From stanleyl at LUTHER.EDU  Mon Aug  4 00:50:21 2014
From: stanleyl at LUTHER.EDU (Lori Stanley)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2014 19:50:21 -0500
Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga
In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E436C33FE5D6AA@Server6-EX.omtribe.net>
Message-ID: <SUN.3.AUG.2014.195021.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Sky and Jimm,
I've searched high and low, found things I forgot I had, but haven't
located the Hamilton journal.  I was certain I had a copy, but either I
imagined it (maybe just got it confused with the Irvin journal?) or it got
separated from all my other I-O material.  I'm stumped.

The reference I have to Hamilton's journal is a note by Leslie White in the
published journals of Lewis Henry Morgan (*Lewis Henry Morgan: The Indian
Journals, 1859-62*, Leslie A. White, ed., University of Michigan Press,
1959).  Note 46 on page 251 reads as follows:

*Among the Morgan archives in the University of Rochester Library there is
a manuscript of some thirty pages, “Extracts from the Unpublished Journals
of Rev. William Hamilton, a Missionary of the Presbyterian Board for Twenty
Years among the Iowas and Sacs of Kansas and the Omahas of Nebraska, now
resident in Bellevue.” The extracts are from the years 1848-52. They
contain considerable ethnographic data. They also report verbatim
conversations between Rev. Hamilton and Indians in which the former tries
to show the Indians how wrong—not to say ridiculous—their religious beliefs
are, and that the religion of the Presbyterians is the only true faith.*


According to the University of Rochester library website the Hamilton
manuscript is in the collection titled Lewis Henry Morgan Papers
<https://www.lib.rochester.edu/index.cfm?page=998>,  Box 23, Folder 94.  So
far I haven't found any evidence that the journal has been published in its
entirety.


If you plan to try to get a copy from the U of R library, let me know.  If
not, I might contact them about it myself.


Sorry I couldn't come up with it!


Lori



On Fri, Jul 25, 2014 at 8:27 AM, Campbell, Sky <sky at omtribe.org> wrote:

> Wow, thank you!  I've been over Hamilton and Irvin's material up one side
> and down the other approximately 345,681,130 times and each time I do, I
> learn and understand more.  We've already transcribed their books (makes it
> SUPER easy to do a quick search for something!) and are in the process of
> transliterating them.  They paid so much attention to detail in those books
> that I'm hoping that his journal is the same way and that there is some
> good language information floating around in there.
>
>
>
> I'll attach a PDF of the extracts from Hamilton's journal with the mention
> of "Caramonya".  It is on the second page (page 372) under the section of
> "Superstition of the Indians - Otter Dance".  It is a neat little blurb
> about how Hamilton shot a "weasel" and that Caramonya wished he hadn't shot
> it because if he hadn't, he could have taken the skin and made a shirt that
> would make him impervious to bullets.  He said if he made the shirt of one
> that had been shot, he'd be killed and that it needed to be choked to death
> instead.
>
>
>
> What I hope for is more names mentioned (Hopefully with
> translations...Merrill has quite a few names in his diary but not
> translations.  I've been able to figure most of them out but there are a
> few that still throw me for a loop) and anything else to do with language.
> In the autobiography I sent last night, Hamilton mentions how the
> Missourias speak in a peculiar way because they were still getting used to
> Otoe and he also gave his own interpretation for "Wakąnda".  So it is those
> kinds of things that I'm after.
>
>
>
> Again, thank you!
>
>
>
> *Sky Campbell*
>
> Language Director
>
> Otoe-Missouria Tribe
>
> (580) 723-4466, ext. 111
>
> sky at omtribe.org
>
>
>
> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of
> *Lori Stanley
> *Sent:* Friday, July 25, 2014 12:49 AM
>
> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> *Subject:* Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga
> *Importance:* Low
>
>
>
> Sky,
>
> After I sent the previous email it occurred to me that the 1885
> autobiography was probably not what you were looking for, but I wasn't able
> to check the document for a reference to "Caramonya" since I don't have
> access to my files right now.  You cleared up that question with your last
> email.
>
> An online search has reminded me that Hamilton's original journal is in
> the Lewis Henry Morgan archives, and I'm pretty sure I have a copy of it.
> In fact, the line about "Caramonya," the "old Indian who often visits us,"
> sounds very familiar.  I'll check on this when I get back to Decorah in a
> few days.
>
> Lori
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 9:25 PM, Jimm G. GoodTracks <jgoodtracks at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Thanks Sky!  Great read that fills in and colors some of the early day
> life and scenes in the life of the people.
>
>
>
> *From:* Sky Campbell <sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM>
>
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 24, 2014 7:06 PM
>
> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga
>
>
>
> Thanks for the idea but unfortunately I already have that.  It isn't his
> journal but instead Hamilton was asked to write an autobiography.  This
> autobiography is great reading and is in the form of a letter but
> unfortunately it isn't his journal :(.
>
>
>
> I'll attach it to this email just in case someone is interested.  Jimm, I
> believe you've seen this before but if not, happy reading! :)
>
>
>
> Sky
>
>
>
> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of
> *Lori Stanley
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 24, 2014 3:12 PM
> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> *Subject:* Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga
>
>
>
> Sky,
> Here is the reference for the published version of Hamilton's journal:
>
> Hamilton, William
>
> 1885    Autobiography of Reverend William Hamilton.  *Transactions and
> Reports of the Nebraska State Historical Society* 1:60-75.
>
>
>
> I'm sure I have a copy and could send you a PDF, but I'm out of town for a
> few days.  Let me know if you get hold of it.  If not, I'll send it when I
> get back.
>
>
>
> Lori
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 2:19 PM, Campbell, Sky <sky at omtribe.org> wrote:
>
> Those names are listed with "manyi" in other sources.  For example, Catlin
> has "Neu-mon-ya" and "Wash-ka-mon-ya" where that "manyi" can (usually)
> refer to "walk" or "always".  Ioway treaties has spellings like
> "Washcommanee" and "Ne-o-mon-ni".  What I'm thinking is that perhaps the
> "monga" came from looking a poor copies of old documents and that those "g"
> characters are most likely "y" characters.  These characters are
> handwritten and it only takes one little movement to "close up" a "y" at
> the top and make it look like a "g".
>
>
>
> I've seen "Niyu Manyi" translated as walking rain, moving rain, and always
> raining.  I tend to lean towards that last one.
>
>
>
> The name "Washka Manyi" as been translated as great walker, great marcher,
> and fast dancer so that one is a little tougher.  I can see how "washka"
> could maybe be a mash-up of "washi" (dance) and "kątha" (fast).  But when I
> decided to hit up a Ponca friend about his name "Washka" (that's his legal
> name, not just his "Indian name"), I found out the full form of his name is
> "Washka Mathi" which he translated as "Stands Strong."  I know that "mathi"
> in Ponca/Omaha is a cognate to the Otoe-Ioway "manyi" and also that Otoes
> and Ioways had the form "mathi" a long time ago.  So that got me to
> thinking that perhaps this Ioway individual might have roughly the same
> name as my Ponca friend (cognate forms notwithstanding).  The only trouble
> with that theory is that I've never seen a term "washka" to mean "strong"
> like it does in Ponca.  Dorsey shows the Jiwere cognate to "washka" as
> "brixe" (which is the term I am familiar with).  So is this one of those
> instances where Otoe-Ioway had more in common with Dhegiha almost 200 years
> ago and "washka" was used to mean "strong" (or a similiar idea) but no
> longer does?  It would seem likely since some of those translations for
> that name have the word "great" in them along with walker or marcher.
> Strong walker/strong marcher perhaps?  But without more information, this
> is just yet another thing for me to keep in the back of my mind until I
> find that bit of information that helps clear it up.  May that day come
> soon!
>
>
>
> *Sky Campbell*
>
> Language Director
>
> Otoe-Missouria Tribe
>
> (580) 723-4466, ext. 111
>
> sky at omtribe.org
>
>
>
> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of
> *Rory Larson
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 23, 2014 1:15 PM
> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> *Subject:* Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga
>
>
>
> Sky, do we know what “monga” means in the other names, Washkamonga and
> Neumonga?
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Rory
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> <SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>] *On Behalf Of *Campbell, Sky
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 23, 2014 9:28 AM
> *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU
> *Subject:* Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga
>
>
>
> Greg was gracious enough to let me see the copies he was drawing from and
> sure enough, it looks like "monga" in the name.  But what I found
> interesting in that document was other familiar names...Washkamonga and
> Neumonga which we've seen elsewhere with the "monga" portion spelled with
> an "ny" instead of an "ng".  I also looked at the 1842 Ioway census and
> found "Caromonga" but instead it was spelled "Caramonya".  I did a quick
> Google search for "Caramonya" and got a couple hits on some books that had
> excerpts from Hamilton's journal.  He describes "Caramonya" as "an old
> Indian who often visits us."  Unfortunately he doesn't translate the name.
> My first reaction was to think that perhaps Hamilton might be using his own
> orthography that he used in his books but the rest of the spelling doesn't
> bear that out.  I'd love to see more of Hamilton's journal to see if there
> are any clues in there.  Anyone know where I could get a hold of such a
> thing?
>
>
>
> So it looks like that ending may actually be "manyi" (but perhaps not for
> the "ng/ny swap" that I suggested but maybe just a handwriting issue).  And
> it looks like both versions were written by the same person (there is the
> same flourish on the capital "C" in both versions of the name).
>
>
>
> Council meeting image:
>
> [image: Caromonga.jpg]
>
>
>
> Ioway census image:
>
> [image: Caramonya.jpg]
>
>
>
> So if it is "Cara-" instead of "Caro-", then that can open up more
> possibilities perhaps.  But I'm still only coming up with ketą, kera and
> giro as my top suggestions for now.
>
>
>
> *Sky Campbell*
>
> Language Director
>
> Otoe-Missouria Tribe
>
> (580) 723-4466, ext. 111
>
> sky at omtribe.org
>
>
>
> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> <SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>] *On Behalf Of *Jimm G. GoodTracks
> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 22, 2014 9:35 PM
> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> *Subject:* [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga
> *Importance:* Low
>
>
>
> Well, going on what Jill says, the closet thing I can find is:  *šedánaŋe;
> šedánaŋa**  adv/prn.  *that distant curvilinear object yonder; that
> distant land in sight.  However, I'm not comfortable that it is a good
> fit for "Carominga."  I don't know if the original notation was from a
> French or English document, and as such, cannot know to consider the
> phonetic value of the "C."
>
>
>
> But going with the possibility of it being "Ké" as in "Kétan" (turtle), we
> have:
>
> *kétan; ketúnha;* keton^a (SKN); qetan (DOR)*  n.  *turtle.   *kétan xúha**
> n.  *turtle shell.   *Kétan* wáñi pí añáñe ke,  It is said that *turtle*
> meat is good.
>
>      *kégrédheiñe; kégrédheiŋe*      spotted (or) sand turtle
>
>      *kehtonha* (SKN)                       snapping turtle; snapper
>
>      *kémarax^ín; kemárax^in* (LWR)            snapping turtle
>
>      *ké márax^in* “wrinkled turtle” mud turtle
>
>      *ketánna* (LWR)                         snapping turtle; snapper
>
>
>
>         But you see, the best contender is for:
>
> *            kéra**  adj.  *clear (*sky*).   *Clear Day;* *Clear Sky
> Appears*  (*a personal Buffalo Clan name*)*  n.  *Kéra Tán^in; K^éra Tán^i
> n.  ***SEE*: *githóje; clear.*
>
>
>
> Also, thinking about the breakup of syllables as Justin suggest, there
> could be a connect with:
>
>             *rominjí**  n.  *island.   *Rominjí^iŋe(mi); Romínchiŋe;
> Irómiŋhšji; Jérominje;* Romijiiŋemi (DOR); rúmitsí (MAX)  (*a personal
> Buffalo Clan and Beaver Clan name*)  Little Island.   *Romihingu ~
> Romihiŋu* (SKN)*;* Romijiiŋemi (DOR)  (*a personal Pigeon Clan name*)
> Island.
>
>  And there was maybe the "g" is really a "j" which gives only one unlikely
> possibility:
>
>  *mánje* (?)(LWR)*; masjé**  adj/v.i.  *hot, warm (*weather*).
>
> With the above, one could squeeze out a "Turtle Island," but, this
> possibility is not convincing to me.
>
>
>
> *SO THEN, *in appreciation to everyone's input, I have arrived full
> circle to my original conjecture that the name that most likely fits the
> documented transcription is:
>
>
>
> *KéraMánge* (Clearing Day All About~ Prevailing).  In this case, the
> "mánge" (sitting) is used in the sense of a positional verb, saying that
> the clearing of the sky, was extensive over a wide area such might be view
> on the breathe of the open plains.  Further, such a rendering would be
> consistant to similar clan names.
>
>
>
> I suggest one possibilty for Grey in working with his narrative is to
> include with the composed name, the original transcription, such as, "
> *KéraMánge* (Clearing Day All About) [Carminga (Document Source
> citations)].   Unless, new evidence appears, or further information, this
> is the best that can be made of that name.
>
>
>
> Hánhe Pi, Good Night, Buenas Noches!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Greer, Jill <Greer-J at MSSU.EDU>
>
> *Sent:* Saturday, July 19, 2014 6:22 PM
>
> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
>
> *Subject:* Re: Carominga
>
>
>
> Justin and Sky -
>
> You guys with your programming talents-  impressive!
>
>
>
> Just one question for Jimm and Greg -  if the original person who
> transcribed the name was French (or a mixed blood literate in French-  as
> was common around St. Joseph),  the first syllabie "Ca" could even be /Sa/
>  or /se/  rather than Key, n'est pas?   I hate to muddy the waters, but all
> it takes is one person to miss the cedilla and we've switched the sound
> totally.  These old names are so slippery, but fascinating!
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Jill
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jul 18, 2014, at 8:17 PM, "Mcbride, Justin" <
> jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU>
>
>  wrote:
>
>
>
> When you showed me that program last year, Sky, I remember thinking, "Now,
> THIS is awesome!" As a guy who, for years, was asked questions like,
> "What's my Granddad's name mean?" on a weekly basis, only to be handed a
> string of indecipherable 'ah's, 'eh's, and hyphens with a few consonants
> mixed in for good measure, I would have relished the opportunity to see a
> list the possible permutations presented at once. Now, if you could just
> build in some phonotactic constraint logic and SQL interaction with some
> sort of lexical database to provide suggestions--you know, the easy
> stuff--you'd have the proverbial better mousetrap!  :)  Ah, it's fun to
> dream!
>
>
>
> By the way, the name Kke Leze was the name of one of the last living male
> L1 Ks speakers. -jtm
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 7:34 PM, Sky Campbell <sky at legendreaders.com>
> wrote:
>
> Justin,
>
>
>
> I thought of that too (and even thought of turtle LOL...ke for ketą) but
> nothing came to mind for the rest.  We have a precedent for this which is a
> name listed as "Ke Greðe" (Prairie Turtle/Spotted Turtle).  I seem to
> remember one or two more but can't think of them off the top of my head.
>
>
>
> And thanks for pointing out the "g" possibly being the "j" sound.  That is
> usually one of the first things I consider but it totally slipped my mind.
> Man, I really, REALLY need to finish my "character/morpheme swap" program
> for situations like this.
>
>
>
> Sky
>
>
>
> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of
> *Mcbride, Justin
> *Sent:* Friday, July 18, 2014 5:46 PM
> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> *Subject:* Re: Carominga
>
>
>
> Howdy, Jimm,
>
>
>
> I wonder about the division of syllables into Caro and Monga. Is it
> possible that it could be Ca Romonga? I ask becasue, if it were a Kaw name,
> I'd think it might have something to do with kke, 'turtle,' which I'm
> pretty sure I've seen spelled as Ca in names before. I would also look at
> the r as representing either Ks y or l, and -ga part at the end (if it's
> not been switched, as Sky suggests, which I think is probable) as possibly
> representing like the Ks syllable j^e, which seems to happen fairly
> frequently in the names I've looked at. In short, I would expect something
> like kke yaNmaNj^e, which doesn't ring any bells at all in Ks. Now, I don't
> know much at all about IOM, lexically or phonologically--maybe this makes
> even less sense in IOM--but thought I just might throw that out there as
> food for thought.
>
>
>
> All the best,
>
> -Justin
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Sky Campbell <sky at legendreaders.com>
> wrote:
>
> The "caro" portion has me thinking of a few possibilities:
>
>
>
> kera (as you pointed out)
>
> giro (happy)
>
>
>
> The "monga" has me thinking of:
>
>
>
> mange (lying down)
>
> mange (chest)
>
> womanke (easy) <-- perhaps unlikely
>
> mąnka (medicine) <-- seems the most unlikely but I thought I'd throw it in
> there
>
>
>
> Last is a "theory" that I have that perhaps somehow, some way, "monga"
> might be a form of "manyi/manye".  Considering how many examples of "ng"
> and "ny" being swapped out (sunge/sunye, -inge/-inye, etc.), I wonder if
> perhaps it might be a version of "manyi".  Especially since that word is
> used in so many names already and your friend noted that it appears in
> other names as well.  This is just speculation, of course.  Speaking of
> which, if they could provide examples of other names that use "monga", it
> might help us figure it out.
>
>
>
> Sky
>
>
>
> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of
> *Jimm G. GoodTracks
> *Sent:* Friday, July 18, 2014 9:25 AM
> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> *Subject:* Fw: Carominga
>
>
>
> Does anyone have some thoughts to decipher the name: "Caromonga."  The
> last part appears to be "mange" (be in sitting position).  The first could
> be "kera" (cleared sky).
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Greg Olson <caxelolson at gmail.com>
>
> *Sent:* Friday, July 11, 2014 4:48 PM
>
> *To:* Jimm GoodTracks <jgoodtracks at gmail.com>
>
> *Subject:* Carominga
>
>
>
> Jimm, while proofing my manuscript, I came across an Ioway name I had
> overlooked. Caromonga. He is mentioned insome council   meetings during the
> 1840s. I notice the end of the name- monga -appears in other names too.
>
>
>
> Greg
>
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> --
> Lori A. Stanley
> Professor of Anthropology
> Luther College
> 700 College Drive
> Decorah, Iowa 52101
> 563-387-1283
>
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>
> --
> Lori A. Stanley
> Professor of Anthropology
> Luther College
> 700 College Drive
> Decorah, Iowa 52101
> 563-387-1283
>
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-- 
Lori A. Stanley
Professor of Anthropology
Luther College
700 College Drive
Decorah, Iowa 52101
563-387-1283

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From sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM  Mon Aug  4 04:32:30 2014
From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM (Sky Campbell)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2014 23:32:30 -0500
Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga
In-Reply-To: <CAKQkspZeBLxf1r22fBDnO4ZreL=r2sG_E7Y9Oz9dYHM-zFk=bg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.3.AUG.2014.233230.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Sounds good!  I'll try checking in on it tomorrow and I'll let you know what I find :).

 

Sky

 

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Lori Stanley
Sent: Sunday, August 3, 2014 7:50 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga

 

Sky and Jimm,

I've searched high and low, found things I forgot I had, but haven't located the Hamilton journal.  I was certain I had a copy, but either I imagined it (maybe just got it confused with the Irvin journal?) or it got separated from all my other I-O material.  I'm stumped.

The reference I have to Hamilton's journal is a note by Leslie White in the published journals of Lewis Henry Morgan (Lewis Henry Morgan: The Indian Journals, 1859-62, Leslie A. White, ed., University of Michigan Press, 1959).  Note 46 on page 251 reads as follows:

 

Among the Morgan archives in the University of Rochester Library there is a manuscript of some thirty pages, “Extracts from the Unpublished Journals of Rev. William Hamilton, a Missionary of the Presbyterian Board for Twenty Years among the Iowas and Sacs of Kansas and the Omahas of Nebraska, now resident in Bellevue.” The extracts are from the years 1848-52. They contain considerable ethnographic data. They also report verbatim conversations between Rev. Hamilton and Indians in which the former tries to show the Indians how wrong—not to say ridiculous—their religious beliefs are, and that the religion of the Presbyterians is the only true faith.

 

According to the University of Rochester library website the Hamilton manuscript is in the collection titled Lewis Henry Morgan Papers <https://www.lib.rochester.edu/index.cfm?page=998> ,  Box 23, Folder 94.  So far I haven't found any evidence that the journal has been published in its entirety.

 

If you plan to try to get a copy from the U of R library, let me know.  If not, I might contact them about it myself.

 

Sorry I couldn't come up with it!

 

Lori

 

 

On Fri, Jul 25, 2014 at 8:27 AM, Campbell, Sky <sky at omtribe.org> wrote:

Wow, thank you!  I've been over Hamilton and Irvin's material up one side and down the other approximately 345,681,130 times and each time I do, I learn and understand more.  We've already transcribed their books (makes it SUPER easy to do a quick search for something!) and are in the process of transliterating them.  They paid so much attention to detail in those books that I'm hoping that his journal is the same way and that there is some good language information floating around in there.

 

I'll attach a PDF of the extracts from Hamilton's journal with the mention of "Caramonya".  It is on the second page (page 372) under the section of "Superstition of the Indians - Otter Dance".  It is a neat little blurb about how Hamilton shot a "weasel" and that Caramonya wished he hadn't shot it because if he hadn't, he could have taken the skin and made a shirt that would make him impervious to bullets.  He said if he made the shirt of one that had been shot, he'd be killed and that it needed to be choked to death instead.

 

What I hope for is more names mentioned (Hopefully with translations...Merrill has quite a few names in his diary but not translations.  I've been able to figure most of them out but there are a few that still throw me for a loop) and anything else to do with language.  In the autobiography I sent last night, Hamilton mentions how the Missourias speak in a peculiar way because they were still getting used to Otoe and he also gave his own interpretation for "Wakąnda".  So it is those kinds of things that I'm after.

 

Again, thank you!

 

Sky Campbell

Language Director

Otoe-Missouria Tribe

(580) 723-4466, ext. 111 <tel:%28580%29%20723-4466%2C%20ext.%20111> 

sky at omtribe.org

 

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Lori Stanley
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2014 12:49 AM


To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga

Importance: Low

 

Sky,

After I sent the previous email it occurred to me that the 1885 autobiography was probably not what you were looking for, but I wasn't able to check the document for a reference to "Caramonya" since I don't have access to my files right now.  You cleared up that question with your last email.

An online search has reminded me that Hamilton's original journal is in the Lewis Henry Morgan archives, and I'm pretty sure I have a copy of it.  In fact, the line about "Caramonya," the "old Indian who often visits us," sounds very familiar.  I'll check on this when I get back to Decorah in a few days.

Lori

 

On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 9:25 PM, Jimm G. GoodTracks <jgoodtracks at gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks Sky!  Great read that fills in and colors some of the early day life and scenes in the life of the people.    

 

From: Sky Campbell <mailto:sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM>  

Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 7:06 PM

To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu 

Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga

 

Thanks for the idea but unfortunately I already have that.  It isn't his journal but instead Hamilton was asked to write an autobiography.  This autobiography is great reading and is in the form of a letter but unfortunately it isn't his journal :(.

 

I'll attach it to this email just in case someone is interested.  Jimm, I believe you've seen this before but if not, happy reading! :)

 

Sky

 

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Lori Stanley
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 3:12 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga

 

Sky,
Here is the reference for the published version of Hamilton's journal:

Hamilton, William

1885    Autobiography of Reverend William Hamilton.  Transactions and Reports of the Nebraska State Historical Society 1:60-75.

 

I'm sure I have a copy and could send you a PDF, but I'm out of town for a few days.  Let me know if you get hold of it.  If not, I'll send it when I get back.

 

Lori

 

 

On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 2:19 PM, Campbell, Sky <sky at omtribe.org> wrote:

Those names are listed with "manyi" in other sources.  For example, Catlin has "Neu-mon-ya" and "Wash-ka-mon-ya" where that "manyi" can (usually) refer to "walk" or "always".  Ioway treaties has spellings like "Washcommanee" and "Ne-o-mon-ni".  What I'm thinking is that perhaps the "monga" came from looking a poor copies of old documents and that those "g" characters are most likely "y" characters.  These characters are handwritten and it only takes one little movement to "close up" a "y" at the top and make it look like a "g".

 

I've seen "Niyu Manyi" translated as walking rain, moving rain, and always raining.  I tend to lean towards that last one.

 

The name "Washka Manyi" as been translated as great walker, great marcher, and fast dancer so that one is a little tougher.  I can see how "washka" could maybe be a mash-up of "washi" (dance) and "kątha" (fast).  But when I decided to hit up a Ponca friend about his name "Washka" (that's his legal name, not just his "Indian name"), I found out the full form of his name is "Washka Mathi" which he translated as "Stands Strong."  I know that "mathi" in Ponca/Omaha is a cognate to the Otoe-Ioway "manyi" and also that Otoes and Ioways had the form "mathi" a long time ago.  So that got me to thinking that perhaps this Ioway individual might have roughly the same name as my Ponca friend (cognate forms notwithstanding).  The only trouble with that theory is that I've never seen a term "washka" to mean "strong" like it does in Ponca.  Dorsey shows the Jiwere cognate to "washka" as "brixe" (which is the term I am familiar with).  So is this one of those instances where Otoe-Ioway had more in common with Dhegiha almost 200 years ago and "washka" was used to mean "strong" (or a similiar idea) but no longer does?  It would seem likely since some of those translations for that name have the word "great" in them along with walker or marcher.  Strong walker/strong marcher perhaps?  But without more information, this is just yet another thing for me to keep in the back of my mind until I find that bit of information that helps clear it up.  May that day come soon!

 

Sky Campbell

Language Director

Otoe-Missouria Tribe

(580) 723-4466, ext. 111 <tel:%28580%29%20723-4466%2C%20ext.%20111> 

sky at omtribe.org

 

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2014 1:15 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga

 

Sky, do we know what “monga” means in the other names, Washkamonga and Neumonga?

 

Best,

Rory

                

 

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2014 9:28 AM
To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU
Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga

 

Greg was gracious enough to let me see the copies he was drawing from and sure enough, it looks like "monga" in the name.  But what I found interesting in that document was other familiar names...Washkamonga and Neumonga which we've seen elsewhere with the "monga" portion spelled with an "ny" instead of an "ng".  I also looked at the 1842 Ioway census and found "Caromonga" but instead it was spelled "Caramonya".  I did a quick Google search for "Caramonya" and got a couple hits on some books that had excerpts from Hamilton's journal.  He describes "Caramonya" as "an old Indian who often visits us."  Unfortunately he doesn't translate the name.  My first reaction was to think that perhaps Hamilton might be using his own orthography that he used in his books but the rest of the spelling doesn't bear that out.  I'd love to see more of Hamilton's journal to see if there are any clues in there.  Anyone know where I could get a hold of such a thing?

 

So it looks like that ending may actually be "manyi" (but perhaps not for the "ng/ny swap" that I suggested but maybe just a handwriting issue).  And it looks like both versions were written by the same person (there is the same flourish on the capital "C" in both versions of the name).

 

Council meeting image:

Caromonga.jpg

 

Ioway census image:

Caramonya.jpg

 

So if it is "Cara-" instead of "Caro-", then that can open up more possibilities perhaps.  But I'm still only coming up with ketą, kera and giro as my top suggestions for now.

 

Sky Campbell

Language Director

Otoe-Missouria Tribe

(580) 723-4466, ext. 111 <tel:%28580%29%20723-4466%2C%20ext.%20111> 

sky at omtribe.org

 

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2014 9:35 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga
Importance: Low

 

Well, going on what Jill says, the closet thing I can find is:  šedánaŋe; šedánaŋa  adv/prn.  that distant curvilinear object yonder; that distant land in sight.  However, I'm not comfortable that it is a good fit for "Carominga."  I don't know if the original notation was from a French or English document, and as such, cannot know to consider the phonetic value of the "C."  

 

But going with the possibility of it being "Ké" as in "Kétan" (turtle), we have:   

kétan; ketúnha; keton^a (SKN); qetan (DOR)  n.  turtle.   kétan xúha  n.  turtle shell.   Kétan wáñi pí añáñe ke,  It is said that turtle meat is good.

     kégrédheiñe; kégrédheiŋe      spotted (or) sand turtle

     kehtonha (SKN)                       snapping turtle; snapper

     kémarax^ín; kemárax^in (LWR)            snapping turtle

     ké márax^in “wrinkled turtle” mud turtle

     ketánna (LWR)                         snapping turtle; snapper

 

        But you see, the best contender is for:   

            kéra  adj.  clear (sky).   Clear Day; Clear Sky Appears  (a personal Buffalo Clan name)  n.  Kéra Tán^in; K^éra Tán^in.  **SEE: githóje; clear.

            

Also, thinking about the breakup of syllables as Justin suggest, there could be a connect with: 

            rominjí  n.  island.   Rominjí^iŋe(mi); Romínchiŋe; Irómiŋhšji; Jérominje; Romijiiŋemi (DOR); rúmitsí (MAX)  (a personal Buffalo Clan and Beaver Clan name)  Little Island.   Romihingu ~ Romihiŋu (SKN); Romijiiŋemi (DOR)  (a personal Pigeon Clan name)  Island.                

 And there was maybe the "g" is really a "j" which gives only one unlikely possibility:  

 mánje (?)(LWR); masjé  adj/v.i.  hot, warm (weather).

With the above, one could squeeze out a "Turtle Island," but, this possibility is not convincing to me.  

 

SO THEN, in appreciation to everyone's input, I have arrived full circle to my original conjecture that the name that most likely fits the documented transcription is:

 

KéraMánge (Clearing Day All About~ Prevailing).  In this case, the "mánge" (sitting) is used in the sense of a positional verb, saying that the clearing of the sky, was extensive over a wide area such might be view on the breathe of the open plains.  Further, such a rendering would be consistant to similar clan names.

 

I suggest one possibilty for Grey in working with his narrative is to include with the composed name, the original transcription, such as, "KéraMánge (Clearing Day All About) [Carminga (Document Source citations)].   Unless, new evidence appears, or further information, this is the best that can be made of that name.

 

Hánhe Pi, Good Night, Buenas Noches!

 

 

 

From: Greer, Jill <mailto:Greer-J at MSSU.EDU>  

Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2014 6:22 PM

To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu 

Subject: Re: Carominga

 

Justin and Sky - 

You guys with your programming talents-  impressive!  

 

Just one question for Jimm and Greg -  if the original person who transcribed the name was French (or a mixed blood literate in French-  as was common around St. Joseph),  the first syllabie "Ca" could even be /Sa/  or /se/  rather than Key, n'est pas?   I hate to muddy the waters, but all it takes is one person to miss the cedilla and we've switched the sound totally.  These old names are so slippery, but fascinating!  

 

Best,

Jill

 

  

On Jul 18, 2014, at 8:17 PM, "Mcbride, Justin" <jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU>

 wrote:

 

When you showed me that program last year, Sky, I remember thinking, "Now, THIS is awesome!" As a guy who, for years, was asked questions like, "What's my Granddad's name mean?" on a weekly basis, only to be handed a string of indecipherable 'ah's, 'eh's, and hyphens with a few consonants mixed in for good measure, I would have relished the opportunity to see a list the possible permutations presented at once. Now, if you could just build in some phonotactic constraint logic and SQL interaction with some sort of lexical database to provide suggestions--you know, the easy stuff--you'd have the proverbial better mousetrap!  :)  Ah, it's fun to dream! 

 

By the way, the name Kke Leze was the name of one of the last living male L1 Ks speakers. -jtm

 

On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 7:34 PM, Sky Campbell <sky at legendreaders.com> wrote:

Justin,

 

I thought of that too (and even thought of turtle LOL...ke for ketą) but nothing came to mind for the rest.  We have a precedent for this which is a name listed as "Ke Greðe" (Prairie Turtle/Spotted Turtle).  I seem to remember one or two more but can't think of them off the top of my head.

 

And thanks for pointing out the "g" possibly being the "j" sound.  That is usually one of the first things I consider but it totally slipped my mind.  Man, I really, REALLY need to finish my "character/morpheme swap" program for situations like this.

 

Sky

 

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mcbride, Justin
Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 5:46 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Carominga

 

Howdy, Jimm,

 

I wonder about the division of syllables into Caro and Monga. Is it possible that it could be Ca Romonga? I ask becasue, if it were a Kaw name, I'd think it might have something to do with kke, 'turtle,' which I'm pretty sure I've seen spelled as Ca in names before. I would also look at the r as representing either Ks y or l, and -ga part at the end (if it's not been switched, as Sky suggests, which I think is probable) as possibly representing like the Ks syllable j^e, which seems to happen fairly frequently in the names I've looked at. In short, I would expect something like kke yaNmaNj^e, which doesn't ring any bells at all in Ks. Now, I don't know much at all about IOM, lexically or phonologically--maybe this makes even less sense in IOM--but thought I just might throw that out there as food for thought. 

 

All the best,

-Justin

 

On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Sky Campbell <sky at legendreaders.com> wrote:

The "caro" portion has me thinking of a few possibilities:

 

kera (as you pointed out)

giro (happy)

 

The "monga" has me thinking of:

 

mange (lying down)

mange (chest)

womanke (easy) <-- perhaps unlikely

mąnka (medicine) <-- seems the most unlikely but I thought I'd throw it in there

 

Last is a "theory" that I have that perhaps somehow, some way, "monga" might be a form of "manyi/manye".  Considering how many examples of "ng" and "ny" being swapped out (sunge/sunye, -inge/-inye, etc.), I wonder if perhaps it might be a version of "manyi".  Especially since that word is used in so many names already and your friend noted that it appears in other names as well.  This is just speculation, of course.  Speaking of which, if they could provide examples of other names that use "monga", it might help us figure it out.

 

Sky

 

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks
Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 9:25 AM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Fw: Carominga

 

Does anyone have some thoughts to decipher the name: "Caromonga."  The last part appears to be "mange" (be in sitting position).  The first could be "kera" (cleared sky).

 

 

From: Greg Olson <mailto:caxelolson at gmail.com>  

Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 4:48 PM

To: Jimm GoodTracks <mailto:jgoodtracks at gmail.com>  

Subject: Carominga

 

Jimm, while proofing my manuscript, I came across an Ioway name I had overlooked. Caromonga. He is mentioned insome council   meetings during the 1840s. I notice the end of the name- monga -appears in other names too. 

 

Greg

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700 College Drive
Decorah, Iowa 52101
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700 College Drive
Decorah, Iowa 52101
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From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG  Wed Aug  6 14:34:20 2014
From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 09:34:20 -0500
Subject: Washk=?utf-8?Q?=C4=85_?=in Otoe-Missouria
Message-ID: <WED.6.AUG.2014.093420.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

A few weeks ago there was a discussion about the Ioway name "Washką Manyi" and the given translations such as Fast Dancer and Great Walker from historical documents.  I also mentioned a Ponca friend of mine with the name Washką Mathi which he translated as Stands Strong.  So I've been really interested in the term "washką" and if there was any Otoe equivalent.  The closest lead I found was Dorsey giving the Jiwere equivalent of washką as brixe in his Omaha/Ponca slips.

But poking through Dorsey's material a while ago I found this term:

nan-wañ-́e i-ra-́krin-wa-́shkan - to do his best to dodge or evade the blow, weapon, or pursuer

Then I was talking with my assistant today who is pretty knowledgeable in Osage and he mentioned in passing that Osages use "washką" to refer to doing their best.  So I looked in Dorsey's material again and found this by itself:

nan-wañ-́e - to dodge a blow or weapon; to evade the enemy, or pursuer

So that leaves us with  i-ra-́krin-wa-́shkan which Dorsey also has a separate slip for.  Unfortunately he doesn't translate it here but he does give this phrase:

irákrinwashkanˊwi hó

Based on what I've seen so far, it looks to be a command to "do your best".  But what is really interesting is Dorsey gives this afterward:

(eq. to Dh. washkan i-gă)

So now we have a direct comparison of the Otoe "iragrį washką" and Dhegiha "washką".  Has anyone else seen something like this floating around their respective languages?  I'm curious what the "iragrį" is doing here and why it is omitted for its Dhegiha equivalent.  And now because of the idea of "best" it has me wondering if this term is related to "wexa" (best).

Anyone have any thoughts?  If this term does in fact refer to doing your best, then the name "Washką Manyi" could perhaps roughly translate to "He Always Does His Best."

Sky Campbell
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
(580) 723-4466, ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org


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From jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU  Mon Aug 11 16:00:07 2014
From: jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU (Mcbride, Justin)
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2014 11:00:07 -0500
Subject: Washk=?UTF-8?Q?=C4=85_?=in Otoe-Missouria
In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E436C3E0371E19@Server6-EX.omtribe.net>
Message-ID: <MON.11.AUG.2014.110007.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Just means 'do one's best' in Dhegiha, a far as I've ever seen. It's very
common in Osage in particular; it used to be written on the back of all the
Language Dept. t-shirts.


On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 9:34 AM, Campbell, Sky <sky at omtribe.org> wrote:

> A few weeks ago there was a discussion about the Ioway name "Washką Manyi"
> and the given translations such as Fast Dancer and Great Walker from
> historical documents.  I also mentioned a Ponca friend of mine with the
> name Washką Mathi which he translated as Stands Strong.  So I've been
> really interested in the term "washką" and if there was any Otoe
> equivalent.  The closest lead I found was Dorsey giving the Jiwere
> equivalent of washką as brixe in his Omaha/Ponca slips.
>
>
>
> But poking through Dorsey's material a while ago I found this term:
>
>
>
> nan-wañ-́e i-ra-́krin-wa-́shkan - to do his best to dodge or evade the
> blow, weapon, or pursuer
>
>
>
> Then I was talking with my assistant today who is pretty knowledgeable in
> Osage and he mentioned in passing that Osages use "washką" to refer to
> doing their best.  So I looked in Dorsey's material again and found this by
> itself:
>
>
>
> nan-wañ-́e - to dodge a blow or weapon; to evade the enemy, or pursuer
>
>
>
> So that leaves us with  i-ra-́krin-wa-́shkan which Dorsey also has a
> separate slip for.  Unfortunately he doesn't translate it here but he does
> give this phrase:
>
>
>
> irákrinwashkanˊwi hó
>
>
>
> Based on what I've seen so far, it looks to be a command to "do your
> best".  But what is really interesting is Dorsey gives this afterward:
>
>
>
> (eq. to Dh. washkan i-gă)
>
>
>
> So now we have a direct comparison of the Otoe "iragrį washką" and Dhegiha
> "washką".  Has anyone else seen something like this floating around their
> respective languages?  I'm curious what the "iragrį" is doing here and why
> it is omitted for its Dhegiha equivalent.  And now because of the idea of
> "best" it has me wondering if this term is related to "wexa" (best).
>
>
>
> Anyone have any thoughts?  If this term does in fact refer to doing your
> best, then the name "Washką Manyi" could perhaps roughly translate to "He
> Always Does His Best."
>
>
>
> *Sky Campbell*
>
> Language Director
>
> Otoe-Missouria Tribe
>
> (580) 723-4466, ext. 111
>
> sky at omtribe.org
>
>
>
>   ­­
> -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu
> lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com
> due to thier DMARC policies.

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From ardise at HAWAII.EDU  Mon Aug 11 18:52:07 2014
From: ardise at HAWAII.EDU (Ardis Eschenberg)
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2014 08:52:07 -1000
Subject: Washk=?utf-8?Q?=C4=85_?=in Otoe-Missouria
In-Reply-To: <53E8BC390200008E000C2402@hermes.wsc.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.11.AUG.2014.085207.1000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

In addition to ʻDo one’s best,ʻ washkoN is also often translated as ʻbe strong’ (for example, said to one who is grieving) and is used to connote strength, such as in ʻWashkoN tonga,’ meaning strong or muscular.  

So, could also mean ʻWalks Strong’ or ʻAlways Strong’ for the name given.


Ardis Eschenberg, Ph.D.
Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs
Windward Community College
(808) 235-7443
ardise at hawaii.edu





On Aug 11, 2014, at 7:51 AM, Catherine Rudin <carudin1 at WSC.EDU> wrote:

> Common in Omaha too.  At one time it was the UmoNhoN Nation School's sports teams cheer; maybe still is. 
> 
> >>> "Mcbride, Justin" 08/11/14 11:01 AM >>>
> Just means 'do one's best' in Dhegiha, a far as I've ever seen. It's very common in Osage in particular; it used to be written on the back of all the Language Dept. t-shirts. 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 9:34 AM, Campbell, Sky <sky at omtribe.org> wrote:
> A few weeks ago there was a discussion about the Ioway name "Washką Manyi" and the given translations such as Fast Dancer and Great Walker from historical documents.  I also mentioned a Ponca friend of mine with the name Washką Mathi which he translated as Stands Strong.  So I've been really interested in the term "washką" and if there was any Otoe equivalent.  The closest lead I found was Dorsey giving the Jiwere equivalent of washką as brixe in his Omaha/Ponca slips.
> 
>  
> 
> But poking through Dorsey's material a while ago I found this term:
> 
>  
> 
> nan-wañ-́e i-ra-́krin-wa-́shkan - to do his best to dodge or evade the blow, weapon, or pursuer
> 
>  
> 
> Then I was talking with my assistant today who is pretty knowledgeable in Osage and he mentioned in passing that Osages use "washką" to refer to doing their best.  So I looked in Dorsey's material again and found this by itself:
> 
>  
> 
> nan-wañ-́e - to dodge a blow or weapon; to evade the enemy, or pursuer
> 
>  
> 
> So that leaves us with  i-ra-́krin-wa-́shkan which Dorsey also has a separate slip for.  Unfortunately he doesn't translate it here but he does give this phrase:
> 
>  
> 
> irákrinwashkanˊwi hó
> 
>  
> 
> Based on what I've seen so far, it looks to be a command to "do your best".  But what is really interesting is Dorsey gives this afterward:
> 
>  
> 
> (eq. to Dh. washkan i-gă)
> 
>  
> 
> So now we have a direct comparison of the Otoe "iragrį washką" and Dhegiha "washką".  Has anyone else seen something like this floating around their respective languages?  I'm curious what the "iragrį" is doing here and why it is omitted for its Dhegiha equivalent.  And now because of the idea of "best" it has me wondering if this term is related to "wexa" (best).
> 
>  
> 
> Anyone have any thoughts?  If this term does in fact refer to doing your best, then the name "Washką Manyi" could perhaps roughly translate to "He Always Does His Best."
> 
>  
> 
> Sky Campbell
> 
> Language Director
> 
> Otoe-Missouria Tribe
> 
> (580) 723-4466, ext. 111
> 
> sky at omtribe.org
> 
>  
> 
> 
>   ­­  
> -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies.
> 
> -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies.
> -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies.


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From carudin1 at WSC.EDU  Mon Aug 11 17:51:05 2014
From: carudin1 at WSC.EDU (Catherine Rudin)
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2014 12:51:05 -0500
Subject: Washk=?UTF-8?Q?=C4=85_?=in Otoe-Missouria
Message-ID: <MON.11.AUG.2014.125105.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Common in Omaha too.  At one time it was the UmoNhoN Nation School's
sports teams cheer; maybe still is. 

>>> "Mcbride, Justin"  08/11/14 11:01 AM >>>
Just means 'do one's best' in Dhegiha, a far as I've ever seen. It's
very common in Osage in particular; it used to be written on the back of
all the Language Dept. t-shirts. 


On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 9:34 AM, Campbell, Sky <sky at omtribe.org> wrote:
A few weeks ago there was a discussion about the Ioway name "Washką
Manyi" and the given translations such as Fast Dancer and Great Walker
from historical documents.  I also mentioned a Ponca friend of mine with
the name Washką Mathi which he translated as Stands Strong.  So I've
been really interested in the term "washką" and if there was any Otoe
equivalent.  The closest lead I found was Dorsey giving the Jiwere
equivalent of washką as brixe in his Omaha/Ponca slips.
 
But poking through Dorsey's material a while ago I found this term:
 
nan-wañ-́e i-ra-́krin-wa-́shkan - to do his best to dodge or evade the
blow, weapon, or pursuer
 
Then I was talking with my assistant today who is pretty knowledgeable
in Osage and he mentioned in passing that Osages use "washką" to refer
to doing their best.  So I looked in Dorsey's material again and found
this by itself:
 
nan-wañ-́e - to dodge a blow or weapon; to evade the enemy, or pursuer
 
So that leaves us with  i-ra-́krin-wa-́shkan which Dorsey also has a
separate slip for.  Unfortunately he doesn't translate it here but he
does give this phrase:
 
irákrinwashkanˊwi hó
 
Based on what I've seen so far, it looks to be a command to "do your
best".  But what is really interesting is Dorsey gives this afterward:
 
(eq. to Dh. washkan i-gă)
 
So now we have a direct comparison of the Otoe "iragrį washką" and
Dhegiha "washką".  Has anyone else seen something like this floating
around their respective languages?  I'm curious what the "iragrį" is
doing here and why it is omitted for its Dhegiha equivalent.  And now
because of the idea of "best" it has me wondering if this term is
related to "wexa" (best).
 
Anyone have any thoughts?  If this term does in fact refer to doing your
best, then the name "Washką Manyi" could perhaps roughly translate to
"He Always Does His Best."
 
Sky Campbell
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
(580) 723-4466, ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org
 


  ­­  
--Manage your subscription at  http://listserv.unl.edu.listserv.unl.edu
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Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies.


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From sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM  Wed Aug 20 18:15:03 2014
From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM (Sky Campbell)
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 13:15:03 -0500
Subject: Washk=?UTF-8?Q?=C4=85_?=in Otoe-Missouria
In-Reply-To: <B53EECA7-47D0-4783-BFFE-045566589ACC@hawaii.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.20.AUG.2014.131503.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Thanks for the replies!  Sorry for the late reply.  Been having a few computer issues on this end and I'd hoped to be able to do more effective digging before I responded.  But my problems might not be fixed for another week (waiting on a part) so I thought I'd go ahead and respond anyway.

 

The Walks Strong or Always Strong definitely fits with what I am thinking for that name.  However I'd feel much better about that if I found more info on it.  Perhaps Dorsey has a few more "washką/iragrį washką" terms attached to other terms in his vocabulary slips.  Still, old translations of Great Walker or Great Marcher have me thinking that that is correct.  However I still can't ignore the old translation of Fast Dancer which I can JUST see could be formed out of Washką Manyi (wasi/washi (dance) + kąntha (fast) + manyi (always)).  While I am leaning heavily towards Always Strong (and other similar translations), there is the possibility that Fast Dancer could also be correct.  And I'm not one to declare a "winner" in a situation like this.  My determination is irrelevant.  The term/name means what it means and so long as there is a possibility of another translation, I am loathe to say "Yep, this is what it means."  I like to qualify things like that with "This is what it looks like it says, however it could also mean this..."  That's a hard line to walk in a field that likes answers to this sort of thing LOL.

 

But again, thanks for the replies and if anyone has any other information, I'd love to hear it.

 

Sky

 

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Ardis Eschenberg
Sent: Monday, August 11, 2014 1:52 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Washką in Otoe-Missouria

 

In addition to ʻDo one’s best,ʻ washkoN is also often translated as ʻbe strong’ (for example, said to one who is grieving) and is used to connote strength, such as in ʻWashkoN tonga,’ meaning strong or muscular.  

 

So, could also mean ʻWalks Strong’ or ʻAlways Strong’ for the name given.

 

 

Ardis Eschenberg, Ph.D.

Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs

Windward Community College

(808) 235-7443

ardise at hawaii.edu

 

 

 

 

On Aug 11, 2014, at 7:51 AM, Catherine Rudin <carudin1 at WSC.EDU> wrote:





Common in Omaha too.  At one time it was the UmoNhoN Nation School's sports teams cheer; maybe still is. 

>>> "Mcbride, Justin" 08/11/14 11:01 AM >>>

Just means 'do one's best' in Dhegiha, a far as I've ever seen. It's very common in Osage in particular; it used to be written on the back of all the Language Dept. t-shirts. 

 

On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 9:34 AM, Campbell, Sky <sky at omtribe.org> wrote:

A few weeks ago there was a discussion about the Ioway name "Washką Manyi" and the given translations such as Fast Dancer and Great Walker from historical documents.  I also mentioned a Ponca friend of mine with the name Washką Mathi which he translated as Stands Strong.  So I've been really interested in the term "washką" and if there was any Otoe equivalent.  The closest lead I found was Dorsey giving the Jiwere equivalent of washką as brixe in his Omaha/Ponca slips.

 

But poking through Dorsey's material a while ago I found this term:

 

nan-wañ-́e i-ra-́krin-wa-́shkan - to do his best to dodge or evade the blow, weapon, or pursuer

 

Then I was talking with my assistant today who is pretty knowledgeable in Osage and he mentioned in passing that Osages use "washką" to refer to doing their best.  So I looked in Dorsey's material again and found this by itself:

 

nan-wañ-́e - to dodge a blow or weapon; to evade the enemy, or pursuer

 

So that leaves us with  i-ra-́krin-wa-́shkan which Dorsey also has a separate slip for.  Unfortunately he doesn't translate it here but he does give this phrase:

 

irákrinwashkanˊwi hó

 

Based on what I've seen so far, it looks to be a command to "do your best".  But what is really interesting is Dorsey gives this afterward:

 

(eq. to Dh. washkan i-gă)

 

So now we have a direct comparison of the Otoe "iragrį washką" and Dhegiha "washką".  Has anyone else seen something like this floating around their respective languages?  I'm curious what the "iragrį" is doing here and why it is omitted for its Dhegiha equivalent.  And now because of the idea of "best" it has me wondering if this term is related to "wexa" (best).

 

Anyone have any thoughts?  If this term does in fact refer to doing your best, then the name "Washką Manyi" could perhaps roughly translate to "He Always Does His Best."

 

Sky Campbell

Language Director

Otoe-Missouria Tribe

(580) 723-4466, ext. 111 <tel:%28580%29%20723-4466%2C%20ext.%20111> 

sky at omtribe.org

 


  ­­  

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From mary.marino at USASK.CA  Mon Aug 25 20:42:35 2014
From: mary.marino at USASK.CA (Mary C Marino)
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 14:42:35 -0600
Subject: Linguist List
Message-ID: <MON.25.AUG.2014.144235.0600.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Hello fellow Siouanists

Is anyone else having trouble subscribing to Linguist List?  They have 
reorganized their computer system and appear to have lost my 
subscription.  My attempts to resubscribe get no response.  It seems 
impossible to leave a message about this as well.  Do any of you know 
anything about this?

Best
Mary Marino

--
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From mateja.schuck at GMAIL.COM  Mon Aug 25 20:52:12 2014
From: mateja.schuck at GMAIL.COM (Mateja Schuck)
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 15:52:12 -0500
Subject: Linguist List
In-Reply-To: <53FB9FBB.8010809@usask.ca>
Message-ID: <MON.25.AUG.2014.155212.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Hi Mary (and everyone),

I work for LINGUIST List and while I am only on the book review side of
things, I can tell you that your subscription problems are very likely due
to their having to switch servers.  They have been working day and night to
get everything in working order again and so can only assume this is why
response time is so regrettably slow.  I'll pass along this message to one
of the IT people that I know and see if they can make sure to respond to
your messages.

Best,

Mateja


On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 3:42 PM, Mary C Marino <mary.marino at usask.ca> wrote:

> Hello fellow Siouanists
>
> Is anyone else having trouble subscribing to Linguist List?  They have
> reorganized their computer system and appear to have lost my subscription.
> My attempts to resubscribe get no response.  It seems impossible to leave a
> message about this as well.  Do any of you know anything about this?
>
> Best
> Mary Marino
>
> --
> Manage your subscription at  http://listserv.unl.edu.
> listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com,
> AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies.
>

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From carudin1 at WSC.EDU  Mon Aug 25 21:00:41 2014
From: carudin1 at WSC.EDU (Catherine Rudin)
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 16:00:41 -0500
Subject: Linguist List
In-Reply-To: <53FB9FBB.8010809@usask.ca>
Message-ID: <MON.25.AUG.2014.160041.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

I haven't had trouble with Linguist List, but I know they've been reorganizing and moving, so it's maybe not surprising that there are some mess-ups.  If it doesn't solve itself soon, I would contact Damir Cavar personally.  He's just moved to Indiana University from Michigan but it should be easy enough to find him (by phoning the IU Linguistics dept., if nothing else).  

Good luck --
Catherine

>>> Mary C Marino <mary.marino at USASK.CA> 08/25/14 3:44 PM >>>
Hello fellow Siouanists

Is anyone else having trouble subscribing to Linguist List?  They have 
reorganized their computer system and appear to have lost my 
subscription.  My attempts to resubscribe get no response.  It seems 
impossible to leave a message about this as well.  Do any of you know 
anything about this?

Best
Mary Marino

--
Manage your subscription at  http://listserv.unl.edu.
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From mary.marino at USASK.CA  Mon Aug 25 21:00:52 2014
From: mary.marino at USASK.CA (Mary C Marino)
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 15:00:52 -0600
Subject: Linguist List
In-Reply-To: <CANfvM5LbjAJOq7JV42um1WSM2MnDEiZGmAfz4S4esZWQhBURvQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MON.25.AUG.2014.150052.0600.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Thanks Mateja -- I do hope it gets straightened out.

Mary

On 25/08/2014 2:52 PM, Mateja Schuck wrote:
> Hi Mary (and everyone),
>
> I work for LINGUIST List and while I am only on the book review side 
> of things, I can tell you that your subscription problems are very 
> likely due to their having to switch servers.  They have been working 
> day and night to get everything in working order again and so can only 
> assume this is why response time is so regrettably slow.  I'll pass 
> along this message to one of the IT people that I know and see if they 
> can make sure to respond to your messages.
>
> Best,
>
> Mateja
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 3:42 PM, Mary C Marino <mary.marino at usask.ca 
> <mailto:mary.marino at usask.ca>> wrote:
>
>     Hello fellow Siouanists
>
>     Is anyone else having trouble subscribing to Linguist List? They
>     have reorganized their computer system and appear to have lost my
>     subscription.  My attempts to resubscribe get no response.  It
>     seems impossible to leave a message about this as well.  Do any of
>     you know anything about this?
>
>     Best
>     Mary Marino
>
>     --
>     Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu.
>     listserv.unl.edu <http://listserv.unl.edu> lists do not accept
>     incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier
>     DMARC policies.
>
>
> -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. 
> listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, 
> AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. 


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From stanleyl at LUTHER.EDU  Mon Aug  4 00:50:21 2014
From: stanleyl at LUTHER.EDU (Lori Stanley)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2014 19:50:21 -0500
Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga
In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E436C33FE5D6AA@Server6-EX.omtribe.net>
Message-ID: <SUN.3.AUG.2014.195021.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Sky and Jimm,
I've searched high and low, found things I forgot I had, but haven't
located the Hamilton journal.  I was certain I had a copy, but either I
imagined it (maybe just got it confused with the Irvin journal?) or it got
separated from all my other I-O material.  I'm stumped.

The reference I have to Hamilton's journal is a note by Leslie White in the
published journals of Lewis Henry Morgan (*Lewis Henry Morgan: The Indian
Journals, 1859-62*, Leslie A. White, ed., University of Michigan Press,
1959).  Note 46 on page 251 reads as follows:

*Among the Morgan archives in the University of Rochester Library there is
a manuscript of some thirty pages, ?Extracts from the Unpublished Journals
of Rev. William Hamilton, a Missionary of the Presbyterian Board for Twenty
Years among the Iowas and Sacs of Kansas and the Omahas of Nebraska, now
resident in Bellevue.? The extracts are from the years 1848-52. They
contain considerable ethnographic data. They also report verbatim
conversations between Rev. Hamilton and Indians in which the former tries
to show the Indians how wrong?not to say ridiculous?their religious beliefs
are, and that the religion of the Presbyterians is the only true faith.*


According to the University of Rochester library website the Hamilton
manuscript is in the collection titled Lewis Henry Morgan Papers
<https://www.lib.rochester.edu/index.cfm?page=998>,  Box 23, Folder 94.  So
far I haven't found any evidence that the journal has been published in its
entirety.


If you plan to try to get a copy from the U of R library, let me know.  If
not, I might contact them about it myself.


Sorry I couldn't come up with it!


Lori



On Fri, Jul 25, 2014 at 8:27 AM, Campbell, Sky <sky at omtribe.org> wrote:

> Wow, thank you!  I've been over Hamilton and Irvin's material up one side
> and down the other approximately 345,681,130 times and each time I do, I
> learn and understand more.  We've already transcribed their books (makes it
> SUPER easy to do a quick search for something!) and are in the process of
> transliterating them.  They paid so much attention to detail in those books
> that I'm hoping that his journal is the same way and that there is some
> good language information floating around in there.
>
>
>
> I'll attach a PDF of the extracts from Hamilton's journal with the mention
> of "Caramonya".  It is on the second page (page 372) under the section of
> "Superstition of the Indians - Otter Dance".  It is a neat little blurb
> about how Hamilton shot a "weasel" and that Caramonya wished he hadn't shot
> it because if he hadn't, he could have taken the skin and made a shirt that
> would make him impervious to bullets.  He said if he made the shirt of one
> that had been shot, he'd be killed and that it needed to be choked to death
> instead.
>
>
>
> What I hope for is more names mentioned (Hopefully with
> translations...Merrill has quite a few names in his diary but not
> translations.  I've been able to figure most of them out but there are a
> few that still throw me for a loop) and anything else to do with language.
> In the autobiography I sent last night, Hamilton mentions how the
> Missourias speak in a peculiar way because they were still getting used to
> Otoe and he also gave his own interpretation for "Wak?nda".  So it is those
> kinds of things that I'm after.
>
>
>
> Again, thank you!
>
>
>
> *Sky Campbell*
>
> Language Director
>
> Otoe-Missouria Tribe
>
> (580) 723-4466, ext. 111
>
> sky at omtribe.org
>
>
>
> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of
> *Lori Stanley
> *Sent:* Friday, July 25, 2014 12:49 AM
>
> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> *Subject:* Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga
> *Importance:* Low
>
>
>
> Sky,
>
> After I sent the previous email it occurred to me that the 1885
> autobiography was probably not what you were looking for, but I wasn't able
> to check the document for a reference to "Caramonya" since I don't have
> access to my files right now.  You cleared up that question with your last
> email.
>
> An online search has reminded me that Hamilton's original journal is in
> the Lewis Henry Morgan archives, and I'm pretty sure I have a copy of it.
> In fact, the line about "Caramonya," the "old Indian who often visits us,"
> sounds very familiar.  I'll check on this when I get back to Decorah in a
> few days.
>
> Lori
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 9:25 PM, Jimm G. GoodTracks <jgoodtracks at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Thanks Sky!  Great read that fills in and colors some of the early day
> life and scenes in the life of the people.
>
>
>
> *From:* Sky Campbell <sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM>
>
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 24, 2014 7:06 PM
>
> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga
>
>
>
> Thanks for the idea but unfortunately I already have that.  It isn't his
> journal but instead Hamilton was asked to write an autobiography.  This
> autobiography is great reading and is in the form of a letter but
> unfortunately it isn't his journal :(.
>
>
>
> I'll attach it to this email just in case someone is interested.  Jimm, I
> believe you've seen this before but if not, happy reading! :)
>
>
>
> Sky
>
>
>
> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of
> *Lori Stanley
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 24, 2014 3:12 PM
> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> *Subject:* Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga
>
>
>
> Sky,
> Here is the reference for the published version of Hamilton's journal:
>
> Hamilton, William
>
> 1885    Autobiography of Reverend William Hamilton.  *Transactions and
> Reports of the Nebraska State Historical Society* 1:60-75.
>
>
>
> I'm sure I have a copy and could send you a PDF, but I'm out of town for a
> few days.  Let me know if you get hold of it.  If not, I'll send it when I
> get back.
>
>
>
> Lori
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 2:19 PM, Campbell, Sky <sky at omtribe.org> wrote:
>
> Those names are listed with "manyi" in other sources.  For example, Catlin
> has "Neu-mon-ya" and "Wash-ka-mon-ya" where that "manyi" can (usually)
> refer to "walk" or "always".  Ioway treaties has spellings like
> "Washcommanee" and "Ne-o-mon-ni".  What I'm thinking is that perhaps the
> "monga" came from looking a poor copies of old documents and that those "g"
> characters are most likely "y" characters.  These characters are
> handwritten and it only takes one little movement to "close up" a "y" at
> the top and make it look like a "g".
>
>
>
> I've seen "Niyu Manyi" translated as walking rain, moving rain, and always
> raining.  I tend to lean towards that last one.
>
>
>
> The name "Washka Manyi" as been translated as great walker, great marcher,
> and fast dancer so that one is a little tougher.  I can see how "washka"
> could maybe be a mash-up of "washi" (dance) and "k?tha" (fast).  But when I
> decided to hit up a Ponca friend about his name "Washka" (that's his legal
> name, not just his "Indian name"), I found out the full form of his name is
> "Washka Mathi" which he translated as "Stands Strong."  I know that "mathi"
> in Ponca/Omaha is a cognate to the Otoe-Ioway "manyi" and also that Otoes
> and Ioways had the form "mathi" a long time ago.  So that got me to
> thinking that perhaps this Ioway individual might have roughly the same
> name as my Ponca friend (cognate forms notwithstanding).  The only trouble
> with that theory is that I've never seen a term "washka" to mean "strong"
> like it does in Ponca.  Dorsey shows the Jiwere cognate to "washka" as
> "brixe" (which is the term I am familiar with).  So is this one of those
> instances where Otoe-Ioway had more in common with Dhegiha almost 200 years
> ago and "washka" was used to mean "strong" (or a similiar idea) but no
> longer does?  It would seem likely since some of those translations for
> that name have the word "great" in them along with walker or marcher.
> Strong walker/strong marcher perhaps?  But without more information, this
> is just yet another thing for me to keep in the back of my mind until I
> find that bit of information that helps clear it up.  May that day come
> soon!
>
>
>
> *Sky Campbell*
>
> Language Director
>
> Otoe-Missouria Tribe
>
> (580) 723-4466, ext. 111
>
> sky at omtribe.org
>
>
>
> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of
> *Rory Larson
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 23, 2014 1:15 PM
> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> *Subject:* Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga
>
>
>
> Sky, do we know what ?monga? means in the other names, Washkamonga and
> Neumonga?
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Rory
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> <SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>] *On Behalf Of *Campbell, Sky
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 23, 2014 9:28 AM
> *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU
> *Subject:* Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga
>
>
>
> Greg was gracious enough to let me see the copies he was drawing from and
> sure enough, it looks like "monga" in the name.  But what I found
> interesting in that document was other familiar names...Washkamonga and
> Neumonga which we've seen elsewhere with the "monga" portion spelled with
> an "ny" instead of an "ng".  I also looked at the 1842 Ioway census and
> found "Caromonga" but instead it was spelled "Caramonya".  I did a quick
> Google search for "Caramonya" and got a couple hits on some books that had
> excerpts from Hamilton's journal.  He describes "Caramonya" as "an old
> Indian who often visits us."  Unfortunately he doesn't translate the name.
> My first reaction was to think that perhaps Hamilton might be using his own
> orthography that he used in his books but the rest of the spelling doesn't
> bear that out.  I'd love to see more of Hamilton's journal to see if there
> are any clues in there.  Anyone know where I could get a hold of such a
> thing?
>
>
>
> So it looks like that ending may actually be "manyi" (but perhaps not for
> the "ng/ny swap" that I suggested but maybe just a handwriting issue).  And
> it looks like both versions were written by the same person (there is the
> same flourish on the capital "C" in both versions of the name).
>
>
>
> Council meeting image:
>
> [image: Caromonga.jpg]
>
>
>
> Ioway census image:
>
> [image: Caramonya.jpg]
>
>
>
> So if it is "Cara-" instead of "Caro-", then that can open up more
> possibilities perhaps.  But I'm still only coming up with ket?, kera and
> giro as my top suggestions for now.
>
>
>
> *Sky Campbell*
>
> Language Director
>
> Otoe-Missouria Tribe
>
> (580) 723-4466, ext. 111
>
> sky at omtribe.org
>
>
>
> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> <SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>] *On Behalf Of *Jimm G. GoodTracks
> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 22, 2014 9:35 PM
> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> *Subject:* [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga
> *Importance:* Low
>
>
>
> Well, going on what Jill says, the closet thing I can find is:  *?ed?na?e;
> ?ed?na?a**  adv/prn.  *that distant curvilinear object yonder; that
> distant land in sight.  However, I'm not comfortable that it is a good
> fit for "Carominga."  I don't know if the original notation was from a
> French or English document, and as such, cannot know to consider the
> phonetic value of the "C."
>
>
>
> But going with the possibility of it being "K?" as in "K?tan" (turtle), we
> have:
>
> *k?tan; ket?nha;* keton^a (SKN); qetan (DOR)*  n.  *turtle.   *k?tan x?ha**
> n.  *turtle shell.   *K?tan* w??i p? a???e ke,  It is said that *turtle*
> meat is good.
>
>      *k?gr?dhei?e; k?gr?dhei?e*      spotted (or) sand turtle
>
>      *kehtonha* (SKN)                       snapping turtle; snapper
>
>      *k?marax^?n; kem?rax^in* (LWR)            snapping turtle
>
>      *k? m?rax^in* ?wrinkled turtle? mud turtle
>
>      *ket?nna* (LWR)                         snapping turtle; snapper
>
>
>
>         But you see, the best contender is for:
>
> *            k?ra**  adj.  *clear (*sky*).   *Clear Day;* *Clear Sky
> Appears*  (*a personal Buffalo Clan name*)*  n.  *K?ra T?n^in; K^?ra T?n^i
> n.  ***SEE*: *gith?je; clear.*
>
>
>
> Also, thinking about the breakup of syllables as Justin suggest, there
> could be a connect with:
>
>             *rominj?**  n.  *island.   *Rominj?^i?e(mi); Rom?nchi?e;
> Ir?mi?h?ji; J?rominje;* Romijii?emi (DOR); r?mits? (MAX)  (*a personal
> Buffalo Clan and Beaver Clan name*)  Little Island.   *Romihingu ~
> Romihi?u* (SKN)*;* Romijii?emi (DOR)  (*a personal Pigeon Clan name*)
> Island.
>
>  And there was maybe the "g" is really a "j" which gives only one unlikely
> possibility:
>
>  *m?nje* (?)(LWR)*; masj?**  adj/v.i.  *hot, warm (*weather*).
>
> With the above, one could squeeze out a "Turtle Island," but, this
> possibility is not convincing to me.
>
>
>
> *SO THEN, *in appreciation to everyone's input, I have arrived full
> circle to my original conjecture that the name that most likely fits the
> documented transcription is:
>
>
>
> *K?raM?nge* (Clearing Day All About~ Prevailing).  In this case, the
> "m?nge" (sitting) is used in the sense of a positional verb, saying that
> the clearing of the sky, was extensive over a wide area such might be view
> on the breathe of the open plains.  Further, such a rendering would be
> consistant to similar clan names.
>
>
>
> I suggest one possibilty for Grey in working with his narrative is to
> include with the composed name, the original transcription, such as, "
> *K?raM?nge* (Clearing Day All About) [Carminga (Document Source
> citations)].   Unless, new evidence appears, or further information, this
> is the best that can be made of that name.
>
>
>
> H?nhe Pi, Good Night, Buenas Noches!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Greer, Jill <Greer-J at MSSU.EDU>
>
> *Sent:* Saturday, July 19, 2014 6:22 PM
>
> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
>
> *Subject:* Re: Carominga
>
>
>
> Justin and Sky -
>
> You guys with your programming talents-  impressive!
>
>
>
> Just one question for Jimm and Greg -  if the original person who
> transcribed the name was French (or a mixed blood literate in French-  as
> was common around St. Joseph),  the first syllabie "Ca" could even be /Sa/
>  or /se/  rather than Key, n'est pas?   I hate to muddy the waters, but all
> it takes is one person to miss the cedilla and we've switched the sound
> totally.  These old names are so slippery, but fascinating!
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Jill
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jul 18, 2014, at 8:17 PM, "Mcbride, Justin" <
> jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU>
>
>  wrote:
>
>
>
> When you showed me that program last year, Sky, I remember thinking, "Now,
> THIS is awesome!" As a guy who, for years, was asked questions like,
> "What's my Granddad's name mean?" on a weekly basis, only to be handed a
> string of indecipherable 'ah's, 'eh's, and hyphens with a few consonants
> mixed in for good measure, I would have relished the opportunity to see a
> list the possible permutations presented at once. Now, if you could just
> build in some phonotactic constraint logic and SQL interaction with some
> sort of lexical database to provide suggestions--you know, the easy
> stuff--you'd have the proverbial better mousetrap!  :)  Ah, it's fun to
> dream!
>
>
>
> By the way, the name Kke Leze was the name of one of the last living male
> L1 Ks speakers. -jtm
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 7:34 PM, Sky Campbell <sky at legendreaders.com>
> wrote:
>
> Justin,
>
>
>
> I thought of that too (and even thought of turtle LOL...ke for ket?) but
> nothing came to mind for the rest.  We have a precedent for this which is a
> name listed as "Ke Gre?e" (Prairie Turtle/Spotted Turtle).  I seem to
> remember one or two more but can't think of them off the top of my head.
>
>
>
> And thanks for pointing out the "g" possibly being the "j" sound.  That is
> usually one of the first things I consider but it totally slipped my mind.
> Man, I really, REALLY need to finish my "character/morpheme swap" program
> for situations like this.
>
>
>
> Sky
>
>
>
> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of
> *Mcbride, Justin
> *Sent:* Friday, July 18, 2014 5:46 PM
> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> *Subject:* Re: Carominga
>
>
>
> Howdy, Jimm,
>
>
>
> I wonder about the division of syllables into Caro and Monga. Is it
> possible that it could be Ca Romonga? I ask becasue, if it were a Kaw name,
> I'd think it might have something to do with kke, 'turtle,' which I'm
> pretty sure I've seen spelled as Ca in names before. I would also look at
> the r as representing either Ks y or l, and -ga part at the end (if it's
> not been switched, as Sky suggests, which I think is probable) as possibly
> representing like the Ks syllable j^e, which seems to happen fairly
> frequently in the names I've looked at. In short, I would expect something
> like kke yaNmaNj^e, which doesn't ring any bells at all in Ks. Now, I don't
> know much at all about IOM, lexically or phonologically--maybe this makes
> even less sense in IOM--but thought I just might throw that out there as
> food for thought.
>
>
>
> All the best,
>
> -Justin
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Sky Campbell <sky at legendreaders.com>
> wrote:
>
> The "caro" portion has me thinking of a few possibilities:
>
>
>
> kera (as you pointed out)
>
> giro (happy)
>
>
>
> The "monga" has me thinking of:
>
>
>
> mange (lying down)
>
> mange (chest)
>
> womanke (easy) <-- perhaps unlikely
>
> m?nka (medicine) <-- seems the most unlikely but I thought I'd throw it in
> there
>
>
>
> Last is a "theory" that I have that perhaps somehow, some way, "monga"
> might be a form of "manyi/manye".  Considering how many examples of "ng"
> and "ny" being swapped out (sunge/sunye, -inge/-inye, etc.), I wonder if
> perhaps it might be a version of "manyi".  Especially since that word is
> used in so many names already and your friend noted that it appears in
> other names as well.  This is just speculation, of course.  Speaking of
> which, if they could provide examples of other names that use "monga", it
> might help us figure it out.
>
>
>
> Sky
>
>
>
> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of
> *Jimm G. GoodTracks
> *Sent:* Friday, July 18, 2014 9:25 AM
> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> *Subject:* Fw: Carominga
>
>
>
> Does anyone have some thoughts to decipher the name: "Caromonga."  The
> last part appears to be "mange" (be in sitting position).  The first could
> be "kera" (cleared sky).
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Greg Olson <caxelolson at gmail.com>
>
> *Sent:* Friday, July 11, 2014 4:48 PM
>
> *To:* Jimm GoodTracks <jgoodtracks at gmail.com>
>
> *Subject:* Carominga
>
>
>
> Jimm, while proofing my manuscript, I came across an Ioway name I had
> overlooked. Caromonga. He is mentioned insome council   meetings during the
> 1840s. I notice the end of the name- monga -appears in other names too.
>
>
>
> Greg
>
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>   ??
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> --
> Lori A. Stanley
> Professor of Anthropology
> Luther College
> 700 College Drive
> Decorah, Iowa 52101
> 563-387-1283
>
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>
>
> --
> Lori A. Stanley
> Professor of Anthropology
> Luther College
> 700 College Drive
> Decorah, Iowa 52101
> 563-387-1283
>
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-- 
Lori A. Stanley
Professor of Anthropology
Luther College
700 College Drive
Decorah, Iowa 52101
563-387-1283

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From sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM  Mon Aug  4 04:32:30 2014
From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM (Sky Campbell)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2014 23:32:30 -0500
Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga
In-Reply-To: <CAKQkspZeBLxf1r22fBDnO4ZreL=r2sG_E7Y9Oz9dYHM-zFk=bg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.3.AUG.2014.233230.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Sounds good!  I'll try checking in on it tomorrow and I'll let you know what I find :).

 

Sky

 

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Lori Stanley
Sent: Sunday, August 3, 2014 7:50 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga

 

Sky and Jimm,

I've searched high and low, found things I forgot I had, but haven't located the Hamilton journal.  I was certain I had a copy, but either I imagined it (maybe just got it confused with the Irvin journal?) or it got separated from all my other I-O material.  I'm stumped.

The reference I have to Hamilton's journal is a note by Leslie White in the published journals of Lewis Henry Morgan (Lewis Henry Morgan: The Indian Journals, 1859-62, Leslie A. White, ed., University of Michigan Press, 1959).  Note 46 on page 251 reads as follows:

 

Among the Morgan archives in the University of Rochester Library there is a manuscript of some thirty pages, ?Extracts from the Unpublished Journals of Rev. William Hamilton, a Missionary of the Presbyterian Board for Twenty Years among the Iowas and Sacs of Kansas and the Omahas of Nebraska, now resident in Bellevue.? The extracts are from the years 1848-52. They contain considerable ethnographic data. They also report verbatim conversations between Rev. Hamilton and Indians in which the former tries to show the Indians how wrong?not to say ridiculous?their religious beliefs are, and that the religion of the Presbyterians is the only true faith.

 

According to the University of Rochester library website the Hamilton manuscript is in the collection titled Lewis Henry Morgan Papers <https://www.lib.rochester.edu/index.cfm?page=998> ,  Box 23, Folder 94.  So far I haven't found any evidence that the journal has been published in its entirety.

 

If you plan to try to get a copy from the U of R library, let me know.  If not, I might contact them about it myself.

 

Sorry I couldn't come up with it!

 

Lori

 

 

On Fri, Jul 25, 2014 at 8:27 AM, Campbell, Sky <sky at omtribe.org> wrote:

Wow, thank you!  I've been over Hamilton and Irvin's material up one side and down the other approximately 345,681,130 times and each time I do, I learn and understand more.  We've already transcribed their books (makes it SUPER easy to do a quick search for something!) and are in the process of transliterating them.  They paid so much attention to detail in those books that I'm hoping that his journal is the same way and that there is some good language information floating around in there.

 

I'll attach a PDF of the extracts from Hamilton's journal with the mention of "Caramonya".  It is on the second page (page 372) under the section of "Superstition of the Indians - Otter Dance".  It is a neat little blurb about how Hamilton shot a "weasel" and that Caramonya wished he hadn't shot it because if he hadn't, he could have taken the skin and made a shirt that would make him impervious to bullets.  He said if he made the shirt of one that had been shot, he'd be killed and that it needed to be choked to death instead.

 

What I hope for is more names mentioned (Hopefully with translations...Merrill has quite a few names in his diary but not translations.  I've been able to figure most of them out but there are a few that still throw me for a loop) and anything else to do with language.  In the autobiography I sent last night, Hamilton mentions how the Missourias speak in a peculiar way because they were still getting used to Otoe and he also gave his own interpretation for "Wak?nda".  So it is those kinds of things that I'm after.

 

Again, thank you!

 

Sky Campbell

Language Director

Otoe-Missouria Tribe

(580) 723-4466, ext. 111 <tel:%28580%29%20723-4466%2C%20ext.%20111> 

sky at omtribe.org

 

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Lori Stanley
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2014 12:49 AM


To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga

Importance: Low

 

Sky,

After I sent the previous email it occurred to me that the 1885 autobiography was probably not what you were looking for, but I wasn't able to check the document for a reference to "Caramonya" since I don't have access to my files right now.  You cleared up that question with your last email.

An online search has reminded me that Hamilton's original journal is in the Lewis Henry Morgan archives, and I'm pretty sure I have a copy of it.  In fact, the line about "Caramonya," the "old Indian who often visits us," sounds very familiar.  I'll check on this when I get back to Decorah in a few days.

Lori

 

On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 9:25 PM, Jimm G. GoodTracks <jgoodtracks at gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks Sky!  Great read that fills in and colors some of the early day life and scenes in the life of the people.    

 

From: Sky Campbell <mailto:sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM>  

Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 7:06 PM

To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu 

Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga

 

Thanks for the idea but unfortunately I already have that.  It isn't his journal but instead Hamilton was asked to write an autobiography.  This autobiography is great reading and is in the form of a letter but unfortunately it isn't his journal :(.

 

I'll attach it to this email just in case someone is interested.  Jimm, I believe you've seen this before but if not, happy reading! :)

 

Sky

 

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Lori Stanley
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 3:12 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga

 

Sky,
Here is the reference for the published version of Hamilton's journal:

Hamilton, William

1885    Autobiography of Reverend William Hamilton.  Transactions and Reports of the Nebraska State Historical Society 1:60-75.

 

I'm sure I have a copy and could send you a PDF, but I'm out of town for a few days.  Let me know if you get hold of it.  If not, I'll send it when I get back.

 

Lori

 

 

On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 2:19 PM, Campbell, Sky <sky at omtribe.org> wrote:

Those names are listed with "manyi" in other sources.  For example, Catlin has "Neu-mon-ya" and "Wash-ka-mon-ya" where that "manyi" can (usually) refer to "walk" or "always".  Ioway treaties has spellings like "Washcommanee" and "Ne-o-mon-ni".  What I'm thinking is that perhaps the "monga" came from looking a poor copies of old documents and that those "g" characters are most likely "y" characters.  These characters are handwritten and it only takes one little movement to "close up" a "y" at the top and make it look like a "g".

 

I've seen "Niyu Manyi" translated as walking rain, moving rain, and always raining.  I tend to lean towards that last one.

 

The name "Washka Manyi" as been translated as great walker, great marcher, and fast dancer so that one is a little tougher.  I can see how "washka" could maybe be a mash-up of "washi" (dance) and "k?tha" (fast).  But when I decided to hit up a Ponca friend about his name "Washka" (that's his legal name, not just his "Indian name"), I found out the full form of his name is "Washka Mathi" which he translated as "Stands Strong."  I know that "mathi" in Ponca/Omaha is a cognate to the Otoe-Ioway "manyi" and also that Otoes and Ioways had the form "mathi" a long time ago.  So that got me to thinking that perhaps this Ioway individual might have roughly the same name as my Ponca friend (cognate forms notwithstanding).  The only trouble with that theory is that I've never seen a term "washka" to mean "strong" like it does in Ponca.  Dorsey shows the Jiwere cognate to "washka" as "brixe" (which is the term I am familiar with).  So is this one of those instances where Otoe-Ioway had more in common with Dhegiha almost 200 years ago and "washka" was used to mean "strong" (or a similiar idea) but no longer does?  It would seem likely since some of those translations for that name have the word "great" in them along with walker or marcher.  Strong walker/strong marcher perhaps?  But without more information, this is just yet another thing for me to keep in the back of my mind until I find that bit of information that helps clear it up.  May that day come soon!

 

Sky Campbell

Language Director

Otoe-Missouria Tribe

(580) 723-4466, ext. 111 <tel:%28580%29%20723-4466%2C%20ext.%20111> 

sky at omtribe.org

 

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2014 1:15 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga

 

Sky, do we know what ?monga? means in the other names, Washkamonga and Neumonga?

 

Best,

Rory

                

 

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2014 9:28 AM
To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU
Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga

 

Greg was gracious enough to let me see the copies he was drawing from and sure enough, it looks like "monga" in the name.  But what I found interesting in that document was other familiar names...Washkamonga and Neumonga which we've seen elsewhere with the "monga" portion spelled with an "ny" instead of an "ng".  I also looked at the 1842 Ioway census and found "Caromonga" but instead it was spelled "Caramonya".  I did a quick Google search for "Caramonya" and got a couple hits on some books that had excerpts from Hamilton's journal.  He describes "Caramonya" as "an old Indian who often visits us."  Unfortunately he doesn't translate the name.  My first reaction was to think that perhaps Hamilton might be using his own orthography that he used in his books but the rest of the spelling doesn't bear that out.  I'd love to see more of Hamilton's journal to see if there are any clues in there.  Anyone know where I could get a hold of such a thing?

 

So it looks like that ending may actually be "manyi" (but perhaps not for the "ng/ny swap" that I suggested but maybe just a handwriting issue).  And it looks like both versions were written by the same person (there is the same flourish on the capital "C" in both versions of the name).

 

Council meeting image:

Caromonga.jpg

 

Ioway census image:

Caramonya.jpg

 

So if it is "Cara-" instead of "Caro-", then that can open up more possibilities perhaps.  But I'm still only coming up with ket?, kera and giro as my top suggestions for now.

 

Sky Campbell

Language Director

Otoe-Missouria Tribe

(580) 723-4466, ext. 111 <tel:%28580%29%20723-4466%2C%20ext.%20111> 

sky at omtribe.org

 

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2014 9:35 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga
Importance: Low

 

Well, going on what Jill says, the closet thing I can find is:  ?ed?na?e; ?ed?na?a  adv/prn.  that distant curvilinear object yonder; that distant land in sight.  However, I'm not comfortable that it is a good fit for "Carominga."  I don't know if the original notation was from a French or English document, and as such, cannot know to consider the phonetic value of the "C."  

 

But going with the possibility of it being "K?" as in "K?tan" (turtle), we have:   

k?tan; ket?nha; keton^a (SKN); qetan (DOR)  n.  turtle.   k?tan x?ha  n.  turtle shell.   K?tan w??i p? a???e ke,  It is said that turtle meat is good.

     k?gr?dhei?e; k?gr?dhei?e      spotted (or) sand turtle

     kehtonha (SKN)                       snapping turtle; snapper

     k?marax^?n; kem?rax^in (LWR)            snapping turtle

     k? m?rax^in ?wrinkled turtle? mud turtle

     ket?nna (LWR)                         snapping turtle; snapper

 

        But you see, the best contender is for:   

            k?ra  adj.  clear (sky).   Clear Day; Clear Sky Appears  (a personal Buffalo Clan name)  n.  K?ra T?n^in; K^?ra T?n^in.  **SEE: gith?je; clear.

            

Also, thinking about the breakup of syllables as Justin suggest, there could be a connect with: 

            rominj?  n.  island.   Rominj?^i?e(mi); Rom?nchi?e; Ir?mi?h?ji; J?rominje; Romijii?emi (DOR); r?mits? (MAX)  (a personal Buffalo Clan and Beaver Clan name)  Little Island.   Romihingu ~ Romihi?u (SKN); Romijii?emi (DOR)  (a personal Pigeon Clan name)  Island.                

 And there was maybe the "g" is really a "j" which gives only one unlikely possibility:  

 m?nje (?)(LWR); masj?  adj/v.i.  hot, warm (weather).

With the above, one could squeeze out a "Turtle Island," but, this possibility is not convincing to me.  

 

SO THEN, in appreciation to everyone's input, I have arrived full circle to my original conjecture that the name that most likely fits the documented transcription is:

 

K?raM?nge (Clearing Day All About~ Prevailing).  In this case, the "m?nge" (sitting) is used in the sense of a positional verb, saying that the clearing of the sky, was extensive over a wide area such might be view on the breathe of the open plains.  Further, such a rendering would be consistant to similar clan names.

 

I suggest one possibilty for Grey in working with his narrative is to include with the composed name, the original transcription, such as, "K?raM?nge (Clearing Day All About) [Carminga (Document Source citations)].   Unless, new evidence appears, or further information, this is the best that can be made of that name.

 

H?nhe Pi, Good Night, Buenas Noches!

 

 

 

From: Greer, Jill <mailto:Greer-J at MSSU.EDU>  

Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2014 6:22 PM

To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu 

Subject: Re: Carominga

 

Justin and Sky - 

You guys with your programming talents-  impressive!  

 

Just one question for Jimm and Greg -  if the original person who transcribed the name was French (or a mixed blood literate in French-  as was common around St. Joseph),  the first syllabie "Ca" could even be /Sa/  or /se/  rather than Key, n'est pas?   I hate to muddy the waters, but all it takes is one person to miss the cedilla and we've switched the sound totally.  These old names are so slippery, but fascinating!  

 

Best,

Jill

 

  

On Jul 18, 2014, at 8:17 PM, "Mcbride, Justin" <jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU>

 wrote:

 

When you showed me that program last year, Sky, I remember thinking, "Now, THIS is awesome!" As a guy who, for years, was asked questions like, "What's my Granddad's name mean?" on a weekly basis, only to be handed a string of indecipherable 'ah's, 'eh's, and hyphens with a few consonants mixed in for good measure, I would have relished the opportunity to see a list the possible permutations presented at once. Now, if you could just build in some phonotactic constraint logic and SQL interaction with some sort of lexical database to provide suggestions--you know, the easy stuff--you'd have the proverbial better mousetrap!  :)  Ah, it's fun to dream! 

 

By the way, the name Kke Leze was the name of one of the last living male L1 Ks speakers. -jtm

 

On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 7:34 PM, Sky Campbell <sky at legendreaders.com> wrote:

Justin,

 

I thought of that too (and even thought of turtle LOL...ke for ket?) but nothing came to mind for the rest.  We have a precedent for this which is a name listed as "Ke Gre?e" (Prairie Turtle/Spotted Turtle).  I seem to remember one or two more but can't think of them off the top of my head.

 

And thanks for pointing out the "g" possibly being the "j" sound.  That is usually one of the first things I consider but it totally slipped my mind.  Man, I really, REALLY need to finish my "character/morpheme swap" program for situations like this.

 

Sky

 

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mcbride, Justin
Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 5:46 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Carominga

 

Howdy, Jimm,

 

I wonder about the division of syllables into Caro and Monga. Is it possible that it could be Ca Romonga? I ask becasue, if it were a Kaw name, I'd think it might have something to do with kke, 'turtle,' which I'm pretty sure I've seen spelled as Ca in names before. I would also look at the r as representing either Ks y or l, and -ga part at the end (if it's not been switched, as Sky suggests, which I think is probable) as possibly representing like the Ks syllable j^e, which seems to happen fairly frequently in the names I've looked at. In short, I would expect something like kke yaNmaNj^e, which doesn't ring any bells at all in Ks. Now, I don't know much at all about IOM, lexically or phonologically--maybe this makes even less sense in IOM--but thought I just might throw that out there as food for thought. 

 

All the best,

-Justin

 

On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Sky Campbell <sky at legendreaders.com> wrote:

The "caro" portion has me thinking of a few possibilities:

 

kera (as you pointed out)

giro (happy)

 

The "monga" has me thinking of:

 

mange (lying down)

mange (chest)

womanke (easy) <-- perhaps unlikely

m?nka (medicine) <-- seems the most unlikely but I thought I'd throw it in there

 

Last is a "theory" that I have that perhaps somehow, some way, "monga" might be a form of "manyi/manye".  Considering how many examples of "ng" and "ny" being swapped out (sunge/sunye, -inge/-inye, etc.), I wonder if perhaps it might be a version of "manyi".  Especially since that word is used in so many names already and your friend noted that it appears in other names as well.  This is just speculation, of course.  Speaking of which, if they could provide examples of other names that use "monga", it might help us figure it out.

 

Sky

 

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks
Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 9:25 AM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Fw: Carominga

 

Does anyone have some thoughts to decipher the name: "Caromonga."  The last part appears to be "mange" (be in sitting position).  The first could be "kera" (cleared sky).

 

 

From: Greg Olson <mailto:caxelolson at gmail.com>  

Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 4:48 PM

To: Jimm GoodTracks <mailto:jgoodtracks at gmail.com>  

Subject: Carominga

 

Jimm, while proofing my manuscript, I came across an Ioway name I had overlooked. Caromonga. He is mentioned insome council   meetings during the 1840s. I notice the end of the name- monga -appears in other names too. 

 

Greg

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From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG  Wed Aug  6 14:34:20 2014
From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 09:34:20 -0500
Subject: Washk=?utf-8?Q?=C4=85_?=in Otoe-Missouria
Message-ID: <WED.6.AUG.2014.093420.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

A few weeks ago there was a discussion about the Ioway name "Washk? Manyi" and the given translations such as Fast Dancer and Great Walker from historical documents.  I also mentioned a Ponca friend of mine with the name Washk? Mathi which he translated as Stands Strong.  So I've been really interested in the term "washk?" and if there was any Otoe equivalent.  The closest lead I found was Dorsey giving the Jiwere equivalent of washk? as brixe in his Omaha/Ponca slips.

But poking through Dorsey's material a while ago I found this term:

nan-wa?-?e i-ra-?krin-wa-?shkan - to do his best to dodge or evade the blow, weapon, or pursuer

Then I was talking with my assistant today who is pretty knowledgeable in Osage and he mentioned in passing that Osages use "washk?" to refer to doing their best.  So I looked in Dorsey's material again and found this by itself:

nan-wa?-?e - to dodge a blow or weapon; to evade the enemy, or pursuer

So that leaves us with  i-ra-?krin-wa-?shkan which Dorsey also has a separate slip for.  Unfortunately he doesn't translate it here but he does give this phrase:

ir?krinwashkan?wi h?

Based on what I've seen so far, it looks to be a command to "do your best".  But what is really interesting is Dorsey gives this afterward:

(eq. to Dh. washkan i-g?)

So now we have a direct comparison of the Otoe "iragr? washk?" and Dhegiha "washk?".  Has anyone else seen something like this floating around their respective languages?  I'm curious what the "iragr?" is doing here and why it is omitted for its Dhegiha equivalent.  And now because of the idea of "best" it has me wondering if this term is related to "wexa" (best).

Anyone have any thoughts?  If this term does in fact refer to doing your best, then the name "Washk? Manyi" could perhaps roughly translate to "He Always Does His Best."

Sky Campbell
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
(580) 723-4466, ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org


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From jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU  Mon Aug 11 16:00:07 2014
From: jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU (Mcbride, Justin)
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2014 11:00:07 -0500
Subject: Washk=?UTF-8?Q?=C4=85_?=in Otoe-Missouria
In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E436C3E0371E19@Server6-EX.omtribe.net>
Message-ID: <MON.11.AUG.2014.110007.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Just means 'do one's best' in Dhegiha, a far as I've ever seen. It's very
common in Osage in particular; it used to be written on the back of all the
Language Dept. t-shirts.


On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 9:34 AM, Campbell, Sky <sky at omtribe.org> wrote:

> A few weeks ago there was a discussion about the Ioway name "Washk? Manyi"
> and the given translations such as Fast Dancer and Great Walker from
> historical documents.  I also mentioned a Ponca friend of mine with the
> name Washk? Mathi which he translated as Stands Strong.  So I've been
> really interested in the term "washk?" and if there was any Otoe
> equivalent.  The closest lead I found was Dorsey giving the Jiwere
> equivalent of washk? as brixe in his Omaha/Ponca slips.
>
>
>
> But poking through Dorsey's material a while ago I found this term:
>
>
>
> nan-wa?-?e i-ra-?krin-wa-?shkan - to do his best to dodge or evade the
> blow, weapon, or pursuer
>
>
>
> Then I was talking with my assistant today who is pretty knowledgeable in
> Osage and he mentioned in passing that Osages use "washk?" to refer to
> doing their best.  So I looked in Dorsey's material again and found this by
> itself:
>
>
>
> nan-wa?-?e - to dodge a blow or weapon; to evade the enemy, or pursuer
>
>
>
> So that leaves us with  i-ra-?krin-wa-?shkan which Dorsey also has a
> separate slip for.  Unfortunately he doesn't translate it here but he does
> give this phrase:
>
>
>
> ir?krinwashkan?wi h?
>
>
>
> Based on what I've seen so far, it looks to be a command to "do your
> best".  But what is really interesting is Dorsey gives this afterward:
>
>
>
> (eq. to Dh. washkan i-g?)
>
>
>
> So now we have a direct comparison of the Otoe "iragr? washk?" and Dhegiha
> "washk?".  Has anyone else seen something like this floating around their
> respective languages?  I'm curious what the "iragr?" is doing here and why
> it is omitted for its Dhegiha equivalent.  And now because of the idea of
> "best" it has me wondering if this term is related to "wexa" (best).
>
>
>
> Anyone have any thoughts?  If this term does in fact refer to doing your
> best, then the name "Washk? Manyi" could perhaps roughly translate to "He
> Always Does His Best."
>
>
>
> *Sky Campbell*
>
> Language Director
>
> Otoe-Missouria Tribe
>
> (580) 723-4466, ext. 111
>
> sky at omtribe.org
>
>
>
>   ??
> -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu
> lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com
> due to thier DMARC policies.

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From ardise at HAWAII.EDU  Mon Aug 11 18:52:07 2014
From: ardise at HAWAII.EDU (Ardis Eschenberg)
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2014 08:52:07 -1000
Subject: Washk=?utf-8?Q?=C4=85_?=in Otoe-Missouria
In-Reply-To: <53E8BC390200008E000C2402@hermes.wsc.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.11.AUG.2014.085207.1000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

In addition to ?Do one?s best,? washkoN is also often translated as ?be strong? (for example, said to one who is grieving) and is used to connote strength, such as in ?WashkoN tonga,? meaning strong or muscular.  

So, could also mean ?Walks Strong? or ?Always Strong? for the name given.


Ardis Eschenberg, Ph.D.
Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs
Windward Community College
(808) 235-7443
ardise at hawaii.edu





On Aug 11, 2014, at 7:51 AM, Catherine Rudin <carudin1 at WSC.EDU> wrote:

> Common in Omaha too.  At one time it was the UmoNhoN Nation School's sports teams cheer; maybe still is. 
> 
> >>> "Mcbride, Justin" 08/11/14 11:01 AM >>>
> Just means 'do one's best' in Dhegiha, a far as I've ever seen. It's very common in Osage in particular; it used to be written on the back of all the Language Dept. t-shirts. 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 9:34 AM, Campbell, Sky <sky at omtribe.org> wrote:
> A few weeks ago there was a discussion about the Ioway name "Washk? Manyi" and the given translations such as Fast Dancer and Great Walker from historical documents.  I also mentioned a Ponca friend of mine with the name Washk? Mathi which he translated as Stands Strong.  So I've been really interested in the term "washk?" and if there was any Otoe equivalent.  The closest lead I found was Dorsey giving the Jiwere equivalent of washk? as brixe in his Omaha/Ponca slips.
> 
>  
> 
> But poking through Dorsey's material a while ago I found this term:
> 
>  
> 
> nan-wa?-?e i-ra-?krin-wa-?shkan - to do his best to dodge or evade the blow, weapon, or pursuer
> 
>  
> 
> Then I was talking with my assistant today who is pretty knowledgeable in Osage and he mentioned in passing that Osages use "washk?" to refer to doing their best.  So I looked in Dorsey's material again and found this by itself:
> 
>  
> 
> nan-wa?-?e - to dodge a blow or weapon; to evade the enemy, or pursuer
> 
>  
> 
> So that leaves us with  i-ra-?krin-wa-?shkan which Dorsey also has a separate slip for.  Unfortunately he doesn't translate it here but he does give this phrase:
> 
>  
> 
> ir?krinwashkan?wi h?
> 
>  
> 
> Based on what I've seen so far, it looks to be a command to "do your best".  But what is really interesting is Dorsey gives this afterward:
> 
>  
> 
> (eq. to Dh. washkan i-g?)
> 
>  
> 
> So now we have a direct comparison of the Otoe "iragr? washk?" and Dhegiha "washk?".  Has anyone else seen something like this floating around their respective languages?  I'm curious what the "iragr?" is doing here and why it is omitted for its Dhegiha equivalent.  And now because of the idea of "best" it has me wondering if this term is related to "wexa" (best).
> 
>  
> 
> Anyone have any thoughts?  If this term does in fact refer to doing your best, then the name "Washk? Manyi" could perhaps roughly translate to "He Always Does His Best."
> 
>  
> 
> Sky Campbell
> 
> Language Director
> 
> Otoe-Missouria Tribe
> 
> (580) 723-4466, ext. 111
> 
> sky at omtribe.org
> 
>  
> 
> 
>   ??  
> -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies.
> 
> -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies.
> -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies.


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From carudin1 at WSC.EDU  Mon Aug 11 17:51:05 2014
From: carudin1 at WSC.EDU (Catherine Rudin)
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2014 12:51:05 -0500
Subject: Washk=?UTF-8?Q?=C4=85_?=in Otoe-Missouria
Message-ID: <MON.11.AUG.2014.125105.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Common in Omaha too.  At one time it was the UmoNhoN Nation School's
sports teams cheer; maybe still is. 

>>> "Mcbride, Justin"  08/11/14 11:01 AM >>>
Just means 'do one's best' in Dhegiha, a far as I've ever seen. It's
very common in Osage in particular; it used to be written on the back of
all the Language Dept. t-shirts. 


On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 9:34 AM, Campbell, Sky <sky at omtribe.org> wrote:
A few weeks ago there was a discussion about the Ioway name "Washk?
Manyi" and the given translations such as Fast Dancer and Great Walker
from historical documents.  I also mentioned a Ponca friend of mine with
the name Washk? Mathi which he translated as Stands Strong.  So I've
been really interested in the term "washk?" and if there was any Otoe
equivalent.  The closest lead I found was Dorsey giving the Jiwere
equivalent of washk? as brixe in his Omaha/Ponca slips.
 
But poking through Dorsey's material a while ago I found this term:
 
nan-wa?-?e i-ra-?krin-wa-?shkan - to do his best to dodge or evade the
blow, weapon, or pursuer
 
Then I was talking with my assistant today who is pretty knowledgeable
in Osage and he mentioned in passing that Osages use "washk?" to refer
to doing their best.  So I looked in Dorsey's material again and found
this by itself:
 
nan-wa?-?e - to dodge a blow or weapon; to evade the enemy, or pursuer
 
So that leaves us with  i-ra-?krin-wa-?shkan which Dorsey also has a
separate slip for.  Unfortunately he doesn't translate it here but he
does give this phrase:
 
ir?krinwashkan?wi h?
 
Based on what I've seen so far, it looks to be a command to "do your
best".  But what is really interesting is Dorsey gives this afterward:
 
(eq. to Dh. washkan i-g?)
 
So now we have a direct comparison of the Otoe "iragr? washk?" and
Dhegiha "washk?".  Has anyone else seen something like this floating
around their respective languages?  I'm curious what the "iragr?" is
doing here and why it is omitted for its Dhegiha equivalent.  And now
because of the idea of "best" it has me wondering if this term is
related to "wexa" (best).
 
Anyone have any thoughts?  If this term does in fact refer to doing your
best, then the name "Washk? Manyi" could perhaps roughly translate to
"He Always Does His Best."
 
Sky Campbell
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
(580) 723-4466, ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org
 


  ??  
--Manage your subscription at  http://listserv.unl.edu.listserv.unl.edu
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Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies.


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Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies.

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From sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM  Wed Aug 20 18:15:03 2014
From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM (Sky Campbell)
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 13:15:03 -0500
Subject: Washk=?UTF-8?Q?=C4=85_?=in Otoe-Missouria
In-Reply-To: <B53EECA7-47D0-4783-BFFE-045566589ACC@hawaii.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.20.AUG.2014.131503.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Thanks for the replies!  Sorry for the late reply.  Been having a few computer issues on this end and I'd hoped to be able to do more effective digging before I responded.  But my problems might not be fixed for another week (waiting on a part) so I thought I'd go ahead and respond anyway.

 

The Walks Strong or Always Strong definitely fits with what I am thinking for that name.  However I'd feel much better about that if I found more info on it.  Perhaps Dorsey has a few more "washk?/iragr? washk?" terms attached to other terms in his vocabulary slips.  Still, old translations of Great Walker or Great Marcher have me thinking that that is correct.  However I still can't ignore the old translation of Fast Dancer which I can JUST see could be formed out of Washk? Manyi (wasi/washi (dance) + k?ntha (fast) + manyi (always)).  While I am leaning heavily towards Always Strong (and other similar translations), there is the possibility that Fast Dancer could also be correct.  And I'm not one to declare a "winner" in a situation like this.  My determination is irrelevant.  The term/name means what it means and so long as there is a possibility of another translation, I am loathe to say "Yep, this is what it means."  I like to qualify things like that with "This is what it looks like it says, however it could also mean this..."  That's a hard line to walk in a field that likes answers to this sort of thing LOL.

 

But again, thanks for the replies and if anyone has any other information, I'd love to hear it.

 

Sky

 

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Ardis Eschenberg
Sent: Monday, August 11, 2014 1:52 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Washk? in Otoe-Missouria

 

In addition to ?Do one?s best,? washkoN is also often translated as ?be strong? (for example, said to one who is grieving) and is used to connote strength, such as in ?WashkoN tonga,? meaning strong or muscular.  

 

So, could also mean ?Walks Strong? or ?Always Strong? for the name given.

 

 

Ardis Eschenberg, Ph.D.

Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs

Windward Community College

(808) 235-7443

ardise at hawaii.edu

 

 

 

 

On Aug 11, 2014, at 7:51 AM, Catherine Rudin <carudin1 at WSC.EDU> wrote:





Common in Omaha too.  At one time it was the UmoNhoN Nation School's sports teams cheer; maybe still is. 

>>> "Mcbride, Justin" 08/11/14 11:01 AM >>>

Just means 'do one's best' in Dhegiha, a far as I've ever seen. It's very common in Osage in particular; it used to be written on the back of all the Language Dept. t-shirts. 

 

On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 9:34 AM, Campbell, Sky <sky at omtribe.org> wrote:

A few weeks ago there was a discussion about the Ioway name "Washk? Manyi" and the given translations such as Fast Dancer and Great Walker from historical documents.  I also mentioned a Ponca friend of mine with the name Washk? Mathi which he translated as Stands Strong.  So I've been really interested in the term "washk?" and if there was any Otoe equivalent.  The closest lead I found was Dorsey giving the Jiwere equivalent of washk? as brixe in his Omaha/Ponca slips.

 

But poking through Dorsey's material a while ago I found this term:

 

nan-wa?-?e i-ra-?krin-wa-?shkan - to do his best to dodge or evade the blow, weapon, or pursuer

 

Then I was talking with my assistant today who is pretty knowledgeable in Osage and he mentioned in passing that Osages use "washk?" to refer to doing their best.  So I looked in Dorsey's material again and found this by itself:

 

nan-wa?-?e - to dodge a blow or weapon; to evade the enemy, or pursuer

 

So that leaves us with  i-ra-?krin-wa-?shkan which Dorsey also has a separate slip for.  Unfortunately he doesn't translate it here but he does give this phrase:

 

ir?krinwashkan?wi h?

 

Based on what I've seen so far, it looks to be a command to "do your best".  But what is really interesting is Dorsey gives this afterward:

 

(eq. to Dh. washkan i-g?)

 

So now we have a direct comparison of the Otoe "iragr? washk?" and Dhegiha "washk?".  Has anyone else seen something like this floating around their respective languages?  I'm curious what the "iragr?" is doing here and why it is omitted for its Dhegiha equivalent.  And now because of the idea of "best" it has me wondering if this term is related to "wexa" (best).

 

Anyone have any thoughts?  If this term does in fact refer to doing your best, then the name "Washk? Manyi" could perhaps roughly translate to "He Always Does His Best."

 

Sky Campbell

Language Director

Otoe-Missouria Tribe

(580) 723-4466, ext. 111 <tel:%28580%29%20723-4466%2C%20ext.%20111> 

sky at omtribe.org

 


  ??  

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From mary.marino at USASK.CA  Mon Aug 25 20:42:35 2014
From: mary.marino at USASK.CA (Mary C Marino)
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 14:42:35 -0600
Subject: Linguist List
Message-ID: <MON.25.AUG.2014.144235.0600.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Hello fellow Siouanists

Is anyone else having trouble subscribing to Linguist List?  They have 
reorganized their computer system and appear to have lost my 
subscription.  My attempts to resubscribe get no response.  It seems 
impossible to leave a message about this as well.  Do any of you know 
anything about this?

Best
Mary Marino

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From mateja.schuck at GMAIL.COM  Mon Aug 25 20:52:12 2014
From: mateja.schuck at GMAIL.COM (Mateja Schuck)
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 15:52:12 -0500
Subject: Linguist List
In-Reply-To: <53FB9FBB.8010809@usask.ca>
Message-ID: <MON.25.AUG.2014.155212.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Hi Mary (and everyone),

I work for LINGUIST List and while I am only on the book review side of
things, I can tell you that your subscription problems are very likely due
to their having to switch servers.  They have been working day and night to
get everything in working order again and so can only assume this is why
response time is so regrettably slow.  I'll pass along this message to one
of the IT people that I know and see if they can make sure to respond to
your messages.

Best,

Mateja


On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 3:42 PM, Mary C Marino <mary.marino at usask.ca> wrote:

> Hello fellow Siouanists
>
> Is anyone else having trouble subscribing to Linguist List?  They have
> reorganized their computer system and appear to have lost my subscription.
> My attempts to resubscribe get no response.  It seems impossible to leave a
> message about this as well.  Do any of you know anything about this?
>
> Best
> Mary Marino
>
> --
> Manage your subscription at  http://listserv.unl.edu.
> listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com,
> AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies.
>

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From carudin1 at WSC.EDU  Mon Aug 25 21:00:41 2014
From: carudin1 at WSC.EDU (Catherine Rudin)
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 16:00:41 -0500
Subject: Linguist List
In-Reply-To: <53FB9FBB.8010809@usask.ca>
Message-ID: <MON.25.AUG.2014.160041.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

I haven't had trouble with Linguist List, but I know they've been reorganizing and moving, so it's maybe not surprising that there are some mess-ups.  If it doesn't solve itself soon, I would contact Damir Cavar personally.  He's just moved to Indiana University from Michigan but it should be easy enough to find him (by phoning the IU Linguistics dept., if nothing else).  

Good luck --
Catherine

>>> Mary C Marino <mary.marino at USASK.CA> 08/25/14 3:44 PM >>>
Hello fellow Siouanists

Is anyone else having trouble subscribing to Linguist List?  They have 
reorganized their computer system and appear to have lost my 
subscription.  My attempts to resubscribe get no response.  It seems 
impossible to leave a message about this as well.  Do any of you know 
anything about this?

Best
Mary Marino

--
Manage your subscription at  http://listserv.unl.edu.
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From mary.marino at USASK.CA  Mon Aug 25 21:00:52 2014
From: mary.marino at USASK.CA (Mary C Marino)
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 15:00:52 -0600
Subject: Linguist List
In-Reply-To: <CANfvM5LbjAJOq7JV42um1WSM2MnDEiZGmAfz4S4esZWQhBURvQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MON.25.AUG.2014.150052.0600.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Thanks Mateja -- I do hope it gets straightened out.

Mary

On 25/08/2014 2:52 PM, Mateja Schuck wrote:
> Hi Mary (and everyone),
>
> I work for LINGUIST List and while I am only on the book review side 
> of things, I can tell you that your subscription problems are very 
> likely due to their having to switch servers.  They have been working 
> day and night to get everything in working order again and so can only 
> assume this is why response time is so regrettably slow.  I'll pass 
> along this message to one of the IT people that I know and see if they 
> can make sure to respond to your messages.
>
> Best,
>
> Mateja
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 3:42 PM, Mary C Marino <mary.marino at usask.ca 
> <mailto:mary.marino at usask.ca>> wrote:
>
>     Hello fellow Siouanists
>
>     Is anyone else having trouble subscribing to Linguist List? They
>     have reorganized their computer system and appear to have lost my
>     subscription.  My attempts to resubscribe get no response.  It
>     seems impossible to leave a message about this as well.  Do any of
>     you know anything about this?
>
>     Best
>     Mary Marino
>
>     --
>     Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu.
>     listserv.unl.edu <http://listserv.unl.edu> lists do not accept
>     incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier
>     DMARC policies.
>
>
> -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. 
> listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, 
> AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. 


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