bob's unpublished papers and computer files, Carolyn, >> Bob's wife, and I have been in touch fairly regularly. Even >> before Bob's death, she said that she and Bob had discussed it >> and thought it would be best that I come up to their house and >> "clean out" his garage full of files, books, etc. Also, I plan >> to take a USB drive and download as much of his computer files as >> possible, at least some of which I know pertain to Kaw. I'll be >> happy to distribute whatever I find pertaining to other Siouan >> languages to those of you who want it. I'm hoping to go up and >> do this in the next couple of months, possibly in early June or >> so before it gets too hot. I know Carolyn is thinking about >> selling the house and moving up to be with family in Wisconsin, >> so this cleaning out will have to be done fairly soon anyway. >> >> Anyway, I'll keep everyone posted as plans for these things >> become more concrete. Things are a bit crazy for me right now as >> I work full-time for the Kaw Nation and try to finish my >> dissertation without yet having another committee member to >> substitute for Bob. I hope to defend in May, but I'm still >> awaiting final word on a new committee member and date from my >> advisor. >> >> Dave >> >> David Kaufman >> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 12:27 PM, ROOD DAVID S >> > wrote: >> >> Hi, everyone, >> My family schedule for at least part of the summer >> has finally settled down, and I regret that it precludes me >> from attending the SCLC again this year. The earliest I >> could get to Madison would be mid-afternoon on Saturday, >> hardly the appropriate time for participating in the meeting. >> >> I am very much interested in what is decided about >> honoring Bob Rankin, however, and in what might be done to >> make his huge contribution to the history of Siouan and the >> structure of Dhegiah part of a permanent record. I know he >> has many papers that have never been published, as well as >> many that are published here and there in places we don't >> always know about. As early as 1984, at the workshop that >> launched the Comparative Dictionary project, I proposed a >> "collection of papers" volume that would be a place for his >> work (and others), but that has never materialized. >> Moreover, for the last few years Bob was the major >> player in the evolution of the Comparative Dictionary. As >> most of you know, Iren Hartmann at the MPI-Leipzig is working >> on creating a usable digital verson of the CSD. Of the >> original 5 participants (John Koontz, Wes Jones, Dick Carter, >> Rankin and me) in the project, I guess I'm the only one who >> is still interested and available, so I'm going to work with >> Iren to see if that can't be finalized and formalized. There >> is quite a bit of urgency here, because as many of you know, >> the structure of the MPI in Leipzig will change dramatically >> in May of 2015, and they will likely no longer be interested >> in supporting Iren's work. >> >> If any of you have any thoughts on how best to move >> forward with either Bob's legacy or the CSD, please discuss >> them at the meeting and keep me informed. I don't feel like >> I know Carolyn well enough to approach her about any of this; >> perhaps one of you would be willing to help with that. >> >> Best wishes to all for a fruitful and fun meeting. >> >> David >> >> David S. Rood >> Dept. of Linguistics >> Univ. of Colorado >> 295 UCB >> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >> USA >> rood at colorado.edu >> >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rgraczyk at AOL.COM Fri Apr 11 20:37:48 2014 From: rgraczyk at AOL.COM (Randy Graczyk) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 16:37:48 -0400 Subject: regrets and thoughts In-Reply-To: <53484E75.6070108@usask.ca> Message-ID: I just looked through my files, and I have 26 papers by Bob Rankin. There are undoubtedly some that I don't have. I know some of these have been published (often in out-of-the-way journals), but many have not. All of them are worth passing on to future generations of Siouanists. Randy -----Original Message----- From: Mary C Marino To: SIOUAN Sent: Fri, Apr 11, 2014 2:20 pm Subject: Re: regrets and thoughts It happens; a will does not necessarily make things any easier for the survivors. Could the university provide you with some space for storage of the materials, where you (and maybe others) could work on them? Mary On 11/04/2014 1:36 PM, David Kaufman wrote: Mary, It's my understanding that Bob did not leave a will. Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 2:28 PM, Mary C Marino wrote: Did Bob leave any instructions about these matters in his Will? Mary On 11/04/2014 12:12 PM, David Kaufman wrote: Hi David and all, Sorry to hear David that you won't be able to make it to the SCLC this year. I know we have talked about doing a Festschrift in Bob's honor, and this is certainly something we can discuss at the meeting. Hopefully our organizers can set aside some time on the schedule so we can all participate in this discussion. As for the CSD, I think it's a great idea to have it finalized and published in some form, either electronically or in print, or both. As concerns Bob's unpublished papers and computer files, Carolyn, Bob's wife, and I have been in touch fairly regularly. Even before Bob's death, she said that she and Bob had discussed it and thought it would be best that I come up to their house and "clean out" his garage full of files, books, etc. Also, I plan to take a USB drive and download as much of his computer files as possible, at least some of which I know pertain to Kaw. I'll be happy to distribute whatever I find pertaining to other Siouan languages to those of you who want it. I'm hoping to go up and do this in the next couple of months, possibly in early June or so before it gets too hot. I know Carolyn is thinking about selling the house and moving up to be with family in Wisconsin, so this cleaning out will have to be done fairly soon anyway. Anyway, I'll keep everyone posted as plans for these things become more concrete. Things are a bit crazy for me right now as I work full-time for the Kaw Nation and try to finish my dissertation without yet having another committee member to substitute for Bob. I hope to defend in May, but I'm still awaiting final word on a new committee member and date from my advisor. Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 12:27 PM, ROOD DAVID S wrote: Hi, everyone, My family schedule for at least part of the summer has finally settled down, and I regret that it precludes me from attending the SCLC again this year. The earliest I could get to Madison would be mid-afternoon on Saturday, hardly the appropriate time for participating in the meeting. I am very much interested in what is decided about honoring Bob Rankin, however, and in what might be done to make his huge contribution to the history of Siouan and the structure of Dhegiah part of a permanent record. I know he has many papers that have never been published, as well as many that are published here and there in places we don't always know about. As early as 1984, at the workshop that launched the Comparative Dictionary project, I proposed a "collection of papers" volume that would be a place for his work (and others), but that has never materialized. Moreover, for the last few years Bob was the major player in the evolution of the Comparative Dictionary. As most of you know, Iren Hartmann at the MPI-Leipzig is working on creating a usable digital verson of the CSD. Of the original 5 participants (John Koontz, Wes Jones, Dick Carter, Rankin and me) in the project, I guess I'm the only one who is still interested and available, so I'm going to work with Iren to see if that can't be finalized and formalized. There is quite a bit of urgency here, because as many of you know, the structure of the MPI in Leipzig will change dramatically in May of 2015, and they will likely no longer be interested in supporting Iren's work. If any of you have any thoughts on how best to move forward with either Bob's legacy or the CSD, please discuss them at the meeting and keep me informed. I don't feel like I know Carolyn well enough to approach her about any of this; perhaps one of you would be willing to help with that. Best wishes to all for a fruitful and fun meeting. David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aigotm at YAHOO.COM Fri Apr 11 20:40:17 2014 From: aigotm at YAHOO.COM (aigotm) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 15:40:17 -0500 Subject: regrets and thoughts Message-ID: I am new to the Siouan community, but I am more than happy to help in any way I can. I am located in Chicago at DePaul University.? Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device -------- Original message -------- From: Mary C Marino Date:04/11/2014 3:20 PM (GMT-06:00) To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: regrets and thoughts It happens;? a will does not necessarily make things any easier for the survivors.? Could the university provide you with some space for storage of the materials, where you (and maybe others) could work on them?? Mary On 11/04/2014 1:36 PM, David Kaufman wrote: Mary, It's my understanding that Bob did not leave a will. Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate,?University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 2:28 PM, Mary C Marino wrote: Did Bob leave any instructions about these matters in his Will? Mary On 11/04/2014 12:12 PM, David Kaufman wrote: Hi David and all, Sorry to hear David that you won't be able to make it to the SCLC this year. I know we have talked about doing a Festschrift in Bob's honor, and this is certainly something we can discuss at the meeting. Hopefully our organizers can set aside some time on the schedule so we can all participate in this discussion. As for the CSD, I think it's a great idea to have it finalized and published in some form, either electronically or in print, or both. As concerns Bob's unpublished papers and computer files, Carolyn, Bob's wife, and I have been in touch fairly regularly. Even before Bob's death, she said that she and Bob had discussed it and thought it would be best that I come up to their house and "clean out" his garage full of files, books, etc. Also, I plan to take a USB drive and download as much of his computer files as possible, at least some of which I know pertain to Kaw. I'll be happy to distribute whatever I find pertaining to other Siouan languages to those of you who want it. I'm hoping to go up and do this in the next couple of months, possibly in early June or so before it gets too hot. I know Carolyn is thinking about selling the house and moving up to be with family in Wisconsin, so this cleaning out will have to be done fairly soon anyway. Anyway, I'll keep everyone posted as plans for these things become more concrete. Things are a bit crazy for me right now as I work full-time for the Kaw Nation and try to finish my dissertation without yet having another committee member to substitute for Bob. I hope to defend in May, but I'm still awaiting final word on a new committee member and date from my advisor. Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 12:27 PM, ROOD DAVID S wrote: Hi, everyone, ? My family schedule for at least part of the summer has finally settled down, and I regret that it precludes me from attending the SCLC again this year. The earliest I could get to Madison would be mid-afternoon on Saturday, hardly the appropriate time for participating in the meeting. ? I am very much interested in what is decided about honoring Bob Rankin, however, and in what might be done to make his huge contribution to the history of Siouan and the structure of Dhegiah part of a permanent record. I know he has many papers that have never been published, as well as many that are published here and there in places we don't always know about. As early as 1984, at the workshop that launched the Comparative Dictionary project, I proposed a "collection of papers" volume that would be a place for his work (and others), but that has never materialized. ? Moreover, for the last few years Bob was the major player in the evolution of the Comparative Dictionary. As most of you know, Iren Hartmann at the MPI-Leipzig is working on creating a usable digital verson of the CSD. Of the original 5 participants (John Koontz, Wes Jones, Dick Carter, Rankin and me) in the project, I guess I'm the only one who is still interested and available, so I'm going to work with Iren to see if that can't be finalized and formalized. There is quite a bit of urgency here, because as many of you know, the structure of the MPI in Leipzig will change dramatically in May of 2015, and they will likely no longer be interested in supporting Iren's work. ? If any of you have any thoughts on how best to move forward with either Bob's legacy or the CSD, please discuss them at the meeting and keep me informed. I don't feel like I know Carolyn well enough to approach her about any of this; perhaps one of you would be willing to help with that. ? Best wishes to all for a fruitful and fun meeting. ? David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU Fri Apr 11 21:48:37 2014 From: jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU (Mcbride, Justin) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 16:48:37 -0500 Subject: Alice translation In-Reply-To: <09c87c99df9342b5a404fd254e5b52c2@CO1PR01MB127.prod.exchangelabs.com> Message-ID: Interesting discussion. I do know that Dorsey, who began his linguistic work as a Christian missionary (to the Poncas?), started an OP translation of the Gospel According to St. Mark, which appears in the microfilm reels that Mark photographed up at the National Anthropological Archives. I can't recall how far he got with it, but I remember seeing it. I also know that at my time at the Kaw Nation, a handful of people did ask me about the availability of Bible translations or portions and were disappointed to know that there were none beyond the Lord's Prayer. There was enough interest that we finally made the Lord's Prayer as told by Maude Rowe available online. Furthermore, having attended one of Father Graczyk's masses at Pryor, which was at least partially in Crow, and having been numerous times to the Hominy Friends Meeting where Osage is used on a weekly basis, I would suspect that certain Siouan language Bible translations would very much be welcome additions to those congregations. So, at least from my experience, I would respectfully suggest that there is some degree of interest for such work in these communities. Still, I would agree that I've never personally heard requests for translations of the Koran, Shakespeare, or Carroll. Frankly, I would guess that there's not enough Siouan language literacy or demand for written materials outside of class or church organizations in many of the Southern communities in Oklahoma to warrant much time spent translating these sorts of extended non-Native literary works when, as Jimm rightly says, there are probably far more pressing matters. The tribes themselves have their own stories, after all. Peace, -Justin On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 11:19 AM, De Reuse, Willem wrote: > Interesting discussion. I did not know about Alice in Wonderland. As > someone who works on Apache, I get a lot of requests for translations, as > Apache is one of these "iconic" Native American languages. > > > One has to pick and choose, if it is short and culturally appropriate, I > generally agree to it. I remember once translating a short Jewish prayer > into Apache. The Apaches liked it. After all Apaches, like Jews, know > something about wandering about in the desert. > > > Then other requests have to be nixed, like the set of "Spring Break" > phrases I once was asked to translate, things like "I am so drunk", and > "where is the bathroom?". > > > Portions of the Bible have more appeal that the other four works. I add > a link to a nice example. Thanks Jimm for this. > > > > http://iowayotoelang.nativeweb.org/pdf/christmasstory.pdf > > > Another great Bible story that has been used for linguistic work is the > Parable of Prodigal son, which has been recorded in many more versions > than the New Testament itself, and probably second in number of > translations to the Lord's Prayer. One does not have to be a Christian to > appreciate this parable is an awfully good story, of almost universal > appeal, except maybe to vegans! > > > Willem > ------------------------------ > *From:* Siouan Linguistics on behalf of Jimm > Goodtracks > *Sent:* Friday, April 11, 2014 10:27 AM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Re: Alice translation > > Dear Erik Hanson: > > I cannot refute what you say below in regard to your statement that Alice > in Wonderland, the Bible, Koran and Shakespeare are the most translated and > published in various languages of the world. If you say so, I will take it > as so on face value. However, I assure you that in the last 115 years here > in Indian Country, USA, there has been no interest in these four works of > literature on the part of an member of the indigenous communities of the > Northern and Southern Plains that represent the Siouan, Caddoan and other > indigenous languages families. > > As such, for my part, I have not available time to spend in satisfying > someone?s whims to translate some phrase or work of no consequence to the > language communities just for the hell of it, i.e., the sake of making a > translation. Such tasks can be given to the idle hands of someone who has > nothing better to do with their time. > > Sincerely, > Jimm G. Goodtracks > Jimm G. Goodtracks > B?xoje Jiw?re Language Project > PO Box 55 > Tecumseh, KS 66542 > > > Uk?nadheda waw??arana, ich^? nah?, inj? et?we war?xi?eda ad??e?dan ? > w?gi?i kigr??ige ?thgare ke. > ?In the middle of resisting, the language got caught, only showing her > face in ceremony, like she?s ashamed of her scars.? > (www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FUgDutdauQ&feature=share > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Erik Hanson > Sent: Friday, April 11, 2014 9:54 AM > To: Jimm Goodtracks > Subject: Alice translation > > Hello: > > "Alice" is one of the standards that translators deal with and think > about. It's the fourth most quoted work in history (after the Bible, > Koran, and the complete works of Shakespeare) and the only one of the four > both secular and of a manageable size. It has already been translated and > published into 125 languages, back to the 1860s and probably a few more > unpublished. There is no insult to be read into a desire for a short bit, > at least, to be rendered into any/every language. I do question the merits > of that particular bit. > > Regards, Erik > > > Sent from my iPhone, please forgive typos and brevity. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lhf at UNL.EDU Fri Apr 11 22:33:29 2014 From: lhf at UNL.EDU (Loren Frerichs) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 22:33:29 +0000 Subject: FW: UNL listserv subscribers impacted by yahoo email change In-Reply-To: <201404112133.s3BLXqgY008712@listserv.unl.edu> Message-ID: Response to Yahoo dmarc policy: ________________________________________ From: listserv admin Sent: Friday, April 11, 2014 16:33 To: Loren Frerichs Subject: UNL listserv subscribers impacted by yahoo email change A recent change implemented by Yahoo to combat email spoofing has caused issues with mailing lists on listserv.unl.edu. The new policy implemented by Yahoo requires messages from the @yahoo.com domain to originate from a yahoo.com server. When a user from Yahoo emails a list, the message gets relayed by listserv.unl.edu. This causes it to be rejected by many of the recipients. The rejection goes to listserv.unl.edu, which causes them to be unsubscribed from that list. This affects every email list on the Internet that receives email from an @yahoo.com address. The solution that most have implemented is to reject messages from the @yahoo.com domain so their list subscribers don't get automatically dropped. We have taken immediate action by implementing this as of 4:10 p.m. 4/11/2014. As more information becomes available we will provide updates. You are receiving this message because your address is recorded as one of the owners of each of the following lists: ... From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Fri Apr 11 22:39:05 2014 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 22:39:05 +0000 Subject: Listserv issue involving yahoo addresses Message-ID: Hello all, A problem has cropped up this week that affects the functionality of the Siouan listserv, along with listservs throughout the Internet. It seems that Yahoo has recently implemented a non-orthodox protocol to prevent email spoofing by requiring that messages coming from Yahoo addresses must also come from a Yahoo server. This breaks the functionality of relaying, which is required for a listserv to operate. So if I post on the listserv from my Yahoo account, the listserv receives my message and relays it to your account. It goes to your Inbox with my Yahoo address, but the point of origination is the listserv server, which is not Yahoo. If you are unfortunate enough to have a Yahoo address as well, then your Yahoo server decides that I must be a bad guy, since my Yahoo-addressed message is not coming from a Yahoo server. To protect you, it rejects the message. This bounces it back to the listserv server, which concludes that your email account is an invalid address. After about four days of this, it quietly unsubscribes you from the list. So Yahoo's new security functionality acts to kill Yahoo accounts off of listservs. (Or at least, that's the way I fuzzily understand it. Loren will undoubtedly correct me if I'm wrong.) Below is the statement sent out this afternoon by our listserv system administrator. The triage solution is for the listserv to reject any posts coming from Yahoo email addresses. That way, Yahoo users will not be unsubscribed and will get the same messages everyone else gets. But until things get worked out between Yahoo and listservs, they will not be able to post to the list. Thanks, Rory ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ A recent change implemented by Yahoo to combat email spoofing has caused issues with mailing lists on listserv.unl.edu. The new policy implemented by Yahoo requires messages from the @yahoo.com domain to originate from a yahoo.com server. When a user from Yahoo emails a list, the message gets relayed by listserv.unl.edu. This causes it to be rejected by many of the recipients. The rejection goes to listserv.unl.edu, which causes them to be unsubscribed from that list. This affects every email list on the Internet that receives email from an @yahoo.com address. The solution that most have implemented is to reject messages from the @yahoo.com domain so their list subscribers don't get automatically dropped. We have taken immediate action by implementing this as of 4:10 p.m. 4/11/2014. As more information becomes available we will provide updates. You are receiving this message because your address (rlarson1 at unl.edu) is recorded as one of the owners of each of the following lists: siouan Thank you, Jim Liebgott UNL Listserv Administrator -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Sat Apr 12 01:16:04 2014 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 01:16:04 +0000 Subject: Alice translation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The discussion is interesting, but I think much of it is missing the point. We?re assuming that the translation is for the purpose of putting substantive material into a Siouan language. At this stage, any such enterprise is purely for vanity, since there are hardly any monolingual speakers left, hungry for the message of the Bible or Shakespeare or whatever, if only it could be put into their Siouan native tongue. Even if there were, I tend to share Jimm?s nativist attitude. Rather than inject a Western cultural corpus into Siouan, I would much rather hear and record Native stories and experience in their own native tongue. Insofar as this is still possible, I think this is about the most important thing we can be doing. But I suspect that the quote requested is not about the literary message, whether it came from ?Alice? or anywhere else. Rather, we are being challenged to analyze our languages? grammar. It is not about Alice in Wonderland. It is about how the language goes about communicating elements of standard experience that we too easily overlook as we compile our word lists. Alice was a Victorian-age English girl. When she fell down the rabbit hole and sampled the mushrooms, she said: ?Curiouser and curiouser.? A modern day American girl might communicate the same message with the formula: ?Well, this is really getting weird.? Here, the same substantive message can be communicated at least two different ways in the same language without using any of the same words or grammatical devices. In the mouths of fluent speakers, Siouan languages most likely had ways of expressing this same message. It is not culturally specific; anybody, anywhere, might have occasion to utter it. Lexically, we might want to check to see if we have one or more words meaning ?curious?, in the sense of ?strange?, ?odd?, ?weird?, or ?contrary to expectations?. If not, some word in the language probably got overlooked, and if we still have speakers we should search for it. At the syntactic level, we should study how the language deals with a quality steadily increasing or decreasing. It doesn?t have to be strangeness. It could just as well be heat. At the beginning of the week, it was 20 degrees Fahrenheit out. Three days ago it was 50 degrees. Yesterday it was 70, and today it is 90. You are a native Siouan speaker, living 200 years ago, and you want to comment on this phenomenon. How do you say it? In English, we would say: ?It?s getting hotter and hotter.? But the Siouan languages didn?t have those English devices. What devices did they have to express this sort of idea? If we don?t know what those devices were, then we don?t know the languages we are studying and trying to preserve. As I understand, the person asking for the translation is a linguist who is not just asking for a translation, but also a morpheme by morpheme analysis of it. Presumably he is doing a wide survey comparison of languages and the devices they use to express this thought. Certainly, we may have important things we need to be doing, and may not choose to volunteer an answer. But let?s not disparage the question or the questioner. I think the question is serious, and that making the effort to try to answer it may help us to improve our own game as well. Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mcbride, Justin Sent: Friday, April 11, 2014 4:49 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: Alice translation Interesting discussion. I do know that Dorsey, who began his linguistic work as a Christian missionary (to the Poncas?), started an OP translation of the Gospel According to St. Mark, which appears in the microfilm reels that Mark photographed up at the National Anthropological Archives. I can't recall how far he got with it, but I remember seeing it. I also know that at my time at the Kaw Nation, a handful of people did ask me about the availability of Bible translations or portions and were disappointed to know that there were none beyond the Lord's Prayer. There was enough interest that we finally made the Lord's Prayer as told by Maude Rowe available online. Furthermore, having attended one of Father Graczyk's masses at Pryor, which was at least partially in Crow, and having been numerous times to the Hominy Friends Meeting where Osage is used on a weekly basis, I would suspect that certain Siouan language Bible translations would very much be welcome additions to those congregations. So, at least from my experience, I would respectfully suggest that there is some degree of interest for such work in these communities. Still, I would agree that I've never personally heard requests for translations of the Koran, Shakespeare, or Carroll. Frankly, I would guess that there's not enough Siouan language literacy or demand for written materials outside of class or church organizations in many of the Southern communities in Oklahoma to warrant much time spent translating these sorts of extended non-Native literary works when, as Jimm rightly says, there are probably far more pressing matters. The tribes themselves have their own stories, after all. Peace, -Justin On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 11:19 AM, De Reuse, Willem > wrote: Interesting discussion. I did not know about Alice in Wonderland. As someone who works on Apache, I get a lot of requests for translations, as Apache is one of these "iconic" Native American languages. One has to pick and choose, if it is short and culturally appropriate, I generally agree to it. I remember once translating a short Jewish prayer into Apache. The Apaches liked it. After all Apaches, like Jews, know something about wandering about in the desert. Then other requests have to be nixed, like the set of "Spring Break" phrases I once was asked to translate, things like "I am so drunk", and "where is the bathroom?". Portions of the Bible have more appeal that the other four works. I add a link to a nice example. Thanks Jimm for this. http://iowayotoelang.nativeweb.org/pdf/christmasstory.pdf Another great Bible story that has been used for linguistic work is the Parable of Prodigal son, which has been recorded in many more versions than the New Testament itself, and probably second in number of translations to the Lord's Prayer. One does not have to be a Christian to appreciate this parable is an awfully good story, of almost universal appeal, except maybe to vegans! Willem ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics > on behalf of Jimm Goodtracks > Sent: Friday, April 11, 2014 10:27 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Alice translation Dear Erik Hanson: I cannot refute what you say below in regard to your statement that Alice in Wonderland, the Bible, Koran and Shakespeare are the most translated and published in various languages of the world. If you say so, I will take it as so on face value. However, I assure you that in the last 115 years here in Indian Country, USA, there has been no interest in these four works of literature on the part of an member of the indigenous communities of the Northern and Southern Plains that represent the Siouan, Caddoan and other indigenous languages families. As such, for my part, I have not available time to spend in satisfying someone?s whims to translate some phrase or work of no consequence to the language communities just for the hell of it, i.e., the sake of making a translation. Such tasks can be given to the idle hands of someone who has nothing better to do with their time. Sincerely, Jimm G. Goodtracks Jimm G. Goodtracks B?xoje Jiw?re Language Project PO Box 55 Tecumseh, KS 66542 Uk?nadheda waw??arana, ich^? nah?, inj? et?we war?xi?eda ad??e?dan ? w?gi?i kigr??ige ?thgare ke. ?In the middle of resisting, the language got caught, only showing her face in ceremony, like she?s ashamed of her scars.? (www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FUgDutdauQ&feature=share -----Original Message----- From: Erik Hanson Sent: Friday, April 11, 2014 9:54 AM To: Jimm Goodtracks Subject: Alice translation Hello: "Alice" is one of the standards that translators deal with and think about. It's the fourth most quoted work in history (after the Bible, Koran, and the complete works of Shakespeare) and the only one of the four both secular and of a manageable size. It has already been translated and published into 125 languages, back to the 1860s and probably a few more unpublished. There is no insult to be read into a desire for a short bit, at least, to be rendered into any/every language. I do question the merits of that particular bit. Regards, Erik Sent from my iPhone, please forgive typos and brevity. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jfu at LAKHOTA.ORG Sat Apr 12 13:25:54 2014 From: jfu at LAKHOTA.ORG (Jan Ullrich) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 15:25:54 +0200 Subject: Alice translation In-Reply-To: <32e2f0cc555242688f8974ba4c0cfde4@DM2PR08MB525.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: >> Alice was a Victorian-age English girl. When she fell down the rabbit hole and sampled the mushrooms, she said: ?Curiouser and curiouser.? A modern day American girl might communicate the same message with the formula: ?Well, this is really getting weird.? Here, the same substantive message can be communicated at least two different ways in the same language without using any of the same words or grammatical devices. >>> In the mouths of fluent speakers, Siouan languages most likely had ways of expressing this same message. It is not culturally specific; anybody, anywhere, might have occasion to utter it. Lexically, we might want to check to see if we have one or more words meaning ?curious?, in the sense of ?strange?, ?odd?, ?weird?, or ?contrary to expectations?. If not, some word in the language probably got overlooked, and if we still have speakers we should search for it. Rorry, I think that in the context you described the expression is to a high degree synonymous with the words ?mysterious? and perhaps ?magical?. So one of the possible free translations of the sentence into Lakota is this: ?S??m wakh?? ?ye? (more / mysterious / it is becoming gradually or changing cumulatively). Jan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.rood at COLORADO.EDU Sat Apr 12 13:34:04 2014 From: david.rood at COLORADO.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 07:34:04 -0600 Subject: regrets and thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dave, if Carolyn is willing, I think it would be much better to try to arrange for a book or a series of journal publications (e.g. a special issue of IJAL) rather than an archive. Things get buried in archives. However, I know that a lot of what Bob circulated to us was stuff he considered unfinished. The extent to which anyone else would consider that work publishable needs to be discussed with Carolyn. Best, David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Fri, 11 Apr 2014, David Kaufman wrote: > I don't know if Bob expressed such an interest, at least not to me, and > possibly not to Carolyn either (she didn't mention it). I'd have to look > into how we would go about submitting papers to these organizations for > their archives. Any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated. > > Dave > > David Kaufman > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > > On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 1:26 PM, David Costa wrote: > >> Did Bob ever express a preference as to where his papers should end up? I >> would assume either the NAA or the APS would be best... >> >> Dave Costa >> >> >> Hi David and all, >> >> Sorry to hear David that you won't be able to make it to the SCLC this >> year. >> >> I know we have talked about doing a Festschrift in Bob's honor, and this >> is certainly something we can discuss at the meeting. Hopefully our >> organizers can set aside some time on the schedule so we can all >> participate in this discussion. >> >> As for the CSD, I think it's a great idea to have it finalized and >> published in some form, either electronically or in print, or both. >> >> As concerns Bob's unpublished papers and computer files, Carolyn, Bob's >> wife, and I have been in touch fairly regularly. Even before Bob's death, >> she said that she and Bob had discussed it and thought it would be best >> that I come up to their house and "clean out" his garage full of files, >> books, etc. Also, I plan to take a USB drive and download as much of his >> computer files as possible, at least some of which I know pertain to Kaw. >> I'll be happy to distribute whatever I find pertaining to other Siouan >> languages to those of you who want it. I'm hoping to go up and do this in >> the next couple of months, possibly in early June or so before it gets too >> hot. I know Carolyn is thinking about selling the house and moving up to >> be with family in Wisconsin, so this cleaning out will have to be done >> fairly soon anyway. >> >> Anyway, I'll keep everyone posted as plans for these things become more >> concrete. Things are a bit crazy for me right now as I work full-time for >> the Kaw Nation and try to finish my dissertation without yet having another >> committee member to substitute for Bob. I hope to defend in May, but I'm >> still awaiting final word on a new committee member and date from my >> advisor. >> >> Dave >> >> David Kaufman >> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 12:27 PM, ROOD DAVID S wrote: >> >>> Hi, everyone, >>> My family schedule for at least part of the summer has finally >>> settled down, and I regret that it precludes me from attending the SCLC >>> again this year. The earliest I could get to Madison would be >>> mid-afternoon on Saturday, hardly the appropriate time for participating in >>> the meeting. >>> >>> I am very much interested in what is decided about honoring Bob >>> Rankin, however, and in what might be done to make his huge contribution to >>> the history of Siouan and the structure of Dhegiah part of a permanent >>> record. I know he has many papers that have never been published, as well >>> as many that are published here and there in places we don't always know >>> about. As early as 1984, at the workshop that launched the Comparative >>> Dictionary project, I proposed a "collection of papers" volume that would >>> be a place for his work (and others), but that has never materialized. >>> Moreover, for the last few years Bob was the major player in the >>> evolution of the Comparative Dictionary. As most of you know, Iren >>> Hartmann at the MPI-Leipzig is working on creating a usable digital verson >>> of the CSD. Of the original 5 participants (John Koontz, Wes Jones, Dick >>> Carter, Rankin and me) in the project, I guess I'm the only one who is >>> still interested and available, so I'm going to work with Iren to see if >>> that can't be finalized and formalized. There is quite a bit of urgency >>> here, because as many of you know, the structure of the MPI in Leipzig will >>> change dramatically in May of 2015, and they will likely no longer be >>> interested in supporting Iren's work. >>> >>> If any of you have any thoughts on how best to move forward with >>> either Bob's legacy or the CSD, please discuss them at the meeting and keep >>> me informed. I don't feel like I know Carolyn well enough to approach her >>> about any of this; perhaps one of you would be willing to help with that. >>> >>> Best wishes to all for a fruitful and fun meeting. >>> >>> David >>> >>> David S. Rood >>> Dept. of Linguistics >>> Univ. of Colorado >>> 295 UCB >>> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >>> USA >>> rood at colorado.edu >>> >> >> >> > From david.rood at COLORADO.EDU Sat Apr 12 13:34:44 2014 From: david.rood at COLORADO.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 07:34:44 -0600 Subject: Alice translation In-Reply-To: <32e2f0cc555242688f8974ba4c0cfde4@DM2PR08MB525.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Rory, thank you for this extremely articulate essay. I agree with you absolutely. I got the same request for translation into Wichita and simply threw up my hands -- I have no idea how to begin to express this idea, but now you've got me thinking I should explore it. But maybe not right now. Best, David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Sat, 12 Apr 2014, Rory Larson wrote: > The discussion is interesting, but I think much of it is missing the point. We???re assuming that the translation is for the purpose of putting substantive material into a Siouan language. At this stage, any such enterprise is purely for vanity, since there are hardly any monolingual speakers left, hungry for the message of the Bible or Shakespeare or whatever, if only it could be put into their Siouan native tongue. Even if there were, I tend to share Jimm???s nativist attitude. Rather than inject a Western cultural corpus into Siouan, I would much rather hear and record Native stories and experience in their own native tongue. Insofar as this is still possible, I think this is about the most important thing we can be doing. > > But I suspect that the quote requested is not about the literary message, whether it came from ???Alice??? or anywhere else. Rather, we are being challenged to analyze our languages??? grammar. It is not about Alice in Wonderland. It is about how the language goes about communicating elements of standard experience that we too easily overlook as we compile our word lists. > > Alice was a Victorian-age English girl. When she fell down the rabbit hole and sampled the mushrooms, she said: ???Curiouser and curiouser.??? A modern day American girl might communicate the same message with the formula: ???Well, this is really getting weird.??? Here, the same substantive message can be communicated at least two different ways in the same language without using any of the same words or grammatical devices. > > In the mouths of fluent speakers, Siouan languages most likely had ways of expressing this same message. It is not culturally specific; anybody, anywhere, might have occasion to utter it. Lexically, we might want to check to see if we have one or more words meaning ???curious???, in the sense of ???strange???, ???odd???, ???weird???, or ???contrary to expectations???. If not, some word in the language probably got overlooked, and if we still have speakers we should search for it. > > At the syntactic level, we should study how the language deals with a quality steadily increasing or decreasing. It doesn???t have to be strangeness. It could just as well be heat. At the beginning of the week, it was 20 degrees Fahrenheit out. Three days ago it was 50 degrees. Yesterday it was 70, and today it is 90. You are a native Siouan speaker, living 200 years ago, and you want to comment on this phenomenon. How do you say it? In English, we would say: ???It???s getting hotter and hotter.??? But the Siouan languages didn???t have those English devices. What devices did they have to express this sort of idea? If we don???t know what those devices were, then we don???t know the languages we are studying and trying to preserve. > > As I understand, the person asking for the translation is a linguist who is not just asking for a translation, but also a morpheme by morpheme analysis of it. Presumably he is doing a wide survey comparison of languages and the devices they use to express this thought. Certainly, we may have important things we need to be doing, and may not choose to volunteer an answer. But let???s not disparage the question or the questioner. I think the question is serious, and that making the effort to try to answer it may help us to improve our own game as well. > > Best, > Rory > > > > From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mcbride, Justin > Sent: Friday, April 11, 2014 4:49 PM > To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU > Subject: Re: Alice translation > > Interesting discussion. I do know that Dorsey, who began his linguistic work as a Christian missionary (to the Poncas?), started an OP translation of the Gospel According to St. Mark, which appears in the microfilm reels that Mark photographed up at the National Anthropological Archives. I can't recall how far he got with it, but I remember seeing it. I also know that at my time at the Kaw Nation, a handful of people did ask me about the availability of Bible translations or portions and were disappointed to know that there were none beyond the Lord's Prayer. There was enough interest that we finally made the Lord's Prayer as told by Maude Rowe available online. Furthermore, having attended one of Father Graczyk's masses at Pryor, which was at least partially in Crow, and having been numerous times to the Hominy Friends Meeting where Osage is used on a weekly basis, I would suspect that certain Siouan language Bible translations would very much be welcome additions to those congregations. So, at least from my experience, I would respectfully suggest that there is some degree of interest for such work in these communities. Still, I would agree that I've never personally heard requests for translations of the Koran, Shakespeare, or Carroll. Frankly, I would guess that there's not enough Siouan language literacy or demand for written materials outside of class or church organizations in many of the Southern communities in Oklahoma to warrant much time spent translating these sorts of extended non-Native literary works when, as Jimm rightly says, there are probably far more pressing matters. The tribes themselves have their own stories, after all. > > Peace, > -Justin > > On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 11:19 AM, De Reuse, Willem > wrote: > > Interesting discussion. I did not know about Alice in Wonderland. As someone who works on Apache, I get a lot of requests for translations, as Apache is one of these "iconic" Native American languages. > > > > One has to pick and choose, if it is short and culturally appropriate, I generally agree to it. I remember once translating a short Jewish prayer into Apache. The Apaches liked it. After all Apaches, like Jews, know something about wandering about in the desert. > > > > Then other requests have to be nixed, like the set of "Spring Break" phrases I once was asked to translate, things like "I am so drunk", and "where is the bathroom?". > > > > Portions of the Bible have more appeal that the other four works. I add a link to a nice example. Thanks Jimm for this. > > > > http://iowayotoelang.nativeweb.org/pdf/christmasstory.pdf > > > > Another great Bible story that has been used for linguistic work is the Parable of Prodigal son, which has been recorded in many more versions than the New Testament itself, and probably second in number of translations to the Lord's Prayer. One does not have to be a Christian to appreciate this parable is an awfully good story, of almost universal appeal, except maybe to vegans! > > > > Willem > > ________________________________ > From: Siouan Linguistics > on behalf of Jimm Goodtracks > > Sent: Friday, April 11, 2014 10:27 AM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Re: Alice translation > > Dear Erik Hanson: > > I cannot refute what you say below in regard to your statement that Alice in Wonderland, the Bible, Koran and Shakespeare are the most translated and published in various languages of the world. If you say so, I will take it as so on face value. However, I assure you that in the last 115 years here in Indian Country, USA, there has been no interest in these four works of literature on the part of an member of the indigenous communities of the Northern and Southern Plains that represent the Siouan, Caddoan and other indigenous languages families. > > As such, for my part, I have not available time to spend in satisfying someone???s whims to translate some phrase or work of no consequence to the language communities just for the hell of it, i.e., the sake of making a translation. Such tasks can be given to the idle hands of someone who has nothing better to do with their time. > > Sincerely, > Jimm G. Goodtracks > Jimm G. Goodtracks > B??xoje Jiw??re Language Project > PO Box 55 > Tecumseh, KS 66542 > > > Uk??nadheda waw????arana, ich^?? nah??, inj?? et??we war??xi??eda ad????e??dan ??? w??gi??i kigr????ige ??thgare ke. > ???In the middle of resisting, the language got caught, only showing her face in ceremony, like she???s ashamed of her scars.??? > (www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FUgDutdauQ&feature=share > > -----Original Message----- > From: Erik Hanson > Sent: Friday, April 11, 2014 9:54 AM > To: Jimm Goodtracks > Subject: Alice translation > > Hello: > > "Alice" is one of the standards that translators deal with and think about. It's the fourth most quoted work in history (after the Bible, Koran, and the complete works of Shakespeare) and the only one of the four both secular and of a manageable size. It has already been translated and published into 125 languages, back to the 1860s and probably a few more unpublished. There is no insult to be read into a desire for a short bit, at least, to be rendered into any/every language. I do question the merits of that particular bit. > > Regards, Erik > > > Sent from my iPhone, please forgive typos and brevity. > > From jpboyle at LANGUAGECONSERVANCY.ORG Sat Apr 12 14:17:50 2014 From: jpboyle at LANGUAGECONSERVANCY.ORG (John P. Boyle) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 09:17:50 -0500 Subject: regrets and thoughts In-Reply-To: <8D123DD08BE83B5-1284-3C8A@webmail-d267.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Hi All, Bob was very good about sending me stuff for The Siouan Archive. This was all material that he thought was in good enough shape to share with us, although several unpublished manuscripts he didn't want distributed past a small group (there are only 2 or 3 of these type of documents). In all, I have 15 single authored published papers and 25 singled authored unpublished papers, including his translation of the Dorsey texts. This is a total of 40 singled authored papers and articles. I have another 4 coauthored published papers and 4 coauthored unpublished papers, including the Comparative Siouan Dictionary. Some (about 3 or 4) of the unpublished papers became published papers, so there is some redundancy. Bob was always very explicated with me in that he wanted his material to be available for people to use and if anyone found errors in any of it, he wanted to know so that it could be corrected (the only corrections I know of were from older sources that Bob used as he didn't personally do field work on every language (e.g. Riggs' Dakota material or Kennard's Mandan material). I am missing some of his presentations for several Siouan conferences, but that is because he didn't feel they were good enough to share or they got folded into additional work at a later date. Take as a whole, this is a tremendous legacy of Siouan linguistics spanning research from 1974 to 2012. If there is anything I can do to help compile, sort or edit his material, just let me know. All the best, John From: Randy Graczyk Reply-To: Siouan Linguistics Date: Friday, April 11, 2014 3:37 PM To: Subject: Re: regrets and thoughts I just looked through my files, and I have 26 papers by Bob Rankin. There are undoubtedly some that I don't have. I know some of these have been published (often in out-of-the-way journals), but many have not. All of them are worth passing on to future generations of Siouanists. Randy -----Original Message----- From: Mary C Marino To: SIOUAN Sent: Fri, Apr 11, 2014 2:20 pm Subject: Re: regrets and thoughts It happens; a will does not necessarily make things any easier for the survivors. Could the university provide you with some space for storage of the materials, where you (and maybe others) could work on them? Mary On 11/04/2014 1:36 PM, David Kaufman wrote: > > Mary, > > > > It's my understanding that Bob did not leave a will. > > > > > Dave > > > > > > > David Kaufman > > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 2:28 PM, Mary C Marino wrote: > >> >> >> Did Bob leave any instructions about these matters in his Will? >> >> Mary >> >> >> >> On 11/04/2014 12:12 PM, David Kaufman wrote: >> >> >>> >>> Hi David and all, >>> >>> >>> >>> Sorry to hear David that you won't be able to make it to the SCLC this year. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I know we have talked about doing a Festschrift in Bob's honor, and this is >>> certainly something we can discuss at the meeting. Hopefully our organizers >>> can set aside some time on the schedule so we can all participate in this >>> discussion. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> As for the CSD, I think it's a great idea to have it finalized and published >>> in some form, either electronically or in print, or both. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> As concerns Bob's unpublished papers and computer files, Carolyn, Bob's >>> wife, and I have been in touch fairly regularly. Even before Bob's death, >>> she said that she and Bob had discussed it and thought it would be best that >>> I come up to their house and "clean out" his garage full of files, books, >>> etc. Also, I plan to take a USB drive and download as much of his computer >>> files as possible, at least some of which I know pertain to Kaw. I'll be >>> happy to distribute whatever I find pertaining to other Siouan languages to >>> those of you who want it. I'm hoping to go up and do this in the next >>> couple of months, possibly in early June or so before it gets too hot. I >>> know Carolyn is thinking about selling the house and moving up to be with >>> family in Wisconsin, so this cleaning out will have to be done fairly soon >>> anyway. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Anyway, I'll keep everyone posted as plans for these things become more >>> concrete. Things are a bit crazy for me right now as I work full-time for >>> the Kaw Nation and try to finish my dissertation without yet having another >>> committee member to substitute for Bob. I hope to defend in May, but I'm >>> still awaiting final word on a new committee member and date from my >>> advisor. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> David Kaufman >>> >>> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >>> >>> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 12:27 PM, ROOD DAVID S >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi, everyone, >>>> My family schedule for at least part of the summer has finally >>>> settled down, and I regret that it precludes me from attending the SCLC >>>> again this year. The earliest I could get to Madison would be >>>> mid-afternoon on Saturday, hardly the appropriate time for participating in >>>> the meeting. >>>> >>>> I am very much interested in what is decided about honoring Bob >>>> Rankin, however, and in what might be done to make his huge contribution to >>>> the history of Siouan and the structure of Dhegiah part of a permanent >>>> record. I know he has many papers that have never been published, as well >>>> as many that are published here and there in places we don't always know >>>> about. As early as 1984, at the workshop that launched the Comparative >>>> Dictionary project, I proposed a "collection of papers" volume that would >>>> be a place for his work (and others), but that has never materialized. >>>> Moreover, for the last few years Bob was the major player in the >>>> evolution of the Comparative Dictionary. As most of you know, Iren >>>> Hartmann at the MPI-Leipzig is working on creating a usable digital verson >>>> of the CSD. Of the original 5 participants (John Koontz, Wes Jones, Dick >>>> Carter, Rankin and me) in the project, I guess I'm the only one who is >>>> still interested and available, so I'm going to work with Iren to see if >>>> that can't be finalized and formalized. There is quite a bit of urgency >>>> here, because as many of you know, the structure of the MPI in Leipzig will >>>> change dramatically in May of 2015, and they will likely no longer be >>>> interested in supporting Iren's work. >>>> >>>> If any of you have any thoughts on how best to move forward with >>>> either Bob's legacy or the CSD, please discuss them at the meeting and keep >>>> me informed. I don't feel like I know Carolyn well enough to approach her >>>> about any of this; perhaps one of you would be willing to help with that. >>>> >>>> Best wishes to all for a fruitful and fun meeting. >>>> >>>> David >>>> >>>> David S. Rood >>>> Dept. of Linguistics >>>> Univ. of Colorado >>>> 295 UCB >>>> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >>>> USA >>>> rood at colorado.edu >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU Sat Apr 12 14:53:37 2014 From: WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU (De Reuse, Willem) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 14:53:37 +0000 Subject: regrets and thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I agree with you, David. We do need to be a circumspect about publishing a volume of Bob's unpublished papers. I can think of a few places where the wordings in his unpublished papers are not quite felicitous, and it would not be a proper tribute to Bob to publish such things without the proper editing, or at all. Such things might not necessarily embarrass Carolyn, because she is not a linguist, but other Siouanists should have a fair amount of input on which papers can be published, so that we avoid the awkward situation in which we have Bob say something not quite right in print posthumously. Best, Willem ________________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics on behalf of ROOD DAVID S Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2014 8:34 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: regrets and thoughts Dave, if Carolyn is willing, I think it would be much better to try to arrange for a book or a series of journal publications (e.g. a special issue of IJAL) rather than an archive. Things get buried in archives. However, I know that a lot of what Bob circulated to us was stuff he considered unfinished. The extent to which anyone else would consider that work publishable needs to be discussed with Carolyn. Best, David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Fri, 11 Apr 2014, David Kaufman wrote: > I don't know if Bob expressed such an interest, at least not to me, and > possibly not to Carolyn either (she didn't mention it). I'd have to look > into how we would go about submitting papers to these organizations for > their archives. Any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated. > > Dave > > David Kaufman > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > > On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 1:26 PM, David Costa wrote: > >> Did Bob ever express a preference as to where his papers should end up? I >> would assume either the NAA or the APS would be best... >> >> Dave Costa >> >> >> Hi David and all, >> >> Sorry to hear David that you won't be able to make it to the SCLC this >> year. >> >> I know we have talked about doing a Festschrift in Bob's honor, and this >> is certainly something we can discuss at the meeting. Hopefully our >> organizers can set aside some time on the schedule so we can all >> participate in this discussion. >> >> As for the CSD, I think it's a great idea to have it finalized and >> published in some form, either electronically or in print, or both. >> >> As concerns Bob's unpublished papers and computer files, Carolyn, Bob's >> wife, and I have been in touch fairly regularly. Even before Bob's death, >> she said that she and Bob had discussed it and thought it would be best >> that I come up to their house and "clean out" his garage full of files, >> books, etc. Also, I plan to take a USB drive and download as much of his >> computer files as possible, at least some of which I know pertain to Kaw. >> I'll be happy to distribute whatever I find pertaining to other Siouan >> languages to those of you who want it. I'm hoping to go up and do this in >> the next couple of months, possibly in early June or so before it gets too >> hot. I know Carolyn is thinking about selling the house and moving up to >> be with family in Wisconsin, so this cleaning out will have to be done >> fairly soon anyway. >> >> Anyway, I'll keep everyone posted as plans for these things become more >> concrete. Things are a bit crazy for me right now as I work full-time for >> the Kaw Nation and try to finish my dissertation without yet having another >> committee member to substitute for Bob. I hope to defend in May, but I'm >> still awaiting final word on a new committee member and date from my >> advisor. >> >> Dave >> >> David Kaufman >> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 12:27 PM, ROOD DAVID S wrote: >> >>> Hi, everyone, >>> My family schedule for at least part of the summer has finally >>> settled down, and I regret that it precludes me from attending the SCLC >>> again this year. The earliest I could get to Madison would be >>> mid-afternoon on Saturday, hardly the appropriate time for participating in >>> the meeting. >>> >>> I am very much interested in what is decided about honoring Bob >>> Rankin, however, and in what might be done to make his huge contribution to >>> the history of Siouan and the structure of Dhegiah part of a permanent >>> record. I know he has many papers that have never been published, as well >>> as many that are published here and there in places we don't always know >>> about. As early as 1984, at the workshop that launched the Comparative >>> Dictionary project, I proposed a "collection of papers" volume that would >>> be a place for his work (and others), but that has never materialized. >>> Moreover, for the last few years Bob was the major player in the >>> evolution of the Comparative Dictionary. As most of you know, Iren >>> Hartmann at the MPI-Leipzig is working on creating a usable digital verson >>> of the CSD. Of the original 5 participants (John Koontz, Wes Jones, Dick >>> Carter, Rankin and me) in the project, I guess I'm the only one who is >>> still interested and available, so I'm going to work with Iren to see if >>> that can't be finalized and formalized. There is quite a bit of urgency >>> here, because as many of you know, the structure of the MPI in Leipzig will >>> change dramatically in May of 2015, and they will likely no longer be >>> interested in supporting Iren's work. >>> >>> If any of you have any thoughts on how best to move forward with >>> either Bob's legacy or the CSD, please discuss them at the meeting and keep >>> me informed. I don't feel like I know Carolyn well enough to approach her >>> about any of this; perhaps one of you would be willing to help with that. >>> >>> Best wishes to all for a fruitful and fun meeting. >>> >>> David >>> >>> David S. Rood >>> Dept. of Linguistics >>> Univ. of Colorado >>> 295 UCB >>> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >>> USA >>> rood at colorado.edu >>> >> >> >> > From mithun at LINGUISTICS.UCSB.EDU Sat Apr 12 16:21:00 2014 From: mithun at LINGUISTICS.UCSB.EDU (Marianne Mithun) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 09:21:00 -0700 Subject: regrets and thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I completely agree with David. There is so much there, and when I've asked Bob about various things, he's come up with handouts from 25 years earlier, and papers from decades before or recently, all of them so valuable. A tricky call of course. How many of us would like our unfinished work out there. But so much of Bob's work was really finished. Marianne --On Saturday, April 12, 2014 7:34 AM -0600 ROOD DAVID S wrote: > Dave, if Carolyn is willing, I think it would be much better to try to > arrange for a book or a series of journal publications (e.g. a special > issue of IJAL) rather than an archive. Things get buried in archives. > However, I know that a lot of what Bob circulated to us was stuff he > considered unfinished. The extent to which anyone else would consider > that work publishable needs to be discussed with Carolyn. > > Best, > David > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > On Fri, 11 Apr 2014, David Kaufman wrote: > >> I don't know if Bob expressed such an interest, at least not to me, and >> possibly not to Carolyn either (she didn't mention it). I'd have to look >> into how we would go about submitting papers to these organizations for >> their archives. Any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated. >> >> Dave >> >> David Kaufman >> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 1:26 PM, David Costa >> wrote: >> >>> Did Bob ever express a preference as to where his papers should end up? >>> I would assume either the NAA or the APS would be best... >>> >>> Dave Costa >>> >>> >>> Hi David and all, >>> >>> Sorry to hear David that you won't be able to make it to the SCLC this >>> year. >>> >>> I know we have talked about doing a Festschrift in Bob's honor, and this >>> is certainly something we can discuss at the meeting. Hopefully our >>> organizers can set aside some time on the schedule so we can all >>> participate in this discussion. >>> >>> As for the CSD, I think it's a great idea to have it finalized and >>> published in some form, either electronically or in print, or both. >>> >>> As concerns Bob's unpublished papers and computer files, Carolyn, Bob's >>> wife, and I have been in touch fairly regularly. Even before Bob's >>> death, she said that she and Bob had discussed it and thought it would >>> be best that I come up to their house and "clean out" his garage full >>> of files, books, etc. Also, I plan to take a USB drive and download as >>> much of his computer files as possible, at least some of which I know >>> pertain to Kaw. I'll be happy to distribute whatever I find pertaining >>> to other Siouan languages to those of you who want it. I'm hoping to >>> go up and do this in the next couple of months, possibly in early June >>> or so before it gets too hot. I know Carolyn is thinking about selling >>> the house and moving up to be with family in Wisconsin, so this >>> cleaning out will have to be done fairly soon anyway. >>> >>> Anyway, I'll keep everyone posted as plans for these things become more >>> concrete. Things are a bit crazy for me right now as I work full-time >>> for the Kaw Nation and try to finish my dissertation without yet having >>> another committee member to substitute for Bob. I hope to defend in >>> May, but I'm still awaiting final word on a new committee member and >>> date from my advisor. >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> David Kaufman >>> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >>> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 12:27 PM, ROOD DAVID S >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi, everyone, >>>> My family schedule for at least part of the summer has finally >>>> settled down, and I regret that it precludes me from attending the SCLC >>>> again this year. The earliest I could get to Madison would be >>>> mid-afternoon on Saturday, hardly the appropriate time for >>>> participating in the meeting. >>>> >>>> I am very much interested in what is decided about honoring Bob >>>> Rankin, however, and in what might be done to make his huge >>>> contribution to the history of Siouan and the structure of Dhegiah >>>> part of a permanent record. I know he has many papers that have never >>>> been published, as well as many that are published here and there in >>>> places we don't always know about. As early as 1984, at the workshop >>>> that launched the Comparative Dictionary project, I proposed a >>>> "collection of papers" volume that would be a place for his work (and >>>> others), but that has never materialized. Moreover, for the last few >>>> years Bob was the major player in the evolution of the >>>> Comparative Dictionary. As most of you know, Iren Hartmann at the >>>> MPI-Leipzig is working on creating a usable digital verson of the CSD. >>>> Of the original 5 participants (John Koontz, Wes Jones, Dick Carter, >>>> Rankin and me) in the project, I guess I'm the only one who is still >>>> interested and available, so I'm going to work with Iren to see if >>>> that can't be finalized and formalized. There is quite a bit of >>>> urgency here, because as many of you know, the structure of the MPI in >>>> Leipzig will change dramatically in May of 2015, and they will likely >>>> no longer be interested in supporting Iren's work. >>>> >>>> If any of you have any thoughts on how best to move forward >>>> with either Bob's legacy or the CSD, please discuss them at >>>> the meeting and keep me informed. I don't feel like I know Carolyn >>>> well enough to approach her about any of this; perhaps one of you >>>> would be willing to help with that. >>>> >>>> Best wishes to all for a fruitful and fun meeting. >>>> >>>> David >>>> >>>> David S. Rood >>>> Dept. of Linguistics >>>> Univ. of Colorado >>>> 295 UCB >>>> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >>>> USA >>>> rood at colorado.edu >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> From mer.anne.johnson at GMAIL.COM Sat Apr 12 17:27:45 2014 From: mer.anne.johnson at GMAIL.COM (Meredith Johnson) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 12:27:45 -0500 Subject: regrets and thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi all, Yes, we are certainly open to setting aside some time at the conference for the Festschrift. We had previously asked about how much time would be needed, but never heard anything back. If anyone has any preferences on how much time or when in the schedule to put it, please let us know by tomorrow night. We are finalizing a tentative schedule tomorrow night, and will circulate it to the list by Monday at the latest. All the best, Meredith > On Apr 11, 2014, at 1:12 PM, David Kaufman wrote: > > Hi David and all, > > Sorry to hear David that you won't be able to make it to the SCLC this year. > > I know we have talked about doing a Festschrift in Bob's honor, and this is certainly something we can discuss at the meeting. Hopefully our organizers can set aside some time on the schedule so we can all participate in this discussion. > > As for the CSD, I think it's a great idea to have it finalized and published in some form, either electronically or in print, or both. > > As concerns Bob's unpublished papers and computer files, Carolyn, Bob's wife, and I have been in touch fairly regularly. Even before Bob's death, she said that she and Bob had discussed it and thought it would be best that I come up to their house and "clean out" his garage full of files, books, etc. Also, I plan to take a USB drive and download as much of his computer files as possible, at least some of which I know pertain to Kaw. I'll be happy to distribute whatever I find pertaining to other Siouan languages to those of you who want it. I'm hoping to go up and do this in the next couple of months, possibly in early June or so before it gets too hot. I know Carolyn is thinking about selling the house and moving up to be with family in Wisconsin, so this cleaning out will have to be done fairly soon anyway. > > Anyway, I'll keep everyone posted as plans for these things become more concrete. Things are a bit crazy for me right now as I work full-time for the Kaw Nation and try to finish my dissertation without yet having another committee member to substitute for Bob. I hope to defend in May, but I'm still awaiting final word on a new committee member and date from my advisor. > > Dave > > David Kaufman > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > >> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 12:27 PM, ROOD DAVID S wrote: >> Hi, everyone, >> My family schedule for at least part of the summer has finally settled down, and I regret that it precludes me from attending the SCLC again this year. The earliest I could get to Madison would be mid-afternoon on Saturday, hardly the appropriate time for participating in the meeting. >> >> I am very much interested in what is decided about honoring Bob Rankin, however, and in what might be done to make his huge contribution to the history of Siouan and the structure of Dhegiah part of a permanent record. I know he has many papers that have never been published, as well as many that are published here and there in places we don't always know about. As early as 1984, at the workshop that launched the Comparative Dictionary project, I proposed a "collection of papers" volume that would be a place for his work (and others), but that has never materialized. >> Moreover, for the last few years Bob was the major player in the evolution of the Comparative Dictionary. As most of you know, Iren Hartmann at the MPI-Leipzig is working on creating a usable digital verson of the CSD. Of the original 5 participants (John Koontz, Wes Jones, Dick Carter, Rankin and me) in the project, I guess I'm the only one who is still interested and available, so I'm going to work with Iren to see if that can't be finalized and formalized. There is quite a bit of urgency here, because as many of you know, the structure of the MPI in Leipzig will change dramatically in May of 2015, and they will likely no longer be interested in supporting Iren's work. >> >> If any of you have any thoughts on how best to move forward with either Bob's legacy or the CSD, please discuss them at the meeting and keep me informed. I don't feel like I know Carolyn well enough to approach her about any of this; perhaps one of you would be willing to help with that. >> >> Best wishes to all for a fruitful and fun meeting. >> >> David >> >> David S. Rood >> Dept. of Linguistics >> Univ. of Colorado >> 295 UCB >> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >> USA >> rood at colorado.edu > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Sat Apr 12 18:12:45 2014 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 13:12:45 -0500 Subject: regrets and thoughts In-Reply-To: <8283DB97-FE4F-4F7D-AE44-38569D863092@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Meredith, I think setting aside at least half an hour would be good, maybe later in the day after other presentations. Others might have different thoughts, but that should be a good start. Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program On Sat, Apr 12, 2014 at 12:27 PM, Meredith Johnson < mer.anne.johnson at gmail.com> wrote: > Hi all, > > Yes, we are certainly open to setting aside some time at the conference > for the Festschrift. We had previously asked about how much time would be > needed, but never heard anything back. If anyone has any preferences on how > much time or when in the schedule to put it, please let us know by tomorrow > night. We are finalizing a tentative schedule tomorrow night, and will > circulate it to the list by Monday at the latest. > > All the best, > Meredith > > > On Apr 11, 2014, at 1:12 PM, David Kaufman wrote: > > Hi David and all, > > Sorry to hear David that you won't be able to make it to the SCLC this > year. > > I know we have talked about doing a Festschrift in Bob's honor, and this > is certainly something we can discuss at the meeting. Hopefully our > organizers can set aside some time on the schedule so we can all > participate in this discussion. > > As for the CSD, I think it's a great idea to have it finalized and > published in some form, either electronically or in print, or both. > > As concerns Bob's unpublished papers and computer files, Carolyn, Bob's > wife, and I have been in touch fairly regularly. Even before Bob's death, > she said that she and Bob had discussed it and thought it would be best > that I come up to their house and "clean out" his garage full of files, > books, etc. Also, I plan to take a USB drive and download as much of his > computer files as possible, at least some of which I know pertain to Kaw. > I'll be happy to distribute whatever I find pertaining to other Siouan > languages to those of you who want it. I'm hoping to go up and do this in > the next couple of months, possibly in early June or so before it gets too > hot. I know Carolyn is thinking about selling the house and moving up to > be with family in Wisconsin, so this cleaning out will have to be done > fairly soon anyway. > > Anyway, I'll keep everyone posted as plans for these things become more > concrete. Things are a bit crazy for me right now as I work full-time for > the Kaw Nation and try to finish my dissertation without yet having another > committee member to substitute for Bob. I hope to defend in May, but I'm > still awaiting final word on a new committee member and date from my > advisor. > > Dave > > David Kaufman > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > > On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 12:27 PM, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > >> Hi, everyone, >> My family schedule for at least part of the summer has finally >> settled down, and I regret that it precludes me from attending the SCLC >> again this year. The earliest I could get to Madison would be >> mid-afternoon on Saturday, hardly the appropriate time for participating in >> the meeting. >> >> I am very much interested in what is decided about honoring Bob >> Rankin, however, and in what might be done to make his huge contribution to >> the history of Siouan and the structure of Dhegiah part of a permanent >> record. I know he has many papers that have never been published, as well >> as many that are published here and there in places we don't always know >> about. As early as 1984, at the workshop that launched the Comparative >> Dictionary project, I proposed a "collection of papers" volume that would >> be a place for his work (and others), but that has never materialized. >> Moreover, for the last few years Bob was the major player in the >> evolution of the Comparative Dictionary. As most of you know, Iren >> Hartmann at the MPI-Leipzig is working on creating a usable digital verson >> of the CSD. Of the original 5 participants (John Koontz, Wes Jones, Dick >> Carter, Rankin and me) in the project, I guess I'm the only one who is >> still interested and available, so I'm going to work with Iren to see if >> that can't be finalized and formalized. There is quite a bit of urgency >> here, because as many of you know, the structure of the MPI in Leipzig will >> change dramatically in May of 2015, and they will likely no longer be >> interested in supporting Iren's work. >> >> If any of you have any thoughts on how best to move forward with >> either Bob's legacy or the CSD, please discuss them at the meeting and keep >> me informed. I don't feel like I know Carolyn well enough to approach her >> about any of this; perhaps one of you would be willing to help with that. >> >> Best wishes to all for a fruitful and fun meeting. >> >> David >> >> David S. Rood >> Dept. of Linguistics >> Univ. of Colorado >> 295 UCB >> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >> USA >> rood at colorado.edu >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From carudin1 at WSC.EDU Sat Apr 12 18:18:33 2014 From: carudin1 at WSC.EDU (Catherine Rudin) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 13:18:33 -0500 Subject: regrets and thoughts Message-ID: So, it looks to me like we're talking about at least two different things, maybe three, all of which I would like to see done. (1) A collection of Bob's papers, to be published as a book and/or perhaps a journal special issue. The Siouan archive collection would be a good start on gathering these papers, though there might be others that he never sent in. These would be work that was finished (or close to it) but either not published or published in out-of-the-way places. Someone would need to select which works to include, edit them (as has been pointed out, some may not be quite ready for public consumption), and of course find a publisher. Volunteers? (2) A different collection of less-polished or fragmentary material, to be given to some appropriate archive. I imagine a lot of what Dave K will find in the "garage full of files" will be notes, correspondence, class handouts ... the kind of things that don't belong in a book or journal but that might well be of great interest to future researchers. Yes, things do get buried in archives, as someone said, but at least they are there for some future person to dig up. Bob once sent me a bunch of his old class handouts on comparative Romance; nothing publishable, but invaluable in putting together my own Romance linguistics course. I bet there's lots of similar stuff on Siouan in that garage. Someone (Dave K?) would need to contact an archive & do some sorting... (3) A festschrift in Bob's honor. This would presumably be a selection of papers on Siouan languages by some of us, though it might include a paper or two of Bob's too. There was a suggestion earlier that it could serve as a venue for some of the papers from the abandoned Comparative Siouan Syntax project. This one would take a fair amount of cat-herding, getting people to send papers in by some reasonable deadline, selecting, editing, finding a publisher -- lots of work, but seems well worth doing. Let's talk about all of these in Madison. To answer Meredith's question -- I think we should have a fairly good chunk of time (at least an hour??? perhaps at the end of an afternoon so it could run as long as needed?) Will there be a separate chance to talk about Bob's life and what he meant to us all, or are you picturing rolling a memorial together with talking about publication plans? Sorry to go on at such length -- the thread seems to be getting a bit fragmented and I'm hoping to gather it back together. Catherine >>> Marianne Mithun 04/12/14 11:22 AM >>> I completely agree with David. There is so much there, and when I've asked Bob about various things, he's come up with handouts from 25 years earlier, and papers from decades before or recently, all of them so valuable. A tricky call of course. How many of us would like our unfinished work out there. But so much of Bob's work was really finished. Marianne --On Saturday, April 12, 2014 7:34 AM -0600 ROOD DAVID S wrote: > Dave, if Carolyn is willing, I think it would be much better to try to > arrange for a book or a series of journal publications (e.g. a special > issue of IJAL) rather than an archive. Things get buried in archives. > However, I know that a lot of what Bob circulated to us was stuff he > considered unfinished. The extent to which anyone else would consider > that work publishable needs to be discussed with Carolyn. > > Best, > David > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > On Fri, 11 Apr 2014, David Kaufman wrote: > >> I don't know if Bob expressed such an interest, at least not to me, and >> possibly not to Carolyn either (she didn't mention it). I'd have to look >> into how we would go about submitting papers to these organizations for >> their archives. Any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated. >> >> Dave >> >> David Kaufman >> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 1:26 PM, David Costa >> wrote: >> >>> Did Bob ever express a preference as to where his papers should end up? >>> I would assume either the NAA or the APS would be best... >>> >>> Dave Costa >>> >>> >>> Hi David and all, >>> >>> Sorry to hear David that you won't be able to make it to the SCLC this >>> year. >>> >>> I know we have talked about doing a Festschrift in Bob's honor, and this >>> is certainly something we can discuss at the meeting. Hopefully our >>> organizers can set aside some time on the schedule so we can all >>> participate in this discussion. >>> >>> As for the CSD, I think it's a great idea to have it finalized and >>> published in some form, either electronically or in print, or both. >>> >>> As concerns Bob's unpublished papers and computer files, Carolyn, Bob's >>> wife, and I have been in touch fairly regularly. Even before Bob's >>> death, she said that she and Bob had discussed it and thought it would >>> be best that I come up to their house and "clean out" his garage full >>> of files, books, etc. Also, I plan to take a USB drive and download as >>> much of his computer files as possible, at least some of which I know >>> pertain to Kaw. I'll be happy to distribute whatever I find pertaining >>> to other Siouan languages to those of you who want it. I'm hoping to >>> go up and do this in the next couple of months, possibly in early June >>> or so before it gets too hot. I know Carolyn is thinking about selling >>> the house and moving up to be with family in Wisconsin, so this >>> cleaning out will have to be done fairly soon anyway. >>> >>> Anyway, I'll keep everyone posted as plans for these things become more >>> concrete. Things are a bit crazy for me right now as I work full-time >>> for the Kaw Nation and try to finish my dissertation without yet having >>> another committee member to substitute for Bob. I hope to defend in >>> May, but I'm still awaiting final word on a new committee member and >>> date from my advisor. >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> David Kaufman >>> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >>> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 12:27 PM, ROOD DAVID S >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi, everyone, >>>> My family schedule for at least part of the summer has finally >>>> settled down, and I regret that it precludes me from attending the SCLC >>>> again this year. The earliest I could get to Madison would be >>>> mid-afternoon on Saturday, hardly the appropriate time for >>>> participating in the meeting. >>>> >>>> I am very much interested in what is decided about honoring Bob >>>> Rankin, however, and in what might be done to make his huge >>>> contribution to the history of Siouan and the structure of Dhegiah >>>> part of a permanent record. I know he has many papers that have never >>>> been published, as well as many that are published here and there in >>>> places we don't always know about. As early as 1984, at the workshop >>>> that launched the Comparative Dictionary project, I proposed a >>>> "collection of papers" volume that would be a place for his work (and >>>> others), but that has never materialized. Moreover, for the last few >>>> years Bob was the major player in the evolution of the >>>> Comparative Dictionary. As most of you know, Iren Hartmann at the >>>> MPI-Leipzig is working on creating a usable digital verson of the CSD. >>>> Of the original 5 participants (John Koontz, Wes Jones, Dick Carter, >>>> Rankin and me) in the project, I guess I'm the only one who is still >>>> interested and available, so I'm going to work with Iren to see if >>>> that can't be finalized and formalized. There is quite a bit of >>>> urgency here, because as many of you know, the structure of the MPI in >>>> Leipzig will change dramatically in May of 2015, and they will likely >>>> no longer be interested in supporting Iren's work. >>>> >>>> If any of you have any thoughts on how best to move forward >>>> with either Bob's legacy or the CSD, please discuss them at >>>> the meeting and keep me informed. I don't feel like I know Carolyn >>>> well enough to approach her about any of this; perhaps one of you >>>> would be willing to help with that. >>>> >>>> Best wishes to all for a fruitful and fun meeting. >>>> >>>> David >>>> >>>> David S. Rood >>>> Dept. of Linguistics >>>> Univ. of Colorado >>>> 295 UCB >>>> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >>>> USA >>>> rood at colorado.edu >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From carudin1 at WSC.EDU Sat Apr 12 18:22:11 2014 From: carudin1 at WSC.EDU (Catherine Rudin) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 13:22:11 -0500 Subject: regrets and thoughts Message-ID: Oh, and of course #(4) -- the Comparative Siouan Dictionary! >>> Catherine Rudin 04/12/14 1:20 PM >>> So, it looks to me like we're talking about at least two different things, maybe three, all of which I would like to see done. (1) A collection of Bob's papers, to be published as a book and/or perhaps a journal special issue. The Siouan archive collection would be a good start on gathering these papers, though there might be others that he never sent in. These would be work that was finished (or close to it) but either not published or published in out-of-the-way places. Someone would need to select which works to include, edit them (as has been pointed out, some may not be quite ready for public consumption), and of course find a publisher. Volunteers? (2) A different collection of less-polished or fragmentary material, to be given to some appropriate archive. I imagine a lot of what Dave K will find in the "garage full of files" will be notes, correspondence, class handouts ... the kind of things that don't belong in a book or journal but that might well be of great interest to future researchers. Yes, things do get buried in archives, as someone said, but at least they are there for some future person to dig up. Bob once sent me a bunch of his old class handouts on comparative Romance; nothing publishable, but invaluable in putting together my own Romance linguistics course. I bet there's lots of similar stuff on Siouan in that garage. Someone (Dave K?) would need to contact an archive & do some sorting... (3) A festschrift in Bob's honor. This would presumably be a selection of papers on Siouan languages by some of us, though it might include a paper or two of Bob's too. There was a suggestion earlier that it could serve as a venue for some of the papers from the abandoned Comparative Siouan Syntax project. This one would take a fair amount of cat-herding, getting people to send papers in by some reasonable deadline, selecting, editing, finding a publisher -- lots of work, but seems well worth doing. Let's talk about all of these in Madison. To answer Meredith's question -- I think we should have a fairly good chunk of time (at least an hour??? perhaps at the end of an afternoon so it could run as long as needed?) Will there be a separate chance to talk about Bob's life and what he meant to us all, or are you picturing rolling a memorial together with talking about publication plans? Sorry to go on at such length -- the thread seems to be getting a bit fragmented and I'm hoping to gather it back together. Catherine >>> Marianne Mithun 04/12/14 11:22 AM >>> I completely agree with David. There is so much there, and when I've asked Bob about various things, he's come up with handouts from 25 years earlier, and papers from decades before or recently, all of them so valuable. A tricky call of course. How many of us would like our unfinished work out there. But so much of Bob's work was really finished. Marianne --On Saturday, April 12, 2014 7:34 AM -0600 ROOD DAVID S wrote: > Dave, if Carolyn is willing, I think it would be much better to try to > arrange for a book or a series of journal publications (e.g. a special > issue of IJAL) rather than an archive. Things get buried in archives. > However, I know that a lot of what Bob circulated to us was stuff he > considered unfinished. The extent to which anyone else would consider > that work publishable needs to be discussed with Carolyn. > > Best, > David > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > On Fri, 11 Apr 2014, David Kaufman wrote: > >> I don't know if Bob expressed such an interest, at least not to me, and >> possibly not to Carolyn either (she didn't mention it). I'd have to look >> into how we would go about submitting papers to these organizations for >> their archives. Any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated. >> >> Dave >> >> David Kaufman >> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 1:26 PM, David Costa >> wrote: >> >>> Did Bob ever express a preference as to where his papers should end up? >>> I would assume either the NAA or the APS would be best... >>> >>> Dave Costa >>> >>> >>> Hi David and all, >>> >>> Sorry to hear David that you won't be able to make it to the SCLC this >>> year. >>> >>> I know we have talked about doing a Festschrift in Bob's honor, and this >>> is certainly something we can discuss at the meeting. Hopefully our >>> organizers can set aside some time on the schedule so we can all >>> participate in this discussion. >>> >>> As for the CSD, I think it's a great idea to have it finalized and >>> published in some form, either electronically or in print, or both. >>> >>> As concerns Bob's unpublished papers and computer files, Carolyn, Bob's >>> wife, and I have been in touch fairly regularly. Even before Bob's >>> death, she said that she and Bob had discussed it and thought it would >>> be best that I come up to their house and "clean out" his garage full >>> of files, books, etc. Also, I plan to take a USB drive and download as >>> much of his computer files as possible, at least some of which I know >>> pertain to Kaw. I'll be happy to distribute whatever I find pertaining >>> to other Siouan languages to those of you who want it. I'm hoping to >>> go up and do this in the next couple of months, possibly in early June >>> or so before it gets too hot. I know Carolyn is thinking about selling >>> the house and moving up to be with family in Wisconsin, so this >>> cleaning out will have to be done fairly soon anyway. >>> >>> Anyway, I'll keep everyone posted as plans for these things become more >>> concrete. Things are a bit crazy for me right now as I work full-time >>> for the Kaw Nation and try to finish my dissertation without yet having >>> another committee member to substitute for Bob. I hope to defend in >>> May, but I'm still awaiting final word on a new committee member and >>> date from my advisor. >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> David Kaufman >>> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >>> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 12:27 PM, ROOD DAVID S >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi, everyone, >>>> My family schedule for at least part of the summer has finally >>>> settled down, and I regret that it precludes me from attending the SCLC >>>> again this year. The earliest I could get to Madison would be >>>> mid-afternoon on Saturday, hardly the appropriate time for >>>> participating in the meeting. >>>> >>>> I am very much interested in what is decided about honoring Bob >>>> Rankin, however, and in what might be done to make his huge >>>> contribution to the history of Siouan and the structure of Dhegiah >>>> part of a permanent record. I know he has many papers that have never >>>> been published, as well as many that are published here and there in >>>> places we don't always know about. As early as 1984, at the workshop >>>> that launched the Comparative Dictionary project, I proposed a >>>> "collection of papers" volume that would be a place for his work (and >>>> others), but that has never materialized. Moreover, for the last few >>>> years Bob was the major player in the evolution of the >>>> Comparative Dictionary. As most of you know, Iren Hartmann at the >>>> MPI-Leipzig is working on creating a usable digital verson of the CSD. >>>> Of the original 5 participants (John Koontz, Wes Jones, Dick Carter, >>>> Rankin and me) in the project, I guess I'm the only one who is still >>>> interested and available, so I'm going to work with Iren to see if >>>> that can't be finalized and formalized. There is quite a bit of >>>> urgency here, because as many of you know, the structure of the MPI in >>>> Leipzig will change dramatically in May of 2015, and they will likely >>>> no longer be interested in supporting Iren's work. >>>> >>>> If any of you have any thoughts on how best to move forward >>>> with either Bob's legacy or the CSD, please discuss them at >>>> the meeting and keep me informed. I don't feel like I know Carolyn >>>> well enough to approach her about any of this; perhaps one of you >>>> would be willing to help with that. >>>> >>>> Best wishes to all for a fruitful and fun meeting. >>>> >>>> David >>>> >>>> David S. Rood >>>> Dept. of Linguistics >>>> Univ. of Colorado >>>> 295 UCB >>>> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >>>> USA >>>> rood at colorado.edu >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Sat Apr 12 19:01:50 2014 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 14:01:50 -0500 Subject: regrets and thoughts In-Reply-To: <53493D290200008E000B1E4E@hermes.wsc.edu> Message-ID: Just to follow up here, we are also working on trying to get Bob's remains (ashes) transported from Kansas City to Oklahoma for interment at the Washunga Cemetery (the Kaw Nation cemetery). I have been involved in Kaw Nation Cultural Committee meetings to try and get all these things taken care of, and have been in touch with Carolyn on an ongoing basis. There will be a memorial service here for him once the date is established for the interment. We have another meeting on Monday in which I hope the final interment date will be set, hopefully for within the next couple of weeks. (Carolyn herself does not plan to attend as it's a fairly long drive and she's still in the midst of taking care of financial and other arrangements since Bob's death.) I'm afraid that, due to all of these other pressing issues, including trying to get my own PhD completed and dealing with the transport and final interment of Bob's remains, I haven't got far enough yet in my planning to figure out what to do with all Bob's academic material from Lawrence, especially physical papers and files, once I get them. Storing some of this at KU or even at the Kaw Nation might be an option, but I agree that there needs to be an organized way to go through this and get it disseminated to all of us who are interested, as well as being archived somewhere accessible to the public - perhaps even the Smithsonian? I will have to do some homework around all this, but not until I've dealt with these other pressing topics first. Perhaps by the time I see everyone in Wisconsin I'll have a better idea of what to do and how to do it. I appreciate the offers of help and will let you know once I have a better handle on it all. Thanks! Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program On Sat, Apr 12, 2014 at 1:18 PM, Catherine Rudin wrote: > So, it looks to me like we're talking about at least two different things, > maybe three, all of which I would like to see done. > > (1) A collection of Bob's papers, to be published as a book and/or perhaps > a journal special issue. The Siouan archive collection would be a good > start on gathering these papers, though there might be others that he never > sent in. These would be work that was finished (or close to it) but either > not published or published in out-of-the-way places. Someone would need to > select which works to include, edit them (as has been pointed out, some may > not be quite ready for public consumption), and of course find a > publisher. Volunteers? > > (2) A different collection of less-polished or fragmentary material, to be > given to some appropriate archive. I imagine a lot of what Dave K will > find in the "garage full of files" will be notes, correspondence, class > handouts ... the kind of things that don't belong in a book or journal but > that might well be of great interest to future researchers. Yes, things do > get buried in archives, as someone said, but at least they are there for > some future person to dig up. Bob once sent me a bunch of his old class > handouts on comparative Romance; nothing publishable, but invaluable in > putting together my own Romance linguistics course. I bet there's lots of > similar stuff on Siouan in that garage. Someone (Dave K?) would need to > contact an archive & do some sorting... > > (3) A festschrift in Bob's honor. This would presumably be a selection of > papers on Siouan languages by some of us, though it might include a paper > or two of Bob's too. There was a suggestion earlier that it could serve as > a venue for some of the papers from the abandoned Comparative Siouan Syntax > project. This one would take a fair amount of cat-herding, getting people > to send papers in by some reasonable deadline, selecting, editing, finding > a publisher -- lots of work, but seems well worth doing. > > Let's talk about all of these in Madison. To answer Meredith's question > -- I think we should have a fairly good chunk of time (at least an hour??? > perhaps at the end of an afternoon so it could run as long as needed?) Will > there be a separate chance to talk about Bob's life and what he meant to us > all, or are you picturing rolling a memorial together with talking about > publication plans? > > Sorry to go on at such length -- the thread seems to be getting a bit > fragmented and I'm hoping to gather it back together. > Catherine > > >>> Marianne Mithun 04/12/14 11:22 AM >>> > I completely agree with David. There is so much there, and when I've asked > Bob about various things, he's come up with handouts from 25 years > earlier, > and papers from decades before or recently, all of them so valuable. A > tricky call of course. How many of us would like our unfinished work out > there. But so much of Bob's work was really finished. > > Marianne > > --On Saturday, April 12, 2014 7:34 AM -0600 ROOD DAVID S > wrote: > > > Dave, if Carolyn is willing, I think it would be much better to try to > > arrange for a book or a series of journal publications (e.g. a special > > issue of IJAL) rather than an archive. Things get buried in archives. > > However, I know that a lot of what Bob circulated to us was stuff he > > considered unfinished. The extent to which anyone else would consider > > that work publishable needs to be discussed with Carolyn. > > > > Best, > > David > > > > David S. Rood > > Dept. of Linguistics > > Univ. of Colorado > > 295 UCB > > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > > USA > > rood at colorado.edu > > > > On Fri, 11 Apr 2014, David Kaufman wrote: > > > >> I don't know if Bob expressed such an interest, at least not to me, and > >> possibly not to Carolyn either (she didn't mention it). I'd have to look > >> into how we would go about submitting papers to these organizations for > >> their archives. Any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated. > >> > >> Dave > >> > >> David Kaufman > >> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > >> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > >> > >> > >> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 1:26 PM, David Costa > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Did Bob ever express a preference as to where his papers should end up? > >>> I would assume either the NAA or the APS would be best... > >>> > >>> Dave Costa > >>> > >>> > >>> Hi David and all, > >>> > >>> Sorry to hear David that you won't be able to make it to the SCLC this > >>> year. > >>> > >>> I know we have talked about doing a Festschrift in Bob's honor, and > this > >>> is certainly something we can discuss at the meeting. Hopefully our > >>> organizers can set aside some time on the schedule so we can all > >>> participate in this discussion. > >>> > >>> As for the CSD, I think it's a great idea to have it finalized and > >>> published in some form, either electronically or in print, or both. > >>> > >>> As concerns Bob's unpublished papers and computer files, Carolyn, Bob's > >>> wife, and I have been in touch fairly regularly. Even before Bob's > >>> death, she said that she and Bob had discussed it and thought it would > >>> be best that I come up to their house and "clean out" his garage full > >>> of files, books, etc. Also, I plan to take a USB drive and download as > >>> much of his computer files as possible, at least some of which I know > >>> pertain to Kaw. I'll be happy to distribute whatever I find pertaining > >>> to other Siouan languages to those of you who want it. I'm hoping to > >>> go up and do this in the next couple of months, possibly in early June > >>> or so before it gets too hot. I know Carolyn is thinking about selling > >>> the house and moving up to be with family in Wisconsin, so this > >>> cleaning out will have to be done fairly soon anyway. > >>> > >>> Anyway, I'll keep everyone posted as plans for these things become more > >>> concrete. Things are a bit crazy for me right now as I work full-time > >>> for the Kaw Nation and try to finish my dissertation without yet having > >>> another committee member to substitute for Bob. I hope to defend in > >>> May, but I'm still awaiting final word on a new committee member and > >>> date from my advisor. > >>> > >>> Dave > >>> > >>> David Kaufman > >>> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > >>> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > >>> > >>> > >>> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 12:27 PM, ROOD DAVID S > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Hi, everyone, > >>>> My family schedule for at least part of the summer has finally > >>>> settled down, and I regret that it precludes me from attending the > SCLC > >>>> again this year. The earliest I could get to Madison would be > >>>> mid-afternoon on Saturday, hardly the appropriate time for > >>>> participating in the meeting. > >>>> > >>>> I am very much interested in what is decided about honoring Bob > >>>> Rankin, however, and in what might be done to make his huge > >>>> contribution to the history of Siouan and the structure of Dhegiah > >>>> part of a permanent record. I know he has many papers that have never > >>>> been published, as well as many that are published here and there in > >>>> places we don't always know about. As early as 1984, at the workshop > >>>> that launched the Comparative Dictionary project, I proposed a > >>>> "collection of papers" volume that would be a place for his work (and > >>>> others), but that has never materialized. Moreover, for the last few > >>>> years Bob was the major player in the evolution of the > >>>> Comparative Dictionary. As most of you know, Iren Hartmann at the > >>>> MPI-Leipzig is working on creating a usable digital verson of the CSD. > >>>> Of the original 5 participants (John Koontz, Wes Jones, Dick Carter, > >>>> Rankin and me) in the project, I guess I'm the only one who is still > >>>> interested and available, so I'm going to work with Iren to see if > >>>> that can't be finalized and formalized. There is quite a bit of > >>>> urgency here, because as many of you know, the structure of the MPI in > >>>> Leipzig will change dramatically in May of 2015, and they will likely > >>>> no longer be interested in supporting Iren's work. > >>>> > >>>> If any of you have any thoughts on how best to move forward > >>>> with either Bob's legacy or the CSD, please discuss them at > >>>> the meeting and keep me informed. I don't feel like I know Carolyn > >>>> well enough to approach her about any of this; perhaps one of you > >>>> would be willing to help with that. > >>>> > >>>> Best wishes to all for a fruitful and fun meeting. > >>>> > >>>> David > >>>> > >>>> David S. Rood > >>>> Dept. of Linguistics > >>>> Univ. of Colorado > >>>> 295 UCB > >>>> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > >>>> USA > >>>> rood at colorado.edu > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mer.anne.johnson at GMAIL.COM Sat Apr 12 19:07:55 2014 From: mer.anne.johnson at GMAIL.COM (Meredith Johnson) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 14:07:55 -0500 Subject: regrets and thoughts In-Reply-To: <53493E030200008E000B1E53@hermes.wsc.edu> Message-ID: Hi all, Thanks for the clarification, Catherine! We can certainly do a memorial in addition to a discussion of the Festschrift. We'll schedule an hour at the end of one day for the Festschrift, and allow time for it to go over. As for the memorial, we were planning an informal gathering on the union terrace overlooking Lake Mendota after the talks on the first day. Would people want to take that as an opportunity to remember Dr. Rankin? Or we could easily add in some other time for that too. Thanks! Meredith Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 12, 2014, at 1:22 PM, Catherine Rudin wrote: > > Oh, and of course #(4) -- the Comparative Siouan Dictionary! > > >>> Catherine Rudin 04/12/14 1:20 PM >>> > So, it looks to me like we're talking about at least two different things, maybe three, all of which I would like to see done. > > (1) A collection of Bob's papers, to be published as a book and/or perhaps a journal special issue. The Siouan archive collection would be a good start on gathering these papers, though there might be others that he never sent in. These would be work that was finished (or close to it) but either not published or published in out-of-the-way places. Someone would need to select which works to include, edit them (as has been pointed out, some may not be quite ready for public consumption), and of course find a publisher. Volunteers? > > (2) A different collection of less-polished or fragmentary material, to be given to some appropriate archive. I imagine a lot of what Dave K will find in the "garage full of files" will be notes, correspondence, class handouts ... the kind of things that don't belong in a book or journal but that might well be of great interest to future researchers. Yes, things do get buried in archives, as someone said, but at least they are there for some future person to dig up. Bob once sent me a bunch of his old class handouts on comparative Romance; nothing publishable, but invaluable in putting together my own Romance linguistics course. I bet there's lots of similar stuff on Siouan in that garage. Someone (Dave K?) would need to contact an archive & do some sorting... > > (3) A festschrift in Bob's honor. This would presumably be a selection of papers on Siouan languages by some of us, though it might include a paper or two of Bob's too. There was a suggestion earlier that it could serve as a venue for some of the papers from the abandoned Comparative Siouan Syntax project. This one would take a fair amount of cat-herding, getting people to send papers in by some reasonable deadline, selecting, editing, finding a publisher -- lots of work, but seems well worth doing. > > Let's talk about all of these in Madison. To answer Meredith's question -- I think we should have a fairly good chunk of time (at least an hour??? perhaps at the end of an afternoon so it could run as long as needed?) Will there be a separate chance to talk about Bob's life and what he meant to us all, or are you picturing rolling a memorial together with talking about publication plans? > > Sorry to go on at such length -- the thread seems to be getting a bit fragmented and I'm hoping to gather it back together. > Catherine > > >>> Marianne Mithun 04/12/14 11:22 AM >>> > I completely agree with David. There is so much there, and when I've asked > Bob about various things, he's come up with handouts from 25 years earlier, > and papers from decades before or recently, all of them so valuable. A > tricky call of course. How many of us would like our unfinished work out > there. But so much of Bob's work was really finished. > > Marianne > > --On Saturday, April 12, 2014 7:34 AM -0600 ROOD DAVID S > wrote: > > > Dave, if Carolyn is willing, I think it would be much better to try to > > arrange for a book or a series of journal publications (e.g. a special > > issue of IJAL) rather than an archive. Things get buried in archives. > > However, I know that a lot of what Bob circulated to us was stuff he > > considered unfinished. The extent to which anyone else would consider > > that work publishable needs to be discussed with Carolyn. > > > > Best, > > David > > > > David S. Rood > > Dept. of Linguistics > > Univ. of Colorado > > 295 UCB > > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > > USA > > rood at colorado.edu > > > > On Fri, 11 Apr 2014, David Kaufman wrote: > > > >> I don't know if Bob expressed such an interest, at least not to me, and > >> possibly not to Carolyn either (she didn't mention it). I'd have to look > >> into how we would go about submitting papers to these organizations for > >> their archives. Any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated. > >> > >> Dave > >> > >> David Kaufman > >> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > >> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > >> > >> > >> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 1:26 PM, David Costa > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Did Bob ever express a preference as to where his papers should end up? > >>> I would assume either the NAA or the APS would be best... > >>> > >>> Dave Costa > >>> > >>> > >>> Hi David and all, > >>> > >>> Sorry to hear David that you won't be able to make it to the SCLC this > >>> year. > >>> > >>> I know we have talked about doing a Festschrift in Bob's honor, and this > >>> is certainly something we can discuss at the meeting. Hopefully our > >>> organizers can set aside some time on the schedule so we can all > >>> participate in this discussion. > >>> > >>> As for the CSD, I think it's a great idea to have it finalized and > >>> published in some form, either electronically or in print, or both. > >>> > >>> As concerns Bob's unpublished papers and computer files, Carolyn, Bob's > >>> wife, and I have been in touch fairly regularly. Even before Bob's > >>> death, she said that she and Bob had discussed it and thought it would > >>> be best that I come up to their house and "clean out" his garage full > >>> of files, books, etc. Also, I plan to take a USB drive and download as > >>> much of his computer files as possible, at least some of which I know > >>> pertain to Kaw. I'll be happy to distribute whatever I find pertaining > >>> to other Siouan languages to those of you who want it. I'm hoping to > >>> go up and do this in the next couple of months, possibly in early June > >>> or so before it gets too hot. I know Carolyn is thinking about selling > >>> the house and moving up to be with family in Wisconsin, so this > >>> cleaning out will have to be done fairly soon anyway. > >>> > >>> Anyway, I'll keep everyone posted as plans for these things become more > >>> concrete. Things are a bit crazy for me right now as I work full-time > >>> for the Kaw Nation and try to finish my dissertation without yet having > >>> another committee member to substitute for Bob. I hope to defend in > >>> May, but I'm still awaiting final word on a new committee member and > >>> date from my advisor. > >>> > >>> Dave > >>> > >>> David Kaufman > >>> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > >>> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > >>> > >>> > >>> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 12:27 PM, ROOD DAVID S > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Hi, everyone, > >>>> My family schedule for at least part of the summer has finally > >>>> settled down, and I regret that it precludes me from attending the SCLC > >>>> again this year. The earliest I could get to Madison would be > >>>> mid-afternoon on Saturday, hardly the appropriate time for > >>>> participating in the meeting. > >>>> > >>>> I am very much interested in what is decided about honoring Bob > >>>> Rankin, however, and in what might be done to make his huge > >>>> contribution to the history of Siouan and the structure of Dhegiah > >>>> part of a permanent record. I know he has many papers that have never > >>>> been published, as well as many that are published here and there in > >>>> places we don't always know about. As early as 1984, at the workshop > >>>> that launched the Comparative Dictionary project, I proposed a > >>>> "collection of papers" volume that would be a place for his work (and > >>>> others), but that has never materialized. Moreover, for the last few > >>>> years Bob was the major player in the evolution of the > >>>> Comparative Dictionary. As most of you know, Iren Hartmann at the > >>>> MPI-Leipzig is working on creating a usable digital verson of the CSD. > >>>> Of the original 5 participants (John Koontz, Wes Jones, Dick Carter, > >>>> Rankin and me) in the project, I guess I'm the only one who is still > >>>> interested and available, so I'm going to work with Iren to see if > >>>> that can't be finalized and formalized. There is quite a bit of > >>>> urgency here, because as many of you know, the structure of the MPI in > >>>> Leipzig will change dramatically in May of 2015, and they will likely > >>>> no longer be interested in supporting Iren's work. > >>>> > >>>> If any of you have any thoughts on how best to move forward > >>>> with either Bob's legacy or the CSD, please discuss them at > >>>> the meeting and keep me informed. I don't feel like I know Carolyn > >>>> well enough to approach her about any of this; perhaps one of you > >>>> would be willing to help with that. > >>>> > >>>> Best wishes to all for a fruitful and fun meeting. > >>>> > >>>> David > >>>> > >>>> David S. Rood > >>>> Dept. of Linguistics > >>>> Univ. of Colorado > >>>> 295 UCB > >>>> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > >>>> USA > >>>> rood at colorado.edu > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> From sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Sat Apr 12 21:38:29 2014 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM (Sky Campbell) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 16:38:29 -0500 Subject: Alice translation In-Reply-To: <002b01cf5652$bb498ba0$31dca2e0$@org> Message-ID: My wife and I were out this morning when the idea of "mysterious/sacred" came to mind and we discussed it for a bit. I like this approach if the idea of "curious" is "weird/strange" rather than "I want to know." What I am lacking here is the cultural distinction (if any) between mysterious, sacred, medicine, etc. in these languages. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jan Ullrich Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2014 8:26 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Alice translation >> Alice was a Victorian-age English girl. When she fell down the rabbit hole and sampled the mushrooms, she said: ?Curiouser and curiouser.? A modern day American girl might communicate the same message with the formula: ?Well, this is really getting weird.? Here, the same substantive message can be communicated at least two different ways in the same language without using any of the same words or grammatical devices. >>> In the mouths of fluent speakers, Siouan languages most likely had ways of expressing this same message. It is not culturally specific; anybody, anywhere, might have occasion to utter it. Lexically, we might want to check to see if we have one or more words meaning ?curious?, in the sense of ?strange?, ?odd?, ?weird?, or ?contrary to expectations?. If not, some word in the language probably got overlooked, and if we still have speakers we should search for it. Rorry, I think that in the context you described the expression is to a high degree synonymous with the words ?mysterious? and perhaps ?magical?. So one of the possible free translations of the sentence into Lakota is this: ?S??m wakh?? ?ye? (more / mysterious / it is becoming gradually or changing cumulatively). Jan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From CaRudin1 at WSC.EDU Sat Apr 12 21:45:52 2014 From: CaRudin1 at WSC.EDU (Catherine Rudin) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 16:45:52 -0500 Subject: regrets and thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dave -- WRITE YOUR DISSERTATION!!!!! :-) >>> David Kaufman 4/12/2014 2:01 PM >>> Just to follow up here, we are also working on trying to get Bob's remains (ashes) transported from Kansas City to Oklahoma for interment at the Washunga Cemetery (the Kaw Nation cemetery). I have been involved in Kaw Nation Cultural Committee meetings to try and get all these things taken care of, and have been in touch with Carolyn on an ongoing basis. There will be a memorial service here for him once the date is established for the interment. We have another meeting on Monday in which I hope the final interment date will be set, hopefully for within the next couple of weeks. (Carolyn herself does not plan to attend as it's a fairly long drive and she's still in the midst of taking care of financial and other arrangements since Bob's death.) I'm afraid that, due to all of these other pressing issues, including trying to get my own PhD completed and dealing with the transport and final interment of Bob's remains, I haven't got far enough yet in my planning to figure out what to do with all Bob's academic material from Lawrence, especially physical papers and files, once I get them. Storing some of this at KU or even at the Kaw Nation might be an option, but I agree that there needs to be an organized way to go through this and get it disseminated to all of us who are interested, as well as being archived somewhere accessible to the public - perhaps even the Smithsonian? I will have to do some homework around all this, but not until I've dealt with these other pressing topics first. Perhaps by the time I see everyone in Wisconsin I'll have a better idea of what to do and how to do it. I appreciate the offers of help and will let you know once I have a better handle on it all. Thanks! Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program On Sat, Apr 12, 2014 at 1:18 PM, Catherine Rudin wrote: So, it looks to me like we're talking about at least two different things, maybe three, all of which I would like to see done. (1) A collection of Bob's papers, to be published as a book and/or perhaps a journal special issue. The Siouan archive collection would be a good start on gathering these papers, though there might be others that he never sent in. These would be work that was finished (or close to it) but either not published or published in out-of-the-way places. Someone would need to select which works to include, edit them (as has been pointed out, some may not be quite ready for public consumption), and of course find a publisher. Volunteers? (2) A different collection of less-polished or fragmentary material, to be given to some appropriate archive. I imagine a lot of what Dave K will find in the "garage full of files" will be notes, correspondence, class handouts ... the kind of things that don't belong in a book or journal but that might well be of great interest to future researchers. Yes, things do get buried in archives, as someone said, but at least they are there for some future person to dig up. Bob once sent me a bunch of his old class handouts on comparative Romance; nothing publishable, but invaluable in putting together my own Romance linguistics course. I bet there's lots of similar stuff on Siouan in that garage. Someone (Dave K?) would need to contact an archive & do some sorting... (3) A festschrift in Bob's honor. This would presumably be a selection of papers on Siouan languages by some of us, though it might include a paper or two of Bob's too. There was a suggestion earlier that it could serve as a venue for some of the papers from the abandoned Comparative Siouan Syntax project. This one would take a fair amount of cat-herding, getting people to send papers in by some reasonable deadline, selecting, editing, finding a publisher -- lots of work, but seems well worth doing. Let's talk about all of these in Madison. To answer Meredith's question -- I think we should have a fairly good chunk of time (at least an hour??? perhaps at the end of an afternoon so it could run as long as needed?) Will there be a separate chance to talk about Bob's life and what he meant to us all, or are you picturing rolling a memorial together with talking about publication plans? Sorry to go on at such length -- the thread seems to be getting a bit fragmented and I'm hoping to gather it back together. Catherine >>> Marianne Mithun 04/12/14 11:22 AM >>> I completely agree with David. There is so much there, and when I've asked Bob about various things, he's come up with handouts from 25 years earlier, and papers from decades before or recently, all of them so valuable. A tricky call of course. How many of us would like our unfinished work out there. But so much of Bob's work was really finished. Marianne --On Saturday, April 12, 2014 7:34 AM -0600 ROOD DAVID S wrote: > Dave, if Carolyn is willing, I think it would be much better to try to > arrange for a book or a series of journal publications (e.g. a special > issue of IJAL) rather than an archive. Things get buried in archives. > However, I know that a lot of what Bob circulated to us was stuff he > considered unfinished. The extent to which anyone else would consider > that work publishable needs to be discussed with Carolyn. > > Best, > David > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > On Fri, 11 Apr 2014, David Kaufman wrote: > >> I don't know if Bob expressed such an interest, at least not to me, and >> possibly not to Carolyn either (she didn't mention it). I'd have to look >> into how we would go about submitting papers to these organizations for >> their archives. Any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated. >> >> Dave >> >> David Kaufman >> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 1:26 PM, David Costa >> wrote: >> >>> Did Bob ever express a preference as to where his papers should end up? >>> I would assume either the NAA or the APS would be best... >>> >>> Dave Costa >>> >>> >>> Hi David and all, >>> >>> Sorry to hear David that you won't be able to make it to the SCLC this >>> year. >>> >>> I know we have talked about doing a Festschrift in Bob's honor, and this >>> is certainly something we can discuss at the meeting. Hopefully our >>> organizers can set aside some time on the schedule so we can all >>> participate in this discussion. >>> >>> As for the CSD, I think it's a great idea to have it finalized and >>> published in some form, either electronically or in print, or both. >>> >>> As concerns Bob's unpublished papers and computer files, Carolyn, Bob's >>> wife, and I have been in touch fairly regularly. Even before Bob's >>> death, she said that she and Bob had discussed it and thought it would >>> be best that I come up to their house and "clean out" his garage full >>> of files, books, etc. Also, I plan to take a USB drive and download as >>> much of his computer files as possible, at least some of which I know >>> pertain to Kaw. I'll be happy to distribute whatever I find pertaining >>> to other Siouan languages to those of you who want it. I'm hoping to >>> go up and do this in the next couple of months, possibly in early June >>> or so before it gets too hot. I know Carolyn is thinking about selling >>> the house and moving up to be with family in Wisconsin, so this >>> cleaning out will have to be done fairly soon anyway. >>> >>> Anyway, I'll keep everyone posted as plans for these things become more >>> concrete. Things are a bit crazy for me right now as I work full-time >>> for the Kaw Nation and try to finish my dissertation without yet having >>> another committee member to substitute for Bob. I hope to defend in >>> May, but I'm still awaiting final word on a new committee member and >>> date from my advisor. >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> David Kaufman >>> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >>> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 12:27 PM, ROOD DAVID S >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi, everyone, >>>> My family schedule for at least part of the summer has finally >>>> settled down, and I regret that it precludes me from attending the SCLC >>>> again this year. The earliest I could get to Madison would be >>>> mid-afternoon on Saturday, hardly the appropriate time for >>>> participating in the meeting. >>>> >>>> I am very much interested in what is decided about honoring Bob >>>> Rankin, however, and in what might be done to make his huge >>>> contribution to the history of Siouan and the structure of Dhegiah >>>> part of a permanent record. I know he has many papers that have never >>>> been published, as well as many that are published here and there in >>>> places we don't always know about. As early as 1984, at the workshop >>>> that launched the Comparative Dictionary project, I proposed a >>>> "collection of papers" volume that would be a place for his work (and >>>> others), but that has never materialized. Moreover, for the last few >>>> years Bob was the major player in the evolution of the >>>> Comparative Dictionary. As most of you know, Iren Hartmann at the >>>> MPI-Leipzig is working on creating a usable digital verson of the CSD. >>>> Of the original 5 participants (John Koontz, Wes Jones, Dick Carter, >>>> Rankin and me) in the project, I guess I'm the only one who is still >>>> interested and available, so I'm going to work with Iren to see if >>>> that can't be finalized and formalized. There is quite a bit of >>>> urgency here, because as many of you know, the structure of the MPI in >>>> Leipzig will change dramatically in May of 2015, and they will likely >>>> no longer be interested in supporting Iren's work. >>>> >>>> If any of you have any thoughts on how best to move forward >>>> with either Bob's legacy or the CSD, please discuss them at >>>> the meeting and keep me informed. I don't feel like I know Carolyn >>>> well enough to approach her about any of this; perhaps one of you >>>> would be willing to help with that. >>>> >>>> Best wishes to all for a fruitful and fun meeting. >>>> >>>> David >>>> >>>> David S. Rood >>>> Dept. of Linguistics >>>> Univ. of Colorado >>>> 295 UCB >>>> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >>>> USA >>>> rood at colorado.edu >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Sun Apr 13 00:53:33 2014 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 19:53:33 -0500 Subject: regrets and thoughts In-Reply-To: <53496DC00200008E000B1E86@hermes.wsc.edu> Message-ID: Catherine, My dissertation is essentially written. It's getting a new committee member and defense date that seem to be the major hang-ups. Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program On Sat, Apr 12, 2014 at 4:45 PM, Catherine Rudin wrote: > Dave -- WRITE YOUR DISSERTATION!!!!! :-) > > >>> David Kaufman 4/12/2014 2:01 PM >>> > Just to follow up here, we are also working on trying to get Bob's > remains (ashes) transported from Kansas City to Oklahoma for interment at > the Washunga Cemetery (the Kaw Nation cemetery). I have been involved in > Kaw Nation Cultural Committee meetings to try and get all these things > taken care of, and have been in touch with Carolyn on an ongoing basis. > There will be a memorial service here for him once the date is established > for the interment. We have another meeting on Monday in which I hope the > final interment date will be set, hopefully for within the next couple of > weeks. (Carolyn herself does not plan to attend as it's a fairly long drive > and she's still in the midst of taking care of financial and other > arrangements since Bob's death.) I'm afraid that, due to all of these other > pressing issues, including trying to get my own PhD completed and dealing > with the transport and final interment of Bob's remains, I haven't got far > enough yet in my planning to figure out what to do with all Bob's academic > material from Lawrence, especially physical papers and files, once I get > them. Storing some of this at KU or even at the Kaw Nation might be an > option, but I agree that there needs to be an organized way to go through > this and get it disseminated to all of us who are interested, as well as > being archived somewhere accessible to the public - perhaps even the > Smithsonian? I will have to do some homework around all this, but not until > I've dealt with these other pressing topics first. Perhaps by the time I > see everyone in Wisconsin I'll have a better idea of what to do and how to > do it. I appreciate the offers of help and will let you know once I have a > better handle on it all. Thanks! > > Dave > > David Kaufman > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > > On Sat, Apr 12, 2014 at 1:18 PM, Catherine Rudin wrote: > >> So, it looks to me like we're talking about at least two different >> things, maybe three, all of which I would like to see done. >> >> (1) A collection of Bob's papers, to be published as a book and/or >> perhaps a journal special issue. The Siouan archive collection would be a >> good start on gathering these papers, though there might be others that he >> never sent in. These would be work that was finished (or close to it) but >> either not published or published in out-of-the-way places. Someone would >> need to select which works to include, edit them (as has been pointed out, >> some may not be quite ready for public consumption), and of course find a >> publisher. Volunteers? >> >> (2) A different collection of less-polished or fragmentary material, to >> be given to some appropriate archive. I imagine a lot of what Dave K will >> find in the "garage full of files" will be notes, correspondence, class >> handouts ... the kind of things that don't belong in a book or journal but >> that might well be of great interest to future researchers. Yes, things do >> get buried in archives, as someone said, but at least they are there for >> some future person to dig up. Bob once sent me a bunch of his old class >> handouts on comparative Romance; nothing publishable, but invaluable in >> putting together my own Romance linguistics course. I bet there's lots of >> similar stuff on Siouan in that garage. Someone (Dave K?) would need to >> contact an archive & do some sorting... >> >> (3) A festschrift in Bob's honor. This would presumably be a selection of >> papers on Siouan languages by some of us, though it might include a paper >> or two of Bob's too. There was a suggestion earlier that it could serve as >> a venue for some of the papers from the abandoned Comparative Siouan Syntax >> project. This one would take a fair amount of cat-herding, getting people >> to send papers in by some reasonable deadline, selecting, editing, finding >> a publisher -- lots of work, but seems well worth doing. >> >> Let's talk about all of these in Madison. To answer Meredith's question >> -- I think we should have a fairly good chunk of time (at least an hour??? >> perhaps at the end of an afternoon so it could run as long as needed?) Will >> there be a separate chance to talk about Bob's life and what he meant to us >> all, or are you picturing rolling a memorial together with talking about >> publication plans? >> >> Sorry to go on at such length -- the thread seems to be getting a bit >> fragmented and I'm hoping to gather it back together. >> Catherine >> >> >>> Marianne Mithun 04/12/14 11:22 AM >>> >> I completely agree with David. There is so much there, and when I've >> asked >> Bob about various things, he's come up with handouts from 25 years >> earlier, >> and papers from decades before or recently, all of them so valuable. A >> tricky call of course. How many of us would like our unfinished work out >> there. But so much of Bob's work was really finished. >> >> Marianne >> >> --On Saturday, April 12, 2014 7:34 AM -0600 ROOD DAVID S >> wrote: >> >> > Dave, if Carolyn is willing, I think it would be much better to try to >> > arrange for a book or a series of journal publications (e.g. a special >> > issue of IJAL) rather than an archive. Things get buried in archives. >> > However, I know that a lot of what Bob circulated to us was stuff he >> > considered unfinished. The extent to which anyone else would consider >> > that work publishable needs to be discussed with Carolyn. >> > >> > Best, >> > David >> > >> > David S. Rood >> > Dept. of Linguistics >> > Univ. of Colorado >> > 295 UCB >> > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >> > USA >> > rood at colorado.edu >> > >> > On Fri, 11 Apr 2014, David Kaufman wrote: >> > >> >> I don't know if Bob expressed such an interest, at least not to me, and >> >> possibly not to Carolyn either (she didn't mention it). I'd have to >> look >> >> into how we would go about submitting papers to these organizations for >> >> their archives. Any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated. >> >> >> >> Dave >> >> >> >> David Kaufman >> >> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >> >> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 1:26 PM, David Costa >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> Did Bob ever express a preference as to where his papers should end >> up? >> >>> I would assume either the NAA or the APS would be best... >> >>> >> >>> Dave Costa >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Hi David and all, >> >>> >> >>> Sorry to hear David that you won't be able to make it to the SCLC this >> >>> year. >> >>> >> >>> I know we have talked about doing a Festschrift in Bob's honor, and >> this >> >>> is certainly something we can discuss at the meeting. Hopefully our >> >>> organizers can set aside some time on the schedule so we can all >> >>> participate in this discussion. >> >>> >> >>> As for the CSD, I think it's a great idea to have it finalized and >> >>> published in some form, either electronically or in print, or both. >> >>> >> >>> As concerns Bob's unpublished papers and computer files, Carolyn, >> Bob's >> >>> wife, and I have been in touch fairly regularly. Even before Bob's >> >>> death, she said that she and Bob had discussed it and thought it would >> >>> be best that I come up to their house and "clean out" his garage full >> >>> of files, books, etc. Also, I plan to take a USB drive and download as >> >>> much of his computer files as possible, at least some of which I know >> >>> pertain to Kaw. I'll be happy to distribute whatever I find pertaining >> >>> to other Siouan languages to those of you who want it. I'm hoping to >> >>> go up and do this in the next couple of months, possibly in early June >> >>> or so before it gets too hot. I know Carolyn is thinking about selling >> >>> the house and moving up to be with family in Wisconsin, so this >> >>> cleaning out will have to be done fairly soon anyway. >> >>> >> >>> Anyway, I'll keep everyone posted as plans for these things become >> more >> >>> concrete. Things are a bit crazy for me right now as I work full-time >> >>> for the Kaw Nation and try to finish my dissertation without yet >> having >> >>> another committee member to substitute for Bob. I hope to defend in >> >>> May, but I'm still awaiting final word on a new committee member and >> >>> date from my advisor. >> >>> >> >>> Dave >> >>> >> >>> David Kaufman >> >>> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >> >>> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 12:27 PM, ROOD DAVID S >> >>> wrote: >> >>> >> >>>> Hi, everyone, >> >>>> My family schedule for at least part of the summer has finally >> >>>> settled down, and I regret that it precludes me from attending the >> SCLC >> >>>> again this year. The earliest I could get to Madison would be >> >>>> mid-afternoon on Saturday, hardly the appropriate time for >> >>>> participating in the meeting. >> >>>> >> >>>> I am very much interested in what is decided about honoring Bob >> >>>> Rankin, however, and in what might be done to make his huge >> >>>> contribution to the history of Siouan and the structure of Dhegiah >> >>>> part of a permanent record. I know he has many papers that have never >> >>>> been published, as well as many that are published here and there in >> >>>> places we don't always know about. As early as 1984, at the workshop >> >>>> that launched the Comparative Dictionary project, I proposed a >> >>>> "collection of papers" volume that would be a place for his work (and >> >>>> others), but that has never materialized. Moreover, for the last few >> >>>> years Bob was the major player in the evolution of the >> >>>> Comparative Dictionary. As most of you know, Iren Hartmann at the >> >>>> MPI-Leipzig is working on creating a usable digital verson of the >> CSD. >> >>>> Of the original 5 participants (John Koontz, Wes Jones, Dick Carter, >> >>>> Rankin and me) in the project, I guess I'm the only one who is still >> >>>> interested and available, so I'm going to work with Iren to see if >> >>>> that can't be finalized and formalized. There is quite a bit of >> >>>> urgency here, because as many of you know, the structure of the MPI >> in >> >>>> Leipzig will change dramatically in May of 2015, and they will likely >> >>>> no longer be interested in supporting Iren's work. >> >>>> >> >>>> If any of you have any thoughts on how best to move forward >> >>>> with either Bob's legacy or the CSD, please discuss them at >> >>>> the meeting and keep me informed. I don't feel like I know Carolyn >> >>>> well enough to approach her about any of this; perhaps one of you >> >>>> would be willing to help with that. >> >>>> >> >>>> Best wishes to all for a fruitful and fun meeting. >> >>>> >> >>>> David >> >>>> >> >>>> David S. Rood >> >>>> Dept. of Linguistics >> >>>> Univ. of Colorado >> >>>> 295 UCB >> >>>> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >> >>>> USA >> >>>> rood at colorado.edu >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >> >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Johannes.Helmbrecht at SPRACHLIT.UNI-REGENSBURG.DE Sun Apr 13 10:48:21 2014 From: Johannes.Helmbrecht at SPRACHLIT.UNI-REGENSBURG.DE (Johannes Helmbrecht) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 12:48:21 +0200 Subject: Antw: Festschrift for Bob In-Reply-To: <53493D290200008E000B1E4E@hermes.wsc.edu> Message-ID: Dear Siouanists, I remember that I once had a conversation with Bob on published articles on Siouan languages, and he told me that Siouanists are lazy, they don't publish their stuff, so that so many manuscripts bear the lable "unfinished or unpublished" and are stored somewhere on various computers or even as copies in various shoeboxes. I think, we are all aware of this problem. So in addition to Catherine's proposals, with which I agree, I would like to hint at a possibility we could also discuss in Madison. Many university libraries offer digital open access publikations on their servers. So, perhaps it would be a good idea to get an extra space (perhaps at his home university) for Bob's numerous unfinished or simply unpublished papers which are so valuable for our research on Siouan languages. This does not preclude an extra printed volume - Festschrift - with a selection of papers (the best of Bob's papers so to say). One might even elaborate this idea further. Having server space for all these of Bob's manuscripts or even notes, we could also think of enlarging this space with the stuff John has in his Siouan web archive to bring these repositories together. And in the future, everyone could add his or her "unfinished" paper to this kind of open access archive. With regard to the Comparitive Siouan Linguistics Volume - I very much would like to support this idea in general and also the idea to include Bob's contributions to this project. This would be an opportunity for us to show with our own work that we have learnt so much from Bob, a nice way, I think, to honor his scientific work. I would volunteer for this project, if my help would be considered useful. Best Johannes -- Professor Dr. Johannes Helmbrecht Lehrstuhl f?r Allgemeine und Vergleichende Sprachwissenschaft Fakult?t f?r Sprach-, Literatur- und Kulturwissenschaften Universit?t Regensburg Universit?tsstrasse 31 D-93053 Regensburg Tel. 0941/943-3388 Tel. 0941/943-3387 (Sekretariat) Fax. 0941/943-2429 Website: www-avs.uni-regensburg.de E-mail: johannes.helmbrecht at sprachlit.uni-regensburg.de >>> Catherine Rudin schrieb am 12.04.2014 um 20:18: > So, it looks to me like we're talking about at least two different things, > maybe three, all of which I would like to see done. > > (1) A collection of Bob's papers, to be published as a book and/or perhaps a > journal special issue. The Siouan archive collection would be a good start on > gathering these papers, though there might be others that he never sent in. > These would be work that was finished (or close to it) but either not > published or published in out-of-the-way places. Someone would need to select > which works to include, edit them (as has been pointed out, some may not be > quite ready for public consumption), and of course find a publisher. > Volunteers? > > (2) A different collection of less-polished or fragmentary material, to be > given to some appropriate archive. I imagine a lot of what Dave K will find > in the "garage full of files" will be notes, correspondence, class handouts > ... the kind of things that don't belong in a book or journal but that might > well be of great interest to future researchers. Yes, things do get buried > in archives, as someone said, but at least they are there for some future > person to dig up. Bob once sent me a bunch of his old class handouts on > comparative Romance; nothing publishable, but invaluable in putting together > my own Romance linguistics course. I bet there's lots of similar stuff on > Siouan in that garage. Someone (Dave K?) would need to contact an archive & > do some sorting... > > (3) A festschrift in Bob's honor. This would presumably be a selection of > papers on Siouan languages by some of us, though it might include a paper or > two of Bob's too. There was a suggestion earlier that it could serve as a > venue for some of the papers from the abandoned Comparative Siouan Syntax > project. This one would take a fair amount of cat-herding, getting people to > send papers in by some reasonable deadline, selecting, editing, finding a > publisher -- lots of work, but seems well worth doing. > > Let's talk about all of these in Madison. To answer Meredith's question -- I > think we should have a fairly good chunk of time (at least an hour??? perhaps > at the end of an afternoon so it could run as long as needed?) Will there be > a separate chance to talk about Bob's life and what he meant to us all, or > are you picturing rolling a memorial together with talking about publication > plans? > > Sorry to go on at such length -- the thread seems to be getting a bit > fragmented and I'm hoping to gather it back together. > Catherine > >>>> Marianne Mithun 04/12/14 11:22 AM >>> > I completely agree with David. There is so much there, and when I've asked > Bob about various things, he's come up with handouts from 25 years earlier, > and papers from decades before or recently, all of them so valuable. A > tricky call of course. How many of us would like our unfinished work out > there. But so much of Bob's work was really finished. > > Marianne > > --On Saturday, April 12, 2014 7:34 AM -0600 ROOD DAVID S > wrote: > >> Dave, if Carolyn is willing, I think it would be much better to try to >> arrange for a book or a series of journal publications (e.g. a special >> issue of IJAL) rather than an archive. Things get buried in archives. >> However, I know that a lot of what Bob circulated to us was stuff he >> considered unfinished. The extent to which anyone else would consider >> that work publishable needs to be discussed with Carolyn. >> >> Best, >> David >> >> David S. Rood >> Dept. of Linguistics >> Univ. of Colorado >> 295 UCB >> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >> USA >> rood at colorado.edu >> >> On Fri, 11 Apr 2014, David Kaufman wrote: >> >>> I don't know if Bob expressed such an interest, at least not to me, and >>> possibly not to Carolyn either (she didn't mention it). I'd have to look >>> into how we would go about submitting papers to these organizations for >>> their archives. Any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated. >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> David Kaufman >>> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >>> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 1:26 PM, David Costa >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Did Bob ever express a preference as to where his papers should end up? >>>> I would assume either the NAA or the APS would be best... >>>> >>>> Dave Costa >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi David and all, >>>> >>>> Sorry to hear David that you won't be able to make it to the SCLC this >>>> year. >>>> >>>> I know we have talked about doing a Festschrift in Bob's honor, and this >>>> is certainly something we can discuss at the meeting. Hopefully our >>>> organizers can set aside some time on the schedule so we can all >>>> participate in this discussion. >>>> >>>> As for the CSD, I think it's a great idea to have it finalized and >>>> published in some form, either electronically or in print, or both. >>>> >>>> As concerns Bob's unpublished papers and computer files, Carolyn, Bob's >>>> wife, and I have been in touch fairly regularly. Even before Bob's >>>> death, she said that she and Bob had discussed it and thought it would >>>> be best that I come up to their house and "clean out" his garage full >>>> of files, books, etc. Also, I plan to take a USB drive and download as >>>> much of his computer files as possible, at least some of which I know >>>> pertain to Kaw. I'll be happy to distribute whatever I find pertaining >>>> to other Siouan languages to those of you who want it. I'm hoping to >>>> go up and do this in the next couple of months, possibly in early June >>>> or so before it gets too hot. I know Carolyn is thinking about selling >>>> the house and moving up to be with family in Wisconsin, so this >>>> cleaning out will have to be done fairly soon anyway. >>>> >>>> Anyway, I'll keep everyone posted as plans for these things become more >>>> concrete. Things are a bit crazy for me right now as I work full-time >>>> for the Kaw Nation and try to finish my dissertation without yet having >>>> another committee member to substitute for Bob. I hope to defend in >>>> May, but I'm still awaiting final word on a new committee member and >>>> date from my advisor. >>>> >>>> Dave >>>> >>>> David Kaufman >>>> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >>>> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 12:27 PM, ROOD DAVID S >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi, everyone, >>>>> My family schedule for at least part of the summer has finally >>>>> settled down, and I regret that it precludes me from attending the SCLC >>>>> again this year. The earliest I could get to Madison would be >>>>> mid-afternoon on Saturday, hardly the appropriate time for >>>>> participating in the meeting. >>>>> >>>>> I am very much interested in what is decided about honoring Bob >>>>> Rankin, however, and in what might be done to make his huge >>>>> contribution to the history of Siouan and the structure of Dhegiah >>>>> part of a permanent record. I know he has many papers that have never >>>>> been published, as well as many that are published here and there in >>>>> places we don't always know about. As early as 1984, at the workshop >>>>> that launched the Comparative Dictionary project, I proposed a >>>>> "collection of papers" volume that would be a place for his work (and >>>>> others), but that has never materialized. Moreover, for the last few >>>>> years Bob was the major player in the evolution of the >>>>> Comparative Dictionary. As most of you know, Iren Hartmann at the >>>>> MPI-Leipzig is working on creating a usable digital verson of the CSD. >>>>> Of the original 5 participants (John Koontz, Wes Jones, Dick Carter, >>>>> Rankin and me) in the project, I guess I'm the only one who is still >>>>> interested and available, so I'm going to work with Iren to see if >>>>> that can't be finalized and formalized. There is quite a bit of >>>>> urgency here, because as many of you know, the structure of the MPI in >>>>> Leipzig will change dramatically in May of 2015, and they will likely >>>>> no longer be interested in supporting Iren's work. >>>>> >>>>> If any of you have any thoughts on how best to move forward >>>>> with either Bob's legacy or the CSD, please discuss them at >>>>> the meeting and keep me informed. I don't feel like I know Carolyn >>>>> well enough to approach her about any of this; perhaps one of you >>>>> would be willing to help with that. >>>>> >>>>> Best wishes to all for a fruitful and fun meeting. >>>>> >>>>> David >>>>> >>>>> David S. Rood >>>>> Dept. of Linguistics >>>>> Univ. of Colorado >>>>> 295 UCB >>>>> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >>>>> USA >>>>> rood at colorado.edu >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> From ishna00 at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Apr 13 11:26:46 2014 From: ishna00 at HOTMAIL.COM (Charles Thode) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 06:26:46 -0500 Subject: Alice translation In-Reply-To: <002601cf5697$8d628c10$a827a430$@com> Message-ID: It's funny to see this request as I attempted to translate it into Lakhota in 1996. My friend (a native speaker) and I got through one paragraph before we decided "This ain't gonna happen". I'd be willing to proofread for anyone who tries! :-) Chuck Thode Dalian, Liaoning, PRC Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 16:38:29 -0500 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Subject: Re: Alice translation To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu My wife and I were out this morning when the idea of "mysterious/sacred" came to mind and we discussed it for a bit. I like this approach if the idea of "curious" is "weird/strange" rather than "I want to know." What I am lacking here is the cultural distinction (if any) between mysterious, sacred, medicine, etc. in these languages. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jan Ullrich Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2014 8:26 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Alice translation >> Alice was a Victorian-age English girl. When she fell down the rabbit hole and sampled the mushrooms, she said: ?Curiouser and curiouser.? A modern day American girl might communicate the same message with the formula: ?Well, this is really getting weird.? Here, the same substantive message can be communicated at least two different ways in the same language without using any of the same words or grammatical devices.>>> In the mouths of fluent speakers, Siouan languages most likely had ways of expressing this same message. It is not culturally specific; anybody, anywhere, might have occasion to utter it. Lexically, we might want to check to see if we have one or more words meaning ?curious?, in the sense of ?strange?, ?odd?, ?weird?, or ?contrary to expectations?. If not, some word in the language probably got overlooked, and if we still have speakers we should search for it. Rorry,I think that in the context you described the expression is to a high degree synonymous with the words ?mysterious? and perhaps ?magical?. So one of the possible free translations of the sentence into Lakota is this: ?S??m wakh?? ?ye? (more / mysterious / it is becoming gradually or changing cumulatively). Jan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.rood at COLORADO.EDU Sun Apr 13 13:41:06 2014 From: david.rood at COLORADO.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 07:41:06 -0600 Subject: regrets and thoughts In-Reply-To: <53496DC00200008E000B1E86@hermes.wsc.edu> Message-ID: I will be glad to help with the editing of papers, and even with the selection if people think it's appropriate. Remember 20 years of IJAL. I'm very happy to hear from Randy and from John Boyle and Willem that you have organized collections. I probably have most of the papers, too, but I sort such things topically, so it might be hard to be sure I found everything. One decision that clearly needs to be made at the Wisconsin meeting is whether or not pursuing a Rankin Anthology is appropriate. I'm pretty sure that we have enough expertise among us to find a publisher and make it a good tribute. I am less enthusiastic about volunteering to help with a festschrift, but that, too, would be a valuable undertaking. Best, David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Sat, 12 Apr 2014, Catherine Rudin wrote: > Dave -- WRITE YOUR DISSERTATION!!!!! :-) > >>>> David Kaufman 4/12/2014 2:01 PM >>> > Just to follow up here, we are also working on trying to get Bob's remains (ashes) transported from Kansas City to Oklahoma for interment at the Washunga Cemetery (the Kaw Nation cemetery). I have been involved in Kaw Nation Cultural Committee meetings to try and get all these things taken care of, and have been in touch with Carolyn on an ongoing basis. There will be a memorial service here for him once the date is established for the interment. We have another meeting on Monday in which I hope the final interment date will be set, hopefully for within the next couple of weeks. (Carolyn herself does not plan to attend as it's a fairly long drive and she's still in the midst of taking care of financial and other arrangements since Bob's death.) I'm afraid that, due to all of these other pressing issues, including trying to get my own PhD completed and dealing with the transport and final interment of Bob's remains, I haven't got far enough yet in my planning to figure out what to do with all Bob's academic material from Lawrence, especially physical papers and files, once I get them. Storing some of this at KU or even at the Kaw Nation might be an option, but I agree that there needs to be an organized way to go through this and get it disseminated to all of us who are interested, as well as being archived somewhere accessible to the public - perhaps even the Smithsonian? I will have to do some homework around all this, but not until I've dealt with these other pressing topics first. Perhaps by the time I see everyone in Wisconsin I'll have a better idea of what to do and how to do it. I appreciate the offers of help and will let you know once I have a better handle on it all. Thanks! > > Dave > > David Kaufman > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > > On Sat, Apr 12, 2014 at 1:18 PM, Catherine Rudin wrote: > > > So, it looks to me like we're talking about at least two different things, maybe three, all of which I would like to see done. > > (1) A collection of Bob's papers, to be published as a book and/or perhaps a journal special issue. The Siouan archive collection would be a good start on gathering these papers, though there might be others that he never sent in. These would be work that was finished (or close to it) but either not published or published in out-of-the-way places. Someone would need to select which works to include, edit them (as has been pointed out, some may not be quite ready for public consumption), and of course find a publisher. Volunteers? > > (2) A different collection of less-polished or fragmentary material, to be given to some appropriate archive. I imagine a lot of what Dave K will find in the "garage full of files" will be notes, correspondence, class handouts ... the kind of things that don't belong in a book or journal but that might well be of great interest to future researchers. Yes, things do get buried in archives, as someone said, but at least they are there for some future person to dig up. Bob once sent me a bunch of his old class handouts on comparative Romance; nothing publishable, but invaluable in putting together my own Romance linguistics course. I bet there's lots of similar stuff on Siouan in that garage. Someone (Dave K?) would need to contact an archive & do some sorting... > > (3) A festschrift in Bob's honor. This would presumably be a selection of papers on Siouan languages by some of us, though it might include a paper or two of Bob's too. There was a suggestion earlier that it could serve as a venue for some of the papers from the abandoned Comparative Siouan Syntax project. This one would take a fair amount of cat-herding, getting people to send papers in by some reasonable deadline, selecting, editing, finding a publisher -- lots of work, but seems well worth doing. > > Let's talk about all of these in Madison. To answer Meredith's question -- I think we should have a fairly good chunk of time (at least an hour??? perhaps at the end of an afternoon so it could run as long as needed?) Will there be a separate chance to talk about Bob's life and what he meant to us all, or are you picturing rolling a memorial together with talking about publication plans? > > Sorry to go on at such length -- the thread seems to be getting a bit fragmented and I'm hoping to gather it back together. > Catherine > >>>> Marianne Mithun 04/12/14 11:22 AM >>> > I completely agree with David. There is so much there, and when I've asked > Bob about various things, he's come up with handouts from 25 years earlier, > and papers from decades before or recently, all of them so valuable. A > tricky call of course. How many of us would like our unfinished work out > there. But so much of Bob's work was really finished. > > Marianne > > --On Saturday, April 12, 2014 7:34 AM -0600 ROOD DAVID S > wrote: > >> Dave, if Carolyn is willing, I think it would be much better to try to >> arrange for a book or a series of journal publications (e.g. a special >> issue of IJAL) rather than an archive. Things get buried in archives. >> However, I know that a lot of what Bob circulated to us was stuff he >> considered unfinished. The extent to which anyone else would consider >> that work publishable needs to be discussed with Carolyn. >> >> Best, >> David >> >> David S. Rood >> Dept. of Linguistics >> Univ. of Colorado >> 295 UCB >> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >> USA >> rood at colorado.edu >> >> On Fri, 11 Apr 2014, David Kaufman wrote: >> >>> I don't know if Bob expressed such an interest, at least not to me, and >>> possibly not to Carolyn either (she didn't mention it). I'd have to look >>> into how we would go about submitting papers to these organizations for >>> their archives. Any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated. >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> David Kaufman >>> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >>> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 1:26 PM, David Costa >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Did Bob ever express a preference as to where his papers should end up? >>>> I would assume either the NAA or the APS would be best... >>>> >>>> Dave Costa >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi David and all, >>>> >>>> Sorry to hear David that you won't be able to make it to the SCLC this >>>> year. >>>> >>>> I know we have talked about doing a Festschrift in Bob's honor, and this >>>> is certainly something we can discuss at the meeting. Hopefully our >>>> organizers can set aside some time on the schedule so we can all >>>> participate in this discussion. >>>> >>>> As for the CSD, I think it's a great idea to have it finalized and >>>> published in some form, either electronically or in print, or both. >>>> >>>> As concerns Bob's unpublished papers and computer files, Carolyn, Bob's >>>> wife, and I have been in touch fairly regularly. Even before Bob's >>>> death, she said that she and Bob had discussed it and thought it would >>>> be best that I come up to their house and "clean out" his garage full >>>> of files, books, etc. Also, I plan to take a USB drive and download as >>>> much of his computer files as possible, at least some of which I know >>>> pertain to Kaw. I'll be happy to distribute whatever I find pertaining >>>> to other Siouan languages to those of you who want it. I'm hoping to >>>> go up and do this in the next couple of months, possibly in early June >>>> or so before it gets too hot. I know Carolyn is thinking about selling >>>> the house and moving up to be with family in Wisconsin, so this >>>> cleaning out will have to be done fairly soon anyway. >>>> >>>> Anyway, I'll keep everyone posted as plans for these things become more >>>> concrete. Things are a bit crazy for me right now as I work full-time >>>> for the Kaw Nation and try to finish my dissertation without yet having >>>> another committee member to substitute for Bob. I hope to defend in >>>> May, but I'm still awaiting final word on a new committee member and >>>> date from my advisor. >>>> >>>> Dave >>>> >>>> David Kaufman >>>> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >>>> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 12:27 PM, ROOD DAVID S >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi, everyone, >>>>> My family schedule for at least part of the summer has finally >>>>> settled down, and I regret that it precludes me from attending the SCLC >>>>> again this year. The earliest I could get to Madison would be >>>>> mid-afternoon on Saturday, hardly the appropriate time for >>>>> participating in the meeting. >>>>> >>>>> I am very much interested in what is decided about honoring Bob >>>>> Rankin, however, and in what might be done to make his huge >>>>> contribution to the history of Siouan and the structure of Dhegiah >>>>> part of a permanent record. I know he has many papers that have never >>>>> been published, as well as many that are published here and there in >>>>> places we don't always know about. As early as 1984, at the workshop >>>>> that launched the Comparative Dictionary project, I proposed a >>>>> "collection of papers" volume that would be a place for his work (and >>>>> others), but that has never materialized. Moreover, for the last few >>>>> years Bob was the major player in the evolution of the >>>>> Comparative Dictionary. As most of you know, Iren Hartmann at the >>>>> MPI-Leipzig is working on creating a usable digital verson of the CSD. >>>>> Of the original 5 participants (John Koontz, Wes Jones, Dick Carter, >>>>> Rankin and me) in the project, I guess I'm the only one who is still >>>>> interested and available, so I'm going to work with Iren to see if >>>>> that can't be finalized and formalized. There is quite a bit of >>>>> urgency here, because as many of you know, the structure of the MPI in >>>>> Leipzig will change dramatically in May of 2015, and they will likely >>>>> no longer be interested in supporting Iren's work. >>>>> >>>>> If any of you have any thoughts on how best to move forward >>>>> with either Bob's legacy or the CSD, please discuss them at >>>>> the meeting and keep me informed. I don't feel like I know Carolyn >>>>> well enough to approach her about any of this; perhaps one of you >>>>> would be willing to help with that. >>>>> >>>>> Best wishes to all for a fruitful and fun meeting. >>>>> >>>>> David >>>>> >>>>> David S. Rood >>>>> Dept. of Linguistics >>>>> Univ. of Colorado >>>>> 295 UCB >>>>> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >>>>> USA >>>>> rood at colorado.edu >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> > > > From WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU Sun Apr 13 17:33:37 2014 From: WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU (De Reuse, Willem) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 17:33:37 +0000 Subject: Antw: Festschrift for Bob In-Reply-To: <534A8795020000400005F09B@gwsmtp1.uni-regensburg.de> Message-ID: Hmm, let us take Bob's statements that Siouanists are lazy with a grain of salt. I don't know about all fields of Native American linguistics, but in the field of Athabascan, we have the same problem! And Athabascanists won't tolerate anyone calling them lazy! :) Willem ________________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics on behalf of Johannes Helmbrecht Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2014 5:48 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Antw: Festschrift for Bob Dear Siouanists, I remember that I once had a conversation with Bob on published articles on Siouan languages, and he told me that Siouanists are lazy, they don't publish their stuff, so that so many manuscripts bear the lable "unfinished or unpublished" and are stored somewhere on various computers or even as copies in various shoeboxes. I think, we are all aware of this problem. From WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU Sun Apr 13 17:42:46 2014 From: WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU (De Reuse, Willem) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 17:42:46 +0000 Subject: Helping with editing of papers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Since I was one of the earlier Siouanist students of Bob's, I would be happy to help edit a collection of his unpublished papers, preferrably after 2014. I would not have the time writing a paper for a Festschrift, though. Athabaskan (THE language family for masochists!) keeps me pretty busy these days as well. But I treasure the memory of Bob (and Ken Miner as well), who were the people who encouraged me to become an early Siouanist. Willem ________________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics on behalf of ROOD DAVID S Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2014 8:41 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: regrets and thoughts I will be glad to help with the editing of papers, and even with the selection if people think it's appropriate. Remember 20 years of IJAL. I'm very happy to hear from Randy and from John Boyle and Willem that you have organized collections. I probably have most of the papers, too, but I sort such things topically, so it might be hard to be sure I found everything. One decision that clearly needs to be made at the Wisconsin meeting is whether or not pursuing a Rankin Anthology is appropriate. I'm pretty sure that we have enough expertise among us to find a publisher and make it a good tribute. I am less enthusiastic about volunteering to help with a festschrift, but that, too, would be a valuable undertaking. Best, David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Sat, 12 Apr 2014, Catherine Rudin wrote: > Dave -- WRITE YOUR DISSERTATION!!!!! :-) > >>>> David Kaufman 4/12/2014 2:01 PM >>> > Just to follow up here, we are also working on trying to get Bob's remains (ashes) transported from Kansas City to Oklahoma for interment at the Washunga Cemetery (the Kaw Nation cemetery). I have been involved in Kaw Nation Cultural Committee meetings to try and get all these things taken care of, and have been in touch with Carolyn on an ongoing basis. There will be a memorial service here for him once the date is established for the interment. We have another meeting on Monday in which I hope the final interment date will be set, hopefully for within the next couple of weeks. (Carolyn herself does not plan to attend as it's a fairly long drive and she's still in the midst of taking care of financial and other arrangements since Bob's death.) I'm afraid that, due to all of these other pressing issues, including trying to get my own PhD completed and dealing with the transport and final interment of Bob's remains, I haven't got far enough yet in my planning to figure out ! what to do with all Bob's academic material from Lawrence, especially physical papers and files, once I get them. Storing some of this at KU or even at the Kaw Nation might be an option, but I agree that there needs to be an organized way to go through this and get it disseminated to all of us who are interested, as well as being archived somewhere accessible to the public - perhaps even the Smithsonian? I will have to do some homework around all this, but not until I've dealt with these other pressing topics first. Perhaps by the time I see everyone in Wisconsin I'll have a better idea of what to do and how to do it. I appreciate the offers of help and will let you know once I have a better handle on it all. Thanks! > > Dave > > David Kaufman > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > > On Sat, Apr 12, 2014 at 1:18 PM, Catherine Rudin wrote: > > > So, it looks to me like we're talking about at least two different things, maybe three, all of which I would like to see done. > > (1) A collection of Bob's papers, to be published as a book and/or perhaps a journal special issue. The Siouan archive collection would be a good start on gathering these papers, though there might be others that he never sent in. These would be work that was finished (or close to it) but either not published or published in out-of-the-way places. Someone would need to select which works to include, edit them (as has been pointed out, some may not be quite ready for public consumption), and of course find a publisher. Volunteers? > > (2) A different collection of less-polished or fragmentary material, to be given to some appropriate archive. I imagine a lot of what Dave K will find in the "garage full of files" will be notes, correspondence, class handouts ... the kind of things that don't belong in a book or journal but that might well be of great interest to future researchers. Yes, things do get buried in archives, as someone said, but at least they are there for some future person to dig up. Bob once sent me a bunch of his old class handouts on comparative Romance; nothing publishable, but invaluable in putting together my own Romance linguistics course. I bet there's lots of similar stuff on Siouan in that garage. Someone (Dave K?) would need to contact an archive & do some sorting... > > (3) A festschrift in Bob's honor. This would presumably be a selection of papers on Siouan languages by some of us, though it might include a paper or two of Bob's too. There was a suggestion earlier that it could serve as a venue for some of the papers from the abandoned Comparative Siouan Syntax project. This one would take a fair amount of cat-herding, getting people to send papers in by some reasonable deadline, selecting, editing, finding a publisher -- lots of work, but seems well worth doing. > > Let's talk about all of these in Madison. To answer Meredith's question -- I think we should have a fairly good chunk of time (at least an hour??? perhaps at the end of an afternoon so it could run as long as needed?) Will there be a separate chance to talk about Bob's life and what he meant to us all, or are you picturing rolling a memorial together with talking about publication plans? > > Sorry to go on at such length -- the thread seems to be getting a bit fragmented and I'm hoping to gather it back together. > Catherine > >>>> Marianne Mithun 04/12/14 11:22 AM >>> > I completely agree with David. There is so much there, and when I've asked > Bob about various things, he's come up with handouts from 25 years earlier, > and papers from decades before or recently, all of them so valuable. A > tricky call of course. How many of us would like our unfinished work out > there. But so much of Bob's work was really finished. > > Marianne > > --On Saturday, April 12, 2014 7:34 AM -0600 ROOD DAVID S > wrote: > >> Dave, if Carolyn is willing, I think it would be much better to try to >> arrange for a book or a series of journal publications (e.g. a special >> issue of IJAL) rather than an archive. Things get buried in archives. >> However, I know that a lot of what Bob circulated to us was stuff he >> considered unfinished. The extent to which anyone else would consider >> that work publishable needs to be discussed with Carolyn. >> >> Best, >> David >> >> David S. Rood >> Dept. of Linguistics >> Univ. of Colorado >> 295 UCB >> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >> USA >> rood at colorado.edu >> >> On Fri, 11 Apr 2014, David Kaufman wrote: >> >>> I don't know if Bob expressed such an interest, at least not to me, and >>> possibly not to Carolyn either (she didn't mention it). I'd have to look >>> into how we would go about submitting papers to these organizations for >>> their archives. Any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated. >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> David Kaufman >>> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >>> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 1:26 PM, David Costa >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Did Bob ever express a preference as to where his papers should end up? >>>> I would assume either the NAA or the APS would be best... >>>> >>>> Dave Costa >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi David and all, >>>> >>>> Sorry to hear David that you won't be able to make it to the SCLC this >>>> year. >>>> >>>> I know we have talked about doing a Festschrift in Bob's honor, and this >>>> is certainly something we can discuss at the meeting. Hopefully our >>>> organizers can set aside some time on the schedule so we can all >>>> participate in this discussion. >>>> >>>> As for the CSD, I think it's a great idea to have it finalized and >>>> published in some form, either electronically or in print, or both. >>>> >>>> As concerns Bob's unpublished papers and computer files, Carolyn, Bob's >>>> wife, and I have been in touch fairly regularly. Even before Bob's >>>> death, she said that she and Bob had discussed it and thought it would >>>> be best that I come up to their house and "clean out" his garage full >>>> of files, books, etc. Also, I plan to take a USB drive and download as >>>> much of his computer files as possible, at least some of which I know >>>> pertain to Kaw. I'll be happy to distribute whatever I find pertaining >>>> to other Siouan languages to those of you who want it. I'm hoping to >>>> go up and do this in the next couple of months, possibly in early June >>>> or so before it gets too hot. I know Carolyn is thinking about selling >>>> the house and moving up to be with family in Wisconsin, so this >>>> cleaning out will have to be done fairly soon anyway. >>>> >>>> Anyway, I'll keep everyone posted as plans for these things become more >>>> concrete. Things are a bit crazy for me right now as I work full-time >>>> for the Kaw Nation and try to finish my dissertation without yet having >>>> another committee member to substitute for Bob. I hope to defend in >>>> May, but I'm still awaiting final word on a new committee member and >>>> date from my advisor. >>>> >>>> Dave >>>> >>>> David Kaufman >>>> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >>>> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 12:27 PM, ROOD DAVID S >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi, everyone, >>>>> My family schedule for at least part of the summer has finally >>>>> settled down, and I regret that it precludes me from attending the SCLC >>>>> again this year. The earliest I could get to Madison would be >>>>> mid-afternoon on Saturday, hardly the appropriate time for >>>>> participating in the meeting. >>>>> >>>>> I am very much interested in what is decided about honoring Bob >>>>> Rankin, however, and in what might be done to make his huge >>>>> contribution to the history of Siouan and the structure of Dhegiah >>>>> part of a permanent record. I know he has many papers that have never >>>>> been published, as well as many that are published here and there in >>>>> places we don't always know about. As early as 1984, at the workshop >>>>> that launched the Comparative Dictionary project, I proposed a >>>>> "collection of papers" volume that would be a place for his work (and >>>>> others), but that has never materialized. Moreover, for the last few >>>>> years Bob was the major player in the evolution of the >>>>> Comparative Dictionary. As most of you know, Iren Hartmann at the >>>>> MPI-Leipzig is working on creating a usable digital verson of the CSD. >>>>> Of the original 5 participants (John Koontz, Wes Jones, Dick Carter, >>>>> Rankin and me) in the project, I guess I'm the only one who is still >>>>> interested and available, so I'm going to work with Iren to see if >>>>> that can't be finalized and formalized. There is quite a bit of >>>>> urgency here, because as many of you know, the structure of the MPI in >>>>> Leipzig will change dramatically in May of 2015, and they will likely >>>>> no longer be interested in supporting Iren's work. >>>>> >>>>> If any of you have any thoughts on how best to move forward >>>>> with either Bob's legacy or the CSD, please discuss them at >>>>> the meeting and keep me informed. I don't feel like I know Carolyn >>>>> well enough to approach her about any of this; perhaps one of you >>>>> would be willing to help with that. >>>>> >>>>> Best wishes to all for a fruitful and fun meeting. >>>>> >>>>> David >>>>> >>>>> David S. Rood >>>>> Dept. of Linguistics >>>>> Univ. of Colorado >>>>> 295 UCB >>>>> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >>>>> USA >>>>> rood at colorado.edu >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> > > > From kathleendshea at gmail.com Mon Apr 14 04:01:50 2014 From: kathleendshea at gmail.com (Kathleen D. Shea) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 23:01:50 -0500 Subject: regrets and thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Siouanists, I'm sorry to be so late registering my thoughts about all of this. I was away from home and tied up with family issues in California from December 23 to early March, and I arrived home to find 2 1/2 months of mail waiting for me and out-of-town visitors. I was able to attend the memorial for Bob on March 11 at KU. It was a very nice, fittingly informal gathering, with refreshments, some flowers, a display of pictures set out on some broadcloth blankets (traditional red and blue) given to him by the Kaws, and a stream of people who knew Bob. For me, it was good to see and talk with many old friends I hadn't seen in years. At the memorial, the chair of KU's linguistics department, Allard Jongman, and his wife, Joan Sereno, also a professor in the department, were there. I mentioned to them that Bob had many unpublished papers that he had generously shared with others that I would like to see published so that they would be readily accessible. Allard suggested that perhaps they could be published as a separate volume of the Kansas Working Papers in Linguistics (KWPL), where Bob has published before. I think that we could discuss this at the upcoming Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference, and I would be happy to volunteer to spearhead this project if everyone thinks this is a good idea. John Boyle and Randy Graczyk have both said that they have almost all of Bob's published and unpublished papers. The call for papers for KWPL has just gone out, and I will forward it separately to the Siouan list for your information. Concerning the publishing of a festschrift honoring Bob, I've often thought, even when he was still alive, that it would be a good idea, but I was not willing to take on the task myself. I agree with Catherine that this could appropriately "serve as a venue for some of the papers from the abandoned Comparative Siouan syntax project." I, too, would like to set aside some time at the conference to discuss this. At least an hour seems appropriate. Even though Bob stressed the necessity of everyone having an executor for academic purposes in their will, he apparently didn't follow his own advice. I've been in touch with Carolyn, Bob's wife, and will be having lunch with her on Thursday. I offered to help her sort through his papers, but she says that she is not only having to decide what to do with his papers, but also having to separate them from his ham radio materials, old medical bills, old c.d.'s and music tapes, and so forth. She's somewhat overwhelmed right now. She mentioned that she thought it might be a good idea to give his papers to the Smithsonian. I told her that many in our field donate their papers and recordings to the APS. Anyway, she asked me to put out the word to the Siouan list, who I said were discussing this very thing, that she would welcome the help of a knowledgeable linguist in organizing his papers. (She says there's also much of his written correspondence, of an academic nature, that could be useful to others if organized.) By the way, at the memorial in March, I invited Carolyn to attend the Siouan and Caddoan conference, especially considering the fact that she's from Wisconsin, where it's being held, and has family there, saying that we'd all be delighted to have her attend, but she said that, for now, she just wants to work at getting her life "back to normal." All in all, it sounds to me as though she's doing fairly well in that respect since she's gone back to work as a biologist at KU full-time. Kathy Shea Sent from my iPad > On Apr 12, 2014, at 2:01 PM, David Kaufman wrote: > > Just to follow up here, we are also working on trying to get Bob's remains (ashes) transported from Kansas City to Oklahoma for interment at the Washunga Cemetery (the Kaw Nation cemetery). I have been involved in Kaw Nation Cultural Committee meetings to try and get all these things taken care of, and have been in touch with Carolyn on an ongoing basis. There will be a memorial service here for him once the date is established for the interment. We have another meeting on Monday in which I hope the final interment date will be set, hopefully for within the next couple of weeks. (Carolyn herself does not plan to attend as it's a fairly long drive and she's still in the midst of taking care of financial and other arrangements since Bob's death.) I'm afraid that, due to all of these other pressing issues, including trying to get my own PhD completed and dealing with the transport and final interment of Bob's remains, I haven't got far enough yet in my planning to figure out what to do with all Bob's academic material from Lawrence, especially physical papers and files, once I get them. Storing some of this at KU or even at the Kaw Nation might be an option, but I agree that there needs to be an organized way to go through this and get it disseminated to all of us who are interested, as well as being archived somewhere accessible to the public - perhaps even the Smithsonian? I will have to do some homework around all this, but not until I've dealt with these other pressing topics first. Perhaps by the time I see everyone in Wisconsin I'll have a better idea of what to do and how to do it. I appreciate the offers of help and will let you know once I have a better handle on it all. Thanks! > > Dave > > David Kaufman > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > >> On Sat, Apr 12, 2014 at 1:18 PM, Catherine Rudin wrote: >> So, it looks to me like we're talking about at least two different things, maybe three, all of which I would like to see done. >> >> (1) A collection of Bob's papers, to be published as a book and/or perhaps a journal special issue. The Siouan archive collection would be a good start on gathering these papers, though there might be others that he never sent in. These would be work that was finished (or close to it) but either not published or published in out-of-the-way places. Someone would need to select which works to include, edit them (as has been pointed out, some may not be quite ready for public consumption), and of course find a publisher. Volunteers? >> >> (2) A different collection of less-polished or fragmentary material, to be given to some appropriate archive. I imagine a lot of what Dave K will find in the "garage full of files" will be notes, correspondence, class handouts ... the kind of things that don't belong in a book or journal but that might well be of great interest to future researchers. Yes, things do get buried in archives, as someone said, but at least they are there for some future person to dig up. Bob once sent me a bunch of his old class handouts on comparative Romance; nothing publishable, but invaluable in putting together my own Romance linguistics course. I bet there's lots of similar stuff on Siouan in that garage. Someone (Dave K?) would need to contact an archive & do some sorting... >> >> (3) A festschrift in Bob's honor. This would presumably be a selection of papers on Siouan languages by some of us, though it might include a paper or two of Bob's too. There was a suggestion earlier that it could serve as a venue for some of the papers from the abandoned Comparative Siouan Syntax project. This one would take a fair amount of cat-herding, getting people to send papers in by some reasonable deadline, selecting, editing, finding a publisher -- lots of work, but seems well worth doing. >> >> Let's talk about all of these in Madison. To answer Meredith's question -- I think we should have a fairly good chunk of time (at least an hour??? perhaps at the end of an afternoon so it could run as long as needed?) Will there be a separate chance to talk about Bob's life and what he meant to us all, or are you picturing rolling a memorial together with talking about publication plans? >> >> Sorry to go on at such length -- the thread seems to be getting a bit fragmented and I'm hoping to gather it back together. >> Catherine >> >> >>> Marianne Mithun 04/12/14 11:22 AM >>> >> I completely agree with David. There is so much there, and when I've asked >> Bob about various things, he's come up with handouts from 25 years earlier, >> and papers from decades before or recently, all of them so valuable. A >> tricky call of course. How many of us would like our unfinished work out >> there. But so much of Bob's work was really finished. >> >> Marianne >> >> --On Saturday, April 12, 2014 7:34 AM -0600 ROOD DAVID S >> wrote: >> >> > Dave, if Carolyn is willing, I think it would be much better to try to >> > arrange for a book or a series of journal publications (e.g. a special >> > issue of IJAL) rather than an archive. Things get buried in archives. >> > However, I know that a lot of what Bob circulated to us was stuff he >> > considered unfinished. The extent to which anyone else would consider >> > that work publishable needs to be discussed with Carolyn. >> > >> > Best, >> > David >> > >> > David S. Rood >> > Dept. of Linguistics >> > Univ. of Colorado >> > 295 UCB >> > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >> > USA >> > rood at colorado.edu >> > >> > On Fri, 11 Apr 2014, David Kaufman wrote: >> > >> >> I don't know if Bob expressed such an interest, at least not to me, and >> >> possibly not to Carolyn either (she didn't mention it). I'd have to look >> >> into how we would go about submitting papers to these organizations for >> >> their archives. Any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated. >> >> >> >> Dave >> >> >> >> David Kaufman >> >> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >> >> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 1:26 PM, David Costa >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> Did Bob ever express a preference as to where his papers should end up? >> >>> I would assume either the NAA or the APS would be best... >> >>> >> >>> Dave Costa >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Hi David and all, >> >>> >> >>> Sorry to hear David that you won't be able to make it to the SCLC this >> >>> year. >> >>> >> >>> I know we have talked about doing a Festschrift in Bob's honor, and this >> >>> is certainly something we can discuss at the meeting. Hopefully our >> >>> organizers can set aside some time on the schedule so we can all >> >>> participate in this discussion. >> >>> >> >>> As for the CSD, I think it's a great idea to have it finalized and >> >>> published in some form, either electronically or in print, or both. >> >>> >> >>> As concerns Bob's unpublished papers and computer files, Carolyn, Bob's >> >>> wife, and I have been in touch fairly regularly. Even before Bob's >> >>> death, she said that she and Bob had discussed it and thought it would >> >>> be best that I come up to their house and "clean out" his garage full >> >>> of files, books, etc. Also, I plan to take a USB drive and download as >> >>> much of his computer files as possible, at least some of which I know >> >>> pertain to Kaw. I'll be happy to distribute whatever I find pertaining >> >>> to other Siouan languages to those of you who want it. I'm hoping to >> >>> go up and do this in the next couple of months, possibly in early June >> >>> or so before it gets too hot. I know Carolyn is thinking about selling >> >>> the house and moving up to be with family in Wisconsin, so this >> >>> cleaning out will have to be done fairly soon anyway. >> >>> >> >>> Anyway, I'll keep everyone posted as plans for these things become more >> >>> concrete. Things are a bit crazy for me right now as I work full-time >> >>> for the Kaw Nation and try to finish my dissertation without yet having >> >>> another committee member to substitute for Bob. I hope to defend in >> >>> May, but I'm still awaiting final word on a new committee member and >> >>> date from my advisor. >> >>> >> >>> Dave >> >>> >> >>> David Kaufman >> >>> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >> >>> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 12:27 PM, ROOD DAVID S >> >>> wrote: >> >>> >> >>>> Hi, everyone, >> >>>> My family schedule for at least part of the summer has finally >> >>>> settled down, and I regret that it precludes me from attending the SCLC >> >>>> again this year. The earliest I could get to Madison would be >> >>>> mid-afternoon on Saturday, hardly the appropriate time for >> >>>> participating in the meeting. >> >>>> >> >>>> I am very much interested in what is decided about honoring Bob >> >>>> Rankin, however, and in what might be done to make his huge >> >>>> contribution to the history of Siouan and the structure of Dhegiah >> >>>> part of a permanent record. I know he has many papers that have never >> >>>> been published, as well as many that are published here and there in >> >>>> places we don't always know about. As early as 1984, at the workshop >> >>>> that launched the Comparative Dictionary project, I proposed a >> >>>> "collection of papers" volume that would be a place for his work (and >> >>>> others), but that has never materialized. Moreover, for the last few >> >>>> years Bob was the major player in the evolution of the >> >>>> Comparative Dictionary. As most of you know, Iren Hartmann at the >> >>>> MPI-Leipzig is working on creating a usable digital verson of the CSD. >> >>>> Of the original 5 participants (John Koontz, Wes Jones, Dick Carter, >> >>>> Rankin and me) in the project, I guess I'm the only one who is still >> >>>> interested and available, so I'm going to work with Iren to see if >> >>>> that can't be finalized and formalized. There is quite a bit of >> >>>> urgency here, because as many of you know, the structure of the MPI in >> >>>> Leipzig will change dramatically in May of 2015, and they will likely >> >>>> no longer be interested in supporting Iren's work. >> >>>> >> >>>> If any of you have any thoughts on how best to move forward >> >>>> with either Bob's legacy or the CSD, please discuss them at >> >>>> the meeting and keep me informed. I don't feel like I know Carolyn >> >>>> well enough to approach her about any of this; perhaps one of you >> >>>> would be willing to help with that. >> >>>> >> >>>> Best wishes to all for a fruitful and fun meeting. >> >>>> >> >>>> David >> >>>> >> >>>> David S. Rood >> >>>> Dept. of Linguistics >> >>>> Univ. of Colorado >> >>>> 295 UCB >> >>>> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >> >>>> USA >> >>>> rood at colorado.edu >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kathleendshea at GMAIL.COM Mon Apr 14 04:12:42 2014 From: kathleendshea at GMAIL.COM (Kathleen D. Shea) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 23:12:42 -0500 Subject: regrets and thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Siouanists, I'm sorry to be so late registering my thoughts about all of this. I was away from home and tied up with family issues in California from December 23 to early March, and I arrived home to find 2 1/2 months of mail waiting for me and out-of-town visitors. I was able to attend the memorial for Bob on March 11 at KU. It was a very nice, fittingly informal gathering, with refreshments, some flowers, a display of pictures set out on some broadcloth blankets (traditional red and blue) given to him by the Kaws, and a stream of people who knew Bob. For me, it was good to see and talk with many old friends I hadn't seen in years. At the memorial, the chair of KU's linguistics department, Allard Jongman, and his wife, Joan Sereno, also a professor in the department, were there. I mentioned to them that Bob had many unpublished papers that he had generously shared with others that I would like to see published so that they would be readily accessible. Allard suggested that perhaps they could be published as a separate volume of the Kansas Working Papers in Linguistics (KWPL), where Bob has published before. I think that we could discuss this at the upcoming Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference, and I would be happy to volunteer to spearhead this project if everyone thinks this is a good idea. John Boyle and Randy Graczyk have both said that they have almost all of Bob's published and unpublished papers. The call for papers for KWPL has just gone out, and I will forward it separately to the Siouan list for your information. Concerning the publishing of a festschrift honoring Bob, I've often thought, even when he was still alive, that it would be a good idea, but I was not willing to take on the task myself. I agree with Catherine that this could appropriately "serve as a venue for some of the papers from the abandoned Comparative Siouan syntax project." I, too, would like to set aside some time at the conference to discuss this. At least an hour seems appropriate. Even though Bob stressed the necessity of everyone having an executor for academic purposes in their will, he apparently didn't follow his own advice. I've been in touch with Carolyn, Bob's wife, and will be having lunch with her on Thursday. I offered to help her sort through his papers, but she says that she is not only having to decide what to do with his papers, but also having to separate them from his ham radio materials, old medical bills, old c.d.'s and music tapes, and so forth. She's somewhat overwhelmed right now. She mentioned that she thought it might be a good idea to give his papers to the Smithsonian. I told her that many in our field donate their papers and recordings to the APS. Anyway, she asked me to put out the word to the Siouan list, who I said were discussing this very thing, that she would welcome the help of a knowledgeable linguist in organizing his papers. (She says there's also much of his written correspondence, of an academic nature, that could be useful to others if organized.) By the way, at the memorial in March, I invited Carolyn to attend the Siouan and Caddoan conference, especially considering the fact that she's from Wisconsin, where it's being held, and has family there, saying that we'd all be delighted to have her attend, but she said that, for now, she just wants to work at getting her life "back to normal." All in all, it sounds to me as though she's doing fairly well in that respect since she's gone back to work as a biologist at KU full-time. Kathy Shea Sent from my iPad > On Apr 12, 2014, at 2:01 PM, David Kaufman wrote: > > Just to follow up here, we are also working on trying to get Bob's remains (ashes) transported from Kansas City to Oklahoma for interment at the Washunga Cemetery (the Kaw Nation cemetery). I have been involved in Kaw Nation Cultural Committee meetings to try and get all these things taken care of, and have been in touch with Carolyn on an ongoing basis. There will be a memorial service here for him once the date is established for the interment. We have another meeting on Monday in which I hope the final interment date will be set, hopefully for within the next couple of weeks. (Carolyn herself does not plan to attend as it's a fairly long drive and she's still in the midst of taking care of financial and other arrangements since Bob's death.) I'm afraid that, due to all of these other pressing issues, including trying to get my own PhD completed and dealing with the transport and final interment of Bob's remains, I haven't got far enough yet in my planning to figure out what to do with all Bob's academic material from Lawrence, especially physical papers and files, once I get them. Storing some of this at KU or even at the Kaw Nation might be an option, but I agree that there needs to be an organized way to go through this and get it disseminated to all of us who are interested, as well as being archived somewhere accessible to the public - perhaps even the Smithsonian? I will have to do some homework around all this, but not until I've dealt with these other pressing topics first. Perhaps by the time I see everyone in Wisconsin I'll have a better idea of what to do and how to do it. I appreciate the offers of help and will let you know once I have a better handle on it all. Thanks! > > Dave > > David Kaufman > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > >> On Sat, Apr 12, 2014 at 1:18 PM, Catherine Rudin wrote: >> So, it looks to me like we're talking about at least two different things, maybe three, all of which I would like to see done. >> >> (1) A collection of Bob's papers, to be published as a book and/or perhaps a journal special issue. The Siouan archive collection would be a good start on gathering these papers, though there might be others that he never sent in. These would be work that was finished (or close to it) but either not published or published in out-of-the-way places. Someone would need to select which works to include, edit them (as has been pointed out, some may not be quite ready for public consumption), and of course find a publisher. Volunteers? >> >> (2) A different collection of less-polished or fragmentary material, to be given to some appropriate archive. I imagine a lot of what Dave K will find in the "garage full of files" will be notes, correspondence, class handouts ... the kind of things that don't belong in a book or journal but that might well be of great interest to future researchers. Yes, things do get buried in archives, as someone said, but at least they are there for some future person to dig up. Bob once sent me a bunch of his old class handouts on comparative Romance; nothing publishable, but invaluable in putting together my own Romance linguistics course. I bet there's lots of similar stuff on Siouan in that garage. Someone (Dave K?) would need to contact an archive & do some sorting... >> >> (3) A festschrift in Bob's honor. This would presumably be a selection of papers on Siouan languages by some of us, though it might include a paper or two of Bob's too. There was a suggestion earlier that it could serve as a venue for some of the papers from the abandoned Comparative Siouan Syntax project. This one would take a fair amount of cat-herding, getting people to send papers in by some reasonable deadline, selecting, editing, finding a publisher -- lots of work, but seems well worth doing. >> >> Let's talk about all of these in Madison. To answer Meredith's question -- I think we should have a fairly good chunk of time (at least an hour??? perhaps at the end of an afternoon so it could run as long as needed?) Will there be a separate chance to talk about Bob's life and what he meant to us all, or are you picturing rolling a memorial together with talking about publication plans? >> >> Sorry to go on at such length -- the thread seems to be getting a bit fragmented and I'm hoping to gather it back together. >> Catherine >> >> >>> Marianne Mithun 04/12/14 11:22 AM >>> >> I completely agree with David. There is so much there, and when I've asked >> Bob about various things, he's come up with handouts from 25 years earlier, >> and papers from decades before or recently, all of them so valuable. A >> tricky call of course. How many of us would like our unfinished work out >> there. But so much of Bob's work was really finished. >> >> Marianne >> >> --On Saturday, April 12, 2014 7:34 AM -0600 ROOD DAVID S >> wrote: >> >> > Dave, if Carolyn is willing, I think it would be much better to try to >> > arrange for a book or a series of journal publications (e.g. a special >> > issue of IJAL) rather than an archive. Things get buried in archives. >> > However, I know that a lot of what Bob circulated to us was stuff he >> > considered unfinished. The extent to which anyone else would consider >> > that work publishable needs to be discussed with Carolyn. >> > >> > Best, >> > David >> > >> > David S. Rood >> > Dept. of Linguistics >> > Univ. of Colorado >> > 295 UCB >> > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >> > USA >> > rood at colorado.edu >> > >> > On Fri, 11 Apr 2014, David Kaufman wrote: >> > >> >> I don't know if Bob expressed such an interest, at least not to me, and >> >> possibly not to Carolyn either (she didn't mention it). I'd have to look >> >> into how we would go about submitting papers to these organizations for >> >> their archives. Any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated. >> >> >> >> Dave >> >> >> >> David Kaufman >> >> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >> >> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 1:26 PM, David Costa >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> Did Bob ever express a preference as to where his papers should end up? >> >>> I would assume either the NAA or the APS would be best... >> >>> >> >>> Dave Costa >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Hi David and all, >> >>> >> >>> Sorry to hear David that you won't be able to make it to the SCLC this >> >>> year. >> >>> >> >>> I know we have talked about doing a Festschrift in Bob's honor, and this >> >>> is certainly something we can discuss at the meeting. Hopefully our >> >>> organizers can set aside some time on the schedule so we can all >> >>> participate in this discussion. >> >>> >> >>> As for the CSD, I think it's a great idea to have it finalized and >> >>> published in some form, either electronically or in print, or both. >> >>> >> >>> As concerns Bob's unpublished papers and computer files, Carolyn, Bob's >> >>> wife, and I have been in touch fairly regularly. Even before Bob's >> >>> death, she said that she and Bob had discussed it and thought it would >> >>> be best that I come up to their house and "clean out" his garage full >> >>> of files, books, etc. Also, I plan to take a USB drive and download as >> >>> much of his computer files as possible, at least some of which I know >> >>> pertain to Kaw. I'll be happy to distribute whatever I find pertaining >> >>> to other Siouan languages to those of you who want it. I'm hoping to >> >>> go up and do this in the next couple of months, possibly in early June >> >>> or so before it gets too hot. I know Carolyn is thinking about selling >> >>> the house and moving up to be with family in Wisconsin, so this >> >>> cleaning out will have to be done fairly soon anyway. >> >>> >> >>> Anyway, I'll keep everyone posted as plans for these things become more >> >>> concrete. Things are a bit crazy for me right now as I work full-time >> >>> for the Kaw Nation and try to finish my dissertation without yet having >> >>> another committee member to substitute for Bob. I hope to defend in >> >>> May, but I'm still awaiting final word on a new committee member and >> >>> date from my advisor. >> >>> >> >>> Dave >> >>> >> >>> David Kaufman >> >>> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >> >>> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 12:27 PM, ROOD DAVID S >> >>> wrote: >> >>> >> >>>> Hi, everyone, >> >>>> My family schedule for at least part of the summer has finally >> >>>> settled down, and I regret that it precludes me from attending the SCLC >> >>>> again this year. The earliest I could get to Madison would be >> >>>> mid-afternoon on Saturday, hardly the appropriate time for >> >>>> participating in the meeting. >> >>>> >> >>>> I am very much interested in what is decided about honoring Bob >> >>>> Rankin, however, and in what might be done to make his huge >> >>>> contribution to the history of Siouan and the structure of Dhegiah >> >>>> part of a permanent record. I know he has many papers that have never >> >>>> been published, as well as many that are published here and there in >> >>>> places we don't always know about. As early as 1984, at the workshop >> >>>> that launched the Comparative Dictionary project, I proposed a >> >>>> "collection of papers" volume that would be a place for his work (and >> >>>> others), but that has never materialized. Moreover, for the last few >> >>>> years Bob was the major player in the evolution of the >> >>>> Comparative Dictionary. As most of you know, Iren Hartmann at the >> >>>> MPI-Leipzig is working on creating a usable digital verson of the CSD. >> >>>> Of the original 5 participants (John Koontz, Wes Jones, Dick Carter, >> >>>> Rankin and me) in the project, I guess I'm the only one who is still >> >>>> interested and available, so I'm going to work with Iren to see if >> >>>> that can't be finalized and formalized. There is quite a bit of >> >>>> urgency here, because as many of you know, the structure of the MPI in >> >>>> Leipzig will change dramatically in May of 2015, and they will likely >> >>>> no longer be interested in supporting Iren's work. >> >>>> >> >>>> If any of you have any thoughts on how best to move forward >> >>>> with either Bob's legacy or the CSD, please discuss them at >> >>>> the meeting and keep me informed. I don't feel like I know Carolyn >> >>>> well enough to approach her about any of this; perhaps one of you >> >>>> would be willing to help with that. >> >>>> >> >>>> Best wishes to all for a fruitful and fun meeting. >> >>>> >> >>>> David >> >>>> >> >>>> David S. Rood >> >>>> Dept. of Linguistics >> >>>> Univ. of Colorado >> >>>> 295 UCB >> >>>> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >> >>>> USA >> >>>> rood at colorado.edu >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kathleendshea at GMAIL.COM Mon Apr 14 04:33:41 2014 From: kathleendshea at GMAIL.COM (Kathleen D. Shea) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 23:33:41 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Call for Papers: KWPL 35 Message-ID: Sent from my iPad Begin forwarded message: > From: Maria Mart?nez-Garc?a > Date: March 28, 2014 at 1:19:40 PM CDT > To: > Subject: Call for Papers: KWPL 35 > Reply-To: maria.martinezgarcia at ku.edu > > Greetings Linguists, > > We are pleased to announce that KWPL is currently accepting submissions for Volume 35. The deadline for submission is May 25th, 2014. We welcome papers on all topics in the field of linguistics, including phonetics, phonology, morphology, syntax, semantics, language acquisition, psycholinguistics, neurolinguistics, linguistic anthropology, and indigenous languages. > > Papers (with a maximum of 25 pages, single-spaced, and in both doc/tex and pdf formats) should be sent directly to the editors at kwpl at ku.edu. Submissions should also be in accordance with the KWPL Style Sheet (see attached). If you have questions about the submission process, please do not hesitate to send us an email. > > Regards, > > Maite Mart?nez-Garc?a, Longcan Huang, & Philip Duncan > Editors, Kansas Working Papers in Linguistics > http://kuscholarworks.ku.edu/dspace/handle/1808/276 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: KWPL Stylesheet_Jan2013_Revised.doc Type: application/msword Size: 142336 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: KWPL Stylesheet_Jan2013_Revised.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 432789 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jfu at LAKHOTA.ORG Tue Apr 15 06:59:09 2014 From: jfu at LAKHOTA.ORG (Jan Ullrich) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 08:59:09 +0200 Subject: oy=?UTF-8?Q?=C3=A1s=E2=80=99i=C5=8B_and_iy=C3=BAha?= Message-ID: Dear colleagues, For one of my current projects I am working on the description of Lakota quantifiers, among other things, and was wondering if any of you may be able to offer some comparative data on the Siouan terms corresponding to the English quantifier ?all?. Lakota has two quantifiers corresponding to ?all?, they are oy?s?i? and iy?ha. Some of the existing descriptions of these two words suggest that they are not interchangeable, usually stating that one is used with collective and the other with the distributive plural, or that there is a human vs. non-human restriction. However, the existing descriptions actually contradict each other. My analyses of data from available texts doesn?t support the idea that the two words are different in meaning, at least they don?t seem to be in texts recorded between 1850s and 2013. I would like to know if there are known cognates of either one of the two words in other Siouan languages, and if so, whether or not they can shed any light on a difference in meaning that perhaps once existed. I did check the CSD but didn?t find a mention either one of the words. Jan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Tue Apr 15 13:59:23 2014 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 13:59:23 +0000 Subject: oy=?utf-8?Q?=C3=A1s=E2=80=99i=C5=8B_and_iy=C3=BAha?= In-Reply-To: <004701cf5878$33f70420$9be50c60$@org> Message-ID: *Note: The following reply came in from Jonathan Holmes, posting from a Yahoo account. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- As I understand it, "iyuha" is used only when refering to humans, whereas "oyasin" means all of creation. From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jan Ullrich Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 1:59 AM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: oy?s?i? and iy?ha Dear colleagues, For one of my current projects I am working on the description of Lakota quantifiers, among other things, and was wondering if any of you may be able to offer some comparative data on the Siouan terms corresponding to the English quantifier ?all?. Lakota has two quantifiers corresponding to ?all?, they are oy?s?i? and iy?ha. Some of the existing descriptions of these two words suggest that they are not interchangeable, usually stating that one is used with collective and the other with the distributive plural, or that there is a human vs. non-human restriction. However, the existing descriptions actually contradict each other. My analyses of data from available texts doesn?t support the idea that the two words are different in meaning, at least they don?t seem to be in texts recorded between 1850s and 2013. I would like to know if there are known cognates of either one of the two words in other Siouan languages, and if so, whether or not they can shed any light on a difference in meaning that perhaps once existed. I did check the CSD but didn?t find a mention either one of the words. Jan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jfu at LAKHOTA.ORG Tue Apr 15 14:14:00 2014 From: jfu at LAKHOTA.ORG (Jan Ullrich) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 16:14:00 +0200 Subject: oy=?UTF-8?Q?=C3=A1s=E2=80=99i=C5=8B_and_iy=C3=BAha?= In-Reply-To: <712f69dc35e647e7bdd5929b35653f1e@DM2PR08MB525.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: > Jonathan Holmes wrote: > As I understand it, "iyuha" is used only when refering to humans, whereas "oyasin" means all of creation. Thank you Jonathan. Yes, this is one of the existing definitions that I am aware of, but it is contradicted by data from texts. In the text corpus neither iy?ha nor oy?s?i? are restricted the way suggested above. Both words can be found with human, non-human, animate and inanimate topics, and they both occur with collective and distributive plurals. This is consistent in texts recorded between 1830?s and 2013. So I was wondering if cognates from other Siouan languages may shed some new light on the two words. Jan From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jan Ullrich Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 1:59 AM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: oy?s?i? and iy?ha Dear colleagues, For one of my current projects I am working on the description of Lakota quantifiers, among other things, and was wondering if any of you may be able to offer some comparative data on the Siouan terms corresponding to the English quantifier ?all?. Lakota has two quantifiers corresponding to ?all?, they are oy?s?i? and iy?ha. Some of the existing descriptions of these two words suggest that they are not interchangeable, usually stating that one is used with collective and the other with the distributive plural, or that there is a human vs. non-human restriction. However, the existing descriptions actually contradict each other. My analyses of data from available texts doesn?t support the idea that the two words are different in meaning, at least they don?t seem to be in texts recorded between 1850s and 2013. I would like to know if there are known cognates of either one of the two words in other Siouan languages, and if so, whether or not they can shed any light on a difference in meaning that perhaps once existed. I did check the CSD but didn?t find a mention either one of the words. Jan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Tue Apr 15 23:58:54 2014 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 23:58:54 +0000 Subject: oy=?utf-8?Q?=C3=A1s=E2=80=99i=C5=8B_and_iy=C3=BAha?= In-Reply-To: <00d901cf58b4$f3e03b30$dba0b190$@org> Message-ID: Jan, we have about two or three ?all? words in Omaha, but none seem to be cognate to either of your two words. They seem interesting enough to mention though. bruga ? ?all?, or ?round?, like a circle. This seems to suggest ?the whole (round) camp of people?. Distributive ?all?, for animate or inanimate. gruba ? ?all?, or ?all of it?. This is one of about three Omaha word pairs we have found in which the consonants br-g- are reshuffled to gr-b- to give a different shade of meaning. Collective ?all?, for inanimate only. Arguably, the other two such pairs also distinguish distributive br-g- from collective gr-b- the same way, though that?s a little less certain. w??gire ? ?everybody?. I think this is only for people, and it is very often used to suggest ?we?, though it can be used for third person as well. Impressionistically, I have the feeling that it became more popular in the 20th century, while bruga was used more commonly in the 19th. Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jan Ullrich Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 9:14 AM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: oy?s?i? and iy?ha > Jonathan Holmes wrote: > As I understand it, "iyuha" is used only when refering to humans, whereas "oyasin" means all of creation. Thank you Jonathan. Yes, this is one of the existing definitions that I am aware of, but it is contradicted by data from texts. In the text corpus neither iy?ha nor oy?s?i? are restricted the way suggested above. Both words can be found with human, non-human, animate and inanimate topics, and they both occur with collective and distributive plurals. This is consistent in texts recorded between 1830?s and 2013. So I was wondering if cognates from other Siouan languages may shed some new light on the two words. Jan From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jan Ullrich Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 1:59 AM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: oy?s?i? and iy?ha Dear colleagues, For one of my current projects I am working on the description of Lakota quantifiers, among other things, and was wondering if any of you may be able to offer some comparative data on the Siouan terms corresponding to the English quantifier ?all?. Lakota has two quantifiers corresponding to ?all?, they are oy?s?i? and iy?ha. Some of the existing descriptions of these two words suggest that they are not interchangeable, usually stating that one is used with collective and the other with the distributive plural, or that there is a human vs. non-human restriction. However, the existing descriptions actually contradict each other. My analyses of data from available texts doesn?t support the idea that the two words are different in meaning, at least they don?t seem to be in texts recorded between 1850s and 2013. I would like to know if there are known cognates of either one of the two words in other Siouan languages, and if so, whether or not they can shed any light on a difference in meaning that perhaps once existed. I did check the CSD but didn?t find a mention either one of the words. Jan -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From majohnson25 at WISC.EDU Wed Apr 16 00:24:31 2014 From: majohnson25 at WISC.EDU (Meredith Johnson) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 19:24:31 -0500 Subject: conference hotel and t-shirts Message-ID: Dear all, I just have a couple of quick notes about the fast-approaching SCLC 34. First, as a reminder, we have set up a hotel in Madison with a reduced rate for the conference. The hotel is located about 10 minutes from the conference venue, and the rate is $118 per night. We want to you all to know that this reduced rate is only available until a week from today, April 22nd. Here is a link to book a room at the hotel at this rate: http://hamptoninn.hilton.com/en/hp/groups/personalized/M/MSNBJHX-ALC-20140522/index.jhtml. If you have any questions or concerns about the accommodations in Madison, please let us know. And second, we are going to be ordering T-shirts for this year's conference. Please see attached for a black and white image of the t-shirt design. In order to be able to place an order, we need to know how many to order and preferred sizes. We don't know the exact price yet because that will depend on how many tees are ordered, but it would be between $11-15. The more t-shirts we order, the cheaper the price! So, if you would like a t-shirt, please email me at majohnson25 at wisc.edu with your preferred size. We will let you know what the final cost is, and you can pay on site. Lastly, the schedule will be out shortly! We are just waiting for confirmation of one more talk. As always, let us know if you have any questions. Best, Meredith -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Siouan Confrence logo black and white.jpeg Type: image/jpg Size: 14897 bytes Desc: not available URL: From george.wilmes at GMAIL.COM Wed Apr 16 01:37:56 2014 From: george.wilmes at GMAIL.COM (George Wilmes) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 20:37:56 -0500 Subject: oy=?UTF-8?Q?=C3=A1s=E2=80=99i=C5=8B_and_iy=C3=BAha?= In-Reply-To: <004701cf5878$33f70420$9be50c60$@org> Message-ID: Kennard?s Mandan texts have more than a dozen occurrences of ?ik??:ha?. (In case the Unicode character doesn?t come through in this email, that?s ?ikuha? with a nasalized, accented, long ?u?.) Kennard usually glossed it as ?all over? (in the sense of ?everywhere?, as in ?all over the earth?, ?all over his body?, etc.) but also once as ?whole? (as in ?the whole day?). So it seems to have the sense of representing an entirety. Might that be related to ?iy?ha?? I haven't yet noticed anything like "oy?s?i?". On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 1:59 AM, Jan Ullrich wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > > > For one of my current projects I am working on the description of Lakota > quantifiers, among other things, and was wondering if any of you may be > able to offer some comparative data on the Siouan terms corresponding to > the English quantifier ?all?. > > > > > > Lakota has two quantifiers corresponding to ?all?, they are oy?s?i? and > iy?ha. Some of the existing descriptions of these two words suggest that > they are not interchangeable, usually stating that one is used with > collective and the other with the distributive plural, or that there is a > human vs. non-human restriction. However, the existing descriptions > actually contradict each other. > > > > My analyses of data from available texts doesn?t support the idea that the > two words are different in meaning, at least they don?t seem to be in texts > recorded between 1850s and 2013. > > > > I would like to know if there are known cognates of either one of the two > words in other Siouan languages, and if so, whether or not they can shed > any light on a difference in meaning that perhaps once existed. I did check > the CSD but didn?t find a mention either one of the words. > > > > Jan > > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From majohnson25 at WISC.EDU Wed Apr 16 17:24:21 2014 From: majohnson25 at WISC.EDU (Meredith Johnson) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 12:24:21 -0500 Subject: SCLC 34 schedule Message-ID: Dear Siouanists, Please find attached the preliminary schedule for the upcoming Siouan conference. We hope to have more information about the conference dinner for you soon. We will also be posting the schedule to the conference website (https://sites.google.com/site/34sclc/), and we will also post all the abstracts for the talks shortly. As always, let us know if you have any questions. We are looking forward to seeing you in Madison soon! All the best, Meredith -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SCLC 34 schedule.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 37403 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Wed Apr 16 18:50:16 2014 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM (Sky Campbell) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 13:50:16 -0500 Subject: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Message-ID: I've had a name from an old Otoe treaty (1817) that has always puzzled me. The name is: Wathapayignet - the Small Bear There is no m?nje (bear/black bear) or m?nto (grizzly bear) terms to be found in there. The "small" part is easy enough to pull out of there (yignet = -inye). Then the thought struck me about the Ponca term for bear (wasabe) and how the Ponca "s" can sometimes be the Otoe "th" in cognate terms. This gives me "wathabe" as the term for bear. Now before I run with this, does anyone have anything to back this up? It certainly makes sense and the pieces fit. But I have never seen "wathabe" anywhere as an Otoe word for bear. But if I am right, this would give me: Wathabeinye - Small Bear If I am correct, then I'm thinking that this is an extremely old term. Anyone else come across this before? Sky -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Wed Apr 16 20:43:29 2014 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 20:43:29 +0000 Subject: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" In-Reply-To: <000001cf59a4$b6dbf210$2493d630$@com> Message-ID: Sky, The wasabe term is not just Ponca; it?s Omaha, Kaw and (as wasape) Osage as well. I assume it?s common Dhegiha. It refers to the black bear, as opposed to the m?nto-equivalent term for ?grizzly bear?. I?m sure you?re entirely right that the ?Wathapay? part of that name is an Otoe equivalent of Dhegiha *wasape. It looks like the ?ignet? must have been written by a Frenchman; it kind of threw me a little at first. :) Anyway, if the *wasape term was not known from Otoe before, that?s a great catch! So it looks like you have three terms for ?bear??? Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 1:50 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" I've had a name from an old Otoe treaty (1817) that has always puzzled me. The name is: Wathapayignet - the Small Bear There is no m?nje (bear/black bear) or m?nto (grizzly bear) terms to be found in there. The "small" part is easy enough to pull out of there (yignet = -inye). Then the thought struck me about the Ponca term for bear (wasabe) and how the Ponca "s" can sometimes be the Otoe "th" in cognate terms. This gives me "wathabe" as the term for bear. Now before I run with this, does anyone have anything to back this up? It certainly makes sense and the pieces fit. But I have never seen "wathabe" anywhere as an Otoe word for bear. But if I am right, this would give me: Wathabeinye - Small Bear If I am correct, then I'm thinking that this is an extremely old term. Anyone else come across this before? Sky -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Wed Apr 16 20:52:06 2014 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Greer, Jill) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 20:52:06 +0000 Subject: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" In-Reply-To: <5c9b0ab0e72d4510bcb959ab33fabe6f@DM2PR08MB525.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Sky and Rory, Great posts - one thing to consider also is that it?s actually not an Otoe word per se. It?s possible for entire names to have been borrowed across tribes (or bestowed, think of the intertribal peace-making child adoption tradition of the Pipe Dance (Calumet in some soures), with the Beloved Child (it could be a girl or a boy) undergoing an elaborate ceremony. People might have multiple names (family kin name, clan name, later a name from an accomplishment, plus nicknames [?uncle names?]. Is there a similar name in Dhegiha groups? Best, Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:43 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Sky, The wasabe term is not just Ponca; it?s Omaha, Kaw and (as wasape) Osage as well. I assume it?s common Dhegiha. It refers to the black bear, as opposed to the m?nto-equivalent term for ?grizzly bear?. I?m sure you?re entirely right that the ?Wathapay? part of that name is an Otoe equivalent of Dhegiha *wasape. It looks like the ?ignet? must have been written by a Frenchman; it kind of threw me a little at first. :) Anyway, if the *wasape term was not known from Otoe before, that?s a great catch! So it looks like you have three terms for ?bear??? Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 1:50 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" I've had a name from an old Otoe treaty (1817) that has always puzzled me. The name is: Wathapayignet - the Small Bear There is no m?nje (bear/black bear) or m?nto (grizzly bear) terms to be found in there. The "small" part is easy enough to pull out of there (yignet = -inye). Then the thought struck me about the Ponca term for bear (wasabe) and how the Ponca "s" can sometimes be the Otoe "th" in cognate terms. This gives me "wathabe" as the term for bear. Now before I run with this, does anyone have anything to back this up? It certainly makes sense and the pieces fit. But I have never seen "wathabe" anywhere as an Otoe word for bear. But if I am right, this would give me: Wathabeinye - Small Bear If I am correct, then I'm thinking that this is an extremely old term. Anyone else come across this before? Sky -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG Wed Apr 16 21:01:29 2014 From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 16:01:29 -0500 Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Message-ID: Rory, Yea, that ending threw me off too :). Jill, I'd thought of that as well. What has me thinking it is still an Otoe word is the use of "th.". I figure if it were Dhegiha in origin then the s would have been used. But it may also be possible that Dhegiha has a "th version" of wasabe somewhere which is why I wanted to check with you guys. Of course there might be other variables/factors at play here that I am not aware of so I'm open to suggestions :). Sky Campbell Language Director Otoe-Missouria Language Department (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org ________________________________ From: Greer, Jill Sent: ?4/?16/?2014 3:52 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Sky and Rory, Great posts - one thing to consider also is that it?s actually not an Otoe word per se. It?s possible for entire names to have been borrowed across tribes (or bestowed, think of the intertribal peace-making child adoption tradition of the Pipe Dance (Calumet in some soures), with the Beloved Child (it could be a girl or a boy) undergoing an elaborate ceremony. People might have multiple names (family kin name, clan name, later a name from an accomplishment, plus nicknames [?uncle names?]. Is there a similar name in Dhegiha groups? Best, Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:43 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Sky, The wasabe term is not just Ponca; it?s Omaha, Kaw and (as wasape) Osage as well. I assume it?s common Dhegiha. It refers to the black bear, as opposed to the m?nto-equivalent term for ?grizzly bear?. I?m sure you?re entirely right that the ?Wathapay? part of that name is an Otoe equivalent of Dhegiha *wasape. It looks like the ?ignet? must have been written by a Frenchman; it kind of threw me a little at first. :) Anyway, if the *wasape term was not known from Otoe before, that?s a great catch! So it looks like you have three terms for ?bear??? Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 1:50 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" I've had a name from an old Otoe treaty (1817) that has always puzzled me. The name is: Wathapayignet - the Small Bear There is no m?nje (bear/black bear) or m?nto (grizzly bear) terms to be found in there. The "small" part is easy enough to pull out of there (yignet = -inye). Then the thought struck me about the Ponca term for bear (wasabe) and how the Ponca "s" can sometimes be the Otoe "th" in cognate terms. This gives me "wathabe" as the term for bear. Now before I run with this, does anyone have anything to back this up? It certainly makes sense and the pieces fit. But I have never seen "wathabe" anywhere as an Otoe word for bear. But if I am right, this would give me: Wathabeinye - Small Bear If I am correct, then I'm thinking that this is an extremely old term. Anyone else come across this before? Sky -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG Wed Apr 16 21:06:09 2014 From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 16:06:09 -0500 Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Message-ID: And another reason that I think it might be an Otoe word is the use of the Jiwere "-inye" suffix for small. But I'm sure it wouldn't be unreasonable to consider the idea that a name could consist of an Otoe suffix tacked onto a non-Otoe word. Sky Campbell Language Director Otoe-Missouria Language Department (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org ________________________________ From: Greer, Jill Sent: ?4/?16/?2014 3:52 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Sky and Rory, Great posts - one thing to consider also is that it?s actually not an Otoe word per se. It?s possible for entire names to have been borrowed across tribes (or bestowed, think of the intertribal peace-making child adoption tradition of the Pipe Dance (Calumet in some soures), with the Beloved Child (it could be a girl or a boy) undergoing an elaborate ceremony. People might have multiple names (family kin name, clan name, later a name from an accomplishment, plus nicknames [?uncle names?]. Is there a similar name in Dhegiha groups? Best, Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:43 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Sky, The wasabe term is not just Ponca; it?s Omaha, Kaw and (as wasape) Osage as well. I assume it?s common Dhegiha. It refers to the black bear, as opposed to the m?nto-equivalent term for ?grizzly bear?. I?m sure you?re entirely right that the ?Wathapay? part of that name is an Otoe equivalent of Dhegiha *wasape. It looks like the ?ignet? must have been written by a Frenchman; it kind of threw me a little at first. :) Anyway, if the *wasape term was not known from Otoe before, that?s a great catch! So it looks like you have three terms for ?bear??? Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 1:50 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" I've had a name from an old Otoe treaty (1817) that has always puzzled me. The name is: Wathapayignet - the Small Bear There is no m?nje (bear/black bear) or m?nto (grizzly bear) terms to be found in there. The "small" part is easy enough to pull out of there (yignet = -inye). Then the thought struck me about the Ponca term for bear (wasabe) and how the Ponca "s" can sometimes be the Otoe "th" in cognate terms. This gives me "wathabe" as the term for bear. Now before I run with this, does anyone have anything to back this up? It certainly makes sense and the pieces fit. But I have never seen "wathabe" anywhere as an Otoe word for bear. But if I am right, this would give me: Wathabeinye - Small Bear If I am correct, then I'm thinking that this is an extremely old term. Anyone else come across this before? Sky -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Wed Apr 16 21:11:35 2014 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 21:11:35 +0000 Subject: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" In-Reply-To: <30408ed1f36d41f3a4b29c2df4a8fdc1@BLUPR04MB819.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: That?s a very good point, Jill, and well taken. Yes, there is an equivalent name, at least in the Thatada clan, which is Wasabe-zhi?ga. If the term Sky found is a borrowing, it shows that understanding between the two groups at the time was good enough to cause Dhegiha ?s? to shift forward to Otoe ?th?, and for the Dhegiha ?small? term (zhi?ga) to be replaced by Otoe i?e, as Sky has just noted. But I think either of those are quite possible and likely, so we might want more evidence from Otoe before we conclude that this ?bear? term was generally used in Otoe. Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:52 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Sky and Rory, Great posts - one thing to consider also is that it?s actually not an Otoe word per se. It?s possible for entire names to have been borrowed across tribes (or bestowed, think of the intertribal peace-making child adoption tradition of the Pipe Dance (Calumet in some soures), with the Beloved Child (it could be a girl or a boy) undergoing an elaborate ceremony. People might have multiple names (family kin name, clan name, later a name from an accomplishment, plus nicknames [?uncle names?]. Is there a similar name in Dhegiha groups? Best, Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:43 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Sky, The wasabe term is not just Ponca; it?s Omaha, Kaw and (as wasape) Osage as well. I assume it?s common Dhegiha. It refers to the black bear, as opposed to the m?nto-equivalent term for ?grizzly bear?. I?m sure you?re entirely right that the ?Wathapay? part of that name is an Otoe equivalent of Dhegiha *wasape. It looks like the ?ignet? must have been written by a Frenchman; it kind of threw me a little at first. :) Anyway, if the *wasape term was not known from Otoe before, that?s a great catch! So it looks like you have three terms for ?bear??? Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 1:50 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" I've had a name from an old Otoe treaty (1817) that has always puzzled me. The name is: Wathapayignet - the Small Bear There is no m?nje (bear/black bear) or m?nto (grizzly bear) terms to be found in there. The "small" part is easy enough to pull out of there (yignet = -inye). Then the thought struck me about the Ponca term for bear (wasabe) and how the Ponca "s" can sometimes be the Otoe "th" in cognate terms. This gives me "wathabe" as the term for bear. Now before I run with this, does anyone have anything to back this up? It certainly makes sense and the pieces fit. But I have never seen "wathabe" anywhere as an Otoe word for bear. But if I am right, this would give me: Wathabeinye - Small Bear If I am correct, then I'm thinking that this is an extremely old term. Anyone else come across this before? Sky -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Wed Apr 16 21:21:36 2014 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Greer, Jill) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 21:21:36 +0000 Subject: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" In-Reply-To: <1f25266dbf9940f681e64701ea6ca8c0@DM2PR08MB525.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Good point Sky - Of course, there could be lots of alternative words for many things that we just don?t have examples, so this is exciting. Names are always fascinating. I must be getting hunger this afternoon, because Wasabi is a Japanese restaurant in town here, and the thought of wonderful hot horseradish came to my mind when your Otoe word was on the screen? ? Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:12 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" That?s a very good point, Jill, and well taken. Yes, there is an equivalent name, at least in the Thatada clan, which is Wasabe-zhi?ga. If the term Sky found is a borrowing, it shows that understanding between the two groups at the time was good enough to cause Dhegiha ?s? to shift forward to Otoe ?th?, and for the Dhegiha ?small? term (zhi?ga) to be replaced by Otoe i?e, as Sky has just noted. But I think either of those are quite possible and likely, so we might want more evidence from Otoe before we conclude that this ?bear? term was generally used in Otoe. Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:52 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Sky and Rory, Great posts - one thing to consider also is that it?s actually not an Otoe word per se. It?s possible for entire names to have been borrowed across tribes (or bestowed, think of the intertribal peace-making child adoption tradition of the Pipe Dance (Calumet in some soures), with the Beloved Child (it could be a girl or a boy) undergoing an elaborate ceremony. People might have multiple names (family kin name, clan name, later a name from an accomplishment, plus nicknames [?uncle names?]. Is there a similar name in Dhegiha groups? Best, Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:43 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Sky, The wasabe term is not just Ponca; it?s Omaha, Kaw and (as wasape) Osage as well. I assume it?s common Dhegiha. It refers to the black bear, as opposed to the m?nto-equivalent term for ?grizzly bear?. I?m sure you?re entirely right that the ?Wathapay? part of that name is an Otoe equivalent of Dhegiha *wasape. It looks like the ?ignet? must have been written by a Frenchman; it kind of threw me a little at first. :) Anyway, if the *wasape term was not known from Otoe before, that?s a great catch! So it looks like you have three terms for ?bear??? Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 1:50 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" I've had a name from an old Otoe treaty (1817) that has always puzzled me. The name is: Wathapayignet - the Small Bear There is no m?nje (bear/black bear) or m?nto (grizzly bear) terms to be found in there. The "small" part is easy enough to pull out of there (yignet = -inye). Then the thought struck me about the Ponca term for bear (wasabe) and how the Ponca "s" can sometimes be the Otoe "th" in cognate terms. This gives me "wathabe" as the term for bear. Now before I run with this, does anyone have anything to back this up? It certainly makes sense and the pieces fit. But I have never seen "wathabe" anywhere as an Otoe word for bear. But if I am right, this would give me: Wathabeinye - Small Bear If I am correct, then I'm thinking that this is an extremely old term. Anyone else come across this before? Sky -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Wed Apr 16 21:27:28 2014 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Greer, Jill) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 21:27:28 +0000 Subject: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" In-Reply-To: <7fe41dc063794342a9f6d29cde8a669c@BLUPR04MB819.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Whoops - I meant Dhegiha there. Sorry all! Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:22 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Good point Sky - Of course, there could be lots of alternative words for many things that we just don?t have examples, so this is exciting. Names are always fascinating. I must be getting hunger this afternoon, because Wasabi is a Japanese restaurant in town here, and the thought of wonderful hot horseradish came to my mind when your Otoe word was on the screen? ? Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:12 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" That?s a very good point, Jill, and well taken. Yes, there is an equivalent name, at least in the Thatada clan, which is Wasabe-zhi?ga. If the term Sky found is a borrowing, it shows that understanding between the two groups at the time was good enough to cause Dhegiha ?s? to shift forward to Otoe ?th?, and for the Dhegiha ?small? term (zhi?ga) to be replaced by Otoe i?e, as Sky has just noted. But I think either of those are quite possible and likely, so we might want more evidence from Otoe before we conclude that this ?bear? term was generally used in Otoe. Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:52 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Sky and Rory, Great posts - one thing to consider also is that it?s actually not an Otoe word per se. It?s possible for entire names to have been borrowed across tribes (or bestowed, think of the intertribal peace-making child adoption tradition of the Pipe Dance (Calumet in some soures), with the Beloved Child (it could be a girl or a boy) undergoing an elaborate ceremony. People might have multiple names (family kin name, clan name, later a name from an accomplishment, plus nicknames [?uncle names?]. Is there a similar name in Dhegiha groups? Best, Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:43 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Sky, The wasabe term is not just Ponca; it?s Omaha, Kaw and (as wasape) Osage as well. I assume it?s common Dhegiha. It refers to the black bear, as opposed to the m?nto-equivalent term for ?grizzly bear?. I?m sure you?re entirely right that the ?Wathapay? part of that name is an Otoe equivalent of Dhegiha *wasape. It looks like the ?ignet? must have been written by a Frenchman; it kind of threw me a little at first. :) Anyway, if the *wasape term was not known from Otoe before, that?s a great catch! So it looks like you have three terms for ?bear??? Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 1:50 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" I've had a name from an old Otoe treaty (1817) that has always puzzled me. The name is: Wathapayignet - the Small Bear There is no m?nje (bear/black bear) or m?nto (grizzly bear) terms to be found in there. The "small" part is easy enough to pull out of there (yignet = -inye). Then the thought struck me about the Ponca term for bear (wasabe) and how the Ponca "s" can sometimes be the Otoe "th" in cognate terms. This gives me "wathabe" as the term for bear. Now before I run with this, does anyone have anything to back this up? It certainly makes sense and the pieces fit. But I have never seen "wathabe" anywhere as an Otoe word for bear. But if I am right, this would give me: Wathabeinye - Small Bear If I am correct, then I'm thinking that this is an extremely old term. Anyone else come across this before? Sky -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Thu Apr 17 20:00:09 2014 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM (Sky Campbell) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2014 15:00:09 -0500 Subject: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Found this in the next treaty (1825) while trying to figure out yet another name LOL. Waw-zob-e-ing-ge And once I saw it, I remembered seeing it before. Now I have a shift from "th" to "z" in a span of 8 years and it has me questioning if "ignet" was actually supposed to represent -inye or -inge. If the first one was in face -inye then here you have another shift to -inge. Presumably this same individual was there to pronounce his name for whoever was writing it down. And if so, he changed 1 (and maybe 2) part of his name. A number of scenarios come to mind for the change (perhaps another one of the signers pronounced it for him) but it would still be nice to get this sorted out :). Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:27 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Whoops - I meant Dhegiha there. Sorry all! Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:22 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Good point Sky - Of course, there could be lots of alternative words for many things that we just don?t have examples, so this is exciting. Names are always fascinating. I must be getting hunger this afternoon, because Wasabi is a Japanese restaurant in town here, and the thought of wonderful hot horseradish came to my mind when your Otoe word was on the screen? J Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:12 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" That?s a very good point, Jill, and well taken. Yes, there is an equivalent name, at least in the Thatada clan, which is Wasabe-zhi?ga. If the term Sky found is a borrowing, it shows that understanding between the two groups at the time was good enough to cause Dhegiha ?s? to shift forward to Otoe ?th?, and for the Dhegiha ?small? term (zhi?ga) to be replaced by Otoe i?e, as Sky has just noted. But I think either of those are quite possible and likely, so we might want more evidence from Otoe before we conclude that this ?bear? term was generally used in Otoe. Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:52 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Sky and Rory, Great posts - one thing to consider also is that it?s actually not an Otoe word per se. It?s possible for entire names to have been borrowed across tribes (or bestowed, think of the intertribal peace-making child adoption tradition of the Pipe Dance (Calumet in some soures), with the Beloved Child (it could be a girl or a boy) undergoing an elaborate ceremony. People might have multiple names (family kin name, clan name, later a name from an accomplishment, plus nicknames [?uncle names?]. Is there a similar name in Dhegiha groups? Best, Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:43 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Sky, The wasabe term is not just Ponca; it?s Omaha, Kaw and (as wasape) Osage as well. I assume it?s common Dhegiha. It refers to the black bear, as opposed to the m?nto-equivalent term for ?grizzly bear?. I?m sure you?re entirely right that the ?Wathapay? part of that name is an Otoe equivalent of Dhegiha *wasape. It looks like the ?ignet? must have been written by a Frenchman; it kind of threw me a little at first. :) Anyway, if the *wasape term was not known from Otoe before, that?s a great catch! So it looks like you have three terms for ?bear??? Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 1:50 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" I've had a name from an old Otoe treaty (1817) that has always puzzled me. The name is: Wathapayignet - the Small Bear There is no m?nje (bear/black bear) or m?nto (grizzly bear) terms to be found in there. The "small" part is easy enough to pull out of there (yignet = -inye). Then the thought struck me about the Ponca term for bear (wasabe) and how the Ponca "s" can sometimes be the Otoe "th" in cognate terms. This gives me "wathabe" as the term for bear. Now before I run with this, does anyone have anything to back this up? It certainly makes sense and the pieces fit. But I have never seen "wathabe" anywhere as an Otoe word for bear. But if I am right, this would give me: Wathabeinye - Small Bear If I am correct, then I'm thinking that this is an extremely old term. Anyone else come across this before? Sky -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgoodtracks at gmail.com Fri Apr 18 12:49:33 2014 From: jgoodtracks at gmail.com (Jimm GoodTracks) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2014 06:49:33 -0600 Subject: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" In-Reply-To: <30408ed1f36d41f3a4b29c2df4a8fdc1@BLUPR04MB819.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Of all the possibilities considered thus far with this Dhegiha name being also an Otoe term, Jill?statement of a possible borrowing as a bestowal- name as a gift, would be my leaning in this instance. I am aware of one Iowa Elder whose clan name was actually Omaha - as he was part Omaha. On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 2:52 PM, Greer, Jill wrote: > Sky and Rory, > > Great posts - one thing to consider also is that it?s actually not an > Otoe word per se. It?s possible for entire names to have been borrowed > across tribes (or bestowed, think of the intertribal peace-making child > adoption tradition of the Pipe Dance (Calumet in some soures), with the > Beloved Child (it could be a girl or a boy) undergoing an elaborate > ceremony. People might have multiple names (family kin name, clan name, > later a name from an accomplishment, plus nicknames [?uncle names?]. Is > there a similar name in Dhegiha groups? > > > > Best, > > Jill > > > > > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of > *Rory Larson > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:43 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" > > > > Sky, > > > > The *wasabe* term is not just Ponca; it?s Omaha, Kaw and (as *wasape*) > Osage as well. I assume it?s common Dhegiha. It refers to the black bear, > as opposed to the *m?nto*-equivalent term for ?grizzly bear?. I?m sure > you?re entirely right that the ?Wathapay? part of that name is an Otoe > equivalent of Dhegiha **wasape*. It looks like the ?ignet? must have > been written by a Frenchman; it kind of threw me a little at first. :) > > > > Anyway, if the **wasape* term was not known from Otoe before, that?s a > great catch! So it looks like you have three terms for ?bear??? > > > > Best, > > Rory > > > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] > *On Behalf Of *Sky Campbell > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 16, 2014 1:50 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU > *Subject:* Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" > > > > I've had a name from an old Otoe treaty (1817) that has always puzzled > me. The name is: > > > > Wathapayignet - the Small Bear > > > > There is no *m?nje* (bear/black bear) or *m?nto* (grizzly bear) terms to > be found in there. The "small" part is easy enough to pull out of there > (yignet = -inye). Then the thought struck me about the Ponca term for bear > (wasabe) and how the Ponca "s" can sometimes be the Otoe "th" in cognate > terms. This gives me "wathabe" as the term for bear. Now before I run > with this, does anyone have anything to back this up? It certainly makes > sense and the pieces fit. But I have never seen "wathabe" anywhere as an > Otoe word for bear. But if I am right, this would give me: > > > > Wathabeinye - Small Bear > > > > If I am correct, then I'm thinking that this is an *extremely* old term. > > > > Anyone else come across this before? > > > > Sky > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's > DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from > Yahoo.com > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's > DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from > Yahoo.com > > > This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject > to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for > the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended > recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of > the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by > law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please > notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's > DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from > Yahoo.com > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Fri Apr 18 18:17:43 2014 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Greer, Jill) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2014 18:17:43 +0000 Subject: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" In-Reply-To: <002d01cf5a77$a3f5b270$ebe11750$@com> Message-ID: Interesting! Remember that as people like the American dialectologist William Labov taught us, if there are variations in how to pronounce something within a language, it?s rarely the case that anyone uses only one variation always, and the other group only uses the alternate. And the social context can subtly affect which one is chosen, even below the conscious level of the speaker. So, New York City speakers from a working class neighborhood might use the classic ?r? dropping X percent of the time, say 65% (John Boyle can probably remember this exactly), while middle class folks might only ?drop their [r]? 30%, and upper class folks might only have it 5% of the time, just as an example. It always seemed to me since so many Otoe-Missouria had Ioway kin (and vice versa) that an absolute 100% consistency in using the alternate forms (like the inye vs. inge example here) would be very unlikely. So beyond the possible differences in the persons? hearing and transcription, it might have been perfectly acceptable to pronounce the name both ways, at the same point in time. (In this part of SW Missouri, Sky, your last name would traditionally be said more like the desert animal, Camel ?; we had dear neighbors who I knew only by hearing their names spoken, and was surprised to find out later that the spelling had not one but two ?silent letters?). Then a new girl of the same surname came to school, and she pronounced it Cam-bell, (still the silent p), so I added that variation for her name, but that didn?t change the way I addressed the older folks at church.... Best, Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 3:00 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Found this in the next treaty (1825) while trying to figure out yet another name LOL. Waw-zob-e-ing-ge And once I saw it, I remembered seeing it before. Now I have a shift from "th" to "z" in a span of 8 years and it has me questioning if "ignet" was actually supposed to represent -inye or -inge. If the first one was in face -inye then here you have another shift to -inge. Presumably this same individual was there to pronounce his name for whoever was writing it down. And if so, he changed 1 (and maybe 2) part of his name. A number of scenarios come to mind for the change (perhaps another one of the signers pronounced it for him) but it would still be nice to get this sorted out :). Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:27 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Whoops - I meant Dhegiha there. Sorry all! Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:22 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Good point Sky - Of course, there could be lots of alternative words for many things that we just don?t have examples, so this is exciting. Names are always fascinating. I must be getting hunger this afternoon, because Wasabi is a Japanese restaurant in town here, and the thought of wonderful hot horseradish came to my mind when your Otoe word was on the screen? ? Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:12 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" That?s a very good point, Jill, and well taken. Yes, there is an equivalent name, at least in the Thatada clan, which is Wasabe-zhi?ga. If the term Sky found is a borrowing, it shows that understanding between the two groups at the time was good enough to cause Dhegiha ?s? to shift forward to Otoe ?th?, and for the Dhegiha ?small? term (zhi?ga) to be replaced by Otoe i?e, as Sky has just noted. But I think either of those are quite possible and likely, so we might want more evidence from Otoe before we conclude that this ?bear? term was generally used in Otoe. Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:52 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Sky and Rory, Great posts - one thing to consider also is that it?s actually not an Otoe word per se. It?s possible for entire names to have been borrowed across tribes (or bestowed, think of the intertribal peace-making child adoption tradition of the Pipe Dance (Calumet in some soures), with the Beloved Child (it could be a girl or a boy) undergoing an elaborate ceremony. People might have multiple names (family kin name, clan name, later a name from an accomplishment, plus nicknames [?uncle names?]. Is there a similar name in Dhegiha groups? Best, Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:43 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Sky, The wasabe term is not just Ponca; it?s Omaha, Kaw and (as wasape) Osage as well. I assume it?s common Dhegiha. It refers to the black bear, as opposed to the m?nto-equivalent term for ?grizzly bear?. I?m sure you?re entirely right that the ?Wathapay? part of that name is an Otoe equivalent of Dhegiha *wasape. It looks like the ?ignet? must have been written by a Frenchman; it kind of threw me a little at first. :) Anyway, if the *wasape term was not known from Otoe before, that?s a great catch! So it looks like you have three terms for ?bear??? Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 1:50 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" I've had a name from an old Otoe treaty (1817) that has always puzzled me. The name is: Wathapayignet - the Small Bear There is no m?nje (bear/black bear) or m?nto (grizzly bear) terms to be found in there. The "small" part is easy enough to pull out of there (yignet = -inye). Then the thought struck me about the Ponca term for bear (wasabe) and how the Ponca "s" can sometimes be the Otoe "th" in cognate terms. This gives me "wathabe" as the term for bear. Now before I run with this, does anyone have anything to back this up? It certainly makes sense and the pieces fit. But I have never seen "wathabe" anywhere as an Otoe word for bear. But if I am right, this would give me: Wathabeinye - Small Bear If I am correct, then I'm thinking that this is an extremely old term. Anyone else come across this before? Sky -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Fri Apr 18 23:02:28 2014 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM (Sky Campbell) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2014 18:02:28 -0500 Subject: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" In-Reply-To: <975c97ced6454aff875d47b927664461@BLUPR04MB819.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Jimm, Very true...I've also seen a handful of names referring to other tribes (Ioway, Pawnee, Pottawatomie, Omaha, etc.). It makes me curious about if this person were from another tribe (at least in part), what the scenario was that allowed them to inherit and/or rise through the ranks to become someone important enough to sign a treaty. Jill, I know what you mean. I've considered the possibility of using variations. I know we only met briefly at Breath of Life last year so I don't know how much of my West Virginia accent/slang came out for you to hear but I do know that it does emerge from time to time (much to my wife's amusement when I say something like "I ain't eat yet" :) ). It's been years since I've lived there but those remnants still bubble to the surface. I think people are often flabbergasted when they find out that I work with languages LOL. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 1:18 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Interesting! Remember that as people like the American dialectologist William Labov taught us, if there are variations in how to pronounce something within a language, it?s rarely the case that anyone uses only one variation always, and the other group only uses the alternate. And the social context can subtly affect which one is chosen, even below the conscious level of the speaker. So, New York City speakers from a working class neighborhood might use the classic ?r? dropping X percent of the time, say 65% (John Boyle can probably remember this exactly), while middle class folks might only ?drop their [r]? 30%, and upper class folks might only have it 5% of the time, just as an example. It always seemed to me since so many Otoe-Missouria had Ioway kin (and vice versa) that an absolute 100% consistency in using the alternate forms (like the inye vs. inge example here) would be very unlikely. So beyond the possible differences in the persons? hearing and transcription, it might have been perfectly acceptable to pronounce the name both ways, at the same point in time. (In this part of SW Missouri, Sky, your last name would traditionally be said more like the desert animal, Camel J; we had dear neighbors who I knew only by hearing their names spoken, and was surprised to find out later that the spelling had not one but two ?silent letters?). Then a new girl of the same surname came to school, and she pronounced it Cam-bell, (still the silent p), so I added that variation for her name, but that didn?t change the way I addressed the older folks at church.... Best, Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 3:00 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Found this in the next treaty (1825) while trying to figure out yet another name LOL. Waw-zob-e-ing-ge And once I saw it, I remembered seeing it before. Now I have a shift from "th" to "z" in a span of 8 years and it has me questioning if "ignet" was actually supposed to represent -inye or -inge. If the first one was in face -inye then here you have another shift to -inge. Presumably this same individual was there to pronounce his name for whoever was writing it down. And if so, he changed 1 (and maybe 2) part of his name. A number of scenarios come to mind for the change (perhaps another one of the signers pronounced it for him) but it would still be nice to get this sorted out :). Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:27 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Whoops - I meant Dhegiha there. Sorry all! Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:22 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Good point Sky - Of course, there could be lots of alternative words for many things that we just don?t have examples, so this is exciting. Names are always fascinating. I must be getting hunger this afternoon, because Wasabi is a Japanese restaurant in town here, and the thought of wonderful hot horseradish came to my mind when your Otoe word was on the screen? J Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:12 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" That?s a very good point, Jill, and well taken. Yes, there is an equivalent name, at least in the Thatada clan, which is Wasabe-zhi?ga. If the term Sky found is a borrowing, it shows that understanding between the two groups at the time was good enough to cause Dhegiha ?s? to shift forward to Otoe ?th?, and for the Dhegiha ?small? term (zhi?ga) to be replaced by Otoe i?e, as Sky has just noted. But I think either of those are quite possible and likely, so we might want more evidence from Otoe before we conclude that this ?bear? term was generally used in Otoe. Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:52 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Sky and Rory, Great posts - one thing to consider also is that it?s actually not an Otoe word per se. It?s possible for entire names to have been borrowed across tribes (or bestowed, think of the intertribal peace-making child adoption tradition of the Pipe Dance (Calumet in some soures), with the Beloved Child (it could be a girl or a boy) undergoing an elaborate ceremony. People might have multiple names (family kin name, clan name, later a name from an accomplishment, plus nicknames [?uncle names?]. Is there a similar name in Dhegiha groups? Best, Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:43 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Sky, The wasabe term is not just Ponca; it?s Omaha, Kaw and (as wasape) Osage as well. I assume it?s common Dhegiha. It refers to the black bear, as opposed to the m?nto-equivalent term for ?grizzly bear?. I?m sure you?re entirely right that the ?Wathapay? part of that name is an Otoe equivalent of Dhegiha *wasape. It looks like the ?ignet? must have been written by a Frenchman; it kind of threw me a little at first. :) Anyway, if the *wasape term was not known from Otoe before, that?s a great catch! So it looks like you have three terms for ?bear??? Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 1:50 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" I've had a name from an old Otoe treaty (1817) that has always puzzled me. The name is: Wathapayignet - the Small Bear There is no m?nje (bear/black bear) or m?nto (grizzly bear) terms to be found in there. The "small" part is easy enough to pull out of there (yignet = -inye). Then the thought struck me about the Ponca term for bear (wasabe) and how the Ponca "s" can sometimes be the Otoe "th" in cognate terms. This gives me "wathabe" as the term for bear. Now before I run with this, does anyone have anything to back this up? It certainly makes sense and the pieces fit. But I have never seen "wathabe" anywhere as an Otoe word for bear. But if I am right, this would give me: Wathabeinye - Small Bear If I am correct, then I'm thinking that this is an extremely old term. Anyone else come across this before? Sky -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jekoontz at MSN.COM Sat Apr 19 01:28:12 2014 From: jekoontz at MSN.COM (John Koontz) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2014 19:28:12 -0600 Subject: Aho! (IO -ka in Imperatives) In-Reply-To: <002801cf5587$9f2a5010$dd7ef030$@com> Message-ID: I think the closing quote mark would be glottalization. It should be compared with things that have glottal k, t, or p. Note that Dorsey uses the same opening quotation mark for glottalization of fricative and aspiration with stops (when he marks that). The closing quotation mark is ejective with stops. It's very confusing. I forget which option he uses with glottal stop alone. He calls ejectives "exploded." Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 08:11:59 -0500 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Subject: Re: Aho! (IO -ka in Imperatives) To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu I just remembered that I needed to respond to this email so I apologize for the delay! Outlook says I replied but I don't remember doing so...perhaps I started it but had to stop. For Dorsey, the ' character that I used actually looks like a ? (not sure if you can see that...think of a superscripted reversed "c"). Does that help? Last week I had someone come to my office and they were knowledgeable enough to have me bring this up to them. They looked at it and recognized it but couldn't immediately remember the details on it. They said they'd think on it and I expect to follow up with them soon. Your mention of kare/gare perhaps being a male imperative is interesting. I mentioned in another email how this time period (1830-40s) seems to show a shift away from some of the Ponca/Omaha morphemes to today's versions. Perhaps, as you suggested, this could be another. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of John Koontz Sent: Thursday, March 6, 2014 4:16 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! (IO -ka in Imperatives) In k'a what is '? If it is aspiration (opening quote) this sounds a little like the ubiquitous the (th = aspirate) in OP. It actually alternates with the inanimate articles (the ~ khe ~ dhaN ~ ge) and is associated with something like pastness. The alternants indicate something about the "shape" of the action, as they indicate the shape of the noun when they are inanimate articles. (And khe 'long, lying' occurs with animate things like snakes.) I am pretty sure that the sense of these forms in OP is not pastness per se but 'deducibility'. As a set they indicate that the action is deduced to have occurred (in the shape indicated). This contrasts with the ama particle that occurs with reported things (and conditions any preceding plural-proximate marker to be bi instead of I). The "proximate" term is one I have borrowed from Algonquian usage and is not very suitable. The general idea is that the action can be observed to occur and takes place under the independent volition of the third person singular subject. And this is (for some reason) marked with a plural marker on the third person subject. Only Dhegiha has this pattern. But it keeps coming up because I need to explain that a=i is 'he (proximate) said' in most places, even though it looks like 'they said'. There is a non-proximate, or obviative e 'he said', but it is vanishingly rare in texts. The a=i is also 'they said', of course. (The IO analogs of e and a=i are e and a=wi.) We have to be a little careful with associating ga's. Siouan languages are full of forms that look the same and mean something different. In OP ga is the masculine imperative, the "yonder" demonstrative, and the "by striking" instrumental besides the places where it turns up superficially because gi has contracted with a following a. There's also places where aN 'we' is followed by the locative prefix a- 'on' producing aNga-. From your examples I think you are safe in associating the cases of kare where there is an imperative meaning. If you have kare alternating indeterminately with re and in more modern examples completely replaced by re, maybe you just have a case of a historical change in usage observed in progress? I can think of all kinds of things that are somewhat irregular in OP and Da because they are changing and are controlled by the formulas the speaker has heard various others use, by their sense of style as it applies in a specific utterance, and so on. Because there is an male imperative particle ga in OP it is worth wondering if =ka=re originally marked male imperatives in IO. If it works at all like OP (where the female imperative is =a), I would expect re alone to be the female imperative and to condition the a-grade of preceding ablauting e. In other words, the female imperative would be =a=re, and that initial a would replace any preceding e. It might occasionally show up as an extra element if the preceding vowel wasn't e. So in OP =a=di 'in' changes preceding e to a, ppahe ~ ppahadi, and sometimes the a appears in forms like ppamu ~ ppamuadi, tti ~ ttiadi, or sometimes you just get =di and sometimes a preceding e doesn't change either. These last, simpler patterns are, of course, the modern ones. It looks like Whitman says the imperative does condition e > a. So, for what it's worth, that pattern is consistent. Conceivably the IO imperative in the early 1800 was something like the OP one, but with the additional element =re following it. The OP imperative can be extended (for male speakers anyway) by =hau, which is essentially the declarative. Sort of like "yep!" at the end of a sentence, maybe. And sort of like the =re in IO, except that the =re is always there are ends up surviving as the only element visible. As far as female speech forms replacing male speech forms, this is actually something that can happen. Or the reverse. And apart from apparently straight up changes like that, it is also possible that the difference between the two forms was actually something like a strong suggestion (=ka=re) vs. a milder, politer one (=a=re) and men are more culturally enabled to make strong suggestions. However, fashions in these things change continually. In general the sentence final particles are highly unstable in Siouan languages, and even closely related languages (or the same language at different periods) have different systems. It was suggested that ka might be 'yon'. We could even guess that ka (or ga) in an imperative might actually be historically the ga demonstrative, used as an imperative particle. Sort of "eat, that, do it!" I'm kind of reminded of the use of ese in Chicano Spanish, though I think that is more of a male declarative. I've never really figured it out! Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 22:30:11 -0600 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Aho! To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.eduYes, "naha" is an article going along the lines of "the", "that which", "the one who", etc. You've given me a lot to think about and a lot of terminology that I'll have to wrap my head around since I'm not familiar with it. My assistants and I spent over 3 hours today tracking down all the instances of Merrill and Hamilton's use of this -ga/-ka and mapped them to a grid on a large dry-erase board in an effort to try to find some kind of common element among all of them. Unfortunately we had no luck. We tried to think of everything we could think of when it came to those verbs. Were they transitive or intransitive? Animate or inanimate objects? Singular or plural? Was the object "known" to the speaker (meaning was the speaker referring to something specific...sort of along the lines of the idea of "that" I mentioned earlier)? Of course we know that we aren't looking for every possible criteria since there are many we don't know about (like some of the ideas you mentioned). I've mentioned several of our theories such as "that", "now", "in like manner", etc. But while we were plugging away I was perusing Dorsey's vocabulary slips and found this: k'a (masc) (adverb) - of action in past time, not continuing into the present And the example he gives is: Swagaxe k'a - you did write then (but you do not write now) So in this context, I wonder if perhaps it could be along the lines of (to use an example from before) "Look at the snake" perhaps with the idea that you were looking at the snake before but aren't now and I want you to do so again. This may not be correct though since Dorsey mentions "see also" and has the endings "ke", "ki", etc. so this may represent the end of a statement and not simply an adverb that can be used where needed. Dorsey also has a rather enigmatic term "kare" (or perhaps "k'are") where he mentions "It seems to imply that the thought or desire was not gratified" but he doesn't just list this term with that explanation but rather just uses it with examples such as: Ji kare h?rawi - we thought that he would have come hither (but he did not come) I'm noting that this is after the verb that they want to attach this to which matches the placement of the enigmatic -ga/-ka. So along these lines, perhaps it could be "Look at the snake" with the idea of I wanted you to look at the snake but you didn't so I am requesting/commanding again since you didn't do it before. Yet another couple theories to add to this :). Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of John Koontz Sent: Wednesday, March 5, 2014 9:00 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Aho! I would guess this pair contrasts something analogous to Omaha-Ponca 'to say' vs. 'to say to'. The 'say' stems are highly irregular in Omaha-Ponca like most Siouan, but underlyingly they are something like e=...he vs. e=gi=...he. So the first persons are ehe 'I said it' (from something like Proto-Dhegiha *e=phe) vs. egiphe 'I said (it) to him'. The third persons are a=i 'they said' vs. ega=i 'they said to him'. I've reconstructed the plural from memory of the logic of the system. What I remember is the unpluralized from ege (e=g(i)...(h)e). The gi element is the dative marker of course and the weird thing about (OP) 'say' is that that comes *before* the pronoun. When gi is followed by the root (h)e it contracts with it. I'm not sure the root is really -he in the third person. The first and second persons are clearly built on e=(gi)=...he, but the inclusive is usually from another verb entirely, and the third person behaves like e by itself in the simple stem and e=g(i)=...e in the dative. The initial e= is presumably an incorporated e 'the aforesaid'. And, of course, this is the quoting verb that follows a quotation. There's a form with initial ga 'yonder' that is used preceding a quotation. The third person is essentially always seen as a=(nothing) or a=i or a=bi with the plural-proximate marker following e and conditioning the a-grade of the stem. (So you almost never get a singular looking form, and if you did it would be just e, and so hard to know from a demonstrative e.) The =(nothing) form of the plural-proximate is current now when no other particle follows. Dorsey always has a=i or a=bi (the latter when the quotation is itself quoted in some way). Anyway, making allowances, I hope, for my poor grasp of IO, I make these e=wa-a naha 'the one who says something' vs. e=wa-g(i)-a naha 'the one who says (something) to someone' I hope I correctly remember naha as an article of some sort. If not ... When you add a dative to something then the object is the dative object and the "direct object" sort of falls out of the agreement pattern. Sometimes it hangs around in the sentence as a noun (or quotation) without governing anything in the verb. What the relationalists called a chomeur. I may have found a clue for "ka." Dorsey has the term: e-wa-na-ha - the speaker; the one speaking Then he has the term: e wa-ka-na-ha - the one who is meant; the person addressed I'm not sure how (or even if) this is related to the "ka" I am asking about but I'm trying to look at it in different ways to see if it fits somehow. Sky Campbell, B. A.Language DirectorOtoe-Missouria Tribe580-723-4466 ext. 111sky at omtribe.org -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jekoontz at MSN.COM Sat Apr 19 01:34:05 2014 From: jekoontz at MSN.COM (John Koontz) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2014 19:34:05 -0600 Subject: Number 'nine' in Chiwere. In-Reply-To: <002001cf5585$8348c770$89da5650$@com> Message-ID: And German j would be English y, so nj here is enye, which makes sense. It is possible that things were in flux when he visited, but it sounds like he might also possibly have gotten contaminated forms. Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 07:56:53 -0500 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Subject: Re: Number 'nine' in Chiwere. To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Yes, I suspect the "ch" is the "velar" one as well. Maximillian almost exclusively uses "j" as it is pronounced in French (which is noted for each time it is used). He'll have something like: clear (water), ni-br?j? (French); they give this name to the Mississippi But he also uses a "dj" to represent more of our "j" sound and also points out when the "j" is as in German. This next entry illustrates both: Sea, nih-chonn-dj? (dje French); the Ayowas say, nih-chon-je (je German) What I also found interesting is that what we use a "ch" sound for nowadays (for example, "ch'e" for "die"), he has spelled as "ts??h". I'm curious about the "ts" rather than the "tsch" he often uses (and even the odd "tj"). Speaking of "tj", I wonder if Maximilian's time period during his travels (early 1830s) was part of a transition period moving from more of a "t" sound to "ch." For example, he has listed "tj??" for "buffalo" but has "teh-p?-seh-nih" with the "teh" sounding much more Ponca/Omaha. Nowadays we have "che" for buffalo and his use of "t" for one and "tj" for the other has got me thinking :). Plus where we have more ? and ? now, back then you see more "s" sounds. Fascinating stuff :). One thing to note though is that Maximilian notes that he got his pronunciations from Major Dougherty rather than an Otoe or Missouria speaker. I'm also interested in the "intensifier" being used with the number one. This is my first experience with it (assuming that is what it is) and the first I've heard that it is common. I'll keep an eye out for it :). Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of John Koontz Sent: Tuesday, April 8, 2014 1:11 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Number 'nine' in Chiwere. I'm sorry, some of my text comes out blue. The quotes are marked with >. > Your take on the pronunciations are what I have found as well. Maximilian was really big on the "x" sound which he represented as "ch". Most of his entries with "ch" have a note that says something like "ch guttural." There are two ch's in German. The "gutteral" (velar) one in ach, and the "soft" (or palatal) one in ich. So I expect he's trying to make it clear it's the more velar of the two readings for ch. > And I am also of the opinion that his "sch" is our "sh" sound. Yes. That's the German spelling for what English writes sh. Both actually from Proto-German sk, cf. English doublets like skirt and shirt, or skipper and ship (where the one with k is generally a loan term). > He also simply uses an "s" where he felt it was needed. Although some of his spellings aren't always consistent when he is going with the same word (used in other areas), he does seem to have taken great care to represent pronunciations as accurately as possible. Most of his terms have little notes (as I mentioned above) with them. And from what I've seen of his use of "tsch", it seems to be a "ch" pronounced somewhat forcefully (I don't know the technical term for that). He's essentially transcribing what he hears phonetically, not writing in a standard more or less phonemic orthography. Tsch is standard German spelling for what English writes ch. A forceful one would probably be an aspirated one. The less aspiration, the more it would sound like English j, where German would have orthographic difficulties. > I hadn't considered the idea of the term being reinvented in Osage. I guess it shouldn't be surprising that a culture that has those types of conventions might fill a need in the same manner as before. It depends a lot on the cultural context, but number words are often forgotten or borrowed. For some reason this is not especially true in Indo-European, so it's kind of unexpected. I remember that Omaha speakers were particularly prone to substituting English numerals (and date terms, etc.) even in conversation that was otherwise Omaha. > I'd wondered about the "xce" as well as far as being an intensifier. In Otoe-Missouria, you have a few variants that I've come across. First is more of the "h" sound with "-hji". But I've also often found that where you have a sort of "intrusive h", there are often "x" variants (for example, hga/xga for "white"). So I've also seen "-xji" as well. And to top it off, there are a lot of "s" sounds that work in there as well. I hear the "s" version pronounced often where I work. So that suffix would be "-sji" (other examples would be "wanuhje/wanusje" for "animal"). Another thing to consider is perhaps Maximilian's "ch" for the "xce" portion might be that "k" sound that emerges with glottal stops (I don't know the technical term for it but Hamilton and Irvin document it a lot in their Ioway books). The =xti ~ =xc^i intensifier enclitic, generally glossed 'very' often used in a sense of 'real' or 'just, exactly' is common with 'one'. > ? Nine, gr??bena ? tscheh ? u?ningk??? (the whole run together); i. e.,? ten less one; they also say,? schangk? lebraN (krebraN) =che wiN niNg(e?)ten the one it-lacks che = he with aspirated c (ts), 'the (vertical, inanimate)'. Os che < PDh *the, with *th > ch before e (and i). In general 'vertical' (in a pile) is used with quantities. I agree with Rory that the historical form is s^aNkka, a word that appears widely in Eastern North America, so historically a loan, but I imagine that more analytical terms are fairly common. You can find 'two fours' for 'eight' here and there, and sometimes you find variations like 'sitting on it, two' vs. 'two sixes' , in various languages. We're used to thinking of number systems as fixed, and our modern arithmetic and commercial traditions insist on it, but in many cultural contexts there's less "standardization" or numerals. > I looked up ?nine? in Carolyn Quitero?s Osage Dictionary, and the first (long) term is the only one she seems to have listed: l?br? hce w??ke This is the same term., of course, with the initial nasal between wiN and (n)iNge 'to lack' omitted. > Dhegiha *gr- generally goes to l- in Osage and Kaw, but apparently in Maximilian?s time the leading /g/ was still present. His ??? and his ?eh? apparently both represent what we write as /e/, while the ?e? between the ?b? and the ?n? presumably represents schwa. The ?n? in the first word would be /r/ followed by a nasal vowel. In Omaha, the corresponding word for ?ten? at that time was gr?br?, now shortened to gr?b?. I agree with all this analysis by Rory. The corresponding form in Dakotan (wIN)kc^emna(N) shows us that Proto-Siouan 'ten' is something like *kyepraN. Some people might prefer to think of it as *kyewraN. I don't think there's any contrast between *pr and *wr except "part of speech," which essentially encodes collections of phonological context. Except in Dakotan the *Cy and *Cr clusters fall together. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG Mon Apr 21 13:29:25 2014 From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2014 08:29:25 -0500 Subject: Number 'nine' in Chiwere. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I?ve also thought about the ?contaminated forms.? Maximilian got his Otoe language information (among other tribes? language info) from Major Dougherty who was said to speak quite a few of them (I think I remember reading somewhere that he was said to have spoken 11 of them). So not only do we have to hope that he didn?t accidentally mix anything up, but we also have to consider that his non-Indian accent wasn?t working its way in there when he was pronouncing these for Maximilian. Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of John Koontz Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 8:34 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Number 'nine' in Chiwere. And German j would be English y, so nj here is enye, which makes sense. It is possible that things were in flux when he visited, but it sounds like he might also possibly have gotten contaminated forms. ________________________________ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 07:56:53 -0500 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Subject: Re: Number 'nine' in Chiwere. To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Yes, I suspect the "ch" is the "velar" one as well. Maximillian almost exclusively uses "j" as it is pronounced in French (which is noted for each time it is used). He'll have something like: clear (water), ni-br?j? (French); they give this name to the Mississippi But he also uses a "dj" to represent more of our "j" sound and also points out when the "j" is as in German. This next entry illustrates both: Sea, nih-chonn-dj? (dje French); the Ayowas say, nih-chon-je (je German) What I also found interesting is that what we use a "ch" sound for nowadays (for example, "ch'e" for "die"), he has spelled as "ts??h". I'm curious about the "ts" rather than the "tsch" he often uses (and even the odd "tj"). Speaking of "tj", I wonder if Maximilian's time period during his travels (early 1830s) was part of a transition period moving from more of a "t" sound to "ch." For example, he has listed "tj??" for "buffalo" but has "teh-p?-seh-nih" with the "teh" sounding much more Ponca/Omaha. Nowadays we have "che" for buffalo and his use of "t" for one and "tj" for the other has got me thinking :). Plus where we have more ? and ? now, back then you see more "s" sounds. Fascinating stuff :). One thing to note though is that Maximilian notes that he got his pronunciations from Major Dougherty rather than an Otoe or Missouria speaker. I'm also interested in the "intensifier" being used with the number one. This is my first experience with it (assuming that is what it is) and the first I've heard that it is common. I'll keep an eye out for it :). Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of John Koontz Sent: Tuesday, April 8, 2014 1:11 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Number 'nine' in Chiwere. I'm sorry, some of my text comes out blue. The quotes are marked with >. > Your take on the pronunciations are what I have found as well. Maximilian was really big on the "x" sound which he represented as "ch". Most of his entries with "ch" have a note that says something like "ch guttural." There are two ch's in German. The "gutteral" (velar) one in ach, and the "soft" (or palatal) one in ich. So I expect he's trying to make it clear it's the more velar of the two readings for ch. > And I am also of the opinion that his "sch" is our "sh" sound. Yes. That's the German spelling for what English writes sh. Both actually from Proto-German sk, cf. English doublets like skirt and shirt, or skipper and ship (where the one with k is generally a loan term). > He also simply uses an "s" where he felt it was needed. Although some of his spellings aren't always consistent when he is going with the same word (used in other areas), he does seem to have taken great care to represent pronunciations as accurately as possible. Most of his terms have little notes (as I mentioned above) with them. And from what I've seen of his use of "tsch", it seems to be a "ch" pronounced somewhat forcefully (I don't know the technical term for that). He's essentially transcribing what he hears phonetically, not writing in a standard more or less phonemic orthography. Tsch is standard German spelling for what English writes ch. A forceful one would probably be an aspirated one. The less aspiration, the more it would sound like English j, where German would have orthographic difficulties. > I hadn't considered the idea of the term being reinvented in Osage. I guess it shouldn't be surprising that a culture that has those types of conventions might fill a need in the same manner as before. It depends a lot on the cultural context, but number words are often forgotten or borrowed. For some reason this is not especially true in Indo-European, so it's kind of unexpected. I remember that Omaha speakers were particularly prone to substituting English numerals (and date terms, etc.) even in conversation that was otherwise Omaha. > I'd wondered about the "xce" as well as far as being an intensifier. In Otoe-Missouria, you have a few variants that I've come across. First is more of the "h" sound with "-hji". But I've also often found that where you have a sort of "intrusive h", there are often "x" variants (for example, hga/xga for "white"). So I've also seen "-xji" as well. And to top it off, there are a lot of "s" sounds that work in there as well. I hear the "s" version pronounced often where I work. So that suffix would be "-sji" (other examples would be "wanuhje/wanusje" for "animal"). Another thing to consider is perhaps Maximilian's "ch" for the "xce" portion might be that "k" sound that emerges with glottal stops (I don't know the technical term for it but Hamilton and Irvin document it a lot in their Ioway books). The =xti ~ =xc^i intensifier enclitic, generally glossed 'very' often used in a sense of 'real' or 'just, exactly' is common with 'one'. > > Nine, gr??bena ? tscheh ? u?ningk?? > (the whole run together); i. e., > ten less one; they also say, > schangk? lebraN (krebraN) =che wiN niNg(e?) ten the one it-lacks che = he with aspirated c (ts), 'the (vertical, inanimate)'. Os che < PDh *the, with *th > ch before e (and i). In general 'vertical' (in a pile) is used with quantities. I agree with Rory that the historical form is s^aNkka, a word that appears widely in Eastern North America, so historically a loan, but I imagine that more analytical terms are fairly common. You can find 'two fours' for 'eight' here and there, and sometimes you find variations like 'sitting on it, two' vs. 'two sixes' , in various languages. We're used to thinking of number systems as fixed, and our modern arithmetic and commercial traditions insist on it, but in many cultural contexts there's less "standardization" or numerals. > I looked up ?nine? in Carolyn Quitero?s Osage Dictionary, and the first (long) term is the only one she seems to have listed: l?br? hce w??ke This is the same term., of course, with the initial nasal between wiN and (n)iNge 'to lack' omitted. > Dhegiha *gr- generally goes to l- in Osage and Kaw, but apparently in Maximilian?s time the leading /g/ was still present. His ??? and his ?eh? apparently both represent what we write as /e/, while the ?e? between the ?b? and the ?n? presumably represents schwa. The ?n? in the first word would be /r/ followed by a nasal vowel. In Omaha, the corresponding word for ?ten? at that time was gr?br?, now shortened to gr?b?. I agree with all this analysis by Rory. The corresponding form in Dakotan (wIN)kc^emna(N) shows us that Proto-Siouan 'ten' is something like *kyepraN. Some people might prefer to think of it as *kyewraN. I don't think there's any contrast between *pr and *wr except "part of speech," which essentially encodes collections of phonological context. Except in Dakotan the *Cy and *Cr clusters fall together. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Mon Apr 21 14:34:22 2014 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2014 14:34:22 +0000 Subject: Chiwere pronunciation In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E436C33F979867@Server6-EX.omtribe.net> Message-ID: ? What I also found interesting is that what we use a "ch" sound for nowadays (for example, "ch'e" for "die"), he has spelled as "ts??h". I'm curious about the "ts" rather than the "tsch" he often uses (and even the odd "tj"). Speaking of "tj", I wonder if Maximilian's time period during his travels (early 1830s) was part of a transition period moving from more of a "t" sound to "ch." For example, he has listed "tj??" for "buffalo" but has "teh-p?-seh-nih" with the "teh" sounding much more Ponca/Omaha. Nowadays we have "che" for buffalo and his use of "t" for one and "tj" for the other has got me thinking :). Perhaps we should reconstruct a palatalized ?t? here. As English speakers, we may be focussing too much on the fricative or affricate quality when we break this down as ?ch?, or ?t? + ?sh?, or ?t? + ?s?. But what may be going on is that the tongue is simply bowed forward into the position it would assume for English ?ee? or hard ?y?, even before the ?t? is articulated, in anticipation of a front vowel, /e/ or /i/, that will follow the ?t?. If you try pronouncing ?t? that way, a fricative ?s? or ?sh? sound will follow very easily, especially if there is any force of breath at all on the release. But from the native point of view, it?s still just a ?t?. Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky Sent: Monday, April 21, 2014 8:29 AM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: Number 'nine' in Chiwere. I?ve also thought about the ?contaminated forms.? Maximilian got his Otoe language information (among other tribes? language info) from Major Dougherty who was said to speak quite a few of them (I think I remember reading somewhere that he was said to have spoken 11 of them). So not only do we have to hope that he didn?t accidentally mix anything up, but we also have to consider that his non-Indian accent wasn?t working its way in there when he was pronouncing these for Maximilian. Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of John Koontz Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 8:34 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Number 'nine' in Chiwere. And German j would be English y, so nj here is enye, which makes sense. It is possible that things were in flux when he visited, but it sounds like he might also possibly have gotten contaminated forms. ________________________________ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 07:56:53 -0500 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Subject: Re: Number 'nine' in Chiwere. To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Yes, I suspect the "ch" is the "velar" one as well. Maximillian almost exclusively uses "j" as it is pronounced in French (which is noted for each time it is used). He'll have something like: clear (water), ni-br?j? (French); they give this name to the Mississippi But he also uses a "dj" to represent more of our "j" sound and also points out when the "j" is as in German. This next entry illustrates both: Sea, nih-chonn-dj? (dje French); the Ayowas say, nih-chon-je (je German) What I also found interesting is that what we use a "ch" sound for nowadays (for example, "ch'e" for "die"), he has spelled as "ts??h". I'm curious about the "ts" rather than the "tsch" he often uses (and even the odd "tj"). Speaking of "tj", I wonder if Maximilian's time period during his travels (early 1830s) was part of a transition period moving from more of a "t" sound to "ch." For example, he has listed "tj??" for "buffalo" but has "teh-p?-seh-nih" with the "teh" sounding much more Ponca/Omaha. Nowadays we have "che" for buffalo and his use of "t" for one and "tj" for the other has got me thinking :). Plus where we have more ? and ? now, back then you see more "s" sounds. Fascinating stuff :). One thing to note though is that Maximilian notes that he got his pronunciations from Major Dougherty rather than an Otoe or Missouria speaker. I'm also interested in the "intensifier" being used with the number one. This is my first experience with it (assuming that is what it is) and the first I've heard that it is common. I'll keep an eye out for it :). Sky -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG Mon Apr 21 16:50:14 2014 From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2014 11:50:14 -0500 Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" In-Reply-To: <000801cf5b5a$45b0c270$d1124750$@com> Message-ID: I found this while going through some of Dorsey?s names: Wa-?a-?pe yi?-?e, Tciwere notation of the Cegiha, Wasabe ji?ga, Young Black bear. See M??tcinye. He shows this as an Otoe-Missouria Bear Clan name and there isn?t a mention of this individual belonging to another tribe. This list was made about 60+ years after the same name on the 1817 treaty. Could this be the same guy? Possible?especially since he often lists deceased individuals (no mention of that here though). I?d find it unlikely (but not impossible) that the same individual was still alive so I?m thinking that either he was given the name by someone, there was another individual living at that time with the same name, or perhaps he even got it off of the 1817 treaty and just added it to his list. What I find interesting is the ?Tciwere notation of?? statement. I?m trying to figure out if he is trying to indicate that this name is an Otoe-Missouria cognate of the Dhegiha term (as in it was perhaps used regularly) or if it was a one-time thing and this was simply an Otoe-ization of Wasabe Zhinga. Him listing it as a Bear Clan name has me slightly leaning toward the former. What I also find interesting, regardless of which of the above scenarios is correct for this term, is why were two portions of this word ?shifted? to an Otoe-Missouria form (the s to a th and zhinga to ?inye) and not a potential third? Why didn?t the ?b (p)? turn into a ?w? as seen in other cognates? And naturally I didn?t stumble upon this information looking for this specific name?I was looking for something else!! [cid:image002.jpg at 01CF5D57.DB5459F0] Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 6:02 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Importance: Low Jimm, Very true...I've also seen a handful of names referring to other tribes (Ioway, Pawnee, Pottawatomie, Omaha, etc.). It makes me curious about if this person were from another tribe (at least in part), what the scenario was that allowed them to inherit and/or rise through the ranks to become someone important enough to sign a treaty. Jill, I know what you mean. I've considered the possibility of using variations. I know we only met briefly at Breath of Life last year so I don't know how much of my West Virginia accent/slang came out for you to hear but I do know that it does emerge from time to time (much to my wife's amusement when I say something like "I ain't eat yet" :) ). It's been years since I've lived there but those remnants still bubble to the surface. I think people are often flabbergasted when they find out that I work with languages LOL. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 1:18 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Interesting! Remember that as people like the American dialectologist William Labov taught us, if there are variations in how to pronounce something within a language, it?s rarely the case that anyone uses only one variation always, and the other group only uses the alternate. And the social context can subtly affect which one is chosen, even below the conscious level of the speaker. So, New York City speakers from a working class neighborhood might use the classic ?r? dropping X percent of the time, say 65% (John Boyle can probably remember this exactly), while middle class folks might only ?drop their [r]? 30%, and upper class folks might only have it 5% of the time, just as an example. It always seemed to me since so many Otoe-Missouria had Ioway kin (and vice versa) that an absolute 100% consistency in using the alternate forms (like the inye vs. inge example here) would be very unlikely. So beyond the possible differences in the persons? hearing and transcription, it might have been perfectly acceptable to pronounce the name both ways, at the same point in time. (In this part of SW Missouri, Sky, your last name would traditionally be said more like the desert animal, Camel ?; we had dear neighbors who I knew only by hearing their names spoken, and was surprised to find out later that the spelling had not one but two ?silent letters?). Then a new girl of the same surname came to school, and she pronounced it Cam-bell, (still the silent p), so I added that variation for her name, but that didn?t change the way I addressed the older folks at church.... Best, Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 3:00 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Found this in the next treaty (1825) while trying to figure out yet another name LOL. Waw-zob-e-ing-ge And once I saw it, I remembered seeing it before. Now I have a shift from "th" to "z" in a span of 8 years and it has me questioning if "ignet" was actually supposed to represent -inye or -inge. If the first one was in face -inye then here you have another shift to -inge. Presumably this same individual was there to pronounce his name for whoever was writing it down. And if so, he changed 1 (and maybe 2) part of his name. A number of scenarios come to mind for the change (perhaps another one of the signers pronounced it for him) but it would still be nice to get this sorted out :). Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:27 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Whoops - I meant Dhegiha there. Sorry all! Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:22 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Good point Sky - Of course, there could be lots of alternative words for many things that we just don?t have examples, so this is exciting. Names are always fascinating. I must be getting hunger this afternoon, because Wasabi is a Japanese restaurant in town here, and the thought of wonderful hot horseradish came to my mind when your Otoe word was on the screen? ? Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:12 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" That?s a very good point, Jill, and well taken. Yes, there is an equivalent name, at least in the Thatada clan, which is Wasabe-zhi?ga. If the term Sky found is a borrowing, it shows that understanding between the two groups at the time was good enough to cause Dhegiha ?s? to shift forward to Otoe ?th?, and for the Dhegiha ?small? term (zhi?ga) to be replaced by Otoe i?e, as Sky has just noted. But I think either of those are quite possible and likely, so we might want more evidence from Otoe before we conclude that this ?bear? term was generally used in Otoe. Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:52 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Sky and Rory, Great posts - one thing to consider also is that it?s actually not an Otoe word per se. It?s possible for entire names to have been borrowed across tribes (or bestowed, think of the intertribal peace-making child adoption tradition of the Pipe Dance (Calumet in some soures), with the Beloved Child (it could be a girl or a boy) undergoing an elaborate ceremony. People might have multiple names (family kin name, clan name, later a name from an accomplishment, plus nicknames [?uncle names?]. Is there a similar name in Dhegiha groups? Best, Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:43 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Sky, The wasabe term is not just Ponca; it?s Omaha, Kaw and (as wasape) Osage as well. I assume it?s common Dhegiha. It refers to the black bear, as opposed to the m?nto-equivalent term for ?grizzly bear?. I?m sure you?re entirely right that the ?Wathapay? part of that name is an Otoe equivalent of Dhegiha *wasape. It looks like the ?ignet? must have been written by a Frenchman; it kind of threw me a little at first. :) Anyway, if the *wasape term was not known from Otoe before, that?s a great catch! So it looks like you have three terms for ?bear??? Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 1:50 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" I've had a name from an old Otoe treaty (1817) that has always puzzled me. The name is: Wathapayignet - the Small Bear There is no m?nje (bear/black bear) or m?nto (grizzly bear) terms to be found in there. The "small" part is easy enough to pull out of there (yignet = -inye). Then the thought struck me about the Ponca term for bear (wasabe) and how the Ponca "s" can sometimes be the Otoe "th" in cognate terms. This gives me "wathabe" as the term for bear. Now before I run with this, does anyone have anything to back this up? It certainly makes sense and the pieces fit. But I have never seen "wathabe" anywhere as an Otoe word for bear. But if I am right, this would give me: Wathabeinye - Small Bear If I am correct, then I'm thinking that this is an extremely old term. Anyone else come across this before? Sky -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 11974 bytes Desc: image002.jpg URL: From jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU Mon Apr 21 17:55:00 2014 From: jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU (Mcbride, Justin) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2014 12:55:00 -0500 Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E436C33F9798D9@Server6-EX.omtribe.net> Message-ID: Sky, > Why didn?t the ?b (p)? turn into a ?w? as seen in other cognates? I don't know much at all about OM, but in Ks, it's always wise to keep in mind that the language was really never static until it ceased to be spoken; individual and group variations are always present in living languages, as Bill Labov would tell you, and these variations ultimately drive language change over time. As such, the phonological correspondences that seem to be reliably stable later on--a good example of this is plain /l/ in Ks or Os for what is OP /g?/ or Qu /kd~kn/--don't always appear to bear out so reliably in historical documents. This is especially true of traditional names, which are often quite conservative. So, there are numerous instances of Dorsey listing Ks names with, say, 'hawk' written as gledaN, when none of the 20th century speakers would have had that /gl/ onset in everyday speech. Unfortunately, Dorsey's or other people's descriptive snapshots don't really provide enough information to know the full story: It may have been that /gl/ may still have been in the process of transitioning to /l/ at the time of the documentation, leaving some potential informants with /gl/ and others with /l/. Or, it may be that /gl/ had completely disappeared in everyday speech, but was only retained in names. Or, it may have been something else entirely. Bear in mind also that, at least in Dhegiha, /p~b~w~m/ and even /?/ vary greatly before front vowels. This yields cases of bekkaNj^e~wekkaNj^e~mekkaNj^e (the last of which is really odd, since we would never expect /m/ before an oral vowel in Ks) from contemporary speakers for one of the most common but not easily translatable female names in Ks. Dorsey doesn't have a really consistent way of spelling this phenomenon, and it may be because his informants didn't necessarily agree. If OM is at all similar in its lack of consistency in this environment, it's not surprising to have a rather unexpected spelling here, especially if only one guy had the name. All the best, -Justin On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 11:50 AM, Campbell, Sky wrote: > I found this while going through some of Dorsey?s names: > > > > Wa-?a-?pe yi?-?e, Tciwere notation of the Cegiha, Wasabe ji?ga, Young > Black bear. See M??tcinye. > > > > He shows this as an Otoe-Missouria Bear Clan name and there isn?t a > mention of this individual belonging to another tribe. This list was made > about 60+ years after the same name on the 1817 treaty. Could this be the > same guy? Possible?especially since he often lists deceased individuals > (no mention of that here though). I?d find it unlikely (but not > impossible) that the same individual was still alive so I?m thinking that > either he was given the name by someone, there was another individual > living at that time with the same name, or perhaps he even got it off of > the 1817 treaty and just added it to his list. What I find interesting is > the ?Tciwere notation of?? statement. I?m trying to figure out if he is > trying to indicate that this name is an Otoe-Missouria cognate of the > Dhegiha term (as in it was perhaps used regularly) or if it was a one-time > thing and this was simply an Otoe-ization of Wasabe Zhinga. Him listing it > as a Bear Clan name has me slightly leaning toward the former. > > > > What I also find interesting, regardless of which of the above scenarios > is correct for this term, is why were two portions of this word ?shifted? > to an Otoe-Missouria form (the s to a th and zhinga to ?inye) and not a > potential third? Why didn?t the ?b (p)? turn into a ?w? as seen in other > cognates? > > > > And naturally I didn?t stumble upon this information looking for this > specific name?I was looking for something else!! > > > > > > [image: Wathabeinye.jpg] > > > > *Sky Campbell, B. A.* > > Language Director > > Otoe-Missouria Tribe > > 580-723-4466 ext. 111 > > sky at omtribe.org > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of > *Sky Campbell > *Sent:* Friday, April 18, 2014 6:02 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" > *Importance:* Low > > > > Jimm, > > > > Very true...I've also seen a handful of names referring to other tribes > (Ioway, Pawnee, Pottawatomie, Omaha, etc.). It makes me curious about if > this person were from another tribe (at least in part), what the scenario > was that allowed them to inherit and/or rise through the ranks to become > someone important enough to sign a treaty. > > > > Jill, > > > > I know what you mean. I've considered the possibility of using > variations. I know we only met briefly at Breath of Life last year so I > don't know how much of my West Virginia accent/slang came out for you to > hear but I do know that it does emerge from time to time (much to my wife's > amusement when I say something like "I ain't eat yet" :) ). It's been > years since I've lived there but those remnants still bubble to the > surface. I think people are often flabbergasted when they find out that I > work with languages LOL. > > > > Sky > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] > *On Behalf Of *Greer, Jill > *Sent:* Friday, April 18, 2014 1:18 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" > > > > Interesting! Remember that as people like the American dialectologist > William Labov taught us, if there are variations in how to pronounce > something within a language, it?s rarely the case that anyone uses only > one variation always, and the other group only uses the alternate. And > the social context can subtly affect which one is chosen, even below the > conscious level of the speaker. So, New York City speakers from a working > class neighborhood might use the classic ?r? dropping X percent of the > time, say 65% (John Boyle can probably remember this exactly), while > middle class folks might only ?drop their [r]? 30%, and upper class folks > might only have it 5% of the time, just as an example. > > > > It always seemed to me since so many Otoe-Missouria had Ioway kin (and > vice versa) that an absolute 100% consistency in using the alternate forms > (like the inye vs. inge example here) would be very unlikely. So beyond > the possible differences in the persons? hearing and transcription, it > might have been perfectly acceptable to pronounce the name both ways, at > the same point in time. > > (In this part of SW Missouri, Sky, your last name would traditionally > be said more like the desert animal, Camel J; we had dear neighbors who > I knew only by hearing their names spoken, and was surprised to find out > later that the spelling had not one but two ?silent letters?). Then a new > girl of the same surname came to school, and she pronounced it Cam-bell, > (still the silent p), so I added that variation for her name, but that > didn?t change the way I addressed the older folks at church.... > > > > Best, > > Jill > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] > *On Behalf Of *Sky Campbell > *Sent:* Thursday, April 17, 2014 3:00 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" > > > > Found this in the next treaty (1825) while trying to figure out yet > another name LOL. > > > > Waw-zob-e-ing-ge > > > > And once I saw it, I remembered seeing it before. Now I have a shift from > "th" to "z" in a span of 8 years and it has me questioning if "ignet" was > actually supposed to represent -inye or -inge. If the first one was in > face -inye then here you have another shift to -inge. Presumably this same > individual was there to pronounce his name for whoever was writing it > down. And if so, he changed 1 (and maybe 2) part of his name. A number of > scenarios come to mind for the change (perhaps another one of the signers > pronounced it for him) but it would still be nice to get this sorted out :). > > > > Sky > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] > *On Behalf Of *Greer, Jill > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:27 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" > > > > Whoops - I meant Dhegiha there. Sorry all! Jill > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] > *On Behalf Of *Greer, Jill > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:22 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" > > > > Good point Sky - Of course, there could be lots of alternative words for > many things that we just don?t have examples, so this is exciting. Names > are always fascinating. I must be getting hunger this afternoon, because > Wasabi is a Japanese restaurant in town here, and the thought of wonderful > hot horseradish came to my mind when your Otoe word was on the screen? J > > > > Jill > > > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] > *On Behalf Of *Rory Larson > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:12 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" > > > > That?s a very good point, Jill, and well taken. Yes, there is an > equivalent name, at least in the Thatada clan, which is Wasabe-zhi?ga. If > the term Sky found is a borrowing, it shows that understanding between the > two groups at the time was good enough to cause Dhegiha ?s? to shift > forward to Otoe ?th?, and for the Dhegiha ?small? term (zhi?ga) to be > replaced by Otoe i?e, as Sky has just noted. But I think either of those > are quite possible and likely, so we might want more evidence from Otoe > before we conclude that this ?bear? term was generally used in Otoe. > > > > Best, > > Rory > > > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] > *On Behalf Of *Greer, Jill > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:52 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU > *Subject:* Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" > > > > Sky and Rory, > > Great posts - one thing to consider also is that it?s actually not an > Otoe word per se. It?s possible for entire names to have been borrowed > across tribes (or bestowed, think of the intertribal peace-making child > adoption tradition of the Pipe Dance (Calumet in some soures), with the > Beloved Child (it could be a girl or a boy) undergoing an elaborate > ceremony. People might have multiple names (family kin name, clan name, > later a name from an accomplishment, plus nicknames [?uncle names?]. Is > there a similar name in Dhegiha groups? > > > > Best, > > Jill > > > > > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] > *On Behalf Of *Rory Larson > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:43 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" > > > > Sky, > > > > The *wasabe* term is not just Ponca; it?s Omaha, Kaw and (as *wasape*) > Osage as well. I assume it?s common Dhegiha. It refers to the black bear, > as opposed to the *m?nto*-equivalent term for ?grizzly bear?. I?m sure > you?re entirely right that the ?Wathapay? part of that name is an Otoe > equivalent of Dhegiha **wasape*. It looks like the ?ignet? must have > been written by a Frenchman; it kind of threw me a little at first. :) > > > > Anyway, if the **wasape* term was not known from Otoe before, that?s a > great catch! So it looks like you have three terms for ?bear??? > > > > Best, > > Rory > > > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] > *On Behalf Of *Sky Campbell > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 16, 2014 1:50 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU > *Subject:* Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" > > > > I've had a name from an old Otoe treaty (1817) that has always puzzled > me. The name is: > > > > Wathapayignet - the Small Bear > > > > There is no *m?nje* (bear/black bear) or *m?nto* (grizzly bear) terms to > be found in there. The "small" part is easy enough to pull out of there > (yignet = -inye). Then the thought struck me about the Ponca term for bear > (wasabe) and how the Ponca "s" can sometimes be the Otoe "th" in cognate > terms. This gives me "wathabe" as the term for bear. Now before I run > with this, does anyone have anything to back this up? It certainly makes > sense and the pieces fit. But I have never seen "wathabe" anywhere as an > Otoe word for bear. But if I am right, this would give me: > > > > Wathabeinye - Small Bear > > > > If I am correct, then I'm thinking that this is an *extremely* old term. > > > > Anyone else come across this before? > > > > Sky > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's > DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from > Yahoo.com > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's > DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from > Yahoo.com > > > > This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject > to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for > the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended > recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of > the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by > law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please > notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's > DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from > Yahoo.com > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's > DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from > Yahoo.com > > > > This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject > to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for > the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended > recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of > the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by > law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please > notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's > DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from > Yahoo.com > > > > This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject > to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for > the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended > recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of > the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by > law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please > notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's > DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from > Yahoo.com > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's > DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from > Yahoo.com > > > > This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject > to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for > the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended > recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of > the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by > law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please > notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's > DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from > Yahoo.com > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's > DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from > Yahoo.com > > ?? > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's > DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from > Yahoo.com > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 11974 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Mon Apr 21 19:12:11 2014 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2014 19:12:11 +0000 Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E436C33F9798D9@Server6-EX.omtribe.net> Message-ID: ? What I also find interesting, regardless of which of the above scenarios is correct for this term, is why were two portions of this word ?shifted? to an Otoe-Missouria form (the s to a th and zhinga to ?inye) and not a potential third? Why didn?t the ?b (p)? turn into a ?w? as seen in other cognates? That?s a very good observation, and I think it probably tells us that the word is a loan from Dhegiha, as Jill suggested, not a native Otoe-Missouria form. They would have understood the meaning well enough to change the ?small? word to their own term for ?small?. The shift from /s/ to dental voiceless fricative ?th? may have happened after the name was adopted, or else ?th? may still have been the closest thing to /s/ they had when they adopted it. The main term is apparently analyzable in Dhegiha as wa-sabe, ?the Black One?, based on sabe, meaning ?black?. But in Chiwere, the word for ?black? seems to be thewe, which is presumably cognate to Dhegiha sebe, meaning ?shadowed?. Going off Jimm?s Baxoje Dictionary, it looks like thewe is the only word for ?black? in that language, with no equivalent for Dhegiha sabe. So the term may not even be analyzable in Chiwere. That would mean that they pulled it in as a whole unanalyzed unit, complete with the foreign pronunciation. It would be like one of us, being gifted with the name from Omaha relatives, calling ourselves to other English speakers, ?Little Wasabe? rather than ?Little Blackbear?. ?Little? might have been a standard naming word in Otoe-Missouria that no one cared to mess with, but perhaps as a foreign term Wasabe carried a cachet that might have been lacking if they had translated it into the native Otoe-Missouria word for ?black bear?. Incidentally, I believe that Comanche also adopted the wasabe term for ?black bear? from Dhegiha. Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky Sent: Monday, April 21, 2014 11:50 AM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" I found this while going through some of Dorsey?s names: Wa-?a-?pe yi?-?e, Tciwere notation of the Cegiha, Wasabe ji?ga, Young Black bear. See M??tcinye. He shows this as an Otoe-Missouria Bear Clan name and there isn?t a mention of this individual belonging to another tribe. This list was made about 60+ years after the same name on the 1817 treaty. Could this be the same guy? Possible?especially since he often lists deceased individuals (no mention of that here though). I?d find it unlikely (but not impossible) that the same individual was still alive so I?m thinking that either he was given the name by someone, there was another individual living at that time with the same name, or perhaps he even got it off of the 1817 treaty and just added it to his list. What I find interesting is the ?Tciwere notation of?? statement. I?m trying to figure out if he is trying to indicate that this name is an Otoe-Missouria cognate of the Dhegiha term (as in it was perhaps used regularly) or if it was a one-time thing and this was simply an Otoe-ization of Wasabe Zhinga. Him listing it as a Bear Clan name has me slightly leaning toward the former. What I also find interesting, regardless of which of the above scenarios is correct for this term, is why were two portions of this word ?shifted? to an Otoe-Missouria form (the s to a th and zhinga to ?inye) and not a potential third? Why didn?t the ?b (p)? turn into a ?w? as seen in other cognates? And naturally I didn?t stumble upon this information looking for this specific name?I was looking for something else!! [Wathabeinye.jpg] Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 6:02 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Importance: Low Jimm, Very true...I've also seen a handful of names referring to other tribes (Ioway, Pawnee, Pottawatomie, Omaha, etc.). It makes me curious about if this person were from another tribe (at least in part), what the scenario was that allowed them to inherit and/or rise through the ranks to become someone important enough to sign a treaty. Jill, I know what you mean. I've considered the possibility of using variations. I know we only met briefly at Breath of Life last year so I don't know how much of my West Virginia accent/slang came out for you to hear but I do know that it does emerge from time to time (much to my wife's amusement when I say something like "I ain't eat yet" :) ). It's been years since I've lived there but those remnants still bubble to the surface. I think people are often flabbergasted when they find out that I work with languages LOL. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 1:18 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Interesting! Remember that as people like the American dialectologist William Labov taught us, if there are variations in how to pronounce something within a language, it?s rarely the case that anyone uses only one variation always, and the other group only uses the alternate. And the social context can subtly affect which one is chosen, even below the conscious level of the speaker. So, New York City speakers from a working class neighborhood might use the classic ?r? dropping X percent of the time, say 65% (John Boyle can probably remember this exactly), while middle class folks might only ?drop their [r]? 30%, and upper class folks might only have it 5% of the time, just as an example. It always seemed to me since so many Otoe-Missouria had Ioway kin (and vice versa) that an absolute 100% consistency in using the alternate forms (like the inye vs. inge example here) would be very unlikely. So beyond the possible differences in the persons? hearing and transcription, it might have been perfectly acceptable to pronounce the name both ways, at the same point in time. (In this part of SW Missouri, Sky, your last name would traditionally be said more like the desert animal, Camel ?; we had dear neighbors who I knew only by hearing their names spoken, and was surprised to find out later that the spelling had not one but two ?silent letters?). Then a new girl of the same surname came to school, and she pronounced it Cam-bell, (still the silent p), so I added that variation for her name, but that didn?t change the way I addressed the older folks at church.... Best, Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 3:00 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Found this in the next treaty (1825) while trying to figure out yet another name LOL. Waw-zob-e-ing-ge And once I saw it, I remembered seeing it before. Now I have a shift from "th" to "z" in a span of 8 years and it has me questioning if "ignet" was actually supposed to represent -inye or -inge. If the first one was in face -inye then here you have another shift to -inge. Presumably this same individual was there to pronounce his name for whoever was writing it down. And if so, he changed 1 (and maybe 2) part of his name. A number of scenarios come to mind for the change (perhaps another one of the signers pronounced it for him) but it would still be nice to get this sorted out :). Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:27 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Whoops - I meant Dhegiha there. Sorry all! Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:22 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Good point Sky - Of course, there could be lots of alternative words for many things that we just don?t have examples, so this is exciting. Names are always fascinating. I must be getting hunger this afternoon, because Wasabi is a Japanese restaurant in town here, and the thought of wonderful hot horseradish came to my mind when your Otoe word was on the screen? ? Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:12 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" That?s a very good point, Jill, and well taken. Yes, there is an equivalent name, at least in the Thatada clan, which is Wasabe-zhi?ga. If the term Sky found is a borrowing, it shows that understanding between the two groups at the time was good enough to cause Dhegiha ?s? to shift forward to Otoe ?th?, and for the Dhegiha ?small? term (zhi?ga) to be replaced by Otoe i?e, as Sky has just noted. But I think either of those are quite possible and likely, so we might want more evidence from Otoe before we conclude that this ?bear? term was generally used in Otoe. Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:52 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Sky and Rory, Great posts - one thing to consider also is that it?s actually not an Otoe word per se. It?s possible for entire names to have been borrowed across tribes (or bestowed, think of the intertribal peace-making child adoption tradition of the Pipe Dance (Calumet in some soures), with the Beloved Child (it could be a girl or a boy) undergoing an elaborate ceremony. People might have multiple names (family kin name, clan name, later a name from an accomplishment, plus nicknames [?uncle names?]. Is there a similar name in Dhegiha groups? Best, Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:43 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Sky, The wasabe term is not just Ponca; it?s Omaha, Kaw and (as wasape) Osage as well. I assume it?s common Dhegiha. It refers to the black bear, as opposed to the m?nto-equivalent term for ?grizzly bear?. I?m sure you?re entirely right that the ?Wathapay? part of that name is an Otoe equivalent of Dhegiha *wasape. It looks like the ?ignet? must have been written by a Frenchman; it kind of threw me a little at first. :) Anyway, if the *wasape term was not known from Otoe before, that?s a great catch! So it looks like you have three terms for ?bear??? Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 1:50 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" I've had a name from an old Otoe treaty (1817) that has always puzzled me. The name is: Wathapayignet - the Small Bear There is no m?nje (bear/black bear) or m?nto (grizzly bear) terms to be found in there. The "small" part is easy enough to pull out of there (yignet = -inye). Then the thought struck me about the Ponca term for bear (wasabe) and how the Ponca "s" can sometimes be the Otoe "th" in cognate terms. This gives me "wathabe" as the term for bear. Now before I run with this, does anyone have anything to back this up? It certainly makes sense and the pieces fit. But I have never seen "wathabe" anywhere as an Otoe word for bear. But if I am right, this would give me: Wathabeinye - Small Bear If I am correct, then I'm thinking that this is an extremely old term. Anyone else come across this before? Sky -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com ?? -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 11974 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: From Kathleen.Danker at SDSTATE.EDU Mon Apr 21 21:43:58 2014 From: Kathleen.Danker at SDSTATE.EDU (Danker, Kathleen) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2014 21:43:58 +0000 Subject: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" In-Reply-To: <975c97ced6454aff875d47b927664461@BLUPR04MB819.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Jill, My grandparents lived in Campbell, Nebraska, pronounced Camel. I have always thought the pronunciation had something to do with the French-Canadian settlers in the area. K.D. Danker From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 1:18 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Interesting! Remember that as people like the American dialectologist William Labov taught us, if there are variations in how to pronounce something within a language, it?s rarely the case that anyone uses only one variation always, and the other group only uses the alternate. And the social context can subtly affect which one is chosen, even below the conscious level of the speaker. So, New York City speakers from a working class neighborhood might use the classic ?r? dropping X percent of the time, say 65% (John Boyle can probably remember this exactly), while middle class folks might only ?drop their [r]? 30%, and upper class folks might only have it 5% of the time, just as an example. It always seemed to me since so many Otoe-Missouria had Ioway kin (and vice versa) that an absolute 100% consistency in using the alternate forms (like the inye vs. inge example here) would be very unlikely. So beyond the possible differences in the persons? hearing and transcription, it might have been perfectly acceptable to pronounce the name both ways, at the same point in time. (In this part of SW Missouri, Sky, your last name would traditionally be said more like the desert animal, Camel ?; we had dear neighbors who I knew only by hearing their names spoken, and was surprised to find out later that the spelling had not one but two ?silent letters?). Then a new girl of the same surname came to school, and she pronounced it Cam-bell, (still the silent p), so I added that variation for her name, but that didn?t change the way I addressed the older folks at church.... Best, Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 3:00 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Found this in the next treaty (1825) while trying to figure out yet another name LOL. Waw-zob-e-ing-ge And once I saw it, I remembered seeing it before. Now I have a shift from "th" to "z" in a span of 8 years and it has me questioning if "ignet" was actually supposed to represent -inye or -inge. If the first one was in face -inye then here you have another shift to -inge. Presumably this same individual was there to pronounce his name for whoever was writing it down. And if so, he changed 1 (and maybe 2) part of his name. A number of scenarios come to mind for the change (perhaps another one of the signers pronounced it for him) but it would still be nice to get this sorted out :). Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:27 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Whoops - I meant Dhegiha there. Sorry all! Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:22 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Good point Sky - Of course, there could be lots of alternative words for many things that we just don?t have examples, so this is exciting. Names are always fascinating. I must be getting hunger this afternoon, because Wasabi is a Japanese restaurant in town here, and the thought of wonderful hot horseradish came to my mind when your Otoe word was on the screen? ? Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:12 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" That?s a very good point, Jill, and well taken. Yes, there is an equivalent name, at least in the Thatada clan, which is Wasabe-zhi?ga. If the term Sky found is a borrowing, it shows that understanding between the two groups at the time was good enough to cause Dhegiha ?s? to shift forward to Otoe ?th?, and for the Dhegiha ?small? term (zhi?ga) to be replaced by Otoe i?e, as Sky has just noted. But I think either of those are quite possible and likely, so we might want more evidence from Otoe before we conclude that this ?bear? term was generally used in Otoe. Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:52 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Sky and Rory, Great posts - one thing to consider also is that it?s actually not an Otoe word per se. It?s possible for entire names to have been borrowed across tribes (or bestowed, think of the intertribal peace-making child adoption tradition of the Pipe Dance (Calumet in some soures), with the Beloved Child (it could be a girl or a boy) undergoing an elaborate ceremony. People might have multiple names (family kin name, clan name, later a name from an accomplishment, plus nicknames [?uncle names?]. Is there a similar name in Dhegiha groups? Best, Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:43 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Sky, The wasabe term is not just Ponca; it?s Omaha, Kaw and (as wasape) Osage as well. I assume it?s common Dhegiha. It refers to the black bear, as opposed to the m?nto-equivalent term for ?grizzly bear?. I?m sure you?re entirely right that the ?Wathapay? part of that name is an Otoe equivalent of Dhegiha *wasape. It looks like the ?ignet? must have been written by a Frenchman; it kind of threw me a little at first. :) Anyway, if the *wasape term was not known from Otoe before, that?s a great catch! So it looks like you have three terms for ?bear??? Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 1:50 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" I've had a name from an old Otoe treaty (1817) that has always puzzled me. The name is: Wathapayignet - the Small Bear There is no m?nje (bear/black bear) or m?nto (grizzly bear) terms to be found in there. The "small" part is easy enough to pull out of there (yignet = -inye). Then the thought struck me about the Ponca term for bear (wasabe) and how the Ponca "s" can sometimes be the Otoe "th" in cognate terms. This gives me "wathabe" as the term for bear. Now before I run with this, does anyone have anything to back this up? It certainly makes sense and the pieces fit. But I have never seen "wathabe" anywhere as an Otoe word for bear. But if I am right, this would give me: Wathabeinye - Small Bear If I am correct, then I'm thinking that this is an extremely old term. Anyone else come across this before? Sky -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Tue Apr 22 01:46:40 2014 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 01:46:40 +0000 Subject: Aho! (IO -ka in Imperatives) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sky, I was just reading through a text I found on the Ioway-Otoe language web site, under ?Personal Narratives? (Worage), called Hinkuni, or ?Grandmother?, by Julia Small, collected originally by Gordon Marsh in 1936 and retranscribed and retranslated by Jimm Goodtracks. In it, I found the following quoted sentence: ?J?re ?wa ?h^?mi h?e ga.? It is translated as ?This is the one (that?s) surely to kill me.? (Said by a woman who is wandering around lost, upon meeting a grizzly bear) If I am following this correctly, that glosses as: J?re ? This one ?wa ? that is the one who ?h^?mi ? kill me (causative form?) h?e ? potential/future marker ga ? (??) Is this the ?surely? part? Does that glossing seem correct to you? And if so, does the ga at the end have anything to do with the -ka element you?ve been discussing? Thanks, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of John Koontz Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 8:28 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: Aho! (IO -ka in Imperatives) I think the closing quote mark would be glottalization. It should be compared with things that have glottal k, t, or p. Note that Dorsey uses the same opening quotation mark for glottalization of fricative and aspiration with stops (when he marks that). The closing quotation mark is ejective with stops. It's very confusing. I forget which option he uses with glottal stop alone. He calls ejectives "exploded." ________________________________ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 08:11:59 -0500 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Subject: Re: Aho! (IO -ka in Imperatives) To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu I just remembered that I needed to respond to this email so I apologize for the delay! Outlook says I replied but I don't remember doing so...perhaps I started it but had to stop. For Dorsey, the ' character that I used actually looks like a ? (not sure if you can see that...think of a superscripted reversed "c"). Does that help? Last week I had someone come to my office and they were knowledgeable enough to have me bring this up to them. They looked at it and recognized it but couldn't immediately remember the details on it. They said they'd think on it and I expect to follow up with them soon. Your mention of kare/gare perhaps being a male imperative is interesting. I mentioned in another email how this time period (1830-40s) seems to show a shift away from some of the Ponca/Omaha morphemes to today's versions. Perhaps, as you suggested, this could be another. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of John Koontz Sent: Thursday, March 6, 2014 4:16 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! (IO -ka in Imperatives) In k'a what is '? If it is aspiration (opening quote) this sounds a little like the ubiquitous the (th = aspirate) in OP. It actually alternates with the inanimate articles (the ~ khe ~ dhaN ~ ge) and is associated with something like pastness. The alternants indicate something about the "shape" of the action, as they indicate the shape of the noun when they are inanimate articles. (And khe 'long, lying' occurs with animate things like snakes.) I am pretty sure that the sense of these forms in OP is not pastness per se but 'deducibility'. As a set they indicate that the action is deduced to have occurred (in the shape indicated). This contrasts with the ama particle that occurs with reported things (and conditions any preceding plural-proximate marker to be bi instead of I). The "proximate" term is one I have borrowed from Algonquian usage and is not very suitable. The general idea is that the action can be observed to occur and takes place under the independent volition of the third person singular subject. And this is (for some reason) marked with a plural marker on the third person subject. Only Dhegiha has this pattern. But it keeps coming up because I need to explain that a=i is 'he (proximate) said' in most places, even though it looks like 'they said'. There is a non-proximate, or obviative e 'he said', but it is vanishingly rare in texts. The a=i is also 'they said', of course. (The IO analogs of e and a=i are e and a=wi.) We have to be a little careful with associating ga's. Siouan languages are full of forms that look the same and mean something different. In OP ga is the masculine imperative, the "yonder" demonstrative, and the "by striking" instrumental besides the places where it turns up superficially because gi has contracted with a following a. There's also places where aN 'we' is followed by the locative prefix a- 'on' producing aNga-. From your examples I think you are safe in associating the cases of kare where there is an imperative meaning. If you have kare alternating indeterminately with re and in more modern examples completely replaced by re, maybe you just have a case of a historical change in usage observed in progress? I can think of all kinds of things that are somewhat irregular in OP and Da because they are changing and are controlled by the formulas the speaker has heard various others use, by their sense of style as it applies in a specific utterance, and so on. Because there is an male imperative particle ga in OP it is worth wondering if =ka=re originally marked male imperatives in IO. If it works at all like OP (where the female imperative is =a), I would expect re alone to be the female imperative and to condition the a-grade of preceding ablauting e. In other words, the female imperative would be =a=re, and that initial a would replace any preceding e. It might occasionally show up as an extra element if the preceding vowel wasn't e. So in OP =a=di 'in' changes preceding e to a, ppahe ~ ppahadi, and sometimes the a appears in forms like ppamu ~ ppamuadi, tti ~ ttiadi, or sometimes you just get =di and sometimes a preceding e doesn't change either. These last, simpler patterns are, of course, the modern ones. It looks like Whitman says the imperative does condition e > a. So, for what it's worth, that pattern is consistent. Conceivably the IO imperative in the early 1800 was something like the OP one, but with the additional element =re following it. The OP imperative can be extended (for male speakers anyway) by =hau, which is essentially the declarative. Sort of like "yep!" at the end of a sentence, maybe. And sort of like the =re in IO, except that the =re is always there are ends up surviving as the only element visible. As far as female speech forms replacing male speech forms, this is actually something that can happen. Or the reverse. And apart from apparently straight up changes like that, it is also possible that the difference between the two forms was actually something like a strong suggestion (=ka=re) vs. a milder, politer one (=a=re) and men are more culturally enabled to make strong suggestions. However, fashions in these things change continually. In general the sentence final particles are highly unstable in Siouan languages, and even closely related languages (or the same language at different periods) have different systems. It was suggested that ka might be 'yon'. We could even guess that ka (or ga) in an imperative might actually be historically the ga demonstrative, used as an imperative particle. Sort of "eat, that, do it!" I'm kind of reminded of the use of ese in Chicano Spanish, though I think that is more of a male declarative. I've never really figured it out! ________________________________ Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 22:30:11 -0600 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Aho! To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Yes, "naha" is an article going along the lines of "the", "that which", "the one who", etc. You've given me a lot to think about and a lot of terminology that I'll have to wrap my head around since I'm not familiar with it. My assistants and I spent over 3 hours today tracking down all the instances of Merrill and Hamilton's use of this -ga/-ka and mapped them to a grid on a large dry-erase board in an effort to try to find some kind of common element among all of them. Unfortunately we had no luck. We tried to think of everything we could think of when it came to those verbs. Were they transitive or intransitive? Animate or inanimate objects? Singular or plural? Was the object "known" to the speaker (meaning was the speaker referring to something specific...sort of along the lines of the idea of "that" I mentioned earlier)? Of course we know that we aren't looking for every possible criteria since there are many we don't know about (like some of the ideas you mentioned). I've mentioned several of our theories such as "that", "now", "in like manner", etc. But while we were plugging away I was perusing Dorsey's vocabulary slips and found this: k'a (masc) (adverb) - of action in past time, not continuing into the present And the example he gives is: Swagaxe k'a - you did write then (but you do not write now) So in this context, I wonder if perhaps it could be along the lines of (to use an example from before) "Look at the snake" perhaps with the idea that you were looking at the snake before but aren't now and I want you to do so again. This may not be correct though since Dorsey mentions "see also" and has the endings "ke", "ki", etc. so this may represent the end of a statement and not simply an adverb that can be used where needed. Dorsey also has a rather enigmatic term "kare" (or perhaps "k'are") where he mentions "It seems to imply that the thought or desire was not gratified" but he doesn't just list this term with that explanation but rather just uses it with examples such as: Ji kare h?rawi - we thought that he would have come hither (but he did not come) I'm noting that this is after the verb that they want to attach this to which matches the placement of the enigmatic -ga/-ka. So along these lines, perhaps it could be "Look at the snake" with the idea of I wanted you to look at the snake but you didn't so I am requesting/commanding again since you didn't do it before. Yet another couple theories to add to this :). Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of John Koontz Sent: Wednesday, March 5, 2014 9:00 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Aho! I would guess this pair contrasts something analogous to Omaha-Ponca 'to say' vs. 'to say to'. The 'say' stems are highly irregular in Omaha-Ponca like most Siouan, but underlyingly they are something like e=...he vs. e=gi=...he. So the first persons are ehe 'I said it' (from something like Proto-Dhegiha *e=phe) vs. egiphe 'I said (it) to him'. The third persons are a=i 'they said' vs. ega=i 'they said to him'. I've reconstructed the plural from memory of the logic of the system. What I remember is the unpluralized from ege (e=g(i)...(h)e). The gi element is the dative marker of course and the weird thing about (OP) 'say' is that that comes *before* the pronoun. When gi is followed by the root (h)e it contracts with it. I'm not sure the root is really -he in the third person. The first and second persons are clearly built on e=(gi)=...he, but the inclusive is usually from another verb entirely, and the third person behaves like e by itself in the simple stem and e=g(i)=...e in the dative. The initial e= is presumably an incorporated e 'the aforesaid'. And, of course, this is the quoting verb that follows a quotation. There's a form with initial ga 'yonder' that is used preceding a quotation. The third person is essentially always seen as a=(nothing) or a=i or a=bi with the plural-proximate marker following e and conditioning the a-grade of the stem. (So you almost never get a singular looking form, and if you did it would be just e, and so hard to know from a demonstrative e.) The =(nothing) form of the plural-proximate is current now when no other particle follows. Dorsey always has a=i or a=bi (the latter when the quotation is itself quoted in some way). Anyway, making allowances, I hope, for my poor grasp of IO, I make these e=wa-a naha 'the one who says something' vs. e=wa-g(i)-a naha 'the one who says (something) to someone' I hope I correctly remember naha as an article of some sort. If not ... When you add a dative to something then the object is the dative object and the "direct object" sort of falls out of the agreement pattern. Sometimes it hangs around in the sentence as a noun (or quotation) without governing anything in the verb. What the relationalists called a chomeur. ________________________________ I may have found a clue for "ka." Dorsey has the term: e-wa-na-ha - the speaker; the one speaking Then he has the term: e wa-ka-na-ha - the one who is meant; the person addressed I'm not sure how (or even if) this is related to the "ka" I am asking about but I'm trying to look at it in different ways to see if it fits somehow. Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Tue Apr 22 02:16:28 2014 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm Goodtracks) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2014 21:16:28 -0500 Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" In-Reply-To: <80b4d85a3a674062b4880b912829b217@DM2PR08MB525.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: I am in agreement with all said. May I add two things. Dorsey?s ??? in his text is equal to the ?ng? as in ?sing.? So in lieu of he Ioway ?-i?e,? it would be the Otoe/Missouria ?-inge.? Also, IOM does have a cognate to Omaha ?sebe? which is ?s?we? (brown). I have never known it to cover the meaning of ?shawdowed,? as Rory says exists in Omaha. From: Rory Larson Sent: Monday, April 21, 2014 2:12 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" ? What I also find interesting, regardless of which of the above scenarios is correct for this term, is why were two portions of this word ?shifted? to an Otoe-Missouria form (the s to a th and zhinga to ?inye) and not a potential third? Why didn?t the ?b (p)? turn into a ?w? as seen in other cognates? That?s a very good observation, and I think it probably tells us that the word is a loan from Dhegiha, as Jill suggested, not a native Otoe-Missouria form. They would have understood the meaning well enough to change the ?small? word to their own term for ?small?. The shift from /s/ to dental voiceless fricative ?th? may have happened after the name was adopted, or else ?th? may still have been the closest thing to /s/ they had when they adopted it. The main term is apparently analyzable in Dhegiha as wa-sabe, ?the Black One?, based on sabe, meaning ?black?. But in Chiwere, the word for ?black? seems to be thewe, which is presumably cognate to Dhegiha sebe, meaning ?shadowed?. Going off Jimm?s Baxoje Dictionary, it looks like thewe is the only word for ?black? in that language, with no equivalent for Dhegiha sabe. So the term may not even be analyzable in Chiwere. That would mean that they pulled it in as a whole unanalyzed unit, complete with the foreign pronunciation. It would be like one of us, being gifted with the name from Omaha relatives, calling ourselves to other English speakers, ?Little Wasabe? rather than ?Little Blackbear?. ?Little? might have been a standard naming word in Otoe-Missouria that no one cared to mess with, but perhaps as a foreign term Wasabe carried a cachet that might have been lacking if they had translated it into the native Otoe-Missouria word for ?black bear?. Incidentally, I believe that Comanche also adopted the wasabe term for ?black bear? from Dhegiha. Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky Sent: Monday, April 21, 2014 11:50 AM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" I found this while going through some of Dorsey?s names: Wa-?a-?pe yi?-?e, Tciwere notation of the Cegiha, Wasabe ji?ga, Young Black bear. See M??tcinye. He shows this as an Otoe-Missouria Bear Clan name and there isn?t a mention of this individual belonging to another tribe. This list was made about 60+ years after the same name on the 1817 treaty. Could this be the same guy? Possible?especially since he often lists deceased individuals (no mention of that here though). I?d find it unlikely (but not impossible) that the same individual was still alive so I?m thinking that either he was given the name by someone, there was another individual living at that time with the same name, or perhaps he even got it off of the 1817 treaty and just added it to his list. What I find interesting is the ?Tciwere notation of?? statement. I?m trying to figure out if he is trying to indicate that this name is an Otoe-Missouria cognate of the Dhegiha term (as in it was perhaps used regularly) or if it was a one-time thing and this was simply an Otoe-ization of Wasabe Zhinga. Him listing it as a Bear Clan name has me slightly leaning toward the former. What I also find interesting, regardless of which of the above scenarios is correct for this term, is why were two portions of this word ?shifted? to an Otoe-Missouria form (the s to a th and zhinga to ?inye) and not a potential third? Why didn?t the ?b (p)? turn into a ?w? as seen in other cognates? And naturally I didn?t stumble upon this information looking for this specific name?I was looking for something else!! Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 6:02 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Importance: Low Jimm, Very true...I've also seen a handful of names referring to other tribes (Ioway, Pawnee, Pottawatomie, Omaha, etc.). It makes me curious about if this person were from another tribe (at least in part), what the scenario was that allowed them to inherit and/or rise through the ranks to become someone important enough to sign a treaty. Jill, I know what you mean. I've considered the possibility of using variations. I know we only met briefly at Breath of Life last year so I don't know how much of my West Virginia accent/slang came out for you to hear but I do know that it does emerge from time to time (much to my wife's amusement when I say something like "I ain't eat yet" :) ). It's been years since I've lived there but those remnants still bubble to the surface. I think people are often flabbergasted when they find out that I work with languages LOL. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 1:18 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Interesting! Remember that as people like the American dialectologist William Labov taught us, if there are variations in how to pronounce something within a language, it?s rarely the case that anyone uses only one variation always, and the other group only uses the alternate. And the social context can subtly affect which one is chosen, even below the conscious level of the speaker. So, New York City speakers from a working class neighborhood might use the classic ?r? dropping X percent of the time, say 65% (John Boyle can probably remember this exactly), while middle class folks might only ?drop their [r]? 30%, and upper class folks might only have it 5% of the time, just as an example. It always seemed to me since so many Otoe-Missouria had Ioway kin (and vice versa) that an absolute 100% consistency in using the alternate forms (like the inye vs. inge example here) would be very unlikely. So beyond the possible differences in the persons? hearing and transcription, it might have been perfectly acceptable to pronounce the name both ways, at the same point in time. (In this part of SW Missouri, Sky, your last name would traditionally be said more like the desert animal, Camel J; we had dear neighbors who I knew only by hearing their names spoken, and was surprised to find out later that the spelling had not one but two ?silent letters?). Then a new girl of the same surname came to school, and she pronounced it Cam-bell, (still the silent p), so I added that variation for her name, but that didn?t change the way I addressed the older folks at church.... Best, Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 3:00 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Found this in the next treaty (1825) while trying to figure out yet another name LOL. Waw-zob-e-ing-ge And once I saw it, I remembered seeing it before. Now I have a shift from "th" to "z" in a span of 8 years and it has me questioning if "ignet" was actually supposed to represent -inye or -inge. If the first one was in face -inye then here you have another shift to -inge. Presumably this same individual was there to pronounce his name for whoever was writing it down. And if so, he changed 1 (and maybe 2) part of his name. A number of scenarios come to mind for the change (perhaps another one of the signers pronounced it for him) but it would still be nice to get this sorted out :). Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:27 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Whoops - I meant Dhegiha there. Sorry all! Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:22 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Good point Sky - Of course, there could be lots of alternative words for many things that we just don?t have examples, so this is exciting. Names are always fascinating. I must be getting hunger this afternoon, because Wasabi is a Japanese restaurant in town here, and the thought of wonderful hot horseradish came to my mind when your Otoe word was on the screen? J Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:12 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" That?s a very good point, Jill, and well taken. Yes, there is an equivalent name, at least in the Thatada clan, which is Wasabe-zhi?ga. If the term Sky found is a borrowing, it shows that understanding between the two groups at the time was good enough to cause Dhegiha ?s? to shift forward to Otoe ?th?, and for the Dhegiha ?small? term (zhi?ga) to be replaced by Otoe i?e, as Sky has just noted. But I think either of those are quite possible and likely, so we might want more evidence from Otoe before we conclude that this ?bear? term was generally used in Otoe. Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:52 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Sky and Rory, Great posts - one thing to consider also is that it?s actually not an Otoe word per se. It?s possible for entire names to have been borrowed across tribes (or bestowed, think of the intertribal peace-making child adoption tradition of the Pipe Dance (Calumet in some soures), with the Beloved Child (it could be a girl or a boy) undergoing an elaborate ceremony. People might have multiple names (family kin name, clan name, later a name from an accomplishment, plus nicknames [?uncle names?]. Is there a similar name in Dhegiha groups? Best, Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:43 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Sky, The wasabe term is not just Ponca; it?s Omaha, Kaw and (as wasape) Osage as well. I assume it?s common Dhegiha. It refers to the black bear, as opposed to the m?nto-equivalent term for ?grizzly bear?. I?m sure you?re entirely right that the ?Wathapay? part of that name is an Otoe equivalent of Dhegiha *wasape. It looks like the ?ignet? must have been written by a Frenchman; it kind of threw me a little at first. :) Anyway, if the *wasape term was not known from Otoe before, that?s a great catch! So it looks like you have three terms for ?bear??? Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 1:50 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" I've had a name from an old Otoe treaty (1817) that has always puzzled me. The name is: Wathapayignet - the Small Bear There is no m?nje (bear/black bear) or m?nto (grizzly bear) terms to be found in there. The "small" part is easy enough to pull out of there (yignet = -inye). Then the thought struck me about the Ponca term for bear (wasabe) and how the Ponca "s" can sometimes be the Otoe "th" in cognate terms. This gives me "wathabe" as the term for bear. Now before I run with this, does anyone have anything to back this up? It certainly makes sense and the pieces fit. But I have never seen "wathabe" anywhere as an Otoe word for bear. But if I am right, this would give me: Wathabeinye - Small Bear If I am correct, then I'm thinking that this is an extremely old term. Anyone else come across this before? Sky -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com ?? -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 11974 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG Tue Apr 22 14:01:11 2014 From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 09:01:11 -0500 Subject: Aho! (IO -ka in Imperatives) In-Reply-To: <78aeeae7cadc4b26816ddf3f9dbfc05a@DM2PR08MB525.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: I?m not sure what that ?ga? is doing there. Dorsey something similar to that but he describes it as a masculine term that means ?adv. of action in past time, not continuing into the present.? However I do have something else which says that ?ga? is a female exclamation saying ?Here it is? or ?Take it.? The use of it isn?t in a sentence but just a standalone ?Ga!? (male version being ?Go!?). So at this point I don?t know if this can be placed at the end of a sentence to exclaim something along the lines of ?here it is.? It would sure seem to fit this scenario though. Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Monday, April 21, 2014 8:47 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! (IO -ka in Imperatives) Sky, I was just reading through a text I found on the Ioway-Otoe language web site, under ?Personal Narratives? (Worage), called Hinkuni, or ?Grandmother?, by Julia Small, collected originally by Gordon Marsh in 1936 and retranscribed and retranslated by Jimm Goodtracks. In it, I found the following quoted sentence: ?J?re ?wa ?h^?mi h?e ga.? It is translated as ?This is the one (that?s) surely to kill me.? (Said by a woman who is wandering around lost, upon meeting a grizzly bear) If I am following this correctly, that glosses as: J?re ? This one ?wa ? that is the one who ?h^?mi ? kill me (causative form?) h?e ? potential/future marker ga ? (??) Is this the ?surely? part? Does that glossing seem correct to you? And if so, does the ga at the end have anything to do with the -ka element you?ve been discussing? Thanks, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of John Koontz Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 8:28 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: Aho! (IO -ka in Imperatives) I think the closing quote mark would be glottalization. It should be compared with things that have glottal k, t, or p. Note that Dorsey uses the same opening quotation mark for glottalization of fricative and aspiration with stops (when he marks that). The closing quotation mark is ejective with stops. It's very confusing. I forget which option he uses with glottal stop alone. He calls ejectives "exploded." ________________________________ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 08:11:59 -0500 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Subject: Re: Aho! (IO -ka in Imperatives) To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu I just remembered that I needed to respond to this email so I apologize for the delay! Outlook says I replied but I don't remember doing so...perhaps I started it but had to stop. For Dorsey, the ' character that I used actually looks like a ? (not sure if you can see that...think of a superscripted reversed "c"). Does that help? Last week I had someone come to my office and they were knowledgeable enough to have me bring this up to them. They looked at it and recognized it but couldn't immediately remember the details on it. They said they'd think on it and I expect to follow up with them soon. Your mention of kare/gare perhaps being a male imperative is interesting. I mentioned in another email how this time period (1830-40s) seems to show a shift away from some of the Ponca/Omaha morphemes to today's versions. Perhaps, as you suggested, this could be another. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of John Koontz Sent: Thursday, March 6, 2014 4:16 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! (IO -ka in Imperatives) In k'a what is '? If it is aspiration (opening quote) this sounds a little like the ubiquitous the (th = aspirate) in OP. It actually alternates with the inanimate articles (the ~ khe ~ dhaN ~ ge) and is associated with something like pastness. The alternants indicate something about the "shape" of the action, as they indicate the shape of the noun when they are inanimate articles. (And khe 'long, lying' occurs with animate things like snakes.) I am pretty sure that the sense of these forms in OP is not pastness per se but 'deducibility'. As a set they indicate that the action is deduced to have occurred (in the shape indicated). This contrasts with the ama particle that occurs with reported things (and conditions any preceding plural-proximate marker to be bi instead of I). The "proximate" term is one I have borrowed from Algonquian usage and is not very suitable. The general idea is that the action can be observed to occur and takes place under the independent volition of the third person singular subject. And this is (for some reason) marked with a plural marker on the third person subject. Only Dhegiha has this pattern. But it keeps coming up because I need to explain that a=i is 'he (proximate) said' in most places, even though it looks like 'they said'. There is a non-proximate, or obviative e 'he said', but it is vanishingly rare in texts. The a=i is also 'they said', of course. (The IO analogs of e and a=i are e and a=wi.) We have to be a little careful with associating ga's. Siouan languages are full of forms that look the same and mean something different. In OP ga is the masculine imperative, the "yonder" demonstrative, and the "by striking" instrumental besides the places where it turns up superficially because gi has contracted with a following a. There's also places where aN 'we' is followed by the locative prefix a- 'on' producing aNga-. From your examples I think you are safe in associating the cases of kare where there is an imperative meaning. If you have kare alternating indeterminately with re and in more modern examples completely replaced by re, maybe you just have a case of a historical change in usage observed in progress? I can think of all kinds of things that are somewhat irregular in OP and Da because they are changing and are controlled by the formulas the speaker has heard various others use, by their sense of style as it applies in a specific utterance, and so on. Because there is an male imperative particle ga in OP it is worth wondering if =ka=re originally marked male imperatives in IO. If it works at all like OP (where the female imperative is =a), I would expect re alone to be the female imperative and to condition the a-grade of preceding ablauting e. In other words, the female imperative would be =a=re, and that initial a would replace any preceding e. It might occasionally show up as an extra element if the preceding vowel wasn't e. So in OP =a=di 'in' changes preceding e to a, ppahe ~ ppahadi, and sometimes the a appears in forms like ppamu ~ ppamuadi, tti ~ ttiadi, or sometimes you just get =di and sometimes a preceding e doesn't change either. These last, simpler patterns are, of course, the modern ones. It looks like Whitman says the imperative does condition e > a. So, for what it's worth, that pattern is consistent. Conceivably the IO imperative in the early 1800 was something like the OP one, but with the additional element =re following it. The OP imperative can be extended (for male speakers anyway) by =hau, which is essentially the declarative. Sort of like "yep!" at the end of a sentence, maybe. And sort of like the =re in IO, except that the =re is always there are ends up surviving as the only element visible. As far as female speech forms replacing male speech forms, this is actually something that can happen. Or the reverse. And apart from apparently straight up changes like that, it is also possible that the difference between the two forms was actually something like a strong suggestion (=ka=re) vs. a milder, politer one (=a=re) and men are more culturally enabled to make strong suggestions. However, fashions in these things change continually. In general the sentence final particles are highly unstable in Siouan languages, and even closely related languages (or the same language at different periods) have different systems. It was suggested that ka might be 'yon'. We could even guess that ka (or ga) in an imperative might actually be historically the ga demonstrative, used as an imperative particle. Sort of "eat, that, do it!" I'm kind of reminded of the use of ese in Chicano Spanish, though I think that is more of a male declarative. I've never really figured it out! ________________________________ Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 22:30:11 -0600 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Aho! To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Yes, "naha" is an article going along the lines of "the", "that which", "the one who", etc. You've given me a lot to think about and a lot of terminology that I'll have to wrap my head around since I'm not familiar with it. My assistants and I spent over 3 hours today tracking down all the instances of Merrill and Hamilton's use of this -ga/-ka and mapped them to a grid on a large dry-erase board in an effort to try to find some kind of common element among all of them. Unfortunately we had no luck. We tried to think of everything we could think of when it came to those verbs. Were they transitive or intransitive? Animate or inanimate objects? Singular or plural? Was the object "known" to the speaker (meaning was the speaker referring to something specific...sort of along the lines of the idea of "that" I mentioned earlier)? Of course we know that we aren't looking for every possible criteria since there are many we don't know about (like some of the ideas you mentioned). I've mentioned several of our theories such as "that", "now", "in like manner", etc. But while we were plugging away I was perusing Dorsey's vocabulary slips and found this: k'a (masc) (adverb) - of action in past time, not continuing into the present And the example he gives is: Swagaxe k'a - you did write then (but you do not write now) So in this context, I wonder if perhaps it could be along the lines of (to use an example from before) "Look at the snake" perhaps with the idea that you were looking at the snake before but aren't now and I want you to do so again. This may not be correct though since Dorsey mentions "see also" and has the endings "ke", "ki", etc. so this may represent the end of a statement and not simply an adverb that can be used where needed. Dorsey also has a rather enigmatic term "kare" (or perhaps "k'are") where he mentions "It seems to imply that the thought or desire was not gratified" but he doesn't just list this term with that explanation but rather just uses it with examples such as: Ji kare h?rawi - we thought that he would have come hither (but he did not come) I'm noting that this is after the verb that they want to attach this to which matches the placement of the enigmatic -ga/-ka. So along these lines, perhaps it could be "Look at the snake" with the idea of I wanted you to look at the snake but you didn't so I am requesting/commanding again since you didn't do it before. Yet another couple theories to add to this :). Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of John Koontz Sent: Wednesday, March 5, 2014 9:00 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Aho! I would guess this pair contrasts something analogous to Omaha-Ponca 'to say' vs. 'to say to'. The 'say' stems are highly irregular in Omaha-Ponca like most Siouan, but underlyingly they are something like e=...he vs. e=gi=...he. So the first persons are ehe 'I said it' (from something like Proto-Dhegiha *e=phe) vs. egiphe 'I said (it) to him'. The third persons are a=i 'they said' vs. ega=i 'they said to him'. I've reconstructed the plural from memory of the logic of the system. What I remember is the unpluralized from ege (e=g(i)...(h)e). The gi element is the dative marker of course and the weird thing about (OP) 'say' is that that comes *before* the pronoun. When gi is followed by the root (h)e it contracts with it. I'm not sure the root is really -he in the third person. The first and second persons are clearly built on e=(gi)=...he, but the inclusive is usually from another verb entirely, and the third person behaves like e by itself in the simple stem and e=g(i)=...e in the dative. The initial e= is presumably an incorporated e 'the aforesaid'. And, of course, this is the quoting verb that follows a quotation. There's a form with initial ga 'yonder' that is used preceding a quotation. The third person is essentially always seen as a=(nothing) or a=i or a=bi with the plural-proximate marker following e and conditioning the a-grade of the stem. (So you almost never get a singular looking form, and if you did it would be just e, and so hard to know from a demonstrative e.) The =(nothing) form of the plural-proximate is current now when no other particle follows. Dorsey always has a=i or a=bi (the latter when the quotation is itself quoted in some way). Anyway, making allowances, I hope, for my poor grasp of IO, I make these e=wa-a naha 'the one who says something' vs. e=wa-g(i)-a naha 'the one who says (something) to someone' I hope I correctly remember naha as an article of some sort. If not ... When you add a dative to something then the object is the dative object and the "direct object" sort of falls out of the agreement pattern. Sometimes it hangs around in the sentence as a noun (or quotation) without governing anything in the verb. What the relationalists called a chomeur. ________________________________ I may have found a clue for "ka." Dorsey has the term: e-wa-na-ha - the speaker; the one speaking Then he has the term: e wa-ka-na-ha - the one who is meant; the person addressed I'm not sure how (or even if) this is related to the "ka" I am asking about but I'm trying to look at it in different ways to see if it fits somehow. Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Tue Apr 22 16:54:40 2014 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 16:54:40 +0000 Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" In-Reply-To: <17A5BE697FAA4451BDC7A4EFCF54C129@AsusLaptop> Message-ID: Jimm, is that ?s?we? or ???we?? I looked it up in your dictionary, and found it under ???we?. Or is there no difference between /s/ and /?/ in IOM? From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Monday, April 21, 2014 9:16 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" I am in agreement with all said. May I add two things. Dorsey?s ??? in his text is equal to the ?ng? as in ?sing.? So in lieu of he Ioway ?-i?e,? it would be the Otoe/Missouria ?-inge.? Also, IOM does have a cognate to Omaha ?sebe? which is ?s?we? (brown). I have never known it to cover the meaning of ?shawdowed,? as Rory says exists in Omaha. From: Rory Larson Sent: Monday, April 21, 2014 2:12 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" ? What I also find interesting, regardless of which of the above scenarios is correct for this term, is why were two portions of this word ?shifted? to an Otoe-Missouria form (the s to a th and zhinga to ?inye) and not a potential third? Why didn?t the ?b (p)? turn into a ?w? as seen in other cognates? That?s a very good observation, and I think it probably tells us that the word is a loan from Dhegiha, as Jill suggested, not a native Otoe-Missouria form. They would have understood the meaning well enough to change the ?small? word to their own term for ?small?. The shift from /s/ to dental voiceless fricative ?th? may have happened after the name was adopted, or else ?th? may still have been the closest thing to /s/ they had when they adopted it. The main term is apparently analyzable in Dhegiha as wa-sabe, ?the Black One?, based on sabe, meaning ?black?. But in Chiwere, the word for ?black? seems to be thewe, which is presumably cognate to Dhegiha sebe, meaning ?shadowed?. Going off Jimm?s Baxoje Dictionary, it looks like thewe is the only word for ?black? in that language, with no equivalent for Dhegiha sabe. So the term may not even be analyzable in Chiwere. That would mean that they pulled it in as a whole unanalyzed unit, complete with the foreign pronunciation. It would be like one of us, being gifted with the name from Omaha relatives, calling ourselves to other English speakers, ?Little Wasabe? rather than ?Little Blackbear?. ?Little? might have been a standard naming word in Otoe-Missouria that no one cared to mess with, but perhaps as a foreign term Wasabe carried a cachet that might have been lacking if they had translated it into the native Otoe-Missouria word for ?black bear?. Incidentally, I believe that Comanche also adopted the wasabe term for ?black bear? from Dhegiha. Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky Sent: Monday, April 21, 2014 11:50 AM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" I found this while going through some of Dorsey?s names: Wa-?a-?pe yi?-?e, Tciwere notation of the Cegiha, Wasabe ji?ga, Young Black bear. See M??tcinye. He shows this as an Otoe-Missouria Bear Clan name and there isn?t a mention of this individual belonging to another tribe. This list was made about 60+ years after the same name on the 1817 treaty. Could this be the same guy? Possible?especially since he often lists deceased individuals (no mention of that here though). I?d find it unlikely (but not impossible) that the same individual was still alive so I?m thinking that either he was given the name by someone, there was another individual living at that time with the same name, or perhaps he even got it off of the 1817 treaty and just added it to his list. What I find interesting is the ?Tciwere notation of?? statement. I?m trying to figure out if he is trying to indicate that this name is an Otoe-Missouria cognate of the Dhegiha term (as in it was perhaps used regularly) or if it was a one-time thing and this was simply an Otoe-ization of Wasabe Zhinga. Him listing it as a Bear Clan name has me slightly leaning toward the former. What I also find interesting, regardless of which of the above scenarios is correct for this term, is why were two portions of this word ?shifted? to an Otoe-Missouria form (the s to a th and zhinga to ?inye) and not a potential third? Why didn?t the ?b (p)? turn into a ?w? as seen in other cognates? And naturally I didn?t stumble upon this information looking for this specific name?I was looking for something else!! [Wathabeinye.jpg] Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 6:02 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Importance: Low Jimm, Very true...I've also seen a handful of names referring to other tribes (Ioway, Pawnee, Pottawatomie, Omaha, etc.). It makes me curious about if this person were from another tribe (at least in part), what the scenario was that allowed them to inherit and/or rise through the ranks to become someone important enough to sign a treaty. Jill, I know what you mean. I've considered the possibility of using variations. I know we only met briefly at Breath of Life last year so I don't know how much of my West Virginia accent/slang came out for you to hear but I do know that it does emerge from time to time (much to my wife's amusement when I say something like "I ain't eat yet" :) ). It's been years since I've lived there but those remnants still bubble to the surface. I think people are often flabbergasted when they find out that I work with languages LOL. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 1:18 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Interesting! Remember that as people like the American dialectologist William Labov taught us, if there are variations in how to pronounce something within a language, it?s rarely the case that anyone uses only one variation always, and the other group only uses the alternate. And the social context can subtly affect which one is chosen, even below the conscious level of the speaker. So, New York City speakers from a working class neighborhood might use the classic ?r? dropping X percent of the time, say 65% (John Boyle can probably remember this exactly), while middle class folks might only ?drop their [r]? 30%, and upper class folks might only have it 5% of the time, just as an example. It always seemed to me since so many Otoe-Missouria had Ioway kin (and vice versa) that an absolute 100% consistency in using the alternate forms (like the inye vs. inge example here) would be very unlikely. So beyond the possible differences in the persons? hearing and transcription, it might have been perfectly acceptable to pronounce the name both ways, at the same point in time. (In this part of SW Missouri, Sky, your last name would traditionally be said more like the desert animal, Camel ?; we had dear neighbors who I knew only by hearing their names spoken, and was surprised to find out later that the spelling had not one but two ?silent letters?). Then a new girl of the same surname came to school, and she pronounced it Cam-bell, (still the silent p), so I added that variation for her name, but that didn?t change the way I addressed the older folks at church.... Best, Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 3:00 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Found this in the next treaty (1825) while trying to figure out yet another name LOL. Waw-zob-e-ing-ge And once I saw it, I remembered seeing it before. Now I have a shift from "th" to "z" in a span of 8 years and it has me questioning if "ignet" was actually supposed to represent -inye or -inge. If the first one was in face -inye then here you have another shift to -inge. Presumably this same individual was there to pronounce his name for whoever was writing it down. And if so, he changed 1 (and maybe 2) part of his name. A number of scenarios come to mind for the change (perhaps another one of the signers pronounced it for him) but it would still be nice to get this sorted out :). Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:27 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Whoops - I meant Dhegiha there. Sorry all! Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:22 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Good point Sky - Of course, there could be lots of alternative words for many things that we just don?t have examples, so this is exciting. Names are always fascinating. I must be getting hunger this afternoon, because Wasabi is a Japanese restaurant in town here, and the thought of wonderful hot horseradish came to my mind when your Otoe word was on the screen? ? Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:12 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" That?s a very good point, Jill, and well taken. Yes, there is an equivalent name, at least in the Thatada clan, which is Wasabe-zhi?ga. If the term Sky found is a borrowing, it shows that understanding between the two groups at the time was good enough to cause Dhegiha ?s? to shift forward to Otoe ?th?, and for the Dhegiha ?small? term (zhi?ga) to be replaced by Otoe i?e, as Sky has just noted. But I think either of those are quite possible and likely, so we might want more evidence from Otoe before we conclude that this ?bear? term was generally used in Otoe. Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:52 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Sky and Rory, Great posts - one thing to consider also is that it?s actually not an Otoe word per se. It?s possible for entire names to have been borrowed across tribes (or bestowed, think of the intertribal peace-making child adoption tradition of the Pipe Dance (Calumet in some soures), with the Beloved Child (it could be a girl or a boy) undergoing an elaborate ceremony. People might have multiple names (family kin name, clan name, later a name from an accomplishment, plus nicknames [?uncle names?]. Is there a similar name in Dhegiha groups? Best, Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:43 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Sky, The wasabe term is not just Ponca; it?s Omaha, Kaw and (as wasape) Osage as well. I assume it?s common Dhegiha. It refers to the black bear, as opposed to the m?nto-equivalent term for ?grizzly bear?. I?m sure you?re entirely right that the ?Wathapay? part of that name is an Otoe equivalent of Dhegiha *wasape. It looks like the ?ignet? must have been written by a Frenchman; it kind of threw me a little at first. :) Anyway, if the *wasape term was not known from Otoe before, that?s a great catch! So it looks like you have three terms for ?bear??? Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 1:50 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" I've had a name from an old Otoe treaty (1817) that has always puzzled me. The name is: Wathapayignet - the Small Bear There is no m?nje (bear/black bear) or m?nto (grizzly bear) terms to be found in there. The "small" part is easy enough to pull out of there (yignet = -inye). Then the thought struck me about the Ponca term for bear (wasabe) and how the Ponca "s" can sometimes be the Otoe "th" in cognate terms. This gives me "wathabe" as the term for bear. Now before I run with this, does anyone have anything to back this up? It certainly makes sense and the pieces fit. But I have never seen "wathabe" anywhere as an Otoe word for bear. But if I am right, this would give me: Wathabeinye - Small Bear If I am correct, then I'm thinking that this is an extremely old term. Anyone else come across this before? Sky -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com ?? -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 11974 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Tue Apr 22 20:14:35 2014 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm Goodtracks) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 15:14:35 -0500 Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" In-Reply-To: <539ba22b02244f6ea1126b4a7b727b38@DM2PR08MB525.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Rory: They are both correct ?s?we? or ???we?. The difference is that the OM tend to pronounce a ?s? while the Ioway tend to pronounce a ??? ~ sh??. The distinction is not clear cut, as there have been informants who tend to use the ??? ~ sh?? at times and in certain words. Maybe once upon a time, it was an OM vs. I difference. So then, in the dictionary, such a word as we have here maybe be heard to be pronounced ?s?we? or ???we?. Now Dorsey also uses the ?s? and ?sh.? The former usually represents the ?th? while the latter represents the ?s? sound. From: Rory Larson Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 11:54 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Jimm, is that ?s?we? or ???we?? I looked it up in your dictionary, and found it under ???we?. Or is there no difference between /s/ and /?/ in IOM? From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Monday, April 21, 2014 9:16 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" I am in agreement with all said. May I add two things. Dorsey?s ??? in his text is equal to the ?ng? as in ?sing.? So in lieu of he Ioway ?-i?e,? it would be the Otoe/Missouria ?-inge.? Also, IOM does have a cognate to Omaha ?sebe? which is ?s?we? (brown). I have never known it to cover the meaning of ?shawdowed,? as Rory says exists in Omaha. From: Rory Larson Sent: Monday, April 21, 2014 2:12 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" ? What I also find interesting, regardless of which of the above scenarios is correct for this term, is why were two portions of this word ?shifted? to an Otoe-Missouria form (the s to a th and zhinga to ?inye) and not a potential third? Why didn?t the ?b (p)? turn into a ?w? as seen in other cognates? That?s a very good observation, and I think it probably tells us that the word is a loan from Dhegiha, as Jill suggested, not a native Otoe-Missouria form. They would have understood the meaning well enough to change the ?small? word to their own term for ?small?. The shift from /s/ to dental voiceless fricative ?th? may have happened after the name was adopted, or else ?th? may still have been the closest thing to /s/ they had when they adopted it. The main term is apparently analyzable in Dhegiha as wa-sabe, ?the Black One?, based on sabe, meaning ?black?. But in Chiwere, the word for ?black? seems to be thewe, which is presumably cognate to Dhegiha sebe, meaning ?shadowed?. Going off Jimm?s Baxoje Dictionary, it looks like thewe is the only word for ?black? in that language, with no equivalent for Dhegiha sabe. So the term may not even be analyzable in Chiwere. That would mean that they pulled it in as a whole unanalyzed unit, complete with the foreign pronunciation. It would be like one of us, being gifted with the name from Omaha relatives, calling ourselves to other English speakers, ?Little Wasabe? rather than ?Little Blackbear?. ?Little? might have been a standard naming word in Otoe-Missouria that no one cared to mess with, but perhaps as a foreign term Wasabe carried a cachet that might have been lacking if they had translated it into the native Otoe-Missouria word for ?black bear?. Incidentally, I believe that Comanche also adopted the wasabe term for ?black bear? from Dhegiha. Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky Sent: Monday, April 21, 2014 11:50 AM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" I found this while going through some of Dorsey?s names: Wa-?a-?pe yi?-?e, Tciwere notation of the Cegiha, Wasabe ji?ga, Young Black bear. See M??tcinye. He shows this as an Otoe-Missouria Bear Clan name and there isn?t a mention of this individual belonging to another tribe. This list was made about 60+ years after the same name on the 1817 treaty. Could this be the same guy? Possible?especially since he often lists deceased individuals (no mention of that here though). I?d find it unlikely (but not impossible) that the same individual was still alive so I?m thinking that either he was given the name by someone, there was another individual living at that time with the same name, or perhaps he even got it off of the 1817 treaty and just added it to his list. What I find interesting is the ?Tciwere notation of?? statement. I?m trying to figure out if he is trying to indicate that this name is an Otoe-Missouria cognate of the Dhegiha term (as in it was perhaps used regularly) or if it was a one-time thing and this was simply an Otoe-ization of Wasabe Zhinga. Him listing it as a Bear Clan name has me slightly leaning toward the former. What I also find interesting, regardless of which of the above scenarios is correct for this term, is why were two portions of this word ?shifted? to an Otoe-Missouria form (the s to a th and zhinga to ?inye) and not a potential third? Why didn?t the ?b (p)? turn into a ?w? as seen in other cognates? And naturally I didn?t stumble upon this information looking for this specific name?I was looking for something else!! Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 6:02 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Importance: Low Jimm, Very true...I've also seen a handful of names referring to other tribes (Ioway, Pawnee, Pottawatomie, Omaha, etc.). It makes me curious about if this person were from another tribe (at least in part), what the scenario was that allowed them to inherit and/or rise through the ranks to become someone important enough to sign a treaty. Jill, I know what you mean. I've considered the possibility of using variations. I know we only met briefly at Breath of Life last year so I don't know how much of my West Virginia accent/slang came out for you to hear but I do know that it does emerge from time to time (much to my wife's amusement when I say something like "I ain't eat yet" :) ). It's been years since I've lived there but those remnants still bubble to the surface. I think people are often flabbergasted when they find out that I work with languages LOL. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 1:18 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Interesting! Remember that as people like the American dialectologist William Labov taught us, if there are variations in how to pronounce something within a language, it?s rarely the case that anyone uses only one variation always, and the other group only uses the alternate. And the social context can subtly affect which one is chosen, even below the conscious level of the speaker. So, New York City speakers from a working class neighborhood might use the classic ?r? dropping X percent of the time, say 65% (John Boyle can probably remember this exactly), while middle class folks might only ?drop their [r]? 30%, and upper class folks might only have it 5% of the time, just as an example. It always seemed to me since so many Otoe-Missouria had Ioway kin (and vice versa) that an absolute 100% consistency in using the alternate forms (like the inye vs. inge example here) would be very unlikely. So beyond the possible differences in the persons? hearing and transcription, it might have been perfectly acceptable to pronounce the name both ways, at the same point in time. (In this part of SW Missouri, Sky, your last name would traditionally be said more like the desert animal, Camel J; we had dear neighbors who I knew only by hearing their names spoken, and was surprised to find out later that the spelling had not one but two ?silent letters?). Then a new girl of the same surname came to school, and she pronounced it Cam-bell, (still the silent p), so I added that variation for her name, but that didn?t change the way I addressed the older folks at church.... Best, Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 3:00 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Found this in the next treaty (1825) while trying to figure out yet another name LOL. Waw-zob-e-ing-ge And once I saw it, I remembered seeing it before. Now I have a shift from "th" to "z" in a span of 8 years and it has me questioning if "ignet" was actually supposed to represent -inye or -inge. If the first one was in face -inye then here you have another shift to -inge. Presumably this same individual was there to pronounce his name for whoever was writing it down. And if so, he changed 1 (and maybe 2) part of his name. A number of scenarios come to mind for the change (perhaps another one of the signers pronounced it for him) but it would still be nice to get this sorted out :). Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:27 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Whoops - I meant Dhegiha there. Sorry all! Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:22 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Good point Sky - Of course, there could be lots of alternative words for many things that we just don?t have examples, so this is exciting. Names are always fascinating. I must be getting hunger this afternoon, because Wasabi is a Japanese restaurant in town here, and the thought of wonderful hot horseradish came to my mind when your Otoe word was on the screen? J Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:12 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" That?s a very good point, Jill, and well taken. Yes, there is an equivalent name, at least in the Thatada clan, which is Wasabe-zhi?ga. If the term Sky found is a borrowing, it shows that understanding between the two groups at the time was good enough to cause Dhegiha ?s? to shift forward to Otoe ?th?, and for the Dhegiha ?small? term (zhi?ga) to be replaced by Otoe i?e, as Sky has just noted. But I think either of those are quite possible and likely, so we might want more evidence from Otoe before we conclude that this ?bear? term was generally used in Otoe. Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:52 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Sky and Rory, Great posts - one thing to consider also is that it?s actually not an Otoe word per se. It?s possible for entire names to have been borrowed across tribes (or bestowed, think of the intertribal peace-making child adoption tradition of the Pipe Dance (Calumet in some soures), with the Beloved Child (it could be a girl or a boy) undergoing an elaborate ceremony. People might have multiple names (family kin name, clan name, later a name from an accomplishment, plus nicknames [?uncle names?]. Is there a similar name in Dhegiha groups? Best, Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:43 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Sky, The wasabe term is not just Ponca; it?s Omaha, Kaw and (as wasape) Osage as well. I assume it?s common Dhegiha. It refers to the black bear, as opposed to the m?nto-equivalent term for ?grizzly bear?. I?m sure you?re entirely right that the ?Wathapay? part of that name is an Otoe equivalent of Dhegiha *wasape. It looks like the ?ignet? must have been written by a Frenchman; it kind of threw me a little at first. :) Anyway, if the *wasape term was not known from Otoe before, that?s a great catch! So it looks like you have three terms for ?bear??? Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 1:50 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" I've had a name from an old Otoe treaty (1817) that has always puzzled me. The name is: Wathapayignet - the Small Bear There is no m?nje (bear/black bear) or m?nto (grizzly bear) terms to be found in there. The "small" part is easy enough to pull out of there (yignet = -inye). Then the thought struck me about the Ponca term for bear (wasabe) and how the Ponca "s" can sometimes be the Otoe "th" in cognate terms. This gives me "wathabe" as the term for bear. Now before I run with this, does anyone have anything to back this up? It certainly makes sense and the pieces fit. But I have never seen "wathabe" anywhere as an Otoe word for bear. But if I am right, this would give me: Wathabeinye - Small Bear If I am correct, then I'm thinking that this is an extremely old term. Anyone else come across this before? Sky -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com ?? -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 11974 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Wed Apr 23 01:36:31 2014 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2014 01:36:31 +0000 Subject: Terms for 'black' in MVS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, Jimm. That?s pretty much what I was thinking. I believe the original Siouan sound here was /?/, and some speakers, especially the Otoe-Missouria, have shifted it forward to something more like /s/. At the same time, the original Siouan /s/ has also shifted forward in IOM to something like /?/, ?thorn?, or what we write ?th?. So Omaha ?s? would correspond to IOM ?th?, and IOM ?s? or ?sh? would correspond to Omaha ?sh?. According to the CSD, we seem to have about four or five different words for ?black? in Siouan, which are all related to each other by a couple of sound alternations. First, we have alternation in the main vowel between /e/ and /a/, which gives us two alternative forms of ?black?: *sepe *sape Within MVS, Hochank and IOM chose *sepe as their basic word for ?black?, while Dakotan and Dhegiha chose *sape. However, Dhegiha at least preserved *sepe as an alternate ?black? term in rare cases. Bob Rankin found a s?we term for ?black? in Quapaw, and in Omaha the name of one of our speakers is Mi-sebe, meaning ?Dark of the Moon?. She and her sister made it very clear to us that the sebe part of this is not the ?black? word, s?be. They say that s?be is its own word meaning ?shadowy?, and in this case refers to the part of the moon that is dark when the moon is not full. I don?t know that I?ve ever run into the term outside of this case in Omaha, so perhaps it is preserved there mainly because it appears in a name. Second, these two ?black? words were both given alternates via Siouan fricative ablaut. The initial /s/ could be changed to /?/ to give the idea of an ?off-black?, or ?dark?: *sepe => *?epe *sape => *?ape In Dhegiha, the *?ape term means ?dark (colored)?, and in Dakotan it means ?dirty?, both in contrast to *sape, meaning ?black?. In IOM and Hochank, the *?epe term means ?dark?, ?suntanned? or ?brown? in contrast to *sepe, ?black?. So we get a comparative matrix that looks something like this: ?black? ?off-black? MVS *sepe => *?epe Ho s?ep => ??ep (?dark?, ?suntanned?) IOM thewe => sewe or ?ewe (?brown?) OP sebe (?shadowy?) MVS *sape => *?ape OP sabe => ?abe (?dark?) Da sapA => ?apA (?dirty?) Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 3:15 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Rory: They are both correct ?s?we? or ???we?. The difference is that the OM tend to pronounce a ?s? while the Ioway tend to pronounce a ??? ~ sh??. The distinction is not clear cut, as there have been informants who tend to use the ??? ~ sh?? at times and in certain words. Maybe once upon a time, it was an OM vs. I difference. So then, in the dictionary, such a word as we have here maybe be heard to be pronounced ?s?we? or ???we?. Now Dorsey also uses the ?s? and ?sh.? The former usually represents the ?th? while the latter represents the ?s? sound. From: Rory Larson Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 11:54 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Jimm, is that ?s?we? or ???we?? I looked it up in your dictionary, and found it under ???we?. Or is there no difference between /s/ and /?/ in IOM? From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Monday, April 21, 2014 9:16 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" I am in agreement with all said. May I add two things. Dorsey?s ??? in his text is equal to the ?ng? as in ?sing.? So in lieu of he Ioway ?-i?e,? it would be the Otoe/Missouria ?-inge.? Also, IOM does have a cognate to Omaha ?sebe? which is ?s?we? (brown). I have never known it to cover the meaning of ?shawdowed,? as Rory says exists in Omaha. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Wed Apr 23 04:00:06 2014 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM (Sky Campbell) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 23:00:06 -0500 Subject: Terms for 'black' in MVS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is pretty cool :). Maximilian gives the Otoe word for black as "sewe" and notes that the Otoe language doesn't have a word for brown. Here is the entry for brown: chudje (ch guttural; e distinctly pronounced); i.e., dark, smoky, they have no word for brown Now this looks very close to "xoje" (gray). Maximilian has this for gray: cho-dj? (j French; ch guttural) I'm thinking this is the same word. He does seem to flip-flop between o and u in some of the same words. But I'm still curious if the use of u is going another route. Maximilian also has an interesting term for shade/shadow: oh-uan-seh (an French) This looks to be "owase/uwase" and this might be a long shot but I'm wondering if the -se at the end might be related to the sewe/sebe idea for shadowy. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 8:37 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Terms for 'black' in MVS Thanks, Jimm. That?s pretty much what I was thinking. I believe the original Siouan sound here was /?/, and some speakers, especially the Otoe-Missouria, have shifted it forward to something more like /s/. At the same time, the original Siouan /s/ has also shifted forward in IOM to something like /?/, ?thorn?, or what we write ?th?. So Omaha ?s? would correspond to IOM ?th?, and IOM ?s? or ?sh? would correspond to Omaha ?sh?. According to the CSD, we seem to have about four or five different words for ?black? in Siouan, which are all related to each other by a couple of sound alternations. First, we have alternation in the main vowel between /e/ and /a/, which gives us two alternative forms of ?black?: *sepe *sape Within MVS, Hochank and IOM chose *sepe as their basic word for ?black?, while Dakotan and Dhegiha chose *sape. However, Dhegiha at least preserved *sepe as an alternate ?black? term in rare cases. Bob Rankin found a s?we term for ?black? in Quapaw, and in Omaha the name of one of our speakers is Mi-sebe, meaning ?Dark of the Moon?. She and her sister made it very clear to us that the sebe part of this is not the ?black? word, s?be. They say that s?be is its own word meaning ?shadowy?, and in this case refers to the part of the moon that is dark when the moon is not full. I don?t know that I?ve ever run into the term outside of this case in Omaha, so perhaps it is preserved there mainly because it appears in a name. Second, these two ?black? words were both given alternates via Siouan fricative ablaut. The initial /s/ could be changed to /?/ to give the idea of an ?off-black?, or ?dark?: *sepe => *?epe *sape => *?ape In Dhegiha, the *?ape term means ?dark (colored)?, and in Dakotan it means ?dirty?, both in contrast to *sape, meaning ?black?. In IOM and Hochank, the *?epe term means ?dark?, ?suntanned? or ?brown? in contrast to *sepe, ?black?. So we get a comparative matrix that looks something like this: ?black? ?off-black? MVS *sepe => *?epe Ho s?ep => ??ep (?dark?, ?suntanned?) IOM thewe => sewe or ?ewe (?brown?) OP sebe (?shadowy?) MVS *sape => *?ape OP sabe => ?abe (?dark?) Da sapA => ?apA (?dirty?) Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 3:15 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Rory: They are both correct ?s?we? or ???we?. The difference is that the OM tend to pronounce a ?s? while the Ioway tend to pronounce a ??? ~ sh??. The distinction is not clear cut, as there have been informants who tend to use the ??? ~ sh?? at times and in certain words. Maybe once upon a time, it was an OM vs. I difference. So then, in the dictionary, such a word as we have here maybe be heard to be pronounced ?s?we? or ???we?. Now Dorsey also uses the ?s? and ?sh.? The former usually represents the ?th? while the latter represents the ?s? sound. From: Rory Larson Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 11:54 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Jimm, is that ?s?we? or ???we?? I looked it up in your dictionary, and found it under ???we?. Or is there no difference between /s/ and /?/ in IOM? From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Monday, April 21, 2014 9:16 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" I am in agreement with all said. May I add two things. Dorsey?s ??? in his text is equal to the ?ng? as in ?sing.? So in lieu of he Ioway ?-i?e,? it would be the Otoe/Missouria ?-inge.? Also, IOM does have a cognate to Omaha ?sebe? which is ?s?we? (brown). I have never known it to cover the meaning of ?shawdowed,? as Rory says exists in Omaha. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Wed Apr 23 14:52:17 2014 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm Goodtracks) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2014 09:52:17 -0500 Subject: Terms for 'black' in MVS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Rory: For your information, Note: dirty (clothes) adj. thew?ra; ith?wara; maxri (max): (I am?, hinth?wera; you are?, rith?wera; we two are?, w?wath?wera; we all are?, w?wath?werawi; they two are?, th?werawi; they all are?, th?wera?e). dirty, deface (by scratching, etc.) v.t. ig?thewara: (I?, ih?thewara; you?, ir?thewara; we?, h?ngithewarawi; they?, ig?thewara?e). M?hi ^?nna n?brathge ch? ig?thewara?e ke, They defaced the frame house w?th a knife. dirty, soil, deface from use v.t. ir?thew?ra. dirty water n. ?? ??oje; ???oje (i.). Nemaha River (in Nebraska and Kansas) n. ??m?ha (lit.: ?water dirty?). dirty with mouth (s.t.) v.t. ir?thewara. dirty with feet ~ by walking on v.t. in?thewara. dirty up, soil, deface by writing on v.t. wath?we; wa??we. get dirty v.i. xr?x^e; th?wahi; ir?thewara; iw?thewara; ib?thewara. dirty; soiled; second-hand (from short use) adj. thew?ra; th?ware (dor). From: Rory Larson Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 8:36 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Terms for 'black' in MVS Thanks, Jimm. That?s pretty much what I was thinking. I believe the original Siouan sound here was /?/, and some speakers, especially the Otoe-Missouria, have shifted it forward to something more like /s/. At the same time, the original Siouan /s/ has also shifted forward in IOM to something like /?/, ?thorn?, or what we write ?th?. So Omaha ?s? would correspond to IOM ?th?, and IOM ?s? or ?sh? would correspond to Omaha ?sh?. According to the CSD, we seem to have about four or five different words for ?black? in Siouan, which are all related to each other by a couple of sound alternations. First, we have alternation in the main vowel between /e/ and /a/, which gives us two alternative forms of ?black?: *sepe *sape Within MVS, Hochank and IOM chose *sepe as their basic word for ?black?, while Dakotan and Dhegiha chose *sape. However, Dhegiha at least preserved *sepe as an alternate ?black? term in rare cases. Bob Rankin found a s?we term for ?black? in Quapaw, and in Omaha the name of one of our speakers is Mi-sebe, meaning ?Dark of the Moon?. She and her sister made it very clear to us that the sebe part of this is not the ?black? word, s?be. They say that s?be is its own word meaning ?shadowy?, and in this case refers to the part of the moon that is dark when the moon is not full. I don?t know that I?ve ever run into the term outside of this case in Omaha, so perhaps it is preserved there mainly because it appears in a name. Second, these two ?black? words were both given alternates via Siouan fricative ablaut. The initial /s/ could be changed to /?/ to give the idea of an ?off-black?, or ?dark?: *sepe => *?epe *sape => *?ape In Dhegiha, the *?ape term means ?dark (colored)?, and in Dakotan it means ?dirty?, both in contrast to *sape, meaning ?black?. In IOM and Hochank, the *?epe term means ?dark?, ?suntanned? or ?brown? in contrast to *sepe, ?black?. So we get a comparative matrix that looks something like this: ?black? ?off-black? MVS *sepe => *?epe Ho s?ep => ??ep (?dark?, ?suntanned?) IOM thewe => sewe or ?ewe (?brown?) OP sebe (?shadowy?) MVS *sape => *?ape OP sabe => ?abe (?dark?) Da sapA => ?apA (?dirty?) Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 3:15 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Rory: They are both correct ?s?we? or ???we?. The difference is that the OM tend to pronounce a ?s? while the Ioway tend to pronounce a ??? ~ sh??. The distinction is not clear cut, as there have been informants who tend to use the ??? ~ sh?? at times and in certain words. Maybe once upon a time, it was an OM vs. I difference. So then, in the dictionary, such a word as we have here maybe be heard to be pronounced ?s?we? or ???we?. Now Dorsey also uses the ?s? and ?sh.? The former usually represents the ?th? while the latter represents the ?s? sound. From: Rory Larson Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 11:54 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Jimm, is that ?s?we? or ???we?? I looked it up in your dictionary, and found it under ???we?. Or is there no difference between /s/ and /?/ in IOM? From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Monday, April 21, 2014 9:16 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" I am in agreement with all said. May I add two things. Dorsey?s ??? in his text is equal to the ?ng? as in ?sing.? So in lieu of he Ioway ?-i?e,? it would be the Otoe/Missouria ?-inge.? Also, IOM does have a cognate to Omaha ?sebe? which is ?s?we? (brown). I have never known it to cover the meaning of ?shawdowed,? as Rory says exists in Omaha. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Wed Apr 23 15:13:48 2014 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm Goodtracks) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2014 10:13:48 -0500 Subject: Terms for 'black' in MVS In-Reply-To: <000301cf5ea8$83e8ea30$8bbabe90$@com> Message-ID: Below, the word Maximilian gave for brown is ?suje? (red). This is confirmed by the late Elders, and was used in the term for brown bear ?M?nje s?we.? On the other term: cho-dj? (j French; ch guttural) uh?dhe (shawdow; shade; dark as at night fall). From: Sky Campbell Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 11:00 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Terms for 'black' in MVS This is pretty cool :). Maximilian gives the Otoe word for black as "sewe" and notes that the Otoe language doesn't have a word for brown. Here is the entry for brown: chudje (ch guttural; e distinctly pronounced); i.e., dark, smoky, they have no word for brown Now this looks very close to "xoje" (gray). Maximilian has this for gray: cho-dj? (j French; ch guttural) I'm thinking this is the same word. He does seem to flip-flop between o and u in some of the same words. But I'm still curious if the use of u is going another route. dirty (clothes) adj. thew?ra; ith?wara; maxri (max): (I am?, hinth?wera; you are?, rith?wera; we two are?, w?wath?wera; we all are?, w?wath?werawi; they two are?, th?werawi; they all are?, th?wera?e). dirty, deface (by scratching, etc.) v.t. ig?thewara: (I?, ih?thewara; you?, ir?thewara; we?, h?ngithewarawi; they?, ig?thewara?e). M?hi ^?nna n?brathge ch? ig?thewara?e ke, They defaced the frame house w?th a knife. dirty, soil, deface from use v.t. ir?thew?ra. dirty water n. ?? ??oje; ???oje (i.). Nemaha River (in Nebraska and Kansas) n. ??m?ha (lit.: ?water dirty?). dirty with mouth (s.t.) v.t. ir?thewara. dirty with feet ~ by walking on v.t. in?thewara. dirty up, soil, deface by writing on v.t. wath?we; wa??we. get dirty v.i. xr?x^e; th?wahi; ir?thewara; iw?thewara; ib?thewara. dirty; soiled; second-hand (from short use) adj. thew?ra; th?ware (dor). This looks to be "owase/uwase" and this might be a long shot but I'm wondering if the -se at the end might be related to the sewe/sebe idea for shadowy. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 8:37 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Terms for 'black' in MVS Thanks, Jimm. That?s pretty much what I was thinking. I believe the original Siouan sound here was /?/, and some speakers, especially the Otoe-Missouria, have shifted it forward to something more like /s/. At the same time, the original Siouan /s/ has also shifted forward in IOM to something like /?/, ?thorn?, or what we write ?th?. So Omaha ?s? would correspond to IOM ?th?, and IOM ?s? or ?sh? would correspond to Omaha ?sh?. According to the CSD, we seem to have about four or five different words for ?black? in Siouan, which are all related to each other by a couple of sound alternations. First, we have alternation in the main vowel between /e/ and /a/, which gives us two alternative forms of ?black?: *sepe *sape Within MVS, Hochank and IOM chose *sepe as their basic word for ?black?, while Dakotan and Dhegiha chose *sape. However, Dhegiha at least preserved *sepe as an alternate ?black? term in rare cases. Bob Rankin found a s?we term for ?black? in Quapaw, and in Omaha the name of one of our speakers is Mi-sebe, meaning ?Dark of the Moon?. She and her sister made it very clear to us that the sebe part of this is not the ?black? word, s?be. They say that s?be is its own word meaning ?shadowy?, and in this case refers to the part of the moon that is dark when the moon is not full. I don?t know that I?ve ever run into the term outside of this case in Omaha, so perhaps it is preserved there mainly because it appears in a name. Second, these two ?black? words were both given alternates via Siouan fricative ablaut. The initial /s/ could be changed to /?/ to give the idea of an ?off-black?, or ?dark?: *sepe => *?epe *sape => *?ape In Dhegiha, the *?ape term means ?dark (colored)?, and in Dakotan it means ?dirty?, both in contrast to *sape, meaning ?black?. In IOM and Hochank, the *?epe term means ?dark?, ?suntanned? or ?brown? in contrast to *sepe, ?black?. So we get a comparative matrix that looks something like this: ?black? ?off-black? MVS *sepe => *?epe Ho s?ep => ??ep (?dark?, ?suntanned?) IOM thewe => sewe or ?ewe (?brown?) OP sebe (?shadowy?) MVS *sape => *?ape OP sabe => ?abe (?dark?) Da sapA => ?apA (?dirty?) Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 3:15 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Rory: They are both correct ?s?we? or ???we?. The difference is that the OM tend to pronounce a ?s? while the Ioway tend to pronounce a ??? ~ sh??. The distinction is not clear cut, as there have been informants who tend to use the ??? ~ sh?? at times and in certain words. Maybe once upon a time, it was an OM vs. I difference. So then, in the dictionary, such a word as we have here maybe be heard to be pronounced ?s?we? or ???we?. Now Dorsey also uses the ?s? and ?sh.? The former usually represents the ?th? while the latter represents the ?s? sound. From: Rory Larson Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 11:54 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Jimm, is that ?s?we? or ???we?? I looked it up in your dictionary, and found it under ???we?. Or is there no difference between /s/ and /?/ in IOM? From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Monday, April 21, 2014 9:16 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" I am in agreement with all said. May I add two things. Dorsey?s ??? in his text is equal to the ?ng? as in ?sing.? So in lieu of he Ioway ?-i?e,? it would be the Otoe/Missouria ?-inge.? Also, IOM does have a cognate to Omaha ?sebe? which is ?s?we? (brown). I have never known it to cover the meaning of ?shawdowed,? as Rory says exists in Omaha. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG Wed Apr 23 16:30:00 2014 From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2014 11:30:00 -0500 Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Terms for 'black' in MVS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I?d thought of the idea for red but he lists it as: schu-dj?? There we have an ?sch-? (with no mention of guttural) versus his ?ch-? in the other term (which he notes is guttural). He also has ?m?-chudj?? for ashes and ??chudjeh? for coal. Maximilian does have this term for ?dark?: oh?ns?? (an French) That?s a dead-ringer for our modern form (just swap out the s). He also has dirty (two spellings for it): m?h-chrih (ch with the point of the tongue) and m?chr? (ch guttural) Looking at his Omaha terms, he has that same term for dirty as well (with an extra ?chri added to have ?m?n-chri-chri?). I know that ?sewe? used to be used for black, but I am curious when it started to be used for brown (or perhaps it always ways and it just wasn?t documented (or I haven?t found it yet)). Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2014 10:14 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Terms for 'black' in MVS Importance: Low Below, the word Maximilian gave for brown is ?suje? (red). This is confirmed by the late Elders, and was used in the term for brown bear ?M?nje s?we.? On the other term: cho-dj? (j French; ch guttural) uh?dhe (shawdow; shade; dark as at night fall). From: Sky Campbell Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 11:00 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Terms for 'black' in MVS This is pretty cool :). Maximilian gives the Otoe word for black as "sewe" and notes that the Otoe language doesn't have a word for brown. Here is the entry for brown: chudje (ch guttural; e distinctly pronounced); i.e., dark, smoky, they have no word for brown Now this looks very close to "xoje" (gray). Maximilian has this for gray: cho-dj? (j French; ch guttural) I'm thinking this is the same word. He does seem to flip-flop between o and u in some of the same words. But I'm still curious if the use of u is going another route. dirty (clothes) adj. thew?ra; ith?wara; maxri (max): (I am?, hinth?wera; you are?, rith?wera; we two are?, w?wath?wera; we all are?, w?wath?werawi; they two are?, th?werawi; they all are?, th?wera?e). dirty, deface (by scratching, etc.) v.t. ig?thewara: (I?, ih?thewara; you?, ir?thewara; we?, h?ngithewarawi; they?, ig?thewara?e). M?hi ^?nna n?brathge ch? ig?thewara?e ke, They defaced the frame house w?th a knife. dirty, soil, deface from use v.t. ir?thew?ra. dirty water n. ?? ??oje; ???oje (i.). Nemaha River (in Nebraska and Kansas) n. ??m?ha (lit.: ?water dirty?). dirty with mouth (s.t.) v.t. ir?thewara. dirty with feet ~ by walking on v.t. in?thewara. dirty up, soil, deface by writing on v.t. wath?we; wa??we. get dirty v.i. xr?x^e; th?wahi; ir?thewara; iw?thewara; ib?thewara. dirty; soiled; second-hand (from short use) adj. thew?ra; th?ware (dor). This looks to be "owase/uwase" and this might be a long shot but I'm wondering if the -se at the end might be related to the sewe/sebe idea for shadowy. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 8:37 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Terms for 'black' in MVS Thanks, Jimm. That?s pretty much what I was thinking. I believe the original Siouan sound here was /?/, and some speakers, especially the Otoe-Missouria, have shifted it forward to something more like /s/. At the same time, the original Siouan /s/ has also shifted forward in IOM to something like /?/, ?thorn?, or what we write ?th?. So Omaha ?s? would correspond to IOM ?th?, and IOM ?s? or ?sh? would correspond to Omaha ?sh?. According to the CSD, we seem to have about four or five different words for ?black? in Siouan, which are all related to each other by a couple of sound alternations. First, we have alternation in the main vowel between /e/ and /a/, which gives us two alternative forms of ?black?: *sepe *sape Within MVS, Hochank and IOM chose *sepe as their basic word for ?black?, while Dakotan and Dhegiha chose *sape. However, Dhegiha at least preserved *sepe as an alternate ?black? term in rare cases. Bob Rankin found a s?we term for ?black? in Quapaw, and in Omaha the name of one of our speakers is Mi-sebe, meaning ?Dark of the Moon?. She and her sister made it very clear to us that the sebe part of this is not the ?black? word, s?be. They say that s?be is its own word meaning ?shadowy?, and in this case refers to the part of the moon that is dark when the moon is not full. I don?t know that I?ve ever run into the term outside of this case in Omaha, so perhaps it is preserved there mainly because it appears in a name. Second, these two ?black? words were both given alternates via Siouan fricative ablaut. The initial /s/ could be changed to /?/ to give the idea of an ?off-black?, or ?dark?: *sepe => *?epe *sape => *?ape In Dhegiha, the *?ape term means ?dark (colored)?, and in Dakotan it means ?dirty?, both in contrast to *sape, meaning ?black?. In IOM and Hochank, the *?epe term means ?dark?, ?suntanned? or ?brown? in contrast to *sepe, ?black?. So we get a comparative matrix that looks something like this: ?black? ?off-black? MVS *sepe => *?epe Ho s?ep => ??ep (?dark?, ?suntanned?) IOM thewe => sewe or ?ewe (?brown?) OP sebe (?shadowy?) MVS *sape => *?ape OP sabe => ?abe (?dark?) Da sapA => ?apA (?dirty?) Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 3:15 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Rory: They are both correct ?s?we? or ???we?. The difference is that the OM tend to pronounce a ?s? while the Ioway tend to pronounce a ??? ~ sh??. The distinction is not clear cut, as there have been informants who tend to use the ??? ~ sh?? at times and in certain words. Maybe once upon a time, it was an OM vs. I difference. So then, in the dictionary, such a word as we have here maybe be heard to be pronounced ?s?we? or ???we?. Now Dorsey also uses the ?s? and ?sh.? The former usually represents the ?th? while the latter represents the ?s? sound. From: Rory Larson Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 11:54 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Jimm, is that ?s?we? or ???we?? I looked it up in your dictionary, and found it under ???we?. Or is there no difference between /s/ and /?/ in IOM? From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Monday, April 21, 2014 9:16 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" I am in agreement with all said. May I add two things. Dorsey?s ??? in his text is equal to the ?ng? as in ?sing.? So in lieu of he Ioway ?-i?e,? it would be the Otoe/Missouria ?-inge.? Also, IOM does have a cognate to Omaha ?sebe? which is ?s?we? (brown). I have never known it to cover the meaning of ?shawdowed,? as Rory says exists in Omaha. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Wed Apr 23 20:11:58 2014 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm Goodtracks) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2014 15:11:58 -0500 Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Terms for 'black' in MVS In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E436C33F979B4A@Server6-EX.omtribe.net> Message-ID: He also has dirty (two spellings for it): m?h-chrih (ch with the point of the tongue) and m?chr? (ch guttural) xr?; xr?n v.i. cry, be sore; be upset, angered; ooze, run, fester; be fatty, gummy; mucous, pus; drool; wound; sore. axr? v.t. cry for s.o., s.t. ?? x??e axr? ke, He is crying for an apple. Ih?n axr? m??i ke, He is always crying for his mother. ?xri [a +gi + xri] v.t. gum up, gum shut; apply wax. **SEE: thr?; wasg?we. [W. hasirir? (ooze out); hosarag (ooze out; flow slowly); Os. xth? (fester); ?xthi (saliva); ?xthitu (spit); L. xn?; D. xd? (sore, raw; a running sore; raw place]. p?xrii?e (I.) ~ p?xrii?e [p? + uxr? + i?e] (O.) n. screech owl (lit: ?little sore head?). ** xr?ge n. cry baby. xr?nge v.i. growl; snarl. xr?x^e v.i. get dirty, soil; dirty up; deface by writing on. **SEE: th?wahi; ir?thewara. xr?tan (DOR) adj. cruel, bad, wicked. [It is said of someone who causes unnecessary pain or trouble]: (I am..., hinxr?tan; you.are..., rixr?tan; we are..., waw?xr?tanwi; they are..., waxr?tan?e). (OmP. xth?tu). From: Campbell, Sky Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2014 11:30 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Terms for 'black' in MVS I?d thought of the idea for red but he lists it as: schu-dj?? There we have an ?sch-? (with no mention of guttural) versus his ?ch-? in the other term (which he notes is guttural). He also has ?m?-chudj?? for ashes and ??chudjeh? for coal. Maximilian does have this term for ?dark?: oh?ns?? (an French) That?s a dead-ringer for our modern form (just swap out the s). He also has dirty (two spellings for it): m?h-chrih (ch with the point of the tongue) and m?chr? (ch guttural) Looking at his Omaha terms, he has that same term for dirty as well (with an extra ?chri added to have ?m?n-chri-chri?). I know that ?sewe? used to be used for black, but I am curious when it started to be used for brown (or perhaps it always ways and it just wasn?t documented (or I haven?t found it yet)). Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2014 10:14 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Terms for 'black' in MVS Importance: Low Below, the word Maximilian gave for brown is ?suje? (red). This is confirmed by the late Elders, and was used in the term for brown bear ?M?nje s?we.? On the other term: cho-dj? (j French; ch guttural) uh?dhe (shawdow; shade; dark as at night fall). From: Sky Campbell Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 11:00 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Terms for 'black' in MVS This is pretty cool :). Maximilian gives the Otoe word for black as "sewe" and notes that the Otoe language doesn't have a word for brown. Here is the entry for brown: chudje (ch guttural; e distinctly pronounced); i.e., dark, smoky, they have no word for brown Now this looks very close to "xoje" (gray). Maximilian has this for gray: cho-dj? (j French; ch guttural) I'm thinking this is the same word. He does seem to flip-flop between o and u in some of the same words. But I'm still curious if the use of u is going another route. dirty (clothes) adj. thew?ra; ith?wara; maxri (max): (I am?, hinth?wera; you are?, rith?wera; we two are?, w?wath?wera; we all are?, w?wath?werawi; they two are?, th?werawi; they all are?, th?wera?e). dirty, deface (by scratching, etc.) v.t. ig?thewara: (I?, ih?thewara; you?, ir?thewara; we?, h?ngithewarawi; they?, ig?thewara?e). M?hi ^?nna n?brathge ch? ig?thewara?e ke, They defaced the frame house w?th a knife. dirty, soil, deface from use v.t. ir?thew?ra. dirty water n. ?? ??oje; ???oje (i.). Nemaha River (in Nebraska and Kansas) n. ??m?ha (lit.: ?water dirty?). dirty with mouth (s.t.) v.t. ir?thewara. dirty with feet ~ by walking on v.t. in?thewara. dirty up, soil, deface by writing on v.t. wath?we; wa??we. get dirty v.i. xr?x^e; th?wahi; ir?thewara; iw?thewara; ib?thewara. dirty; soiled; second-hand (from short use) adj. thew?ra; th?ware (dor). This looks to be "owase/uwase" and this might be a long shot but I'm wondering if the -se at the end might be related to the sewe/sebe idea for shadowy. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 8:37 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Terms for 'black' in MVS Thanks, Jimm. That?s pretty much what I was thinking. I believe the original Siouan sound here was /?/, and some speakers, especially the Otoe-Missouria, have shifted it forward to something more like /s/. At the same time, the original Siouan /s/ has also shifted forward in IOM to something like /?/, ?thorn?, or what we write ?th?. So Omaha ?s? would correspond to IOM ?th?, and IOM ?s? or ?sh? would correspond to Omaha ?sh?. According to the CSD, we seem to have about four or five different words for ?black? in Siouan, which are all related to each other by a couple of sound alternations. First, we have alternation in the main vowel between /e/ and /a/, which gives us two alternative forms of ?black?: *sepe *sape Within MVS, Hochank and IOM chose *sepe as their basic word for ?black?, while Dakotan and Dhegiha chose *sape. However, Dhegiha at least preserved *sepe as an alternate ?black? term in rare cases. Bob Rankin found a s?we term for ?black? in Quapaw, and in Omaha the name of one of our speakers is Mi-sebe, meaning ?Dark of the Moon?. She and her sister made it very clear to us that the sebe part of this is not the ?black? word, s?be. They say that s?be is its own word meaning ?shadowy?, and in this case refers to the part of the moon that is dark when the moon is not full. I don?t know that I?ve ever run into the term outside of this case in Omaha, so perhaps it is preserved there mainly because it appears in a name. Second, these two ?black? words were both given alternates via Siouan fricative ablaut. The initial /s/ could be changed to /?/ to give the idea of an ?off-black?, or ?dark?: *sepe => *?epe *sape => *?ape In Dhegiha, the *?ape term means ?dark (colored)?, and in Dakotan it means ?dirty?, both in contrast to *sape, meaning ?black?. In IOM and Hochank, the *?epe term means ?dark?, ?suntanned? or ?brown? in contrast to *sepe, ?black?. So we get a comparative matrix that looks something like this: ?black? ?off-black? MVS *sepe => *?epe Ho s?ep => ??ep (?dark?, ?suntanned?) IOM thewe => sewe or ?ewe (?brown?) OP sebe (?shadowy?) MVS *sape => *?ape OP sabe => ?abe (?dark?) Da sapA => ?apA (?dirty?) Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 3:15 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Rory: They are both correct ?s?we? or ???we?. The difference is that the OM tend to pronounce a ?s? while the Ioway tend to pronounce a ??? ~ sh??. The distinction is not clear cut, as there have been informants who tend to use the ??? ~ sh?? at times and in certain words. Maybe once upon a time, it was an OM vs. I difference. So then, in the dictionary, such a word as we have here maybe be heard to be pronounced ?s?we? or ???we?. Now Dorsey also uses the ?s? and ?sh.? The former usually represents the ?th? while the latter represents the ?s? sound. From: Rory Larson Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 11:54 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" Jimm, is that ?s?we? or ???we?? I looked it up in your dictionary, and found it under ???we?. Or is there no difference between /s/ and /?/ in IOM? From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Monday, April 21, 2014 9:16 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear" I am in agreement with all said. May I add two things. Dorsey?s ??? in his text is equal to the ?ng? as in ?sing.? So in lieu of he Ioway ?-i?e,? it would be the Otoe/Missouria ?-inge.? Also, IOM does have a cognate to Omaha ?sebe? which is ?s?we? (brown). I have never known it to cover the meaning of ?shawdowed,? as Rory says exists in Omaha. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com ?? -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU Thu Apr 24 22:27:19 2014 From: sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU (Saul Schwartz) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 16:27:19 -0600 Subject: citation/quotation conventions for list? Message-ID: Dear all, I am wondering about the social conventions (stated or unstated) for citing and/or quoting material from the Siouan Listserv. On the one hand, the List is archived for anyone to view here ( http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A0=SIOUAN), so it is in some sense a public text. On the other hand, there is a strong sense of community among members of the List, and I have a feeling that we sometimes forget that we?re talking to each other in what is essentially a public forum (in the sense that the public can listen in on our conversation; one has to be a member to contribute, of course). I would be interested to hear general thoughts or thoughts related to the specific case described below. For example, I am currently working on an article/dissertation chapter about how the relationship between ?language? and ?culture? is changing for many American Indians who no longer speak their heritage languages. Specifically, I am trying point out the irony that while many people support language revitalization because they believe that ?the language? is essential for ?the culture,? revitalization efforts themselves often remove heritage languages from their traditional cultural contexts in an effort to make them more relevant to learners?for example, by coming up with Siouan calques for English idioms. After discussing some examples from the literature and my own experiences working with Jimm?s Ioway, Otoe-Missouria Language Project, I wanted to mention some of the reactions on the List to the recent request to translate ?curiouser and curiouser? from *Alice in Wonderland*; specifically, I wanted to quote parts of Bryan?s, Jimm?s, and Willem?s responses. I am including an excerpt from the draft of the paper below to give some context, but the paragraph that includes information from the Siouan Listserv is the second to last one. Has a convention for citation and/or quotation already been established for the List? Are posts assumed to be citable and/or quotable unless otherwise stated? Do we expect someone wanting to cite and/or quote a post to contact the poster off-list to request permission before doing so? Etc.... All best, Saul Ironically, while efforts to revitalize heritage languages are often motivated by a belief that ?the language? is an essential part of ?the culture,? language revitalization itself often ends up separating codes from their traditionally associated cultural settings. David Samuels (2006), for example, discusses how conflicts between Apache traditionalists, who believe the language is too powerful for young speakers, and Christians, who believe the language is too un-Christian for their children, have narrowed the kind of language that can be taught in the community to object identification?in other words, children are learning a version of the language stripped of its indexical associations with traditional culture practices. But, as an Apache bilingual teacher wonders, if children are only learning how to use Apache to order a cheeseburger, what?s the point? (2006:551). M. Eleanor Nevins (2004) finds language classes are controversial in another Apache community because they fail to teach communicative competence, that is, social conventions for interaction that make particular codes culturally significant means of communication. Meeks reports similar developments in the Yukon, where educational routines used to teach Kaska in school settings conflict with Dene interactional conventions and language socialization ideologies. Furthermore, these educational routines ?emphasiz[e] the referential aspect of language while downplaying all other indexical dimensions, and thereby diminish their sustainability as complex systems of and for communication? (2010:126). In their research on Pueblo groups in the Southwest, Debenport (xxxx) and Whiteley (xxxx) also found conflicts between language revitalization and cultural priorities. Many Tewas and Hopis believe that outsiders should not have access to their languages and thus oppose revitalization efforts that decontextualize codes from community-internal interpersonal interactions and recontextualize them in forms that can circulate beyond the community (e.g., online, in books, in schools attended by Navajo or other non-Pueblo children, etc.). By refusing to support such language revitalization efforts, community members are saying in effect that keeping their language private is more important to them than maintaining the code. Jocelyn Ahlers provides another example of how languages can become separated from their traditionally associated cultures in her description of how moribund languages are used to perform Native identities through memorized texts, a speech style she calls ?Native Language as Identity Marker? (2006:62). She concludes that ?this speech style adds to the body of evidence that language use is not indexical with cultural . . . identity, but rather performative of it? (2006:72). By this I understand her to mean that, unlike other kinds of code-switching, in this case a speaker sends a message about their identity by their code choice alone?what they are saying in the code refers to nothing outside itself (denotatively, indexically, or otherwise) because it is ?code-switching, by a nonfluent speaker, to a noncomprehending audience? (2006:69). In the case of these memorized speeches, a code performs an identity without referring to anything cultural. Whiteley (2003:715) offers a similar interpretation of speeches by younger generations at Haida memorial potlatches, and the Dauenhauers note an analogous development in written Tlingit when those who have no or little knowledge of the language ?use literacy for its decorative and symbolic effect or impression: for example, ?Merry Christmas? in Tlingit on corporate windows or Christmas cards? (1998:89). To draw from my own experience, the Ioway, Otoe-Missouria Language Project (IOMLP) makes a special effort to embed language in culturally significant contexts that are also applicable to modern day life. For example, the IOMLP designed and printed a tee shirt that includes a traditional floral design, a diagram representing the shared histories of the Iowa, Otoe-Missouria, and closely related Winnebago peoples (all labeled by their Chiwere endo- or exo-nyms), an image of an elder and a child wearing traditional ceremonial dance clothes, and a sentence in Chiwere that translates, ?The language honors our elders and teaches our children.?Similarly, the IOMLP designed mugs that include the Chiwere phrase for ?I love my coffee? with the image of an Oneota-style ceramic vessel superimposed over a medicine wheel. While the IOMLP makes a special effort to embed language in culturally rich contexts, the Project is all too familiar with the opposite possibility: that traditional language can be used in contexts far removed from traditional cultural practices and values. The director of the Project often receives requests to calque English idioms, for example, ?Go green!? (for a tribal environmental awareness program) or ?I [heart icon] boobies!? (for breast cancer awareness bracelets). He has also been asked to provide Chiwere equivalents for terms from the video game *Halo*. These requests are met with ambivalence since they have no connection to traditional cultural practices or can even seem antithetical to them. For example, the request for ?I [heart icon] boobies!? provoked a lesson on traditional attitudes toward body parts, body functions, and sexuality. And when I explained to the IOMLP what *Halo* is (a first-person shooter, i.e., rather violent, video game), the director expressed reservations that Chiwere language be associated with it at all. In some cases, then, indigenous languages can be used not just for cultural practices that are seen as untraditional (ordering a cheeseburger) but also anti-traditional (ones that promote dominant society attitudes toward sex, violence, etc.). This phenomenon is not limited to Chiwere, however, and many people involved in Siouan language documentation and revitalization receive similar requests. John Koontz, for example, received so many requests to translate stock English phrases as well as names for children and pets into Omaha-Ponca that he posted his general response to such questions on the FAQ section of his website. Once, he was even asked (presumably as a joke) for a Native American name for an RV; he responded in kind with *Hotanke*, an Anglicized spelling of the Dakotan word for ?Winnebago? (Winnebago is a popular brand of RV in the United States, much to the chagrin of the Winnebago Indians). Recently, a request appeared on the Siouan Listserv to translate a line from *Alice in Wonderland* (?curiouser and curiouser, cried Alice?) into various Siouan languages for some kind of polyglot compilation. While some found the intellectual challenge of translating a Victorian neologism into Siouan languages intriguing, others were less receptive to the request because of its perceived triviality and irrelevance to Native communities: ?It?s a more distinguished request than pet names and such, but it?s not the kind of translation work I would prefer to spend my time on. Why don?t people ask us to translate Microsoft Word or a K-12 curriculum or something important?? and ?I have other priorities and am unclear on the need for [a translation of] the particular quote from a story which has nothing in common with Native American culture. . . . To spend time on the translation of materials that have no immediate application to the language communities is nonsensical and, for my part, a waste of time.? One linguist shared his general guidelines for responding to such requests: ?One has to pick and choose. If it is short and culturally appropriate, I generally agree to it. . . . Then other requests have to be nixed, like the set of ?Spring Break? phrases I once was asked to translate, things like ?I am so drunk,? and ?Where is the bathroom??? In short, while language revitalization seeks to expand opportunities for the continued use of heritage languages by making them seem more applicable to current social conditions, there is a danger that the codes may become disassociated from the traditional cultures that motivate their revitalization in the first place. If what we care about is not only preserving linguistic diversity (in the sense of grammatical structures) but also preserving distinctive *cultural* worldviews and lifeways by maintaining heritage languages, then we have won the battle while losing the war if people are only learning and using heritage languages to participate in the practices of the dominant society. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU Thu Apr 24 22:57:19 2014 From: linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU (Bryan James Gordon) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 15:57:19 -0700 Subject: citation/quotation conventions for list? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Saul, I've cited Siouan List messages a few times before, often because the List is the only place I can find the relevant claims or data in an easily accessible form. I certainly welcome having my own List messages cited. That being said, for academic venues we have to keep in mind that the List is not peer-reviewed in the ordinary sense, and it's hard to know how on- or off-the-record things are. I'd like to continue your conversation about the relationship between language and culture (and also take part more actively in other Siouan stuff like helping out with edited volumes), but right now I'm frantically trying to finish my comprehensive exams so I'll have to put that off until the conference. Keep up the good work! Bryan 2014-04-24 15:27 GMT-07:00 Saul Schwartz : > Dear all, > > > > I am wondering about the social conventions (stated or unstated) for > citing and/or quoting material from the Siouan Listserv. On the one hand, > the List is archived for anyone to view here ( > http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A0=SIOUAN), so it is in some > sense a public text. On the other hand, there is a strong sense of > community among members of the List, and I have a feeling that we sometimes > forget that we?re talking to each other in what is essentially a public > forum (in the sense that the public can listen in on our conversation; one > has to be a member to contribute, of course). I would be interested to hear > general thoughts or thoughts related to the specific case described below. > > > > For example, I am currently working on an article/dissertation chapter > about how the relationship between ?language? and ?culture? is changing for > many American Indians who no longer speak their heritage languages. > Specifically, I am trying point out the irony that while many people > support language revitalization because they believe that ?the language? is > essential for ?the culture,? revitalization efforts themselves often remove > heritage languages from their traditional cultural contexts in an effort to > make them more relevant to learners?for example, by coming up with Siouan > calques for English idioms. After discussing some examples from the > literature and my own experiences working with Jimm?s Ioway, Otoe-Missouria > Language Project, I wanted to mention some of the reactions on the List to > the recent request to translate ?curiouser and curiouser? from *Alice in > Wonderland*; specifically, I wanted to quote parts of Bryan?s, Jimm?s, > and Willem?s responses. I am including an excerpt from the draft of the > paper below to give some context, but the paragraph that includes > information from the Siouan Listserv is the second to last one. > > > > Has a convention for citation and/or quotation already been established > for the List? Are posts assumed to be citable and/or quotable unless > otherwise stated? Do we expect someone wanting to cite and/or quote a post > to contact the poster off-list to request permission before doing so? > Etc.... > > > > All best, > > Saul > > > > Ironically, while efforts to revitalize heritage languages are often > motivated by a belief that ?the language? is an essential part of ?the > culture,? language revitalization itself often ends up separating codes > from their traditionally associated cultural settings. David Samuels > (2006), for example, discusses how conflicts between Apache > traditionalists, who believe the language is too powerful for young > speakers, and Christians, who believe the language is too un-Christian for > their children, have narrowed the kind of language that can be taught in > the community to object identification?in other words, children are > learning a version of the language stripped of its indexical associations > with traditional culture practices. But, as an Apache bilingual teacher > wonders, if children are only learning how to use Apache to order a > cheeseburger, what?s the point? (2006:551). M. Eleanor Nevins (2004) finds > language classes are controversial in another Apache community because they > fail to teach communicative competence, that is, social conventions for > interaction that make particular codes culturally significant means of > communication. > > > Meeks reports similar developments in the Yukon, where educational > routines used to teach Kaska in school settings conflict with Dene > interactional conventions and language socialization ideologies. > Furthermore, these educational routines ?emphasiz[e] the referential aspect > of language while downplaying all other indexical dimensions, and thereby > diminish their sustainability as complex systems of and for communication? > (2010:126). > > > In their research on Pueblo groups in the Southwest, Debenport (xxxx) and > Whiteley (xxxx) also found conflicts between language revitalization and > cultural priorities. Many Tewas and Hopis believe that outsiders should not > have access to their languages and thus oppose revitalization efforts that > decontextualize codes from community-internal interpersonal interactions > and recontextualize them in forms that can circulate beyond the community > (e.g., online, in books, in schools attended by Navajo or other non-Pueblo > children, etc.). By refusing to support such language revitalization > efforts, community members are saying in effect that keeping their language > private is more important to them than maintaining the code. > > > Jocelyn Ahlers provides another example of how languages can become > separated from their traditionally associated cultures in her description > of how moribund languages are used to perform Native identities through > memorized texts, a speech style she calls ?Native Language as Identity > Marker? (2006:62). She concludes that ?this speech style adds to the body > of evidence that language use is not indexical with cultural . . . > identity, but rather performative of it? (2006:72). By this I understand > her to mean that, unlike other kinds of code-switching, in this case a > speaker sends a message about their identity by their code choice > alone?what they are saying in the code refers to nothing outside itself > (denotatively, indexically, or otherwise) because it is ?code-switching, by > a nonfluent speaker, to a noncomprehending audience? (2006:69). In the case > of these memorized speeches, a code performs an identity without referring > to anything cultural. Whiteley (2003:715) offers a similar interpretation > of speeches by younger generations at Haida memorial potlatches, and the > Dauenhauers note an analogous development in written Tlingit when those who > have no or little knowledge of the language ?use literacy for its > decorative and symbolic effect or impression: for example, ?Merry > Christmas? in Tlingit on corporate windows or Christmas cards? (1998:89). > > > To draw from my own experience, the Ioway, Otoe-Missouria Language Project > (IOMLP) makes a special effort to embed language in culturally significant > contexts that are also applicable to modern day life. For example, the > IOMLP designed and printed a tee shirt that includes a traditional floral > design, a diagram representing the shared histories of the Iowa, > Otoe-Missouria, and closely related Winnebago peoples (all labeled by their > Chiwere endo- or exo-nyms), an image of an elder and a child wearing > traditional ceremonial dance clothes, and a sentence in Chiwere that > translates, ?The language honors our elders and teaches our children.?Similarly, the IOMLP designed mugs that include the Chiwere phrase for ?I > love my coffee? with the image of an Oneota-style ceramic vessel > superimposed over a medicine wheel. > > > While the IOMLP makes a special effort to embed language in culturally > rich contexts, the Project is all too familiar with the opposite > possibility: that traditional language can be used in contexts far removed > from traditional cultural practices and values. The director of the Project > often receives requests to calque English idioms, for example, ?Go green!? > (for a tribal environmental awareness program) or ?I [heart icon] boobies!? > (for breast cancer awareness bracelets). He has also been asked to provide > Chiwere equivalents for terms from the video game *Halo*. These requests > are met with ambivalence since they have no connection to traditional > cultural practices or can even seem antithetical to them. For example, the > request for ?I [heart icon] boobies!? provoked a lesson on traditional > attitudes toward body parts, body functions, and sexuality. And when I > explained to the IOMLP what *Halo* is (a first-person shooter, i.e., > rather violent, video game), the director expressed reservations that > Chiwere language be associated with it at all. In some cases, then, > indigenous languages can be used not just for cultural practices that are > seen as untraditional (ordering a cheeseburger) but also anti-traditional > (ones that promote dominant society attitudes toward sex, violence, etc.). > > > This phenomenon is not limited to Chiwere, however, and many people > involved in Siouan language documentation and revitalization receive > similar requests. John Koontz, for example, received so many requests to > translate stock English phrases as well as names for children and pets into > Omaha-Ponca that he posted his general response to such questions on the > FAQ section of his website. Once, he was even asked (presumably as a joke) > for a Native American name for an RV; he responded in kind with *Hotanke*, > an Anglicized spelling of the Dakotan word for ?Winnebago? (Winnebago is a > popular brand of RV in the United States, much to the chagrin of the > Winnebago Indians). > > > Recently, a request appeared on the Siouan Listserv to translate a line > from *Alice in Wonderland* (?curiouser and curiouser, cried Alice?) into > various Siouan languages for some kind of polyglot compilation. While some > found the intellectual challenge of translating a Victorian neologism into > Siouan languages intriguing, others were less receptive to the request > because of its perceived triviality and irrelevance to Native communities: > ?It?s a more distinguished request than pet names and such, but it?s not > the kind of translation work I would prefer to spend my time on. Why don?t > people ask us to translate Microsoft Word or a K-12 curriculum or something > important?? and ?I have other priorities and am unclear on the need for [a > translation of] the particular quote from a story which has nothing in > common with Native American culture. . . . To spend time on the translation > of materials that have no immediate application to the language communities > is nonsensical and, for my part, a waste of time.? One linguist shared his > general guidelines for responding to such requests: ?One has to pick and > choose. If it is short and culturally appropriate, I generally agree to it. > . . . Then other requests have to be nixed, like the set of ?Spring Break? > phrases I once was asked to translate, things like ?I am so drunk,? and > ?Where is the bathroom??? > > > In short, while language revitalization seeks to expand opportunities for > the continued use of heritage languages by making them seem more applicable > to current social conditions, there is a danger that the codes may become > disassociated from the traditional cultures that motivate their > revitalization in the first place. If what we care about is not only > preserving linguistic diversity (in the sense of grammatical structures) > but also preserving distinctive *cultural* worldviews and lifeways by > maintaining heritage languages, then we have won the battle while losing > the war if people are only learning and using heritage languages to > participate in the practices of the dominant society. > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's > DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from > Yahoo.com -- *********************************************************** Bryan James Gordon, MA Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology University of Arizona *********************************************************** -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From carudin1 at WSC.EDU Fri Apr 25 02:21:55 2014 From: carudin1 at WSC.EDU (Catherine Rudin) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 21:21:55 -0500 Subject: citation/quotation conventions for list? Message-ID: I also have cited List messages on occasion, though I think only in pretty informal contexts like conference presentations. As you point out, Saul, it is a public text, and I think it's legit to cite it the same way you would cite any online resource. Perhaps it's good for us all to remind ourselves that everything we write to the List IS not only public but permanently archived... C. >>> Bryan James Gordon 04/24/14 5:59 PM >>> Hi Saul, I've cited Siouan List messages a few times before, often because the List is the only place I can find the relevant claims or data in an easily accessible form. I certainly welcome having my own List messages cited. That being said, for academic venues we have to keep in mind that the List is not peer-reviewed in the ordinary sense, and it's hard to know how on- or off-the-record things are. I'd like to continue your conversation about the relationship between language and culture (and also take part more actively in other Siouan stuff like helping out with edited volumes), but right now I'm frantically trying to finish my comprehensive exams so I'll have to put that off until the conference. Keep up the good work! Bryan 2014-04-24 15:27 GMT-07:00 Saul Schwartz : Dear all, I am wonderingabout the social conventions (stated or unstated) for citing and/or quotingmaterial from the Siouan Listserv. On the one hand, the List is archived foranyone to view here (http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A0=SIOUAN),so it is in some sense a public text. On the other hand, there is a strongsense of community among members of the List, and I have a feeling that we sometimesforget that we?re talking to each other in what is essentially a public forum(in the sense that the public can listen in on our conversation; one has to bea member to contribute, of course). I would be interested to hear generalthoughts or thoughts related to the specific case described below. For example, I amcurrently working on an article/dissertation chapter about how the relationshipbetween ?language? and ?culture? is changing for many American Indians who nolonger speak their heritage languages. Specifically, I am trying point out theirony that while many people support language revitalization because theybelieve that ?the language? is essential for ?the culture,? revitalizationefforts themselves often remove heritage languages from their traditional culturalcontexts in an effort to make them more relevant to learners?for example, by comingup with Siouan calques for English idioms. After discussing some examples fromthe literature and my own experiences working with Jimm?s Ioway, Otoe-MissouriaLanguage Project, I wanted to mention some of the reactions on the List to the recentrequest to translate ?curiouser and curiouser? from Alice in Wonderland; specifically, I wanted to quote parts ofBryan?s, Jimm?s, and Willem?s responses. I am including an excerpt from the draftof the paper below to give some context, but the paragraph that includes informationfrom the Siouan Listserv is the second to last one. Has a conventionfor citation and/or quotation already been established for the List? Are postsassumed to be citable and/or quotable unless otherwise stated? Do we expect someonewanting to cite and/or quote a post to contact the poster off-list to requestpermission before doing so? Etc.... All best, Saul Ironically,while efforts to revitalize heritage languages are often motivated by a beliefthat ?the language? is an essential part of ?the culture,? languagerevitalization itself often ends up separating codes from their traditionallyassociated cultural settings. David Samuels (2006), for example, discusses howconflicts between Apache traditionalists, who believe the language is toopowerful for young speakers, and Christians, who believe the language is tooun-Christian for their children, have narrowed the kind of language that can betaught in the community to obarelearning a version of the language stripped of its indexical associations withtraditional culture practices. But, as an Apache bilingual teacher wonders, ifchildren are only learning how to use Apache to order a cheeseburger, what?sthe point? (2006:551). M. Eleanor Nevins (2004) finds language classes arecontroversial in another Apache community because they fail to teachcommunicative competence, that is, social conventions for interaction that makeparticular codes culturally significant means of communication. Meeksreports similar developments in the Yukon, where educational routines used toteach Kaska in school settings conflict with Dene interactional conventions andlanguage socialization ideologies. Furthermore, these educational routines?emphasiz[e] the referential aspect of language while downplaying all otherindexical dimensions, and thereby diminish their sustainability as complexsystems of and for communication? (2010:126). Intheir research on Pueblo groups in the Southwest, Debenport (xxxx) and Whiteley (xxxx) also found conflictsbetween language revitalization and cultural priorities. Many Tewas and Hopisbelieve that outsiders should not have access to their languages and thusoppose revitalization efforts that decontextualize codes fromcommunity-internal interpersonal interactions and recontextualize them in formsthat can circulate beyond the community (e.g., online, in books, in schoolsattended by Navajo or other non-Pueblo children, etc.). By refusing to supportsuch language revitalization efforts, community members are saying in effectthat keeping their language private is more important to them than maintainingthe code. JocelynAhlers provides another example of how languages can become separated fromtheir traditionally associated cultures in her description of how moribundlanguages are used to perform Native identities through memorized texts, aspeech style she calls ?Native Language as Identity Marker? (2006:62). Sheconcludes that ?this speech style adds to the body of evidence that languageuse is not indexical with cultural . . . identity, but rather performative ofit? (2006:72). By this I understand her to mean that, unlike other kinds ofcode-switching, in this case a speaker sends a message about their identity bytheir code choice alone?what they are saying in the code refers to nothingoutside itself (denotatively, indexically, or otherwise) because it is?code-switching, by a nonfluent speaker, to a noncomprehending audience?(2006:69). In the case of these memorized speeches, a code performs an identitywithout referring to anything cultural. Whiteley (2003:715) offers a similarinterpretation of speeches by younger generations at Haida memorial potlatches,and the Dauenhauers note an analogous development in written Tlingit when thosewho have no or little knowledge of the language ?use literacy for itsdecorative and symbolic effect or impression: for example, ?Merry Christmas? inTlingit on corporate windows or Christmas cards? (1998:89). Todraw from my own experience, the Ioway, Otoe-Missouria Language Project (IOMLP)makes a special effort to embed language in culturally significant contextsthat are also applicable to modern day life. For example, the IOMLP designedand printed a tee shirt that includes a traditional floral design, a diagramrepresenting the shared histories of the Iowa, Otoe-Missouria, and closelyrelated Winnebago peoples (all labeled by their Chiwere endo- or exo-nyms), animage of an elder and a child wearing traditional ceremonial dance clothes, anda sentence in Chiwere that translates, ?The language honors our elders and teaches ourchildren.? Similarly, theIOMLP designed mugs that include the Chiwere phrase for ?I love my coffee? withthe image of an Oneota-style ceramic vessel superimposed over a medicine wheel. Whilethe IOMLP makes a special effort to embed language in culturally rich contexts,the Project is all too familiar with the opposite possibility: that tradremoved from traditional culturalpractices and values. The director of the Project often receives requests to calqueEnglish idioms, for example, ?Go green!? (for a tribal environmental awarenessprogram) or ?I [heart icon] boobies!? (for breast cancer awareness bracelets).He has also been asked to provide Chiwere equivalents for terms from the videogame Halo. These requests are metwith ambivalence since they have no connection to traditional culturalpractices or can even seem antithetical to them. For example, the request for?I [heart icon] boobies!? provoked a lesson on traditional attitudes towardbody parts, body functions, and sexuality. And when I explained to the IOMLPwhat Halo is (a first-person shooter,i.e., rather violent, video game), the director expressed reservations thatChiwere language be associated with it at all. In some cases, then, indigenous languagescan be used not just for cultural practices that are seen as untraditional(ordering a cheeseburger) but also anti-traditional (ones that promote dominantsociety attitudes toward sex, violence, etc.). Thisphenomenon is not limited to Chiwere, however, and many people involved inSiouan language documentation and revitalization receive similar requests. JohnKoontz, for example, received so many requests to translate stock English phrasesas well as names for children and pets into Omaha-Ponca that he posted hisgeneral response to such questions on the FAQ section of his website. Once, hewas even asked (presumably as a joke) for a Native American name for an RV; heresponded in kind with Hotanke, anAnglicized spelling of the Dakotan word for ?Winnebago? (Winnebago is a popularbrand of RV in the United States, much to the chagrin of the Winnebago Indians). Recently,a request appeared on the Siouan Listserv to translate a line from Alice in Wonderland (?curiouser andcuriouser, cried Alice?) into various Siouan languages for some kind ofpolyglot compilation. While some found the intellectual challenge oftranslating a Victorian neologism into Siouan languages intriguing, others wereless receptive to the request because of its perceived triviality andirrelevance to Native communities: ?It?s a more distinguished request than petnames and such, but it?s not the kind of translation work I would prefer tospend my time on. Why don?t people ask us to translate Microsoft Word or a K-12curriculum or something important?? and ?I have other priorities and am unclearon the need for [a translation of] the particular quote from a story which hasnothing in common with Native American culture. . . . To spend time on thetranslation of materials that have no immediate application to the languagecommunities is nonsensical and, for my part, a waste of time.? One linguistshared his general guidelines for responding to such requests: ?One has to pick and choose. If it is short and culturallyappropriate, I generally agree to it. . . . Then other requests have to benixed, like the set of ?Spring Break? phrases I once was asked to translate,things like ?I am so drunk,? and ?Where is the bathroom??? Inshort, while language revitalization seeks to expand opportunities for thecontinued use of heritage languages by making them seem more applicable tocurrent social conditions, there is a danger that the codes may becomedisassociated from the traditional cultures that motivate their revitalizationin the first place. If what we care about is not only preserving linguisticdiversity (in the sense of grammatical structures) but also preservingdistinctive cultural worldviews andlifeways by maintaining heritage languages, then we have won the battle whilelosing the war if people are only learning and using heritage languages toparticipate in the practices of the dominant society. --Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu.Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- **************************************Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology University of Arizona *********************************************************** --Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu.Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jfu at LAKHOTA.ORG Fri Apr 25 13:02:48 2014 From: jfu at LAKHOTA.ORG (Jan Ullrich) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2014 15:02:48 +0200 Subject: citation/quotation conventions for list? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Saul, I was intrigued by your paper and would like to make a few comments. I am not an anthropologist, so take some of my remark about culture as those of a lay person. But I have been involved with language documentation and revitalization efforts for a while and I would like to make a few comments based on my experience. >>> In short, while language revitalization seeks to expand opportunities for the continued use of heritage languages by making them seem more applicable to current social conditions, there is a danger that the codes may become disassociated from the traditional cultures that motivate their revitalization in the first place. It is true that learners commonly associate words from their respective heritage languages with their ?modern/non-traditional? interpretations of cultural concepts. And for this reason revitalization efforts should strive to teach the language not only as a set of dry grammar rules but as a system of culturally motivated behavior, worldview and lifestyle. In this way language revitalization goes hand-in-hand with the revival of various aspects of the traditional culture. But in my experience this is often over-done because of unreasonable expectations as to the extent of the cultural revival and as to what is applicable in the contemporary tribal society. I remember about 11 years ago when we were working on the textbook and curriculum for the first grade and one of the native speakers involved said that the book should not teach classroom vocabulary (such as pen, book, computer) because these things are not a part of traditional Lakota culture. The speaker suggested that the book should introduce exclusively words for items and concepts from the traditional (i.e. pre-reservation) culture, such as words for bow, arrows, ceremonies etc. Such expectations are based on a very static view of culture and they result in teaching a language that cannot be used for everyday communication. Obviously, the children do not grow up in pre-reservation culture, their cultural reality is very different and they are only going to be motivated to use the language if they can use it within the context of their own reality. If they learn to speak Lakota (with a good level of understanding of the traditional meanings embedded in the language) then indeed this alone represents a major component of their Lakota identity. If not, then it would be possible to claim that, for instance, the 21st century French are not French because they have a very different lifestyle and worldview than the French in the 19th century. Indeed, the ability to speak French is a major part of French identity and there are a large number of worldviews and lifestyles among modern French people. There are probably a lot of traditional (archaic) aspects of French culture that some French people know or practice, but many others do not. Are they less French? Similarly, contemporary members of the Native American tribes no longer live in a uniform culture (if it ever was uniform). In Lakota language classes today, there are tribal members with highly varying backgrounds (in term of their believes, lifestyles and worldviews). They all want to learn Lakota because they feel it is an important part of their heritage and identity. But the extent to which they want to adopt or participate in other aspects of traditional culture varies significantly. >>> If what we care about is not only preserving linguistic diversity (in the sense of grammatical structures) but also preserving distinctive cultural worldviews and lifeways by maintaining heritage languages, then we have won the battle while losing the war if people are only learning and using heritage languages to participate in the practices of the dominant society. I could be wrong, but what I am reading in your text, is that the only correct way to revitalize a Native American language is to use it exclusively in context of traditional culture. To me it is a flawed expectation. For any language to survive it has to serve the communicative needs of the society that speaks it. The language should be an important vehicle for the revitalization and preservation of various aspects of traditional culture, but the language also has to claim new territories. Your paper makes it sound as if it is an either or situation. Why can?t it be both? I would argue that we can easily find a connection between ?Go green? and traditional cultural practices. Among the Lakota there is a group of people who started a movement towards abandoning the use of Styrofoam dishes in public feasts and ceremonies, and replacing them with traditional wooden bowls that Lakota people used to carry on them wherever they went. I think this is a great example of how a modern environmental awareness can be connected with traditional practices. The reason why some traditionalists may interpret ?Go green? as non-traditional is a poor translation. If we use a fitting idiomatic translation instead of a calque, the term may become more palatable or even viewed as traditional. In my experience there is a discrepancy between how native speakers portray their language and its role, and how they use it in real life. In a formal setting (in an interview or before an audience) native speakers always emphasize that the language is sacred, that it cannot be used in a negative way, to hurt anyone?s feelings, that there are no vulgar words etc. This is an important teaching about cultural values and culturally proper behavior, but the problem is that these things are attributed to the language, rather than to people?s manners. I don?t think that in societies with thriving language these values are normally attributed to a language. I can?t imagine an English (or Spanish) speaker teaching an audience about what the English language can and cannot be used for; e.g. ?children, we don?t use English to say this or that because it is impolite? - instead I would expect something like ?children, it is not polite to say this or that?, or ?It is not nice to make such and such remarks? etc). And of course, correct behavior and language use are more often taught by example than by description. Contrary to how native speakers talk about the heritage language formally, in informal settings a heritage language is used for just about any of those things we know from other languages, in all kinds of registers, using varying layers of the lexicon, in all kinds of contexts, for teasing, joking, for harmless (or harmful) gossip, for impertinent remarks or jokes and so on. To me the problem is that a good percentage of native speakers and some linguists have a tendency to idealize the language and elevate it to something almost untouchable (sacred), something that has to be kept immaculate and must not be defiled by incorrect use. The result, in my experience, is that many learners are afraid to use the language in front of their elders because they fear they will use it incorrectly. In my experience it is often the case that native speakers and learners spend significantly more time discussing (in English!) how the heritage language should or shouldn?t be used, instead of spending time on actually using it. Such discussions don?t contribute to language proficiency and in fact they can be counter-productive because they create unreasonable obstacles for learners. I believe that language revitalization efforts ought to take the focus away from such discussions and replace them with effective language teaching that focuses on developing both fluency and accuracy, as well as awareness of the cultural features reflected in the language. All of this can, and should, be done in the target language. It is my understanding that the various translation request you mention are almost exclusively made by people who are not active learners of the respective languages and often by people who are not even involved with language revitalization. As such, I would consider them more or less irrelevant in the discussion of language revitalization efforts. Jan From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Saul Schwartz Sent: Friday, April 25, 2014 12:27 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: citation/quotation conventions for list? Dear all, I am wondering about the social conventions (stated or unstated) for citing and/or quoting material from the Siouan Listserv. On the one hand, the List is archived for anyone to view here (http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A0=SIOUAN), so it is in some sense a public text. On the other hand, there is a strong sense of community among members of the List, and I have a feeling that we sometimes forget that we?re talking to each other in what is essentially a public forum (in the sense that the public can listen in on our conversation; one has to be a member to contribute, of course). I would be interested to hear general thoughts or thoughts related to the specific case described below. For example, I am currently working on an article/dissertation chapter about how the relationship between ?language? and ?culture? is changing for many American Indians who no longer speak their heritage languages. Specifically, I am trying point out the irony that while many people support language revitalization because they believe that ?the language? is essential for ?the culture,? revitalization efforts themselves often remove heritage languages from their traditional cultural contexts in an effort to make them more relevant to learners?for example, by coming up with Siouan calques for English idioms. After discussing some examples from the literature and my own experiences working with Jimm?s Ioway, Otoe-Missouria Language Project, I wanted to mention some of the reactions on the List to the recent request to translate ?curiouser and curiouser? from Alice in Wonderland; specifically, I wanted to quote parts of Bryan?s, Jimm?s, and Willem?s responses. I am including an excerpt from the draft of the paper below to give some context, but the paragraph that includes information from the Siouan Listserv is the second to last one. Has a convention for citation and/or quotation already been established for the List? Are posts assumed to be citable and/or quotable unless otherwise stated? Do we expect someone wanting to cite and/or quote a post to contact the poster off-list to request permission before doing so? Etc.... All best, Saul Ironically, while efforts to revitalize heritage languages are often motivated by a belief that ?the language? is an essential part of ?the culture,? language revitalization itself often ends up separating codes from their traditionally associated cultural settings. David Samuels (2006), for example, discusses how conflicts between Apache traditionalists, who believe the language is too powerful for young speakers, and Christians, who believe the language is too un-Christian for their children, have narrowed the kind of language that can be taught in the community to object identification?in other words, children are learning a version of the language stripped of its indexical associations with traditional culture practices. But, as an Apache bilingual teacher wonders, if children are only learning how to use Apache to order a cheeseburger, what?s the point? (2006:551). M. Eleanor Nevins (2004) finds language classes are controversial in another Apache community because they fail to teach communicative competence, that is, social conventions for interaction that make particular codes culturally significant means of communication. Meeks reports similar developments in the Yukon, where educational routines used to teach Kaska in school settings conflict with Dene interactional conventions and language socialization ideologies. Furthermore, these educational routines ?emphasiz[e] the referential aspect of language while downplaying all other indexical dimensions, and thereby diminish their sustainability as complex systems of and for communication? (2010:126). In their research on Pueblo groups in the Southwest, Debenport (xxxx) and Whiteley (xxxx) also found conflicts between language revitalization and cultural priorities. Many Tewas and Hopis believe that outsiders should not have access to their languages and thus oppose revitalization efforts that decontextualize codes from community-internal interpersonal interactions and recontextualize them in forms that can circulate beyond the community (e.g., online, in books, in schools attended by Navajo or other non-Pueblo children, etc.). By refusing to support such language revitalization efforts, community members are saying in effect that keeping their language private is more important to them than maintaining the code. Jocelyn Ahlers provides another example of how languages can become separated from their traditionally associated cultures in her description of how moribund languages are used to perform Native identities through memorized texts, a speech style she calls ?Native Language as Identity Marker? (2006:62). She concludes that ?this speech style adds to the body of evidence that language use is not indexical with cultural . . . identity, but rather performative of it? (2006:72). By this I understand her to mean that, unlike other kinds of code-switching, in this case a speaker sends a message about their identity by their code choice alone?what they are saying in the code refers to nothing outside itself (denotatively, indexically, or otherwise) because it is ?code-switching, by a nonfluent speaker, to a noncomprehending audience? (2006:69). In the case of these memorized speeches, a code performs an identity without referring to anything cultural. Whiteley (2003:715) offers a similar interpretation of speeches by younger generations at Haida memorial potlatches, and the Dauenhauers note an analogous development in written Tlingit when those who have no or little knowledge of the language ?use literacy for its decorative and symbolic effect or impression: for example, ?Merry Christmas? in Tlingit on corporate windows or Christmas cards? (1998:89). To draw from my own experience, the Ioway, Otoe-Missouria Language Project (IOMLP) makes a special effort to embed language in culturally significant contexts that are also applicable to modern day life. For example, the IOMLP designed and printed a tee shirt that includes a traditional floral design, a diagram representing the shared histories of the Iowa, Otoe-Missouria, and closely related Winnebago peoples (all labeled by their Chiwere endo- or exo-nyms), an image of an elder and a child wearing traditional ceremonial dance clothes, and a sentence in Chiwere that translates, ?The language honors our elders and teaches our children.? Similarly, the IOMLP designed mugs that include the Chiwere phrase for ?I love my coffee? with the image of an Oneota-style ceramic vessel superimposed over a medicine wheel. While the IOMLP makes a special effort to embed language in culturally rich contexts, the Project is all too familiar with the opposite possibility: that traditional language can be used in contexts far removed from traditional cultural practices and values. The director of the Project often receives requests to calque English idioms, for example, ?Go green!? (for a tribal environmental awareness program) or ?I [heart icon] boobies!? (for breast cancer awareness bracelets). He has also been asked to provide Chiwere equivalents for terms from the video game Halo. These requests are met with ambivalence since they have no connection to traditional cultural practices or can even seem antithetical to them. For example, the request for ?I [heart icon] boobies!? provoked a lesson on traditional attitudes toward body parts, body functions, and sexuality. And when I explained to the IOMLP what Halo is (a first-person shooter, i.e., rather violent, video game), the director expressed reservations that Chiwere language be associated with it at all. In some cases, then, indigenous languages can be used not just for cultural practices that are seen as untraditional (ordering a cheeseburger) but also anti-traditional (ones that promote dominant society attitudes toward sex, violence, etc.). This phenomenon is not limited to Chiwere, however, and many people involved in Siouan language documentation and revitalization receive similar requests. John Koontz, for example, received so many requests to translate stock English phrases as well as names for children and pets into Omaha-Ponca that he posted his general response to such questions on the FAQ section of his website. Once, he was even asked (presumably as a joke) for a Native American name for an RV; he responded in kind with Hotanke, an Anglicized spelling of the Dakotan word for ?Winnebago? (Winnebago is a popular brand of RV in the United States, much to the chagrin of the Winnebago Indians). Recently, a request appeared on the Siouan Listserv to translate a line from Alice in Wonderland (?curiouser and curiouser, cried Alice?) into various Siouan languages for some kind of polyglot compilation. While some found the intellectual challenge of translating a Victorian neologism into Siouan languages intriguing, others were less receptive to the request because of its perceived triviality and irrelevance to Native communities: ?It?s a more distinguished request than pet names and such, but it?s not the kind of translation work I would prefer to spend my time on. Why don?t people ask us to translate Microsoft Word or a K-12 curriculum or something important?? and ?I have other priorities and am unclear on the need for [a translation of] the particular quote from a story which has nothing in common with Native American culture. . . . To spend time on the translation of materials that have no immediate application to the language communities is nonsensical and, for my part, a waste of time.? One linguist shared his general guidelines for responding to such requests: ?One has to pick and choose. If it is short and culturally appropriate, I generally agree to it. . . . Then other requests have to be nixed, like the set of ?Spring Break? phrases I once was asked to translate, things like ?I am so drunk,? and ?Where is the bathroom??? In short, while language revitalization seeks to expand opportunities for the continued use of heritage languages by making them seem more applicable to current social conditions, there is a danger that the codes may become disassociated from the traditional cultures that motivate their revitalization in the first place. If what we care about is not only preserving linguistic diversity (in the sense of grammatical structures) but also preserving distinctive cultural worldviews and lifeways by maintaining heritage languages, then we have won the battle while losing the war if people are only learning and using heritage languages to participate in the practices of the dominant society. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU Fri Apr 25 15:52:32 2014 From: WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU (De Reuse, Willem) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2014 15:52:32 +0000 Subject: Saul and Jan's discussion In-Reply-To: <00df01cf6086$a8b4f770$fa1ee650$@org> Message-ID: Thank you very, Saul and Jan, for this interesting discussion. This points to a serious problem in many language revitalization contexts. Re: Saul, the reason why I object to translating "Spring break phrases" is not, obviously, because we do not need to know the (many!) ways one can say "I am so drunk" and "where is the bathroom?" , it is just that I do not want such things to end up as "curiosities" in some sleazy men's magazine. Of course, if some speakers of an indigenous language wanted to start a sleazy men's magazine in THEIR OWN language and discuss such things, that is entirely the business of the native community. It is all about us outside linguists not helping the jokers out there in trivializing indigenous languages. Re: Jan. Excellent points, I think most of us will agree. The issue not only concerns what sort of language one should teach, but also the shape and format of the pedagogical materials. I recently showed your Lakota children's textbook to a (non-Siouan speaking) language revitalization committee, and one (non-native) colleague (who shall remain unnamed) pointed out: "we cannot do that here, the elders think that such manuals with color pictures are disrespectful to the language, we need to use traditional ways, without color pictures". I bit my lip. Have you heard such objections to your textbooks from Lakota speakers? My view is we do need colorful pictures for children, other methods for adults. You teach French to children with color pictures, but you do not teach Racine and Voltaire to adults with colorful pictures... -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.rood at COLORADO.EDU Fri Apr 25 17:06:05 2014 From: david.rood at COLORADO.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2014 11:06:05 -0600 Subject: citation/quotation conventions for list? In-Reply-To: <00df01cf6086$a8b4f770$fa1ee650$@org> Message-ID: This message is primarily addressed to Jan and Saul, and it combines the issues raised in Saul's chapter (and Jan's reply) with the question Saul originally raised. I haven't repeated the thread here -- see Jan's recent message for that. There is considerable interest here in these issues of the appropriate goals and methods -- e.g. use of web-based technologies -- for language revitalization, and what Jan and Saul say would be of interest to some of my colleagues and students who don't work with Siouan languages. Would it be appropriate for me to forward your comments to them? If so, how would you like to be acknowledged if they decide to repeat your observations? Best, David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com From jfu at LAKHOTA.ORG Fri Apr 25 18:09:50 2014 From: jfu at LAKHOTA.ORG (Jan Ullrich) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2014 20:09:50 +0200 Subject: Saul and Jan's discussion In-Reply-To: <1398441168923.94560@my.unt.edu> Message-ID: >> Re: Jan. Excellent points, I think most of us will agree. >> The issue not only concerns what sort of language one should teach, but >> also the shape and format of the pedagogical materials. >>> I recently showed your Lakota children's textbook to a (non-Siouan speaking) >> language revitalization committee, and one (non-native) >> colleague (who shall remain unnamed) pointed out: >> "we cannot do that here, the elders think that such manuals with color >> pictures are disrespectful to the language, we need to use traditional ways, >> without color pictures". I bit my lip. Have you heard such objections to your >> textbooks from Lakota speakers? My view is we do need colorful pictures for children, >> other methods for adults. You teach French to children >> with color pictures, but you do not teach Racine and Voltaire to adults with colorful pictures... Willem As far as I can tell the color illustrations are welcome as a positive aspect of the teaching materials. I don't recall hearing criticism of the illustrations from native speakers, on the contrary. But I remember an incident that is very much in line with the experience you describe above: it was during one of the teacher trainings when we were introducing the native teachers to various types of games designed for teaching language in a fun, motivating and age appropriate ways; during the class one of the native speakers said the following: "we cannot use games in language classes because the language is sacred". This illustrates the level to which some of the heritage language became disassociated from their normal function, which is everyday communication in all contexts and situations. In my opinion this is very much the result of emphasizing the sacredness and describing those languages as something that is associated only with ceremonial and spiritual contexts. It is true that this is the context in which the language is most commonly heard by non-speakers today, but in those are families and communities where Lakota is still spoken for everyday communication, it is indeed used in a number of different contexts as well. Jan -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jfu at LAKHOTA.ORG Fri Apr 25 18:41:19 2014 From: jfu at LAKHOTA.ORG (Jan Ullrich) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2014 20:41:19 +0200 Subject: citation/quotation conventions for list? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David, Feel free to forward my comments to anyone. They can cite my email to the Siouan list on 4/25/2014. Jan -----Original Message----- From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of ROOD DAVID S Sent: Friday, April 25, 2014 7:06 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: citation/quotation conventions for list? This message is primarily addressed to Jan and Saul, and it combines the issues raised in Saul's chapter (and Jan's reply) with the question Saul originally raised. I haven't repeated the thread here -- see Jan's recent message for that. There is considerable interest here in these issues of the appropriate goals and methods -- e.g. use of web-based technologies -- for language revitalization, and what Jan and Saul say would be of interest to some of my colleagues and students who don't work with Siouan languages. Would it be appropriate for me to forward your comments to them? If so, how would you like to be acknowledged if they decide to repeat your observations? Best, David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com From sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU Fri Apr 25 18:51:37 2014 From: sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU (Saul Schwartz) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2014 12:51:37 -0600 Subject: citation/quotation conventions for list? In-Reply-To: <018c01cf60b5$f32ddd10$d9899730$@org> Message-ID: Dear David, Touch?. Sure, feel free to forward my post. Personally, I think of the List as a kind of public archive---I'm just not sure if everyone feels that way or not. Thus, in my opinion, people could cite posts just as they would anything they found online, e.g., name, date, title, link, whatever the style manual they're using requires. If, on the other hand, the convention is to check with someone before citing/quoting, then they may prefer some other arrangement---for example, they may be ok with being quoted but don't want their name to be cited. It occurs to me, though, that in the draft of my paper, I didn't name names nor did I check with Bryan, Jimm, and Willem beforehand to see if they wanted to be credited or remain anonymous. So, that is clearly *not* an ethical option. Unless a consensus emerges that members see the List as a kind of public archive (which is de facto what it is since it is archived online where anyone can access it), I will treat communication on the List as I would emails between colleagues (which is what it usually feels like) and therefore contact posters individually to request permission to cite/quote. All best, Saul On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 12:41 PM, Jan Ullrich wrote: > David, > > Feel free to forward my comments to anyone. They can cite my email to the > Siouan list on 4/25/2014. > > Jan > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of > ROOD > DAVID S > Sent: Friday, April 25, 2014 7:06 PM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Re: citation/quotation conventions for list? > > This message is primarily addressed to Jan and Saul, and it combines the > issues raised in Saul's chapter (and Jan's reply) with the question Saul > originally raised. I haven't repeated the thread here -- see Jan's recent > message for that. > > There is considerable interest here in these issues of the appropriate > goals > and methods -- e.g. use of web-based technologies -- for language > revitalization, and what Jan and Saul say would be of interest to some of > my > colleagues and students who don't work with Siouan languages. Would it be > appropriate for me to forward your comments to them? If so, how would you > like to be acknowledged if they decide to repeat your observations? > > Best, > David > > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > -- > Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. > Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming > email from Yahoo.com > > -- > Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. > Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept > incoming email from Yahoo.com > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Fri Apr 25 19:05:35 2014 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Greer, Jill) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2014 19:05:35 +0000 Subject: citation/quotation conventions for list? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello all, You may have already seen this since it was covered on NBC and the Wall Street Journal, but since it involves many of our Siouan tribal peoples, and our heartland also, here is a link about the current Cowboy-Indian Alliance including the Lakota reservations and the Ponca, not to mention the many others in Alberta who are already affected by the Tar Sands extraction. You can hear some singing on the video clips as people are riding their horses in D.C ?. Hats off for the courage of the protesters! http://boldnebraska.org/day-one-reject-protect-cowboy-and-indian-alliance-rides-into-d-c/?akid=2.28937.H-vwKA&rd=1&t=1 Best, Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Saul Schwartz Sent: Friday, April 25, 2014 1:52 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: citation/quotation conventions for list? Dear David, Touch?. Sure, feel free to forward my post. Personally, I think of the List as a kind of public archive---I'm just not sure if everyone feels that way or not. Thus, in my opinion, people could cite posts just as they would anything they found online, e.g., name, date, title, link, whatever the style manual they're using requires. If, on the other hand, the convention is to check with someone before citing/quoting, then they may prefer some other arrangement---for example, they may be ok with being quoted but don't want their name to be cited. It occurs to me, though, that in the draft of my paper, I didn't name names nor did I check with Bryan, Jimm, and Willem beforehand to see if they wanted to be credited or remain anonymous. So, that is clearly not an ethical option. Unless a consensus emerges that members see the List as a kind of public archive (which is de facto what it is since it is archived online where anyone can access it), I will treat communication on the List as I would emails between colleagues (which is what it usually feels like) and therefore contact posters individually to request permission to cite/quote. All best, Saul On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 12:41 PM, Jan Ullrich > wrote: David, Feel free to forward my comments to anyone. They can cite my email to the Siouan list on 4/25/2014. Jan -----Original Message----- From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of ROOD DAVID S Sent: Friday, April 25, 2014 7:06 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: citation/quotation conventions for list? This message is primarily addressed to Jan and Saul, and it combines the issues raised in Saul's chapter (and Jan's reply) with the question Saul originally raised. I haven't repeated the thread here -- see Jan's recent message for that. There is considerable interest here in these issues of the appropriate goals and methods -- e.g. use of web-based technologies -- for language revitalization, and what Jan and Saul say would be of interest to some of my colleagues and students who don't work with Siouan languages. Would it be appropriate for me to forward your comments to them? If so, how would you like to be acknowledged if they decide to repeat your observations? Best, David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.rood at COLORADO.EDU Sat Apr 26 03:27:56 2014 From: david.rood at COLORADO.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2014 21:27:56 -0600 Subject: citation/quotation conventions for list? In-Reply-To: <018c01cf60b5$f32ddd10$d9899730$@org> Message-ID: Thanks, Jan. David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Fri, 25 Apr 2014, Jan Ullrich wrote: > David, > > Feel free to forward my comments to anyone. They can cite my email to the > Siouan list on 4/25/2014. > > Jan > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of ROOD > DAVID S > Sent: Friday, April 25, 2014 7:06 PM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Re: citation/quotation conventions for list? > > This message is primarily addressed to Jan and Saul, and it combines the > issues raised in Saul's chapter (and Jan's reply) with the question Saul > originally raised. I haven't repeated the thread here -- see Jan's recent > message for that. > > There is considerable interest here in these issues of the appropriate goals > and methods -- e.g. use of web-based technologies -- for language > revitalization, and what Jan and Saul say would be of interest to some of my > colleagues and students who don't work with Siouan languages. Would it be > appropriate for me to forward your comments to them? If so, how would you > like to be acknowledged if they decide to repeat your observations? > > Best, > David > > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > -- > Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. > Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming > email from Yahoo.com > > -- > Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. > Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com From david.rood at COLORADO.EDU Sat Apr 26 03:28:05 2014 From: david.rood at COLORADO.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2014 21:28:05 -0600 Subject: citation/quotation conventions for list? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, Saul. Perhaps nothing will come of it, but whenever I read anything as thoughtful as the chapter you sent with your message, I feel like I ought to pass it on. Hope your work is going well. If the rest of your dissertation is of the quality I see in this draft, I will really look forward to seeing it. Best, David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Fri, 25 Apr 2014, Saul Schwartz wrote: > Dear David, > > Touch??. Sure, feel free to forward my post. Personally, I think of the List > as a kind of public archive---I'm just not sure if everyone feels that way > or not. Thus, in my opinion, people could cite posts just as they would > anything they found online, e.g., name, date, title, link, whatever the > style manual they're using requires. If, on the other hand, the convention > is to check with someone before citing/quoting, then they may prefer some > other arrangement---for example, they may be ok with being quoted but don't > want their name to be cited. > > It occurs to me, though, that in the draft of my paper, I didn't name names > nor did I check with Bryan, Jimm, and Willem beforehand to see if they > wanted to be credited or remain anonymous. So, that is clearly *not* an > ethical option. > > Unless a consensus emerges that members see the List as a kind of public > archive (which is de facto what it is since it is archived online where > anyone can access it), I will treat communication on the List as I would > emails between colleagues (which is what it usually feels like) and > therefore contact posters individually to request permission to cite/quote. > > All best, > Saul > > > On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 12:41 PM, Jan Ullrich wrote: > >> David, >> >> Feel free to forward my comments to anyone. They can cite my email to the >> Siouan list on 4/25/2014. >> >> Jan >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of >> ROOD >> DAVID S >> Sent: Friday, April 25, 2014 7:06 PM >> To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >> Subject: Re: citation/quotation conventions for list? >> >> This message is primarily addressed to Jan and Saul, and it combines the >> issues raised in Saul's chapter (and Jan's reply) with the question Saul >> originally raised. I haven't repeated the thread here -- see Jan's recent >> message for that. >> >> There is considerable interest here in these issues of the appropriate >> goals >> and methods -- e.g. use of web-based technologies -- for language >> revitalization, and what Jan and Saul say would be of interest to some of >> my >> colleagues and students who don't work with Siouan languages. Would it be >> appropriate for me to forward your comments to them? If so, how would you >> like to be acknowledged if they decide to repeat your observations? >> >> Best, >> David >> >> >> David S. Rood >> Dept. of Linguistics >> Univ. of Colorado >> 295 UCB >> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >> USA >> rood at colorado.edu >> >> -- >> Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. >> Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming >> email from Yahoo.com >> >> -- >> Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. >> Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept >> incoming email from Yahoo.com >> > > -- > Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. > Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com From mawakuni-swetland2 at UNL.EDU Mon Apr 28 16:05:05 2014 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at UNL.EDU (Mark Awakuni-Swetland) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2014 16:05:05 +0000 Subject: citation/quotation conventions for list? In-Reply-To: <535980730200008E000B3982@hermes.wsc.edu> Message-ID: Aloha all, I am just now catching up with this timely conversation regarding quotation/citation conventions. While I will be unable to travel to this year?s SCLConf, can I encourage you all to brainstorm some protocols for how to cite the SIOUANList? I recognize that the List is a resource for both academic and community folks. I do not want to burden or hinder non-academics from using the List and Archives. However a set of examples for how to cite List sources would be helpful to those wanting to cite sources as expected by journal and book publishers, MA & PhD committees, and other senior faculty. Several of you have already provided some approaches on this topic. Would someone be willing to spearhead a discussion on this at the conference? Many thanks for considering this request. Mark Awakuni-Swetland Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. Associate Professor Anthropology & Ethnic Studies Native American Studies University of Nebraska Oldfather Hall 841 Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 Office: 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 http://omahalanguage.unl.edu http://omahaponca.unl.edu ?Tenixa uqpatha egoN?, a biama winisi akHa. Lincoln Gem and Mineral Club, Inc. Post Office Box 5342 Lincoln, NE 68505-0342 From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Catherine Rudin Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 9:22 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: citation/quotation conventions for list? I also have cited List messages on occasion, though I think only in pretty informal contexts like conference presentations. As you point out, Saul, it is a public text, and I think it's legit to cite it the same way you would cite any online resource. Perhaps it's good for us all to remind ourselves that everything we write to the List IS not only public but permanently archived... C. >>> Bryan James Gordon 04/24/14 5:59 PM >>> Hi Saul, I've cited Siouan List messages a few times before, often because the List is the only place I can find the relevant claims or data in an easily accessible form. I certainly welcome having my own List messages cited. That being said, for academic venues we have to keep in mind that the List is not peer-reviewed in the ordinary sense, and it's hard to know how on- or off-the-record things are. I'd like to continue your conversation about the relationship between language and culture (and also take part more actively in other Siouan stuff like helping out with edited volumes), but right now I'm frantically trying to finish my comprehensive exams so I'll have to put that off until the conference. Keep up the good work! Bryan 2014-04-24 15:27 GMT-07:00 Saul Schwartz >: Dear all, I am wondering about the social conventions (stated or unstated) for citing and/or quoting material from the Siouan Listserv. On the one hand, the List is archived for anyone to view here (http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A0=SIOUAN), so it is in some sense a public text. On the other hand, there is a strong sense of community among members of the List, and I have a feeling that we sometimes forget that we?re talking to each other in what is essentially a public forum (in the sense that the public can listen in on our conversation; one has to be a member to contribute, of course). I would be interested to hear general thoughts or thoughts related to the specific case described below. For example, I am currently working on an article/dissertation chapter about how the relationship between ?language? and ?culture? is changing for many American Indians who no longer speak their heritage languages. Specifically, I am trying point out the irony that while many people support language revitalization because they believe that ?the language? is essential for ?the culture,? revitalization efforts themselves often remove heritage languages from their traditional cultural contexts in an effort to make them more relevant to learners?for example, by coming up with Siouan calques for English idioms. After discussing some examples from the literature and my own experiences working with Jimm?s Ioway, Otoe-Missouria Language Project, I wanted to mention some of the reactions on the List to the recent request to translate ?curiouser and curiouser? from Alice in Wonderland; specifically, I wanted to quote parts of Bryan?s, Jimm?s, and Willem?s responses. I am including an excerpt from the draft of the paper below to give some context, but the paragraph that includes information from the Siouan Listserv is the second to last one. Has a convention for citation and/or quotation already been established for the List? Are posts assumed to be citable and/or quotable unless otherwise stated? Do we expect someone wanting to cite and/or quote a post to contact the poster off-list to request permission before doing so? Etc.... All best, Saul Ironically, while efforts to revitalize heritage languages are often motivated by a belief that ?the language? is an essential part of ?the culture,? language revitalization itself often ends up separating codes from their traditionally associated cultural settings. David Samuels (2006), for example, discusses how conflicts between Apache traditionalists, who believe the language is too powerful for young speakers, and Christians, who believe the language is too un-Christian for their children, have narrowed the kind of language that can be taught in the community to object identification?in other words, children are learning a version of the language stripped of its indexical associations with traditional culture practices. But, as an Apache bilingual teacher wonders, if children are only learning how to use Apache to order a cheeseburger, what?s the point? (2006:551). M. Eleanor Nevins (2004) finds language classes are controversial in another Apache community because they fail to teach communicative competence, that is, social conventions for interaction that make particular codes culturally significant means of communication. Meeks reports similar developments in the Yukon, where educational routines used to teach Kaska in school settings conflict with Dene interactional conventions and language socialization ideologies. Furthermore, these educational routines ?emphasiz[e] the referential aspect of language while downplaying all other indexical dimensions, and thereby diminish their sustainability as complex systems of and for communication? (2010:126). In their research on Pueblo groups in the Southwest, Debenport (xxxx) and Whiteley (xxxx) also found conflicts between language revitalization and cultural priorities. Many Tewas and Hopis believe that outsiders should not have access to their languages and thus oppose revitalization efforts that decontextualize codes from community-internal interpersonal interactions and recontextualize them in forms that can circulate beyond the community (e.g., online, in books, in schools attended by Navajo or other non-Pueblo children, etc.). By refusing to support such language revitalization efforts, community members are saying in effect that keeping their language private is more important to them than maintaining the code. Jocelyn Ahlers provides another example of how languages can become separated from their traditionally associated cultures in her description of how moribund languages are used to perform Native identities through memorized texts, a speech style she calls ?Native Language as Identity Marker? (2006:62). She concludes that ?this speech style adds to the body of evidence that language use is not indexical with cultural . . . identity, but rather performative of it? (2006:72). By this I understand her to mean that, unlike other kinds of code-switching, in this case a speaker sends a message about their identity by their code choice alone?what they are saying in the code refers to nothing outside itself (denotatively, indexically, or otherwise) because it is ?code-switching, by a nonfluent speaker, to a noncomprehending audience? (2006:69). In the case of these memorized speeches, a code performs an identity without referring to anything cultural. Whiteley (2003:715) offers a similar interpretation of speeches by younger generations at Haida memorial potlatches, and the Dauenhauers note an analogous development in written Tlingit when those who have no or little knowledge of the language ?use literacy for its decorative and symbolic effect or impression: for example, ?Merry Christmas? in Tlingit on corporate windows or Christmas cards? (1998:89). To draw from my own experience, the Ioway, Otoe-Missouria Language Project (IOMLP) makes a special effort to embed language in culturally significant contexts that are also applicable to modern day life. For example, the IOMLP designed and printed a tee shirt that includes a traditional floral design, a diagram representing the shared histories of the Iowa, Otoe-Missouria, and closely related Winnebago peoples (all labeled by their Chiwere endo- or exo-nyms), an image of an elder and a child wearing traditional ceremonial dance clothes, and a sentence in Chiwere that translates, ?The language honors our elders and teaches our children.? Similarly, the IOMLP designed mugs that include the Chiwere phrase for ?I love my coffee? with the image of an Oneota-style ceramic vessel superimposed over a medicine wheel. While the IOMLP makes a special effort to embed language in culturally rich contexts, the Project is all too familiar with the opposite possibility: that traditional language can be used in contexts far removed from traditional cultural practices and values. The director of the Project often receives requests to calque English idioms, for example, ?Go green!? (for a tribal environmental awareness program) or ?I [heart icon] boobies!? (for breast cancer awareness bracelets). He has also been asked to provide Chiwere equivalents for terms from the video game Halo. These requests are met with ambivalence since they have no connection to traditional cultural practices or can even seem antithetical to them. For example, the request for ?I [heart icon] boobies!? provoked a lesson on traditional attitudes toward body parts, body functions, and sexuality. And when I explained to the IOMLP what Halo is (a first-person shooter, i.e., rather violent, video game), the director expressed reservations that Chiwere language be associated with it at all. In some cases, then, indigenous languages can be used not just for cultural practices that are seen as untraditional (ordering a cheeseburger) but also anti-traditional (ones that promote dominant society attitudes toward sex, violence, etc.). This phenomenon is not limited to Chiwere, however, and many people involved in Siouan language documentation and revitalization receive similar requests. John Koontz, for example, received so many requests to translate stock English phrases as well as names for children and pets into Omaha-Ponca that he posted his general response to such questions on the FAQ section of his website. Once, he was even asked (presumably as a joke) for a Native American name for an RV; he responded in kind with Hotanke, an Anglicized spelling of the Dakotan word for ?Winnebago? (Winnebago is a popular brand of RV in the United States, much to the chagrin of the Winnebago Indians). Recently, a request appeared on the Siouan Listserv to translate a line from Alice in Wonderland (?curiouser and curiouser, cried Alice?) into various Siouan languages for some kind of polyglot compilation. While some found the intellectual challenge of translating a Victorian neologism into Siouan languages intriguing, others were less receptive to the request because of its perceived triviality and irrelevance to Native communities: ?It?s a more distinguished request than pet names and such, but it?s not the kind of translation work I would prefer to spend my time on. Why don?t people ask us to translate Microsoft Word or a K-12 curriculum or something important?? and ?I have other priorities and am unclear on the need for [a translation of] the particular quote from a story which has nothing in common with Native American culture. . . . To spend time on the translation of materials that have no immediate application to the language communities is nonsensical and, for my part, a waste of time.? One linguist shared his general guidelines for responding to such requests: ?One has to pick and choose. If it is short and culturally appropriate, I generally agree to it. . . . Then other requests have to be nixed, like the set of ?Spring Break? phrases I once was asked to translate, things like ?I am so drunk,? and ?Where is the bathroom??? In short, while language revitalization seeks to expand opportunities for the continued use of heritage languages by making them seem more applicable to current social conditions, there is a danger that the codes may become disassociated from the traditional cultures that motivate their revitalization in the first place. If what we care about is not only preserving linguistic diversity (in the sense of grammatical structures) but also preserving distinctive cultural worldviews and lifeways by maintaining heritage languages, then we have won the battle while losing the war if people are only learning and using heritage languages to participate in the practices of the dominant society. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- *********************************************************** Bryan James Gordon, MA Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology University of Arizona *********************************************************** -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU Tue Apr 29 01:53:55 2014 From: linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU (Bryan James Gordon) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2014 18:53:55 -0700 Subject: citation/quotation conventions for list? In-Reply-To: <91899abd9be14c35a5cf323223ea4997@BY2PR08MB240.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Conference g?tha?di wit??be-m?zhi-t?e ??tha-m?zhi Mark, thig?ni ?da? ma?n?? ka?bth?ga?. Mark raises a very important point about non-academics' access. I agree that we should give this some detailed attention at the conference, but I want us to keep non-academic audiences, especially non-linguists in Native communities, in mind. Us academics have rules to follow, and our citation practices are interwoven with ideologies of due credit, verifiability and (!!!!) intellectual property. We enforce these rules on each other, but personally I don't believe we have any business enforcing them on Native communities (many of whom have objected to linguists' complicity in the "theft" of their languages and are fighting back along lines of intellectual property), nice as it may be to be properly cited. I know that my reasoning may sound a bit harsh to some of my fellow academics, but I hope that we can abstain from demanding citation practices from non-academics nonetheless. Bryan 2014-04-28 9:05 GMT-07:00 Mark Awakuni-Swetland : > Aloha all, > > I am just now catching up with this timely conversation regarding > quotation/citation conventions. > > While I will be unable to travel to this year?s SCLConf, can I encourage > you all to brainstorm some protocols for how to cite the SIOUANList? > > > > I recognize that the List is a resource for both academic and community > folks. > > > > I do not want to burden or hinder non-academics from using the List and > Archives. However a set of examples for how to cite List sources would be > helpful to those wanting to cite sources as expected by journal and book > publishers, MA & PhD committees, and other senior faculty. > > > > Several of you have already provided some approaches on this topic. > > > > Would someone be willing to spearhead a discussion on this at the > conference? > > > > Many thanks for considering this request. > > > > Mark Awakuni-Swetland > > > > > > Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. > > Associate Professor > > Anthropology & Ethnic Studies > > Native American Studies > > University of Nebraska > > Oldfather Hall 841 > > Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 > > > > Office: 402-472-3455 > > FAX: 402-472-9642 > > http://omahalanguage.unl.edu > > http://omahaponca.unl.edu > > > > ?Tenixa uqpatha egoN?, a biama winisi akHa. > > > > Lincoln Gem and Mineral Club, Inc. > > Post Office Box 5342 > > Lincoln, NE 68505-0342 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of > *Catherine Rudin > *Sent:* Thursday, April 24, 2014 9:22 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU > > *Subject:* Re: citation/quotation conventions for list? > > > > I also have cited List messages on occasion, though I think only in pretty > informal contexts like conference presentations. As you point out, Saul, it > is a public text, and I think it's legit to cite it the same way you would > cite any online resource. > > Perhaps it's good for us all to remind ourselves that everything we write > to the List IS not only public but permanently archived... > > C. > > >>> Bryan James Gordon 04/24/14 5:59 PM >>> > > Hi Saul, > > > > I've cited Siouan List messages a few times before, often because the List > is the only place I can find the relevant claims or data in an easily > accessible form. I certainly welcome having my own List messages cited. > That being said, for academic venues we have to keep in mind that the List > is not peer-reviewed in the ordinary sense, and it's hard to know how on- > or off-the-record things are. I'd like to continue your conversation about > the relationship between language and culture (and also take part more > actively in other Siouan stuff like helping out with edited volumes), but > right now I'm frantically trying to finish my comprehensive exams so I'll > have to put that off until the conference. Keep up the good work! > > > > Bryan > > > > 2014-04-24 15:27 GMT-07:00 Saul Schwartz : > > Dear all, > > > > I am wondering about the social conventions (stated or unstated) for > citing and/or quoting material from the Siouan Listserv. On the one hand, > the List is archived for anyone to view here ( > http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A0=SIOUAN), so it is in some > sense a public text. On the other hand, there is a strong sense of > community among members of the List, and I have a feeling that we sometimes > forget that we?re talking to each other in what is essentially a public > forum (in the sense that the public can listen in on our conversation; one > has to be a member to contribute, of course). I would be interested to hear > general thoughts or thoughts related to the specific case described below. > > > > For example, I am currently working on an article/dissertation chapter > about how the relationship between ?language? and ?culture? is changing for > many American Indians who no longer speak their heritage languages. > Specifically, I am trying point out the irony that while many people > support language revitalization because they believe that ?the language? is > essential for ?the culture,? revitalization efforts themselves often remove > heritage languages from their traditional cultural contexts in an effort to > make them more relevant to learners?for example, by coming up with Siouan > calques for English idioms. After discussing some examples from the > literature and my own experiences working with Jimm?s Ioway, Otoe-Missouria > Language Project, I wanted to mention some of the reactions on the List to > the recent request to translate ?curiouser and curiouser? from *Alice in > Wonderland*; specifically, I wanted to quote parts of Bryan?s, Jimm?s, > and Willem?s responses. I am including an excerpt from the draft of the > paper below to give some context, but the paragraph that includes > information from the Siouan Listserv is the second to last one. > > > > Has a convention for citation and/or quotation already been established > for the List? Are posts assumed to be citable and/or quotable unless > otherwise stated? Do we expect someone wanting to cite and/or quote a post > to contact the poster off-list to request permission before doing so? > Etc.... > > > > All best, > > Saul > > > > Ironically, while efforts to revitalize heritage languages are often > motivated by a belief that ?the language? is an essential part of ?the > culture,? language revitalization itself often ends up separating codes > from their traditionally associated cultural settings. David Samuels > (2006), for example, discusses how conflicts between Apache > traditionalists, who believe the language is too powerful for young > speakers, and Christians, who believe the language is too un-Christian for > their children, have narrowed the kind of language that can be taught in > the community to object identification?in other words, children are > learning a version of the language stripped of its indexical associations > with traditional culture practices. But, as an Apache bilingual teacher > wonders, if children are only learning how to use Apache to order a > cheeseburger, what?s the point? (2006:551). M. Eleanor Nevins (2004) finds > language classes are controversial in another Apache community because they > fail to teach communicative competence, that is, social conventions for > interaction that make particular codes culturally significant means of > communication. > > > > Meeks reports similar developments in the Yukon, where educational > routines used to teach Kaska in school settings conflict with Dene > interactional conventions and language socialization ideologies. > Furthermore, these educational routines ?emphasiz[e] the referential aspect > of language while downplaying all other indexical dimensions, and thereby > diminish their sustainability as complex systems of and for communication? > (2010:126). > > > > In their research on Pueblo groups in the Southwest, Debenport (xxxx) and > Whiteley (xxxx) also found conflicts between language revitalization and > cultural priorities. Many Tewas and Hopis believe that outsiders should not > have access to their languages and thus oppose revitalization efforts that > decontextualize codes from community-internal interpersonal interactions > and recontextualize them in forms that can circulate beyond the community > (e.g., online, in books, in schools attended by Navajo or other non-Pueblo > children, etc.). By refusing to support such language revitalization > efforts, community members are saying in effect that keeping their language > private is more important to them than maintaining the code. > > > > Jocelyn Ahlers provides another example of how languages can become > separated from their traditionally associated cultures in her description > of how moribund languages are used to perform Native identities through > memorized texts, a speech style she calls ?Native Language as Identity > Marker? (2006:62). She concludes that ?this speech style adds to the body > of evidence that language use is not indexical with cultural . . . > identity, but rather performative of it? (2006:72). By this I understand > her to mean that, unlike other kinds of code-switching, in this case a > speaker sends a message about their identity by their code choice > alone?what they are saying in the code refers to nothing outside itself > (denotatively, indexically, or otherwise) because it is ?code-switching, by > a nonfluent speaker, to a noncomprehending audience? (2006:69). In the case > of these memorized speeches, a code performs an identity without referring > to anything cultural. Whiteley (2003:715) offers a similar interpretation > of speeches by younger generations at Haida memorial potlatches, and the > Dauenhauers note an analogous development in written Tlingit when those who > have no or little knowledge of the language ?use literacy for its > decorative and symbolic effect or impression: for example, ?Merry > Christmas? in Tlingit on corporate windows or Christmas cards? (1998:89). > > > > To draw from my own experience, the Ioway, Otoe-Missouria Language Project > (IOMLP) makes a special effort to embed language in culturally significant > contexts that are also applicable to modern day life. For example, the > IOMLP designed and printed a tee shirt that includes a traditional floral > design, a diagram representing the shared histories of the Iowa, > Otoe-Missouria, and closely related Winnebago peoples (all labeled by their > Chiwere endo- or exo-nyms), an image of an elder and a child wearing > traditional ceremonial dance clothes, and a sentence in Chiwere that > translates, ?The language honors our elders and teaches our children.? > Similarly, the IOMLP designed mugs that include the Chiwere phrase for ?I > love my coffee? with the image of an Oneota-style ceramic vessel > superimposed over a medicine wheel. > > > > While the IOMLP makes a special effort to embed language in culturally > rich contexts, the Project is all too familiar with the opposite > possibility: that traditional language can be used in contexts far removed > from traditional cultural practices and values. The director of the Project > often receives requests to calque English idioms, for example, ?Go green!? > (for a tribal environmental awareness program) or ?I [heart icon] boobies!? > (for breast cancer awareness bracelets). He has also been asked to provide > Chiwere equivalents for terms from the video game *Halo*. These requests > are met with ambivalence since they have no connection to traditional > cultural practices or can even seem antithetical to them. For example, the > request for ?I [heart icon] boobies!? provoked a lesson on traditional > attitudes toward body parts, body functions, and sexuality. And when I > explained to the IOMLP what *Halo* is (a first-person shooter, i.e., > rather violent, video game), the director expressed reservations that > Chiwere language be associated with it at all. In some cases, then, > indigenous languages can be used not just for cultural practices that are > seen as untraditional (ordering a cheeseburger) but also anti-traditional > (ones that promote dominant society attitudes toward sex, violence, etc.). > > > > This phenomenon is not limited to Chiwere, however, and many people > involved in Siouan language documentation and revitalization receive > similar requests. John Koontz, for example, received so many requests to > translate stock English phrases as well as names for children and pets into > Omaha-Ponca that he posted his general response to such questions on the > FAQ section of his website. Once, he was even asked (presumably as a joke) > for a Native American name for an RV; he responded in kind with *Hotanke*, > an Anglicized spelling of the Dakotan word for ?Winnebago? (Winnebago is a > popular brand of RV in the United States, much to the chagrin of the > Winnebago Indians). > > > > Recently, a request appeared on the Siouan Listserv to translate a line > from *Alice in Wonderland* (?curiouser and curiouser, cried Alice?) into > various Siouan languages for some kind of polyglot compilation. While some > found the intellectual challenge of translating a Victorian neologism into > Siouan languages intriguing, others were less receptive to the request > because of its perceived triviality and irrelevance to Native communities: > ?It?s a more distinguished request than pet names and such, but it?s not > the kind of translation work I would prefer to spend my time on. Why don?t > people ask us to translate Microsoft Word or a K-12 curriculum or something > important?? and ?I have other priorities and am unclear on the need for [a > translation of] the particular quote from a story which has nothing in > common with Native American culture. . . . To spend time on the translation > of materials that have no immediate application to the language communities > is nonsensical and, for my part, a waste of time.? One linguist shared his > general guidelines for responding to such requests: ?One has to pick and > choose. If it is short and culturally appropriate, I generally agree to it. > . . . Then other requests have to be nixed, like the set of ?Spring Break? > phrases I once was asked to translate, things like ?I am so drunk,? and > ?Where is the bathroom??? > > > > In short, while language revitalization seeks to expand opportunities for > the continued use of heritage languages by making them seem more applicable > to current social conditions, there is a danger that the codes may become > disassociated from the traditional cultures that motivate their > revitalization in the first place. If what we care about is not only > preserving linguistic diversity (in the sense of grammatical structures) > but also preserving distinctive *cultural* worldviews and lifeways by > maintaining heritage languages, then we have won the battle while losing > the war if people are only learning and using heritage languages to > participate in the practices of the dominant society. > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's > DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from > Yahoo.com > > > > > > -- > *********************************************************** > Bryan James Gordon, MA > Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology > University of Arizona > *********************************************************** > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's > DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from > Yahoo.com > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's > DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from > Yahoo.com > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's > DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from > Yahoo.com > -- *********************************************************** Bryan James Gordon, MA Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology University of Arizona *********************************************************** -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK Tue Apr 29 17:11:18 2014 From: shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK (bruce Ingham) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2014 18:11:18 +0100 Subject: citation/quotation conventions for list? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think that Bryan's ideas on the subject are very sensible practical and will encourage non-academics to participate. Bruce On 29 Apr 2014, at 02:53, Bryan James Gordon wrote: > Conference g?tha?di wit??be-m?zhi-t?e ??tha-m?zhi Mark, thig?ni ?da? ma?n?? ka?bth?ga?. > > Mark raises a very important point about non-academics' access. I agree that we should give this some detailed attention at the conference, but I want us to keep non-academic audiences, especially non-linguists in Native communities, in mind. Us academics have rules to follow, and our citation practices are interwoven with ideologies of due credit, verifiability and (!!!!) intellectual property. We enforce these rules on each other, but personally I don't believe we have any business enforcing them on Native communities (many of whom have objected to linguists' complicity in the "theft" of their languages and are fighting back along lines of intellectual property), nice as it may be to be properly cited. I know that my reasoning may sound a bit harsh to some of my fellow academics, but I hope that we can abstain from demanding citation practices from non-academics nonetheless. > > Bryan > > > 2014-04-28 9:05 GMT-07:00 Mark Awakuni-Swetland : > Aloha all, > > I am just now catching up with this timely conversation regarding quotation/citation conventions. > > While I will be unable to travel to this year?s SCLConf, can I encourage you all to brainstorm some protocols for how to cite the SIOUANList? > > > > I recognize that the List is a resource for both academic and community folks. > > > > I do not want to burden or hinder non-academics from using the List and Archives. However a set of examples for how to cite List sources would be helpful to those wanting to cite sources as expected by journal and book publishers, MA & PhD committees, and other senior faculty. > > > > Several of you have already provided some approaches on this topic. > > > > Would someone be willing to spearhead a discussion on this at the conference? > > > > Many thanks for considering this request. > > > > Mark Awakuni-Swetland > > > > > > Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. > > Associate Professor > > Anthropology & Ethnic Studies > > Native American Studies > > University of Nebraska > > Oldfather Hall 841 > > Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 > > > > Office: 402-472-3455 > > FAX: 402-472-9642 > > http://omahalanguage.unl.edu > > http://omahaponca.unl.edu > > > > ?Tenixa uqpatha egoN?, a biama winisi akHa. > > > > Lincoln Gem and Mineral Club, Inc. > > Post Office Box 5342 > > Lincoln, NE 68505-0342 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Catherine Rudin > Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 9:22 PM > To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU > > > Subject: Re: citation/quotation conventions for list? > > > > I also have cited List messages on occasion, though I think only in pretty informal contexts like conference presentations. As you point out, Saul, it is a public text, and I think it's legit to cite it the same way you would cite any online resource. > > > Perhaps it's good for us all to remind ourselves that everything we write to the List IS not only public but permanently archived... > > C. > > >>> Bryan James Gordon 04/24/14 5:59 PM >>> > > Hi Saul, > > > > I've cited Siouan List messages a few times before, often because the List is the only place I can find the relevant claims or data in an easily accessible form. I certainly welcome having my own List messages cited. That being said, for academic venues we have to keep in mind that the List is not peer-reviewed in the ordinary sense, and it's hard to know how on- or off-the-record things are. I'd like to continue your conversation about the relationship between language and culture (and also take part more actively in other Siouan stuff like helping out with edited volumes), but right now I'm frantically trying to finish my comprehensive exams so I'll have to put that off until the conference. Keep up the good work! > > > > Bryan > > > > 2014-04-24 15:27 GMT-07:00 Saul Schwartz : > > Dear all, > > > > I am wondering about the social conventions (stated or unstated) for citing and/or quoting material from the Siouan Listserv. On the one hand, the List is archived for anyone to view here (http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A0=SIOUAN), so it is in some sense a public text. On the other hand, there is a strong sense of community among members of the List, and I have a feeling that we sometimes forget that we?re talking to each other in what is essentially a public forum (in the sense that the public can listen in on our conversation; one has to be a member to contribute, of course). I would be interested to hear general thoughts or thoughts related to the specific case described below. > > > > For example, I am currently working on an article/dissertation chapter about how the relationship between ?language? and ?culture? is changing for many American Indians who no longer speak their heritage languages. Specifically, I am trying point out the irony that while many people support language revitalization because they believe that ?the language? is essential for ?the culture,? revitalization efforts themselves often remove heritage languages from their traditional cultural contexts in an effort to make them more relevant to learners?for example, by coming up with Siouan calques for English idioms. After discussing some examples from the literature and my own experiences working with Jimm?s Ioway, Otoe-Missouria Language Project, I wanted to mention some of the reactions on the List to the recent request to translate ?curiouser and curiouser? from Alice in Wonderland; specifically, I wanted to quote parts of Bryan?s, Jimm?s, and Willem?s responses. I am including an excerpt from the draft of the paper below to give some context, but the paragraph that includes information from the Siouan Listserv is the second to last one. > > > > Has a convention for citation and/or quotation already been established for the List? Are posts assumed to be citable and/or quotable unless otherwise stated? Do we expect someone wanting to cite and/or quote a post to contact the poster off-list to request permission before doing so? Etc.... > > > > All best, > > Saul > > > > Ironically, while efforts to revitalize heritage languages are often motivated by a belief that ?the language? is an essential part of ?the culture,? language revitalization itself often ends up separating codes from their traditionally associated cultural settings. David Samuels (2006), for example, discusses how conflicts between Apache traditionalists, who believe the language is too powerful for young speakers, and Christians, who believe the language is too un-Christian for their children, have narrowed the kind of language that can be taught in the community to object identification?in other words, children are learning a version of the language stripped of its indexical associations with traditional culture practices. But, as an Apache bilingual teacher wonders, if children are only learning how to use Apache to order a cheeseburger, what?s the point? (2006:551). M. Eleanor Nevins (2004) finds language classes are controversial in another Apache community because they fail to teach communicative competence, that is, social conventions for interaction that make particular codes culturally significant means of communication. > > > > Meeks reports similar developments in the Yukon, where educational routines used to teach Kaska in school settings conflict with Dene interactional conventions and language socialization ideologies. Furthermore, these educational routines ?emphasiz[e] the referential aspect of language while downplaying all other indexical dimensions, and thereby diminish their sustainability as complex systems of and for communication? (2010:126). > > > > In their research on Pueblo groups in the Southwest, Debenport (xxxx) and Whiteley (xxxx) also found conflicts between language revitalization and cultural priorities. Many Tewas and Hopis believe that outsiders should not have access to their languages and thus oppose revitalization efforts that decontextualize codes from community-internal interpersonal interactions and recontextualize them in forms that can circulate beyond the community (e.g., online, in books, in schools attended by Navajo or other non-Pueblo children, etc.). By refusing to support such language revitalization efforts, community members are saying in effect that keeping their language private is more important to them than maintaining the code. > > > > Jocelyn Ahlers provides another example of how languages can become separated from their traditionally associated cultures in her description of how moribund languages are used to perform Native identities through memorized texts, a speech style she calls ?Native Language as Identity Marker? (2006:62). She concludes that ?this speech style adds to the body of evidence that language use is not indexical with cultural . . . identity, but rather performative of it? (2006:72). By this I understand her to mean that, unlike other kinds of code-switching, in this case a speaker sends a message about their identity by their code choice alone?what they are saying in the code refers to nothing outside itself (denotatively, indexically, or otherwise) because it is ?code-switching, by a nonfluent speaker, to a noncomprehending audience? (2006:69). In the case of these memorized speeches, a code performs an identity without referring to anything cultural. Whiteley (2003:715) offers a similar interpretation of speeches by younger generations at Haida memorial potlatches, and the Dauenhauers note an analogous development in written Tlingit when those who have no or little knowledge of the language ?use literacy for its decorative and symbolic effect or impression: for example, ?Merry Christmas? in Tlingit on corporate windows or Christmas cards? (1998:89). > > > > To draw from my own experience, the Ioway, Otoe-Missouria Language Project (IOMLP) makes a special effort to embed language in culturally significant contexts that are also applicable to modern day life. For example, the IOMLP designed and printed a tee shirt that includes a traditional floral design, a diagram representing the shared histories of the Iowa, Otoe-Missouria, and closely related Winnebago peoples (all labeled by their Chiwere endo- or exo-nyms), an image of an elder and a child wearing traditional ceremonial dance clothes, and a sentence in Chiwere that translates, ?The language honors our elders and teaches our children.? Similarly, the IOMLP designed mugs that include the Chiwere phrase for ?I love my coffee? with the image of an Oneota-style ceramic vessel superimposed over a medicine wheel. > > > > While the IOMLP makes a special effort to embed language in culturally rich contexts, the Project is all too familiar with the opposite possibility: that traditional language can be used in contexts far removed from traditional cultural practices and values. The director of the Project often receives requests to calque English idioms, for example, ?Go green!? (for a tribal environmental awareness program) or ?I [heart icon] boobies!? (for breast cancer awareness bracelets). He has also been asked to provide Chiwere equivalents for terms from the video game Halo. These requests are met with ambivalence since they have no connection to traditional cultural practices or can even seem antithetical to them. For example, the request for ?I [heart icon] boobies!? provoked a lesson on traditional attitudes toward body parts, body functions, and sexuality. And when I explained to the IOMLP what Halo is (a first-person shooter, i.e., rather violent, video game), the director expressed reservations that Chiwere language be associated with it at all. In some cases, then, indigenous languages can be used not just for cultural practices that are seen as untraditional (ordering a cheeseburger) but also anti-traditional (ones that promote dominant society attitudes toward sex, violence, etc.). > > > > This phenomenon is not limited to Chiwere, however, and many people involved in Siouan language documentation and revitalization receive similar requests. John Koontz, for example, received so many requests to translate stock English phrases as well as names for children and pets into Omaha-Ponca that he posted his general response to such questions on the FAQ section of his website. Once, he was even asked (presumably as a joke) for a Native American name for an RV; he responded in kind with Hotanke, an Anglicized spelling of the Dakotan word for ?Winnebago? (Winnebago is a popular brand of RV in the United States, much to the chagrin of the Winnebago Indians). > > > > Recently, a request appeared on the Siouan Listserv to translate a line from Alice in Wonderland (?curiouser and curiouser, cried Alice?) into various Siouan languages for some kind of polyglot compilation. While some found the intellectual challenge of translating a Victorian neologism into Siouan languages intriguing, others were less receptive to the request because of its perceived triviality and irrelevance to Native communities: ?It?s a more distinguished request than pet names and such, but it?s not the kind of translation work I would prefer to spend my time on. Why don?t people ask us to translate Microsoft Word or a K-12 curriculum or something important?? and ?I have other priorities and am unclear on the need for [a translation of] the particular quote from a story which has nothing in common with Native American culture. . . . To spend time on the translation of materials that have no immediate application to the language communities is nonsensical and, for my part, a waste of time.? One linguist shared his general guidelines for responding to such requests: ?One has to pick and choose. If it is short and culturally appropriate, I generally agree to it. . . . Then other requests have to be nixed, like the set of ?Spring Break? phrases I once was asked to translate, things like ?I am so drunk,? and ?Where is the bathroom??? > > > > In short, while language revitalization seeks to expand opportunities for the continued use of heritage languages by making them seem more applicable to current social conditions, there is a danger that the codes may become disassociated from the traditional cultures that motivate their revitalization in the first place. If what we care about is not only preserving linguistic diversity (in the sense of grammatical structures) but also preserving distinctive cultural worldviews and lifeways by maintaining heritage languages, then we have won the battle while losing the war if people are only learning and using heritage languages to participate in the practices of the dominant society. > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com > > > > > > > -- > *********************************************************** > Bryan James Gordon, MA > Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology > University of Arizona > *********************************************************** > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com > > > > -- > *********************************************************** > Bryan James Gordon, MA > Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology > University of Arizona > *********************************************************** > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From carudin1 at WSC.EDU Tue Apr 29 23:52:25 2014 From: carudin1 at WSC.EDU (Catherine Rudin) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2014 18:52:25 -0500 Subject: citation/quotation conventions for list? Message-ID: George -- Good idea! >>> George Wilmes 04/29/14 6:38 PM >>> Whatever decision the group arrives at, I wonder if the listserv can be programmed to automatically append something to every message, such as "To cite this posting, ?" followed by a short sample citation? It would be even better if it could be programmed to generate the actual citation that should be used, but that might be asking too much. On Tue, Apr 29, 2014 at 12:11 PM, bruce Ingham wrote: I think that Bryan's ideas on the subject are very sensible practical and will encourage non-academics to participate. Bruce On 29 Apr 2014, at 02:53, Bryan James Gordon wrote: Conference g?tha?di wit??be-m?zhi-t?e ??tha-m?zhi Mark, thig?ni ?da? ma?n?? ka?bth?ga?. Mark raises a very important point about non-academics' access. I agree that we should give this some detailed attention at the conference, but I want us to keep non-academic audiences, especially non-linguists in Native communities, in mind. Us academics have rules to follow, and our citation practices are interwoven with ideologies of due credit, verifiability and (!!!!) intellectual property. We enforce these rules on each other, but personally I don't believe we have any business enforcing them on Native communities (many of whom have objected to linguists' complicity in the "theft" of their languages and are fighting back along lines of intellectual property), nice as it may be to be properly cited. I know that my reasoning may sound a bit harsh to some of my fellow academics, but I hope that we can abstain from demanding citation practices from non-academics nonetheless. Bryan 2014-04-28 9:05 GMT-07:00 Mark Awakuni-Swetland : Aloha all, I am just now catching up with this timely conversation regarding quotation/citation conventions. While I will be unable to travel to this year?s SCLConf, can I encourage you all to brainstorm some protocols for how to cite the SIOUANList? I recognize that the List is a resource for both academic and community folks. I do not want to burden or hinder non-academics from using the List and Archives. However a set of examples for how to cite List sources would be helpful to those wanting to cite sources as expected by journal and book publishers, MA & PhD committees, and other senior faculty. Several of you have already provided some approaches on this topic. Would someone be willing to spearhead a discussion on this at the conference? Many thanks for considering this request. Mark Awakuni-Swetland Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. Associate Professor Anthropology & Ethnic Studies Native American Studies University of Nebraska Oldfather Hall 841 Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 Office: 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 http://omahalanguage.unl.edu http://omahaponca.unl.edu ?Tenixa uqpatha egoN?, a biama winisi akHa. Lincoln Gem and Mineral Club, Inc. Post Office Box 5342 Lincoln, NE 68505-0342 From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu]On Behalf Of Catherine Rudin Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 9:22 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: citation/quotation conventions for list? I also have cited List messages on occasion, though I think only in pretty informal contexts like conference presentations. As you point out, Saul, it is a public text, and I think it's legit to cite it the same way you would cite any online resource. Perhaps it's good for us all to remind ourselves that everything we write to the List IS not only public but permanently archived... C. >>> Bryan James Gordon 04/24/14 5:59 PM >>> Hi Saul, I've cited Siouan List messages a few times before, often because the List is the only place I can find the relevant claims or data in an easily accessible form. I certainly welcome having my own List messages cited. That being said, for academic venues we the List is not peer-reviewed in the ordinary sense, and it's hard to know how on- or off-the-record things are. I'd like to continue your conversation about the relationship between language and culture (and also take part more actively in other Siouan stuff like helping out with edited volumes), but right now I'm frantically trying to finish my comprehensive exams so I'll have to put that off until the conference. Keep up the good work! Bryan 2014-04-24 15:27 GMT-07:00 Saul Schwartz : Dear all, I am wondering about the social conventions (stated or unstated) for citing and/or quoting material from the Siouan Listserv. On the one hand, the List is archived for anyone to view here (http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A0=SIOUAN), so it is in some sense a public text. On the other hand, there is a strong sense of community among members of the List, and I have a feeling that we sometimes forget that we?re talking to each other in what is essentially a public forum (in the sense that the public can listen in on our conversation; one has to be a member to contribute, of course). I would be interested to hear general thoughts or thoughts related to the specific case described below. For example, I am currently working on an article/dissertation chapter about how the relationship between ?language? and ?culture? is changing for many American Indians who no longer speak their heritage languages. Specifically, I am trying point out the irony that while many people support language revitalization because they believe that ?the language? is essential for ?the culture,? revitalization efforts themselves often remove heritage languages from their traditional cultural contexts in an effort to make them more relevant to learners?for example, by coming up with Siouan calques for English idioms. After discussing some examples from the literature and my own experiences working with Jimm?s Ioway, Otoe-Missouria Language Project, I wanted to mention some of the reactions on the List to the recent request to translate ?curiouser and curiouser? fromAlice in Wonderland; specifically, I wanted to quote parts of Bryan?s, Jimm?s, and Willem?s responses. I am including an excerpt from the draft of the paper below to give some context, but the paragraph that includes information from the Siouan Listserv is the second to last one. Has a convention for citation and/or quotation already been established for the List? Are posts assumed to be citable and/or quotable unless otherwise stated? Do we expect someone wanting to cite and/or quote a post to contact the poster off-list to request permission before doing so? Etc.... All best, Saul Ironically, while efforts to revitalize heritage languages are often motivated by a belief that ?the language? is an essential part of ?the culture,? language revitalization itself often ends up separating codes from their traditionally associated cultural settings. David Samuels (2006), for example, discusses how conflicts between Apache traditionalists, who believe the language is too powerful for young speakers, and Christians, who believe the language is too un-Christian for their children, have narrowed the kind of language that can be taught in the community to object identification?in other words, children are learning a version of the language stripped of its indexical associations with traditional culture practices. But, as an Apache bilingual teacher wonders, if children are only learning how to use Apache to order a cheeseburger, what?s the point? (2006:551). M. Eleanor Nevins (2004) finds language classes are controversial in another Apache community because they fail to teach communicative competence, that is, social conventions for interaction that make particular codes culturally significant means of communication. Meeks reports similar developments in the Yukon, where educational routines used to teach Kaska in school settings conflinteractional conventions and language socialization ideologies. Furthermore, these educational routines ?emphasiz[e] the referential aspect of language while downplaying all other indexical dimensions, and thereby diminish their sustainability as complex systems of and for communication? (2010:126). In their research on Pueblo groups in the Southwest,Debenport (xxxx) and Whiteley (xxxx) also found conflicts between language revitalization and cultural priorities. Many Tewas and Hopis believe that outsiders should not have access to their languages and thus oppose revitalization efforts that decontextualize codes from community-internal interpersonal interactions and recontextualize them in forms that can circulate beyond the community (e.g., online, in books, in schools attended by Navajo or other non-Pueblo children, etc.). By refusing to support such language revitalization efforts, community members are saying in effect that keeping their language private is more important to them than maintaining the code. Jocelyn Ahlers provides another example of how languages can become separated from their traditionally associated cultures in her description of how moribund languages are used to perform Native identities through memorized texts, a speech style she calls ?Native Language as Identity Marker? (2006:62). She concludes that ?this speech style adds to the body of evidence that language use is not indexical with cultural . . . identity, but rather performative of it? (2006:72). By this I understand her to mean that, unlike other kinds of code-switching, in this case a speaker sends a message about their identity by their code choice alone?what they are saying in the code refers to nothing outside itself (denotatively, indexically, or otherwise) because it is ?code-switching, by a nonfluent speaker, to a noncomprehending audience? (2006:69). In the case of these memorized speeches, a code performs an identity without referring to anything cultural. Whiteley (2003:715) offers a similar interpretation of speeches by younger generations at Haida memorial potlatches, and the Dauenhauers note an analogous development in written Tlingit when those who have no or little knowledge of the language ?use literacy for its decorative and symbolic effect or impression: for example, ?Merry Christmas? in Tlingit on corporate windows or Christmas cards? (1998:89). To draw from my own experience, the Ioway, Otoe-Missouria Language Project (IOMLP) makes a special effort to embed language in culturally significant contexts that are also applicable to modern day life. For example, the IOMLP designed and printed a tee shirt that includes a traditional floral design, a diagram representing the shared histories of the Iowa, Otoe-Missouria, and closely related Winnebago peoples (all labeled by their Chiwere endo- or exo-nyms), an image of an elder and a child wearing traditional ceremonial dance clothes, and a sentence in Chiwere that translates, ?The language honors our elders and teaches our children.? Similarly, the IOMLP designed mugs that include the Chiwere phrase for ?I love my coffee? with the image of an Oneota-style ceramic vessel superimposed over a medicine wheel. While the IOMLP makes a special effort to embed language in culturally rich contexts, the Project is all too familiar with the opposite possibility: that traditional language can be used in contexts far removed from traditional cultural practices and values. The director of the Project often receives requests to calque English idioms, for example, ?Go green!? (for a tribal environmental awareness program) or ?I [heart icon] boobies!? (for breast cancer awareness bracelets). He has also been asked to provide Chiwere equivalents for terms from the video gameHalo. These requests are met with ambivalence since they have no connection to traditional cultural practices or can even seem antithetical to them. For example, the request for ?I [heart icon] boobies!? provoked a lesson on traditional attitudes toward body parts, body functions, and sexuality. And when I explained to the IOMLP whatHalo is (a first-person shooter, i.e., rather violent, video game), the director expressed reservations that Chiwere language be associated with it at all. In some cases, then, indigenous languages can be used not just for cultural practices that are seen as untraditional (ordering a cheeseburger) but also anti-traditional (ones that promote dominant society attitudes toward sex, violence, etc.). This phenomenon is not limited to Chiwere, however, and many people involved in Siouan language documentation and revitalization receive similar requests. John Koontz, for example, received so many requests to translate stock English phrases as well as names for children and pets into Omaha-Ponca that he posted his general response to such questions on the FAQ section of his website. Once, he was even asked (presumably as a joke) for a Native American name for an RV; he responded in kind withHotanke, an Anglicized spelling of the Dakotan word for ?Winnebago? (Winnebago is a popular brand of RV in the United States, much to the chagrin of the Winnebago Indians). Recently, a request appeared on the Siouan Listserv to translate a line fromAlice in Wonderland (?curiouser and curiouser, cried Alice?) into various Siouan languages for some kind of polyglot compilation. While some found the intellectual challenge of translating a Victorian neologism into Siouan languages intriguing, others were less receptive to the request because of its perceived triviality and irrelevance to Native communities: ?It?s a more distinguished request than pet names and such, but it?s not the kind of translation work I would prefer to spend my time on. Why don?t people ask us to translate Microsoft Word or a K-12 curriculum or something important?? and ?I have other priorities and am unclear on the need for [a translation of] the particular quote from a story which has nothing in common with Native American culture. . . . To spend time on the translation of materials that have no immediate application to the language communities is nonsensical and, for my part, a waste of time.? One linguist shared his general guidelines for responding to such requests: ?One has to pick and choose. If it is short and culturally appropriate, I generally agree to it. . . . Then other requests have to be nixed, like the set of ?Spring Break? phrases I once was asked to translate, things like ?I am so drunk,? and ?Where is the bathroom??? In short, while language revitalization seeks to expand opportunities for the continued use of heritage languages by making them seem more applicable to current social conditions, there is a danger that the codes may become disassociated from the traditional cultures that motivate their revitalization in the first place. If what we care about is not only preserving linguistic diversity (in the sense of grammatical structures) but also preserving distinctive cultural worldviews and lifeways by maintaining heritage languages, then we have won the battle while losing the war if people are only learning and using heritage languages to participate in the practices of the dominant society. -- Manage your subscription athttp://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy:listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- *********************************************************** Bryan James Gordon, MA Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology University of Arizona *********************************************************** -- Manage your subscription athttp://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com --Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu.Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com Bryan James Gordon, MA Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology University of Arizona *********************************************************** --Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu.Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com --Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu.Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com --Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu.Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From george.wilmes at gmail.com Tue Apr 29 23:36:26 2014 From: george.wilmes at gmail.com (George Wilmes) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2014 18:36:26 -0500 Subject: citation/quotation conventions for list? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Whatever decision the group arrives at, I wonder if the listserv can be programmed to automatically append something to every message, such as "To cite this posting, ?" followed by a short sample citation? It would be even better if it could be programmed to generate the actual citation that should be used, but that might be asking too much. On Tue, Apr 29, 2014 at 12:11 PM, bruce Ingham wrote: > I think that Bryan's ideas on the subject are very sensible practical and > will encourage non-academics to participate. > > Bruce > > On 29 Apr 2014, at 02:53, Bryan James Gordon > wrote: > > Conference g?tha?di wit??be-m?zhi-t?e ??tha-m?zhi Mark, thig?ni ?da? > ma?n?? ka?bth?ga?. > > Mark raises a very important point about non-academics' access. I agree > that we should give this some detailed attention at the conference, but I > want us to keep non-academic audiences, especially non-linguists in Native > communities, in mind. Us academics have rules to follow, and our citation > practices are interwoven with ideologies of due credit, verifiability and > (!!!!) intellectual property. We enforce these rules on each other, but > personally I don't believe we have any business enforcing them on Native > communities (many of whom have objected to linguists' complicity in the > "theft" of their languages and are fighting back along lines of > intellectual property), nice as it may be to be properly cited. I know that > my reasoning may sound a bit harsh to some of my fellow academics, but I > hope that we can abstain from demanding citation practices from > non-academics nonetheless. > > Bryan > > > 2014-04-28 9:05 GMT-07:00 Mark Awakuni-Swetland < > mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu>: > >> Aloha all, >> >> I am just now catching up with this timely conversation regarding >> quotation/citation conventions. >> >> While I will be unable to travel to this year?s SCLConf, can I encourage >> you all to brainstorm some protocols for how to cite the SIOUANList? >> >> >> >> I recognize that the List is a resource for both academic and community >> folks. >> >> >> >> I do not want to burden or hinder non-academics from using the List and >> Archives. However a set of examples for how to cite List sources would be >> helpful to those wanting to cite sources as expected by journal and book >> publishers, MA & PhD committees, and other senior faculty. >> >> >> >> Several of you have already provided some approaches on this topic. >> >> >> >> Would someone be willing to spearhead a discussion on this at the >> conference? >> >> >> >> Many thanks for considering this request. >> >> >> >> Mark Awakuni-Swetland >> >> >> >> >> >> Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. >> >> Associate Professor >> >> Anthropology & Ethnic Studies >> >> Native American Studies >> >> University of Nebraska >> >> Oldfather Hall 841 >> >> Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 >> >> >> >> Office: 402-472-3455 >> >> FAX: 402-472-9642 >> >> http://omahalanguage.unl.edu >> >> http://omahaponca.unl.edu >> >> >> >> ?Tenixa uqpatha egoN?, a biama winisi akHa. >> >> >> >> Lincoln Gem and Mineral Club, Inc. >> >> Post Office Box 5342 >> >> Lincoln, NE 68505-0342 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf >> Of *Catherine Rudin >> *Sent:* Thursday, April 24, 2014 9:22 PM >> *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU >> >> *Subject:* Re: citation/quotation conventions for list? >> >> >> >> I also have cited List messages on occasion, though I think only in >> pretty informal contexts like conference presentations. As you point out, >> Saul, it is a public text, and I think it's legit to cite it the same way >> you would cite any online resource. >> >> Perhaps it's good for us all to remind ourselves that everything we write >> to the List IS not only public but permanently archived... >> >> C. >> >> >>> Bryan James Gordon 04/24/14 5:59 PM >>> >> >> Hi Saul, >> >> >> >> I've cited Siouan List messages a few times before, often because the >> List is the only place I can find the relevant claims or data in an easily >> accessible form. I certainly welcome having my own List messages cited. >> That being said, for academic venues we have to keep in mind that the List >> is not peer-reviewed in the ordinary sense, and it's hard to know how on- >> or off-the-record things are. I'd like to continue your conversation about >> the relationship between language and culture (and also take part more >> actively in other Siouan stuff like helping out with edited volumes), but >> right now I'm frantically trying to finish my comprehensive exams so I'll >> have to put that off until the conference. Keep up the good work! >> >> >> >> Bryan >> >> >> >> 2014-04-24 15:27 GMT-07:00 Saul Schwartz : >> >> Dear all, >> >> >> >> I am wondering about the social conventions (stated or unstated) for >> citing and/or quoting material from the Siouan Listserv. On the one hand, >> the List is archived for anyone to view here ( >> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A0=SIOUAN), so it is in some >> sense a public text. On the other hand, there is a strong sense of >> community among members of the List, and I have a feeling that we sometimes >> forget that we?re talking to each other in what is essentially a public >> forum (in the sense that the public can listen in on our conversation; one >> has to be a member to contribute, of course). I would be interested to hear >> general thoughts or thoughts related to the specific case described below. >> >> >> >> For example, I am currently working on an article/dissertation chapter >> about how the relationship between ?language? and ?culture? is changing for >> many American Indians who no longer speak their heritage languages. >> Specifically, I am trying point out the irony that while many people >> support language revitalization because they believe that ?the language? is >> essential for ?the culture,? revitalization efforts themselves often remove >> heritage languages from their traditional cultural contexts in an effort to >> make them more relevant to learners?for example, by coming up with Siouan >> calques for English idioms. After discussing some examples from the >> literature and my own experiences working with Jimm?s Ioway, Otoe-Missouria >> Language Project, I wanted to mention some of the reactions on the List to >> the recent request to translate ?curiouser and curiouser? from *Alice in >> Wonderland*; specifically, I wanted to quote parts of Bryan?s, Jimm?s, >> and Willem?s responses. I am including an excerpt from the draft of the >> paper below to give some context, but the paragraph that includes >> information from the Siouan Listserv is the second to last one. >> >> >> >> Has a convention for citation and/or quotation already been established >> for the List? Are posts assumed to be citable and/or quotable unless >> otherwise stated? Do we expect someone wanting to cite and/or quote a post >> to contact the poster off-list to request permission before doing so? >> Etc.... >> >> >> >> All best, >> >> Saul >> >> >> >> Ironically, while efforts to revitalize heritage languages are often >> motivated by a belief that ?the language? is an essential part of ?the >> culture,? language revitalization itself often ends up separating codes >> from their traditionally associated cultural settings. David Samuels >> (2006), for example, discusses how conflicts between Apache >> traditionalists, who believe the language is too powerful for young >> speakers, and Christians, who believe the language is too un-Christian for >> their children, have narrowed the kind of language that can be taught in >> the community to object identification?in other words, children are >> learning a version of the language stripped of its indexical associations >> with traditional culture practices. But, as an Apache bilingual teacher >> wonders, if children are only learning how to use Apache to order a >> cheeseburger, what?s the point? (2006:551). M. Eleanor Nevins (2004) finds >> language classes are controversial in another Apache community because they >> fail to teach communicative competence, that is, social conventions for >> interaction that make particular codes culturally significant means of >> communication. >> >> >> >> Meeks reports similar developments in the Yukon, where educational >> routines used to teach Kaska in school settings conflict with Dene >> interactional conventions and language socialization ideologies. >> Furthermore, these educational routines ?emphasiz[e] the referential aspect >> of language while downplaying all other indexical dimensions, and thereby >> diminish their sustainability as complex systems of and for communication? >> (2010:126). >> >> >> >> In their research on Pueblo groups in the Southwest, Debenport (xxxx) >> and Whiteley (xxxx) also found conflicts between language revitalization >> and cultural priorities. Many Tewas and Hopis believe that outsiders should >> not have access to their languages and thus oppose revitalization efforts >> that decontextualize codes from community-internal interpersonal >> interactions and recontextualize them in forms that can circulate beyond >> the community (e.g., online, in books, in schools attended by Navajo or >> other non-Pueblo children, etc.). By refusing to support such language >> revitalization efforts, community members are saying in effect that keeping >> their language private is more important to them than maintaining the code. >> >> >> >> Jocelyn Ahlers provides another example of how languages can become >> separated from their traditionally associated cultures in her description >> of how moribund languages are used to perform Native identities through >> memorized texts, a speech style she calls ?Native Language as Identity >> Marker? (2006:62). She concludes that ?this speech style adds to the body >> of evidence that language use is not indexical with cultural . . . >> identity, but rather performative of it? (2006:72). By this I understand >> her to mean that, unlike other kinds of code-switching, in this case a >> speaker sends a message about their identity by their code choice >> alone?what they are saying in the code refers to nothing outside itself >> (denotatively, indexically, or otherwise) because it is ?code-switching, by >> a nonfluent speaker, to a noncomprehending audience? (2006:69). In the case >> of these memorized speeches, a code performs an identity without referring >> to anything cultural. Whiteley (2003:715) offers a similar interpretation >> of speeches by younger generations at Haida memorial potlatches, and the >> Dauenhauers note an analogous development in written Tlingit when those who >> have no or little knowledge of the language ?use literacy for its >> decorative and symbolic effect or impression: for example, ?Merry >> Christmas? in Tlingit on corporate windows or Christmas cards? (1998:89). >> >> >> >> To draw from my own experience, the Ioway, Otoe-Missouria Language >> Project (IOMLP) makes a special effort to embed language in culturally >> significant contexts that are also applicable to modern day life. For >> example, the IOMLP designed and printed a tee shirt that includes a >> traditional floral design, a diagram representing the shared histories of >> the Iowa, Otoe-Missouria, and closely related Winnebago peoples (all >> labeled by their Chiwere endo- or exo-nyms), an image of an elder and a >> child wearing traditional ceremonial dance clothes, and a sentence in >> Chiwere that translates, ?The language honors our elders and teaches our >> children.? Similarly, the IOMLP designed mugs that include the Chiwere >> phrase for ?I love my coffee? with the image of an Oneota-style ceramic >> vessel superimposed over a medicine wheel. >> >> >> >> While the IOMLP makes a special effort to embed language in culturally >> rich contexts, the Project is all too familiar with the opposite >> possibility: that traditional language can be used in contexts far removed >> from traditional cultural practices and values. The director of the Project >> often receives requests to calque English idioms, for example, ?Go green!? >> (for a tribal environmental awareness program) or ?I [heart icon] boobies!? >> (for breast cancer awareness bracelets). He has also been asked to provide >> Chiwere equivalents for terms from the video game *Halo*. These requests >> are met with ambivalence since they have no connection to traditional >> cultural practices or can even seem antithetical to them. For example, the >> request for ?I [heart icon] boobies!? provoked a lesson on traditional >> attitudes toward body parts, body functions, and sexuality. And when I >> explained to the IOMLP what *Halo* is (a first-person shooter, i.e., >> rather violent, video game), the director expressed reservations that >> Chiwere language be associated with it at all. In some cases, then, >> indigenous languages can be used not just for cultural practices that are >> seen as untraditional (ordering a cheeseburger) but also anti-traditional >> (ones that promote dominant society attitudes toward sex, violence, etc.). >> >> >> >> This phenomenon is not limited to Chiwere, however, and many people >> involved in Siouan language documentation and revitalization receive >> similar requests. John Koontz, for example, received so many requests to >> translate stock English phrases as well as names for children and pets into >> Omaha-Ponca that he posted his general response to such questions on the >> FAQ section of his website. Once, he was even asked (presumably as a joke) >> for a Native American name for an RV; he responded in kind with *Hotanke*, >> an Anglicized spelling of the Dakotan word for ?Winnebago? (Winnebago is a >> popular brand of RV in the United States, much to the chagrin of the >> Winnebago Indians). >> >> >> >> Recently, a request appeared on the Siouan Listserv to translate a line >> from *Alice in Wonderland* (?curiouser and curiouser, cried Alice?) into >> various Siouan languages for some kind of polyglot compilation. While some >> found the intellectual challenge of translating a Victorian neologism into >> Siouan languages intriguing, others were less receptive to the request >> because of its perceived triviality and irrelevance to Native communities: >> ?It?s a more distinguished request than pet names and such, but it?s not >> the kind of translation work I would prefer to spend my time on. Why don?t >> people ask us to translate Microsoft Word or a K-12 curriculum or something >> important?? and ?I have other priorities and am unclear on the need for [a >> translation of] the particular quote from a story which has nothing in >> common with Native American culture. . . . To spend time on the translation >> of materials that have no immediate application to the language communities >> is nonsensical and, for my part, a waste of time.? One linguist shared his >> general guidelines for responding to such requests: ?One has to pick and >> choose. If it is short and culturally appropriate, I generally agree to it. >> . . . Then other requests have to be nixed, like the set of ?Spring Break? >> phrases I once was asked to translate, things like ?I am so drunk,? and >> ?Where is the bathroom??? >> >> >> >> In short, while language revitalization seeks to expand opportunities for >> the continued use of heritage languages by making them seem more applicable >> to current social conditions, there is a danger that the codes may become >> disassociated from the traditional cultures that motivate their >> revitalization in the first place. If what we care about is not only >> preserving linguistic diversity (in the sense of grammatical structures) >> but also preserving distinctive *cultural* worldviews and lifeways by >> maintaining heritage languages, then we have won the battle while losing >> the war if people are only learning and using heritage languages to >> participate in the practices of the dominant society. >> >> -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's >> DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from >> Yahoo.com >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> *********************************************************** >> Bryan James Gordon, MA >> Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology >> University of Arizona >> *********************************************************** >> >> -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's >> DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from >> Yahoo.com >> >> -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's >> DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from >> Yahoo.com >> -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's >> DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from >> Yahoo.com >> > > > > -- > *********************************************************** > Bryan James Gordon, MA > Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology > University of Arizona > *********************************************************** > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's > DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from > Yahoo.com > > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's > DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from > Yahoo.com > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Wed Apr 30 13:49:39 2014 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2014 13:49:39 +0000 Subject: citation/quotation conventions for list? In-Reply-To: <535FF4E90200008E000B43B1@hermes.wsc.edu> Message-ID: Alright, we need to fill in the blank here. I think what Mark was asking was: What is the proper scholarly format for citing postings from the Siouan list? So, if I want to quote Catherine for my dissertation, what does it look like? Would it be: ?George -- Good idea!? (Rudin, Catherine. Re: citation/quotation conventions for list?. SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu. April 29, 2014 6:52 PM.) Or what? Does it vary according to different styles and venues? We need to figure this out before we can append that message. Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Catherine Rudin Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2014 6:52 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: citation/quotation conventions for list? George -- Good idea! >>> George Wilmes 04/29/14 6:38 PM >>> Whatever decision the group arrives at, I wonder if the listserv can be programmed to automatically append something to every message, such as "To cite this posting, ?" followed by a short sample citation? It would be even better if it could be programmed to generate the actual citation that should be used, but that might be asking too much. On Tue, Apr 29, 2014 at 12:11 PM, bruce Ingham > wrote: I think that Bryan's ideas on the subject are very sensible practical and will encourage non-academics to participate. Bruce On 29 Apr 2014, at 02:53, Bryan James Gordon > wrote: Conference g?tha?di wit??be-m?zhi-t?e ??tha-m?zhi Mark, thig?ni ?da? ma?n?? ka?bth?ga?. Mark raises a very important point about non-academics' access. I agree that we should give this some detailed attention at the conference, but I want us to keep non-academic audiences, especially non-linguists in Native communities, in mind. Us academics have rules to follow, and our citation practices are interwoven with ideologies of due credit, verifiability and (!!!!) intellectual property. We enforce these rules on each other, but personally I don't believe we have any business enforcing them on Native communities (many of whom have objected to linguists' complicity in the "theft" of their languages and are fighting back along lines of intellectual property), nice as it may be to be properly cited. I know that my reasoning may sound a bit harsh to some of my fellow academics, but I hope that we can abstain from demanding citation practices from non-academics nonetheless. Bryan 2014-04-28 9:05 GMT-07:00 Mark Awakuni-Swetland >: Aloha all, I am just now catching up with this timely conversation regarding quotation/citation conventions. While I will be unable to travel to this year?s SCLConf, can I encourage you all to brainstorm some protocols for how to cite the SIOUANList? I recognize that the List is a resource for both academic and community folks. I do not want to burden or hinder non-academics from using the List and Archives. However a set of examples for how to cite List sources would be helpful to those wanting to cite sources as expected by journal and book publishers, MA & PhD committees, and other senior faculty. Several of you have already provided some approaches on this topic. Would someone be willing to spearhead a discussion on this at the conference? Many thanks for considering this request. Mark Awakuni-Swetland Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. Associate Professor Anthropology & Ethnic Studies Native American Studies University of Nebraska Oldfather Hall 841 Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 Office: 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 http://omahalanguage.unl.edu http://omahaponca.unl.edu ?Tenixa uqpatha egoN?, a biama winisi akHa. Lincoln Gem and Mineral Club, Inc. Post Office Box 5342 Lincoln, NE 68505-0342 From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Catherine Rudin Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 9:22 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: citation/quotation conventions for list? I also have cited List messages on occasion, though I think only in pretty informal contexts like conference presentations. As you point out, Saul, it is a public text, and I think it's legit to cite it the same way you would cite any online resource. Perhaps it's good for us all to remind ourselves that everything we write to the List IS not only public but permanently archived... C. >>> Bryan James Gordon 04/24/14 5:59 PM >>> Hi Saul, I've cited Siouan List messages a few times before, often because the List is the only place I can find the relevant claims or data in an easily accessible form. I certainly welcome having my own List messages cited. That being said, for academic venues we have to keep in mind that the List is not peer-reviewed in the ordinary sense, and it's hard to know how on- or off-the-record things are. I'd like to continue your conversation about the relationship between language and culture (and also take part more actively in other Siouan stuff like helping out with edited volumes), but right now I'm frantically trying to finish my comprehensive exams so I'll have to put that off until the conference. Keep up the good work! Bryan 2014-04-24 15:27 GMT-07:00 Saul Schwartz >: Dear all, I am wondering about the social conventions (stated or unstated) for citing and/or quoting material from the Siouan Listserv. On the one hand, the List is archived for anyone to view here (http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A0=SIOUAN), so it is in some sense a public text. On the other hand, there is a strong sense of community among members of the List, and I have a feeling that we sometimes forget that we?re talking to each other in what is essentially a public forum (in the sense that the public can listen in on our conversation; one has to be a member to contribute, of course). I would be interested to hear general thoughts or thoughts related to the specific case described below. For example, I am currently working on an article/dissertation chapter about how the relationship between ?language? and ?culture? is changing for many American Indians who no longer speak their heritage languages. Specifically, I am trying point out the irony that while many people support language revitalization because they believe that ?the language? is essential for ?the culture,? revitalization efforts themselves often remove heritage languages from their traditional cultural contexts in an effort to make them more relevant to learners?for example, by coming up with Siouan calques for English idioms. After discussing some examples from the literature and my own experiences working with Jimm?s Ioway, Otoe-Missouria Language Project, I wanted to mention some of the reactions on the List to the recent request to translate ?curiouser and curiouser? from Alice in Wonderland; specifically, I wanted to quote parts of Bryan?s, Jimm?s, and Willem?s responses. I am including an excerpt from the draft of the paper below to give some context, but the paragraph that includes information from the Siouan Listserv is the second to last one. Has a convention for citation and/or quotation already been established for the List? Are posts assumed to be citable and/or quotable unless otherwise stated? Do we expect someone wanting to cite and/or quote a post to contact the poster off-list to request permission before doing so? Etc.... All best, Saul Ironically, while efforts to revitalize heritage languages are often motivated by a belief that ?the language? is an essential part of ?the culture,? language revitalization itself often ends up separating codes from their traditionally associated cultural settings. David Samuels (2006), for example, discusses how conflicts between Apache traditionalists, who believe the language is too powerful for young speakers, and Christians, who believe the language is too un-Christian for their children, have narrowed the kind of language that can be taught in the community to object identification?in other words, children are learning a version of the language stripped of its indexical associations with traditional culture practices. But, as an Apache bilingual teacher wonders, if children are only learning how to use Apache to order a cheeseburger, what?s the point? (2006:551). M. Eleanor Nevins (2004) finds language classes are controversial in another Apache community because they fail to teach communicative competence, that is, social conventions for interaction that make particular codes culturally significant means of communication. Meeks reports similar developments in the Yukon, where educational routines used to teach Kaska in school settings conflict with Dene interactional conventions and language socialization ideologies. Furthermore, these educational routines ?emphasiz[e] the referential aspect of language while downplaying all other indexical dimensions, and thereby diminish their sustainability as complex systems of and for communication? (2010:126). In their research on Pueblo groups in the Southwest, Debenport (xxxx) and Whiteley (xxxx) also found conflicts between language revitalization and cultural priorities. Many Tewas and Hopis believe that outsiders should not have access to their languages and thus oppose revitalization efforts that decontextualize codes from community-internal interpersonal interactions and recontextualize them in forms that can circulate beyond the community (e.g., online, in books, in schools attended by Navajo or other non-Pueblo children, etc.). By refusing to support such language revitalization efforts, community members are saying in effect that keeping their language private is more important to them than maintaining the code. Jocelyn Ahlers provides another example of how languages can become separated from their traditionally associated cultures in her description of how moribund languages are used to perform Native identities through memorized texts, a speech style she calls ?Native Language as Identity Marker? (2006:62). She concludes that ?this speech style adds to the body of evidence that language use is not indexical with cultural . . . identity, but rather performative of it? (2006:72). By this I understand her to mean that, unlike other kinds of code-switching, in this case a speaker sends a message about their identity by their code choice alone?what they are saying in the code refers to nothing outside itself (denotatively, indexically, or otherwise) because it is ?code-switching, by a nonfluent speaker, to a noncomprehending audience? (2006:69). In the case of these memorized speeches, a code performs an identity without referring to anything cultural. Whiteley (2003:715) offers a similar interpretation of speeches by younger generations at Haida memorial potlatches, and the Dauenhauers note an analogous development in written Tlingit when those who have no or little knowledge of the language ?use literacy for its decorative and symbolic effect or impression: for example, ?Merry Christmas? in Tlingit on corporate windows or Christmas cards? (1998:89). To draw from my own experience, the Ioway, Otoe-Missouria Language Project (IOMLP) makes a special effort to embed language in culturally significant contexts that are also applicable to modern day life. For example, the IOMLP designed and printed a tee shirt that includes a traditional floral design, a diagram representing the shared histories of the Iowa, Otoe-Missouria, and closely related Winnebago peoples (all labeled by their Chiwere endo- or exo-nyms), an image of an elder and a child wearing traditional ceremonial dance clothes, and a sentence in Chiwere that translates, ?The language honors our elders and teaches our children.? Similarly, the IOMLP designed mugs that include the Chiwere phrase for ?I love my coffee? with the image of an Oneota-style ceramic vessel superimposed over a medicine wheel. While the IOMLP makes a special effort to embed language in culturally rich contexts, the Project is all too familiar with the opposite possibility: that traditional language can be used in contexts far removed from traditional cultural practices and values. The director of the Project often receives requests to calque English idioms, for example, ?Go green!? (for a tribal environmental awareness program) or ?I [heart icon] boobies!? (for breast cancer awareness bracelets). He has also been asked to provide Chiwere equivalents for terms from the video game Halo. These requests are met with ambivalence since they have no connection to traditional cultural practices or can even seem antithetical to them. For example, the request for ?I [heart icon] boobies!? provoked a lesson on traditional attitudes toward body parts, body functions, and sexuality. And when I explained to the IOMLP what Halo is (a first-person shooter, i.e., rather violent, video game), the director expressed reservations that Chiwere language be associated with it at all. In some cases, then, indigenous languages can be used not just for cultural practices that are seen as untraditional (ordering a cheeseburger) but also anti-traditional (ones that promote dominant society attitudes toward sex, violence, etc.). This phenomenon is not limited to Chiwere, however, and many people involved in Siouan language documentation and revitalization receive similar requests. John Koontz, for example, received so many requests to translate stock English phrases as well as names for children and pets into Omaha-Ponca that he posted his general response to such questions on the FAQ section of his website. Once, he was even asked (presumably as a joke) for a Native American name for an RV; he responded in kind with Hotanke, an Anglicized spelling of the Dakotan word for ?Winnebago? (Winnebago is a popular brand of RV in the United States, much to the chagrin of the Winnebago Indians). Recently, a request appeared on the Siouan Listserv to translate a line from Alice in Wonderland (?curiouser and curiouser, cried Alice?) into various Siouan languages for some kind of polyglot compilation. While some found the intellectual challenge of translating a Victorian neologism into Siouan languages intriguing, others were less receptive to the request because of its perceived triviality and irrelevance to Native communities: ?It?s a more distinguished request than pet names and such, but it?s not the kind of translation work I would prefer to spend my time on. Why don?t people ask us to translate Microsoft Word or a K-12 curriculum or something important?? and ?I have other priorities and am unclear on the need for [a translation of] the particular quote from a story which has nothing in common with Native American culture. . . . To spend time on the translation of materials that have no immediate application to the language communities is nonsensical and, for my part, a waste of time.? One linguist shared his general guidelines for responding to such requests: ?One has to pick and choose. If it is short and culturally appropriate, I generally agree to it. . . . Then other requests have to be nixed, like the set of ?Spring Break? phrases I once was asked to translate, things like ?I am so drunk,? and ?Where is the bathroom??? In short, while language revitalization seeks to expand opportunities for the continued use of heritage languages by making them seem more applicable to current social conditions, there is a danger that the codes may become disassociated from the traditional cultures that motivate their revitalization in the first place. If what we care about is not only preserving linguistic diversity (in the sense of grammatical structures) but also preserving distinctive cultural worldviews and lifeways by maintaining heritage languages, then we have won the battle while losing the war if people are only learning and using heritage languages to participate in the practices of the dominant society. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- *********************************************************** Bryan James Gordon, MA Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology University of Arizona *********************************************************** -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- *********************************************************** Bryan James Gordon, MA Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology University of Arizona *********************************************************** -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mawakuni-swetland2 at UNL.EDU Wed Apr 30 14:41:11 2014 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at UNL.EDU (Mark Awakuni-Swetland) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2014 14:41:11 +0000 Subject: citation/quotation conventions for list? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Aho WagaqthoN, That is what I was looking for but the chemo-brain had kept me for formulating the question properly. UdoN, ebthegoN. WagoNze Uthixide From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 8:50 AM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: citation/quotation conventions for list? Alright, we need to fill in the blank here. I think what Mark was asking was: What is the proper scholarly format for citing postings from the Siouan list? So, if I want to quote Catherine for my dissertation, what does it look like? Would it be: ?George -- Good idea!? (Rudin, Catherine. Re: citation/quotation conventions for list?. SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu. April 29, 2014 6:52 PM.) Or what? Does it vary according to different styles and venues? We need to figure this out before we can append that message. Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Catherine Rudin Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2014 6:52 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: citation/quotation conventions for list? George -- Good idea! >>> George Wilmes 04/29/14 6:38 PM >>> Whatever decision the group arrives at, I wonder if the listserv can be programmed to automatically append something to every message, such as "To cite this posting, ?" followed by a short sample citation? It would be even better if it could be programmed to generate the actual citation that should be used, but that might be asking too much. On Tue, Apr 29, 2014 at 12:11 PM, bruce Ingham > wrote: I think that Bryan's ideas on the subject are very sensible practical and will encourage non-academics to participate. Bruce On 29 Apr 2014, at 02:53, Bryan James Gordon > wrote: Conference g?tha?di wit??be-m?zhi-t?e ??tha-m?zhi Mark, thig?ni ?da? ma?n?? ka?bth?ga?. Mark raises a very important point about non-academics' access. I agree that we should give this some detailed attention at the conference, but I want us to keep non-academic audiences, especially non-linguists in Native communities, in mind. Us academics have rules to follow, and our citation practices are interwoven with ideologies of due credit, verifiability and (!!!!) intellectual property. We enforce these rules on each other, but personally I don't believe we have any business enforcing them on Native communities (many of whom have objected to linguists' complicity in the "theft" of their languages and are fighting back along lines of intellectual property), nice as it may be to be properly cited. I know that my reasoning may sound a bit harsh to some of my fellow academics, but I hope that we can abstain from demanding citation practices from non-academics nonetheless. Bryan 2014-04-28 9:05 GMT-07:00 Mark Awakuni-Swetland >: Aloha all, I am just now catching up with this timely conversation regarding quotation/citation conventions. While I will be unable to travel to this year?s SCLConf, can I encourage you all to brainstorm some protocols for how to cite the SIOUANList? I recognize that the List is a resource for both academic and community folks. I do not want to burden or hinder non-academics from using the List and Archives. However a set of examples for how to cite List sources would be helpful to those wanting to cite sources as expected by journal and book publishers, MA & PhD committees, and other senior faculty. Several of you have already provided some approaches on this topic. Would someone be willing to spearhead a discussion on this at the conference? Many thanks for considering this request. Mark Awakuni-Swetland Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. Associate Professor Anthropology & Ethnic Studies Native American Studies University of Nebraska Oldfather Hall 841 Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 Office: 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 http://omahalanguage.unl.edu http://omahaponca.unl.edu ?Tenixa uqpatha egoN?, a biama winisi akHa. Lincoln Gem and Mineral Club, Inc. Post Office Box 5342 Lincoln, NE 68505-0342 From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Catherine Rudin Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 9:22 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: citation/quotation conventions for list? I also have cited List messages on occasion, though I think only in pretty informal contexts like conference presentations. As you point out, Saul, it is a public text, and I think it's legit to cite it the same way you would cite any online resource. Perhaps it's good for us all to remind ourselves that everything we write to the List IS not only public but permanently archived... C. >>> Bryan James Gordon 04/24/14 5:59 PM >>> Hi Saul, I've cited Siouan List messages a few times before, often because the List is the only place I can find the relevant claims or data in an easily accessible form. I certainly welcome having my own List messages cited. That being said, for academic venues we have to keep in mind that the List is not peer-reviewed in the ordinary sense, and it's hard to know how on- or off-the-record things are. I'd like to continue your conversation about the relationship between language and culture (and also take part more actively in other Siouan stuff like helping out with edited volumes), but right now I'm frantically trying to finish my comprehensive exams so I'll have to put that off until the conference. Keep up the good work! Bryan 2014-04-24 15:27 GMT-07:00 Saul Schwartz >: Dear all, I am wondering about the social conventions (stated or unstated) for citing and/or quoting material from the Siouan Listserv. On the one hand, the List is archived for anyone to view here (http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A0=SIOUAN), so it is in some sense a public text. On the other hand, there is a strong sense of community among members of the List, and I have a feeling that we sometimes forget that we?re talking to each other in what is essentially a public forum (in the sense that the public can listen in on our conversation; one has to be a member to contribute, of course). I would be interested to hear general thoughts or thoughts related to the specific case described below. For example, I am currently working on an article/dissertation chapter about how the relationship between ?language? and ?culture? is changing for many American Indians who no longer speak their heritage languages. Specifically, I am trying point out the irony that while many people support language revitalization because they believe that ?the language? is essential for ?the culture,? revitalization efforts themselves often remove heritage languages from their traditional cultural contexts in an effort to make them more relevant to learners?for example, by coming up with Siouan calques for English idioms. After discussing some examples from the literature and my own experiences working with Jimm?s Ioway, Otoe-Missouria Language Project, I wanted to mention some of the reactions on the List to the recent request to translate ?curiouser and curiouser? from Alice in Wonderland; specifically, I wanted to quote parts of Bryan?s, Jimm?s, and Willem?s responses. I am including an excerpt from the draft of the paper below to give some context, but the paragraph that includes information from the Siouan Listserv is the second to last one. Has a convention for citation and/or quotation already been established for the List? Are posts assumed to be citable and/or quotable unless otherwise stated? Do we expect someone wanting to cite and/or quote a post to contact the poster off-list to request permission before doing so? Etc.... All best, Saul Ironically, while efforts to revitalize heritage languages are often motivated by a belief that ?the language? is an essential part of ?the culture,? language revitalization itself often ends up separating codes from their traditionally associated cultural settings. David Samuels (2006), for example, discusses how conflicts between Apache traditionalists, who believe the language is too powerful for young speakers, and Christians, who believe the language is too un-Christian for their children, have narrowed the kind of language that can be taught in the community to object identification?in other words, children are learning a version of the language stripped of its indexical associations with traditional culture practices. But, as an Apache bilingual teacher wonders, if children are only learning how to use Apache to order a cheeseburger, what?s the point? (2006:551). M. Eleanor Nevins (2004) finds language classes are controversial in another Apache community because they fail to teach communicative competence, that is, social conventions for interaction that make particular codes culturally significant means of communication. Meeks reports similar developments in the Yukon, where educational routines used to teach Kaska in school settings conflict with Dene interactional conventions and language socialization ideologies. Furthermore, these educational routines ?emphasiz[e] the referential aspect of language while downplaying all other indexical dimensions, and thereby diminish their sustainability as complex systems of and for communication? (2010:126). In their research on Pueblo groups in the Southwest, Debenport (xxxx) and Whiteley (xxxx) also found conflicts between language revitalization and cultural priorities. Many Tewas and Hopis believe that outsiders should not have access to their languages and thus oppose revitalization efforts that decontextualize codes from community-internal interpersonal interactions and recontextualize them in forms that can circulate beyond the community (e.g., online, in books, in schools attended by Navajo or other non-Pueblo children, etc.). By refusing to support such language revitalization efforts, community members are saying in effect that keeping their language private is more important to them than maintaining the code. Jocelyn Ahlers provides another example of how languages can become separated from their traditionally associated cultures in her description of how moribund languages are used to perform Native identities through memorized texts, a speech style she calls ?Native Language as Identity Marker? (2006:62). She concludes that ?this speech style adds to the body of evidence that language use is not indexical with cultural . . . identity, but rather performative of it? (2006:72). By this I understand her to mean that, unlike other kinds of code-switching, in this case a speaker sends a message about their identity by their code choice alone?what they are saying in the code refers to nothing outside itself (denotatively, indexically, or otherwise) because it is ?code-switching, by a nonfluent speaker, to a noncomprehending audience? (2006:69). In the case of these memorized speeches, a code performs an identity without referring to anything cultural. Whiteley (2003:715) offers a similar interpretation of speeches by younger generations at Haida memorial potlatches, and the Dauenhauers note an analogous development in written Tlingit when those who have no or little knowledge of the language ?use literacy for its decorative and symbolic effect or impression: for example, ?Merry Christmas? in Tlingit on corporate windows or Christmas cards? (1998:89). To draw from my own experience, the Ioway, Otoe-Missouria Language Project (IOMLP) makes a special effort to embed language in culturally significant contexts that are also applicable to modern day life. For example, the IOMLP designed and printed a tee shirt that includes a traditional floral design, a diagram representing the shared histories of the Iowa, Otoe-Missouria, and closely related Winnebago peoples (all labeled by their Chiwere endo- or exo-nyms), an image of an elder and a child wearing traditional ceremonial dance clothes, and a sentence in Chiwere that translates, ?The language honors our elders and teaches our children.? Similarly, the IOMLP designed mugs that include the Chiwere phrase for ?I love my coffee? with the image of an Oneota-style ceramic vessel superimposed over a medicine wheel. While the IOMLP makes a special effort to embed language in culturally rich contexts, the Project is all too familiar with the opposite possibility: that traditional language can be used in contexts far removed from traditional cultural practices and values. The director of the Project often receives requests to calque English idioms, for example, ?Go green!? (for a tribal environmental awareness program) or ?I [heart icon] boobies!? (for breast cancer awareness bracelets). He has also been asked to provide Chiwere equivalents for terms from the video game Halo. These requests are met with ambivalence since they have no connection to traditional cultural practices or can even seem antithetical to them. For example, the request for ?I [heart icon] boobies!? provoked a lesson on traditional attitudes toward body parts, body functions, and sexuality. And when I explained to the IOMLP what Halo is (a first-person shooter, i.e., rather violent, video game), the director expressed reservations that Chiwere language be associated with it at all. In some cases, then, indigenous languages can be used not just for cultural practices that are seen as untraditional (ordering a cheeseburger) but also anti-traditional (ones that promote dominant society attitudes toward sex, violence, etc.). This phenomenon is not limited to Chiwere, however, and many people involved in Siouan language documentation and revitalization receive similar requests. John Koontz, for example, received so many requests to translate stock English phrases as well as names for children and pets into Omaha-Ponca that he posted his general response to such questions on the FAQ section of his website. Once, he was even asked (presumably as a joke) for a Native American name for an RV; he responded in kind with Hotanke, an Anglicized spelling of the Dakotan word for ?Winnebago? (Winnebago is a popular brand of RV in the United States, much to the chagrin of the Winnebago Indians). Recently, a request appeared on the Siouan Listserv to translate a line from Alice in Wonderland (?curiouser and curiouser, cried Alice?) into various Siouan languages for some kind of polyglot compilation. While some found the intellectual challenge of translating a Victorian neologism into Siouan languages intriguing, others were less receptive to the request because of its perceived triviality and irrelevance to Native communities: ?It?s a more distinguished request than pet names and such, but it?s not the kind of translation work I would prefer to spend my time on. Why don?t people ask us to translate Microsoft Word or a K-12 curriculum or something important?? and ?I have other priorities and am unclear on the need for [a translation of] the particular quote from a story which has nothing in common with Native American culture. . . . To spend time on the translation of materials that have no immediate application to the language communities is nonsensical and, for my part, a waste of time.? One linguist shared his general guidelines for responding to such requests: ?One has to pick and choose. If it is short and culturally appropriate, I generally agree to it. . . . Then other requests have to be nixed, like the set of ?Spring Break? phrases I once was asked to translate, things like ?I am so drunk,? and ?Where is the bathroom??? In short, while language revitalization seeks to expand opportunities for the continued use of heritage languages by making them seem more applicable to current social conditions, there is a danger that the codes may become disassociated from the traditional cultures that motivate their revitalization in the first place. If what we care about is not only preserving linguistic diversity (in the sense of grammatical structures) but also preserving distinctive cultural worldviews and lifeways by maintaining heritage languages, then we have won the battle while losing the war if people are only learning and using heritage languages to participate in the practices of the dominant society. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- *********************************************************** Bryan James Gordon, MA Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology University of Arizona *********************************************************** -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- *********************************************************** Bryan James Gordon, MA Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology University of Arizona *********************************************************** -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. 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