From stanleyl at LUTHER.EDU Sat Feb 1 14:23:13 2014 From: stanleyl at LUTHER.EDU (Lori Stanley) Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2014 08:23:13 -0600 Subject: MARK In-Reply-To: <648EA97C82564942966A950E5E5BAD79956F7D5F@SDSU-EX03.jacks.local> Message-ID: This is heartbreaking news. Mark, Donna, and family will certainly be in my thoughts and prayers. Lori On Wed, Jan 29, 2014 at 4:39 PM, Danker, Kathleen < Kathleen.Danker at sdstate.edu> wrote: > It's sad to hear that Mark and his family are going through such hard > times. My thoughts and prayers are with them. > > K.D. Danker > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of > *Jimm G. GoodTracks > *Sent:* Monday, January 27, 2014 3:44 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* MARK > > > > From: Vida Stabbler at Macy, NE: > > > > Hi Jimm, my Nephew Uthixide Mark's leukemia is back and fierce at that. > He's been on chemo and on leave from work. > > > > The leukemia has spread to spine, brain and bone marrow. Needless to say, > there is great sadness coming along. He is doing radiation and will start > chemo very soon. I sat with him and Donna at UNMC - Omaha yesterday. I will > share your thoughts with him....makes him smile to hear from family and > friends. > > > > It would be good for the list to acknowledge him and that we stand with > him in heart and prayer as he travels this difficult journey, that he has > already traveled. > > > > Jimm > -- Lori A. Stanley Professor of Anthropology Luther College 700 College Drive Decorah, Iowa 52101 563-387-1283 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kathleendshea at GMAIL.COM Fri Feb 14 04:24:29 2014 From: kathleendshea at GMAIL.COM (Kathleen D. Shea) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2014 20:24:29 -0800 Subject: MARK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm also very sorry to hear that Mark and his family are having such a hard time. My heart goes out to them, and I hope they know that we all care and are thinking about them. Mark has been fighting this battle for a long time and has always come out on top. Let's hope that's the case this time, too. I've always admired Mark's persistence, can-do attitude, and sense of humor in dealing with any obstacles in his way, and I'm sure that that is what has helped him to persevere and accomplish so much in the long run. With warm wishes and hope for the best, Kathy Shea Sent from my iPad > On Feb 1, 2014, at 6:23 AM, Lori Stanley wrote: > > This is heartbreaking news. Mark, Donna, and family will certainly be in my thoughts and prayers. > > Lori > > >> On Wed, Jan 29, 2014 at 4:39 PM, Danker, Kathleen wrote: >> It’s sad to hear that Mark and his family are going through such hard times. My thoughts and prayers are with them. >> >> K.D. Danker >> >> >> >> From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks >> Sent: Monday, January 27, 2014 3:44 PM >> To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >> Subject: MARK >> >> >> >> From: Vida Stabbler at Macy, NE: >> >> >> >> Hi Jimm, my Nephew Uthixide Mark's leukemia is back and fierce at that. He's been on chemo and on leave from work. >> >> >> >> The leukemia has spread to spine, brain and bone marrow. Needless to say, there is great sadness coming along. He is doing radiation and will start chemo very soon. I sat with him and Donna at UNMC - Omaha yesterday. I will share your thoughts with him....makes him smile to hear from family and friends. >> >> >> >> It would be good for the list to acknowledge him and that we stand with him in heart and prayer as he travels this difficult journey, that he has already traveled. >> >> >> >> Jimm >> > > > > -- > Lori A. Stanley > Professor of Anthropology > Luther College > 700 College Drive > Decorah, Iowa 52101 > 563-387-1283 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mawakuni-swetland2 at UNL.EDU Fri Feb 14 18:47:18 2014 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at UNL.EDU (Mark Awakuni-Swetland) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2014 18:47:18 +0000 Subject: Siouan list management team Message-ID: Hello all, This is Rory typing. I'm with Mark in his office right now, and we are working out how to manage the Siouan list going forward. Mark is somewhat visually impaired at present, and can't do the typing stuff, but otherwise is very much on the ball. Mark: Due to health issues (being practically blind), I want to make sure list functions are not impaired. List members (Rory Larson and Loren Frerichs) have agreed/volunteered/stepped forward to assist. Now we have a UNL-based management team. We will figure out a way to contact us. Rory: This morning I met with Loren Frerichs, a former Omaha student of ours and a computer guru with godly powers over the listserv. He made the two of us co-owners, along with Mark, over the Siouan list. So in the future, either of us should also work for setting up new accounts, etc. Mark: We will go through all pending requests and act on them. If we fail to find your request, or your students' request, give us a shout! Mark and Rory Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. Associate Professor Anthropology & Ethnic Studies Native American Studies University of Nebraska Oldfather Hall 841 Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 Office: 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 http://omahalanguage.unl.edu http://omahaponca.unl.edu "Tenixa uqpatha egoN", a biama winisi akHa. Lincoln Gem and Mineral Club, Inc. Secretary (2013, 2014) Post Office Box 5342 Lincoln, NE 68505-0342 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Fri Feb 14 19:27:38 2014 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm G. GoodTracks) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2014 13:27:38 -0600 Subject: Siouan list management team In-Reply-To: <6cc03dc192024fc0a69d57e42b2b90b8@BY2PR08MB240.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Pi dana ke. Everthing can always become better. Late IOM Elders (were one in saying): Itun Wakanda, irogre broge uxre mañi hñe ke (First God, next everything will continue to follow). Mark, there are so many of us that are one with you in heart, mind and prayer. From: Mark Awakuni-Swetland Sent: Friday, February 14, 2014 12:47 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Siouan list management team Hello all, This is Rory typing. I’m with Mark in his office right now, and we are working out how to manage the Siouan list going forward. Mark is somewhat visually impaired at present, and can’t do the typing stuff, but otherwise is very much on the ball. Mark: Due to health issues (being practically blind), I want to make sure list functions are not impaired. List members (Rory Larson and Loren Frerichs) have agreed/volunteered/stepped forward to assist. Now we have a UNL-based management team. We will figure out a way to contact us. Rory: This morning I met with Loren Frerichs, a former Omaha student of ours and a computer guru with godly powers over the listserv. He made the two of us co-owners, along with Mark, over the Siouan list. So in the future, either of us should also work for setting up new accounts, etc. Mark: We will go through all pending requests and act on them. If we fail to find your request, or your students’ request, give us a shout! Mark and Rory Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. Associate Professor Anthropology & Ethnic Studies Native American Studies University of Nebraska Oldfather Hall 841 Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 Office: 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 http://omahalanguage.unl.edu http://omahaponca.unl.edu “Tenixa uqpatha egoN”, a biama winisi akHa. Lincoln Gem and Mineral Club, Inc. Secretary (2013, 2014) Post Office Box 5342 Lincoln, NE 68505-0342 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From CaRudin1 at WSC.EDU Fri Feb 14 19:24:15 2014 From: CaRudin1 at WSC.EDU (Catherine Rudin) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2014 13:24:15 -0600 Subject: Siouan list management team In-Reply-To: <6cc03dc192024fc0a69d57e42b2b90b8@BY2PR08MB240.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Thanks for making it work, guys! I'm happy to hear Mark is up to hanging out in the office, and shaking my head over how typical it is that he's thinking about helping the rest of us out instead of focusing on himself. Hang in there, Mark. Lots of love coming your way from the whole list, I'm sure. Catherine >>> Mark Awakuni-Swetland 2/14/2014 12:47 PM >>> Hello all, This is Rory typing. I’m with Mark in his office right now, and we are working out how to manage the Siouan list going forward. Mark is somewhat visually impaired at present, and can’t do the typing stuff, but otherwise is very much on the ball. Mark: Due to health issues (being practically blind), I want to make sure list functions are not impaired. List members (Rory Larson and Loren Frerichs) have agreed/volunteered/stepped forward to assist. Now we have a UNL-based management team. We will figure out a way to contact us. Rory: This morning I met with Loren Frerichs, a former Omaha student of ours and a computer guru with godly powers over the listserv. He made the two of us co-owners, along with Mark, over the Siouan list. So in the future, either of us should also work for setting up new accounts, etc. Mark: We will go through all pending requests and act on them. If we fail to find your request, or your students’ request, give us a shout! Mark and Rory Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. Associate Professor Anthropology & Ethnic Studies Native American Studies University of Nebraska Oldfather Hall 841 Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 Office: 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 http://omahalanguage.unl.edu http://omahaponca.unl.edu “Tenixa uqpatha egoN”, a biama winisi akHa. Lincoln Gem and Mineral Club, Inc. Secretary (2013, 2014) Post Office Box 5342 Lincoln, NE 68505-0342 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mary.marino at USASK.CA Fri Feb 14 19:35:19 2014 From: mary.marino at USASK.CA (Mary C Marino) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2014 13:35:19 -0600 Subject: Siouan list management team In-Reply-To: <52FE18FF0200008E000AA580@hermes.wsc.edu> Message-ID: Absolutely! Mary On 14/02/2014 1:24 PM, Catherine Rudin wrote: > Thanks for making it work, guys! > I'm happy to hear Mark is up to hanging out in the office, and shaking > my head over how typical it is that he's thinking about helping the > rest of us out instead of focusing on himself. Hang in there, Mark. > Lots of love coming your way from the whole list, I'm sure. > Catherine > > >>> Mark Awakuni-Swetland 2/14/2014 12:47 > PM >>> > > Hello all, > > This is Rory typing. I’m with Mark in his office right now, and we > are working out how to manage the Siouan list going forward. Mark is > somewhat visually impaired at present, and can’t do the typing stuff, > but otherwise is very much on the ball. > > Mark: Due to health issues (being practically blind), I want to make > sure list functions are not impaired. List members (Rory Larson and > Loren Frerichs) have agreed/volunteered/stepped forward to assist. > Now we have a UNL-based management team. We will figure out a way to > contact us. > > Rory: This morning I met with Loren Frerichs, a former Omaha student > of ours and a computer guru with godly powers over the listserv. He > made the two of us co-owners, along with Mark, over the Siouan list. > So in the future, either of us should also work for setting up new > accounts, etc. > > Mark: We will go through all pending requests and act on them. If we > fail to find your request, or your students’ request, give us a shout! > > Mark and Rory > > Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. > > Associate Professor > > Anthropology & Ethnic Studies > > Native American Studies > > University of Nebraska > > Oldfather Hall 841 > > Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 > > Office: 402-472-3455 > > FAX: 402-472-9642 > > http://omahalanguage.unl.edu > > http://omahaponca.unl.edu > > “Tenixa uqpatha egoN”, a biama winisi akHa. > > Lincoln Gem and Mineral Club, Inc. > > Secretary (2013, 2014) > > Post Office Box 5342 > > Lincoln, NE 68505-0342 > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Fri Feb 14 21:30:01 2014 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Greer, Jill) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2014 21:30:01 +0000 Subject: Siouan list management team In-Reply-To: <9B67988288D34C06B149A725EAD21208@JGAsusPC> Message-ID: Aloha! Prayers and best wishes, this time from an Ioway gentleman who asked me to tell you his prayers and good thoughts were coming your way. He didn’t know you personally, but had read your book on Omaha sacred traditions, and appreciated your respectful and humble attitude as the author. Your careful scholarship is meaningful to so many people. Ida manyi ho, Wakhanda, ‘(Please) Be here among us, God! ‘ as the late Rev. Arthur Lightfoot so beautifully sang the verse of a NAC song in Jiwere-Baxoje. Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks Sent: Friday, February 14, 2014 1:28 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Siouan list management team Pi dana ke. Everthing can always become better. Late IOM Elders (were one in saying): Itun Wakanda, irogre broge uxre mañi hñe ke (First God, next everything will continue to follow). Mark, there are so many of us that are one with you in heart, mind and prayer. From: Mark Awakuni-Swetland Sent: Friday, February 14, 2014 12:47 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Siouan list management team Hello all, This is Rory typing. I’m with Mark in his office right now, and we are working out how to manage the Siouan list going forward. Mark is somewhat visually impaired at present, and can’t do the typing stuff, but otherwise is very much on the ball. Mark: Due to health issues (being practically blind), I want to make sure list functions are not impaired. List members (Rory Larson and Loren Frerichs) have agreed/volunteered/stepped forward to assist. Now we have a UNL-based management team. We will figure out a way to contact us. Rory: This morning I met with Loren Frerichs, a former Omaha student of ours and a computer guru with godly powers over the listserv. He made the two of us co-owners, along with Mark, over the Siouan list. So in the future, either of us should also work for setting up new accounts, etc. Mark: We will go through all pending requests and act on them. If we fail to find your request, or your students’ request, give us a shout! Mark and Rory Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. Associate Professor Anthropology & Ethnic Studies Native American Studies University of Nebraska Oldfather Hall 841 Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 Office: 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 http://omahalanguage.unl.edu http://omahaponca.unl.edu “Tenixa uqpatha egoN”, a biama winisi akHa. Lincoln Gem and Mineral Club, Inc. Secretary (2013, 2014) Post Office Box 5342 Lincoln, NE 68505-0342 This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Thu Feb 20 20:42:16 2014 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2014 14:42:16 -0600 Subject: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives In-Reply-To: <26e9ae016dc2417aae13d26d9148f907@DM2PR08MB525.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Hi Rory, Thanks for your two cents. I think that that second ába is the actual verb e 'say' with the non-continuative marker -be, which is then ablauted before dan 'then'. So that leaves just the first abá that's really in question as to its supposed dual usage of article and quotative. But examples of this dual usage abound in the Kaw texts with both articles akhá and abá. Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 1:50 PM, Rory Larson wrote: > Hi Dave, > > > > In Omaha and Ponca, the corresponding article is amá, where you have abá. > As with Kaw, it tends to imply 'moving/absent'. But we also have another > particle, apparently pronounced the same way, coming at the end of the > sentence, that implies that the foregoing is hearsay rather than solid > fact. It can stand by itself, or it can be coupled with the 'allegedly' > particle bi to make the common ending for 3rd person hearsay action, > biama. > > > > I notice the accent changes to the first syllable in the second case of > your example. I wonder if that could be underlyingly a-aba in that case? > The first would be the ablauted version of 'he said it', followed by either > the Old Man's article abá or a 'hearsay' particle as in OP. One problem > with that would be that the 'hearsay' amá in OP shouldn't cause a preceding > verb to ablaut. > > > > My $0.02. > > > > Best, > > Rory > > > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of > *David Kaufman > *Sent:* Thursday, February 20, 2014 1:30 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU > *Subject:* Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives > > > > Hi all, > > > > I have a question re: a curious structure in Kaw, and whether anything > like it occurs in other Dhegihan or even non-Dhegihan Siouan languages. > The structure involves the articles akhá and abá, used for subjects in Kaw > and usually translated 'the', the first being roughly for > 'standing/sitting' and the other for 'moving/absent'. However, in Kaw, > these subject articles also somehow seem to have become used as quotatives, > or 's/he said.' Here is an example sentence with gloss: > > > > *Icíkitanga abá, "Anyáxtaga-édan," ába-dan, nanstábe.* > > Old.Man said bite.me-then said-then kicked.him > > The Old Man said, "Then bite me," and he kicked him. > > > > So abá, which is normally used for 'moving' subjects and is usually > translated 'the', is now being used for 's/he said.' > > > > Any thoughts on this, esp. from other Dhegihan perspectives, or other > Siouan languages that might have some similar usage? > > > > Thanks! > > > > > David Kaufman > > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Thu Feb 20 19:50:20 2014 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2014 19:50:20 +0000 Subject: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Dave, In Omaha and Ponca, the corresponding article is amá, where you have abá. As with Kaw, it tends to imply 'moving/absent'. But we also have another particle, apparently pronounced the same way, coming at the end of the sentence, that implies that the foregoing is hearsay rather than solid fact. It can stand by itself, or it can be coupled with the 'allegedly' particle bi to make the common ending for 3rd person hearsay action, biama. I notice the accent changes to the first syllable in the second case of your example. I wonder if that could be underlyingly a-aba in that case? The first would be the ablauted version of 'he said it', followed by either the Old Man's article abá or a 'hearsay' particle as in OP. One problem with that would be that the 'hearsay' amá in OP shouldn't cause a preceding verb to ablaut. My $0.02. Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of David Kaufman Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 1:30 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives Hi all, I have a question re: a curious structure in Kaw, and whether anything like it occurs in other Dhegihan or even non-Dhegihan Siouan languages. The structure involves the articles akhá and abá, used for subjects in Kaw and usually translated 'the', the first being roughly for 'standing/sitting' and the other for 'moving/absent'. However, in Kaw, these subject articles also somehow seem to have become used as quotatives, or 's/he said.' Here is an example sentence with gloss: Icíkitanga abá, "Anyáxtaga-édan," ába-dan, nanstábe. Old.Man said bite.me-then said-then kicked.him The Old Man said, "Then bite me," and he kicked him. So abá, which is normally used for 'moving' subjects and is usually translated 'the', is now being used for 's/he said.' Any thoughts on this, esp. from other Dhegihan perspectives, or other Siouan languages that might have some similar usage? Thanks! David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Thu Feb 20 19:29:58 2014 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2014 13:29:58 -0600 Subject: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives Message-ID: Hi all, I have a question re: a curious structure in Kaw, and whether anything like it occurs in other Dhegihan or even non-Dhegihan Siouan languages. The structure involves the articles akhá and abá, used for subjects in Kaw and usually translated 'the', the first being roughly for 'standing/sitting' and the other for 'moving/absent'. However, in Kaw, these subject articles also somehow seem to have become used as quotatives, or 's/he said.' Here is an example sentence with gloss: *Icíkitanga abá, "Anyáxtaga-édan," ába-dan, nanstábe.* Old.Man said bite.me-then said-then kicked.him The Old Man said, "Then bite me," and he kicked him. So abá, which is normally used for 'moving' subjects and is usually translated 'the', is now being used for 's/he said.' Any thoughts on this, esp. from other Dhegihan perspectives, or other Siouan languages that might have some similar usage? Thanks! David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU Thu Feb 20 20:59:45 2014 From: jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU (Mcbride, Justin) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2014 14:59:45 -0600 Subject: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives In-Reply-To: <26e9ae016dc2417aae13d26d9148f907@DM2PR08MB525.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: For what it's worth, I believe that what appears to be a second token of aba in the example, aba-daN is actually a different type altogether. In this case, I think it's a case of the verb e(e), 'to say', plus the -(a)be completive aspect marker plus the conjunction -(a)daN, 'and' [e(e)-(a)be-(a)daN > aba-daN]. If so, then, that one really is just 's/he said and,' and the first one is actually the subject marker. But that's not to say that there aren't other examples of the quotative use of subject markers in Ks, even within the same text. Here's an example of quotative akHa: iccikkitaNga akha oo aNs^i waali miNkHe akHa. The Old Man said, "Oh, I'm getting fat." This case is much clearer to my way of thinking because there are two verbal auxiliaries marking the same state (in this case, at rest) back-to-back, one of which refers to 1st person (miNkHe, part of the quotation), and one 3rd person (akHa, marks quotation). It's curious to note that in the audio for this, the speaker laughs after miNkHe and then almost catches her breath before saying akHa, which would indicate to me that she felt it was essential for concluding the sentence. It's interesting to me in that it seems that the entire quoted clause is acting almost like a verb following the canonical pattern (subject) SUBJ (verb) AUX, where SUBJ and AUX match shape in the continuative aspect, as in s^idoz^iNga akHa ghaage akHa, 'the boy is crying.' -jtm On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 1:50 PM, Rory Larson wrote: > Hi Dave, > > > > In Omaha and Ponca, the corresponding article is amá, where you have abá. > As with Kaw, it tends to imply 'moving/absent'. But we also have another > particle, apparently pronounced the same way, coming at the end of the > sentence, that implies that the foregoing is hearsay rather than solid > fact. It can stand by itself, or it can be coupled with the 'allegedly' > particle bi to make the common ending for 3rd person hearsay action, > biama. > > > > I notice the accent changes to the first syllable in the second case of > your example. I wonder if that could be underlyingly a-aba in that case? > The first would be the ablauted version of 'he said it', followed by either > the Old Man's article abá or a 'hearsay' particle as in OP. One problem > with that would be that the 'hearsay' amá in OP shouldn't cause a preceding > verb to ablaut. > > > > My $0.02. > > > > Best, > > Rory > > > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of > *David Kaufman > *Sent:* Thursday, February 20, 2014 1:30 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU > *Subject:* Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives > > > > Hi all, > > > > I have a question re: a curious structure in Kaw, and whether anything > like it occurs in other Dhegihan or even non-Dhegihan Siouan languages. > The structure involves the articles akhá and abá, used for subjects in Kaw > and usually translated 'the', the first being roughly for > 'standing/sitting' and the other for 'moving/absent'. However, in Kaw, > these subject articles also somehow seem to have become used as quotatives, > or 's/he said.' Here is an example sentence with gloss: > > > > *Icíkitanga abá, "Anyáxtaga-édan," ába-dan, nanstábe.* > > Old.Man said bite.me-then said-then kicked.him > > The Old Man said, "Then bite me," and he kicked him. > > > > So abá, which is normally used for 'moving' subjects and is usually > translated 'the', is now being used for 's/he said.' > > > > Any thoughts on this, esp. from other Dhegihan perspectives, or other > Siouan languages that might have some similar usage? > > > > Thanks! > > > > > David Kaufman > > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Thu Feb 20 22:15:46 2014 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2014 16:15:46 -0600 Subject: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Justin, The mystery may perhaps be solved here. I looked at Quintero's Osage Dictionary and she has aakxa 'they say, they were saying' as a "postverbal singular or plural marker of reported information deriving from person(s) who is/are present and not moving" < ee 'say' + akxa 'CONT' (p. 3), and she has aapa as 'they say, are saying' indicating that "information in the sentence is or was reported by another or others" < ee 'say' + apa 'CONT' (p. 4). If this same is the case in Kaw, then it appears we may be dealing with two homographs as written, but would actually vary by length: aabá (ee + abá) 'said (moving)' and aakhá (ee + akhá) 'said (stationary)'. Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 2:59 PM, Mcbride, Justin < jtmcbri at ostatemail.okstate.edu> wrote: > For what it's worth, I believe that what appears to be a second token of > aba in the example, aba-daN is actually a different type altogether. In > this case, I think it's a case of the verb e(e), 'to say', plus the -(a)be > completive aspect marker plus the conjunction -(a)daN, 'and' > [e(e)-(a)be-(a)daN > aba-daN]. If so, then, that one really is just 's/he > said and,' and the first one is actually the subject marker. But that's not > to say that there aren't other examples of the quotative use of subject > markers in Ks, even within the same text. Here's an example of quotative > akHa: > > iccikkitaNga akha oo aNs^i waali miNkHe akHa. > The Old Man said, "Oh, I'm getting fat." > > This case is much clearer to my way of thinking because there are two > verbal auxiliaries marking the same state (in this case, at rest) > back-to-back, one of which refers to 1st person (miNkHe, part of the > quotation), and one 3rd person (akHa, marks quotation). It's curious to > note that in the audio for this, the speaker laughs after miNkHe and then > almost catches her breath before saying akHa, which would indicate to me > that she felt it was essential for concluding the sentence. It's > interesting to me in that it seems that the entire quoted clause is acting > almost like a verb following the canonical pattern (subject) SUBJ (verb) > AUX, where SUBJ and AUX match shape in the continuative aspect, as in > s^idoz^iNga akHa ghaage akHa, 'the boy is crying.' > > -jtm > > > On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 1:50 PM, Rory Larson wrote: > >> Hi Dave, >> >> >> >> In Omaha and Ponca, the corresponding article is amá, where you have >> abá. As with Kaw, it tends to imply 'moving/absent'. But we also have >> another particle, apparently pronounced the same way, coming at the end of >> the sentence, that implies that the foregoing is hearsay rather than solid >> fact. It can stand by itself, or it can be coupled with the 'allegedly' >> particle bi to make the common ending for 3rd person hearsay action, >> biama. >> >> >> >> I notice the accent changes to the first syllable in the second case of >> your example. I wonder if that could be underlyingly a-aba in that case? >> The first would be the ablauted version of 'he said it', followed by either >> the Old Man's article abá or a 'hearsay' particle as in OP. One problem >> with that would be that the 'hearsay' amá in OP shouldn't cause a preceding >> verb to ablaut. >> >> >> >> My $0.02. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Rory >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf >> Of *David Kaufman >> *Sent:* Thursday, February 20, 2014 1:30 PM >> *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU >> *Subject:* Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives >> >> >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> I have a question re: a curious structure in Kaw, and whether anything >> like it occurs in other Dhegihan or even non-Dhegihan Siouan languages. >> The structure involves the articles akhá and abá, used for subjects in Kaw >> and usually translated 'the', the first being roughly for >> 'standing/sitting' and the other for 'moving/absent'. However, in Kaw, >> these subject articles also somehow seem to have become used as quotatives, >> or 's/he said.' Here is an example sentence with gloss: >> >> >> >> *Icíkitanga abá, "Anyáxtaga-édan," ába-dan, nanstábe.* >> >> Old.Man said bite.me-then said-then kicked.him >> >> The Old Man said, "Then bite me," and he kicked him. >> >> >> >> So abá, which is normally used for 'moving' subjects and is usually >> translated 'the', is now being used for 's/he said.' >> >> >> >> Any thoughts on this, esp. from other Dhegihan perspectives, or other >> Siouan languages that might have some similar usage? >> >> >> >> Thanks! >> >> >> >> >> David Kaufman >> >> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >> >> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU Thu Feb 20 22:31:25 2014 From: jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU (Mcbride, Justin) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2014 16:31:25 -0600 Subject: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: That's not a very satisfying solution, though, because no other e-final verbs in Ks undergo ablaut with aba or akHa. At least none that I can think of. Maybe there are in Os; I'm not sure. I would suspect that ol' Occam would just say that akHa and aba in Os-Ks also have a quotative function--in addition to their hundreds of other functions! On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 4:15 PM, David Kaufman wrote: > Hi Justin, > > The mystery may perhaps be solved here. I looked at Quintero's Osage > Dictionary and she has aakxa 'they say, they were saying' as a "postverbal > singular or plural marker of reported information deriving from person(s) > who is/are present and not moving" < ee 'say' + akxa 'CONT' (p. 3), and she > has aapa as 'they say, are saying' indicating that "information in the > sentence is or was reported by another or others" < ee 'say' + apa 'CONT' > (p. 4). > > If this same is the case in Kaw, then it appears we may be dealing with > two homographs as written, but would actually vary by length: aabá (ee + > abá) 'said (moving)' and aakhá (ee + akhá) 'said (stationary)'. > > Dave > > David Kaufman > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > > On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 2:59 PM, Mcbride, Justin < > jtmcbri at ostatemail.okstate.edu> wrote: > >> For what it's worth, I believe that what appears to be a second token of >> aba in the example, aba-daN is actually a different type altogether. In >> this case, I think it's a case of the verb e(e), 'to say', plus the -(a)be >> completive aspect marker plus the conjunction -(a)daN, 'and' >> [e(e)-(a)be-(a)daN > aba-daN]. If so, then, that one really is just 's/he >> said and,' and the first one is actually the subject marker. But that's not >> to say that there aren't other examples of the quotative use of subject >> markers in Ks, even within the same text. Here's an example of quotative >> akHa: >> >> iccikkitaNga akha oo aNs^i waali miNkHe akHa. >> The Old Man said, "Oh, I'm getting fat." >> >> This case is much clearer to my way of thinking because there are two >> verbal auxiliaries marking the same state (in this case, at rest) >> back-to-back, one of which refers to 1st person (miNkHe, part of the >> quotation), and one 3rd person (akHa, marks quotation). It's curious to >> note that in the audio for this, the speaker laughs after miNkHe and then >> almost catches her breath before saying akHa, which would indicate to me >> that she felt it was essential for concluding the sentence. It's >> interesting to me in that it seems that the entire quoted clause is acting >> almost like a verb following the canonical pattern (subject) SUBJ (verb) >> AUX, where SUBJ and AUX match shape in the continuative aspect, as in >> s^idoz^iNga akHa ghaage akHa, 'the boy is crying.' >> >> -jtm >> >> >> On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 1:50 PM, Rory Larson wrote: >> >>> Hi Dave, >>> >>> >>> >>> In Omaha and Ponca, the corresponding article is amá, where you have >>> abá. As with Kaw, it tends to imply 'moving/absent'. But we also have >>> another particle, apparently pronounced the same way, coming at the end of >>> the sentence, that implies that the foregoing is hearsay rather than solid >>> fact. It can stand by itself, or it can be coupled with the 'allegedly' >>> particle bi to make the common ending for 3rd person hearsay action, >>> biama. >>> >>> >>> >>> I notice the accent changes to the first syllable in the second case of >>> your example. I wonder if that could be underlyingly a-aba in that case? >>> The first would be the ablauted version of 'he said it', followed by either >>> the Old Man's article abá or a 'hearsay' particle as in OP. One problem >>> with that would be that the 'hearsay' amá in OP shouldn't cause a preceding >>> verb to ablaut. >>> >>> >>> >>> My $0.02. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Rory >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf >>> Of *David Kaufman >>> *Sent:* Thursday, February 20, 2014 1:30 PM >>> *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU >>> *Subject:* Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> >>> >>> I have a question re: a curious structure in Kaw, and whether anything >>> like it occurs in other Dhegihan or even non-Dhegihan Siouan languages. >>> The structure involves the articles akhá and abá, used for subjects in Kaw >>> and usually translated 'the', the first being roughly for >>> 'standing/sitting' and the other for 'moving/absent'. However, in Kaw, >>> these subject articles also somehow seem to have become used as quotatives, >>> or 's/he said.' Here is an example sentence with gloss: >>> >>> >>> >>> *Icíkitanga abá, "Anyáxtaga-édan," ába-dan, nanstábe.* >>> >>> Old.Man said bite.me-then said-then kicked.him >>> >>> The Old Man said, "Then bite me," and he kicked him. >>> >>> >>> >>> So abá, which is normally used for 'moving' subjects and is usually >>> translated 'the', is now being used for 's/he said.' >>> >>> >>> >>> Any thoughts on this, esp. from other Dhegihan perspectives, or other >>> Siouan languages that might have some similar usage? >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> David Kaufman >>> >>> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >>> >>> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >>> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Thu Feb 20 23:10:17 2014 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2014 23:10:17 +0000 Subject: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dave, Sorry, I misunderstood your original question. But if we are talking about the first abá, then is that actually quotative as such? I see that it's glossed as 'said', but reading it in Dhegihan, I would understand that as a normal 'the' in reference to the Old Man, with a projective colon after it. My proposed punctuation of that sentence would be: Icíkitanga abá: "Anyáxtaga-édan" á-ba-dan, nanstábe. I like Justin's suggestion of looking at the quotation as substituting for what would normally be a verb. Thus: s^idoz^iNga akHa ghaage akHa, 'the boy is crying.' or ((s^idoz^iNga)-akHa ghaage)-akHa, 'the boy is crying.' ((boy)-akHa crying)-akHa. with the article wrapping up everything that preceeds it into a noun or stative declaration. For the quotative situation: iccikkitaNga akha: "oo aNs^i waali miNkHe" akHa. The Old Man [said]: "Oh, I'm getting fat." or ((iccikkitaNga)-akha "oo aNs^i waali miNkHe")-akHa. The Old Man [said], "Oh, I'm getting fat." When we have NOUN-ARTICLE WHATSIT-ARTICLE sentences, it seems to me that we are just adding attributes or qualifiers onto the original noun. The attribute may be a verb that tells what they did, or it may be the words they spoke, but I don't think that would change the meaning of the articles. It should just be sentence structure, pausing, and understanding of the content that would used by the listener to parse the meaning. Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of David Kaufman Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 2:42 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives Hi Rory, Thanks for your two cents. I think that that second ába is the actual verb e 'say' with the non-continuative marker -be, which is then ablauted before dan 'then'. So that leaves just the first abá that's really in question as to its supposed dual usage of article and quotative. But examples of this dual usage abound in the Kaw texts with both articles akhá and abá. Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 1:50 PM, Rory Larson > wrote: Hi Dave, In Omaha and Ponca, the corresponding article is amá, where you have abá. As with Kaw, it tends to imply 'moving/absent'. But we also have another particle, apparently pronounced the same way, coming at the end of the sentence, that implies that the foregoing is hearsay rather than solid fact. It can stand by itself, or it can be coupled with the 'allegedly' particle bi to make the common ending for 3rd person hearsay action, biama. I notice the accent changes to the first syllable in the second case of your example. I wonder if that could be underlyingly a-aba in that case? The first would be the ablauted version of 'he said it', followed by either the Old Man's article abá or a 'hearsay' particle as in OP. One problem with that would be that the 'hearsay' amá in OP shouldn't cause a preceding verb to ablaut. My $0.02. Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of David Kaufman Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 1:30 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives Hi all, I have a question re: a curious structure in Kaw, and whether anything like it occurs in other Dhegihan or even non-Dhegihan Siouan languages. The structure involves the articles akhá and abá, used for subjects in Kaw and usually translated 'the', the first being roughly for 'standing/sitting' and the other for 'moving/absent'. However, in Kaw, these subject articles also somehow seem to have become used as quotatives, or 's/he said.' Here is an example sentence with gloss: Icíkitanga abá, "Anyáxtaga-édan," ába-dan, nanstábe. Old.Man said bite.me-then said-then kicked.him The Old Man said, "Then bite me," and he kicked him. So abá, which is normally used for 'moving' subjects and is usually translated 'the', is now being used for 's/he said.' Any thoughts on this, esp. from other Dhegihan perspectives, or other Siouan languages that might have some similar usage? Thanks! David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Thu Feb 20 23:15:58 2014 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2014 23:15:58 +0000 Subject: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks for the analysis, Justin. That makes much better sense than what I had suggested. Very interesting that the Kaw (a)be particle, which should be either cognate or closely related to the Omaha (a)bi particle, can ablaut. I wasn't aware of that; it's good to know. Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mcbride, Justin Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 3:00 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives For what it's worth, I believe that what appears to be a second token of aba in the example, aba-daN is actually a different type altogether. In this case, I think it's a case of the verb e(e), 'to say', plus the -(a)be completive aspect marker plus the conjunction -(a)daN, 'and' [e(e)-(a)be-(a)daN > aba-daN]. If so, then, that one really is just 's/he said and,' and the first one is actually the subject marker. But that's not to say that there aren't other examples of the quotative use of subject markers in Ks, even within the same text. Here's an example of quotative akHa: iccikkitaNga akha oo aNs^i waali miNkHe akHa. The Old Man said, "Oh, I'm getting fat." This case is much clearer to my way of thinking because there are two verbal auxiliaries marking the same state (in this case, at rest) back-to-back, one of which refers to 1st person (miNkHe, part of the quotation), and one 3rd person (akHa, marks quotation). It's curious to note that in the audio for this, the speaker laughs after miNkHe and then almost catches her breath before saying akHa, which would indicate to me that she felt it was essential for concluding the sentence. It's interesting to me in that it seems that the entire quoted clause is acting almost like a verb following the canonical pattern (subject) SUBJ (verb) AUX, where SUBJ and AUX match shape in the continuative aspect, as in s^idoz^iNga akHa ghaage akHa, 'the boy is crying.' -jtm On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 1:50 PM, Rory Larson > wrote: Hi Dave, In Omaha and Ponca, the corresponding article is amá, where you have abá. As with Kaw, it tends to imply 'moving/absent'. But we also have another particle, apparently pronounced the same way, coming at the end of the sentence, that implies that the foregoing is hearsay rather than solid fact. It can stand by itself, or it can be coupled with the 'allegedly' particle bi to make the common ending for 3rd person hearsay action, biama. I notice the accent changes to the first syllable in the second case of your example. I wonder if that could be underlyingly a-aba in that case? The first would be the ablauted version of 'he said it', followed by either the Old Man's article abá or a 'hearsay' particle as in OP. One problem with that would be that the 'hearsay' amá in OP shouldn't cause a preceding verb to ablaut. My $0.02. Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of David Kaufman Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 1:30 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives Hi all, I have a question re: a curious structure in Kaw, and whether anything like it occurs in other Dhegihan or even non-Dhegihan Siouan languages. The structure involves the articles akhá and abá, used for subjects in Kaw and usually translated 'the', the first being roughly for 'standing/sitting' and the other for 'moving/absent'. However, in Kaw, these subject articles also somehow seem to have become used as quotatives, or 's/he said.' Here is an example sentence with gloss: Icíkitanga abá, "Anyáxtaga-édan," ába-dan, nanstábe. Old.Man said bite.me-then said-then kicked.him The Old Man said, "Then bite me," and he kicked him. So abá, which is normally used for 'moving' subjects and is usually translated 'the', is now being used for 's/he said.' Any thoughts on this, esp. from other Dhegihan perspectives, or other Siouan languages that might have some similar usage? Thanks! David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Fri Feb 21 18:53:51 2014 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2014 12:53:51 -0600 Subject: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives In-Reply-To: <398dc2c9ad0847ef8fbe42c83c68867e@DM2PR08MB525.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Thanks Rory and Justin for the feedback. On another note, I've also been wondering about how serial verbs are handled in Siouan in general. In the Kaw data, when two verbs come together, the second verb always conjugates for person while the first looks like it can either conjugate to match the second verb or it can stay in the third person (neutral) form. I seem to recall that in Biloxi, serial verbs *always* match, first and second verbs having the same person conjugation. What do other Siouan languages do in regards to this? Are there any hard and fast rules about this? Thanks again! Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 5:15 PM, Rory Larson wrote: > Thanks for the analysis, Justin. That makes much better sense than what > I had suggested. Very interesting that the Kaw (a)be particle, which > should be either cognate or closely related to the Omaha (a)bi particle, > can ablaut. I wasn't aware of that; it's good to know. > > > > Best, > > Rory > > > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of > *Mcbride, Justin > *Sent:* Thursday, February 20, 2014 3:00 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU > *Subject:* Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives > > > > For what it's worth, I believe that what appears to be a second token of > aba in the example, aba-daN is actually a different type altogether. In > this case, I think it's a case of the verb e(e), 'to say', plus the -(a)be > completive aspect marker plus the conjunction -(a)daN, 'and' > [e(e)-(a)be-(a)daN > aba-daN]. If so, then, that one really is just 's/he > said and,' and the first one is actually the subject marker. But that's not > to say that there aren't other examples of the quotative use of subject > markers in Ks, even within the same text. Here's an example of quotative > akHa: > > > > iccikkitaNga akha oo aNs^i waali miNkHe akHa. > > The Old Man said, "Oh, I'm getting fat." > > > > This case is much clearer to my way of thinking because there are two > verbal auxiliaries marking the same state (in this case, at rest) > back-to-back, one of which refers to 1st person (miNkHe, part of the > quotation), and one 3rd person (akHa, marks quotation). It's curious to > note that in the audio for this, the speaker laughs after miNkHe and then > almost catches her breath before saying akHa, which would indicate to me > that she felt it was essential for concluding the sentence. It's > interesting to me in that it seems that the entire quoted clause is acting > almost like a verb following the canonical pattern (subject) SUBJ (verb) > AUX, where SUBJ and AUX match shape in the continuative aspect, as in > s^idoz^iNga akHa ghaage akHa, 'the boy is crying.' > > > > -jtm > > > > On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 1:50 PM, Rory Larson wrote: > > Hi Dave, > > > > In Omaha and Ponca, the corresponding article is amá, where you have abá. > As with Kaw, it tends to imply 'moving/absent'. But we also have another > particle, apparently pronounced the same way, coming at the end of the > sentence, that implies that the foregoing is hearsay rather than solid > fact. It can stand by itself, or it can be coupled with the 'allegedly' > particle bi to make the common ending for 3rd person hearsay action, > biama. > > > > I notice the accent changes to the first syllable in the second case of > your example. I wonder if that could be underlyingly a-aba in that case? > The first would be the ablauted version of 'he said it', followed by either > the Old Man's article abá or a 'hearsay' particle as in OP. One problem > with that would be that the 'hearsay' amá in OP shouldn't cause a preceding > verb to ablaut. > > > > My $0.02. > > > > Best, > > Rory > > > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of > *David Kaufman > *Sent:* Thursday, February 20, 2014 1:30 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU > *Subject:* Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives > > > > Hi all, > > > > I have a question re: a curious structure in Kaw, and whether anything > like it occurs in other Dhegihan or even non-Dhegihan Siouan languages. > The structure involves the articles akhá and abá, used for subjects in Kaw > and usually translated 'the', the first being roughly for > 'standing/sitting' and the other for 'moving/absent'. However, in Kaw, > these subject articles also somehow seem to have become used as quotatives, > or 's/he said.' Here is an example sentence with gloss: > > > > *Icíkitanga abá, "Anyáxtaga-édan," ába-dan, nanstábe.* > > Old.Man said bite.me-then said-then kicked.him > > The Old Man said, "Then bite me," and he kicked him. > > > > So abá, which is normally used for 'moving' subjects and is usually > translated 'the', is now being used for 's/he said.' > > > > Any thoughts on this, esp. from other Dhegihan perspectives, or other > Siouan languages that might have some similar usage? > > > > Thanks! > > > > > David Kaufman > > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Fri Feb 21 19:28:29 2014 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2014 19:28:29 +0000 Subject: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dave, What you describe for Kaw seems to be what my experience with Omaha has been. As I recall, elicited statements usually have the first verb in neutral form, but if you ask the speakers which way is better, giving both options, they generally prefer the one with both verbs conjugated. I think the latter is the way it normally appears in Dorsey (19th century). Of course, the real power of the old (?) system is that the first verb can conjugate for different subjects and objects than the second one, as in "I want you to give me the toy" = Toy-the me-you-give I-want. Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of David Kaufman Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 12:54 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives Thanks Rory and Justin for the feedback. On another note, I've also been wondering about how serial verbs are handled in Siouan in general. In the Kaw data, when two verbs come together, the second verb always conjugates for person while the first looks like it can either conjugate to match the second verb or it can stay in the third person (neutral) form. I seem to recall that in Biloxi, serial verbs *always* match, first and second verbs having the same person conjugation. What do other Siouan languages do in regards to this? Are there any hard and fast rules about this? Thanks again! Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 5:15 PM, Rory Larson > wrote: Thanks for the analysis, Justin. That makes much better sense than what I had suggested. Very interesting that the Kaw (a)be particle, which should be either cognate or closely related to the Omaha (a)bi particle, can ablaut. I wasn't aware of that; it's good to know. Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mcbride, Justin Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 3:00 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives For what it's worth, I believe that what appears to be a second token of aba in the example, aba-daN is actually a different type altogether. In this case, I think it's a case of the verb e(e), 'to say', plus the -(a)be completive aspect marker plus the conjunction -(a)daN, 'and' [e(e)-(a)be-(a)daN > aba-daN]. If so, then, that one really is just 's/he said and,' and the first one is actually the subject marker. But that's not to say that there aren't other examples of the quotative use of subject markers in Ks, even within the same text. Here's an example of quotative akHa: iccikkitaNga akha oo aNs^i waali miNkHe akHa. The Old Man said, "Oh, I'm getting fat." This case is much clearer to my way of thinking because there are two verbal auxiliaries marking the same state (in this case, at rest) back-to-back, one of which refers to 1st person (miNkHe, part of the quotation), and one 3rd person (akHa, marks quotation). It's curious to note that in the audio for this, the speaker laughs after miNkHe and then almost catches her breath before saying akHa, which would indicate to me that she felt it was essential for concluding the sentence. It's interesting to me in that it seems that the entire quoted clause is acting almost like a verb following the canonical pattern (subject) SUBJ (verb) AUX, where SUBJ and AUX match shape in the continuative aspect, as in s^idoz^iNga akHa ghaage akHa, 'the boy is crying.' -jtm On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 1:50 PM, Rory Larson > wrote: Hi Dave, In Omaha and Ponca, the corresponding article is amá, where you have abá. As with Kaw, it tends to imply 'moving/absent'. But we also have another particle, apparently pronounced the same way, coming at the end of the sentence, that implies that the foregoing is hearsay rather than solid fact. It can stand by itself, or it can be coupled with the 'allegedly' particle bi to make the common ending for 3rd person hearsay action, biama. I notice the accent changes to the first syllable in the second case of your example. I wonder if that could be underlyingly a-aba in that case? The first would be the ablauted version of 'he said it', followed by either the Old Man's article abá or a 'hearsay' particle as in OP. One problem with that would be that the 'hearsay' amá in OP shouldn't cause a preceding verb to ablaut. My $0.02. Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of David Kaufman Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 1:30 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives Hi all, I have a question re: a curious structure in Kaw, and whether anything like it occurs in other Dhegihan or even non-Dhegihan Siouan languages. The structure involves the articles akhá and abá, used for subjects in Kaw and usually translated 'the', the first being roughly for 'standing/sitting' and the other for 'moving/absent'. However, in Kaw, these subject articles also somehow seem to have become used as quotatives, or 's/he said.' Here is an example sentence with gloss: Icíkitanga abá, "Anyáxtaga-édan," ába-dan, nanstábe. Old.Man said bite.me-then said-then kicked.him The Old Man said, "Then bite me," and he kicked him. So abá, which is normally used for 'moving' subjects and is usually translated 'the', is now being used for 's/he said.' Any thoughts on this, esp. from other Dhegihan perspectives, or other Siouan languages that might have some similar usage? Thanks! David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU Fri Feb 21 19:28:44 2014 From: WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU (De Reuse, Willem) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2014 19:28:44 +0000 Subject: Serial verbs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear David and all: Attached, a .pdf of my article on Serial Verbs in Lakota. All of the Lakota forms in this article are from field research done by others, so it never hurts to check with a Lakota speaker, if you see something you doubt. I don't think it should be a problem if I share this article to this list. If it is a problem, let me know. Full quotation available at Oxford University Press website. Use for scholarly purposes only, and do not post anywhere else. Best, Willem ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics on behalf of David Kaufman Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 12:53 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives Thanks Rory and Justin for the feedback. On another note, I've also been wondering about how serial verbs are handled in Siouan in general. In the Kaw data, when two verbs come together, the second verb always conjugates for person while the first looks like it can either conjugate to match the second verb or it can stay in the third person (neutral) form. I seem to recall that in Biloxi, serial verbs *always* match, first and second verbs having the same person conjugation. What do other Siouan languages do in regards to this? Are there any hard and fast rules about this? Thanks again! Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 5:15 PM, Rory Larson > wrote: Thanks for the analysis, Justin. That makes much better sense than what I had suggested. Very interesting that the Kaw (a)be particle, which should be either cognate or closely related to the Omaha (a)bi particle, can ablaut. I wasn’t aware of that; it’s good to know. Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mcbride, Justin Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 3:00 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives For what it's worth, I believe that what appears to be a second token of aba in the example, aba-daN is actually a different type altogether. In this case, I think it's a case of the verb e(e), 'to say', plus the -(a)be completive aspect marker plus the conjunction -(a)daN, 'and' [e(e)-(a)be-(a)daN > aba-daN]. If so, then, that one really is just 's/he said and,' and the first one is actually the subject marker. But that's not to say that there aren't other examples of the quotative use of subject markers in Ks, even within the same text. Here's an example of quotative akHa: iccikkitaNga akha oo aNs^i waali miNkHe akHa. The Old Man said, "Oh, I'm getting fat." This case is much clearer to my way of thinking because there are two verbal auxiliaries marking the same state (in this case, at rest) back-to-back, one of which refers to 1st person (miNkHe, part of the quotation), and one 3rd person (akHa, marks quotation). It's curious to note that in the audio for this, the speaker laughs after miNkHe and then almost catches her breath before saying akHa, which would indicate to me that she felt it was essential for concluding the sentence. It's interesting to me in that it seems that the entire quoted clause is acting almost like a verb following the canonical pattern (subject) SUBJ (verb) AUX, where SUBJ and AUX match shape in the continuative aspect, as in s^idoz^iNga akHa ghaage akHa, 'the boy is crying.' -jtm On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 1:50 PM, Rory Larson > wrote: Hi Dave, In Omaha and Ponca, the corresponding article is amá, where you have abá. As with Kaw, it tends to imply ‘moving/absent’. But we also have another particle, apparently pronounced the same way, coming at the end of the sentence, that implies that the foregoing is hearsay rather than solid fact. It can stand by itself, or it can be coupled with the ‘allegedly’ particle bi to make the common ending for 3rd person hearsay action, biama. I notice the accent changes to the first syllable in the second case of your example. I wonder if that could be underlyingly a-aba in that case? The first would be the ablauted version of ‘he said it’, followed by either the Old Man’s article abá or a ‘hearsay’ particle as in OP. One problem with that would be that the ‘hearsay’ amá in OP shouldn’t cause a preceding verb to ablaut. My $0.02. Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of David Kaufman Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 1:30 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives Hi all, I have a question re: a curious structure in Kaw, and whether anything like it occurs in other Dhegihan or even non-Dhegihan Siouan languages. The structure involves the articles akhá and abá, used for subjects in Kaw and usually translated 'the', the first being roughly for 'standing/sitting' and the other for 'moving/absent'. However, in Kaw, these subject articles also somehow seem to have become used as quotatives, or 's/he said.' Here is an example sentence with gloss: Icíkitanga abá, “Anyáxtaga-édan,” ába-dan, nanstábe. Old.Man said bite.me-then said-then kicked.him The Old Man said, “Then bite me,” and he kicked him. So abá, which is normally used for 'moving' subjects and is usually translated 'the', is now being used for 's/he said.' Any thoughts on this, esp. from other Dhegihan perspectives, or other Siouan languages that might have some similar usage? Thanks! David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 2006Serial VerbsInLakota.pdf Type: application/imagen Size: 1189793 bytes Desc: 2006Serial VerbsInLakota.pdf URL: From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Fri Feb 21 20:01:12 2014 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2014 14:01:12 -0600 Subject: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives In-Reply-To: <71933e22fde8486f894ebcbba2fa0234@DM2PR08MB525.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Rory, So it seems like both forms conjugated may have been the original method (pre-20th century), but, perhaps due to the increasing influence of English, it can now be just final verb? Interesting how these things come about. Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 1:28 PM, Rory Larson wrote: > Dave, > > > > What you describe for Kaw seems to be what my experience with Omaha has > been. As I recall, elicited statements usually have the first verb in > neutral form, but if you ask the speakers which way is better, giving both > options, they generally prefer the one with both verbs conjugated. I think > the latter is the way it normally appears in Dorsey (19th century). > > > > Of course, the real power of the old (?) system is that the first verb can > conjugate for different subjects and objects than the second one, as in "I > want you to give me the toy" = Toy-the me-you-give I-want. > > > > Best, > > Rory > > > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of > *David Kaufman > *Sent:* Friday, February 21, 2014 12:54 PM > > *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU > *Subject:* Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives > > > > Thanks Rory and Justin for the feedback. > > > > On another note, I've also been wondering about how serial verbs are > handled in Siouan in general. In the Kaw data, when two verbs come > together, the second verb always conjugates for person while the first > looks like it can either conjugate to match the second verb or it can stay > in the third person (neutral) form. I seem to recall that in Biloxi, > serial verbs *always* match, first and second verbs having the same person > conjugation. What do other Siouan languages do in regards to this? Are > there any hard and fast rules about this? > > > > Thanks again! > > > > Dave > > > David Kaufman > > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > > > On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 5:15 PM, Rory Larson wrote: > > Thanks for the analysis, Justin. That makes much better sense than what I > had suggested. Very interesting that the Kaw (a)be particle, which should > be either cognate or closely related to the Omaha (a)bi particle, can > ablaut. I wasn't aware of that; it's good to know. > > > > Best, > > Rory > > > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of > *Mcbride, Justin > *Sent:* Thursday, February 20, 2014 3:00 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU > *Subject:* Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives > > > > For what it's worth, I believe that what appears to be a second token of > aba in the example, aba-daN is actually a different type altogether. In > this case, I think it's a case of the verb e(e), 'to say', plus the -(a)be > completive aspect marker plus the conjunction -(a)daN, 'and' > [e(e)-(a)be-(a)daN > aba-daN]. If so, then, that one really is just 's/he > said and,' and the first one is actually the subject marker. But that's not > to say that there aren't other examples of the quotative use of subject > markers in Ks, even within the same text. Here's an example of quotative > akHa: > > > > iccikkitaNga akha oo aNs^i waali miNkHe akHa. > > The Old Man said, "Oh, I'm getting fat." > > > > This case is much clearer to my way of thinking because there are two > verbal auxiliaries marking the same state (in this case, at rest) > back-to-back, one of which refers to 1st person (miNkHe, part of the > quotation), and one 3rd person (akHa, marks quotation). It's curious to > note that in the audio for this, the speaker laughs after miNkHe and then > almost catches her breath before saying akHa, which would indicate to me > that she felt it was essential for concluding the sentence. It's > interesting to me in that it seems that the entire quoted clause is acting > almost like a verb following the canonical pattern (subject) SUBJ (verb) > AUX, where SUBJ and AUX match shape in the continuative aspect, as in > s^idoz^iNga akHa ghaage akHa, 'the boy is crying.' > > > > -jtm > > > > On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 1:50 PM, Rory Larson wrote: > > Hi Dave, > > > > In Omaha and Ponca, the corresponding article is amá, where you have abá. > As with Kaw, it tends to imply 'moving/absent'. But we also have another > particle, apparently pronounced the same way, coming at the end of the > sentence, that implies that the foregoing is hearsay rather than solid > fact. It can stand by itself, or it can be coupled with the 'allegedly' > particle bi to make the common ending for 3rd person hearsay action, > biama. > > > > I notice the accent changes to the first syllable in the second case of > your example. I wonder if that could be underlyingly a-aba in that case? > The first would be the ablauted version of 'he said it', followed by either > the Old Man's article abá or a 'hearsay' particle as in OP. One problem > with that would be that the 'hearsay' amá in OP shouldn't cause a preceding > verb to ablaut. > > > > My $0.02. > > > > Best, > > Rory > > > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of > *David Kaufman > *Sent:* Thursday, February 20, 2014 1:30 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU > *Subject:* Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives > > > > Hi all, > > > > I have a question re: a curious structure in Kaw, and whether anything > like it occurs in other Dhegihan or even non-Dhegihan Siouan languages. > The structure involves the articles akhá and abá, used for subjects in Kaw > and usually translated 'the', the first being roughly for > 'standing/sitting' and the other for 'moving/absent'. However, in Kaw, > these subject articles also somehow seem to have become used as quotatives, > or 's/he said.' Here is an example sentence with gloss: > > > > *Icíkitanga abá, "Anyáxtaga-édan," ába-dan, nanstábe.* > > Old.Man said bite.me-then said-then kicked.him > > The Old Man said, "Then bite me," and he kicked him. > > > > So abá, which is normally used for 'moving' subjects and is usually > translated 'the', is now being used for 's/he said.' > > > > Any thoughts on this, esp. from other Dhegihan perspectives, or other > Siouan languages that might have some similar usage? > > > > Thanks! > > > > > David Kaufman > > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Fri Feb 21 20:01:53 2014 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2014 14:01:53 -0600 Subject: Serial verbs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thank you, Willem. Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 1:28 PM, De Reuse, Willem wrote: > > > Dear David and all: > > > Attached, a .pdf of my article on Serial Verbs in Lakota. > > > All of the Lakota forms in this article are from field research done by > others, so it never hurts to check with a Lakota speaker, if you see > something you doubt. > > > I don't think it should be a problem if I share this article to this > list. If it is a problem, let me know. Full quotation available at > Oxford University Press website. Use for scholarly purposes only, and do > not post anywhere else. > > > Best, > > > Willem > ------------------------------ > *From:* Siouan Linguistics on behalf of David > Kaufman > *Sent:* Friday, February 21, 2014 12:53 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives > > Thanks Rory and Justin for the feedback. > > On another note, I've also been wondering about how serial verbs are > handled in Siouan in general. In the Kaw data, when two verbs come > together, the second verb always conjugates for person while the first > looks like it can either conjugate to match the second verb or it can stay > in the third person (neutral) form. I seem to recall that in Biloxi, > serial verbs *always* match, first and second verbs having the same person > conjugation. What do other Siouan languages do in regards to this? Are > there any hard and fast rules about this? > > Thanks again! > > Dave > > David Kaufman > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > > On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 5:15 PM, Rory Larson wrote: > >> Thanks for the analysis, Justin. That makes much better sense than >> what I had suggested. Very interesting that the Kaw (a)be particle, which >> should be either cognate or closely related to the Omaha (a)bi particle, >> can ablaut. I wasn't aware of that; it's good to know. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Rory >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf >> Of *Mcbride, Justin >> *Sent:* Thursday, February 20, 2014 3:00 PM >> *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU >> *Subject:* Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives >> >> >> >> For what it's worth, I believe that what appears to be a second token of >> aba in the example, aba-daN is actually a different type altogether. In >> this case, I think it's a case of the verb e(e), 'to say', plus the -(a)be >> completive aspect marker plus the conjunction -(a)daN, 'and' >> [e(e)-(a)be-(a)daN > aba-daN]. If so, then, that one really is just 's/he >> said and,' and the first one is actually the subject marker. But that's not >> to say that there aren't other examples of the quotative use of subject >> markers in Ks, even within the same text. Here's an example of quotative >> akHa: >> >> >> >> iccikkitaNga akha oo aNs^i waali miNkHe akHa. >> >> The Old Man said, "Oh, I'm getting fat." >> >> >> >> This case is much clearer to my way of thinking because there are two >> verbal auxiliaries marking the same state (in this case, at rest) >> back-to-back, one of which refers to 1st person (miNkHe, part of the >> quotation), and one 3rd person (akHa, marks quotation). It's curious to >> note that in the audio for this, the speaker laughs after miNkHe and then >> almost catches her breath before saying akHa, which would indicate to me >> that she felt it was essential for concluding the sentence. It's >> interesting to me in that it seems that the entire quoted clause is acting >> almost like a verb following the canonical pattern (subject) SUBJ (verb) >> AUX, where SUBJ and AUX match shape in the continuative aspect, as in >> s^idoz^iNga akHa ghaage akHa, 'the boy is crying.' >> >> >> >> -jtm >> >> >> >> On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 1:50 PM, Rory Larson wrote: >> >> Hi Dave, >> >> >> >> In Omaha and Ponca, the corresponding article is amá, where you have >> abá. As with Kaw, it tends to imply 'moving/absent'. But we also have >> another particle, apparently pronounced the same way, coming at the end of >> the sentence, that implies that the foregoing is hearsay rather than solid >> fact. It can stand by itself, or it can be coupled with the 'allegedly' >> particle bi to make the common ending for 3rd person hearsay action, >> biama. >> >> >> >> I notice the accent changes to the first syllable in the second case of >> your example. I wonder if that could be underlyingly a-aba in that case? >> The first would be the ablauted version of 'he said it', followed by either >> the Old Man's article abá or a 'hearsay' particle as in OP. One problem >> with that would be that the 'hearsay' amá in OP shouldn't cause a preceding >> verb to ablaut. >> >> >> >> My $0.02. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Rory >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf >> Of *David Kaufman >> *Sent:* Thursday, February 20, 2014 1:30 PM >> *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU >> *Subject:* Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives >> >> >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> I have a question re: a curious structure in Kaw, and whether anything >> like it occurs in other Dhegihan or even non-Dhegihan Siouan languages. >> The structure involves the articles akhá and abá, used for subjects in Kaw >> and usually translated 'the', the first being roughly for >> 'standing/sitting' and the other for 'moving/absent'. However, in Kaw, >> these subject articles also somehow seem to have become used as quotatives, >> or 's/he said.' Here is an example sentence with gloss: >> >> >> >> *Icíkitanga abá, "Anyáxtaga-édan," ába-dan, nanstábe.* >> >> Old.Man said bite.me-then said-then kicked.him >> >> The Old Man said, "Then bite me," and he kicked him. >> >> >> >> So abá, which is normally used for 'moving' subjects and is usually >> translated 'the', is now being used for 's/he said.' >> >> >> >> Any thoughts on this, esp. from other Dhegihan perspectives, or other >> Siouan languages that might have some similar usage? >> >> >> >> Thanks! >> >> >> >> >> David Kaufman >> >> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >> >> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >> >> >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From linguista at GMAIL.COM Fri Feb 21 21:22:50 2014 From: linguista at GMAIL.COM (Bryan James Gordon) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2014 14:22:50 -0700 Subject: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Digging through 19th century Omaha and Ponca texts I've found evidence for a role for subcategorization, that is, some final verbs in some contexts tend to follow conjugated verbs, while others tend to follow "infinitives". Our resident syntacticians may have more precise observations. Catherine? On Feb 21, 2014 1:04 PM, "David Kaufman" wrote: > Rory, > > So it seems like both forms conjugated may have been the original method > (pre-20th century), but, perhaps due to the increasing influence of > English, it can now be just final verb? Interesting how these things come > about. > > Dave > > David Kaufman > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > > On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 1:28 PM, Rory Larson wrote: > >> Dave, >> >> >> >> What you describe for Kaw seems to be what my experience with Omaha has >> been. As I recall, elicited statements usually have the first verb in >> neutral form, but if you ask the speakers which way is better, giving both >> options, they generally prefer the one with both verbs conjugated. I think >> the latter is the way it normally appears in Dorsey (19th century). >> >> >> >> Of course, the real power of the old (?) system is that the first verb >> can conjugate for different subjects and objects than the second one, as in >> “I want you to give me the toy” = Toy-the me-you-give I-want. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Rory >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf >> Of *David Kaufman >> *Sent:* Friday, February 21, 2014 12:54 PM >> >> *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU >> *Subject:* Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives >> >> >> >> Thanks Rory and Justin for the feedback. >> >> >> >> On another note, I've also been wondering about how serial verbs are >> handled in Siouan in general. In the Kaw data, when two verbs come >> together, the second verb always conjugates for person while the first >> looks like it can either conjugate to match the second verb or it can stay >> in the third person (neutral) form. I seem to recall that in Biloxi, >> serial verbs *always* match, first and second verbs having the same person >> conjugation. What do other Siouan languages do in regards to this? Are >> there any hard and fast rules about this? >> >> >> >> Thanks again! >> >> >> >> Dave >> >> >> David Kaufman >> >> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >> >> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >> >> >> >> On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 5:15 PM, Rory Larson wrote: >> >> Thanks for the analysis, Justin. That makes much better sense than what >> I had suggested. Very interesting that the Kaw (a)be particle, which >> should be either cognate or closely related to the Omaha (a)bi particle, >> can ablaut. I wasn’t aware of that; it’s good to know. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Rory >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf >> Of *Mcbride, Justin >> *Sent:* Thursday, February 20, 2014 3:00 PM >> *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU >> *Subject:* Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives >> >> >> >> For what it's worth, I believe that what appears to be a second token of >> aba in the example, aba-daN is actually a different type altogether. In >> this case, I think it's a case of the verb e(e), 'to say', plus the -(a)be >> completive aspect marker plus the conjunction -(a)daN, 'and' >> [e(e)-(a)be-(a)daN > aba-daN]. If so, then, that one really is just 's/he >> said and,' and the first one is actually the subject marker. But that's not >> to say that there aren't other examples of the quotative use of subject >> markers in Ks, even within the same text. Here's an example of quotative >> akHa: >> >> >> >> iccikkitaNga akha oo aNs^i waali miNkHe akHa. >> >> The Old Man said, "Oh, I'm getting fat." >> >> >> >> This case is much clearer to my way of thinking because there are two >> verbal auxiliaries marking the same state (in this case, at rest) >> back-to-back, one of which refers to 1st person (miNkHe, part of the >> quotation), and one 3rd person (akHa, marks quotation). It's curious to >> note that in the audio for this, the speaker laughs after miNkHe and then >> almost catches her breath before saying akHa, which would indicate to me >> that she felt it was essential for concluding the sentence. It's >> interesting to me in that it seems that the entire quoted clause is acting >> almost like a verb following the canonical pattern (subject) SUBJ (verb) >> AUX, where SUBJ and AUX match shape in the continuative aspect, as in >> s^idoz^iNga akHa ghaage akHa, 'the boy is crying.' >> >> >> >> -jtm >> >> >> >> On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 1:50 PM, Rory Larson wrote: >> >> Hi Dave, >> >> >> >> In Omaha and Ponca, the corresponding article is amá, where you have >> abá. As with Kaw, it tends to imply ‘moving/absent’. But we also have >> another particle, apparently pronounced the same way, coming at the end of >> the sentence, that implies that the foregoing is hearsay rather than solid >> fact. It can stand by itself, or it can be coupled with the ‘allegedly’ >> particle bi to make the common ending for 3rd person hearsay action, >> biama. >> >> >> >> I notice the accent changes to the first syllable in the second case of >> your example. I wonder if that could be underlyingly a-aba in that case? >> The first would be the ablauted version of ‘he said it’, followed by either >> the Old Man’s article abá or a ‘hearsay’ particle as in OP. One problem >> with that would be that the ‘hearsay’ amá in OP shouldn’t cause a preceding >> verb to ablaut. >> >> >> >> My $0.02. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Rory >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf >> Of *David Kaufman >> *Sent:* Thursday, February 20, 2014 1:30 PM >> *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU >> *Subject:* Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives >> >> >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> I have a question re: a curious structure in Kaw, and whether anything >> like it occurs in other Dhegihan or even non-Dhegihan Siouan languages. >> The structure involves the articles akhá and abá, used for subjects in Kaw >> and usually translated 'the', the first being roughly for >> 'standing/sitting' and the other for 'moving/absent'. However, in Kaw, >> these subject articles also somehow seem to have become used as quotatives, >> or 's/he said.' Here is an example sentence with gloss: >> >> >> >> *Icíkitanga abá, “Anyáxtaga-édan,” ába-dan, nanstábe.* >> >> Old.Man said bite.me-then said-then kicked.him >> >> The Old Man said, “Then bite me,” and he kicked him. >> >> >> >> So abá, which is normally used for 'moving' subjects and is usually >> translated 'the', is now being used for 's/he said.' >> >> >> >> Any thoughts on this, esp. from other Dhegihan perspectives, or other >> Siouan languages that might have some similar usage? >> >> >> >> Thanks! >> >> >> >> >> David Kaufman >> >> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >> >> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >> >> >> >> >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Sat Feb 22 03:33:21 2014 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm Goodtracks) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2014 21:33:21 -0600 Subject: Aho! In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E436C33F3C3C71@Server6-EX.omtribe.net> Message-ID: That is an interesting find, and all your explanations are plausible, especially the 2nd one. I do not recall coming across this before, and I can not find any thing like it in the IOM Dictionary. The imperative works just as you say, and I know of no deviation. The collected texts from Dorsey, and those from Julia Small, a monolingual speaker, did not have examples as you have found. The mystery needs be reviewed by a higher power, namely the Siouan List, to whom I am going to cc this reply for their input by the professional experts and those who may have some explanation for this occurrence, or able to leave as a Hamilton phenomena. From: Campbell, Sky Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 10:44 AM To: Jimm G. GoodTracks Subject: Aho! Hope all is well up your way J. Quick question about something I’ve noticed in Hamilton and Irvin’s books. After some of the commands/imperatives, there is an extra syllable after the verb. For example, they have: wa-ka a-ta-ka-ræ – see the snake I have no idea what the “ka” is doing after (what would be for us) “ada”. But with Hamilton, he doesn’t differentiate between “k” and “g” so it may actually be a “g” for us. He uses this quite a bit for commands but I’m not understanding why and so far I haven’t found any clues. From what I can tell, it isn’t a form of plural since he uses –wi and he uses the singular 2nd person when the “ka” is used. And he doesn’t always use it for the singular imperative form which is what adds to my confusion. I have 3 possibilities that spring to mind. First, the “ka” might be a contracted form of “gasun” which perhaps might be indicating that whatever the speaker wants done, they want it done now. Not sure about this one since you usually see “gasun” at the beginning of a statement. Second is that the ending imperative “re” may actually be a contraction of an older form “kare/gare” and it has just stopped being used. That one is just a random guess LOL. Finally, I am wondering if the “ka” is actually perhaps “ke/ge” to refer to “in like manner” (ithke) but since it is an imperative, the “e” changes to an “a”. If so, then the above sentence would perhaps say something like “Look at the snake (in like manner).” And if so, I wonder if the context of the conversation would indicate just exactly what the “like manner” means. What do you think? Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org ­­ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Sat Feb 22 05:24:07 2014 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM (Sky Campbell) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2014 23:24:07 -0600 Subject: Aho! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'll show a few more examples from Hamilton that may help. The example I gave (wa-ka a-ta-ka-ræ) was from Hamilton's An Ioway Grammar, page 29. The following examples are from Hamilton's An Elementary Book of the Ioway Language. Perhaps these examples can help us find a common theme between them. I'll show imperatives with and without the extra "ka" syllable. FYI I'll also be using Hamilton's orthography. æ-ka-ræ - say it, speak (page 21) I've seen that as simply "a re" where the verb "e" for "say" changes to "a" for the imperative. na-yæ-ræ - stand up (no "ka" here) (page 22) ya-wæ-ræ - sing thou (no "ka" here) (page 23) u-yu-ræ - fill it (no "ka" here) (page 24) u-we-ra - do it (no "ka" here and is in plural form with the suffix -wi...might also be a typo since they went with "ra" rather than "ræ" unless he went for a possible female form but I'm doubting that since everything else seems to be exclusively in the male form) (page 24) hu-we-ræ - come here (no "ka" here and another plural form (page 24) ru-fæ-ræ - take it (no "ka" here) (page 24) ma-yæ-ræ - walk thou (no "ka" here (page 25) a-ta-ræ - see thou (no "ka" here and it is the same thing as my original example but without the "ka") (page 25) jwæ-me-ka-ræ - doctor me (page 29) e-cæ-ka-ræ - speak thou, tell (page 30) wo-ug-ka-ræ - work thou (page 30) ru-meg-ka-ræ - buy it (page 30) me-na-we-ræ - sit ye down (no "ka" here and is in plural form) (page 30) ke-kræ-we-ho - be ye gone (no "ka" here and is in plural form...also in the more polite imperative using "ho" instead of "re") (page 30) u-jkun-yæ-ræ - do not do it (no "ka" here) (page 31) wo-ku-we-ræ - give them (no "ka" here and is in plural form) (page 31) Ok, this should do for now. Typing out this list has given me a few tentative ideas that I need to flesh out but I'll be grateful for any input :). Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 9:33 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! That is an interesting find, and all your explanations are plausible, especially the 2nd one. I do not recall coming across this before, and I can not find any thing like it in the IOM Dictionary. The imperative works just as you say, and I know of no deviation. The collected texts from Dorsey, and those from Julia Small, a monolingual speaker, did not have examples as you have found. The mystery needs be reviewed by a higher power, namely the Siouan List, to whom I am going to cc this reply for their input by the professional experts and those who may have some explanation for this occurrence, or able to leave as a Hamilton phenomena. From: Campbell, Sky Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 10:44 AM To: Jimm G. GoodTracks Subject: Aho! Hope all is well up your way J. Quick question about something I’ve noticed in Hamilton and Irvin’s books. After some of the commands/imperatives, there is an extra syllable after the verb. For example, they have: wa-ka a-ta-ka-ræ – see the snake I have no idea what the “ka” is doing after (what would be for us) “ada”. But with Hamilton, he doesn’t differentiate between “k” and “g” so it may actually be a “g” for us. He uses this quite a bit for commands but I’m not understanding why and so far I haven’t found any clues. From what I can tell, it isn’t a form of plural since he uses –wi and he uses the singular 2nd person when the “ka” is used. And he doesn’t always use it for the singular imperative form which is what adds to my confusion. I have 3 possibilities that spring to mind. First, the “ka” might be a contracted form of “gasun” which perhaps might be indicating that whatever the speaker wants done, they want it done now. Not sure about this one since you usually see “gasun” at the beginning of a statement. Second is that the ending imperative “re” may actually be a contraction of an older form “kare/gare” and it has just stopped being used. That one is just a random guess LOL. Finally, I am wondering if the “ka” is actually perhaps “ke/ge” to refer to “in like manner” (ithke) but since it is an imperative, the “e” changes to an “a”. If so, then the above sentence would perhaps say something like “Look at the snake (in like manner).” And if so, I wonder if the context of the conversation would indicate just exactly what the “like manner” means. What do you think? Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org ­­ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Sat Feb 22 07:03:39 2014 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Greer, Jill) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2014 07:03:39 +0000 Subject: Aho! In-Reply-To: <000601cf2f8e$4f77da70$ee678f50$@com> Message-ID: Hi, Sky, Interesting! This is my gut response, without any new examples unfortunately. I can't help but think that it's somehow ga- the locational prefix for something you can see, but not directly next to 1st and 2nd person (gaida 'over there (but not yonder)', gaigu, etc. - which could ultimately be related to gasuN also. It might clarify actual location, or be used metaphorically for 'now/soon' even by itself. Regarding your concern about it occurring after the verb, I can think of the common phrase Are gasuN khi 'It's okay/that's all right' , which looks like it could be in other parts of a sentence, too, besides the beginning? Your last idea seems possible also, about thge 'to be thus' which could be a result ablauting before the command? I don't know if the initial fricative was missed by Hamilton, or was deleted. (Sort of like 'Walk this way' :) …) Is there any precedent in other Siouan languages for an emphatic form related to IOM kHe huN' ? I had the thought IF it were abbreviated to kHe, and occurred next to the -re 'command form', it could ablaut to kha , and make an emphatic command. (I have developed a personal English variant of that myself with my youngest son, Do X RIGHT NOW! (Sometimes followed by 'I'm not joking', just in case he's still not listening…) It's getting late, so forgive me if I'm stretching the limits of Siouan ablaut rules. Thanks for the examples, Sky. I know I've read through Hamilton but had forgotten that peculiarity. Help us out, friends. Iren, is there such a thing in Hochunk, too? Jill On Feb 21, 2014, at 11:24 PM, Sky Campbell > wrote: I'll show a few more examples from Hamilton that may help. The example I gave (wa-ka a-ta-ka-ræ) was from Hamilton's An Ioway Grammar, page 29. The following examples are from Hamilton's An Elementary Book of the Ioway Language. Perhaps these examples can help us find a common theme between them. I'll show imperatives with and without the extra "ka" syllable. FYI I'll also be using Hamilton's orthography. æ-ka-ræ - say it, speak (page 21) I've seen that as simply "a re" where the verb "e" for "say" changes to "a" for the imperative. na-yæ-ræ - stand up (no "ka" here) (page 22) ya-wæ-ræ - sing thou (no "ka" here) (page 23) u-yu-ræ - fill it (no "ka" here) (page 24) u-we-ra - do it (no "ka" here and is in plural form with the suffix -wi...might also be a typo since they went with "ra" rather than "ræ" unless he went for a possible female form but I'm doubting that since everything else seems to be exclusively in the male form) (page 24) hu-we-ræ - come here (no "ka" here and another plural form (page 24) ru-fæ-ræ - take it (no "ka" here) (page 24) ma-yæ-ræ - walk thou (no "ka" here (page 25) a-ta-ræ - see thou (no "ka" here and it is the same thing as my original example but without the "ka") (page 25) jwæ-me-ka-ræ - doctor me (page 29) e-cæ-ka-ræ - speak thou, tell (page 30) wo-ug-ka-ræ - work thou (page 30) ru-meg-ka-ræ - buy it (page 30) me-na-we-ræ - sit ye down (no "ka" here and is in plural form) (page 30) ke-kræ-we-ho - be ye gone (no "ka" here and is in plural form...also in the more polite imperative using "ho" instead of "re") (page 30) u-jkun-yæ-ræ - do not do it (no "ka" here) (page 31) wo-ku-we-ræ - give them (no "ka" here and is in plural form) (page 31) Ok, this should do for now. Typing out this list has given me a few tentative ideas that I need to flesh out but I'll be grateful for any input :). Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 9:33 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! That is an interesting find, and all your explanations are plausible, especially the 2nd one. I do not recall coming across this before, and I can not find any thing like it in the IOM Dictionary. The imperative works just as you say, and I know of no deviation. The collected texts from Dorsey, and those from Julia Small, a monolingual speaker, did not have examples as you have found. The mystery needs be reviewed by a higher power, namely the Siouan List, to whom I am going to cc this reply for their input by the professional experts and those who may have some explanation for this occurrence, or able to leave as a Hamilton phenomena. From: Campbell, Sky Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 10:44 AM To: Jimm G. GoodTracks Subject: Aho! Hope all is well up your way :). Quick question about something I’ve noticed in Hamilton and Irvin’s books. After some of the commands/imperatives, there is an extra syllable after the verb. For example, they have: wa-ka a-ta-ka-ræ – see the snake I have no idea what the “ka” is doing after (what would be for us) “ada”. But with Hamilton, he doesn’t differentiate between “k” and “g” so it may actually be a “g” for us. He uses this quite a bit for commands but I’m not understanding why and so far I haven’t found any clues. From what I can tell, it isn’t a form of plural since he uses –wi and he uses the singular 2nd person when the “ka” is used. And he doesn’t always use it for the singular imperative form which is what adds to my confusion. I have 3 possibilities that spring to mind. First, the “ka” might be a contracted form of “gasun” which perhaps might be indicating that whatever the speaker wants done, they want it done now. Not sure about this one since you usually see “gasun” at the beginning of a statement. Second is that the ending imperative “re” may actually be a contraction of an older form “kare/gare” and it has just stopped being used. That one is just a random guess LOL. Finally, I am wondering if the “ka” is actually perhaps “ke/ge” to refer to “in like manner” (ithke) but since it is an imperative, the “e” changes to an “a”. If so, then the above sentence would perhaps say something like “Look at the snake (in like manner).” And if so, I wonder if the context of the conversation would indicate just exactly what the “like manner” means. What do you think? Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org ­­ This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jfu at LAKHOTA.ORG Sat Feb 22 14:08:13 2014 From: jfu at LAKHOTA.ORG (Jan Ullrich) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2014 15:08:13 +0100 Subject: Serial verbs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Willem, Thank you for sharing your interesting paper on Serial Verb in Lakota. One thing that caught my eye is the statement that the V2 is always intransitive. In my experience compound verbs with transitive V2 are as common as those with intransitive V2. I thought it might be something you would want to look at if you have a chance to revise the paper. All the best Jan From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of De Reuse, Willem Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 8:29 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Serial verbs Dear David and all: Attached, a .pdf of my article on Serial Verbs in Lakota. All of the Lakota forms in this article are from field research done by others, so it never hurts to check with a Lakota speaker, if you see something you doubt. I don't think it should be a problem if I share this article to this list. If it is a problem, let me know. Full quotation available at Oxford University Press website. Use for scholarly purposes only, and do not post anywhere else. Best, Willem _____ From: Siouan Linguistics on behalf of David Kaufman Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 12:53 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives Thanks Rory and Justin for the feedback. On another note, I've also been wondering about how serial verbs are handled in Siouan in general. In the Kaw data, when two verbs come together, the second verb always conjugates for person while the first looks like it can either conjugate to match the second verb or it can stay in the third person (neutral) form. I seem to recall that in Biloxi, serial verbs *always* match, first and second verbs having the same person conjugation. What do other Siouan languages do in regards to this? Are there any hard and fast rules about this? Thanks again! Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 5:15 PM, Rory Larson wrote: Thanks for the analysis, Justin. That makes much better sense than what I had suggested. Very interesting that the Kaw (a)be particle, which should be either cognate or closely related to the Omaha (a)bi particle, can ablaut. I wasn't aware of that; it's good to know. Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mcbride, Justin Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 3:00 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives For what it's worth, I believe that what appears to be a second token of aba in the example, aba-daN is actually a different type altogether. In this case, I think it's a case of the verb e(e), 'to say', plus the -(a)be completive aspect marker plus the conjunction -(a)daN, 'and' [e(e)-(a)be-(a)daN > aba-daN]. If so, then, that one really is just 's/he said and,' and the first one is actually the subject marker. But that's not to say that there aren't other examples of the quotative use of subject markers in Ks, even within the same text. Here's an example of quotative akHa: iccikkitaNga akha oo aNs^i waali miNkHe akHa. The Old Man said, "Oh, I'm getting fat." This case is much clearer to my way of thinking because there are two verbal auxiliaries marking the same state (in this case, at rest) back-to-back, one of which refers to 1st person (miNkHe, part of the quotation), and one 3rd person (akHa, marks quotation). It's curious to note that in the audio for this, the speaker laughs after miNkHe and then almost catches her breath before saying akHa, which would indicate to me that she felt it was essential for concluding the sentence. It's interesting to me in that it seems that the entire quoted clause is acting almost like a verb following the canonical pattern (subject) SUBJ (verb) AUX, where SUBJ and AUX match shape in the continuative aspect, as in s^idoz^iNga akHa ghaage akHa, 'the boy is crying.' -jtm On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 1:50 PM, Rory Larson wrote: Hi Dave, In Omaha and Ponca, the corresponding article is amá, where you have abá. As with Kaw, it tends to imply 'moving/absent'. But we also have another particle, apparently pronounced the same way, coming at the end of the sentence, that implies that the foregoing is hearsay rather than solid fact. It can stand by itself, or it can be coupled with the 'allegedly' particle bi to make the common ending for 3rd person hearsay action, biama. I notice the accent changes to the first syllable in the second case of your example. I wonder if that could be underlyingly a-aba in that case? The first would be the ablauted version of 'he said it', followed by either the Old Man's article abá or a 'hearsay' particle as in OP. One problem with that would be that the 'hearsay' amá in OP shouldn't cause a preceding verb to ablaut. My $0.02. Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of David Kaufman Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 1:30 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives Hi all, I have a question re: a curious structure in Kaw, and whether anything like it occurs in other Dhegihan or even non-Dhegihan Siouan languages. The structure involves the articles akhá and abá, used for subjects in Kaw and usually translated 'the', the first being roughly for 'standing/sitting' and the other for 'moving/absent'. However, in Kaw, these subject articles also somehow seem to have become used as quotatives, or 's/he said.' Here is an example sentence with gloss: Icíkitanga abá, "Anyáxtaga-édan," ába-dan, nanstábe. Old.Man said bite.me-then said-then kicked.him The Old Man said, "Then bite me," and he kicked him. So abá, which is normally used for 'moving' subjects and is usually translated 'the', is now being used for 's/he said.' Any thoughts on this, esp. from other Dhegihan perspectives, or other Siouan languages that might have some similar usage? Thanks! David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Sat Feb 22 14:52:06 2014 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm Goodtracks) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2014 08:52:06 -0600 Subject: Aho! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hánwe Pi: Jill says: I can't help but think that it's somehow ga- the locational prefix for something you can see, but not directly next to 1st and 2nd person (gaida 'over there (but not yonder)', gaigu, etc. - which could ultimately be related to gasuN also. It might clarify actual location, or be used metaphorically for 'now/soon' even by itself. Now applying that to the sentences, æ-ka-ræ - say it, speak = á re/ é ga re (Say it now!) jwæ-me-ka-ræ - doctor me = swéhi re/ swémi ga re (Doctor me now!) e-cæ-ka-ræ - speak thou, tell = i^cha re/ i^che ga re (Speak now!) ~~ [Jill, in the imperative, is it not ~ it^a re ?????] wo-ug-ka-ræ - work thou = wa^ún ne/ wa^ún ga re (Work it now!) ru-meg-ka-ræ - buy it = rúmi re/ rúmi ga re (Buy it now!) It does seem to apply in application above. Now, if that being so, why o’ why does it not show up in any other texts, except Hamilton? I suppose it could have been a spoken form of the period (pre- 1850’s) that was used and then dropped by latter generations. It is noted in the dictionary, these applications that may produce a “ga”: ga-... prf. just; exactly. **SEE: gašún; gaída. ga^é v.i. say as follows. Hinkúñi ga^é: “Gá^e koíth^in hinnahá^e,” é ki, My grandmother said as follows: “He is the one we were talking about.” ga^é^a v.t. say as follows to another. They said as follows to him…, Ga^igáñe… ke. Hintágwa ga^ihé^a: “Áannegradànwe hñe ke,” ihé ke, I said as follows to my grandson: “You will give me (your own one) your attention,” I told him. ga^íge; gáigé v.i. say that (in bad sence, slander, reproof). Áre iwáhuŋe škúñi ke Wan^síge ga^igeñe ke, Some people say that he does not know (anything, but in truth, the real facts support the opposite is true). Héda wánsha xóñitan gawٕígena wakánda píškúñi warúdhe hñe ke, And that old man preacher rebuked them, saying the devil was going to get them for their sins. gá iráyin; ga^írayin v.t. think that; make up one’s mind. Gá ihádayin nu^á kó^o ha^ún škúñi ke, although, I have made up my mind, I have not yet done it (the work). Sré hñe israyin je, Do you think that you will go? **SEE: iráyin; wáge. gá iré v.t. think that; think as follows. Tanhédan gratógre hinnáwišge pí nu^áre ga iháre ke, If we were all going together, I think that it would be good. **SEE: iré; gaída. Jimm From: Greer, Jill Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2014 1:03 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! Hi, Sky, Interesting! This is my gut response, without any new examples unfortunately. I can't help but think that it's somehow ga- the locational prefix for something you can see, but not directly next to 1st and 2nd person (gaida 'over there (but not yonder)', gaigu, etc. - which could ultimately be related to gasuN also. It might clarify actual location, or be used metaphorically for 'now/soon' even by itself. Regarding your concern about it occurring after the verb, I can think of the common phrase Are gasuN khi 'It's okay/that's all right' , which looks like it could be in other parts of a sentence, too, besides the beginning? Your last idea seems possible also, about thge 'to be thus' which could be a result ablauting before the command? I don't know if the initial fricative was missed by Hamilton, or was deleted. (Sort of like 'Walk this way' :) …) Is there any precedent in other Siouan languages for an emphatic form related to IOM kHe huN' ? I had the thought IF it were abbreviated to kHe, and occurred next to the -re 'command form', it could ablaut to kha , and make an emphatic command. (I have developed a personal English variant of that myself with my youngest son, Do X RIGHT NOW! (Sometimes followed by 'I'm not joking', just in case he's still not listening…) It's getting late, so forgive me if I'm stretching the limits of Siouan ablaut rules. Thanks for the examples, Sky. I know I've read through Hamilton but had forgotten that peculiarity. Help us out, friends. Iren, is there such a thing in Hochunk, too? Jill On Feb 21, 2014, at 11:24 PM, Sky Campbell wrote: I'll show a few more examples from Hamilton that may help. The example I gave (wa-ka a-ta-ka-ræ) was from Hamilton's An Ioway Grammar, page 29. The following examples are from Hamilton's An Elementary Book of the Ioway Language. Perhaps these examples can help us find a common theme between them. I'll show imperatives with and without the extra "ka" syllable. FYI I'll also be using Hamilton's orthography. æ-ka-ræ - say it, speak (page 21) I've seen that as simply "a re" where the verb "e" for "say" changes to "a" for the imperative. na-yæ-ræ - stand up (no "ka" here) (page 22) ya-wæ-ræ - sing thou (no "ka" here) (page 23) u-yu-ræ - fill it (no "ka" here) (page 24) u-we-ra - do it (no "ka" here and is in plural form with the suffix -wi...might also be a typo since they went with "ra" rather than "ræ" unless he went for a possible female form but I'm doubting that since everything else seems to be exclusively in the male form) (page 24) hu-we-ræ - come here (no "ka" here and another plural form (page 24) ru-fæ-ræ - take it (no "ka" here) (page 24) ma-yæ-ræ - walk thou (no "ka" here (page 25) a-ta-ræ - see thou (no "ka" here and it is the same thing as my original example but without the "ka") (page 25) jwæ-me-ka-ræ - doctor me (page 29) e-cæ-ka-ræ - speak thou, tell (page 30) wo-ug-ka-ræ - work thou (page 30) ru-meg-ka-ræ - buy it (page 30) me-na-we-ræ - sit ye down (no "ka" here and is in plural form) (page 30) ke-kræ-we-ho - be ye gone (no "ka" here and is in plural form...also in the more polite imperative using "ho" instead of "re") (page 30) u-jkun-yæ-ræ - do not do it (no "ka" here) (page 31) wo-ku-we-ræ - give them (no "ka" here and is in plural form) (page 31) Ok, this should do for now. Typing out this list has given me a few tentative ideas that I need to flesh out but I'll be grateful for any input :). Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 9:33 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! That is an interesting find, and all your explanations are plausible, especially the 2nd one. I do not recall coming across this before, and I can not find any thing like it in the IOM Dictionary. The imperative works just as you say, and I know of no deviation. The collected texts from Dorsey, and those from Julia Small, a monolingual speaker, did not have examples as you have found. The mystery needs be reviewed by a higher power, namely the Siouan List, to whom I am going to cc this reply for their input by the professional experts and those who may have some explanation for this occurrence, or able to leave as a Hamilton phenomena. From: Campbell, Sky Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 10:44 AM To: Jimm G. GoodTracks Subject: Aho! Hope all is well up your way J. Quick question about something I’ve noticed in Hamilton and Irvin’s books. After some of the commands/imperatives, there is an extra syllable after the verb. For example, they have: wa-ka a-ta-ka-ræ – see the snake I have no idea what the “ka” is doing after (what would be for us) “ada”. But with Hamilton, he doesn’t differentiate between “k” and “g” so it may actually be a “g” for us. He uses this quite a bit for commands but I’m not understanding why and so far I haven’t found any clues. From what I can tell, it isn’t a form of plural since he uses –wi and he uses the singular 2nd person when the “ka” is used. And he doesn’t always use it for the singular imperative form which is what adds to my confusion. I have 3 possibilities that spring to mind. First, the “ka” might be a contracted form of “gasun” which perhaps might be indicating that whatever the speaker wants done, they want it done now. Not sure about this one since you usually see “gasun” at the beginning of a statement. Second is that the ending imperative “re” may actually be a contraction of an older form “kare/gare” and it has just stopped being used. That one is just a random guess LOL. Finally, I am wondering if the “ka” is actually perhaps “ke/ge” to refer to “in like manner” (ithke) but since it is an imperative, the “e” changes to an “a”. If so, then the above sentence would perhaps say something like “Look at the snake (in like manner).” And if so, I wonder if the context of the conversation would indicate just exactly what the “like manner” means. What do you think? Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org ­­ This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From okibjonathan at YAHOO.COM Sat Feb 22 15:10:40 2014 From: okibjonathan at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Holmes) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2014 07:10:40 -0800 Subject: Oglala Lakota speaker breaks down a term. Message-ID: "Wo = Collectively. Wa = Pure and sacred. Hunku = Teachings through mother or elderly from the ancestors. Ki = That which is. Ye = Forever into the future. {Therefore} Wowahunkukiye = Collectively the pure and sacred teachings of our ancestors which is forever into the future. An elder's way of reminding us the reality of life and how we must conduct ourselves as Lakota people." -- Rick Two Dogs (Oglala Lakota)   "If you enjoy your freedom, thank a Vet." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU Sat Feb 22 16:46:36 2014 From: WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU (De Reuse, Willem) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2014 16:46:36 +0000 Subject: Serial verbs In-Reply-To: <009d01cf2fd7$87161840$954248c0$@org> Message-ID: Dear Jan: Good hearing from you. Thanks for pointing this out. I do not now know why I could have said that V2 is always intransitive. Clearly, V2 is transitive in example (11) in this paper!!! Oh my! Editors of this volume did not catch this either. Oh well, such is life, one makes mistakes that no one catches! It does happen to be the case that in the corpus of data I used intransitive V2s were more common. If I ever revise this, I would fix this, and try to reelicit every sentence with a native speaker myself. Anyway, it did put Lakota on the map as a language with quite a bit of verb serialization. All the best, Willem ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics on behalf of Jan Ullrich Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2014 8:08 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Serial verbs Dear Willem, Thank you for sharing your interesting paper on Serial Verb in Lakota. One thing that caught my eye is the statement that the V2 is always intransitive. In my experience compound verbs with transitive V2 are as common as those with intransitive V2. I thought it might be something you would want to look at if you have a chance to revise the paper. All the best Jan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Sat Feb 22 18:26:12 2014 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM (Sky Campbell) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2014 12:26:12 -0600 Subject: Aho! In-Reply-To: <585FE42896DD4ECA978404DD37D2D190@AsusLaptop> Message-ID: Going along with the "now" idea, I'm going to keep an eye out for the full form of "gasun" in these instances along with anything that will give some clues for this. I've been working a lot with Hamilton's material lately so I'll be sure to go over it thoroughly. As far as "ich'a re/it'a re", I wonder if these forms have something to do with the d/t changing to ch/j (IE te/che for buffalo and inde/inje for face) with some terms. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2014 8:52 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! Hánwe Pi: Jill says: I can't help but think that it's somehow ga- the locational prefix for something you can see, but not directly next to 1st and 2nd person (gaida 'over there (but not yonder)', gaigu, etc. - which could ultimately be related to gasuN also. It might clarify actual location, or be used metaphorically for 'now/soon' even by itself. Now applying that to the sentences, æ-ka-ræ - say it, speak = á re/ é ga re (Say it now!) jwæ-me-ka-ræ - doctor me = swéhi re/ swémi ga re (Doctor me now!) e-cæ-ka-ræ - speak thou, tell = i^cha re/ i^che ga re (Speak now!) ~~ [Jill, in the imperative, is it not ~ it^a re ?????] wo-ug-ka-ræ - work thou = wa^ún ne/ wa^ún ga re (Work it now!) ru-meg-ka-ræ - buy it = rúmi re/ rúmi ga re (Buy it now!) It does seem to apply in application above. Now, if that being so, why o’ why does it not show up in any other texts, except Hamilton? I suppose it could have been a spoken form of the period (pre- 1850’s) that was used and then dropped by latter generations. It is noted in the dictionary, these applications that may produce a “ga”: ga-... prf. just; exactly. **SEE: gašún; gaída. ga^é v.i. say as follows. Hinkúñi ga^é: “Gá^e koíth^in hinnahá^e,” é ki, My grandmother said as follows: “He is the one we were talking about.” ga^é^a v.t. say as follows to another. They said as follows to him…, Ga^igáñe… ke. Hintágwa ga^ihé^a: “Áannegradànwe hñe ke,” ihé ke, I said as follows to my grandson: “You will give me (your own one) your attention,” I told him. ga^íge; gáigé v.i. say that (in bad sence, slander, reproof). Áre iwáhuŋe škúñi ke Wan^síge ga^igeñe ke, Some people say that he does not know (anything, but in truth, the real facts support the opposite is true). Héda wánsha xóñitan gawٕígena wakánda píškúñi warúdhe hñe ke, And that old man preacher rebuked them, saying the devil was going to get them for their sins. gá iráyin; ga^írayin v.t. think that; make up one’s mind. Gá ihádayin nu^á kó^o ha^ún škúñi ke, although, I have made up my mind, I have not yet done it (the work). Sré hñe israyin je, Do you think that you will go? **SEE: iráyin; wáge. gá iré v.t. think that; think as follows. Tanhédan gratógre hinnáwišge pí nu^áre ga iháre ke, If we were all going together, I think that it would be good. **SEE: iré; gaída. Jimm From: Greer, Jill Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2014 1:03 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! Hi, Sky, Interesting! This is my gut response, without any new examples unfortunately. I can't help but think that it's somehow ga- the locational prefix for something you can see, but not directly next to 1st and 2nd person (gaida 'over there (but not yonder)', gaigu, etc. - which could ultimately be related to gasuN also. It might clarify actual location, or be used metaphorically for 'now/soon' even by itself. Regarding your concern about it occurring after the verb, I can think of the common phrase Are gasuN khi 'It's okay/that's all right' , which looks like it could be in other parts of a sentence, too, besides the beginning? Your last idea seems possible also, about thge 'to be thus' which could be a result ablauting before the command? I don't know if the initial fricative was missed by Hamilton, or was deleted. (Sort of like 'Walk this way' :) …) Is there any precedent in other Siouan languages for an emphatic form related to IOM kHe huN' ? I had the thought IF it were abbreviated to kHe, and occurred next to the -re 'command form', it could ablaut to kha , and make an emphatic command. (I have developed a personal English variant of that myself with my youngest son, Do X RIGHT NOW! (Sometimes followed by 'I'm not joking', just in case he's still not listening…) It's getting late, so forgive me if I'm stretching the limits of Siouan ablaut rules. Thanks for the examples, Sky. I know I've read through Hamilton but had forgotten that peculiarity. Help us out, friends. Iren, is there such a thing in Hochunk, too? Jill On Feb 21, 2014, at 11:24 PM, Sky Campbell wrote: I'll show a few more examples from Hamilton that may help. The example I gave (wa-ka a-ta-ka-ræ) was from Hamilton's An Ioway Grammar, page 29. The following examples are from Hamilton's An Elementary Book of the Ioway Language. Perhaps these examples can help us find a common theme between them. I'll show imperatives with and without the extra "ka" syllable. FYI I'll also be using Hamilton's orthography. æ-ka-ræ - say it, speak (page 21) I've seen that as simply "a re" where the verb "e" for "say" changes to "a" for the imperative. na-yæ-ræ - stand up (no "ka" here) (page 22) ya-wæ-ræ - sing thou (no "ka" here) (page 23) u-yu-ræ - fill it (no "ka" here) (page 24) u-we-ra - do it (no "ka" here and is in plural form with the suffix -wi...might also be a typo since they went with "ra" rather than "ræ" unless he went for a possible female form but I'm doubting that since everything else seems to be exclusively in the male form) (page 24) hu-we-ræ - come here (no "ka" here and another plural form (page 24) ru-fæ-ræ - take it (no "ka" here) (page 24) ma-yæ-ræ - walk thou (no "ka" here (page 25) a-ta-ræ - see thou (no "ka" here and it is the same thing as my original example but without the "ka") (page 25) jwæ-me-ka-ræ - doctor me (page 29) e-cæ-ka-ræ - speak thou, tell (page 30) wo-ug-ka-ræ - work thou (page 30) ru-meg-ka-ræ - buy it (page 30) me-na-we-ræ - sit ye down (no "ka" here and is in plural form) (page 30) ke-kræ-we-ho - be ye gone (no "ka" here and is in plural form...also in the more polite imperative using "ho" instead of "re") (page 30) u-jkun-yæ-ræ - do not do it (no "ka" here) (page 31) wo-ku-we-ræ - give them (no "ka" here and is in plural form) (page 31) Ok, this should do for now. Typing out this list has given me a few tentative ideas that I need to flesh out but I'll be grateful for any input :). Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 9:33 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! That is an interesting find, and all your explanations are plausible, especially the 2nd one. I do not recall coming across this before, and I can not find any thing like it in the IOM Dictionary. The imperative works just as you say, and I know of no deviation. The collected texts from Dorsey, and those from Julia Small, a monolingual speaker, did not have examples as you have found. The mystery needs be reviewed by a higher power, namely the Siouan List, to whom I am going to cc this reply for their input by the professional experts and those who may have some explanation for this occurrence, or able to leave as a Hamilton phenomena. From: Campbell, Sky Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 10:44 AM To: Jimm G. GoodTracks Subject: Aho! Hope all is well up your way J. Quick question about something I’ve noticed in Hamilton and Irvin’s books. After some of the commands/imperatives, there is an extra syllable after the verb. For example, they have: wa-ka a-ta-ka-ræ – see the snake I have no idea what the “ka” is doing after (what would be for us) “ada”. But with Hamilton, he doesn’t differentiate between “k” and “g” so it may actually be a “g” for us. He uses this quite a bit for commands but I’m not understanding why and so far I haven’t found any clues. From what I can tell, it isn’t a form of plural since he uses –wi and he uses the singular 2nd person when the “ka” is used. And he doesn’t always use it for the singular imperative form which is what adds to my confusion. I have 3 possibilities that spring to mind. First, the “ka” might be a contracted form of “gasun” which perhaps might be indicating that whatever the speaker wants done, they want it done now. Not sure about this one since you usually see “gasun” at the beginning of a statement. Second is that the ending imperative “re” may actually be a contraction of an older form “kare/gare” and it has just stopped being used. That one is just a random guess LOL. Finally, I am wondering if the “ka” is actually perhaps “ke/ge” to refer to “in like manner” (ithke) but since it is an imperative, the “e” changes to an “a”. If so, then the above sentence would perhaps say something like “Look at the snake (in like manner).” And if so, I wonder if the context of the conversation would indicate just exactly what the “like manner” means. What do you think? Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org ­­ This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvkanth2010 at gmail.com Sat Feb 22 18:30:35 2014 From: dvkanth2010 at gmail.com (David Kaufman) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2014 12:30:35 -0600 Subject: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: That is interesting, Bryan! Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 3:22 PM, Bryan James Gordon wrote: > Digging through 19th century Omaha and Ponca texts I've found evidence for > a role for subcategorization, that is, some final verbs in some contexts > tend to follow conjugated verbs, while > others tend to follow "infinitives". Our resident syntacticians may have > more precise observations. Catherine? > On Feb 21, 2014 1:04 PM, "David Kaufman" wrote: > >> Rory, >> >> So it seems like both forms conjugated may have been the original method >> (pre-20th century), but, perhaps due to the increasing influence of >> English, it can now be just final verb? Interesting how these things come >> about. >> >> Dave >> >> David Kaufman >> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >> >> >> On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 1:28 PM, Rory Larson wrote: >> >>> Dave, >>> >>> >>> >>> What you describe for Kaw seems to be what my experience with Omaha has >>> been. As I recall, elicited statements usually have the first verb in >>> neutral form, but if you ask the speakers which way is better, giving both >>> options, they generally prefer the one with both verbs conjugated. I think >>> the latter is the way it normally appears in Dorsey (19th century). >>> >>> >>> >>> Of course, the real power of the old (?) system is that the first verb >>> can conjugate for different subjects and objects than the second one, as in >>> "I want you to give me the toy" = Toy-the me-you-give I-want. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Rory >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf >>> Of *David Kaufman >>> *Sent:* Friday, February 21, 2014 12:54 PM >>> >>> *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU >>> *Subject:* Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks Rory and Justin for the feedback. >>> >>> >>> >>> On another note, I've also been wondering about how serial verbs are >>> handled in Siouan in general. In the Kaw data, when two verbs come >>> together, the second verb always conjugates for person while the first >>> looks like it can either conjugate to match the second verb or it can stay >>> in the third person (neutral) form. I seem to recall that in Biloxi, >>> serial verbs *always* match, first and second verbs having the same person >>> conjugation. What do other Siouan languages do in regards to this? Are >>> there any hard and fast rules about this? >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks again! >>> >>> >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> >>> David Kaufman >>> >>> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >>> >>> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 5:15 PM, Rory Larson wrote: >>> >>> Thanks for the analysis, Justin. That makes much better sense than what >>> I had suggested. Very interesting that the Kaw (a)be particle, which >>> should be either cognate or closely related to the Omaha (a)bi particle, >>> can ablaut. I wasn't aware of that; it's good to know. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Rory >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf >>> Of *Mcbride, Justin >>> *Sent:* Thursday, February 20, 2014 3:00 PM >>> *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU >>> *Subject:* Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives >>> >>> >>> >>> For what it's worth, I believe that what appears to be a second token of >>> aba in the example, aba-daN is actually a different type altogether. In >>> this case, I think it's a case of the verb e(e), 'to say', plus the -(a)be >>> completive aspect marker plus the conjunction -(a)daN, 'and' >>> [e(e)-(a)be-(a)daN > aba-daN]. If so, then, that one really is just 's/he >>> said and,' and the first one is actually the subject marker. But that's not >>> to say that there aren't other examples of the quotative use of subject >>> markers in Ks, even within the same text. Here's an example of quotative >>> akHa: >>> >>> >>> >>> iccikkitaNga akha oo aNs^i waali miNkHe akHa. >>> >>> The Old Man said, "Oh, I'm getting fat." >>> >>> >>> >>> This case is much clearer to my way of thinking because there are two >>> verbal auxiliaries marking the same state (in this case, at rest) >>> back-to-back, one of which refers to 1st person (miNkHe, part of the >>> quotation), and one 3rd person (akHa, marks quotation). It's curious to >>> note that in the audio for this, the speaker laughs after miNkHe and then >>> almost catches her breath before saying akHa, which would indicate to me >>> that she felt it was essential for concluding the sentence. It's >>> interesting to me in that it seems that the entire quoted clause is acting >>> almost like a verb following the canonical pattern (subject) SUBJ (verb) >>> AUX, where SUBJ and AUX match shape in the continuative aspect, as in >>> s^idoz^iNga akHa ghaage akHa, 'the boy is crying.' >>> >>> >>> >>> -jtm >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 1:50 PM, Rory Larson wrote: >>> >>> Hi Dave, >>> >>> >>> >>> In Omaha and Ponca, the corresponding article is amá, where you have >>> abá. As with Kaw, it tends to imply 'moving/absent'. But we also have >>> another particle, apparently pronounced the same way, coming at the end of >>> the sentence, that implies that the foregoing is hearsay rather than solid >>> fact. It can stand by itself, or it can be coupled with the 'allegedly' >>> particle bi to make the common ending for 3rd person hearsay action, >>> biama. >>> >>> >>> >>> I notice the accent changes to the first syllable in the second case of >>> your example. I wonder if that could be underlyingly a-aba in that case? >>> The first would be the ablauted version of 'he said it', followed by either >>> the Old Man's article abá or a 'hearsay' particle as in OP. One problem >>> with that would be that the 'hearsay' amá in OP shouldn't cause a preceding >>> verb to ablaut. >>> >>> >>> >>> My $0.02. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Rory >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf >>> Of *David Kaufman >>> *Sent:* Thursday, February 20, 2014 1:30 PM >>> *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU >>> *Subject:* Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> >>> >>> I have a question re: a curious structure in Kaw, and whether anything >>> like it occurs in other Dhegihan or even non-Dhegihan Siouan languages. >>> The structure involves the articles akhá and abá, used for subjects in Kaw >>> and usually translated 'the', the first being roughly for >>> 'standing/sitting' and the other for 'moving/absent'. However, in Kaw, >>> these subject articles also somehow seem to have become used as quotatives, >>> or 's/he said.' Here is an example sentence with gloss: >>> >>> >>> >>> *Icíkitanga abá, "Anyáxtaga-édan," ába-dan, nanstábe.* >>> >>> Old.Man said bite.me-then said-then kicked.him >>> >>> The Old Man said, "Then bite me," and he kicked him. >>> >>> >>> >>> So abá, which is normally used for 'moving' subjects and is usually >>> translated 'the', is now being used for 's/he said.' >>> >>> >>> >>> Any thoughts on this, esp. from other Dhegihan perspectives, or other >>> Siouan languages that might have some similar usage? >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> David Kaufman >>> >>> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >>> >>> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU Sat Feb 22 19:15:16 2014 From: linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU (Bryan James Gordon) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2014 12:15:16 -0700 Subject: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I made a list somewhere of different verbs with different verb subcategorization behaviors to look into later, and I can't remember where it is, but here's an interesting example: Uxthéxchi gthí 'íthathe wíkaⁿbtha. "You promised to come back real soon and I want you to." *Gthí *"come back" is not conjugated. *'Íthathe *"you promised" has agent conjugation. *Wíkaⁿbtha *has agent and dative conjugation, and the dative "to you" is raised from the subject of "promised". Not only does this example show both a conjugated and an unconjugated subordinate verb, but it also raises questions about the semantics of these constructions. It would seem that we cannot simply assume the syntactic complement of *gáⁿtha *"desire" is also its semantic complement, because the semantic complement here is clearly "come back" and not "you promised". BJG 2014-02-22 11:30 GMT-07:00 David Kaufman : > That is interesting, Bryan! > > Dave > > David Kaufman > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > > On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 3:22 PM, Bryan James Gordon wrote: > >> Digging through 19th century Omaha and Ponca texts I've found evidence >> for a role for subcategorization, that is, some final verbs in some >> contexts tend to follow conjugated verbs, while >> others tend to follow "infinitives". Our resident syntacticians may have >> more precise observations. Catherine? >> On Feb 21, 2014 1:04 PM, "David Kaufman" wrote: >> >>> Rory, >>> >>> So it seems like both forms conjugated may have been the original method >>> (pre-20th century), but, perhaps due to the increasing influence of >>> English, it can now be just final verb? Interesting how these things come >>> about. >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> David Kaufman >>> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >>> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 1:28 PM, Rory Larson wrote: >>> >>>> Dave, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What you describe for Kaw seems to be what my experience with Omaha has >>>> been. As I recall, elicited statements usually have the first verb in >>>> neutral form, but if you ask the speakers which way is better, giving both >>>> options, they generally prefer the one with both verbs conjugated. I think >>>> the latter is the way it normally appears in Dorsey (19th century). >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Of course, the real power of the old (?) system is that the first verb >>>> can conjugate for different subjects and objects than the second one, as in >>>> “I want you to give me the toy” = Toy-the me-you-give I-want. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Rory >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf >>>> Of *David Kaufman >>>> *Sent:* Friday, February 21, 2014 12:54 PM >>>> >>>> *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU >>>> *Subject:* Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks Rory and Justin for the feedback. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On another note, I've also been wondering about how serial verbs are >>>> handled in Siouan in general. In the Kaw data, when two verbs come >>>> together, the second verb always conjugates for person while the first >>>> looks like it can either conjugate to match the second verb or it can stay >>>> in the third person (neutral) form. I seem to recall that in Biloxi, >>>> serial verbs *always* match, first and second verbs having the same person >>>> conjugation. What do other Siouan languages do in regards to this? Are >>>> there any hard and fast rules about this? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks again! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Dave >>>> >>>> >>>> David Kaufman >>>> >>>> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >>>> >>>> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 5:15 PM, Rory Larson wrote: >>>> >>>> Thanks for the analysis, Justin. That makes much better sense than >>>> what I had suggested. Very interesting that the Kaw (a)be particle, which >>>> should be either cognate or closely related to the Omaha (a)bi particle, >>>> can ablaut. I wasn’t aware of that; it’s good to know. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Rory >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf >>>> Of *Mcbride, Justin >>>> *Sent:* Thursday, February 20, 2014 3:00 PM >>>> *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU >>>> *Subject:* Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> For what it's worth, I believe that what appears to be a second token >>>> of aba in the example, aba-daN is actually a different type altogether. In >>>> this case, I think it's a case of the verb e(e), 'to say', plus the -(a)be >>>> completive aspect marker plus the conjunction -(a)daN, 'and' >>>> [e(e)-(a)be-(a)daN > aba-daN]. If so, then, that one really is just 's/he >>>> said and,' and the first one is actually the subject marker. But that's not >>>> to say that there aren't other examples of the quotative use of subject >>>> markers in Ks, even within the same text. Here's an example of quotative >>>> akHa: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> iccikkitaNga akha oo aNs^i waali miNkHe akHa. >>>> >>>> The Old Man said, "Oh, I'm getting fat." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> This case is much clearer to my way of thinking because there are two >>>> verbal auxiliaries marking the same state (in this case, at rest) >>>> back-to-back, one of which refers to 1st person (miNkHe, part of the >>>> quotation), and one 3rd person (akHa, marks quotation). It's curious to >>>> note that in the audio for this, the speaker laughs after miNkHe and then >>>> almost catches her breath before saying akHa, which would indicate to me >>>> that she felt it was essential for concluding the sentence. It's >>>> interesting to me in that it seems that the entire quoted clause is acting >>>> almost like a verb following the canonical pattern (subject) SUBJ (verb) >>>> AUX, where SUBJ and AUX match shape in the continuative aspect, as in >>>> s^idoz^iNga akHa ghaage akHa, 'the boy is crying.' >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -jtm >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 1:50 PM, Rory Larson wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Dave, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> In Omaha and Ponca, the corresponding article is amá, where you have >>>> abá. As with Kaw, it tends to imply ‘moving/absent’. But we also have >>>> another particle, apparently pronounced the same way, coming at the end of >>>> the sentence, that implies that the foregoing is hearsay rather than solid >>>> fact. It can stand by itself, or it can be coupled with the ‘allegedly’ >>>> particle bi to make the common ending for 3rd person hearsay action, >>>> biama. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I notice the accent changes to the first syllable in the second case of >>>> your example. I wonder if that could be underlyingly a-aba in that case? >>>> The first would be the ablauted version of ‘he said it’, followed by either >>>> the Old Man’s article abá or a ‘hearsay’ particle as in OP. One problem >>>> with that would be that the ‘hearsay’ amá in OP shouldn’t cause a preceding >>>> verb to ablaut. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> My $0.02. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Rory >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf >>>> Of *David Kaufman >>>> *Sent:* Thursday, February 20, 2014 1:30 PM >>>> *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU >>>> *Subject:* Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I have a question re: a curious structure in Kaw, and whether anything >>>> like it occurs in other Dhegihan or even non-Dhegihan Siouan languages. >>>> The structure involves the articles akhá and abá, used for subjects in Kaw >>>> and usually translated 'the', the first being roughly for >>>> 'standing/sitting' and the other for 'moving/absent'. However, in Kaw, >>>> these subject articles also somehow seem to have become used as quotatives, >>>> or 's/he said.' Here is an example sentence with gloss: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *Icíkitanga abá, “Anyáxtaga-édan,” ába-dan, nanstábe.* >>>> >>>> Old.Man said bite.me-then said-then kicked.him >>>> >>>> The Old Man said, “Then bite me,” and he kicked him. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> So abá, which is normally used for 'moving' subjects and is usually >>>> translated 'the', is now being used for 's/he said.' >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Any thoughts on this, esp. from other Dhegihan perspectives, or other >>>> Siouan languages that might have some similar usage? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> David Kaufman >>>> >>>> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >>>> >>>> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> > -- *********************************************************** Bryan James Gordon, MA Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology University of Arizona *********************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU Sat Feb 22 19:15:59 2014 From: linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU (Bryan James Gordon) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2014 12:15:59 -0700 Subject: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: (Forgot the citation: Zhábe-ska to Wahé'áⁿ August 1878, JD 1890:476.4) 2014-02-22 12:15 GMT-07:00 Bryan James Gordon : > I made a list somewhere of different verbs with different verb > subcategorization behaviors to look into later, and I can't remember where > it is, but here's an interesting example: > > Uxthéxchi gthí 'íthathe wíkaⁿbtha. "You promised to come back real soon > and I want you to." > > *Gthí *"come back" is not conjugated. *'Íthathe *"you promised" has agent > conjugation. *Wíkaⁿbtha *has agent and dative conjugation, and the dative > "to you" is raised from the subject of "promised". Not only does this > example show both a conjugated and an unconjugated subordinate verb, but it > also raises questions about the semantics of these constructions. It would > seem that we cannot simply assume the syntactic complement of *gáⁿtha *"desire" > is also its semantic complement, because the semantic complement here is > clearly "come back" and not "you promised". > > BJG > > > 2014-02-22 11:30 GMT-07:00 David Kaufman : > > That is interesting, Bryan! >> >> Dave >> >> David Kaufman >> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >> >> >> On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 3:22 PM, Bryan James Gordon wrote: >> >>> Digging through 19th century Omaha and Ponca texts I've found evidence >>> for a role for subcategorization, that is, some final verbs in some >>> contexts tend to follow conjugated verbs, while >>> others tend to follow "infinitives". Our resident syntacticians may have >>> more precise observations. Catherine? >>> On Feb 21, 2014 1:04 PM, "David Kaufman" wrote: >>> >>>> Rory, >>>> >>>> So it seems like both forms conjugated may have been the original >>>> method (pre-20th century), but, perhaps due to the increasing influence of >>>> English, it can now be just final verb? Interesting how these things come >>>> about. >>>> >>>> Dave >>>> >>>> David Kaufman >>>> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >>>> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 1:28 PM, Rory Larson wrote: >>>> >>>>> Dave, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> What you describe for Kaw seems to be what my experience with Omaha >>>>> has been. As I recall, elicited statements usually have the first verb in >>>>> neutral form, but if you ask the speakers which way is better, giving both >>>>> options, they generally prefer the one with both verbs conjugated. I think >>>>> the latter is the way it normally appears in Dorsey (19th century). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Of course, the real power of the old (?) system is that the first verb >>>>> can conjugate for different subjects and objects than the second one, as in >>>>> “I want you to give me the toy” = Toy-the me-you-give I-want. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Rory >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On >>>>> Behalf Of *David Kaufman >>>>> *Sent:* Friday, February 21, 2014 12:54 PM >>>>> >>>>> *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU >>>>> *Subject:* Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks Rory and Justin for the feedback. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On another note, I've also been wondering about how serial verbs are >>>>> handled in Siouan in general. In the Kaw data, when two verbs come >>>>> together, the second verb always conjugates for person while the first >>>>> looks like it can either conjugate to match the second verb or it can stay >>>>> in the third person (neutral) form. I seem to recall that in Biloxi, >>>>> serial verbs *always* match, first and second verbs having the same person >>>>> conjugation. What do other Siouan languages do in regards to this? Are >>>>> there any hard and fast rules about this? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks again! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Dave >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> David Kaufman >>>>> >>>>> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >>>>> >>>>> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 5:15 PM, Rory Larson wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for the analysis, Justin. That makes much better sense than >>>>> what I had suggested. Very interesting that the Kaw (a)be particle, which >>>>> should be either cognate or closely related to the Omaha (a)bi particle, >>>>> can ablaut. I wasn’t aware of that; it’s good to know. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Rory >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On >>>>> Behalf Of *Mcbride, Justin >>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, February 20, 2014 3:00 PM >>>>> *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU >>>>> *Subject:* Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> For what it's worth, I believe that what appears to be a second token >>>>> of aba in the example, aba-daN is actually a different type altogether. In >>>>> this case, I think it's a case of the verb e(e), 'to say', plus the -(a)be >>>>> completive aspect marker plus the conjunction -(a)daN, 'and' >>>>> [e(e)-(a)be-(a)daN > aba-daN]. If so, then, that one really is just 's/he >>>>> said and,' and the first one is actually the subject marker. But that's not >>>>> to say that there aren't other examples of the quotative use of subject >>>>> markers in Ks, even within the same text. Here's an example of quotative >>>>> akHa: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> iccikkitaNga akha oo aNs^i waali miNkHe akHa. >>>>> >>>>> The Old Man said, "Oh, I'm getting fat." >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> This case is much clearer to my way of thinking because there are two >>>>> verbal auxiliaries marking the same state (in this case, at rest) >>>>> back-to-back, one of which refers to 1st person (miNkHe, part of the >>>>> quotation), and one 3rd person (akHa, marks quotation). It's curious to >>>>> note that in the audio for this, the speaker laughs after miNkHe and then >>>>> almost catches her breath before saying akHa, which would indicate to me >>>>> that she felt it was essential for concluding the sentence. It's >>>>> interesting to me in that it seems that the entire quoted clause is acting >>>>> almost like a verb following the canonical pattern (subject) SUBJ (verb) >>>>> AUX, where SUBJ and AUX match shape in the continuative aspect, as in >>>>> s^idoz^iNga akHa ghaage akHa, 'the boy is crying.' >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -jtm >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 1:50 PM, Rory Larson wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Dave, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> In Omaha and Ponca, the corresponding article is amá, where you have >>>>> abá. As with Kaw, it tends to imply ‘moving/absent’. But we also have >>>>> another particle, apparently pronounced the same way, coming at the end of >>>>> the sentence, that implies that the foregoing is hearsay rather than solid >>>>> fact. It can stand by itself, or it can be coupled with the ‘allegedly’ >>>>> particle bi to make the common ending for 3rd person hearsay action, >>>>> biama. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I notice the accent changes to the first syllable in the second case >>>>> of your example. I wonder if that could be underlyingly a-aba in that >>>>> case? The first would be the ablauted version of ‘he said it’, followed by >>>>> either the Old Man’s article abá or a ‘hearsay’ particle as in OP. One >>>>> problem with that would be that the ‘hearsay’ amá in OP shouldn’t cause a >>>>> preceding verb to ablaut. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> My $0.02. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Rory >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On >>>>> Behalf Of *David Kaufman >>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, February 20, 2014 1:30 PM >>>>> *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU >>>>> *Subject:* Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I have a question re: a curious structure in Kaw, and whether anything >>>>> like it occurs in other Dhegihan or even non-Dhegihan Siouan languages. >>>>> The structure involves the articles akhá and abá, used for subjects in Kaw >>>>> and usually translated 'the', the first being roughly for >>>>> 'standing/sitting' and the other for 'moving/absent'. However, in Kaw, >>>>> these subject articles also somehow seem to have become used as quotatives, >>>>> or 's/he said.' Here is an example sentence with gloss: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Icíkitanga abá, “Anyáxtaga-édan,” ába-dan, nanstábe.* >>>>> >>>>> Old.Man said bite.me-then said-then kicked.him >>>>> >>>>> The Old Man said, “Then bite me,” and he kicked him. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> So abá, which is normally used for 'moving' subjects and is usually >>>>> translated 'the', is now being used for 's/he said.' >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Any thoughts on this, esp. from other Dhegihan perspectives, or other >>>>> Siouan languages that might have some similar usage? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> David Kaufman >>>>> >>>>> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >>>>> >>>>> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >> > > > -- > *********************************************************** > Bryan James Gordon, MA > Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology > University of Arizona > *********************************************************** > -- *********************************************************** Bryan James Gordon, MA Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology University of Arizona *********************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Sat Feb 22 19:52:51 2014 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM (Sky Campbell) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2014 13:52:51 -0600 Subject: Aho! In-Reply-To: <003301cf2ffb$91533580$b3f9a080$@com> Message-ID: I found a strike against my "-ke/-ge" idea referring to "in like manner." In Hamilton's An Elementary Book of the Ioway Language, page 34-35, he has the following line: a-ræ-fkæ-mvn-yæ-we-ræ - do ye likewise (arethke manyiwi re) In that situation, he has the "ithke" before the verb and not after (which was my idea). After a quick scan of the rest of the book, I found examples of imperatives both with and without the "ka" in the hymns but I didn't immediately see anything that cleared up my confusion. And in keeping with the idea that perhaps this might be an older thing, I did a quick run through Merrill's First Ioway Reading Book and in his prayer (Lesson 12, page 13), he has the line: Nl-ce pe of-kon-kl-ra (Nąnje pi uk'ųka re) - Give me a good heart. (I wonder with the possible nasal "f" that Merrill put in there if it is supposed to be a contraction of "uhįnk'ų" to become "ųnk'ų" to say "give me".) So here we have another use of "ka" from a source other than Hamilton. I haven't gone through his hymns yet though. But no clues so far as I can tell. However I am noticing "me" being in a few of these but it may just be a coincidence. And on the off chance that this "ka" might be something that means plural (maybe an alternate way to end commands to command more than one person besides using -wi), I remembered a very odd term from Maximilian's word list where he had: guj-n - we alone To date, I have never seen the prefix "gu-" to mean "we" anywhere else. And it may not be connected in any way to the "ka/ga" we are talking about but I thought I'd put it out there. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2014 12:26 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! Going along with the "now" idea, I'm going to keep an eye out for the full form of "gasun" in these instances along with anything that will give some clues for this. I've been working a lot with Hamilton's material lately so I'll be sure to go over it thoroughly. As far as "ich'a re/it'a re", I wonder if these forms have something to do with the d/t changing to ch/j (IE te/che for buffalo and inde/inje for face) with some terms. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2014 8:52 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! Hánwe Pi: Jill says: I can't help but think that it's somehow ga- the locational prefix for something you can see, but not directly next to 1st and 2nd person (gaida 'over there (but not yonder)', gaigu, etc. - which could ultimately be related to gasuN also. It might clarify actual location, or be used metaphorically for 'now/soon' even by itself. Now applying that to the sentences, æ-ka-ræ - say it, speak = á re/ é ga re (Say it now!) jwæ-me-ka-ræ - doctor me = swéhi re/ swémi ga re (Doctor me now!) e-cæ-ka-ræ - speak thou, tell = i^cha re/ i^che ga re (Speak now!) ~~ [Jill, in the imperative, is it not ~ it^a re ?????] wo-ug-ka-ræ - work thou = wa^ún ne/ wa^ún ga re (Work it now!) ru-meg-ka-ræ - buy it = rúmi re/ rúmi ga re (Buy it now!) It does seem to apply in application above. Now, if that being so, why o’ why does it not show up in any other texts, except Hamilton? I suppose it could have been a spoken form of the period (pre- 1850’s) that was used and then dropped by latter generations. It is noted in the dictionary, these applications that may produce a “ga”: ga-... prf. just; exactly. **SEE: gašún; gaída. ga^é v.i. say as follows. Hinkúñi ga^é: “Gá^e koíth^in hinnahá^e,” é ki, My grandmother said as follows: “He is the one we were talking about.” ga^é^a v.t. say as follows to another. They said as follows to him…, Ga^igáñe… ke. Hintágwa ga^ihé^a: “Áannegradànwe hñe ke,” ihé ke, I said as follows to my grandson: “You will give me (your own one) your attention,” I told him. ga^íge; gáigé v.i. say that (in bad sence, slander, reproof). Áre iwáhuŋe škúñi ke Wan^síge ga^igeñe ke, Some people say that he does not know (anything, but in truth, the real facts support the opposite is true). Héda wánsha xóñitan gawٕígena wakánda píškúñi warúdhe hñe ke, And that old man preacher rebuked them, saying the devil was going to get them for their sins. gá iráyin; ga^írayin v.t. think that; make up one’s mind. Gá ihádayin nu^á kó^o ha^ún škúñi ke, although, I have made up my mind, I have not yet done it (the work). Sré hñe israyin je, Do you think that you will go? **SEE: iráyin; wáge. gá iré v.t. think that; think as follows. Tanhédan gratógre hinnáwišge pí nu^áre ga iháre ke, If we were all going together, I think that it would be good. **SEE: iré; gaída. Jimm From: Greer, Jill Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2014 1:03 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! Hi, Sky, Interesting! This is my gut response, without any new examples unfortunately. I can't help but think that it's somehow ga- the locational prefix for something you can see, but not directly next to 1st and 2nd person (gaida 'over there (but not yonder)', gaigu, etc. - which could ultimately be related to gasuN also. It might clarify actual location, or be used metaphorically for 'now/soon' even by itself. Regarding your concern about it occurring after the verb, I can think of the common phrase Are gasuN khi 'It's okay/that's all right' , which looks like it could be in other parts of a sentence, too, besides the beginning? Your last idea seems possible also, about thge 'to be thus' which could be a result ablauting before the command? I don't know if the initial fricative was missed by Hamilton, or was deleted. (Sort of like 'Walk this way' :) …) Is there any precedent in other Siouan languages for an emphatic form related to IOM kHe huN' ? I had the thought IF it were abbreviated to kHe, and occurred next to the -re 'command form', it could ablaut to kha , and make an emphatic command. (I have developed a personal English variant of that myself with my youngest son, Do X RIGHT NOW! (Sometimes followed by 'I'm not joking', just in case he's still not listening…) It's getting late, so forgive me if I'm stretching the limits of Siouan ablaut rules. Thanks for the examples, Sky. I know I've read through Hamilton but had forgotten that peculiarity. Help us out, friends. Iren, is there such a thing in Hochunk, too? Jill On Feb 21, 2014, at 11:24 PM, Sky Campbell wrote: I'll show a few more examples from Hamilton that may help. The example I gave (wa-ka a-ta-ka-ræ) was from Hamilton's An Ioway Grammar, page 29. The following examples are from Hamilton's An Elementary Book of the Ioway Language. Perhaps these examples can help us find a common theme between them. I'll show imperatives with and without the extra "ka" syllable. FYI I'll also be using Hamilton's orthography. æ-ka-ræ - say it, speak (page 21) I've seen that as simply "a re" where the verb "e" for "say" changes to "a" for the imperative. na-yæ-ræ - stand up (no "ka" here) (page 22) ya-wæ-ræ - sing thou (no "ka" here) (page 23) u-yu-ræ - fill it (no "ka" here) (page 24) u-we-ra - do it (no "ka" here and is in plural form with the suffix -wi...might also be a typo since they went with "ra" rather than "ræ" unless he went for a possible female form but I'm doubting that since everything else seems to be exclusively in the male form) (page 24) hu-we-ræ - come here (no "ka" here and another plural form (page 24) ru-fæ-ræ - take it (no "ka" here) (page 24) ma-yæ-ræ - walk thou (no "ka" here (page 25) a-ta-ræ - see thou (no "ka" here and it is the same thing as my original example but without the "ka") (page 25) jwæ-me-ka-ræ - doctor me (page 29) e-cæ-ka-ræ - speak thou, tell (page 30) wo-ug-ka-ræ - work thou (page 30) ru-meg-ka-ræ - buy it (page 30) me-na-we-ræ - sit ye down (no "ka" here and is in plural form) (page 30) ke-kræ-we-ho - be ye gone (no "ka" here and is in plural form...also in the more polite imperative using "ho" instead of "re") (page 30) u-jkun-yæ-ræ - do not do it (no "ka" here) (page 31) wo-ku-we-ræ - give them (no "ka" here and is in plural form) (page 31) Ok, this should do for now. Typing out this list has given me a few tentative ideas that I need to flesh out but I'll be grateful for any input :). Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 9:33 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! That is an interesting find, and all your explanations are plausible, especially the 2nd one. I do not recall coming across this before, and I can not find any thing like it in the IOM Dictionary. The imperative works just as you say, and I know of no deviation. The collected texts from Dorsey, and those from Julia Small, a monolingual speaker, did not have examples as you have found. The mystery needs be reviewed by a higher power, namely the Siouan List, to whom I am going to cc this reply for their input by the professional experts and those who may have some explanation for this occurrence, or able to leave as a Hamilton phenomena. From: Campbell, Sky Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 10:44 AM To: Jimm G. GoodTracks Subject: Aho! Hope all is well up your way J. Quick question about something I’ve noticed in Hamilton and Irvin’s books. After some of the commands/imperatives, there is an extra syllable after the verb. For example, they have: wa-ka a-ta-ka-ræ – see the snake I have no idea what the “ka” is doing after (what would be for us) “ada”. But with Hamilton, he doesn’t differentiate between “k” and “g” so it may actually be a “g” for us. He uses this quite a bit for commands but I’m not understanding why and so far I haven’t found any clues. From what I can tell, it isn’t a form of plural since he uses –wi and he uses the singular 2nd person when the “ka” is used. And he doesn’t always use it for the singular imperative form which is what adds to my confusion. I have 3 possibilities that spring to mind. First, the “ka” might be a contracted form of “gasun” which perhaps might be indicating that whatever the speaker wants done, they want it done now. Not sure about this one since you usually see “gasun” at the beginning of a statement. Second is that the ending imperative “re” may actually be a contraction of an older form “kare/gare” and it has just stopped being used. That one is just a random guess LOL. Finally, I am wondering if the “ka” is actually perhaps “ke/ge” to refer to “in like manner” (ithke) but since it is an imperative, the “e” changes to an “a”. If so, then the above sentence would perhaps say something like “Look at the snake (in like manner).” And if so, I wonder if the context of the conversation would indicate just exactly what the “like manner” means. What do you think? Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org ­­ This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 519 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Mon Feb 24 17:23:33 2014 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Greer, Jill) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 17:23:33 +0000 Subject: Aho! In-Reply-To: <585FE42896DD4ECA978404DD37D2D190@AsusLaptop> Message-ID: HaNwe Pi, Jimm, Good question, Jimm. I used to think of those as just alternative words for speaking, like to say versus to speak, to talk, etc., so you could choose either one according to context, but perhaps that’s not the case. If Dorsey has any cases that support Hamilton’s examples, that would really help! Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2014 8:52 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! Hánwe Pi: Jill says: I can't help but think that it's somehow ga- the locational prefix for something you can see, but not directly next to 1st and 2nd person (gaida 'over there (but not yonder)', gaigu, etc. - which could ultimately be related to gasuN also. It might clarify actual location, or be used metaphorically for 'now/soon' even by itself. Now applying that to the sentences, æ-ka-ræ - say it, speak = á re/ é ga re (Say it now!) jwæ-me-ka-ræ - doctor me = swéhi re/ swémi ga re (Doctor me now!) e-cæ-ka-ræ - speak thou, tell = i^cha re/ i^che ga re (Speak now!) ~~ [Jill, in the imperative, is it not ~ it^a re ?????] wo-ug-ka-ræ - work thou = wa^ún ne/ wa^ún ga re (Work it now!) ru-meg-ka-ræ - buy it = rúmi re/ rúmi ga re (Buy it now!) It does seem to apply in application above. Now, if that being so, why o’ why does it not show up in any other texts, except Hamilton? I suppose it could have been a spoken form of the period (pre- 1850’s) that was used and then dropped by latter generations. It is noted in the dictionary, these applications that may produce a “ga”: ga-... prf. just; exactly. **SEE: gašún; gaída. ga^é v.i. say as follows. Hinkúñi ga^é: “Gá^e koíth^in hinnahá^e,” é ki, My grandmother said as follows: “He is the one we were talking about.” ga^é^a v.t. say as follows to another. They said as follows to him…, Ga^igáñe… ke. Hintágwa ga^ihé^a: “Áannegradànwe hñe ke,” ihé ke, I said as follows to my grandson: “You will give me (your own one) your attention,” I told him. ga^íge; gáigé v.i. say that (in bad sence, slander, reproof). Áre iwáhuŋe škúñi ke Wan^síge ga^igeñe ke, Some people say that he does not know (anything, but in truth, the real facts support the opposite is true). Héda wánsha xóñitan gawٕígena wakánda píškúñi warúdhe hñe ke, And that old man preacher rebuked them, saying the devil was going to get them for their sins. gá iráyin; ga^írayin v.t. think that; make up one’s mind. Gá ihádayin nu^á kó^o ha^ún škúñi ke, although, I have made up my mind, I have not yet done it (the work). Sré hñe israyin je, Do you think that you will go? **SEE: iráyin; wáge. gá iré v.t. think that; think as follows. Tanhédan gratógre hinnáwišge pí nu^áre ga iháre ke, If we were all going together, I think that it would be good. **SEE: iré; gaída. Jimm From: Greer, Jill Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2014 1:03 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! Hi, Sky, Interesting! This is my gut response, without any new examples unfortunately. I can't help but think that it's somehow ga- the locational prefix for something you can see, but not directly next to 1st and 2nd person (gaida 'over there (but not yonder)', gaigu, etc. - which could ultimately be related to gasuN also. It might clarify actual location, or be used metaphorically for 'now/soon' even by itself. Regarding your concern about it occurring after the verb, I can think of the common phrase Are gasuN khi 'It's okay/that's all right' , which looks like it could be in other parts of a sentence, too, besides the beginning? Your last idea seems possible also, about thge 'to be thus' which could be a result ablauting before the command? I don't know if the initial fricative was missed by Hamilton, or was deleted. (Sort of like 'Walk this way' :) …) Is there any precedent in other Siouan languages for an emphatic form related to IOM kHe huN' ? I had the thought IF it were abbreviated to kHe, and occurred next to the -re 'command form', it could ablaut to kha , and make an emphatic command. (I have developed a personal English variant of that myself with my youngest son, Do X RIGHT NOW! (Sometimes followed by 'I'm not joking', just in case he's still not listening…) It's getting late, so forgive me if I'm stretching the limits of Siouan ablaut rules. Thanks for the examples, Sky. I know I've read through Hamilton but had forgotten that peculiarity. Help us out, friends. Iren, is there such a thing in Hochunk, too? Jill On Feb 21, 2014, at 11:24 PM, Sky Campbell > wrote: I'll show a few more examples from Hamilton that may help. The example I gave (wa-ka a-ta-ka-ræ) was from Hamilton's An Ioway Grammar, page 29. The following examples are from Hamilton's An Elementary Book of the Ioway Language. Perhaps these examples can help us find a common theme between them. I'll show imperatives with and without the extra "ka" syllable. FYI I'll also be using Hamilton's orthography. æ-ka-ræ - say it, speak (page 21) I've seen that as simply "a re" where the verb "e" for "say" changes to "a" for the imperative. na-yæ-ræ - stand up (no "ka" here) (page 22) ya-wæ-ræ - sing thou (no "ka" here) (page 23) u-yu-ræ - fill it (no "ka" here) (page 24) u-we-ra - do it (no "ka" here and is in plural form with the suffix -wi...might also be a typo since they went with "ra" rather than "ræ" unless he went for a possible female form but I'm doubting that since everything else seems to be exclusively in the male form) (page 24) hu-we-ræ - come here (no "ka" here and another plural form (page 24) ru-fæ-ræ - take it (no "ka" here) (page 24) ma-yæ-ræ - walk thou (no "ka" here (page 25) a-ta-ræ - see thou (no "ka" here and it is the same thing as my original example but without the "ka") (page 25) jwæ-me-ka-ræ - doctor me (page 29) e-cæ-ka-ræ - speak thou, tell (page 30) wo-ug-ka-ræ - work thou (page 30) ru-meg-ka-ræ - buy it (page 30) me-na-we-ræ - sit ye down (no "ka" here and is in plural form) (page 30) ke-kræ-we-ho - be ye gone (no "ka" here and is in plural form...also in the more polite imperative using "ho" instead of "re") (page 30) u-jkun-yæ-ræ - do not do it (no "ka" here) (page 31) wo-ku-we-ræ - give them (no "ka" here and is in plural form) (page 31) Ok, this should do for now. Typing out this list has given me a few tentative ideas that I need to flesh out but I'll be grateful for any input :). Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 9:33 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! That is an interesting find, and all your explanations are plausible, especially the 2nd one. I do not recall coming across this before, and I can not find any thing like it in the IOM Dictionary. The imperative works just as you say, and I know of no deviation. The collected texts from Dorsey, and those from Julia Small, a monolingual speaker, did not have examples as you have found. The mystery needs be reviewed by a higher power, namely the Siouan List, to whom I am going to cc this reply for their input by the professional experts and those who may have some explanation for this occurrence, or able to leave as a Hamilton phenomena. From: Campbell, Sky Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 10:44 AM To: Jimm G. GoodTracks Subject: Aho! Hope all is well up your way ☺. Quick question about something I’ve noticed in Hamilton and Irvin’s books. After some of the commands/imperatives, there is an extra syllable after the verb. For example, they have: wa-ka a-ta-ka-ræ – see the snake I have no idea what the “ka” is doing after (what would be for us) “ada”. But with Hamilton, he doesn’t differentiate between “k” and “g” so it may actually be a “g” for us. He uses this quite a bit for commands but I’m not understanding why and so far I haven’t found any clues. From what I can tell, it isn’t a form of plural since he uses –wi and he uses the singular 2nd person when the “ka” is used. And he doesn’t always use it for the singular imperative form which is what adds to my confusion. I have 3 possibilities that spring to mind. First, the “ka” might be a contracted form of “gasun” which perhaps might be indicating that whatever the speaker wants done, they want it done now. Not sure about this one since you usually see “gasun” at the beginning of a statement. Second is that the ending imperative “re” may actually be a contraction of an older form “kare/gare” and it has just stopped being used. That one is just a random guess LOL. Finally, I am wondering if the “ka” is actually perhaps “ke/ge” to refer to “in like manner” (ithke) but since it is an imperative, the “e” changes to an “a”. If so, then the above sentence would perhaps say something like “Look at the snake (in like manner).” And if so, I wonder if the context of the conversation would indicate just exactly what the “like manner” means. What do you think? Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org ­­ This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG Mon Feb 24 18:07:11 2014 From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 12:07:11 -0600 Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Aho! In-Reply-To: <000601cf3007$ac3f2f00$04bd8d00$@com> Message-ID: I may have found a clue for “ka.” Dorsey has the term: e-wa-na-ha – the speaker; the one speaking Then he has the term: e wa-ka-na-ha – the one who is meant; the person addressed I’m not sure how (or even if) this is related to the “ka” I am asking about but I’m trying to look at it in different ways to see if it fits somehow. Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2014 1:53 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Aho! Importance: Low I found a strike against my "-ke/-ge" idea referring to "in like manner." In Hamilton's An Elementary Book of the Ioway Language, page 34-35, he has the following line: a-ræ-fkæ-mvn-yæ-we-ræ - do ye likewise (arethke manyiwi re) In that situation, he has the "ithke" before the verb and not after (which was my idea). After a quick scan of the rest of the book, I found examples of imperatives both with and without the "ka" in the hymns but I didn't immediately see anything that cleared up my confusion. And in keeping with the idea that perhaps this might be an older thing, I did a quick run through Merrill's First Ioway Reading Book and in his prayer (Lesson 12, page 13), he has the line: Nl-ce pe of-kon-kl-ra (Nąnje pi uk'ųka re) - Give me a good heart. (I wonder with the possible nasal "f" that Merrill put in there if it is supposed to be a contraction of "uhįnk'ų" to become "ųnk'ų" to say "give me".) So here we have another use of "ka" from a source other than Hamilton. I haven't gone through his hymns yet though. But no clues so far as I can tell. However I am noticing "me" being in a few of these but it may just be a coincidence. And on the off chance that this "ka" might be something that means plural (maybe an alternate way to end commands to command more than one person besides using -wi), I remembered a very odd term from Maximilian's word list where he had: guj-n - we alone To date, I have never seen the prefix "gu-" to mean "we" anywhere else. And it may not be connected in any way to the "ka/ga" we are talking about but I thought I'd put it out there. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2014 12:26 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! Going along with the "now" idea, I'm going to keep an eye out for the full form of "gasun" in these instances along with anything that will give some clues for this. I've been working a lot with Hamilton's material lately so I'll be sure to go over it thoroughly. As far as "ich'a re/it'a re", I wonder if these forms have something to do with the d/t changing to ch/j (IE te/che for buffalo and inde/inje for face) with some terms. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2014 8:52 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! Hánwe Pi: Jill says: I can't help but think that it's somehow ga- the locational prefix for something you can see, but not directly next to 1st and 2nd person (gaida 'over there (but not yonder)', gaigu, etc. - which could ultimately be related to gasuN also. It might clarify actual location, or be used metaphorically for 'now/soon' even by itself. Now applying that to the sentences, æ-ka-ræ - say it, speak = á re/ é ga re (Say it now!) jwæ-me-ka-ræ - doctor me = swéhi re/ swémi ga re (Doctor me now!) e-cæ-ka-ræ - speak thou, tell = i^cha re/ i^che ga re (Speak now!) ~~ [Jill, in the imperative, is it not ~ it^a re ?????] wo-ug-ka-ræ - work thou = wa^ún ne/ wa^ún ga re (Work it now!) ru-meg-ka-ræ - buy it = rúmi re/ rúmi ga re (Buy it now!) It does seem to apply in application above. Now, if that being so, why o’ why does it not show up in any other texts, except Hamilton? I suppose it could have been a spoken form of the period (pre- 1850’s) that was used and then dropped by latter generations. It is noted in the dictionary, these applications that may produce a “ga”: ga-... prf. just; exactly. **SEE: gašún; gaída. ga^é v.i. say as follows. Hinkúñi ga^é: “Gá^e koíth^in hinnahá^e,” é ki, My grandmother said as follows: “He is the one we were talking about.” ga^é^a v.t. say as follows to another. They said as follows to him…, Ga^igáñe… ke. Hintágwa ga^ihé^a: “Áannegradànwe hñe ke,” ihé ke, I said as follows to my grandson: “You will give me (your own one) your attention,” I told him. ga^íge; gáigé v.i. say that (in bad sence, slander, reproof). Áre iwáhuŋe škúñi ke Wan^síge ga^igeñe ke, Some people say that he does not know (anything, but in truth, the real facts support the opposite is true). Héda wánsha xóñitan gawٕígena wakánda píškúñi warúdhe hñe ke, And that old man preacher rebuked them, saying the devil was going to get them for their sins. gá iráyin; ga^írayin v.t. think that; make up one’s mind. Gá ihádayin nu^á kó^o ha^ún škúñi ke, although, I have made up my mind, I have not yet done it (the work). Sré hñe israyin je, Do you think that you will go? **SEE: iráyin; wáge. gá iré v.t. think that; think as follows. Tanhédan gratógre hinnáwišge pí nu^áre ga iháre ke, If we were all going together, I think that it would be good. **SEE: iré; gaída. Jimm From: Greer, Jill Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2014 1:03 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! Hi, Sky, Interesting! This is my gut response, without any new examples unfortunately. I can't help but think that it's somehow ga- the locational prefix for something you can see, but not directly next to 1st and 2nd person (gaida 'over there (but not yonder)', gaigu, etc. - which could ultimately be related to gasuN also. It might clarify actual location, or be used metaphorically for 'now/soon' even by itself. Regarding your concern about it occurring after the verb, I can think of the common phrase Are gasuN khi 'It's okay/that's all right' , which looks like it could be in other parts of a sentence, too, besides the beginning? Your last idea seems possible also, about thge 'to be thus' which could be a result ablauting before the command? I don't know if the initial fricative was missed by Hamilton, or was deleted. (Sort of like 'Walk this way' :) …) Is there any precedent in other Siouan languages for an emphatic form related to IOM kHe huN' ? I had the thought IF it were abbreviated to kHe, and occurred next to the -re 'command form', it could ablaut to kha , and make an emphatic command. (I have developed a personal English variant of that myself with my youngest son, Do X RIGHT NOW! (Sometimes followed by 'I'm not joking', just in case he's still not listening…) It's getting late, so forgive me if I'm stretching the limits of Siouan ablaut rules. Thanks for the examples, Sky. I know I've read through Hamilton but had forgotten that peculiarity. Help us out, friends. Iren, is there such a thing in Hochunk, too? Jill On Feb 21, 2014, at 11:24 PM, Sky Campbell > wrote: I'll show a few more examples from Hamilton that may help. The example I gave (wa-ka a-ta-ka-ræ) was from Hamilton's An Ioway Grammar, page 29. The following examples are from Hamilton's An Elementary Book of the Ioway Language. Perhaps these examples can help us find a common theme between them. I'll show imperatives with and without the extra "ka" syllable. FYI I'll also be using Hamilton's orthography. æ-ka-ræ - say it, speak (page 21) I've seen that as simply "a re" where the verb "e" for "say" changes to "a" for the imperative. na-yæ-ræ - stand up (no "ka" here) (page 22) ya-wæ-ræ - sing thou (no "ka" here) (page 23) u-yu-ræ - fill it (no "ka" here) (page 24) u-we-ra - do it (no "ka" here and is in plural form with the suffix -wi...might also be a typo since they went with "ra" rather than "ræ" unless he went for a possible female form but I'm doubting that since everything else seems to be exclusively in the male form) (page 24) hu-we-ræ - come here (no "ka" here and another plural form (page 24) ru-fæ-ræ - take it (no "ka" here) (page 24) ma-yæ-ræ - walk thou (no "ka" here (page 25) a-ta-ræ - see thou (no "ka" here and it is the same thing as my original example but without the "ka") (page 25) jwæ-me-ka-ræ - doctor me (page 29) e-cæ-ka-ræ - speak thou, tell (page 30) wo-ug-ka-ræ - work thou (page 30) ru-meg-ka-ræ - buy it (page 30) me-na-we-ræ - sit ye down (no "ka" here and is in plural form) (page 30) ke-kræ-we-ho - be ye gone (no "ka" here and is in plural form...also in the more polite imperative using "ho" instead of "re") (page 30) u-jkun-yæ-ræ - do not do it (no "ka" here) (page 31) wo-ku-we-ræ - give them (no "ka" here and is in plural form) (page 31) Ok, this should do for now. Typing out this list has given me a few tentative ideas that I need to flesh out but I'll be grateful for any input :). Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 9:33 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! That is an interesting find, and all your explanations are plausible, especially the 2nd one. I do not recall coming across this before, and I can not find any thing like it in the IOM Dictionary. The imperative works just as you say, and I know of no deviation. The collected texts from Dorsey, and those from Julia Small, a monolingual speaker, did not have examples as you have found. The mystery needs be reviewed by a higher power, namely the Siouan List, to whom I am going to cc this reply for their input by the professional experts and those who may have some explanation for this occurrence, or able to leave as a Hamilton phenomena. From: Campbell, Sky Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 10:44 AM To: Jimm G. GoodTracks Subject: Aho! Hope all is well up your way ☺. Quick question about something I’ve noticed in Hamilton and Irvin’s books. After some of the commands/imperatives, there is an extra syllable after the verb. For example, they have: wa-ka a-ta-ka-ræ – see the snake I have no idea what the “ka” is doing after (what would be for us) “ada”. But with Hamilton, he doesn’t differentiate between “k” and “g” so it may actually be a “g” for us. He uses this quite a bit for commands but I’m not understanding why and so far I haven’t found any clues. From what I can tell, it isn’t a form of plural since he uses –wi and he uses the singular 2nd person when the “ka” is used. And he doesn’t always use it for the singular imperative form which is what adds to my confusion. I have 3 possibilities that spring to mind. First, the “ka” might be a contracted form of “gasun” which perhaps might be indicating that whatever the speaker wants done, they want it done now. Not sure about this one since you usually see “gasun” at the beginning of a statement. Second is that the ending imperative “re” may actually be a contraction of an older form “kare/gare” and it has just stopped being used. That one is just a random guess LOL. Finally, I am wondering if the “ka” is actually perhaps “ke/ge” to refer to “in like manner” (ithke) but since it is an imperative, the “e” changes to an “a”. If so, then the above sentence would perhaps say something like “Look at the snake (in like manner).” And if so, I wonder if the context of the conversation would indicate just exactly what the “like manner” means. What do you think? Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org ­­ This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 289 bytes Desc: image003.png URL: From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Mon Feb 24 18:22:26 2014 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Greer, Jill) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 18:22:26 +0000 Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Aho! In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E436C33F3C3EE7@Server6-EX.omtribe.net> Message-ID: Great example!!! From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 12:07 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Aho! I may have found a clue for “ka.” Dorsey has the term: e-wa-na-ha – the speaker; the one speaking Then he has the term: e wa-ka-na-ha – the one who is meant; the person addressed I’m not sure how (or even if) this is related to the “ka” I am asking about but I’m trying to look at it in different ways to see if it fits somehow. Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2014 1:53 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Aho! Importance: Low I found a strike against my "-ke/-ge" idea referring to "in like manner." In Hamilton's An Elementary Book of the Ioway Language, page 34-35, he has the following line: a-ræ-fkæ-mvn-yæ-we-ræ - do ye likewise (arethke manyiwi re) In that situation, he has the "ithke" before the verb and not after (which was my idea). After a quick scan of the rest of the book, I found examples of imperatives both with and without the "ka" in the hymns but I didn't immediately see anything that cleared up my confusion. And in keeping with the idea that perhaps this might be an older thing, I did a quick run through Merrill's First Ioway Reading Book and in his prayer (Lesson 12, page 13), he has the line: Nl-ce pe of-kon-kl-ra (Nąnje pi uk'ųka re) - Give me a good heart. (I wonder with the possible nasal "f" that Merrill put in there if it is supposed to be a contraction of "uhįnk'ų" to become "ųnk'ų" to say "give me".) So here we have another use of "ka" from a source other than Hamilton. I haven't gone through his hymns yet though. But no clues so far as I can tell. However I am noticing "me" being in a few of these but it may just be a coincidence. And on the off chance that this "ka" might be something that means plural (maybe an alternate way to end commands to command more than one person besides using -wi), I remembered a very odd term from Maximilian's word list where he had: guj-n - we alone To date, I have never seen the prefix "gu-" to mean "we" anywhere else. And it may not be connected in any way to the "ka/ga" we are talking about but I thought I'd put it out there. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2014 12:26 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! Going along with the "now" idea, I'm going to keep an eye out for the full form of "gasun" in these instances along with anything that will give some clues for this. I've been working a lot with Hamilton's material lately so I'll be sure to go over it thoroughly. As far as "ich'a re/it'a re", I wonder if these forms have something to do with the d/t changing to ch/j (IE te/che for buffalo and inde/inje for face) with some terms. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2014 8:52 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! Hánwe Pi: Jill says: I can't help but think that it's somehow ga- the locational prefix for something you can see, but not directly next to 1st and 2nd person (gaida 'over there (but not yonder)', gaigu, etc. - which could ultimately be related to gasuN also. It might clarify actual location, or be used metaphorically for 'now/soon' even by itself. Now applying that to the sentences, æ-ka-ræ - say it, speak = á re/ é ga re (Say it now!) jwæ-me-ka-ræ - doctor me = swéhi re/ swémi ga re (Doctor me now!) e-cæ-ka-ræ - speak thou, tell = i^cha re/ i^che ga re (Speak now!) ~~ [Jill, in the imperative, is it not ~ it^a re ?????] wo-ug-ka-ræ - work thou = wa^ún ne/ wa^ún ga re (Work it now!) ru-meg-ka-ræ - buy it = rúmi re/ rúmi ga re (Buy it now!) It does seem to apply in application above. Now, if that being so, why o’ why does it not show up in any other texts, except Hamilton? I suppose it could have been a spoken form of the period (pre- 1850’s) that was used and then dropped by latter generations. It is noted in the dictionary, these applications that may produce a “ga”: ga-... prf. just; exactly. **SEE: gašún; gaída. ga^é v.i. say as follows. Hinkúñi ga^é: “Gá^e koíth^in hinnahá^e,” é ki, My grandmother said as follows: “He is the one we were talking about.” ga^é^a v.t. say as follows to another. They said as follows to him…, Ga^igáñe… ke. Hintágwa ga^ihé^a: “Áannegradànwe hñe ke,” ihé ke, I said as follows to my grandson: “You will give me (your own one) your attention,” I told him. ga^íge; gáigé v.i. say that (in bad sence, slander, reproof). Áre iwáhuŋe škúñi ke Wan^síge ga^igeñe ke, Some people say that he does not know (anything, but in truth, the real facts support the opposite is true). Héda wánsha xóñitan gawٕígena wakánda píškúñi warúdhe hñe ke, And that old man preacher rebuked them, saying the devil was going to get them for their sins. gá iráyin; ga^írayin v.t. think that; make up one’s mind. Gá ihádayin nu^á kó^o ha^ún škúñi ke, although, I have made up my mind, I have not yet done it (the work). Sré hñe israyin je, Do you think that you will go? **SEE: iráyin; wáge. gá iré v.t. think that; think as follows. Tanhédan gratógre hinnáwišge pí nu^áre ga iháre ke, If we were all going together, I think that it would be good. **SEE: iré; gaída. Jimm From: Greer, Jill Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2014 1:03 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! Hi, Sky, Interesting! This is my gut response, without any new examples unfortunately. I can't help but think that it's somehow ga- the locational prefix for something you can see, but not directly next to 1st and 2nd person (gaida 'over there (but not yonder)', gaigu, etc. - which could ultimately be related to gasuN also. It might clarify actual location, or be used metaphorically for 'now/soon' even by itself. Regarding your concern about it occurring after the verb, I can think of the common phrase Are gasuN khi 'It's okay/that's all right' , which looks like it could be in other parts of a sentence, too, besides the beginning? Your last idea seems possible also, about thge 'to be thus' which could be a result ablauting before the command? I don't know if the initial fricative was missed by Hamilton, or was deleted. (Sort of like 'Walk this way' :) …) Is there any precedent in other Siouan languages for an emphatic form related to IOM kHe huN' ? I had the thought IF it were abbreviated to kHe, and occurred next to the -re 'command form', it could ablaut to kha , and make an emphatic command. (I have developed a personal English variant of that myself with my youngest son, Do X RIGHT NOW! (Sometimes followed by 'I'm not joking', just in case he's still not listening…) It's getting late, so forgive me if I'm stretching the limits of Siouan ablaut rules. Thanks for the examples, Sky. I know I've read through Hamilton but had forgotten that peculiarity. Help us out, friends. Iren, is there such a thing in Hochunk, too? Jill On Feb 21, 2014, at 11:24 PM, Sky Campbell > wrote: I'll show a few more examples from Hamilton that may help. The example I gave (wa-ka a-ta-ka-ræ) was from Hamilton's An Ioway Grammar, page 29. The following examples are from Hamilton's An Elementary Book of the Ioway Language. Perhaps these examples can help us find a common theme between them. I'll show imperatives with and without the extra "ka" syllable. FYI I'll also be using Hamilton's orthography. æ-ka-ræ - say it, speak (page 21) I've seen that as simply "a re" where the verb "e" for "say" changes to "a" for the imperative. na-yæ-ræ - stand up (no "ka" here) (page 22) ya-wæ-ræ - sing thou (no "ka" here) (page 23) u-yu-ræ - fill it (no "ka" here) (page 24) u-we-ra - do it (no "ka" here and is in plural form with the suffix -wi...might also be a typo since they went with "ra" rather than "ræ" unless he went for a possible female form but I'm doubting that since everything else seems to be exclusively in the male form) (page 24) hu-we-ræ - come here (no "ka" here and another plural form (page 24) ru-fæ-ræ - take it (no "ka" here) (page 24) ma-yæ-ræ - walk thou (no "ka" here (page 25) a-ta-ræ - see thou (no "ka" here and it is the same thing as my original example but without the "ka") (page 25) jwæ-me-ka-ræ - doctor me (page 29) e-cæ-ka-ræ - speak thou, tell (page 30) wo-ug-ka-ræ - work thou (page 30) ru-meg-ka-ræ - buy it (page 30) me-na-we-ræ - sit ye down (no "ka" here and is in plural form) (page 30) ke-kræ-we-ho - be ye gone (no "ka" here and is in plural form...also in the more polite imperative using "ho" instead of "re") (page 30) u-jkun-yæ-ræ - do not do it (no "ka" here) (page 31) wo-ku-we-ræ - give them (no "ka" here and is in plural form) (page 31) Ok, this should do for now. Typing out this list has given me a few tentative ideas that I need to flesh out but I'll be grateful for any input :). Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 9:33 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! That is an interesting find, and all your explanations are plausible, especially the 2nd one. I do not recall coming across this before, and I can not find any thing like it in the IOM Dictionary. The imperative works just as you say, and I know of no deviation. The collected texts from Dorsey, and those from Julia Small, a monolingual speaker, did not have examples as you have found. The mystery needs be reviewed by a higher power, namely the Siouan List, to whom I am going to cc this reply for their input by the professional experts and those who may have some explanation for this occurrence, or able to leave as a Hamilton phenomena. From: Campbell, Sky Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 10:44 AM To: Jimm G. GoodTracks Subject: Aho! Hope all is well up your way ☺. Quick question about something I’ve noticed in Hamilton and Irvin’s books. After some of the commands/imperatives, there is an extra syllable after the verb. For example, they have: wa-ka a-ta-ka-ræ – see the snake I have no idea what the “ka” is doing after (what would be for us) “ada”. But with Hamilton, he doesn’t differentiate between “k” and “g” so it may actually be a “g” for us. He uses this quite a bit for commands but I’m not understanding why and so far I haven’t found any clues. From what I can tell, it isn’t a form of plural since he uses –wi and he uses the singular 2nd person when the “ka” is used. And he doesn’t always use it for the singular imperative form which is what adds to my confusion. I have 3 possibilities that spring to mind. First, the “ka” might be a contracted form of “gasun” which perhaps might be indicating that whatever the speaker wants done, they want it done now. Not sure about this one since you usually see “gasun” at the beginning of a statement. Second is that the ending imperative “re” may actually be a contraction of an older form “kare/gare” and it has just stopped being used. That one is just a random guess LOL. Finally, I am wondering if the “ka” is actually perhaps “ke/ge” to refer to “in like manner” (ithke) but since it is an imperative, the “e” changes to an “a”. If so, then the above sentence would perhaps say something like “Look at the snake (in like manner).” And if so, I wonder if the context of the conversation would indicate just exactly what the “like manner” means. What do you think? Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org ­­ This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). ­­ This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 289 bytes Desc: image003.png URL: From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Mon Feb 24 20:01:02 2014 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 14:01:02 -0600 Subject: Sad news Message-ID: Dear all, It is with much sadness that I let you know that Dr. Robert Rankin has passed away. I don't have any further details at this time, but I can pass on more info once I know more. The Kaw Nation was just contacted within the last couple of hours about his passing. I am extremely grateful that I got to visit Bob a couple of weeks ago. Sincerely, Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG Mon Feb 24 20:04:27 2014 From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 14:04:27 -0600 Subject: Sad news In-Reply-To: Message-ID: That is very sad news. I got to meet him while he was here in northern Oklahoma a year or so ago and took him out for Chinese food and had a great time. He called me "a scholar and a gentleman" which is something no one has ever said to me before. Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of David Kaufman Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:01 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Sad news Dear all, It is with much sadness that I let you know that Dr. Robert Rankin has passed away. I don't have any further details at this time, but I can pass on more info once I know more. The Kaw Nation was just contacted within the last couple of hours about his passing. I am extremely grateful that I got to visit Bob a couple of weeks ago. Sincerely, Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpboyle at LANGUAGECONSERVANCY.ORG Mon Feb 24 20:08:18 2014 From: jpboyle at LANGUAGECONSERVANCY.ORG (John P. Boyle) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 14:08:18 -0600 Subject: Sad news In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks Dave. What a loss. Bob was such a tremendous figure in the field. He was always generous with his time and comments especially to us younger scholars. He is the reason for who I am today. I'm heartbroken. John Boyle From: David Kaufman Reply-To: Siouan Linguistics Date: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:01 PM To: Subject: Sad news Dear all, It is with much sadness that I let you know that Dr. Robert Rankin has passed away. I don't have any further details at this time, but I can pass on more info once I know more. The Kaw Nation was just contacted within the last couple of hours about his passing. I am extremely grateful that I got to visit Bob a couple of weeks ago. Sincerely, Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From CaRudin1 at WSC.EDU Mon Feb 24 20:13:41 2014 From: CaRudin1 at WSC.EDU (Catherine Rudin) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 14:13:41 -0600 Subject: Sad news In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Terribly sorry to hear this. Bob was a role model and mentor; he knew more about Dhegiha languages than anyone else on earth, and was always generously willing to help out those of us with less encyclopedic knowledge. I've asked him many a dumb question and gotten undeservedly helpful replies. And just an all around great guy too. Siouan conferences won't be the same without him. My condolences to his family, students, and the many friends who will miss him. Catherine >>> David Kaufman 2/24/2014 2:01 PM >>> Dear all, It is with much sadness that I let you know that Dr. Robert Rankin has passed away. I don't have any further details at this time, but I can pass on more info once I know more. The Kaw Nation was just contacted within the last couple of hours about his passing. I am extremely grateful that I got to visit Bob a couple of weeks ago. Sincerely, Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmrichar at LIVE.UNC.EDU Mon Feb 24 20:13:40 2014 From: mmrichar at LIVE.UNC.EDU (mmrichar) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 20:13:40 +0000 Subject: Sad news In-Reply-To: Message-ID: To All: I only met Bob one time at the Siouan Conference two years ago, but he had such an influence on me and obviously the field. I'm floored right now. Marty Richardson ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics on behalf of John P. Boyle Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 3:08 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Sad news Thanks Dave. What a loss. Bob was such a tremendous figure in the field. He was always generous with his time and comments especially to us younger scholars. He is the reason for who I am today. I'm heartbroken. John Boyle From: David Kaufman > Reply-To: Siouan Linguistics > Date: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:01 PM To: > Subject: Sad news Dear all, It is with much sadness that I let you know that Dr. Robert Rankin has passed away. I don't have any further details at this time, but I can pass on more info once I know more. The Kaw Nation was just contacted within the last couple of hours about his passing. I am extremely grateful that I got to visit Bob a couple of weeks ago. Sincerely, Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU Mon Feb 24 20:14:25 2014 From: jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU (Mcbride, Justin) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 14:14:25 -0600 Subject: Sad news In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I am crushed. I am so sorry to hear this. He was an excellent mentor, a joy to work with, and a dear friend. -jtm On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 2:08 PM, John P. Boyle < jpboyle at languageconservancy.org> wrote: > Thanks Dave. > > What a loss. Bob was such a tremendous figure in the field. He was > always generous with his time and comments especially to us younger > scholars. He is the reason for who I am today. I'm heartbroken. > > John Boyle > > From: David Kaufman > Reply-To: Siouan Linguistics > Date: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:01 PM > > To: > Subject: Sad news > > Dear all, > > It is with much sadness that I let you know that Dr. Robert Rankin has > passed away. I don't have any further details at this time, but I can pass > on more info once I know more. The Kaw Nation was just contacted within > the last couple of hours about his passing. > > I am extremely grateful that I got to visit Bob a couple of weeks ago. > > Sincerely, > > Dave > > David Kaufman > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From STrechter at CSUCHICO.EDU Mon Feb 24 20:19:13 2014 From: STrechter at CSUCHICO.EDU (Trechter, Sara) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 12:19:13 -0800 Subject: Sad news In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is truly sad. I will miss his thoughtfulness and his great BS detection. Sent from my iPhone On Feb 24, 2014, at 12:16 PM, "Mcbride, Justin" > wrote: I am crushed. I am so sorry to hear this. He was an excellent mentor, a joy to work with, and a dear friend. -jtm On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 2:08 PM, John P. Boyle > wrote: Thanks Dave. What a loss. Bob was such a tremendous figure in the field. He was always generous with his time and comments especially to us younger scholars. He is the reason for who I am today. I'm heartbroken. John Boyle From: David Kaufman > Reply-To: Siouan Linguistics > Date: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:01 PM To: > Subject: Sad news Dear all, It is with much sadness that I let you know that Dr. Robert Rankin has passed away. I don't have any further details at this time, but I can pass on more info once I know more. The Kaw Nation was just contacted within the last couple of hours about his passing. I am extremely grateful that I got to visit Bob a couple of weeks ago. Sincerely, Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ardise at HAWAII.EDU Mon Feb 24 20:30:28 2014 From: ardise at HAWAII.EDU (Ardis Eschenberg) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 15:30:28 -0500 Subject: Sad news In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This an unfathomable loss. Bob defined kindness, intelligence, and scholarliness - all with a dose of good humor and practical good sense. Respectfully, Ardis Ardis Eschenberg, Ph.D. Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs Windward Community College (808) 235-7443 ardise at hawaii.edu On Feb 24, 2014, at 3:01 PM, David Kaufman wrote: > Dear all, > > It is with much sadness that I let you know that Dr. Robert Rankin has passed away. I don't have any further details at this time, but I can pass on more info once I know more. The Kaw Nation was just contacted within the last couple of hours about his passing. > > I am extremely grateful that I got to visit Bob a couple of weeks ago. > > Sincerely, > > Dave > > David Kaufman > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Mon Feb 24 20:33:42 2014 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Greer, Jill) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 20:33:42 +0000 Subject: Sad news In-Reply-To: <42470DE5-FF19-4CD2-BF4D-CC32AFF0972F@exchange.csuchico.edu> Message-ID: A light has gone out for us all. I would never have studied a Siouan language if Bob had not used his wonderful powers of persuasion to convince Louanna Furbee to set aside Mayan languages for a little while, from a sense of duty of being at Mizzou. He drove to Columbia to give us a huge packet of materials, and did a long workshop of introduction to Siouan linguistics. And that was just the beginning. Not to mention opening his home for so many gatherings. So generous, so scholarly, so dedicated. Truly I’m heartbroken, too. From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Trechter, Sara Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:19 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Sad news This is truly sad. I will miss his thoughtfulness and his great BS detection. Sent from my iPhone On Feb 24, 2014, at 12:16 PM, "Mcbride, Justin" > wrote: I am crushed. I am so sorry to hear this. He was an excellent mentor, a joy to work with, and a dear friend. -jtm On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 2:08 PM, John P. Boyle > wrote: Thanks Dave. What a loss. Bob was such a tremendous figure in the field. He was always generous with his time and comments especially to us younger scholars. He is the reason for who I am today. I'm heartbroken. John Boyle From: David Kaufman > Reply-To: Siouan Linguistics > Date: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:01 PM To: > Subject: Sad news Dear all, It is with much sadness that I let you know that Dr. Robert Rankin has passed away. I don't have any further details at this time, but I can pass on more info once I know more. The Kaw Nation was just contacted within the last couple of hours about his passing. I am extremely grateful that I got to visit Bob a couple of weeks ago. Sincerely, Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mithun at LINGUISTICS.UCSB.EDU Mon Feb 24 20:40:45 2014 From: mithun at LINGUISTICS.UCSB.EDU (Marianne Mithun) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 12:40:45 -0800 Subject: Sad news In-Reply-To: <42470DE5-FF19-4CD2-BF4D-CC32AFF0972F@exchange.csuchico.edu> Message-ID: Oh no. This is a terrible, terrible loss. Bob knew so very much, and shared so much with all of us. It is just very difficult to believe. Thank you for letting us know. Marianne --On Monday, February 24, 2014 12:19 PM -0800 "Trechter, Sara" wrote: > > This is truly sad. I will miss his thoughtfulness and his great BS > detection. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Feb 24, 2014, at 12:16 PM, "Mcbride, Justin" > wrote: > > > > > I am crushed. I am so sorry to hear this. He was an excellent mentor, a > joy to work with, and a dear friend. -jtm > > > > On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 2:08 PM, John P. Boyle > wrote: > > > > Thanks Dave. > > > What a loss. Bob was such a tremendous figure in the field. He was > always generous with his time and comments especially to us younger > scholars. He is the reason for who I am today. I'm heartbroken. > > > John Boyle > > > From: David Kaufman > Reply-To: Siouan Linguistics > Date: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:01 PM > > To: > Subject: Sad news > > > > > > > > > > Dear all, > > It is with much sadness that I let you know that Dr. Robert Rankin has > passed away. I don't have any further details at this time, but I can > pass on more info once I know more. The Kaw Nation was just contacted > within the last couple of hours about his passing. > > I am extremely grateful that I got to visit Bob a couple of weeks ago. > > Sincerely, > > Dave > > > > > > > > > > David Kaufman > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > > From lcumberl at INDIANA.EDU Mon Feb 24 20:45:06 2014 From: lcumberl at INDIANA.EDU (Cumberland, Linda A) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 15:45:06 -0500 Subject: Sad news In-Reply-To: <1f5d9b5940ba41ea80c12ea3a0fddfdc@BLUPR04MB819.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: I can only second the comments of all of you so far. It was my very great privilege to work so closely with Bob on Kaw language for so many years. Despite my neophyte status in comparison to his monumental career, he always treated me as a peer. I will miss our many exchanges, as I know we will all miss his generous and detailed contributions to the List. Linda Cumberland Quoting "Greer, Jill" : > A light has gone out for us all. I would never have studied a Siouan > language if Bob had not used his wonderful powers of persuasion to > convince Louanna Furbee to set aside Mayan languages for a little > while, from a sense of duty of being at Mizzou. He drove to > Columbia to give us a huge packet of materials, and did a long > workshop of introduction to Siouan linguistics. And that was just > the beginning. Not to mention opening his home for so many > gatherings. > So generous, so scholarly, so dedicated. > > Truly I?m heartbroken, too. > > From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf > Of Trechter, Sara > Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:19 PM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Re: Sad news > > This is truly sad. I will miss his thoughtfulness and his great BS detection. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Feb 24, 2014, at 12:16 PM, "Mcbride, Justin" > > > wrote: > I am crushed. I am so sorry to hear this. He was an excellent mentor, > a joy to work with, and a dear friend. -jtm > > On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 2:08 PM, John P. Boyle > > > wrote: > Thanks Dave. > > What a loss. Bob was such a tremendous figure in the field. He was > always generous with his time and comments especially to us younger > scholars. He is the reason for who I am today. I'm heartbroken. > > John Boyle > > From: David Kaufman > > Reply-To: Siouan Linguistics > > > Date: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:01 PM > > To: > > Subject: Sad news > > Dear all, > It is with much sadness that I let you know that Dr. Robert Rankin > has passed away. I don't have any further details at this time, but > I can pass on more info once I know more. The Kaw Nation was just > contacted within the last couple of hours about his passing. > I am extremely grateful that I got to visit Bob a couple of weeks ago. > Sincerely, > Dave > > David Kaufman > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > > > This email may contain identifiable personal information that is > subject to protection under state and federal law. This information > is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not > the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, > distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited > and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic > transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic > mail (reply). > From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Mon Feb 24 20:46:31 2014 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 20:46:31 +0000 Subject: Sad news In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm stunned and heartbroken to hear this. Bob spent so much time discussing points of grammar with me, both on the list and privately. Most of what I know of Siouan linguistics, I owe to him. He was a rock, and an inspiration. His knowledge was incredible, and he shared it generously. I can't even say how much I will miss him. Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of David Kaufman Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:01 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Sad news Dear all, It is with much sadness that I let you know that Dr. Robert Rankin has passed away. I don't have any further details at this time, but I can pass on more info once I know more. The Kaw Nation was just contacted within the last couple of hours about his passing. I am extremely grateful that I got to visit Bob a couple of weeks ago. Sincerely, Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From majohnson25 at WISC.EDU Mon Feb 24 21:08:04 2014 From: majohnson25 at WISC.EDU (Meredith Johnson) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 15:08:04 -0600 Subject: Sad news In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is heartbreaking news. If anyone is interested in organizing something to honor Dr. Rankin at the upcoming SCLC in May, please contact me, and we can build that into the conference schedule. Best, Meredith On Feb 24, 2014, at 2:46 PM, Rory Larson wrote: > I’m stunned and heartbroken to hear this. Bob spent so much time discussing points of grammar with me, both on the list and privately. Most of what I know of Siouan linguistics, I owe to him. He was a rock, and an inspiration. His knowledge was incredible, and he shared it generously. I can’t even say how much I will miss him. > > Rory > > > From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of David Kaufman > Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:01 PM > To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU > Subject: Sad news > > Dear all, > > It is with much sadness that I let you know that Dr. Robert Rankin has passed away. I don't have any further details at this time, but I can pass on more info once I know more. The Kaw Nation was just contacted within the last couple of hours about his passing. > > I am extremely grateful that I got to visit Bob a couple of weeks ago. > > Sincerely, > > Dave > > David Kaufman > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK Mon Feb 24 21:22:07 2014 From: Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK (Anthony Grant) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 21:22:07 +0000 Subject: Sad news Message-ID: This is dreadful news. I met Bob once (in 1995) and was delighted to be able to thank him for his generosity to me with his Dhegiha materials. He was just a splendid person and his linguistic achievements were known to so few. I recommended his chapter on the Comparative Method to my students just a few weeks back. My deep condolences to his family. Anthony ________________________________ Edge Hill University Times Higher University of the Year - shortlisted 2007/8, 2010/11, 2011/12 www.edgehill.ac.uk ________________________________ This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your system. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.rood at COLORADO.EDU Mon Feb 24 21:48:19 2014 From: david.rood at COLORADO.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 14:48:19 -0700 Subject: Sad news In-Reply-To: <20140224154506.asfoz4moe8k4k0gs@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: I don't know where to begin. It was Bob's knowledge and leadership that made the Comparative Siouan Dictionary possible. The emptiness he leaves behind is likely never to be filled. David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Mon, 24 Feb 2014, Cumberland, Linda A wrote: > I can only second the comments of all of you so far. It was my very great > privilege to work so closely with Bob on Kaw language for so many years. > Despite my neophyte status in comparison to his monumental career, he always > treated me as a peer. I will miss our many exchanges, as I know we will all > miss his generous and detailed contributions to the List. > > Linda Cumberland > > > Quoting "Greer, Jill" : > >> A light has gone out for us all. I would never have studied a Siouan >> language if Bob had not used his wonderful powers of persuasion to >> convince Louanna Furbee to set aside Mayan languages for a little >> while, from a sense of duty of being at Mizzou. He drove to >> Columbia to give us a huge packet of materials, and did a long >> workshop of introduction to Siouan linguistics. And that was just >> the beginning. Not to mention opening his home for so many >> gatherings. >> So generous, so scholarly, so dedicated. >> >> Truly I?m heartbroken, too. >> >> From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf >> Of Trechter, Sara >> Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:19 PM >> To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >> Subject: Re: Sad news >> >> This is truly sad. I will miss his thoughtfulness and his great BS >> detection. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Feb 24, 2014, at 12:16 PM, "Mcbride, Justin" >> > >> wrote: >> I am crushed. I am so sorry to hear this. He was an excellent mentor, >> a joy to work with, and a dear friend. -jtm >> >> On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 2:08 PM, John P. Boyle >> > >> wrote: >> Thanks Dave. >> >> What a loss. Bob was such a tremendous figure in the field. He was >> always generous with his time and comments especially to us younger >> scholars. He is the reason for who I am today. I'm heartbroken. >> >> John Boyle >> >> From: David Kaufman > >> Reply-To: Siouan Linguistics >> > >> Date: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:01 PM >> >> To: > >> Subject: Sad news >> >> Dear all, >> It is with much sadness that I let you know that Dr. Robert Rankin >> has passed away. I don't have any further details at this time, but >> I can pass on more info once I know more. The Kaw Nation was just >> contacted within the last couple of hours about his passing. >> I am extremely grateful that I got to visit Bob a couple of weeks ago. >> Sincerely, >> Dave >> >> David Kaufman >> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >> >> >> >> This email may contain identifiable personal information that is >> subject to protection under state and federal law. This information >> is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not >> the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, >> distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited >> and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic >> transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic >> mail (reply). >> > From stanleyl at LUTHER.EDU Mon Feb 24 22:53:41 2014 From: stanleyl at LUTHER.EDU (Lori Stanley) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 16:53:41 -0600 Subject: Sad news In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is devastating news. Bob was a superb scholar, but beyond that he was a kind, compassionate, generous human being. What a huge loss for his family, friends, and the community of scholars. On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 3:48 PM, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > I don't know where to begin. It was Bob's knowledge and leadership that > made the Comparative Siouan Dictionary possible. The emptiness he leaves > behind is likely never to be filled. > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > > On Mon, 24 Feb 2014, Cumberland, Linda A wrote: > > I can only second the comments of all of you so far. It was my very great >> privilege to work so closely with Bob on Kaw language for so many years. >> Despite my neophyte status in comparison to his monumental career, he >> always treated me as a peer. I will miss our many exchanges, as I know we >> will all miss his generous and detailed contributions to the List. >> >> Linda Cumberland >> >> >> Quoting "Greer, Jill" : >> >> A light has gone out for us all. I would never have studied a Siouan >>> language if Bob had not used his wonderful powers of persuasion to >>> convince Louanna Furbee to set aside Mayan languages for a little >>> while, from a sense of duty of being at Mizzou. He drove to >>> Columbia to give us a huge packet of materials, and did a long >>> workshop of introduction to Siouan linguistics. And that was just >>> the beginning. Not to mention opening his home for so many >>> gatherings. >>> So generous, so scholarly, so dedicated. >>> >>> Truly I?m heartbroken, too. >>> >>> From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf >>> Of Trechter, Sara >>> Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:19 PM >>> To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >>> Subject: Re: Sad news >>> >>> This is truly sad. I will miss his thoughtfulness and his great BS >>> detection. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Feb 24, 2014, at 12:16 PM, "Mcbride, Justin" >>> > >>> wrote: >>> I am crushed. I am so sorry to hear this. He was an excellent mentor, >>> a joy to work with, and a dear friend. -jtm >>> >>> On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 2:08 PM, John P. Boyle >>> >> >> >>> wrote: >>> Thanks Dave. >>> >>> What a loss. Bob was such a tremendous figure in the field. He was >>> always generous with his time and comments especially to us younger >>> scholars. He is the reason for who I am today. I'm heartbroken. >>> >>> John Boyle >>> >>> From: David Kaufman >> >> >>> Reply-To: Siouan Linguistics >>> > >>> Date: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:01 PM >>> >>> To: > >>> Subject: Sad news >>> >>> Dear all, >>> It is with much sadness that I let you know that Dr. Robert Rankin >>> has passed away. I don't have any further details at this time, but >>> I can pass on more info once I know more. The Kaw Nation was just >>> contacted within the last couple of hours about his passing. >>> I am extremely grateful that I got to visit Bob a couple of weeks ago. >>> Sincerely, >>> Dave >>> >>> David Kaufman >>> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >>> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >>> >>> >>> >>> This email may contain identifiable personal information that is >>> subject to protection under state and federal law. This information >>> is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not >>> the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, >>> distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited >>> and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic >>> transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic >>> mail (reply). >>> >>> >> -- Lori A. Stanley Professor of Anthropology Luther College 700 College Drive Decorah, Iowa 52101 563-387-1283 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From saponi360 at YAHOO.COM Mon Feb 24 23:27:47 2014 From: saponi360 at YAHOO.COM (Scott Collins) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 15:27:47 -0800 Subject: Sad news In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is absolutely awful.    Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." ________________________________ From: Lori Stanley To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 4:53 PM Subject: Re: Sad news This is devastating news.  Bob was a superb scholar, but beyond that he was a kind, compassionate, generous human being.  What a huge loss for his family, friends, and the community of scholars. On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 3:48 PM, ROOD DAVID S wrote: I don't know where to begin.  It was Bob's knowledge and leadership that made the Comparative Siouan Dictionary possible.  The emptiness he leaves behind is likely never to be filled. > >David S. Rood >Dept. of Linguistics >Univ. of Colorado >295 UCB >Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >USA >rood at colorado.edu > > >On Mon, 24 Feb 2014, Cumberland, Linda A wrote: > > >I can only second the comments of all of you so far. It was my very great privilege to work so closely with Bob on Kaw language for so many years. Despite my neophyte status in comparison to his monumental career, he always treated me as a peer. I will miss our many exchanges, as I know we will all miss his generous and detailed contributions to the List. >> >>Linda Cumberland >> >> >>Quoting "Greer, Jill" : >> >> >>A light has gone out for us all.  I would never have studied a Siouan >>>language if Bob had not used his wonderful powers of persuasion to >>>convince Louanna Furbee to set aside Mayan languages for a little >>>while, from a sense of duty of being at Mizzou.   He drove to >>>Columbia to give us a huge packet of materials, and did a long >>>workshop of introduction to Siouan linguistics.  And that was just >>>the beginning.  Not to mention opening his home for so many >>>gatherings. >>>So generous, so scholarly, so dedicated. >>> >>>Truly I?m heartbroken, too. >>> >>>From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf >>>Of Trechter, Sara >>>Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:19 PM >>>To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >>>Subject: Re: Sad news >>> >>>This is truly sad. I will miss his thoughtfulness and his great BS detection. >>> >>>Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>On Feb 24, 2014, at 12:16 PM, "Mcbride, Justin" >>>> >>>wrote: >>>I am crushed. I am so sorry to hear this. He was an excellent mentor, >>>a joy to work with, and a dear friend. -jtm >>> >>>On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 2:08 PM, John P. Boyle >>>> >>>wrote: >>>Thanks Dave. >>> >>>What a loss.  Bob was such a tremendous figure in the field.  He was >>>always generous with his time and comments especially to us younger >>>scholars.  He is the reason for who I am today.  I'm heartbroken. >>> >>>John Boyle >>> >>>From: David Kaufman > >>>Reply-To: Siouan Linguistics >>>> >>>Date: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:01 PM >>> >>>To: > >>>Subject: Sad news >>> >>>Dear all, >>>It is with much sadness that I let you know that Dr. Robert Rankin >>>has passed away.  I don't have any further details at this time, but >>>I can pass on more info once I know more.  The Kaw Nation was just >>>contacted within the last couple of hours about his passing. >>>I am extremely grateful that I got to visit Bob a couple of weeks ago. >>>Sincerely, >>>Dave >>> >>>David Kaufman >>>Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >>>Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >>> >>> >>> >>>This email may contain identifiable personal information that is >>>subject to protection under state and federal law. This information >>>is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not >>>the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, >>>distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited >>>and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic >>>transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic >>>mail (reply). >>> >>> >> -- Lori A. Stanley Professor of Anthropology Luther College 700 College Drive Decorah, Iowa 52101 563-387-1283 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU Tue Feb 25 00:50:12 2014 From: WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU (De Reuse, Willem) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2014 00:50:12 +0000 Subject: Sad news In-Reply-To: <1393284467.57481.YahooMailNeo@web181301.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Very sad. He was one of my Master's thesis advisors, and my first teacher of Siouan. My thoughts and prayers will go to him and his family. Willem de Reuse ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics on behalf of Scott Collins Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 5:27 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Sad news This is absolutely awful. Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." ________________________________ From: Lori Stanley To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 4:53 PM Subject: Re: Sad news This is devastating news. Bob was a superb scholar, but beyond that he was a kind, compassionate, generous human being. What a huge loss for his family, friends, and the community of scholars. On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 3:48 PM, ROOD DAVID S > wrote: I don't know where to begin. It was Bob's knowledge and leadership that made the Comparative Siouan Dictionary possible. The emptiness he leaves behind is likely never to be filled. David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Mon, 24 Feb 2014, Cumberland, Linda A wrote: I can only second the comments of all of you so far. It was my very great privilege to work so closely with Bob on Kaw language for so many years. Despite my neophyte status in comparison to his monumental career, he always treated me as a peer. I will miss our many exchanges, as I know we will all miss his generous and detailed contributions to the List. Linda Cumberland Quoting "Greer, Jill" >: A light has gone out for us all. I would never have studied a Siouan language if Bob had not used his wonderful powers of persuasion to convince Louanna Furbee to set aside Mayan languages for a little while, from a sense of duty of being at Mizzou. He drove to Columbia to give us a huge packet of materials, and did a long workshop of introduction to Siouan linguistics. And that was just the beginning. Not to mention opening his home for so many gatherings. So generous, so scholarly, so dedicated. Truly I?m heartbroken, too. From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Trechter, Sara Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:19 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Sad news This is truly sad. I will miss his thoughtfulness and his great BS detection. Sent from my iPhone On Feb 24, 2014, at 12:16 PM, "Mcbride, Justin" >> wrote: I am crushed. I am so sorry to hear this. He was an excellent mentor, a joy to work with, and a dear friend. -jtm On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 2:08 PM, John P. Boyle >> wrote: Thanks Dave. What a loss. Bob was such a tremendous figure in the field. He was always generous with his time and comments especially to us younger scholars. He is the reason for who I am today. I'm heartbroken. John Boyle From: David Kaufman >> Reply-To: Siouan Linguistics >> Date: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:01 PM To: >> Subject: Sad news Dear all, It is with much sadness that I let you know that Dr. Robert Rankin has passed away. I don't have any further details at this time, but I can pass on more info once I know more. The Kaw Nation was just contacted within the last couple of hours about his passing. I am extremely grateful that I got to visit Bob a couple of weeks ago. Sincerely, Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Lori A. Stanley Professor of Anthropology Luther College 700 College Drive Decorah, Iowa 52101 563-387-1283 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kathleendshea at GMAIL.COM Tue Feb 25 08:36:09 2014 From: kathleendshea at GMAIL.COM (Kathleen D. Shea) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2014 00:36:09 -0800 Subject: Sad news In-Reply-To: <90299b654c6f4301a469a33a87b7a7a6@CO1PR01MB127.prod.exchangelabs.com> Message-ID: I'm without words, sad, and somewhat in shock. I will miss Bob greatly, as a friend, mentor, teacher, and scholar of the highest standards. It's hard to imagine the world without him. I had my first course in phonology with him back in the '70's, and he taught me almost everything I know about Siouan languages and comparative-historical linguistics. I'm glad I got to visit with Bob and his wife Carolyn in Lawrence shortly before Christmas, and I'm thinking of Carolyn and Bob's brother, who Dave says is also there, wishing that I were there, too, and that there was something I could do to help. Thanks for letting us know, Dave.... Kathy Shea Sent from my iPad > On Feb 24, 2014, at 4:50 PM, "De Reuse, Willem" wrote: > > Very sad. He was one of my Master's thesis advisors, and my first teacher of Siouan. My thoughts and prayers will go to him and his family. > > > Willem de Reuse > From: Siouan Linguistics on behalf of Scott Collins > Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 5:27 PM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Re: Sad news > > This is absolutely awful. > > Scott P. Collins > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR > > > Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle > > > “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” > > > "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." > > From: Lori Stanley > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 4:53 PM > Subject: Re: Sad news > > This is devastating news. Bob was a superb scholar, but beyond that he was a kind, compassionate, generous human being. What a huge loss for his family, friends, and the community of scholars. > > > > On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 3:48 PM, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > I don't know where to begin. It was Bob's knowledge and leadership that made the Comparative Siouan Dictionary possible. The emptiness he leaves behind is likely never to be filled. > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > > On Mon, 24 Feb 2014, Cumberland, Linda A wrote: > > I can only second the comments of all of you so far. It was my very great privilege to work so closely with Bob on Kaw language for so many years. Despite my neophyte status in comparison to his monumental career, he always treated me as a peer. I will miss our many exchanges, as I know we will all miss his generous and detailed contributions to the List. > > Linda Cumberland > > > Quoting "Greer, Jill" : > > A light has gone out for us all. I would never have studied a Siouan > language if Bob had not used his wonderful powers of persuasion to > convince Louanna Furbee to set aside Mayan languages for a little > while, from a sense of duty of being at Mizzou. He drove to > Columbia to give us a huge packet of materials, and did a long > workshop of introduction to Siouan linguistics. And that was just > the beginning. Not to mention opening his home for so many > gatherings. > So generous, so scholarly, so dedicated. > > Truly I?m heartbroken, too. > > From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf > Of Trechter, Sara > Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:19 PM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Re: Sad news > > This is truly sad. I will miss his thoughtfulness and his great BS detection. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Feb 24, 2014, at 12:16 PM, "Mcbride, Justin" > > > wrote: > I am crushed. I am so sorry to hear this. He was an excellent mentor, > a joy to work with, and a dear friend. -jtm > > On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 2:08 PM, John P. Boyle > > > wrote: > Thanks Dave. > > What a loss. Bob was such a tremendous figure in the field. He was > always generous with his time and comments especially to us younger > scholars. He is the reason for who I am today. I'm heartbroken. > > John Boyle > > From: David Kaufman > > Reply-To: Siouan Linguistics > > > Date: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:01 PM > > To: > > Subject: Sad news > > Dear all, > It is with much sadness that I let you know that Dr. Robert Rankin > has passed away. I don't have any further details at this time, but > I can pass on more info once I know more. The Kaw Nation was just > contacted within the last couple of hours about his passing. > I am extremely grateful that I got to visit Bob a couple of weeks ago. > Sincerely, > Dave > > David Kaufman > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > > > This email may contain identifiable personal information that is > subject to protection under state and federal law. This information > is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not > the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, > distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited > and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic > transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic > mail (reply). > > > > > > -- > Lori A. Stanley > Professor of Anthropology > Luther College > 700 College Drive > Decorah, Iowa 52101 > 563-387-1283 > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jfu at LAKHOTA.ORG Tue Feb 25 12:07:12 2014 From: jfu at LAKHOTA.ORG (Jan Ullrich) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2014 13:07:12 +0100 Subject: Sad news In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is devastating news. I knew Bob as someone who was always very kind and generous with his help and support. It is an terrible loss for Siouan linguistics. Condolences to his family. Jan From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of David Kaufman Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 9:01 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Sad news Dear all, It is with much sadness that I let you know that Dr. Robert Rankin has passed away. I don't have any further details at this time, but I can pass on more info once I know more. The Kaw Nation was just contacted within the last couple of hours about his passing. I am extremely grateful that I got to visit Bob a couple of weeks ago. Sincerely, Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wipamankere at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Feb 25 12:26:48 2014 From: wipamankere at HOTMAIL.COM (Iren Hartmann) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2014 06:26:48 -0600 Subject: Sad news In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I am still in shock! These are truly terrible news! There is so much more we needed to learn from him. Bob Rankin was one of the most humble, generous, knowledgeable and brilliant scholars I know. A real loss to all of us. Siouan conferences will never be the same again. My thoughts are with his family in this difficult time. - Iren Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 14:01:02 -0600 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Subject: Sad news To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Dear all, It is with much sadness that I let you know that Dr. Robert Rankin has passed away. I don't have any further details at this time, but I can pass on more info once I know more. The Kaw Nation was just contacted within the last couple of hours about his passing. I am extremely grateful that I got to visit Bob a couple of weeks ago. Sincerely, Dave David KaufmanLinguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU Tue Feb 25 16:59:01 2014 From: jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU (Mcbride, Justin) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2014 10:59:01 -0600 Subject: Sad news In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Does anyone have any word on any memorial arrangements or funeral services? Several of us probably live close enough to attend without experiencing too much travel hardship. On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 6:26 AM, Iren Hartmann wrote: > I am still in shock! These are truly terrible news! There is so much more > we needed to learn from him. Bob Rankin was one of the most humble, > generous, knowledgeable and brilliant scholars I know. A real loss to all > of us. Siouan conferences will never be the same again. > > My thoughts are with his family in this difficult time. > > - Iren > > ------------------------------ > Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 14:01:02 -0600 > From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM > Subject: Sad news > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > > > Dear all, > > It is with much sadness that I let you know that Dr. Robert Rankin has > passed away. I don't have any further details at this time, but I can pass > on more info once I know more. The Kaw Nation was just contacted within > the last couple of hours about his passing. > > I am extremely grateful that I got to visit Bob a couple of weeks ago. > > Sincerely, > > Dave > > David Kaufman > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kathleendshea at GMAIL.COM Tue Feb 25 19:01:25 2014 From: kathleendshea at GMAIL.COM (Kathleen D. Shea) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2014 11:01:25 -0800 Subject: Sad news In-Reply-To: <90299b654c6f4301a469a33a87b7a7a6@CO1PR01MB127.prod.exchangelabs.com> Message-ID: I'm without words, sad, and somewhat in shock. I will miss Bob greatly, as a friend, mentor, teacher, and scholar of the highest standards. It's hard to imagine the world without him. I had my first course in phonology with him back in the '70's, and he taught me almost everything I know about Siouan languages and comparative-historical linguistics. I'm glad I got to visit with Bob and his wife Carolyn in Lawrence shortly before Christmas, and I'm thinking of Carolyn and Bob's brother, who Dave says is also there, wishing that I were there, too, and that there was something I could do to help. Thanks for letting us know, Dave.... Kathy Shea Sent from my iPad > On Feb 24, 2014, at 4:50 PM, "De Reuse, Willem" wrote: > > Very sad. He was one of my Master's thesis advisors, and my first teacher of Siouan. My thoughts and prayers will go to him and his family. > > > Willem de Reuse > From: Siouan Linguistics on behalf of Scott Collins > Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 5:27 PM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Re: Sad news > > This is absolutely awful. > > Scott P. Collins > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR > > > Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle > > > “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” > > > "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." > > From: Lori Stanley > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 4:53 PM > Subject: Re: Sad news > > This is devastating news. Bob was a superb scholar, but beyond that he was a kind, compassionate, generous human being. What a huge loss for his family, friends, and the community of scholars. > > > > On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 3:48 PM, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > I don't know where to begin. It was Bob's knowledge and leadership that made the Comparative Siouan Dictionary possible. The emptiness he leaves behind is likely never to be filled. > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > > On Mon, 24 Feb 2014, Cumberland, Linda A wrote: > > I can only second the comments of all of you so far. It was my very great privilege to work so closely with Bob on Kaw language for so many years. Despite my neophyte status in comparison to his monumental career, he always treated me as a peer. I will miss our many exchanges, as I know we will all miss his generous and detailed contributions to the List. > > Linda Cumberland > > > Quoting "Greer, Jill" : > > A light has gone out for us all. I would never have studied a Siouan > language if Bob had not used his wonderful powers of persuasion to > convince Louanna Furbee to set aside Mayan languages for a little > while, from a sense of duty of being at Mizzou. He drove to > Columbia to give us a huge packet of materials, and did a long > workshop of introduction to Siouan linguistics. And that was just > the beginning. Not to mention opening his home for so many > gatherings. > So generous, so scholarly, so dedicated. > > Truly I?m heartbroken, too. > > From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf > Of Trechter, Sara > Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:19 PM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Re: Sad news > > This is truly sad. I will miss his thoughtfulness and his great BS detection. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Feb 24, 2014, at 12:16 PM, "Mcbride, Justin" > > > wrote: > I am crushed. I am so sorry to hear this. He was an excellent mentor, > a joy to work with, and a dear friend. -jtm > > On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 2:08 PM, John P. Boyle > > > wrote: > Thanks Dave. > > What a loss. Bob was such a tremendous figure in the field. He was > always generous with his time and comments especially to us younger > scholars. He is the reason for who I am today. I'm heartbroken. > > John Boyle > > From: David Kaufman > > Reply-To: Siouan Linguistics > > > Date: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:01 PM > > To: > > Subject: Sad news > > Dear all, > It is with much sadness that I let you know that Dr. Robert Rankin > has passed away. I don't have any further details at this time, but > I can pass on more info once I know more. The Kaw Nation was just > contacted within the last couple of hours about his passing. > I am extremely grateful that I got to visit Bob a couple of weeks ago. > Sincerely, > Dave > > David Kaufman > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > > > This email may contain identifiable personal information that is > subject to protection under state and federal law. This information > is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not > the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, > distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited > and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic > transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic > mail (reply). > > > > > > -- > Lori A. Stanley > Professor of Anthropology > Luther College > 700 College Drive > Decorah, Iowa 52101 > 563-387-1283 > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Tue Feb 25 19:08:33 2014 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2014 13:08:33 -0600 Subject: Sad news In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Update: I spoke with Bob's wife Carolyn last night. Bob passed away about 3:15 yesterday (Monday) morning at a hospital in Kansas City. He had been taken into emergency last week because of bleeding in the brain. Turns out the bleeding was caused by tumors found in his brain from the metathesized prostate cancer. They could no longer do kidney dialysis on account of this, and they knew then that it was only a matter of time. His body is being cremated. Carolyn is doing quite well under the circumstances. She said she may have a memorial service for Bob at the University of Kansas, but nothing definite has been arranged yet. I'll let you know when I hear anything further. Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 10:59 AM, Mcbride, Justin < jtmcbri at ostatemail.okstate.edu> wrote: > Does anyone have any word on any memorial arrangements or funeral > services? Several of us probably live close enough to attend without > experiencing too much travel hardship. > > > On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 6:26 AM, Iren Hartmann wrote: > >> I am still in shock! These are truly terrible news! There is so much more >> we needed to learn from him. Bob Rankin was one of the most humble, >> generous, knowledgeable and brilliant scholars I know. A real loss to all >> of us. Siouan conferences will never be the same again. >> >> My thoughts are with his family in this difficult time. >> >> - Iren >> >> ------------------------------ >> Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 14:01:02 -0600 >> From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM >> Subject: Sad news >> To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >> >> >> Dear all, >> >> It is with much sadness that I let you know that Dr. Robert Rankin has >> passed away. I don't have any further details at this time, but I can pass >> on more info once I know more. The Kaw Nation was just contacted within >> the last couple of hours about his passing. >> >> I am extremely grateful that I got to visit Bob a couple of weeks ago. >> >> Sincerely, >> >> Dave >> >> David Kaufman >> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kathleendshea at GMAIL.COM Tue Feb 25 19:25:49 2014 From: kathleendshea at GMAIL.COM (Kathleen D. Shea) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2014 11:25:49 -0800 Subject: Fwd: Sad news Message-ID: Sent from my iPad Begin forwarded message: > From: "Kathleen D. Shea" > Date: February 25, 2014 at 11:01:25 AM PST > To: Siouan Linguistics > Subject: Re: Sad news > > I'm without words, sad, and somewhat in shock. I will miss Bob greatly, as a friend, mentor, teacher, and scholar of the highest standards. It's hard to imagine the world without him. I had my first course in phonology with him back in the '70's, and he taught me almost everything I know about Siouan languages and comparative-historical linguistics. > > I'm glad I got to visit with Bob and his wife Carolyn in Lawrence shortly before Christmas, and I'm thinking of Carolyn and Bob's brother, who Dave says is also there, wishing that I were there, too, and that there was something I could do to help. Thanks for letting us know, Dave.... > > Kathy Shea > > Sent from my iPad > >> On Feb 24, 2014, at 4:50 PM, "De Reuse, Willem" wrote: >> >> Very sad. He was one of my Master's thesis advisors, and my first teacher of Siouan. My thoughts and prayers will go to him and his family. >> >> >> Willem de Reuse >> From: Siouan Linguistics on behalf of Scott Collins >> Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 5:27 PM >> To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >> Subject: Re: Sad news >> >> This is absolutely awful. >> >> Scott P. Collins >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR >> >> >> Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle >> >> >> “Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.” >> >> >> "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." >> >> From: Lori Stanley >> To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >> Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 4:53 PM >> Subject: Re: Sad news >> >> This is devastating news. Bob was a superb scholar, but beyond that he was a kind, compassionate, generous human being. What a huge loss for his family, friends, and the community of scholars. >> >> >> >> On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 3:48 PM, ROOD DAVID S wrote: >> I don't know where to begin. It was Bob's knowledge and leadership that made the Comparative Siouan Dictionary possible. The emptiness he leaves behind is likely never to be filled. >> >> David S. Rood >> Dept. of Linguistics >> Univ. of Colorado >> 295 UCB >> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >> USA >> rood at colorado.edu >> >> >> On Mon, 24 Feb 2014, Cumberland, Linda A wrote: >> >> I can only second the comments of all of you so far. It was my very great privilege to work so closely with Bob on Kaw language for so many years. Despite my neophyte status in comparison to his monumental career, he always treated me as a peer. I will miss our many exchanges, as I know we will all miss his generous and detailed contributions to the List. >> >> Linda Cumberland >> >> >> Quoting "Greer, Jill" : >> >> A light has gone out for us all. I would never have studied a Siouan >> language if Bob had not used his wonderful powers of persuasion to >> convince Louanna Furbee to set aside Mayan languages for a little >> while, from a sense of duty of being at Mizzou. He drove to >> Columbia to give us a huge packet of materials, and did a long >> workshop of introduction to Siouan linguistics. And that was just >> the beginning. Not to mention opening his home for so many >> gatherings. >> So generous, so scholarly, so dedicated. >> >> Truly I?m heartbroken, too. >> >> From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf >> Of Trechter, Sara >> Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:19 PM >> To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >> Subject: Re: Sad news >> >> This is truly sad. I will miss his thoughtfulness and his great BS detection. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Feb 24, 2014, at 12:16 PM, "Mcbride, Justin" >> > >> wrote: >> I am crushed. I am so sorry to hear this. He was an excellent mentor, >> a joy to work with, and a dear friend. -jtm >> >> On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 2:08 PM, John P. Boyle >> > >> wrote: >> Thanks Dave. >> >> What a loss. Bob was such a tremendous figure in the field. He was >> always generous with his time and comments especially to us younger >> scholars. He is the reason for who I am today. I'm heartbroken. >> >> John Boyle >> >> From: David Kaufman > >> Reply-To: Siouan Linguistics >> > >> Date: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:01 PM >> >> To: > >> Subject: Sad news >> >> Dear all, >> It is with much sadness that I let you know that Dr. Robert Rankin >> has passed away. I don't have any further details at this time, but >> I can pass on more info once I know more. The Kaw Nation was just >> contacted within the last couple of hours about his passing. >> I am extremely grateful that I got to visit Bob a couple of weeks ago. >> Sincerely, >> Dave >> >> David Kaufman >> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >> >> >> >> This email may contain identifiable personal information that is >> subject to protection under state and federal law. This information >> is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not >> the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, >> distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited >> and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic >> transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic >> mail (reply). >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Lori A. Stanley >> Professor of Anthropology >> Luther College >> 700 College Drive >> Decorah, Iowa 52101 >> 563-387-1283 >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rgraczyk at AOL.COM Wed Feb 26 02:04:56 2014 From: rgraczyk at AOL.COM (Randy Graczyk) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2014 21:04:56 -0500 Subject: Sad news In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bob was a scholar and a gentleman, and I learned so much from him about Siouan languages. We will all miss him--may he rest in peace. Randolph -----Original Message----- From: David Kaufman To: SIOUAN Sent: Tue, Feb 25, 2014 12:10 pm Subject: Re: Sad news Update: I spoke with Bob's wife Carolyn last night. Bob passed away about 3:15 yesterday (Monday) morning at a hospital in Kansas City. He had been taken into emergency last week because of bleeding in the brain. Turns out the bleeding was caused by tumors found in his brain from the metathesized prostate cancer. They could no longer do kidney dialysis on account of this, and they knew then that it was only a matter of time. His body is being cremated. Carolyn is doing quite well under the circumstances. She said she may have a memorial service for Bob at the University of Kansas, but nothing definite has been arranged yet. I'll let you know when I hear anything further. Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 10:59 AM, Mcbride, Justin wrote: Does anyone have any word on any memorial arrangements or funeral services? Several of us probably live close enough to attend without experiencing too much travel hardship. On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 6:26 AM, Iren Hartmann wrote: I am still in shock! These are truly terrible news! There is so much more we needed to learn from him. Bob Rankin was one of the most humble, generous, knowledgeable and brilliant scholars I know. A real loss to all of us. Siouan conferences will never be the same again. My thoughts are with his family in this difficult time. - Iren Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 14:01:02 -0600 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Subject: Sad news To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Dear all, It is with much sadness that I let you know that Dr. Robert Rankin has passed away. I don't have any further details at this time, but I can pass on more info once I know more. The Kaw Nation was just contacted within the last couple of hours about his passing. I am extremely grateful that I got to visit Bob a couple of weeks ago. Sincerely, Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From george.wilmes at GMAIL.COM Wed Feb 26 02:23:58 2014 From: george.wilmes at GMAIL.COM (George Wilmes) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2014 20:23:58 -0600 Subject: Sad news In-Reply-To: <8D100AE47ECA9EB-26E8-26CCD@webmail-d289.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: I'm grateful for the few opportunities that I had to meet Bob at the Siouan conferences, and for the legacy that he left in each of you. Thank you all for growing in Bob's light and becoming the people that he was so proud of. May your many fond memories of him bring you peace. On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 8:04 PM, Randy Graczyk wrote: > Bob was a scholar and a gentleman, and I learned so much from him about > Siouan languages. We will all miss him--may he rest in peace. > > Randolph > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: David Kaufman > To: SIOUAN > Sent: Tue, Feb 25, 2014 12:10 pm > Subject: Re: Sad news > > Update: I spoke with Bob's wife Carolyn last night. Bob passed away > about 3:15 yesterday (Monday) morning at a hospital in Kansas City. He had > been taken into emergency last week because of bleeding in the brain. > Turns out the bleeding was caused by tumors found in his brain from the > metathesized prostate cancer. They could no longer do kidney dialysis on > account of this, and they knew then that it was only a matter of time. His > body is being cremated. Carolyn is doing quite well under the > circumstances. She said she may have a memorial service for Bob at the > University of Kansas, but nothing definite has been arranged yet. I'll let > you know when I hear anything further. > > Dave > > David Kaufman > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > > On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 10:59 AM, Mcbride, Justin < > jtmcbri at ostatemail.okstate.edu> wrote: > >> Does anyone have any word on any memorial arrangements or funeral >> services? Several of us probably live close enough to attend without >> experiencing too much travel hardship. >> >> >> On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 6:26 AM, Iren Hartmann wrote: >> >>> I am still in shock! These are truly terrible news! There is so much >>> more we needed to learn from him. Bob Rankin was one of the most humble, >>> generous, knowledgeable and brilliant scholars I know. A real loss to all >>> of us. Siouan conferences will never be the same again. >>> >>> My thoughts are with his family in this difficult time. >>> >>> - Iren >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 14:01:02 -0600 >>> From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM >>> Subject: Sad news >>> To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >>> >>> >>> Dear all, >>> >>> It is with much sadness that I let you know that Dr. Robert Rankin has >>> passed away. I don't have any further details at this time, but I can pass >>> on more info once I know more. The Kaw Nation was just contacted within >>> the last couple of hours about his passing. >>> >>> I am extremely grateful that I got to visit Bob a couple of weeks ago. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> David Kaufman >>> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >>> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >>> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Kathleen.Danker at SDSTATE.EDU Thu Feb 27 02:34:00 2014 From: Kathleen.Danker at SDSTATE.EDU (Danker, Kathleen) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2014 02:34:00 +0000 Subject: Sad news In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I am so sorry to hear this. Bob was such a kind man and brilliant scholar. Kathleen Danker From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of David Kaufman Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:01 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Sad news Dear all, It is with much sadness that I let you know that Dr. Robert Rankin has passed away. I don't have any further details at this time, but I can pass on more info once I know more. The Kaw Nation was just contacted within the last couple of hours about his passing. I am extremely grateful that I got to visit Bob a couple of weeks ago. Sincerely, Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Thu Feb 27 11:52:21 2014 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm Goodtracks) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2014 05:52:21 -0600 Subject: Aho! In-Reply-To: <000601cf3007$ac3f2f00$04bd8d00$@com> Message-ID: ** say (accidentally ~ falsely) v.i. é^e. say (in bad sense, slander, reproof) v.t. ga^íge; gáigé. say all that is ~ needs to be said; say it all; tell all the news; leave no news to be told by anyone (all the news; nothing more to be said; have the last word) adv/v.i. ich^é rašéna; ich^é raníŋe: (I..., ich^é hadásena; you..., ich^é sdásena; we..., ich^é hindásenawi; they…, ich^é dasénañe). They were dissatisfied and disputed with each other, so I told them what the Old People said about it. And then, that was it, I had said everything (that needed be said), Inbran škúñiñena ekígragunheñe ke. Héda Š^áge gá^naha wórageñe dáhge^i wógihe ke. Aré gašún ke; ich^é hadášena ke. say as follows v.i. ga^é. It (a newspaper article) said, ‘Two Indians quarreled on the reservation and one Francis White Cloud was killed,’ Áre ga^é: “Wan^šhínk^okeñi núwe kidágewi ke; Frances White Cloud iyánki ch^ehi ke.” [Film: Ioway II; PF). say as follows to another v.t. ga^é^a. They said as follows to him, Ga^igáñe ke. say as follows to them (in reproof) v.t. gawíge. Whenever he went back to Kansas or Nebraska he said to them as follows to the leaders, the Chiefs, that it was good, Tatándan Kánsa Ñibráthge háhda gréna Nudánhan gawíge -- Gašun wéxa ke. [FILM: “Ioway” Part II; JBSM]. say in reply to someone v.i. jeáre e^a. say s.t. good or bad about others v.t. wíge. Tell me straight (Muskrat told him), Wókathoxšji híínge áñe ke. say that (in scolding manner) v.t. šége (DOR). Something was the matter, so I said that, Daguréšun^na šéhage ke. say that; think that v.t. sé^e. That’s what he said, Aré éihun (or) Aré é ke. say, said that (in reply) v.t. še áre^e; sé aré é^a. I said that (or) That’s what I said, Še áre ihé ke. We said that (or) That’s what we said, Šeáre hinháwi ke. say this to another v.t. jé aré é^a. say to v.t. é^a (dor). He said it to him, É^a ke. I said that to him, Šeáre ihé^a ke. From: Sky Campbell Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2014 1:52 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! I found a strike against my "-ke/-ge" idea referring to "in like manner." In Hamilton's An Elementary Book of the Ioway Language, page 34-35, he has the following line: a-ræ-fkæ-mvn-yæ-we-ræ - do ye likewise (arethke manyiwi re) In that situation, he has the "ithke" before the verb and not after (which was my idea). After a quick scan of the rest of the book, I found examples of imperatives both with and without the "ka" in the hymns but I didn't immediately see anything that cleared up my confusion. And in keeping with the idea that perhaps this might be an older thing, I did a quick run through Merrill's First Ioway Reading Book and in his prayer (Lesson 12, page 13), he has the line: Nl-ce pe of-kon-kl-ra (Nąnje pi uk'ųka re) - Give me a good heart. (I wonder with the possible nasal "f" that Merrill put in there if it is supposed to be a contraction of "uhįnk'ų" to become "ųnk'ų" to say "give me".) So here we have another use of "ka" from a source other than Hamilton. I haven't gone through his hymns yet though. But no clues so far as I can tell. However I am noticing "me" being in a few of these but it may just be a coincidence. And on the off chance that this "ka" might be something that means plural (maybe an alternate way to end commands to command more than one person besides using -wi), I remembered a very odd term from Maximilian's word list where he had: guj-n - we alone To date, I have never seen the prefix "gu-" to mean "we" anywhere else. And it may not be connected in any way to the "ka/ga" we are talking about but I thought I'd put it out there. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2014 12:26 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! Going along with the "now" idea, I'm going to keep an eye out for the full form of "gasun" in these instances along with anything that will give some clues for this. I've been working a lot with Hamilton's material lately so I'll be sure to go over it thoroughly. As far as "ich'a re/it'a re", I wonder if these forms have something to do with the d/t changing to ch/j (IE te/che for buffalo and inde/inje for face) with some terms. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2014 8:52 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! Hánwe Pi: Jill says: I can't help but think that it's somehow ga- the locational prefix for something you can see, but not directly next to 1st and 2nd person (gaida 'over there (but not yonder)', gaigu, etc. - which could ultimately be related to gasuN also. It might clarify actual location, or be used metaphorically for 'now/soon' even by itself. Now applying that to the sentences, æ-ka-ræ - say it, speak = á re/ é ga re (Say it now!) jwæ-me-ka-ræ - doctor me = swéhi re/ swémi ga re (Doctor me now!) e-cæ-ka-ræ - speak thou, tell = i^cha re/ i^che ga re (Speak now!) ~~ [Jill, in the imperative, is it not ~ it^a re ?????] wo-ug-ka-ræ - work thou = wa^ún ne/ wa^ún ga re (Work it now!) ru-meg-ka-ræ - buy it = rúmi re/ rúmi ga re (Buy it now!) It does seem to apply in application above. Now, if that being so, why o’ why does it not show up in any other texts, except Hamilton? I suppose it could have been a spoken form of the period (pre- 1850’s) that was used and then dropped by latter generations. It is noted in the dictionary, these applications that may produce a “ga”: ga-... prf. just; exactly. **SEE: gašún; gaída. ga^é v.i. say as follows. Hinkúñi ga^é: “Gá^e koíth^in hinnahá^e,” é ki, My grandmother said as follows: “He is the one we were talking about.” ga^é^a v.t. say as follows to another. They said as follows to him…, Ga^igáñe… ke. Hintágwa ga^ihé^a: “Áannegradànwe hñe ke,” ihé ke, I said as follows to my grandson: “You will give me (your own one) your attention,” I told him. ga^íge; gáigé v.i. say that (in bad sence, slander, reproof). Áre iwáhuŋe škúñi ke Wan^síge ga^igeñe ke, Some people say that he does not know (anything, but in truth, the real facts support the opposite is true). Héda wánsha xóñitan gawٕígena wakánda píškúñi warúdhe hñe ke, And that old man preacher rebuked them, saying the devil was going to get them for their sins. gá iráyin; ga^írayin v.t. think that; make up one’s mind. Gá ihádayin nu^á kó^o ha^ún škúñi ke, although, I have made up my mind, I have not yet done it (the work). Sré hñe israyin je, Do you think that you will go? **SEE: iráyin; wáge. gá iré v.t. think that; think as follows. Tanhédan gratógre hinnáwišge pí nu^áre ga iháre ke, If we were all going together, I think that it would be good. **SEE: iré; gaída. Jimm From: Greer, Jill Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2014 1:03 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! Hi, Sky, Interesting! This is my gut response, without any new examples unfortunately. I can't help but think that it's somehow ga- the locational prefix for something you can see, but not directly next to 1st and 2nd person (gaida 'over there (but not yonder)', gaigu, etc. - which could ultimately be related to gasuN also. It might clarify actual location, or be used metaphorically for 'now/soon' even by itself. Regarding your concern about it occurring after the verb, I can think of the common phrase Are gasuN khi 'It's okay/that's all right' , which looks like it could be in other parts of a sentence, too, besides the beginning? Your last idea seems possible also, about thge 'to be thus' which could be a result ablauting before the command? I don't know if the initial fricative was missed by Hamilton, or was deleted. (Sort of like 'Walk this way' :) …) Is there any precedent in other Siouan languages for an emphatic form related to IOM kHe huN' ? I had the thought IF it were abbreviated to kHe, and occurred next to the -re 'command form', it could ablaut to kha , and make an emphatic command. (I have developed a personal English variant of that myself with my youngest son, Do X RIGHT NOW! (Sometimes followed by 'I'm not joking', just in case he's still not listening…) It's getting late, so forgive me if I'm stretching the limits of Siouan ablaut rules. Thanks for the examples, Sky. I know I've read through Hamilton but had forgotten that peculiarity. Help us out, friends. Iren, is there such a thing in Hochunk, too? Jill On Feb 21, 2014, at 11:24 PM, Sky Campbell wrote: I'll show a few more examples from Hamilton that may help. The example I gave (wa-ka a-ta-ka-ræ) was from Hamilton's An Ioway Grammar, page 29. The following examples are from Hamilton's An Elementary Book of the Ioway Language. Perhaps these examples can help us find a common theme between them. I'll show imperatives with and without the extra "ka" syllable. FYI I'll also be using Hamilton's orthography. æ-ka-ræ - say it, speak (page 21) I've seen that as simply "a re" where the verb "e" for "say" changes to "a" for the imperative. na-yæ-ræ - stand up (no "ka" here) (page 22) ya-wæ-ræ - sing thou (no "ka" here) (page 23) u-yu-ræ - fill it (no "ka" here) (page 24) u-we-ra - do it (no "ka" here and is in plural form with the suffix -wi...might also be a typo since they went with "ra" rather than "ræ" unless he went for a possible female form but I'm doubting that since everything else seems to be exclusively in the male form) (page 24) hu-we-ræ - come here (no "ka" here and another plural form (page 24) ru-fæ-ræ - take it (no "ka" here) (page 24) ma-yæ-ræ - walk thou (no "ka" here (page 25) a-ta-ræ - see thou (no "ka" here and it is the same thing as my original example but without the "ka") (page 25) jwæ-me-ka-ræ - doctor me (page 29) e-cæ-ka-ræ - speak thou, tell (page 30) wo-ug-ka-ræ - work thou (page 30) ru-meg-ka-ræ - buy it (page 30) me-na-we-ræ - sit ye down (no "ka" here and is in plural form) (page 30) ke-kræ-we-ho - be ye gone (no "ka" here and is in plural form...also in the more polite imperative using "ho" instead of "re") (page 30) u-jkun-yæ-ræ - do not do it (no "ka" here) (page 31) wo-ku-we-ræ - give them (no "ka" here and is in plural form) (page 31) Ok, this should do for now. Typing out this list has given me a few tentative ideas that I need to flesh out but I'll be grateful for any input :). Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 9:33 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! That is an interesting find, and all your explanations are plausible, especially the 2nd one. I do not recall coming across this before, and I can not find any thing like it in the IOM Dictionary. The imperative works just as you say, and I know of no deviation. The collected texts from Dorsey, and those from Julia Small, a monolingual speaker, did not have examples as you have found. The mystery needs be reviewed by a higher power, namely the Siouan List, to whom I am going to cc this reply for their input by the professional experts and those who may have some explanation for this occurrence, or able to leave as a Hamilton phenomena. From: Campbell, Sky Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 10:44 AM To: Jimm G. GoodTracks Subject: Aho! Hope all is well up your way J. Quick question about something I’ve noticed in Hamilton and Irvin’s books. After some of the commands/imperatives, there is an extra syllable after the verb. For example, they have: wa-ka a-ta-ka-ræ – see the snake I have no idea what the “ka” is doing after (what would be for us) “ada”. But with Hamilton, he doesn’t differentiate between “k” and “g” so it may actually be a “g” for us. He uses this quite a bit for commands but I’m not understanding why and so far I haven’t found any clues. From what I can tell, it isn’t a form of plural since he uses –wi and he uses the singular 2nd person when the “ka” is used. And he doesn’t always use it for the singular imperative form which is what adds to my confusion. I have 3 possibilities that spring to mind. First, the “ka” might be a contracted form of “gasun” which perhaps might be indicating that whatever the speaker wants done, they want it done now. Not sure about this one since you usually see “gasun” at the beginning of a statement. Second is that the ending imperative “re” may actually be a contraction of an older form “kare/gare” and it has just stopped being used. That one is just a random guess LOL. Finally, I am wondering if the “ka” is actually perhaps “ke/ge” to refer to “in like manner” (ithke) but since it is an imperative, the “e” changes to an “a”. If so, then the above sentence would perhaps say something like “Look at the snake (in like manner).” And if so, I wonder if the context of the conversation would indicate just exactly what the “like manner” means. What do you think? Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org ­­ This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 519 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Thu Feb 27 19:46:51 2014 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2014 13:46:51 -0600 Subject: Memorial service for Bob Rankin Message-ID: Hi all, We've received word from Bob's wife, Carolyn, that there will be a Memorial Service for him at the Kansas Union, University of Kansas, from 1:00-3:00 on Tuesday, March 11, in the English Room on the 6th floor. It is apparently a "come and go" type of service during that 2-hour period. The Kansas Union is a multistory building located next to the multilevel parking structure near the University of Kansas (KU) entrance. The nearest airport would be Kansas City International (MCI). KU is conveniently situated near I-70, the Kansas Turnpike, in Lawrence, KS. Sincerely and with kind regards, Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK Thu Feb 27 21:21:13 2014 From: shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK (bruce Ingham) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2014 21:21:13 +0000 Subject: Memorial service for Bob Rankin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I was very sad to hear about Bob. I saw him many times at the Siouanists, the first time in Regina in 1999 and the last in Billings, Montana in 2006. He was a good friend and I wish I had seen him more often recently. My respects to his family. Bruce On 27 Feb 2014, at 19:46, David Kaufman wrote: > Hi all, > > We've received word from Bob's wife, Carolyn, that there will be a Memorial Service for him at the Kansas Union, University of Kansas, from 1:00-3:00 on Tuesday, March 11, in the English Room on the 6th floor. It is apparently a "come and go" type of service during that 2-hour period. > > The Kansas Union is a multistory building located next to the multilevel parking structure near the University of Kansas (KU) entrance. The nearest airport would be Kansas City International (MCI). KU is conveniently situated near I-70, the Kansas Turnpike, in Lawrence, KS. > > Sincerely and with kind regards, > > Dave > > David Kaufman > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Thu Feb 27 21:25:36 2014 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2014 15:25:36 -0600 Subject: Comments and condolences sent to Carolyn Rankin Message-ID: Hi all, Just a note that I copied and pasted your comments on Bob's death to an attachment that I just sent to Carolyn, his wife. It amounted to 3 pages. I'm sure she'll find solace in the many kind words. Thank you. Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Thu Feb 27 21:44:26 2014 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm Goodtracks) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2014 15:44:26 -0600 Subject: Comments and condolences sent to Carolyn Rankin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, Dave, I was wondering about that, i.e., how all of our words could be indeed relayed to her. Jimm From: David Kaufman Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2014 3:25 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Comments and condolences sent to Carolyn Rankin Hi all, Just a note that I copied and pasted your comments on Bob's death to an attachment that I just sent to Carolyn, his wife. It amounted to 3 pages. I'm sure she'll find solace in the many kind words. Thank you. Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Thu Feb 27 22:54:14 2014 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Greer, Jill) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2014 22:54:14 +0000 Subject: Comments and condolences sent to Carolyn Rankin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, Dave, That was very kind - thank you for thinking of that. Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of David Kaufman Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2014 3:26 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Comments and condolences sent to Carolyn Rankin Hi all, Just a note that I copied and pasted your comments on Bob's death to an attachment that I just sent to Carolyn, his wife. It amounted to 3 pages. I'm sure she'll find solace in the many kind words. Thank you. Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From carudin1 at WSC.EDU Thu Feb 27 23:27:06 2014 From: carudin1 at WSC.EDU (Catherine Rudin) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2014 17:27:06 -0600 Subject: Comments and condolences sent to Carolyn Rankin Message-ID: Good idea, Dave. Thanks. >>> "Greer, Jill" 02/27/14 4:55 PM >>> Hi, Dave, That was very kind * thank you for thinking of that. Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu]On Behalf Of David Kaufman Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2014 3:26 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Comments and condolences sent to Carolyn Rankin Hi all, Just a note that I copied and pasted your comments on Bob's death to an attachment that I just sent to Carolyn, his wife. It amounted to 3 pages. I'm sure she'll find solace in the many kind words. Thank you. Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG Fri Feb 28 18:18:59 2014 From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2014 12:18:59 -0600 Subject: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dave, Not sure if you are still into this but I found this today. William Hamilton and Samuel Irvin have on page 33 of their Elementary Book of the Ioway Language: ha-u-ha-mvn-yæ – I always do so This would be: Ha’ų hamanyi ha’ų – I do hamanyi – I walk/I always Here you have both conjugated in the first person using the prefix “ha-“. There are other examples out there but I need to find them. Hope this helps. Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of David Kaufman Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 12:54 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives Thanks Rory and Justin for the feedback. On another note, I've also been wondering about how serial verbs are handled in Siouan in general. In the Kaw data, when two verbs come together, the second verb always conjugates for person while the first looks like it can either conjugate to match the second verb or it can stay in the third person (neutral) form. I seem to recall that in Biloxi, serial verbs *always* match, first and second verbs having the same person conjugation. What do other Siouan languages do in regards to this? Are there any hard and fast rules about this? Thanks again! Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 5:15 PM, Rory Larson > wrote: Thanks for the analysis, Justin. That makes much better sense than what I had suggested. Very interesting that the Kaw (a)be particle, which should be either cognate or closely related to the Omaha (a)bi particle, can ablaut. I wasn’t aware of that; it’s good to know. Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mcbride, Justin Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 3:00 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives For what it's worth, I believe that what appears to be a second token of aba in the example, aba-daN is actually a different type altogether. In this case, I think it's a case of the verb e(e), 'to say', plus the -(a)be completive aspect marker plus the conjunction -(a)daN, 'and' [e(e)-(a)be-(a)daN > aba-daN]. If so, then, that one really is just 's/he said and,' and the first one is actually the subject marker. But that's not to say that there aren't other examples of the quotative use of subject markers in Ks, even within the same text. Here's an example of quotative akHa: iccikkitaNga akha oo aNs^i waali miNkHe akHa. The Old Man said, "Oh, I'm getting fat." This case is much clearer to my way of thinking because there are two verbal auxiliaries marking the same state (in this case, at rest) back-to-back, one of which refers to 1st person (miNkHe, part of the quotation), and one 3rd person (akHa, marks quotation). It's curious to note that in the audio for this, the speaker laughs after miNkHe and then almost catches her breath before saying akHa, which would indicate to me that she felt it was essential for concluding the sentence. It's interesting to me in that it seems that the entire quoted clause is acting almost like a verb following the canonical pattern (subject) SUBJ (verb) AUX, where SUBJ and AUX match shape in the continuative aspect, as in s^idoz^iNga akHa ghaage akHa, 'the boy is crying.' -jtm On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 1:50 PM, Rory Larson > wrote: Hi Dave, In Omaha and Ponca, the corresponding article is amá, where you have abá. As with Kaw, it tends to imply ‘moving/absent’. But we also have another particle, apparently pronounced the same way, coming at the end of the sentence, that implies that the foregoing is hearsay rather than solid fact. It can stand by itself, or it can be coupled with the ‘allegedly’ particle bi to make the common ending for 3rd person hearsay action, biama. I notice the accent changes to the first syllable in the second case of your example. I wonder if that could be underlyingly a-aba in that case? The first would be the ablauted version of ‘he said it’, followed by either the Old Man’s article abá or a ‘hearsay’ particle as in OP. One problem with that would be that the ‘hearsay’ amá in OP shouldn’t cause a preceding verb to ablaut. My $0.02. Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of David Kaufman Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 1:30 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives Hi all, I have a question re: a curious structure in Kaw, and whether anything like it occurs in other Dhegihan or even non-Dhegihan Siouan languages. The structure involves the articles akhá and abá, used for subjects in Kaw and usually translated 'the', the first being roughly for 'standing/sitting' and the other for 'moving/absent'. However, in Kaw, these subject articles also somehow seem to have become used as quotatives, or 's/he said.' Here is an example sentence with gloss: Icíkitanga abá, “Anyáxtaga-édan,” ába-dan, nanstábe. Old.Man said bite.me-then said-then kicked.him The Old Man said, “Then bite me,” and he kicked him. So abá, which is normally used for 'moving' subjects and is usually translated 'the', is now being used for 's/he said.' Any thoughts on this, esp. from other Dhegihan perspectives, or other Siouan languages that might have some similar usage? Thanks! David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Fri Feb 28 18:32:08 2014 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2014 12:32:08 -0600 Subject: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E436C33F6A4D9D@Server6-EX.omtribe.net> Message-ID: Sky, thanks for this! I think I'm going to go through and compile a list of attested Kaw serial verbs and how they're conjugated. Bryan seems to think that there could be a sub-category of serial verbs where the first verb is not conjugated though the second one is. Not sure how far I can get with this, but I may try and present this, at least the Kaw case, as a paper at the SCLC in May. Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program On Fri, Feb 28, 2014 at 12:18 PM, Campbell, Sky wrote: > Dave, > > > > Not sure if you are still into this but I found this today. William > Hamilton and Samuel Irvin have on page 33 of their *Elementary Book of > the Ioway Language*: > > > > ha-u-ha-mvn-yæ – I always do so > > > > This would be: > > > > Ha’ų hamanyi > > > > ha’ų – I do > > > > hamanyi – I walk/I always > > > > Here you have both conjugated in the first person using the prefix “ha-“. > There are other examples out there but I need to find them. > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > *Sky Campbell, B. A.* > > Language Director > > Otoe-Missouria Tribe > > 580-723-4466 ext. 111 > > sky at omtribe.org > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of > *David Kaufman > > *Sent:* Friday, February 21, 2014 12:54 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > > *Subject:* Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives > > > > Thanks Rory and Justin for the feedback. > > > > On another note, I've also been wondering about how serial verbs are > handled in Siouan in general. In the Kaw data, when two verbs come > together, the second verb always conjugates for person while the first > looks like it can either conjugate to match the second verb or it can stay > in the third person (neutral) form. I seem to recall that in Biloxi, > serial verbs *always* match, first and second verbs having the same person > conjugation. What do other Siouan languages do in regards to this? Are > there any hard and fast rules about this? > > > > Thanks again! > > > > Dave > > > David Kaufman > > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > > > On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 5:15 PM, Rory Larson wrote: > > Thanks for the analysis, Justin. That makes much better sense than what I > had suggested. Very interesting that the Kaw (a)be particle, which should > be either cognate or closely related to the Omaha (a)bi particle, can > ablaut. I wasn’t aware of that; it’s good to know. > > > > Best, > > Rory > > > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of > *Mcbride, Justin > *Sent:* Thursday, February 20, 2014 3:00 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU > *Subject:* Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives > > > > For what it's worth, I believe that what appears to be a second token of > aba in the example, aba-daN is actually a different type altogether. In > this case, I think it's a case of the verb e(e), 'to say', plus the -(a)be > completive aspect marker plus the conjunction -(a)daN, 'and' > [e(e)-(a)be-(a)daN > aba-daN]. If so, then, that one really is just 's/he > said and,' and the first one is actually the subject marker. But that's not > to say that there aren't other examples of the quotative use of subject > markers in Ks, even within the same text. Here's an example of quotative > akHa: > > > > iccikkitaNga akha oo aNs^i waali miNkHe akHa. > > The Old Man said, "Oh, I'm getting fat." > > > > This case is much clearer to my way of thinking because there are two > verbal auxiliaries marking the same state (in this case, at rest) > back-to-back, one of which refers to 1st person (miNkHe, part of the > quotation), and one 3rd person (akHa, marks quotation). It's curious to > note that in the audio for this, the speaker laughs after miNkHe and then > almost catches her breath before saying akHa, which would indicate to me > that she felt it was essential for concluding the sentence. It's > interesting to me in that it seems that the entire quoted clause is acting > almost like a verb following the canonical pattern (subject) SUBJ (verb) > AUX, where SUBJ and AUX match shape in the continuative aspect, as in > s^idoz^iNga akHa ghaage akHa, 'the boy is crying.' > > > > -jtm > > > > On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 1:50 PM, Rory Larson wrote: > > Hi Dave, > > > > In Omaha and Ponca, the corresponding article is amá, where you have abá. > As with Kaw, it tends to imply ‘moving/absent’. But we also have another > particle, apparently pronounced the same way, coming at the end of the > sentence, that implies that the foregoing is hearsay rather than solid > fact. It can stand by itself, or it can be coupled with the ‘allegedly’ > particle bi to make the common ending for 3rd person hearsay action, > biama. > > > > I notice the accent changes to the first syllable in the second case of > your example. I wonder if that could be underlyingly a-aba in that case? > The first would be the ablauted version of ‘he said it’, followed by either > the Old Man’s article abá or a ‘hearsay’ particle as in OP. One problem > with that would be that the ‘hearsay’ amá in OP shouldn’t cause a preceding > verb to ablaut. > > > > My $0.02. > > > > Best, > > Rory > > > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of > *David Kaufman > *Sent:* Thursday, February 20, 2014 1:30 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU > *Subject:* Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives > > > > Hi all, > > > > I have a question re: a curious structure in Kaw, and whether anything > like it occurs in other Dhegihan or even non-Dhegihan Siouan languages. > The structure involves the articles akhá and abá, used for subjects in Kaw > and usually translated 'the', the first being roughly for > 'standing/sitting' and the other for 'moving/absent'. However, in Kaw, > these subject articles also somehow seem to have become used as quotatives, > or 's/he said.' Here is an example sentence with gloss: > > > > *Icíkitanga abá, “Anyáxtaga-édan,” ába-dan, nanstábe.* > > Old.Man said bite.me-then said-then kicked.him > > The Old Man said, “Then bite me,” and he kicked him. > > > > So abá, which is normally used for 'moving' subjects and is usually > translated 'the', is now being used for 's/he said.' > > > > Any thoughts on this, esp. from other Dhegihan perspectives, or other > Siouan languages that might have some similar usage? > > > > Thanks! > > > > > David Kaufman > > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > > > > > ­­ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lcumberl at INDIANA.EDU Fri Feb 28 20:33:26 2014 From: lcumberl at INDIANA.EDU (Cumberland, Linda A) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2014 15:33:26 -0500 Subject: Comments and condolences sent to Carolyn Rankin In-Reply-To: <530F75670200008E000AC251@hermes.wsc.edu> Message-ID: In fact, I have been corresponding with Carolyn about this. I will be sending a tidied-up version of these comments to her (eliminating repetitions, email addresses, footers, etc) so she can have the out for others to appreciate at the memorial gathering next week. I'll be sending these to her tomorrow, in case anyone else out there would like to include a message. Linda Quoting Catherine Rudin : > Good idea, Dave. Thanks. > >>>> "Greer, Jill" 02/27/14 4:55 PM >>> > Hi, Dave, > That was very kind * thank you for thinking of that. > Jill > > From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu]On Behalf Of > David Kaufman > Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2014 3:26 PM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Comments and condolences sent to Carolyn Rankin > > Hi all, > > > Just a note that I copied and pasted your comments on Bob's death to an > attachment that I just sent to Carolyn, his wife. It amounted to 3 > pages. I'm sure she'll find solace in the many kind words. Thank you. > > > > Dave > > > > David Kaufman > > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > > > > > > > This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject > to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended > for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended > recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of > the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by > law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please > notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). > From linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU Fri Feb 28 20:41:14 2014 From: linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU (Bryan James Gordon) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2014 13:41:14 -0700 Subject: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Really, there are many different configurations of verbs-in-a-row with respect to which ones are conjugated for what. I say "verbs-in-a-row" in order to avoid the issue of precisely determining what are "serial verbs" as opposed to other types of constructions, and the separate but related issue of figuring out what the appropriate classification is in Siouan languages vis-à-vis linguistic theory in general. Some more examples from Umóⁿhoⁿ Íye and Páⁿka Íye: *"verb plus grammaticalised auxiliary"* I would include in this category any use of the positionals as an auxiliary, certainly as a continuative or future-tense marker, possibly as evidential too. *In these examples the main verb DOES receive subject inflection in Umóⁿhoⁿ Íye or Páⁿka Íye.* íye-akʰa "S/he [prominent figure] is speaking" itháe-miⁿkʰe "I am speaking" aⁿtháⁿe-taⁿgatʰaⁿ "we are going to speak" (taⁿgatʰaⁿ = te "potential" + aⁿgatʰaⁿ which is the "we" form of tʰaⁿ "standing positional") *"verb plus not-quite-as-grammaticalised auxiliary"* This includes examples like the one Sky just posted from Báxoje Ich^é, in which the auxiliary is something that can also serve as a main verb. *In these examples the main verb receives subject pronominals, but NOT plural/proximate marking in Umóⁿhoⁿ Íye or Páⁿka Íye.* íye naⁿzhíⁿi "S/he [prominent figure] is about to speak / is speaking as s/he stands" *not *íya naⁿzhíⁿi as it would be if the main verb were inflected for number/proximacy* anáⁿ'aⁿ maⁿbthíⁿ "I am listening as I walk" *not *naⁿ'áⁿ maⁿbthíⁿ as it would be if the main verb did not get its subject pronominal* *"desire-raising"* Umóⁿhoⁿ Íye and Páⁿka Íye raise the subject of the complement clause of gáⁿtha "desire" to the syntactic object of gáⁿtha. The complement verb gets subject inflection for the same argument, so the argument appears twice. Shkí wikáⁿbtha "I want you to come back" *not *gí wikáⁿbtha as it would be if the complement verb were uninflected, and not *shkí káⁿbtha as it would be if there were no raising* *As in the "not-quite-as-grammaticalised auxiliary" examples, "desire-raising" constructions have number/proximacy marking only on the final verb, not on the complement verb.* wachígaxe ewékoⁿbtha "I want them to dance" ("Adventures of the orphan", JOD 1890:601.5) *not *wachígaxa(i) ewékoⁿbtha as it would be if the complement verb had number marking* *"command-raising"* Unlike "desire-raising", the complement of ágazhi "command" is not inflected at all. unáⁿ'aⁿ aⁿthágazhi "you told me to hear about it" *not *uánaⁿ'aⁿ aⁿthágazhi as it would be if the complement verb were inflected* The distinction between the "desire-raising" and "command-raising" categories is what I was referring to with my vague talk about subcategorisation. I expect there are many more members of both categories, and more complications that I have not reported, and more categories that I have either not discovered or have simply escaped me. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU Fri Feb 28 20:43:51 2014 From: linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU (Bryan James Gordon) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2014 13:43:51 -0700 Subject: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: (And of course, as the syntacticians will rightly point out, the "command-raising" is not raising at all, but control. I'm more interested in figuring what types of verbs-in-a-row there are, though, and avoiding terminological debates.) 2014-02-28 13:41 GMT-07:00 Bryan James Gordon : > Really, there are many different configurations of verbs-in-a-row with > respect to which ones are conjugated for what. I say "verbs-in-a-row" in > order to avoid the issue of precisely determining what are "serial verbs" > as opposed to other types of constructions, and the separate but related > issue of figuring out what the appropriate classification is in Siouan > languages vis-à-vis linguistic theory in general. > > Some more examples from Umóⁿhoⁿ Íye and Páⁿka Íye: > > *"verb plus grammaticalised auxiliary"* > I would include in this category any use of the positionals as an > auxiliary, certainly as a continuative or future-tense marker, possibly as > evidential too. *In these examples the main verb DOES receive subject > inflection in Umóⁿhoⁿ Íye or Páⁿka Íye.* > íye-akʰa "S/he [prominent figure] is speaking" > itháe-miⁿkʰe "I am speaking" > aⁿtháⁿe-taⁿgatʰaⁿ "we are going to speak" (taⁿgatʰaⁿ = te "potential" + > aⁿgatʰaⁿ which is the "we" form of tʰaⁿ "standing positional") > > *"verb plus not-quite-as-grammaticalised auxiliary"* > This includes examples like the one Sky just posted from Báxoje Ich^é, in > which the auxiliary is something that can also serve as a main verb. *In > these examples the main verb receives subject pronominals, but NOT > plural/proximate marking in Umóⁿhoⁿ Íye or Páⁿka Íye.* > íye naⁿzhíⁿi "S/he [prominent figure] is about to speak / is speaking as > s/he stands" *not *íya naⁿzhíⁿi as it would be if the main verb were > inflected for number/proximacy* > anáⁿ'aⁿ maⁿbthíⁿ "I am listening as I walk" *not *naⁿ'áⁿ maⁿbthíⁿ as it > would be if the main verb did not get its subject pronominal* > > *"desire-raising"* > Umóⁿhoⁿ Íye and Páⁿka Íye raise the subject of the complement clause of > gáⁿtha "desire" to the syntactic object of gáⁿtha. The complement verb gets > subject inflection for the same argument, so the argument appears twice. > Shkí wikáⁿbtha "I want you to come back" *not *gí wikáⁿbtha as it would > be if the complement verb were uninflected, and not *shkí káⁿbtha as it > would be if there were no raising* > *As in the "not-quite-as-grammaticalised auxiliary" examples, > "desire-raising" constructions have number/proximacy marking only on the > final verb, not on the complement verb.* > wachígaxe ewékoⁿbtha "I want them to dance" ("Adventures of the orphan", > JOD 1890:601.5) *not *wachígaxa(i) ewékoⁿbtha as it would be if the > complement verb had number marking* > > *"command-raising"* > Unlike "desire-raising", the complement of ágazhi "command" is not > inflected at all. > unáⁿ'aⁿ aⁿthágazhi "you told me to hear about it" *not *uánaⁿ'aⁿ > aⁿthágazhi as it would be if the complement verb were inflected* > > The distinction between the "desire-raising" and "command-raising" > categories is what I was referring to with my vague talk about > subcategorisation. I expect there are many more members of both categories, > and more complications that I have not reported, and more categories that I > have either not discovered or have simply escaped me. > -- *********************************************************** Bryan James Gordon, MA Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology University of Arizona *********************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU Fri Feb 28 20:48:38 2014 From: linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU (Bryan James Gordon) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2014 13:48:38 -0700 Subject: Sad news In-Reply-To: <648EA97C82564942966A950E5E5BAD79957CEAD9@SDSU-EX03.jacks.local> Message-ID: This is truly heartbreaking news. Bob was surely the greatest respository of linguistic knowledge in our tiny little world, and was gregarious in sharing his knowledge with everybody - community members, baby linguists, interviewers, anybody who wanted to learn. It seems he did and wrote more work on Siouan languages than all the rest of us put together, and to top it off he was a kind and beautiful human being with a delightful wit. I am shocked that I won't be getting to see him again this year, but glad for all the times I did see him and catch little pieces of his wisdom. My deepest condolences to Bob's loved ones, of whom he has a great many. Washkáⁿiga ho! Bryan 2014-02-26 19:34 GMT-07:00 Danker, Kathleen : > I am so sorry to hear this. Bob was such a kind man and brilliant > scholar. > > Kathleen Danker > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of > *David Kaufman > *Sent:* Monday, February 24, 2014 2:01 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Sad news > > > > Dear all, > > It is with much sadness that I let you know that Dr. Robert Rankin has > passed away. I don't have any further details at this time, but I can pass > on more info once I know more. The Kaw Nation was just contacted within > the last couple of hours about his passing. > > I am extremely grateful that I got to visit Bob a couple of weeks ago. > > Sincerely, > > Dave > > David Kaufman > > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > -- *********************************************************** Bryan James Gordon, MA Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology University of Arizona *********************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.rood at COLORADO.EDU Fri Feb 28 22:24:35 2014 From: david.rood at COLORADO.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2014 15:24:35 -0700 Subject: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dave, while you're at this, keep an eye open for the following. Several people have noted (not sure whether published or not) that Lakota complements to verbs that require same-subject for both verbs (e.g. 'try') do not allow affixes on the first verb, while those which permit a change of subject (like 'want') do require that both verbs be marked. It seems like a really logical pattern, so I expect you'll find it true in Kaw as well. Best, David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Fri, 28 Feb 2014, David Kaufman wrote: > Sky, thanks for this! I think I'm going to go through and compile a list > of attested Kaw serial verbs and how they're conjugated. Bryan seems to > think that there could be a sub-category of serial verbs where the first > verb is not conjugated though the second one is. Not sure how far I can > get with this, but I may try and present this, at least the Kaw case, as a > paper at the SCLC in May. > > Dave > > David Kaufman > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > > On Fri, Feb 28, 2014 at 12:18 PM, Campbell, Sky wrote: > >> Dave, >> >> >> >> Not sure if you are still into this but I found this today. William >> Hamilton and Samuel Irvin have on page 33 of their *Elementary Book of >> the Ioway Language*: >> >> >> >> ha-u-ha-mvn-yæ – I always do so >> >> >> >> This would be: >> >> >> >> Ha’ų hamanyi >> >> >> >> ha’ų – I do >> >> >> >> hamanyi – I walk/I always >> >> >> >> Here you have both conjugated in the first person using the prefix “ha-“. >> There are other examples out there but I need to find them. >> >> >> >> Hope this helps. >> >> >> >> *Sky Campbell, B. A.* >> >> Language Director >> >> Otoe-Missouria Tribe >> >> 580-723-4466 ext. 111 >> >> sky at omtribe.org >> >> >> >> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of >> *David Kaufman >> >> *Sent:* Friday, February 21, 2014 12:54 PM >> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >> >> *Subject:* Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives >> >> >> >> Thanks Rory and Justin for the feedback. >> >> >> >> On another note, I've also been wondering about how serial verbs are >> handled in Siouan in general. In the Kaw data, when two verbs come >> together, the second verb always conjugates for person while the first >> looks like it can either conjugate to match the second verb or it can stay >> in the third person (neutral) form. I seem to recall that in Biloxi, >> serial verbs *always* match, first and second verbs having the same person >> conjugation. What do other Siouan languages do in regards to this? Are >> there any hard and fast rules about this? >> >> >> >> Thanks again! >> >> >> >> Dave >> >> >> David Kaufman >> >> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >> >> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >> >> >> >> On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 5:15 PM, Rory Larson wrote: >> >> Thanks for the analysis, Justin. That makes much better sense than what I >> had suggested. Very interesting that the Kaw (a)be particle, which should >> be either cognate or closely related to the Omaha (a)bi particle, can >> ablaut. I wasn’t aware of that; it’s good to know. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Rory >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of >> *Mcbride, Justin >> *Sent:* Thursday, February 20, 2014 3:00 PM >> *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU >> *Subject:* Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives >> >> >> >> For what it's worth, I believe that what appears to be a second token of >> aba in the example, aba-daN is actually a different type altogether. In >> this case, I think it's a case of the verb e(e), 'to say', plus the -(a)be >> completive aspect marker plus the conjunction -(a)daN, 'and' >> [e(e)-(a)be-(a)daN > aba-daN]. If so, then, that one really is just 's/he >> said and,' and the first one is actually the subject marker. But that's not >> to say that there aren't other examples of the quotative use of subject >> markers in Ks, even within the same text. Here's an example of quotative >> akHa: >> >> >> >> iccikkitaNga akha oo aNs^i waali miNkHe akHa. >> >> The Old Man said, "Oh, I'm getting fat." >> >> >> >> This case is much clearer to my way of thinking because there are two >> verbal auxiliaries marking the same state (in this case, at rest) >> back-to-back, one of which refers to 1st person (miNkHe, part of the >> quotation), and one 3rd person (akHa, marks quotation). It's curious to >> note that in the audio for this, the speaker laughs after miNkHe and then >> almost catches her breath before saying akHa, which would indicate to me >> that she felt it was essential for concluding the sentence. It's >> interesting to me in that it seems that the entire quoted clause is acting >> almost like a verb following the canonical pattern (subject) SUBJ (verb) >> AUX, where SUBJ and AUX match shape in the continuative aspect, as in >> s^idoz^iNga akHa ghaage akHa, 'the boy is crying.' >> >> >> >> -jtm >> >> >> >> On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 1:50 PM, Rory Larson wrote: >> >> Hi Dave, >> >> >> >> In Omaha and Ponca, the corresponding article is amá, where you have abá. >> As with Kaw, it tends to imply ‘moving/absent’. But we also have another >> particle, apparently pronounced the same way, coming at the end of the >> sentence, that implies that the foregoing is hearsay rather than solid >> fact. It can stand by itself, or it can be coupled with the ‘allegedly’ >> particle bi to make the common ending for 3rd person hearsay action, >> biama. >> >> >> >> I notice the accent changes to the first syllable in the second case of >> your example. I wonder if that could be underlyingly a-aba in that case? >> The first would be the ablauted version of ‘he said it’, followed by either >> the Old Man’s article abá or a ‘hearsay’ particle as in OP. One problem >> with that would be that the ‘hearsay’ amá in OP shouldn’t cause a preceding >> verb to ablaut. >> >> >> >> My $0.02. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Rory >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of >> *David Kaufman >> *Sent:* Thursday, February 20, 2014 1:30 PM >> *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU >> *Subject:* Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives >> >> >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> I have a question re: a curious structure in Kaw, and whether anything >> like it occurs in other Dhegihan or even non-Dhegihan Siouan languages. >> The structure involves the articles akhá and abá, used for subjects in Kaw >> and usually translated 'the', the first being roughly for >> 'standing/sitting' and the other for 'moving/absent'. However, in Kaw, >> these subject articles also somehow seem to have become used as quotatives, >> or 's/he said.' Here is an example sentence with gloss: >> >> >> >> *Icíkitanga abá, “Anyáxtaga-édan,” ába-dan, nanstábe.* >> >> Old.Man said bite.me-then said-then kicked.him >> >> The Old Man said, “Then bite me,” and he kicked him. >> >> >> >> So abá, which is normally used for 'moving' subjects and is usually >> translated 'the', is now being used for 's/he said.' >> >> >> >> Any thoughts on this, esp. from other Dhegihan perspectives, or other >> Siouan languages that might have some similar usage? >> >> >> >> Thanks! >> >> >> >> >> David Kaufman >> >> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >> >> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >> >> >> >> >> >> ­­ >> > From sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Fri Feb 28 23:27:24 2014 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM (Sky Campbell) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2014 17:27:24 -0600 Subject: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Compiling a list of these is on my "to do" list. I've seen them before but never knew what to call them. I know of examples like "bring" which roughly translates to "have - come" so I decided to see if I could find it. While looking in Dorsey's material, I found a serial verb composed of three verbs and each of them conjugated. Here it is as Dorsey documented it: a-nyi-hi-re - to have gone out of sight with any thing; to have taken any thing away Here are the three verbs: anyi - have hi - arrive there re - go His conjugation for the 2nd person singular came out as (respelled in our system): asdį rahi sre asdį - you have rahi - you arrive there sre - you go He has a load of these that would need to be gone over to see if all of them are conjugated this way but this is interesting nonetheless. I haven't come across a succession of three verbs like this before until now. A quick scan shows more "three verb" serial verbs. "Command raising" verbs was mentioned. What exactly are those? I'm also curious how (if any) valence-reducing affixes come into play here. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of David Kaufman Sent: Friday, February 28, 2014 12:32 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives Sky, thanks for this! I think I'm going to go through and compile a list of attested Kaw serial verbs and how they're conjugated. Bryan seems to think that there could be a sub-category of serial verbs where the first verb is not conjugated though the second one is. Not sure how far I can get with this, but I may try and present this, at least the Kaw case, as a paper at the SCLC in May. Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program On Fri, Feb 28, 2014 at 12:18 PM, Campbell, Sky wrote: Dave, Not sure if you are still into this but I found this today. William Hamilton and Samuel Irvin have on page 33 of their Elementary Book of the Ioway Language: ha-u-ha-mvn-yæ – I always do so This would be: Ha’ų hamanyi ha’ų – I do hamanyi – I walk/I always Here you have both conjugated in the first person using the prefix “ha-“. There are other examples out there but I need to find them. Hope this helps. Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of David Kaufman Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 12:54 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives Thanks Rory and Justin for the feedback. On another note, I've also been wondering about how serial verbs are handled in Siouan in general. In the Kaw data, when two verbs come together, the second verb always conjugates for person while the first looks like it can either conjugate to match the second verb or it can stay in the third person (neutral) form. I seem to recall that in Biloxi, serial verbs *always* match, first and second verbs having the same person conjugation. What do other Siouan languages do in regards to this? Are there any hard and fast rules about this? Thanks again! Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 5:15 PM, Rory Larson wrote: Thanks for the analysis, Justin. That makes much better sense than what I had suggested. Very interesting that the Kaw (a)be particle, which should be either cognate or closely related to the Omaha (a)bi particle, can ablaut. I wasn’t aware of that; it’s good to know. Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mcbride, Justin Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 3:00 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives For what it's worth, I believe that what appears to be a second token of aba in the example, aba-daN is actually a different type altogether. In this case, I think it's a case of the verb e(e), 'to say', plus the -(a)be completive aspect marker plus the conjunction -(a)daN, 'and' [e(e)-(a)be-(a)daN > aba-daN]. If so, then, that one really is just 's/he said and,' and the first one is actually the subject marker. But that's not to say that there aren't other examples of the quotative use of subject markers in Ks, even within the same text. Here's an example of quotative akHa: iccikkitaNga akha oo aNs^i waali miNkHe akHa. The Old Man said, "Oh, I'm getting fat." This case is much clearer to my way of thinking because there are two verbal auxiliaries marking the same state (in this case, at rest) back-to-back, one of which refers to 1st person (miNkHe, part of the quotation), and one 3rd person (akHa, marks quotation). It's curious to note that in the audio for this, the speaker laughs after miNkHe and then almost catches her breath before saying akHa, which would indicate to me that she felt it was essential for concluding the sentence. It's interesting to me in that it seems that the entire quoted clause is acting almost like a verb following the canonical pattern (subject) SUBJ (verb) AUX, where SUBJ and AUX match shape in the continuative aspect, as in s^idoz^iNga akHa ghaage akHa, 'the boy is crying.' -jtm On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 1:50 PM, Rory Larson wrote: Hi Dave, In Omaha and Ponca, the corresponding article is amá, where you have abá. As with Kaw, it tends to imply ‘moving/absent’. But we also have another particle, apparently pronounced the same way, coming at the end of the sentence, that implies that the foregoing is hearsay rather than solid fact. It can stand by itself, or it can be coupled with the ‘allegedly’ particle bi to make the common ending for 3rd person hearsay action, biama. I notice the accent changes to the first syllable in the second case of your example. I wonder if that could be underlyingly a-aba in that case? The first would be the ablauted version of ‘he said it’, followed by either the Old Man’s article abá or a ‘hearsay’ particle as in OP. One problem with that would be that the ‘hearsay’ amá in OP shouldn’t cause a preceding verb to ablaut. My $0.02. Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of David Kaufman Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 1:30 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives Hi all, I have a question re: a curious structure in Kaw, and whether anything like it occurs in other Dhegihan or even non-Dhegihan Siouan languages. The structure involves the articles akhá and abá, used for subjects in Kaw and usually translated 'the', the first being roughly for 'standing/sitting' and the other for 'moving/absent'. However, in Kaw, these subject articles also somehow seem to have become used as quotatives, or 's/he said.' Here is an example sentence with gloss: Icíkitanga abá, “Anyáxtaga-édan,” ába-dan, nanstábe. Old.Man said bite.me-then said-then kicked.him The Old Man said, “Then bite me,” and he kicked him. So abá, which is normally used for 'moving' subjects and is usually translated 'the', is now being used for 's/he said.' Any thoughts on this, esp. from other Dhegihan perspectives, or other Siouan languages that might have some similar usage? Thanks! David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program ­­ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stanleyl at LUTHER.EDU Sat Feb 1 14:23:13 2014 From: stanleyl at LUTHER.EDU (Lori Stanley) Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2014 08:23:13 -0600 Subject: MARK In-Reply-To: <648EA97C82564942966A950E5E5BAD79956F7D5F@SDSU-EX03.jacks.local> Message-ID: This is heartbreaking news. Mark, Donna, and family will certainly be in my thoughts and prayers. Lori On Wed, Jan 29, 2014 at 4:39 PM, Danker, Kathleen < Kathleen.Danker at sdstate.edu> wrote: > It's sad to hear that Mark and his family are going through such hard > times. My thoughts and prayers are with them. > > K.D. Danker > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of > *Jimm G. GoodTracks > *Sent:* Monday, January 27, 2014 3:44 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* MARK > > > > From: Vida Stabbler at Macy, NE: > > > > Hi Jimm, my Nephew Uthixide Mark's leukemia is back and fierce at that. > He's been on chemo and on leave from work. > > > > The leukemia has spread to spine, brain and bone marrow. Needless to say, > there is great sadness coming along. He is doing radiation and will start > chemo very soon. I sat with him and Donna at UNMC - Omaha yesterday. I will > share your thoughts with him....makes him smile to hear from family and > friends. > > > > It would be good for the list to acknowledge him and that we stand with > him in heart and prayer as he travels this difficult journey, that he has > already traveled. > > > > Jimm > -- Lori A. Stanley Professor of Anthropology Luther College 700 College Drive Decorah, Iowa 52101 563-387-1283 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kathleendshea at GMAIL.COM Fri Feb 14 04:24:29 2014 From: kathleendshea at GMAIL.COM (Kathleen D. Shea) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2014 20:24:29 -0800 Subject: MARK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm also very sorry to hear that Mark and his family are having such a hard time. My heart goes out to them, and I hope they know that we all care and are thinking about them. Mark has been fighting this battle for a long time and has always come out on top. Let's hope that's the case this time, too. I've always admired Mark's persistence, can-do attitude, and sense of humor in dealing with any obstacles in his way, and I'm sure that that is what has helped him to persevere and accomplish so much in the long run. With warm wishes and hope for the best, Kathy Shea Sent from my iPad > On Feb 1, 2014, at 6:23 AM, Lori Stanley wrote: > > This is heartbreaking news. Mark, Donna, and family will certainly be in my thoughts and prayers. > > Lori > > >> On Wed, Jan 29, 2014 at 4:39 PM, Danker, Kathleen wrote: >> It?s sad to hear that Mark and his family are going through such hard times. My thoughts and prayers are with them. >> >> K.D. Danker >> >> >> >> From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks >> Sent: Monday, January 27, 2014 3:44 PM >> To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >> Subject: MARK >> >> >> >> From: Vida Stabbler at Macy, NE: >> >> >> >> Hi Jimm, my Nephew Uthixide Mark's leukemia is back and fierce at that. He's been on chemo and on leave from work. >> >> >> >> The leukemia has spread to spine, brain and bone marrow. Needless to say, there is great sadness coming along. He is doing radiation and will start chemo very soon. I sat with him and Donna at UNMC - Omaha yesterday. I will share your thoughts with him....makes him smile to hear from family and friends. >> >> >> >> It would be good for the list to acknowledge him and that we stand with him in heart and prayer as he travels this difficult journey, that he has already traveled. >> >> >> >> Jimm >> > > > > -- > Lori A. Stanley > Professor of Anthropology > Luther College > 700 College Drive > Decorah, Iowa 52101 > 563-387-1283 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mawakuni-swetland2 at UNL.EDU Fri Feb 14 18:47:18 2014 From: mawakuni-swetland2 at UNL.EDU (Mark Awakuni-Swetland) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2014 18:47:18 +0000 Subject: Siouan list management team Message-ID: Hello all, This is Rory typing. I'm with Mark in his office right now, and we are working out how to manage the Siouan list going forward. Mark is somewhat visually impaired at present, and can't do the typing stuff, but otherwise is very much on the ball. Mark: Due to health issues (being practically blind), I want to make sure list functions are not impaired. List members (Rory Larson and Loren Frerichs) have agreed/volunteered/stepped forward to assist. Now we have a UNL-based management team. We will figure out a way to contact us. Rory: This morning I met with Loren Frerichs, a former Omaha student of ours and a computer guru with godly powers over the listserv. He made the two of us co-owners, along with Mark, over the Siouan list. So in the future, either of us should also work for setting up new accounts, etc. Mark: We will go through all pending requests and act on them. If we fail to find your request, or your students' request, give us a shout! Mark and Rory Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. Associate Professor Anthropology & Ethnic Studies Native American Studies University of Nebraska Oldfather Hall 841 Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 Office: 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 http://omahalanguage.unl.edu http://omahaponca.unl.edu "Tenixa uqpatha egoN", a biama winisi akHa. Lincoln Gem and Mineral Club, Inc. Secretary (2013, 2014) Post Office Box 5342 Lincoln, NE 68505-0342 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Fri Feb 14 19:27:38 2014 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm G. GoodTracks) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2014 13:27:38 -0600 Subject: Siouan list management team In-Reply-To: <6cc03dc192024fc0a69d57e42b2b90b8@BY2PR08MB240.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Pi dana ke. Everthing can always become better. Late IOM Elders (were one in saying): Itun Wakanda, irogre broge uxre ma?i h?e ke (First God, next everything will continue to follow). Mark, there are so many of us that are one with you in heart, mind and prayer. From: Mark Awakuni-Swetland Sent: Friday, February 14, 2014 12:47 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Siouan list management team Hello all, This is Rory typing. I?m with Mark in his office right now, and we are working out how to manage the Siouan list going forward. Mark is somewhat visually impaired at present, and can?t do the typing stuff, but otherwise is very much on the ball. Mark: Due to health issues (being practically blind), I want to make sure list functions are not impaired. List members (Rory Larson and Loren Frerichs) have agreed/volunteered/stepped forward to assist. Now we have a UNL-based management team. We will figure out a way to contact us. Rory: This morning I met with Loren Frerichs, a former Omaha student of ours and a computer guru with godly powers over the listserv. He made the two of us co-owners, along with Mark, over the Siouan list. So in the future, either of us should also work for setting up new accounts, etc. Mark: We will go through all pending requests and act on them. If we fail to find your request, or your students? request, give us a shout! Mark and Rory Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. Associate Professor Anthropology & Ethnic Studies Native American Studies University of Nebraska Oldfather Hall 841 Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 Office: 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 http://omahalanguage.unl.edu http://omahaponca.unl.edu ?Tenixa uqpatha egoN?, a biama winisi akHa. Lincoln Gem and Mineral Club, Inc. Secretary (2013, 2014) Post Office Box 5342 Lincoln, NE 68505-0342 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From CaRudin1 at WSC.EDU Fri Feb 14 19:24:15 2014 From: CaRudin1 at WSC.EDU (Catherine Rudin) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2014 13:24:15 -0600 Subject: Siouan list management team In-Reply-To: <6cc03dc192024fc0a69d57e42b2b90b8@BY2PR08MB240.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Thanks for making it work, guys! I'm happy to hear Mark is up to hanging out in the office, and shaking my head over how typical it is that he's thinking about helping the rest of us out instead of focusing on himself. Hang in there, Mark. Lots of love coming your way from the whole list, I'm sure. Catherine >>> Mark Awakuni-Swetland 2/14/2014 12:47 PM >>> Hello all, This is Rory typing. I?m with Mark in his office right now, and we are working out how to manage the Siouan list going forward. Mark is somewhat visually impaired at present, and can?t do the typing stuff, but otherwise is very much on the ball. Mark: Due to health issues (being practically blind), I want to make sure list functions are not impaired. List members (Rory Larson and Loren Frerichs) have agreed/volunteered/stepped forward to assist. Now we have a UNL-based management team. We will figure out a way to contact us. Rory: This morning I met with Loren Frerichs, a former Omaha student of ours and a computer guru with godly powers over the listserv. He made the two of us co-owners, along with Mark, over the Siouan list. So in the future, either of us should also work for setting up new accounts, etc. Mark: We will go through all pending requests and act on them. If we fail to find your request, or your students? request, give us a shout! Mark and Rory Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. Associate Professor Anthropology & Ethnic Studies Native American Studies University of Nebraska Oldfather Hall 841 Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 Office: 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 http://omahalanguage.unl.edu http://omahaponca.unl.edu ?Tenixa uqpatha egoN?, a biama winisi akHa. Lincoln Gem and Mineral Club, Inc. Secretary (2013, 2014) Post Office Box 5342 Lincoln, NE 68505-0342 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mary.marino at USASK.CA Fri Feb 14 19:35:19 2014 From: mary.marino at USASK.CA (Mary C Marino) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2014 13:35:19 -0600 Subject: Siouan list management team In-Reply-To: <52FE18FF0200008E000AA580@hermes.wsc.edu> Message-ID: Absolutely! Mary On 14/02/2014 1:24 PM, Catherine Rudin wrote: > Thanks for making it work, guys! > I'm happy to hear Mark is up to hanging out in the office, and shaking > my head over how typical it is that he's thinking about helping the > rest of us out instead of focusing on himself. Hang in there, Mark. > Lots of love coming your way from the whole list, I'm sure. > Catherine > > >>> Mark Awakuni-Swetland 2/14/2014 12:47 > PM >>> > > Hello all, > > This is Rory typing. I?m with Mark in his office right now, and we > are working out how to manage the Siouan list going forward. Mark is > somewhat visually impaired at present, and can?t do the typing stuff, > but otherwise is very much on the ball. > > Mark: Due to health issues (being practically blind), I want to make > sure list functions are not impaired. List members (Rory Larson and > Loren Frerichs) have agreed/volunteered/stepped forward to assist. > Now we have a UNL-based management team. We will figure out a way to > contact us. > > Rory: This morning I met with Loren Frerichs, a former Omaha student > of ours and a computer guru with godly powers over the listserv. He > made the two of us co-owners, along with Mark, over the Siouan list. > So in the future, either of us should also work for setting up new > accounts, etc. > > Mark: We will go through all pending requests and act on them. If we > fail to find your request, or your students? request, give us a shout! > > Mark and Rory > > Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. > > Associate Professor > > Anthropology & Ethnic Studies > > Native American Studies > > University of Nebraska > > Oldfather Hall 841 > > Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 > > Office: 402-472-3455 > > FAX: 402-472-9642 > > http://omahalanguage.unl.edu > > http://omahaponca.unl.edu > > ?Tenixa uqpatha egoN?, a biama winisi akHa. > > Lincoln Gem and Mineral Club, Inc. > > Secretary (2013, 2014) > > Post Office Box 5342 > > Lincoln, NE 68505-0342 > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Fri Feb 14 21:30:01 2014 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Greer, Jill) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2014 21:30:01 +0000 Subject: Siouan list management team In-Reply-To: <9B67988288D34C06B149A725EAD21208@JGAsusPC> Message-ID: Aloha! Prayers and best wishes, this time from an Ioway gentleman who asked me to tell you his prayers and good thoughts were coming your way. He didn?t know you personally, but had read your book on Omaha sacred traditions, and appreciated your respectful and humble attitude as the author. Your careful scholarship is meaningful to so many people. Ida manyi ho, Wakhanda, ?(Please) Be here among us, God! ? as the late Rev. Arthur Lightfoot so beautifully sang the verse of a NAC song in Jiwere-Baxoje. Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks Sent: Friday, February 14, 2014 1:28 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Siouan list management team Pi dana ke. Everthing can always become better. Late IOM Elders (were one in saying): Itun Wakanda, irogre broge uxre ma?i h?e ke (First God, next everything will continue to follow). Mark, there are so many of us that are one with you in heart, mind and prayer. From: Mark Awakuni-Swetland Sent: Friday, February 14, 2014 12:47 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Siouan list management team Hello all, This is Rory typing. I?m with Mark in his office right now, and we are working out how to manage the Siouan list going forward. Mark is somewhat visually impaired at present, and can?t do the typing stuff, but otherwise is very much on the ball. Mark: Due to health issues (being practically blind), I want to make sure list functions are not impaired. List members (Rory Larson and Loren Frerichs) have agreed/volunteered/stepped forward to assist. Now we have a UNL-based management team. We will figure out a way to contact us. Rory: This morning I met with Loren Frerichs, a former Omaha student of ours and a computer guru with godly powers over the listserv. He made the two of us co-owners, along with Mark, over the Siouan list. So in the future, either of us should also work for setting up new accounts, etc. Mark: We will go through all pending requests and act on them. If we fail to find your request, or your students? request, give us a shout! Mark and Rory Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D. Associate Professor Anthropology & Ethnic Studies Native American Studies University of Nebraska Oldfather Hall 841 Lincoln, NE 68588-0368 Office: 402-472-3455 FAX: 402-472-9642 http://omahalanguage.unl.edu http://omahaponca.unl.edu ?Tenixa uqpatha egoN?, a biama winisi akHa. Lincoln Gem and Mineral Club, Inc. Secretary (2013, 2014) Post Office Box 5342 Lincoln, NE 68505-0342 This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Thu Feb 20 20:42:16 2014 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2014 14:42:16 -0600 Subject: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives In-Reply-To: <26e9ae016dc2417aae13d26d9148f907@DM2PR08MB525.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Hi Rory, Thanks for your two cents. I think that that second ?ba is the actual verb e 'say' with the non-continuative marker -be, which is then ablauted before dan 'then'. So that leaves just the first ab? that's really in question as to its supposed dual usage of article and quotative. But examples of this dual usage abound in the Kaw texts with both articles akh? and ab?. Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 1:50 PM, Rory Larson wrote: > Hi Dave, > > > > In Omaha and Ponca, the corresponding article is am?, where you have ab?. > As with Kaw, it tends to imply 'moving/absent'. But we also have another > particle, apparently pronounced the same way, coming at the end of the > sentence, that implies that the foregoing is hearsay rather than solid > fact. It can stand by itself, or it can be coupled with the 'allegedly' > particle bi to make the common ending for 3rd person hearsay action, > biama. > > > > I notice the accent changes to the first syllable in the second case of > your example. I wonder if that could be underlyingly a-aba in that case? > The first would be the ablauted version of 'he said it', followed by either > the Old Man's article ab? or a 'hearsay' particle as in OP. One problem > with that would be that the 'hearsay' am? in OP shouldn't cause a preceding > verb to ablaut. > > > > My $0.02. > > > > Best, > > Rory > > > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of > *David Kaufman > *Sent:* Thursday, February 20, 2014 1:30 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU > *Subject:* Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives > > > > Hi all, > > > > I have a question re: a curious structure in Kaw, and whether anything > like it occurs in other Dhegihan or even non-Dhegihan Siouan languages. > The structure involves the articles akh? and ab?, used for subjects in Kaw > and usually translated 'the', the first being roughly for > 'standing/sitting' and the other for 'moving/absent'. However, in Kaw, > these subject articles also somehow seem to have become used as quotatives, > or 's/he said.' Here is an example sentence with gloss: > > > > *Ic?kitanga ab?, "Any?xtaga-?dan," ?ba-dan, nanst?be.* > > Old.Man said bite.me-then said-then kicked.him > > The Old Man said, "Then bite me," and he kicked him. > > > > So ab?, which is normally used for 'moving' subjects and is usually > translated 'the', is now being used for 's/he said.' > > > > Any thoughts on this, esp. from other Dhegihan perspectives, or other > Siouan languages that might have some similar usage? > > > > Thanks! > > > > > David Kaufman > > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Thu Feb 20 19:50:20 2014 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2014 19:50:20 +0000 Subject: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Dave, In Omaha and Ponca, the corresponding article is am?, where you have ab?. As with Kaw, it tends to imply 'moving/absent'. But we also have another particle, apparently pronounced the same way, coming at the end of the sentence, that implies that the foregoing is hearsay rather than solid fact. It can stand by itself, or it can be coupled with the 'allegedly' particle bi to make the common ending for 3rd person hearsay action, biama. I notice the accent changes to the first syllable in the second case of your example. I wonder if that could be underlyingly a-aba in that case? The first would be the ablauted version of 'he said it', followed by either the Old Man's article ab? or a 'hearsay' particle as in OP. One problem with that would be that the 'hearsay' am? in OP shouldn't cause a preceding verb to ablaut. My $0.02. Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of David Kaufman Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 1:30 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives Hi all, I have a question re: a curious structure in Kaw, and whether anything like it occurs in other Dhegihan or even non-Dhegihan Siouan languages. The structure involves the articles akh? and ab?, used for subjects in Kaw and usually translated 'the', the first being roughly for 'standing/sitting' and the other for 'moving/absent'. However, in Kaw, these subject articles also somehow seem to have become used as quotatives, or 's/he said.' Here is an example sentence with gloss: Ic?kitanga ab?, "Any?xtaga-?dan," ?ba-dan, nanst?be. Old.Man said bite.me-then said-then kicked.him The Old Man said, "Then bite me," and he kicked him. So ab?, which is normally used for 'moving' subjects and is usually translated 'the', is now being used for 's/he said.' Any thoughts on this, esp. from other Dhegihan perspectives, or other Siouan languages that might have some similar usage? Thanks! David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Thu Feb 20 19:29:58 2014 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2014 13:29:58 -0600 Subject: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives Message-ID: Hi all, I have a question re: a curious structure in Kaw, and whether anything like it occurs in other Dhegihan or even non-Dhegihan Siouan languages. The structure involves the articles akh? and ab?, used for subjects in Kaw and usually translated 'the', the first being roughly for 'standing/sitting' and the other for 'moving/absent'. However, in Kaw, these subject articles also somehow seem to have become used as quotatives, or 's/he said.' Here is an example sentence with gloss: *Ic?kitanga ab?, "Any?xtaga-?dan," ?ba-dan, nanst?be.* Old.Man said bite.me-then said-then kicked.him The Old Man said, "Then bite me," and he kicked him. So ab?, which is normally used for 'moving' subjects and is usually translated 'the', is now being used for 's/he said.' Any thoughts on this, esp. from other Dhegihan perspectives, or other Siouan languages that might have some similar usage? Thanks! David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU Thu Feb 20 20:59:45 2014 From: jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU (Mcbride, Justin) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2014 14:59:45 -0600 Subject: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives In-Reply-To: <26e9ae016dc2417aae13d26d9148f907@DM2PR08MB525.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: For what it's worth, I believe that what appears to be a second token of aba in the example, aba-daN is actually a different type altogether. In this case, I think it's a case of the verb e(e), 'to say', plus the -(a)be completive aspect marker plus the conjunction -(a)daN, 'and' [e(e)-(a)be-(a)daN > aba-daN]. If so, then, that one really is just 's/he said and,' and the first one is actually the subject marker. But that's not to say that there aren't other examples of the quotative use of subject markers in Ks, even within the same text. Here's an example of quotative akHa: iccikkitaNga akha oo aNs^i waali miNkHe akHa. The Old Man said, "Oh, I'm getting fat." This case is much clearer to my way of thinking because there are two verbal auxiliaries marking the same state (in this case, at rest) back-to-back, one of which refers to 1st person (miNkHe, part of the quotation), and one 3rd person (akHa, marks quotation). It's curious to note that in the audio for this, the speaker laughs after miNkHe and then almost catches her breath before saying akHa, which would indicate to me that she felt it was essential for concluding the sentence. It's interesting to me in that it seems that the entire quoted clause is acting almost like a verb following the canonical pattern (subject) SUBJ (verb) AUX, where SUBJ and AUX match shape in the continuative aspect, as in s^idoz^iNga akHa ghaage akHa, 'the boy is crying.' -jtm On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 1:50 PM, Rory Larson wrote: > Hi Dave, > > > > In Omaha and Ponca, the corresponding article is am?, where you have ab?. > As with Kaw, it tends to imply 'moving/absent'. But we also have another > particle, apparently pronounced the same way, coming at the end of the > sentence, that implies that the foregoing is hearsay rather than solid > fact. It can stand by itself, or it can be coupled with the 'allegedly' > particle bi to make the common ending for 3rd person hearsay action, > biama. > > > > I notice the accent changes to the first syllable in the second case of > your example. I wonder if that could be underlyingly a-aba in that case? > The first would be the ablauted version of 'he said it', followed by either > the Old Man's article ab? or a 'hearsay' particle as in OP. One problem > with that would be that the 'hearsay' am? in OP shouldn't cause a preceding > verb to ablaut. > > > > My $0.02. > > > > Best, > > Rory > > > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of > *David Kaufman > *Sent:* Thursday, February 20, 2014 1:30 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU > *Subject:* Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives > > > > Hi all, > > > > I have a question re: a curious structure in Kaw, and whether anything > like it occurs in other Dhegihan or even non-Dhegihan Siouan languages. > The structure involves the articles akh? and ab?, used for subjects in Kaw > and usually translated 'the', the first being roughly for > 'standing/sitting' and the other for 'moving/absent'. However, in Kaw, > these subject articles also somehow seem to have become used as quotatives, > or 's/he said.' Here is an example sentence with gloss: > > > > *Ic?kitanga ab?, "Any?xtaga-?dan," ?ba-dan, nanst?be.* > > Old.Man said bite.me-then said-then kicked.him > > The Old Man said, "Then bite me," and he kicked him. > > > > So ab?, which is normally used for 'moving' subjects and is usually > translated 'the', is now being used for 's/he said.' > > > > Any thoughts on this, esp. from other Dhegihan perspectives, or other > Siouan languages that might have some similar usage? > > > > Thanks! > > > > > David Kaufman > > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Thu Feb 20 22:15:46 2014 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2014 16:15:46 -0600 Subject: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Justin, The mystery may perhaps be solved here. I looked at Quintero's Osage Dictionary and she has aakxa 'they say, they were saying' as a "postverbal singular or plural marker of reported information deriving from person(s) who is/are present and not moving" < ee 'say' + akxa 'CONT' (p. 3), and she has aapa as 'they say, are saying' indicating that "information in the sentence is or was reported by another or others" < ee 'say' + apa 'CONT' (p. 4). If this same is the case in Kaw, then it appears we may be dealing with two homographs as written, but would actually vary by length: aab? (ee + ab?) 'said (moving)' and aakh? (ee + akh?) 'said (stationary)'. Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 2:59 PM, Mcbride, Justin < jtmcbri at ostatemail.okstate.edu> wrote: > For what it's worth, I believe that what appears to be a second token of > aba in the example, aba-daN is actually a different type altogether. In > this case, I think it's a case of the verb e(e), 'to say', plus the -(a)be > completive aspect marker plus the conjunction -(a)daN, 'and' > [e(e)-(a)be-(a)daN > aba-daN]. If so, then, that one really is just 's/he > said and,' and the first one is actually the subject marker. But that's not > to say that there aren't other examples of the quotative use of subject > markers in Ks, even within the same text. Here's an example of quotative > akHa: > > iccikkitaNga akha oo aNs^i waali miNkHe akHa. > The Old Man said, "Oh, I'm getting fat." > > This case is much clearer to my way of thinking because there are two > verbal auxiliaries marking the same state (in this case, at rest) > back-to-back, one of which refers to 1st person (miNkHe, part of the > quotation), and one 3rd person (akHa, marks quotation). It's curious to > note that in the audio for this, the speaker laughs after miNkHe and then > almost catches her breath before saying akHa, which would indicate to me > that she felt it was essential for concluding the sentence. It's > interesting to me in that it seems that the entire quoted clause is acting > almost like a verb following the canonical pattern (subject) SUBJ (verb) > AUX, where SUBJ and AUX match shape in the continuative aspect, as in > s^idoz^iNga akHa ghaage akHa, 'the boy is crying.' > > -jtm > > > On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 1:50 PM, Rory Larson wrote: > >> Hi Dave, >> >> >> >> In Omaha and Ponca, the corresponding article is am?, where you have >> ab?. As with Kaw, it tends to imply 'moving/absent'. But we also have >> another particle, apparently pronounced the same way, coming at the end of >> the sentence, that implies that the foregoing is hearsay rather than solid >> fact. It can stand by itself, or it can be coupled with the 'allegedly' >> particle bi to make the common ending for 3rd person hearsay action, >> biama. >> >> >> >> I notice the accent changes to the first syllable in the second case of >> your example. I wonder if that could be underlyingly a-aba in that case? >> The first would be the ablauted version of 'he said it', followed by either >> the Old Man's article ab? or a 'hearsay' particle as in OP. One problem >> with that would be that the 'hearsay' am? in OP shouldn't cause a preceding >> verb to ablaut. >> >> >> >> My $0.02. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Rory >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf >> Of *David Kaufman >> *Sent:* Thursday, February 20, 2014 1:30 PM >> *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU >> *Subject:* Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives >> >> >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> I have a question re: a curious structure in Kaw, and whether anything >> like it occurs in other Dhegihan or even non-Dhegihan Siouan languages. >> The structure involves the articles akh? and ab?, used for subjects in Kaw >> and usually translated 'the', the first being roughly for >> 'standing/sitting' and the other for 'moving/absent'. However, in Kaw, >> these subject articles also somehow seem to have become used as quotatives, >> or 's/he said.' Here is an example sentence with gloss: >> >> >> >> *Ic?kitanga ab?, "Any?xtaga-?dan," ?ba-dan, nanst?be.* >> >> Old.Man said bite.me-then said-then kicked.him >> >> The Old Man said, "Then bite me," and he kicked him. >> >> >> >> So ab?, which is normally used for 'moving' subjects and is usually >> translated 'the', is now being used for 's/he said.' >> >> >> >> Any thoughts on this, esp. from other Dhegihan perspectives, or other >> Siouan languages that might have some similar usage? >> >> >> >> Thanks! >> >> >> >> >> David Kaufman >> >> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >> >> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU Thu Feb 20 22:31:25 2014 From: jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU (Mcbride, Justin) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2014 16:31:25 -0600 Subject: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: That's not a very satisfying solution, though, because no other e-final verbs in Ks undergo ablaut with aba or akHa. At least none that I can think of. Maybe there are in Os; I'm not sure. I would suspect that ol' Occam would just say that akHa and aba in Os-Ks also have a quotative function--in addition to their hundreds of other functions! On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 4:15 PM, David Kaufman wrote: > Hi Justin, > > The mystery may perhaps be solved here. I looked at Quintero's Osage > Dictionary and she has aakxa 'they say, they were saying' as a "postverbal > singular or plural marker of reported information deriving from person(s) > who is/are present and not moving" < ee 'say' + akxa 'CONT' (p. 3), and she > has aapa as 'they say, are saying' indicating that "information in the > sentence is or was reported by another or others" < ee 'say' + apa 'CONT' > (p. 4). > > If this same is the case in Kaw, then it appears we may be dealing with > two homographs as written, but would actually vary by length: aab? (ee + > ab?) 'said (moving)' and aakh? (ee + akh?) 'said (stationary)'. > > Dave > > David Kaufman > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > > On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 2:59 PM, Mcbride, Justin < > jtmcbri at ostatemail.okstate.edu> wrote: > >> For what it's worth, I believe that what appears to be a second token of >> aba in the example, aba-daN is actually a different type altogether. In >> this case, I think it's a case of the verb e(e), 'to say', plus the -(a)be >> completive aspect marker plus the conjunction -(a)daN, 'and' >> [e(e)-(a)be-(a)daN > aba-daN]. If so, then, that one really is just 's/he >> said and,' and the first one is actually the subject marker. But that's not >> to say that there aren't other examples of the quotative use of subject >> markers in Ks, even within the same text. Here's an example of quotative >> akHa: >> >> iccikkitaNga akha oo aNs^i waali miNkHe akHa. >> The Old Man said, "Oh, I'm getting fat." >> >> This case is much clearer to my way of thinking because there are two >> verbal auxiliaries marking the same state (in this case, at rest) >> back-to-back, one of which refers to 1st person (miNkHe, part of the >> quotation), and one 3rd person (akHa, marks quotation). It's curious to >> note that in the audio for this, the speaker laughs after miNkHe and then >> almost catches her breath before saying akHa, which would indicate to me >> that she felt it was essential for concluding the sentence. It's >> interesting to me in that it seems that the entire quoted clause is acting >> almost like a verb following the canonical pattern (subject) SUBJ (verb) >> AUX, where SUBJ and AUX match shape in the continuative aspect, as in >> s^idoz^iNga akHa ghaage akHa, 'the boy is crying.' >> >> -jtm >> >> >> On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 1:50 PM, Rory Larson wrote: >> >>> Hi Dave, >>> >>> >>> >>> In Omaha and Ponca, the corresponding article is am?, where you have >>> ab?. As with Kaw, it tends to imply 'moving/absent'. But we also have >>> another particle, apparently pronounced the same way, coming at the end of >>> the sentence, that implies that the foregoing is hearsay rather than solid >>> fact. It can stand by itself, or it can be coupled with the 'allegedly' >>> particle bi to make the common ending for 3rd person hearsay action, >>> biama. >>> >>> >>> >>> I notice the accent changes to the first syllable in the second case of >>> your example. I wonder if that could be underlyingly a-aba in that case? >>> The first would be the ablauted version of 'he said it', followed by either >>> the Old Man's article ab? or a 'hearsay' particle as in OP. One problem >>> with that would be that the 'hearsay' am? in OP shouldn't cause a preceding >>> verb to ablaut. >>> >>> >>> >>> My $0.02. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Rory >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf >>> Of *David Kaufman >>> *Sent:* Thursday, February 20, 2014 1:30 PM >>> *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU >>> *Subject:* Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> >>> >>> I have a question re: a curious structure in Kaw, and whether anything >>> like it occurs in other Dhegihan or even non-Dhegihan Siouan languages. >>> The structure involves the articles akh? and ab?, used for subjects in Kaw >>> and usually translated 'the', the first being roughly for >>> 'standing/sitting' and the other for 'moving/absent'. However, in Kaw, >>> these subject articles also somehow seem to have become used as quotatives, >>> or 's/he said.' Here is an example sentence with gloss: >>> >>> >>> >>> *Ic?kitanga ab?, "Any?xtaga-?dan," ?ba-dan, nanst?be.* >>> >>> Old.Man said bite.me-then said-then kicked.him >>> >>> The Old Man said, "Then bite me," and he kicked him. >>> >>> >>> >>> So ab?, which is normally used for 'moving' subjects and is usually >>> translated 'the', is now being used for 's/he said.' >>> >>> >>> >>> Any thoughts on this, esp. from other Dhegihan perspectives, or other >>> Siouan languages that might have some similar usage? >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> David Kaufman >>> >>> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >>> >>> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >>> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Thu Feb 20 23:10:17 2014 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2014 23:10:17 +0000 Subject: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dave, Sorry, I misunderstood your original question. But if we are talking about the first ab?, then is that actually quotative as such? I see that it's glossed as 'said', but reading it in Dhegihan, I would understand that as a normal 'the' in reference to the Old Man, with a projective colon after it. My proposed punctuation of that sentence would be: Ic?kitanga ab?: "Any?xtaga-?dan" ?-ba-dan, nanst?be. I like Justin's suggestion of looking at the quotation as substituting for what would normally be a verb. Thus: s^idoz^iNga akHa ghaage akHa, 'the boy is crying.' or ((s^idoz^iNga)-akHa ghaage)-akHa, 'the boy is crying.' ((boy)-akHa crying)-akHa. with the article wrapping up everything that preceeds it into a noun or stative declaration. For the quotative situation: iccikkitaNga akha: "oo aNs^i waali miNkHe" akHa. The Old Man [said]: "Oh, I'm getting fat." or ((iccikkitaNga)-akha "oo aNs^i waali miNkHe")-akHa. The Old Man [said], "Oh, I'm getting fat." When we have NOUN-ARTICLE WHATSIT-ARTICLE sentences, it seems to me that we are just adding attributes or qualifiers onto the original noun. The attribute may be a verb that tells what they did, or it may be the words they spoke, but I don't think that would change the meaning of the articles. It should just be sentence structure, pausing, and understanding of the content that would used by the listener to parse the meaning. Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of David Kaufman Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 2:42 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives Hi Rory, Thanks for your two cents. I think that that second ?ba is the actual verb e 'say' with the non-continuative marker -be, which is then ablauted before dan 'then'. So that leaves just the first ab? that's really in question as to its supposed dual usage of article and quotative. But examples of this dual usage abound in the Kaw texts with both articles akh? and ab?. Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 1:50 PM, Rory Larson > wrote: Hi Dave, In Omaha and Ponca, the corresponding article is am?, where you have ab?. As with Kaw, it tends to imply 'moving/absent'. But we also have another particle, apparently pronounced the same way, coming at the end of the sentence, that implies that the foregoing is hearsay rather than solid fact. It can stand by itself, or it can be coupled with the 'allegedly' particle bi to make the common ending for 3rd person hearsay action, biama. I notice the accent changes to the first syllable in the second case of your example. I wonder if that could be underlyingly a-aba in that case? The first would be the ablauted version of 'he said it', followed by either the Old Man's article ab? or a 'hearsay' particle as in OP. One problem with that would be that the 'hearsay' am? in OP shouldn't cause a preceding verb to ablaut. My $0.02. Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of David Kaufman Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 1:30 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives Hi all, I have a question re: a curious structure in Kaw, and whether anything like it occurs in other Dhegihan or even non-Dhegihan Siouan languages. The structure involves the articles akh? and ab?, used for subjects in Kaw and usually translated 'the', the first being roughly for 'standing/sitting' and the other for 'moving/absent'. However, in Kaw, these subject articles also somehow seem to have become used as quotatives, or 's/he said.' Here is an example sentence with gloss: Ic?kitanga ab?, "Any?xtaga-?dan," ?ba-dan, nanst?be. Old.Man said bite.me-then said-then kicked.him The Old Man said, "Then bite me," and he kicked him. So ab?, which is normally used for 'moving' subjects and is usually translated 'the', is now being used for 's/he said.' Any thoughts on this, esp. from other Dhegihan perspectives, or other Siouan languages that might have some similar usage? Thanks! David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Thu Feb 20 23:15:58 2014 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2014 23:15:58 +0000 Subject: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks for the analysis, Justin. That makes much better sense than what I had suggested. Very interesting that the Kaw (a)be particle, which should be either cognate or closely related to the Omaha (a)bi particle, can ablaut. I wasn't aware of that; it's good to know. Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mcbride, Justin Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 3:00 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives For what it's worth, I believe that what appears to be a second token of aba in the example, aba-daN is actually a different type altogether. In this case, I think it's a case of the verb e(e), 'to say', plus the -(a)be completive aspect marker plus the conjunction -(a)daN, 'and' [e(e)-(a)be-(a)daN > aba-daN]. If so, then, that one really is just 's/he said and,' and the first one is actually the subject marker. But that's not to say that there aren't other examples of the quotative use of subject markers in Ks, even within the same text. Here's an example of quotative akHa: iccikkitaNga akha oo aNs^i waali miNkHe akHa. The Old Man said, "Oh, I'm getting fat." This case is much clearer to my way of thinking because there are two verbal auxiliaries marking the same state (in this case, at rest) back-to-back, one of which refers to 1st person (miNkHe, part of the quotation), and one 3rd person (akHa, marks quotation). It's curious to note that in the audio for this, the speaker laughs after miNkHe and then almost catches her breath before saying akHa, which would indicate to me that she felt it was essential for concluding the sentence. It's interesting to me in that it seems that the entire quoted clause is acting almost like a verb following the canonical pattern (subject) SUBJ (verb) AUX, where SUBJ and AUX match shape in the continuative aspect, as in s^idoz^iNga akHa ghaage akHa, 'the boy is crying.' -jtm On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 1:50 PM, Rory Larson > wrote: Hi Dave, In Omaha and Ponca, the corresponding article is am?, where you have ab?. As with Kaw, it tends to imply 'moving/absent'. But we also have another particle, apparently pronounced the same way, coming at the end of the sentence, that implies that the foregoing is hearsay rather than solid fact. It can stand by itself, or it can be coupled with the 'allegedly' particle bi to make the common ending for 3rd person hearsay action, biama. I notice the accent changes to the first syllable in the second case of your example. I wonder if that could be underlyingly a-aba in that case? The first would be the ablauted version of 'he said it', followed by either the Old Man's article ab? or a 'hearsay' particle as in OP. One problem with that would be that the 'hearsay' am? in OP shouldn't cause a preceding verb to ablaut. My $0.02. Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of David Kaufman Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 1:30 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives Hi all, I have a question re: a curious structure in Kaw, and whether anything like it occurs in other Dhegihan or even non-Dhegihan Siouan languages. The structure involves the articles akh? and ab?, used for subjects in Kaw and usually translated 'the', the first being roughly for 'standing/sitting' and the other for 'moving/absent'. However, in Kaw, these subject articles also somehow seem to have become used as quotatives, or 's/he said.' Here is an example sentence with gloss: Ic?kitanga ab?, "Any?xtaga-?dan," ?ba-dan, nanst?be. Old.Man said bite.me-then said-then kicked.him The Old Man said, "Then bite me," and he kicked him. So ab?, which is normally used for 'moving' subjects and is usually translated 'the', is now being used for 's/he said.' Any thoughts on this, esp. from other Dhegihan perspectives, or other Siouan languages that might have some similar usage? Thanks! David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Fri Feb 21 18:53:51 2014 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2014 12:53:51 -0600 Subject: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives In-Reply-To: <398dc2c9ad0847ef8fbe42c83c68867e@DM2PR08MB525.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Thanks Rory and Justin for the feedback. On another note, I've also been wondering about how serial verbs are handled in Siouan in general. In the Kaw data, when two verbs come together, the second verb always conjugates for person while the first looks like it can either conjugate to match the second verb or it can stay in the third person (neutral) form. I seem to recall that in Biloxi, serial verbs *always* match, first and second verbs having the same person conjugation. What do other Siouan languages do in regards to this? Are there any hard and fast rules about this? Thanks again! Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 5:15 PM, Rory Larson wrote: > Thanks for the analysis, Justin. That makes much better sense than what > I had suggested. Very interesting that the Kaw (a)be particle, which > should be either cognate or closely related to the Omaha (a)bi particle, > can ablaut. I wasn't aware of that; it's good to know. > > > > Best, > > Rory > > > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of > *Mcbride, Justin > *Sent:* Thursday, February 20, 2014 3:00 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU > *Subject:* Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives > > > > For what it's worth, I believe that what appears to be a second token of > aba in the example, aba-daN is actually a different type altogether. In > this case, I think it's a case of the verb e(e), 'to say', plus the -(a)be > completive aspect marker plus the conjunction -(a)daN, 'and' > [e(e)-(a)be-(a)daN > aba-daN]. If so, then, that one really is just 's/he > said and,' and the first one is actually the subject marker. But that's not > to say that there aren't other examples of the quotative use of subject > markers in Ks, even within the same text. Here's an example of quotative > akHa: > > > > iccikkitaNga akha oo aNs^i waali miNkHe akHa. > > The Old Man said, "Oh, I'm getting fat." > > > > This case is much clearer to my way of thinking because there are two > verbal auxiliaries marking the same state (in this case, at rest) > back-to-back, one of which refers to 1st person (miNkHe, part of the > quotation), and one 3rd person (akHa, marks quotation). It's curious to > note that in the audio for this, the speaker laughs after miNkHe and then > almost catches her breath before saying akHa, which would indicate to me > that she felt it was essential for concluding the sentence. It's > interesting to me in that it seems that the entire quoted clause is acting > almost like a verb following the canonical pattern (subject) SUBJ (verb) > AUX, where SUBJ and AUX match shape in the continuative aspect, as in > s^idoz^iNga akHa ghaage akHa, 'the boy is crying.' > > > > -jtm > > > > On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 1:50 PM, Rory Larson wrote: > > Hi Dave, > > > > In Omaha and Ponca, the corresponding article is am?, where you have ab?. > As with Kaw, it tends to imply 'moving/absent'. But we also have another > particle, apparently pronounced the same way, coming at the end of the > sentence, that implies that the foregoing is hearsay rather than solid > fact. It can stand by itself, or it can be coupled with the 'allegedly' > particle bi to make the common ending for 3rd person hearsay action, > biama. > > > > I notice the accent changes to the first syllable in the second case of > your example. I wonder if that could be underlyingly a-aba in that case? > The first would be the ablauted version of 'he said it', followed by either > the Old Man's article ab? or a 'hearsay' particle as in OP. One problem > with that would be that the 'hearsay' am? in OP shouldn't cause a preceding > verb to ablaut. > > > > My $0.02. > > > > Best, > > Rory > > > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of > *David Kaufman > *Sent:* Thursday, February 20, 2014 1:30 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU > *Subject:* Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives > > > > Hi all, > > > > I have a question re: a curious structure in Kaw, and whether anything > like it occurs in other Dhegihan or even non-Dhegihan Siouan languages. > The structure involves the articles akh? and ab?, used for subjects in Kaw > and usually translated 'the', the first being roughly for > 'standing/sitting' and the other for 'moving/absent'. However, in Kaw, > these subject articles also somehow seem to have become used as quotatives, > or 's/he said.' Here is an example sentence with gloss: > > > > *Ic?kitanga ab?, "Any?xtaga-?dan," ?ba-dan, nanst?be.* > > Old.Man said bite.me-then said-then kicked.him > > The Old Man said, "Then bite me," and he kicked him. > > > > So ab?, which is normally used for 'moving' subjects and is usually > translated 'the', is now being used for 's/he said.' > > > > Any thoughts on this, esp. from other Dhegihan perspectives, or other > Siouan languages that might have some similar usage? > > > > Thanks! > > > > > David Kaufman > > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Fri Feb 21 19:28:29 2014 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2014 19:28:29 +0000 Subject: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dave, What you describe for Kaw seems to be what my experience with Omaha has been. As I recall, elicited statements usually have the first verb in neutral form, but if you ask the speakers which way is better, giving both options, they generally prefer the one with both verbs conjugated. I think the latter is the way it normally appears in Dorsey (19th century). Of course, the real power of the old (?) system is that the first verb can conjugate for different subjects and objects than the second one, as in "I want you to give me the toy" = Toy-the me-you-give I-want. Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of David Kaufman Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 12:54 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives Thanks Rory and Justin for the feedback. On another note, I've also been wondering about how serial verbs are handled in Siouan in general. In the Kaw data, when two verbs come together, the second verb always conjugates for person while the first looks like it can either conjugate to match the second verb or it can stay in the third person (neutral) form. I seem to recall that in Biloxi, serial verbs *always* match, first and second verbs having the same person conjugation. What do other Siouan languages do in regards to this? Are there any hard and fast rules about this? Thanks again! Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 5:15 PM, Rory Larson > wrote: Thanks for the analysis, Justin. That makes much better sense than what I had suggested. Very interesting that the Kaw (a)be particle, which should be either cognate or closely related to the Omaha (a)bi particle, can ablaut. I wasn't aware of that; it's good to know. Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mcbride, Justin Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 3:00 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives For what it's worth, I believe that what appears to be a second token of aba in the example, aba-daN is actually a different type altogether. In this case, I think it's a case of the verb e(e), 'to say', plus the -(a)be completive aspect marker plus the conjunction -(a)daN, 'and' [e(e)-(a)be-(a)daN > aba-daN]. If so, then, that one really is just 's/he said and,' and the first one is actually the subject marker. But that's not to say that there aren't other examples of the quotative use of subject markers in Ks, even within the same text. Here's an example of quotative akHa: iccikkitaNga akha oo aNs^i waali miNkHe akHa. The Old Man said, "Oh, I'm getting fat." This case is much clearer to my way of thinking because there are two verbal auxiliaries marking the same state (in this case, at rest) back-to-back, one of which refers to 1st person (miNkHe, part of the quotation), and one 3rd person (akHa, marks quotation). It's curious to note that in the audio for this, the speaker laughs after miNkHe and then almost catches her breath before saying akHa, which would indicate to me that she felt it was essential for concluding the sentence. It's interesting to me in that it seems that the entire quoted clause is acting almost like a verb following the canonical pattern (subject) SUBJ (verb) AUX, where SUBJ and AUX match shape in the continuative aspect, as in s^idoz^iNga akHa ghaage akHa, 'the boy is crying.' -jtm On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 1:50 PM, Rory Larson > wrote: Hi Dave, In Omaha and Ponca, the corresponding article is am?, where you have ab?. As with Kaw, it tends to imply 'moving/absent'. But we also have another particle, apparently pronounced the same way, coming at the end of the sentence, that implies that the foregoing is hearsay rather than solid fact. It can stand by itself, or it can be coupled with the 'allegedly' particle bi to make the common ending for 3rd person hearsay action, biama. I notice the accent changes to the first syllable in the second case of your example. I wonder if that could be underlyingly a-aba in that case? The first would be the ablauted version of 'he said it', followed by either the Old Man's article ab? or a 'hearsay' particle as in OP. One problem with that would be that the 'hearsay' am? in OP shouldn't cause a preceding verb to ablaut. My $0.02. Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of David Kaufman Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 1:30 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives Hi all, I have a question re: a curious structure in Kaw, and whether anything like it occurs in other Dhegihan or even non-Dhegihan Siouan languages. The structure involves the articles akh? and ab?, used for subjects in Kaw and usually translated 'the', the first being roughly for 'standing/sitting' and the other for 'moving/absent'. However, in Kaw, these subject articles also somehow seem to have become used as quotatives, or 's/he said.' Here is an example sentence with gloss: Ic?kitanga ab?, "Any?xtaga-?dan," ?ba-dan, nanst?be. Old.Man said bite.me-then said-then kicked.him The Old Man said, "Then bite me," and he kicked him. So ab?, which is normally used for 'moving' subjects and is usually translated 'the', is now being used for 's/he said.' Any thoughts on this, esp. from other Dhegihan perspectives, or other Siouan languages that might have some similar usage? Thanks! David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU Fri Feb 21 19:28:44 2014 From: WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU (De Reuse, Willem) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2014 19:28:44 +0000 Subject: Serial verbs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear David and all: Attached, a .pdf of my article on Serial Verbs in Lakota. All of the Lakota forms in this article are from field research done by others, so it never hurts to check with a Lakota speaker, if you see something you doubt. I don't think it should be a problem if I share this article to this list. If it is a problem, let me know. Full quotation available at Oxford University Press website. Use for scholarly purposes only, and do not post anywhere else. Best, Willem ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics on behalf of David Kaufman Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 12:53 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives Thanks Rory and Justin for the feedback. On another note, I've also been wondering about how serial verbs are handled in Siouan in general. In the Kaw data, when two verbs come together, the second verb always conjugates for person while the first looks like it can either conjugate to match the second verb or it can stay in the third person (neutral) form. I seem to recall that in Biloxi, serial verbs *always* match, first and second verbs having the same person conjugation. What do other Siouan languages do in regards to this? Are there any hard and fast rules about this? Thanks again! Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 5:15 PM, Rory Larson > wrote: Thanks for the analysis, Justin. That makes much better sense than what I had suggested. Very interesting that the Kaw (a)be particle, which should be either cognate or closely related to the Omaha (a)bi particle, can ablaut. I wasn?t aware of that; it?s good to know. Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mcbride, Justin Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 3:00 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives For what it's worth, I believe that what appears to be a second token of aba in the example, aba-daN is actually a different type altogether. In this case, I think it's a case of the verb e(e), 'to say', plus the -(a)be completive aspect marker plus the conjunction -(a)daN, 'and' [e(e)-(a)be-(a)daN > aba-daN]. If so, then, that one really is just 's/he said and,' and the first one is actually the subject marker. But that's not to say that there aren't other examples of the quotative use of subject markers in Ks, even within the same text. Here's an example of quotative akHa: iccikkitaNga akha oo aNs^i waali miNkHe akHa. The Old Man said, "Oh, I'm getting fat." This case is much clearer to my way of thinking because there are two verbal auxiliaries marking the same state (in this case, at rest) back-to-back, one of which refers to 1st person (miNkHe, part of the quotation), and one 3rd person (akHa, marks quotation). It's curious to note that in the audio for this, the speaker laughs after miNkHe and then almost catches her breath before saying akHa, which would indicate to me that she felt it was essential for concluding the sentence. It's interesting to me in that it seems that the entire quoted clause is acting almost like a verb following the canonical pattern (subject) SUBJ (verb) AUX, where SUBJ and AUX match shape in the continuative aspect, as in s^idoz^iNga akHa ghaage akHa, 'the boy is crying.' -jtm On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 1:50 PM, Rory Larson > wrote: Hi Dave, In Omaha and Ponca, the corresponding article is am?, where you have ab?. As with Kaw, it tends to imply ?moving/absent?. But we also have another particle, apparently pronounced the same way, coming at the end of the sentence, that implies that the foregoing is hearsay rather than solid fact. It can stand by itself, or it can be coupled with the ?allegedly? particle bi to make the common ending for 3rd person hearsay action, biama. I notice the accent changes to the first syllable in the second case of your example. I wonder if that could be underlyingly a-aba in that case? The first would be the ablauted version of ?he said it?, followed by either the Old Man?s article ab? or a ?hearsay? particle as in OP. One problem with that would be that the ?hearsay? am? in OP shouldn?t cause a preceding verb to ablaut. My $0.02. Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of David Kaufman Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 1:30 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives Hi all, I have a question re: a curious structure in Kaw, and whether anything like it occurs in other Dhegihan or even non-Dhegihan Siouan languages. The structure involves the articles akh? and ab?, used for subjects in Kaw and usually translated 'the', the first being roughly for 'standing/sitting' and the other for 'moving/absent'. However, in Kaw, these subject articles also somehow seem to have become used as quotatives, or 's/he said.' Here is an example sentence with gloss: Ic?kitanga ab?, ?Any?xtaga-?dan,? ?ba-dan, nanst?be. Old.Man said bite.me-then said-then kicked.him The Old Man said, ?Then bite me,? and he kicked him. So ab?, which is normally used for 'moving' subjects and is usually translated 'the', is now being used for 's/he said.' Any thoughts on this, esp. from other Dhegihan perspectives, or other Siouan languages that might have some similar usage? Thanks! David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 2006Serial VerbsInLakota.pdf Type: application/imagen Size: 1189793 bytes Desc: 2006Serial VerbsInLakota.pdf URL: From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Fri Feb 21 20:01:12 2014 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2014 14:01:12 -0600 Subject: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives In-Reply-To: <71933e22fde8486f894ebcbba2fa0234@DM2PR08MB525.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Rory, So it seems like both forms conjugated may have been the original method (pre-20th century), but, perhaps due to the increasing influence of English, it can now be just final verb? Interesting how these things come about. Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 1:28 PM, Rory Larson wrote: > Dave, > > > > What you describe for Kaw seems to be what my experience with Omaha has > been. As I recall, elicited statements usually have the first verb in > neutral form, but if you ask the speakers which way is better, giving both > options, they generally prefer the one with both verbs conjugated. I think > the latter is the way it normally appears in Dorsey (19th century). > > > > Of course, the real power of the old (?) system is that the first verb can > conjugate for different subjects and objects than the second one, as in "I > want you to give me the toy" = Toy-the me-you-give I-want. > > > > Best, > > Rory > > > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of > *David Kaufman > *Sent:* Friday, February 21, 2014 12:54 PM > > *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU > *Subject:* Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives > > > > Thanks Rory and Justin for the feedback. > > > > On another note, I've also been wondering about how serial verbs are > handled in Siouan in general. In the Kaw data, when two verbs come > together, the second verb always conjugates for person while the first > looks like it can either conjugate to match the second verb or it can stay > in the third person (neutral) form. I seem to recall that in Biloxi, > serial verbs *always* match, first and second verbs having the same person > conjugation. What do other Siouan languages do in regards to this? Are > there any hard and fast rules about this? > > > > Thanks again! > > > > Dave > > > David Kaufman > > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > > > On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 5:15 PM, Rory Larson wrote: > > Thanks for the analysis, Justin. That makes much better sense than what I > had suggested. Very interesting that the Kaw (a)be particle, which should > be either cognate or closely related to the Omaha (a)bi particle, can > ablaut. I wasn't aware of that; it's good to know. > > > > Best, > > Rory > > > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of > *Mcbride, Justin > *Sent:* Thursday, February 20, 2014 3:00 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU > *Subject:* Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives > > > > For what it's worth, I believe that what appears to be a second token of > aba in the example, aba-daN is actually a different type altogether. In > this case, I think it's a case of the verb e(e), 'to say', plus the -(a)be > completive aspect marker plus the conjunction -(a)daN, 'and' > [e(e)-(a)be-(a)daN > aba-daN]. If so, then, that one really is just 's/he > said and,' and the first one is actually the subject marker. But that's not > to say that there aren't other examples of the quotative use of subject > markers in Ks, even within the same text. Here's an example of quotative > akHa: > > > > iccikkitaNga akha oo aNs^i waali miNkHe akHa. > > The Old Man said, "Oh, I'm getting fat." > > > > This case is much clearer to my way of thinking because there are two > verbal auxiliaries marking the same state (in this case, at rest) > back-to-back, one of which refers to 1st person (miNkHe, part of the > quotation), and one 3rd person (akHa, marks quotation). It's curious to > note that in the audio for this, the speaker laughs after miNkHe and then > almost catches her breath before saying akHa, which would indicate to me > that she felt it was essential for concluding the sentence. It's > interesting to me in that it seems that the entire quoted clause is acting > almost like a verb following the canonical pattern (subject) SUBJ (verb) > AUX, where SUBJ and AUX match shape in the continuative aspect, as in > s^idoz^iNga akHa ghaage akHa, 'the boy is crying.' > > > > -jtm > > > > On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 1:50 PM, Rory Larson wrote: > > Hi Dave, > > > > In Omaha and Ponca, the corresponding article is am?, where you have ab?. > As with Kaw, it tends to imply 'moving/absent'. But we also have another > particle, apparently pronounced the same way, coming at the end of the > sentence, that implies that the foregoing is hearsay rather than solid > fact. It can stand by itself, or it can be coupled with the 'allegedly' > particle bi to make the common ending for 3rd person hearsay action, > biama. > > > > I notice the accent changes to the first syllable in the second case of > your example. I wonder if that could be underlyingly a-aba in that case? > The first would be the ablauted version of 'he said it', followed by either > the Old Man's article ab? or a 'hearsay' particle as in OP. One problem > with that would be that the 'hearsay' am? in OP shouldn't cause a preceding > verb to ablaut. > > > > My $0.02. > > > > Best, > > Rory > > > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of > *David Kaufman > *Sent:* Thursday, February 20, 2014 1:30 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU > *Subject:* Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives > > > > Hi all, > > > > I have a question re: a curious structure in Kaw, and whether anything > like it occurs in other Dhegihan or even non-Dhegihan Siouan languages. > The structure involves the articles akh? and ab?, used for subjects in Kaw > and usually translated 'the', the first being roughly for > 'standing/sitting' and the other for 'moving/absent'. However, in Kaw, > these subject articles also somehow seem to have become used as quotatives, > or 's/he said.' Here is an example sentence with gloss: > > > > *Ic?kitanga ab?, "Any?xtaga-?dan," ?ba-dan, nanst?be.* > > Old.Man said bite.me-then said-then kicked.him > > The Old Man said, "Then bite me," and he kicked him. > > > > So ab?, which is normally used for 'moving' subjects and is usually > translated 'the', is now being used for 's/he said.' > > > > Any thoughts on this, esp. from other Dhegihan perspectives, or other > Siouan languages that might have some similar usage? > > > > Thanks! > > > > > David Kaufman > > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Fri Feb 21 20:01:53 2014 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2014 14:01:53 -0600 Subject: Serial verbs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thank you, Willem. Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 1:28 PM, De Reuse, Willem wrote: > > > Dear David and all: > > > Attached, a .pdf of my article on Serial Verbs in Lakota. > > > All of the Lakota forms in this article are from field research done by > others, so it never hurts to check with a Lakota speaker, if you see > something you doubt. > > > I don't think it should be a problem if I share this article to this > list. If it is a problem, let me know. Full quotation available at > Oxford University Press website. Use for scholarly purposes only, and do > not post anywhere else. > > > Best, > > > Willem > ------------------------------ > *From:* Siouan Linguistics on behalf of David > Kaufman > *Sent:* Friday, February 21, 2014 12:53 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives > > Thanks Rory and Justin for the feedback. > > On another note, I've also been wondering about how serial verbs are > handled in Siouan in general. In the Kaw data, when two verbs come > together, the second verb always conjugates for person while the first > looks like it can either conjugate to match the second verb or it can stay > in the third person (neutral) form. I seem to recall that in Biloxi, > serial verbs *always* match, first and second verbs having the same person > conjugation. What do other Siouan languages do in regards to this? Are > there any hard and fast rules about this? > > Thanks again! > > Dave > > David Kaufman > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > > On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 5:15 PM, Rory Larson wrote: > >> Thanks for the analysis, Justin. That makes much better sense than >> what I had suggested. Very interesting that the Kaw (a)be particle, which >> should be either cognate or closely related to the Omaha (a)bi particle, >> can ablaut. I wasn't aware of that; it's good to know. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Rory >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf >> Of *Mcbride, Justin >> *Sent:* Thursday, February 20, 2014 3:00 PM >> *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU >> *Subject:* Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives >> >> >> >> For what it's worth, I believe that what appears to be a second token of >> aba in the example, aba-daN is actually a different type altogether. In >> this case, I think it's a case of the verb e(e), 'to say', plus the -(a)be >> completive aspect marker plus the conjunction -(a)daN, 'and' >> [e(e)-(a)be-(a)daN > aba-daN]. If so, then, that one really is just 's/he >> said and,' and the first one is actually the subject marker. But that's not >> to say that there aren't other examples of the quotative use of subject >> markers in Ks, even within the same text. Here's an example of quotative >> akHa: >> >> >> >> iccikkitaNga akha oo aNs^i waali miNkHe akHa. >> >> The Old Man said, "Oh, I'm getting fat." >> >> >> >> This case is much clearer to my way of thinking because there are two >> verbal auxiliaries marking the same state (in this case, at rest) >> back-to-back, one of which refers to 1st person (miNkHe, part of the >> quotation), and one 3rd person (akHa, marks quotation). It's curious to >> note that in the audio for this, the speaker laughs after miNkHe and then >> almost catches her breath before saying akHa, which would indicate to me >> that she felt it was essential for concluding the sentence. It's >> interesting to me in that it seems that the entire quoted clause is acting >> almost like a verb following the canonical pattern (subject) SUBJ (verb) >> AUX, where SUBJ and AUX match shape in the continuative aspect, as in >> s^idoz^iNga akHa ghaage akHa, 'the boy is crying.' >> >> >> >> -jtm >> >> >> >> On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 1:50 PM, Rory Larson wrote: >> >> Hi Dave, >> >> >> >> In Omaha and Ponca, the corresponding article is am?, where you have >> ab?. As with Kaw, it tends to imply 'moving/absent'. But we also have >> another particle, apparently pronounced the same way, coming at the end of >> the sentence, that implies that the foregoing is hearsay rather than solid >> fact. It can stand by itself, or it can be coupled with the 'allegedly' >> particle bi to make the common ending for 3rd person hearsay action, >> biama. >> >> >> >> I notice the accent changes to the first syllable in the second case of >> your example. I wonder if that could be underlyingly a-aba in that case? >> The first would be the ablauted version of 'he said it', followed by either >> the Old Man's article ab? or a 'hearsay' particle as in OP. One problem >> with that would be that the 'hearsay' am? in OP shouldn't cause a preceding >> verb to ablaut. >> >> >> >> My $0.02. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Rory >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf >> Of *David Kaufman >> *Sent:* Thursday, February 20, 2014 1:30 PM >> *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU >> *Subject:* Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives >> >> >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> I have a question re: a curious structure in Kaw, and whether anything >> like it occurs in other Dhegihan or even non-Dhegihan Siouan languages. >> The structure involves the articles akh? and ab?, used for subjects in Kaw >> and usually translated 'the', the first being roughly for >> 'standing/sitting' and the other for 'moving/absent'. However, in Kaw, >> these subject articles also somehow seem to have become used as quotatives, >> or 's/he said.' Here is an example sentence with gloss: >> >> >> >> *Ic?kitanga ab?, "Any?xtaga-?dan," ?ba-dan, nanst?be.* >> >> Old.Man said bite.me-then said-then kicked.him >> >> The Old Man said, "Then bite me," and he kicked him. >> >> >> >> So ab?, which is normally used for 'moving' subjects and is usually >> translated 'the', is now being used for 's/he said.' >> >> >> >> Any thoughts on this, esp. from other Dhegihan perspectives, or other >> Siouan languages that might have some similar usage? >> >> >> >> Thanks! >> >> >> >> >> David Kaufman >> >> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >> >> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >> >> >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From linguista at GMAIL.COM Fri Feb 21 21:22:50 2014 From: linguista at GMAIL.COM (Bryan James Gordon) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2014 14:22:50 -0700 Subject: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Digging through 19th century Omaha and Ponca texts I've found evidence for a role for subcategorization, that is, some final verbs in some contexts tend to follow conjugated verbs, while others tend to follow "infinitives". Our resident syntacticians may have more precise observations. Catherine? On Feb 21, 2014 1:04 PM, "David Kaufman" wrote: > Rory, > > So it seems like both forms conjugated may have been the original method > (pre-20th century), but, perhaps due to the increasing influence of > English, it can now be just final verb? Interesting how these things come > about. > > Dave > > David Kaufman > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > > On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 1:28 PM, Rory Larson wrote: > >> Dave, >> >> >> >> What you describe for Kaw seems to be what my experience with Omaha has >> been. As I recall, elicited statements usually have the first verb in >> neutral form, but if you ask the speakers which way is better, giving both >> options, they generally prefer the one with both verbs conjugated. I think >> the latter is the way it normally appears in Dorsey (19th century). >> >> >> >> Of course, the real power of the old (?) system is that the first verb >> can conjugate for different subjects and objects than the second one, as in >> ?I want you to give me the toy? = Toy-the me-you-give I-want. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Rory >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf >> Of *David Kaufman >> *Sent:* Friday, February 21, 2014 12:54 PM >> >> *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU >> *Subject:* Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives >> >> >> >> Thanks Rory and Justin for the feedback. >> >> >> >> On another note, I've also been wondering about how serial verbs are >> handled in Siouan in general. In the Kaw data, when two verbs come >> together, the second verb always conjugates for person while the first >> looks like it can either conjugate to match the second verb or it can stay >> in the third person (neutral) form. I seem to recall that in Biloxi, >> serial verbs *always* match, first and second verbs having the same person >> conjugation. What do other Siouan languages do in regards to this? Are >> there any hard and fast rules about this? >> >> >> >> Thanks again! >> >> >> >> Dave >> >> >> David Kaufman >> >> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >> >> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >> >> >> >> On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 5:15 PM, Rory Larson wrote: >> >> Thanks for the analysis, Justin. That makes much better sense than what >> I had suggested. Very interesting that the Kaw (a)be particle, which >> should be either cognate or closely related to the Omaha (a)bi particle, >> can ablaut. I wasn?t aware of that; it?s good to know. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Rory >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf >> Of *Mcbride, Justin >> *Sent:* Thursday, February 20, 2014 3:00 PM >> *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU >> *Subject:* Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives >> >> >> >> For what it's worth, I believe that what appears to be a second token of >> aba in the example, aba-daN is actually a different type altogether. In >> this case, I think it's a case of the verb e(e), 'to say', plus the -(a)be >> completive aspect marker plus the conjunction -(a)daN, 'and' >> [e(e)-(a)be-(a)daN > aba-daN]. If so, then, that one really is just 's/he >> said and,' and the first one is actually the subject marker. But that's not >> to say that there aren't other examples of the quotative use of subject >> markers in Ks, even within the same text. Here's an example of quotative >> akHa: >> >> >> >> iccikkitaNga akha oo aNs^i waali miNkHe akHa. >> >> The Old Man said, "Oh, I'm getting fat." >> >> >> >> This case is much clearer to my way of thinking because there are two >> verbal auxiliaries marking the same state (in this case, at rest) >> back-to-back, one of which refers to 1st person (miNkHe, part of the >> quotation), and one 3rd person (akHa, marks quotation). It's curious to >> note that in the audio for this, the speaker laughs after miNkHe and then >> almost catches her breath before saying akHa, which would indicate to me >> that she felt it was essential for concluding the sentence. It's >> interesting to me in that it seems that the entire quoted clause is acting >> almost like a verb following the canonical pattern (subject) SUBJ (verb) >> AUX, where SUBJ and AUX match shape in the continuative aspect, as in >> s^idoz^iNga akHa ghaage akHa, 'the boy is crying.' >> >> >> >> -jtm >> >> >> >> On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 1:50 PM, Rory Larson wrote: >> >> Hi Dave, >> >> >> >> In Omaha and Ponca, the corresponding article is am?, where you have >> ab?. As with Kaw, it tends to imply ?moving/absent?. But we also have >> another particle, apparently pronounced the same way, coming at the end of >> the sentence, that implies that the foregoing is hearsay rather than solid >> fact. It can stand by itself, or it can be coupled with the ?allegedly? >> particle bi to make the common ending for 3rd person hearsay action, >> biama. >> >> >> >> I notice the accent changes to the first syllable in the second case of >> your example. I wonder if that could be underlyingly a-aba in that case? >> The first would be the ablauted version of ?he said it?, followed by either >> the Old Man?s article ab? or a ?hearsay? particle as in OP. One problem >> with that would be that the ?hearsay? am? in OP shouldn?t cause a preceding >> verb to ablaut. >> >> >> >> My $0.02. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Rory >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf >> Of *David Kaufman >> *Sent:* Thursday, February 20, 2014 1:30 PM >> *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU >> *Subject:* Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives >> >> >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> I have a question re: a curious structure in Kaw, and whether anything >> like it occurs in other Dhegihan or even non-Dhegihan Siouan languages. >> The structure involves the articles akh? and ab?, used for subjects in Kaw >> and usually translated 'the', the first being roughly for >> 'standing/sitting' and the other for 'moving/absent'. However, in Kaw, >> these subject articles also somehow seem to have become used as quotatives, >> or 's/he said.' Here is an example sentence with gloss: >> >> >> >> *Ic?kitanga ab?, ?Any?xtaga-?dan,? ?ba-dan, nanst?be.* >> >> Old.Man said bite.me-then said-then kicked.him >> >> The Old Man said, ?Then bite me,? and he kicked him. >> >> >> >> So ab?, which is normally used for 'moving' subjects and is usually >> translated 'the', is now being used for 's/he said.' >> >> >> >> Any thoughts on this, esp. from other Dhegihan perspectives, or other >> Siouan languages that might have some similar usage? >> >> >> >> Thanks! >> >> >> >> >> David Kaufman >> >> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >> >> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >> >> >> >> >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Sat Feb 22 03:33:21 2014 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm Goodtracks) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2014 21:33:21 -0600 Subject: Aho! In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E436C33F3C3C71@Server6-EX.omtribe.net> Message-ID: That is an interesting find, and all your explanations are plausible, especially the 2nd one. I do not recall coming across this before, and I can not find any thing like it in the IOM Dictionary. The imperative works just as you say, and I know of no deviation. The collected texts from Dorsey, and those from Julia Small, a monolingual speaker, did not have examples as you have found. The mystery needs be reviewed by a higher power, namely the Siouan List, to whom I am going to cc this reply for their input by the professional experts and those who may have some explanation for this occurrence, or able to leave as a Hamilton phenomena. From: Campbell, Sky Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 10:44 AM To: Jimm G. GoodTracks Subject: Aho! Hope all is well up your way J. Quick question about something I?ve noticed in Hamilton and Irvin?s books. After some of the commands/imperatives, there is an extra syllable after the verb. For example, they have: wa-ka a-ta-ka-r? ? see the snake I have no idea what the ?ka? is doing after (what would be for us) ?ada?. But with Hamilton, he doesn?t differentiate between ?k? and ?g? so it may actually be a ?g? for us. He uses this quite a bit for commands but I?m not understanding why and so far I haven?t found any clues. From what I can tell, it isn?t a form of plural since he uses ?wi and he uses the singular 2nd person when the ?ka? is used. And he doesn?t always use it for the singular imperative form which is what adds to my confusion. I have 3 possibilities that spring to mind. First, the ?ka? might be a contracted form of ?gasun? which perhaps might be indicating that whatever the speaker wants done, they want it done now. Not sure about this one since you usually see ?gasun? at the beginning of a statement. Second is that the ending imperative ?re? may actually be a contraction of an older form ?kare/gare? and it has just stopped being used. That one is just a random guess LOL. Finally, I am wondering if the ?ka? is actually perhaps ?ke/ge? to refer to ?in like manner? (ithke) but since it is an imperative, the ?e? changes to an ?a?. If so, then the above sentence would perhaps say something like ?Look at the snake (in like manner).? And if so, I wonder if the context of the conversation would indicate just exactly what the ?like manner? means. What do you think? Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org ?? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Sat Feb 22 05:24:07 2014 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM (Sky Campbell) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2014 23:24:07 -0600 Subject: Aho! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'll show a few more examples from Hamilton that may help. The example I gave (wa-ka a-ta-ka-r?) was from Hamilton's An Ioway Grammar, page 29. The following examples are from Hamilton's An Elementary Book of the Ioway Language. Perhaps these examples can help us find a common theme between them. I'll show imperatives with and without the extra "ka" syllable. FYI I'll also be using Hamilton's orthography. ?-ka-r? - say it, speak (page 21) I've seen that as simply "a re" where the verb "e" for "say" changes to "a" for the imperative. na-y?-r? - stand up (no "ka" here) (page 22) ya-w?-r? - sing thou (no "ka" here) (page 23) u-yu-r? - fill it (no "ka" here) (page 24) u-we-ra - do it (no "ka" here and is in plural form with the suffix -wi...might also be a typo since they went with "ra" rather than "r?" unless he went for a possible female form but I'm doubting that since everything else seems to be exclusively in the male form) (page 24) hu-we-r? - come here (no "ka" here and another plural form (page 24) ru-f?-r? - take it (no "ka" here) (page 24) ma-y?-r? - walk thou (no "ka" here (page 25) a-ta-r? - see thou (no "ka" here and it is the same thing as my original example but without the "ka") (page 25) jw?-me-ka-r? - doctor me (page 29) e-c?-ka-r? - speak thou, tell (page 30) wo-ug-ka-r? - work thou (page 30) ru-meg-ka-r? - buy it (page 30) me-na-we-r? - sit ye down (no "ka" here and is in plural form) (page 30) ke-kr?-we-ho - be ye gone (no "ka" here and is in plural form...also in the more polite imperative using "ho" instead of "re") (page 30) u-jkun-y?-r? - do not do it (no "ka" here) (page 31) wo-ku-we-r? - give them (no "ka" here and is in plural form) (page 31) Ok, this should do for now. Typing out this list has given me a few tentative ideas that I need to flesh out but I'll be grateful for any input :). Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 9:33 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! That is an interesting find, and all your explanations are plausible, especially the 2nd one. I do not recall coming across this before, and I can not find any thing like it in the IOM Dictionary. The imperative works just as you say, and I know of no deviation. The collected texts from Dorsey, and those from Julia Small, a monolingual speaker, did not have examples as you have found. The mystery needs be reviewed by a higher power, namely the Siouan List, to whom I am going to cc this reply for their input by the professional experts and those who may have some explanation for this occurrence, or able to leave as a Hamilton phenomena. From: Campbell, Sky Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 10:44 AM To: Jimm G. GoodTracks Subject: Aho! Hope all is well up your way J. Quick question about something I?ve noticed in Hamilton and Irvin?s books. After some of the commands/imperatives, there is an extra syllable after the verb. For example, they have: wa-ka a-ta-ka-r? ? see the snake I have no idea what the ?ka? is doing after (what would be for us) ?ada?. But with Hamilton, he doesn?t differentiate between ?k? and ?g? so it may actually be a ?g? for us. He uses this quite a bit for commands but I?m not understanding why and so far I haven?t found any clues. From what I can tell, it isn?t a form of plural since he uses ?wi and he uses the singular 2nd person when the ?ka? is used. And he doesn?t always use it for the singular imperative form which is what adds to my confusion. I have 3 possibilities that spring to mind. First, the ?ka? might be a contracted form of ?gasun? which perhaps might be indicating that whatever the speaker wants done, they want it done now. Not sure about this one since you usually see ?gasun? at the beginning of a statement. Second is that the ending imperative ?re? may actually be a contraction of an older form ?kare/gare? and it has just stopped being used. That one is just a random guess LOL. Finally, I am wondering if the ?ka? is actually perhaps ?ke/ge? to refer to ?in like manner? (ithke) but since it is an imperative, the ?e? changes to an ?a?. If so, then the above sentence would perhaps say something like ?Look at the snake (in like manner).? And if so, I wonder if the context of the conversation would indicate just exactly what the ?like manner? means. What do you think? Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org ?? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Sat Feb 22 07:03:39 2014 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Greer, Jill) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2014 07:03:39 +0000 Subject: Aho! In-Reply-To: <000601cf2f8e$4f77da70$ee678f50$@com> Message-ID: Hi, Sky, Interesting! This is my gut response, without any new examples unfortunately. I can't help but think that it's somehow ga- the locational prefix for something you can see, but not directly next to 1st and 2nd person (gaida 'over there (but not yonder)', gaigu, etc. - which could ultimately be related to gasuN also. It might clarify actual location, or be used metaphorically for 'now/soon' even by itself. Regarding your concern about it occurring after the verb, I can think of the common phrase Are gasuN khi 'It's okay/that's all right' , which looks like it could be in other parts of a sentence, too, besides the beginning? Your last idea seems possible also, about thge 'to be thus' which could be a result ablauting before the command? I don't know if the initial fricative was missed by Hamilton, or was deleted. (Sort of like 'Walk this way' :) ?) Is there any precedent in other Siouan languages for an emphatic form related to IOM kHe huN' ? I had the thought IF it were abbreviated to kHe, and occurred next to the -re 'command form', it could ablaut to kha , and make an emphatic command. (I have developed a personal English variant of that myself with my youngest son, Do X RIGHT NOW! (Sometimes followed by 'I'm not joking', just in case he's still not listening?) It's getting late, so forgive me if I'm stretching the limits of Siouan ablaut rules. Thanks for the examples, Sky. I know I've read through Hamilton but had forgotten that peculiarity. Help us out, friends. Iren, is there such a thing in Hochunk, too? Jill On Feb 21, 2014, at 11:24 PM, Sky Campbell > wrote: I'll show a few more examples from Hamilton that may help. The example I gave (wa-ka a-ta-ka-r?) was from Hamilton's An Ioway Grammar, page 29. The following examples are from Hamilton's An Elementary Book of the Ioway Language. Perhaps these examples can help us find a common theme between them. I'll show imperatives with and without the extra "ka" syllable. FYI I'll also be using Hamilton's orthography. ?-ka-r? - say it, speak (page 21) I've seen that as simply "a re" where the verb "e" for "say" changes to "a" for the imperative. na-y?-r? - stand up (no "ka" here) (page 22) ya-w?-r? - sing thou (no "ka" here) (page 23) u-yu-r? - fill it (no "ka" here) (page 24) u-we-ra - do it (no "ka" here and is in plural form with the suffix -wi...might also be a typo since they went with "ra" rather than "r?" unless he went for a possible female form but I'm doubting that since everything else seems to be exclusively in the male form) (page 24) hu-we-r? - come here (no "ka" here and another plural form (page 24) ru-f?-r? - take it (no "ka" here) (page 24) ma-y?-r? - walk thou (no "ka" here (page 25) a-ta-r? - see thou (no "ka" here and it is the same thing as my original example but without the "ka") (page 25) jw?-me-ka-r? - doctor me (page 29) e-c?-ka-r? - speak thou, tell (page 30) wo-ug-ka-r? - work thou (page 30) ru-meg-ka-r? - buy it (page 30) me-na-we-r? - sit ye down (no "ka" here and is in plural form) (page 30) ke-kr?-we-ho - be ye gone (no "ka" here and is in plural form...also in the more polite imperative using "ho" instead of "re") (page 30) u-jkun-y?-r? - do not do it (no "ka" here) (page 31) wo-ku-we-r? - give them (no "ka" here and is in plural form) (page 31) Ok, this should do for now. Typing out this list has given me a few tentative ideas that I need to flesh out but I'll be grateful for any input :). Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 9:33 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! That is an interesting find, and all your explanations are plausible, especially the 2nd one. I do not recall coming across this before, and I can not find any thing like it in the IOM Dictionary. The imperative works just as you say, and I know of no deviation. The collected texts from Dorsey, and those from Julia Small, a monolingual speaker, did not have examples as you have found. The mystery needs be reviewed by a higher power, namely the Siouan List, to whom I am going to cc this reply for their input by the professional experts and those who may have some explanation for this occurrence, or able to leave as a Hamilton phenomena. From: Campbell, Sky Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 10:44 AM To: Jimm G. GoodTracks Subject: Aho! Hope all is well up your way :). Quick question about something I?ve noticed in Hamilton and Irvin?s books. After some of the commands/imperatives, there is an extra syllable after the verb. For example, they have: wa-ka a-ta-ka-r? ? see the snake I have no idea what the ?ka? is doing after (what would be for us) ?ada?. But with Hamilton, he doesn?t differentiate between ?k? and ?g? so it may actually be a ?g? for us. He uses this quite a bit for commands but I?m not understanding why and so far I haven?t found any clues. From what I can tell, it isn?t a form of plural since he uses ?wi and he uses the singular 2nd person when the ?ka? is used. And he doesn?t always use it for the singular imperative form which is what adds to my confusion. I have 3 possibilities that spring to mind. First, the ?ka? might be a contracted form of ?gasun? which perhaps might be indicating that whatever the speaker wants done, they want it done now. Not sure about this one since you usually see ?gasun? at the beginning of a statement. Second is that the ending imperative ?re? may actually be a contraction of an older form ?kare/gare? and it has just stopped being used. That one is just a random guess LOL. Finally, I am wondering if the ?ka? is actually perhaps ?ke/ge? to refer to ?in like manner? (ithke) but since it is an imperative, the ?e? changes to an ?a?. If so, then the above sentence would perhaps say something like ?Look at the snake (in like manner).? And if so, I wonder if the context of the conversation would indicate just exactly what the ?like manner? means. What do you think? Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org ?? This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jfu at LAKHOTA.ORG Sat Feb 22 14:08:13 2014 From: jfu at LAKHOTA.ORG (Jan Ullrich) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2014 15:08:13 +0100 Subject: Serial verbs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Willem, Thank you for sharing your interesting paper on Serial Verb in Lakota. One thing that caught my eye is the statement that the V2 is always intransitive. In my experience compound verbs with transitive V2 are as common as those with intransitive V2. I thought it might be something you would want to look at if you have a chance to revise the paper. All the best Jan From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of De Reuse, Willem Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 8:29 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Serial verbs Dear David and all: Attached, a .pdf of my article on Serial Verbs in Lakota. All of the Lakota forms in this article are from field research done by others, so it never hurts to check with a Lakota speaker, if you see something you doubt. I don't think it should be a problem if I share this article to this list. If it is a problem, let me know. Full quotation available at Oxford University Press website. Use for scholarly purposes only, and do not post anywhere else. Best, Willem _____ From: Siouan Linguistics on behalf of David Kaufman Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 12:53 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives Thanks Rory and Justin for the feedback. On another note, I've also been wondering about how serial verbs are handled in Siouan in general. In the Kaw data, when two verbs come together, the second verb always conjugates for person while the first looks like it can either conjugate to match the second verb or it can stay in the third person (neutral) form. I seem to recall that in Biloxi, serial verbs *always* match, first and second verbs having the same person conjugation. What do other Siouan languages do in regards to this? Are there any hard and fast rules about this? Thanks again! Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 5:15 PM, Rory Larson wrote: Thanks for the analysis, Justin. That makes much better sense than what I had suggested. Very interesting that the Kaw (a)be particle, which should be either cognate or closely related to the Omaha (a)bi particle, can ablaut. I wasn't aware of that; it's good to know. Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mcbride, Justin Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 3:00 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives For what it's worth, I believe that what appears to be a second token of aba in the example, aba-daN is actually a different type altogether. In this case, I think it's a case of the verb e(e), 'to say', plus the -(a)be completive aspect marker plus the conjunction -(a)daN, 'and' [e(e)-(a)be-(a)daN > aba-daN]. If so, then, that one really is just 's/he said and,' and the first one is actually the subject marker. But that's not to say that there aren't other examples of the quotative use of subject markers in Ks, even within the same text. Here's an example of quotative akHa: iccikkitaNga akha oo aNs^i waali miNkHe akHa. The Old Man said, "Oh, I'm getting fat." This case is much clearer to my way of thinking because there are two verbal auxiliaries marking the same state (in this case, at rest) back-to-back, one of which refers to 1st person (miNkHe, part of the quotation), and one 3rd person (akHa, marks quotation). It's curious to note that in the audio for this, the speaker laughs after miNkHe and then almost catches her breath before saying akHa, which would indicate to me that she felt it was essential for concluding the sentence. It's interesting to me in that it seems that the entire quoted clause is acting almost like a verb following the canonical pattern (subject) SUBJ (verb) AUX, where SUBJ and AUX match shape in the continuative aspect, as in s^idoz^iNga akHa ghaage akHa, 'the boy is crying.' -jtm On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 1:50 PM, Rory Larson wrote: Hi Dave, In Omaha and Ponca, the corresponding article is am?, where you have ab?. As with Kaw, it tends to imply 'moving/absent'. But we also have another particle, apparently pronounced the same way, coming at the end of the sentence, that implies that the foregoing is hearsay rather than solid fact. It can stand by itself, or it can be coupled with the 'allegedly' particle bi to make the common ending for 3rd person hearsay action, biama. I notice the accent changes to the first syllable in the second case of your example. I wonder if that could be underlyingly a-aba in that case? The first would be the ablauted version of 'he said it', followed by either the Old Man's article ab? or a 'hearsay' particle as in OP. One problem with that would be that the 'hearsay' am? in OP shouldn't cause a preceding verb to ablaut. My $0.02. Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of David Kaufman Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 1:30 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives Hi all, I have a question re: a curious structure in Kaw, and whether anything like it occurs in other Dhegihan or even non-Dhegihan Siouan languages. The structure involves the articles akh? and ab?, used for subjects in Kaw and usually translated 'the', the first being roughly for 'standing/sitting' and the other for 'moving/absent'. However, in Kaw, these subject articles also somehow seem to have become used as quotatives, or 's/he said.' Here is an example sentence with gloss: Ic?kitanga ab?, "Any?xtaga-?dan," ?ba-dan, nanst?be. Old.Man said bite.me-then said-then kicked.him The Old Man said, "Then bite me," and he kicked him. So ab?, which is normally used for 'moving' subjects and is usually translated 'the', is now being used for 's/he said.' Any thoughts on this, esp. from other Dhegihan perspectives, or other Siouan languages that might have some similar usage? Thanks! David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Sat Feb 22 14:52:06 2014 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm Goodtracks) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2014 08:52:06 -0600 Subject: Aho! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: H?nwe Pi: Jill says: I can't help but think that it's somehow ga- the locational prefix for something you can see, but not directly next to 1st and 2nd person (gaida 'over there (but not yonder)', gaigu, etc. - which could ultimately be related to gasuN also. It might clarify actual location, or be used metaphorically for 'now/soon' even by itself. Now applying that to the sentences, ?-ka-r? - say it, speak = ? re/ ? ga re (Say it now!) jw?-me-ka-r? - doctor me = sw?hi re/ sw?mi ga re (Doctor me now!) e-c?-ka-r? - speak thou, tell = i^cha re/ i^che ga re (Speak now!) ~~ [Jill, in the imperative, is it not ~ it^a re ?????] wo-ug-ka-r? - work thou = wa^?n ne/ wa^?n ga re (Work it now!) ru-meg-ka-r? - buy it = r?mi re/ r?mi ga re (Buy it now!) It does seem to apply in application above. Now, if that being so, why o? why does it not show up in any other texts, except Hamilton? I suppose it could have been a spoken form of the period (pre- 1850?s) that was used and then dropped by latter generations. It is noted in the dictionary, these applications that may produce a ?ga?: ga-... prf. just; exactly. **SEE: ga??n; ga?da. ga^? v.i. say as follows. Hink??i ga^?: ?G?^e ko?th^in hinnah?^e,? ? ki, My grandmother said as follows: ?He is the one we were talking about.? ga^?^a v.t. say as follows to another. They said as follows to him?, Ga^ig??e? ke. Hint?gwa ga^ih?^a: ??annegrad?nwe h?e ke,? ih? ke, I said as follows to my grandson: ?You will give me (your own one) your attention,? I told him. ga^?ge; g?ig? v.i. say that (in bad sence, slander, reproof). ?re iw?hu?e ?k??i ke Wan^s?ge ga^ige?e ke, Some people say that he does not know (anything, but in truth, the real facts support the opposite is true). H?da w?nsha x??itan gaw??gena wak?nda p??k??i war?dhe h?e ke, And that old man preacher rebuked them, saying the devil was going to get them for their sins. g? ir?yin; ga^?rayin v.t. think that; make up one?s mind. G? ih?dayin nu^? k?^o ha^?n ?k??i ke, although, I have made up my mind, I have not yet done it (the work). Sr? h?e israyin je, Do you think that you will go? **SEE: ir?yin; w?ge. g? ir? v.t. think that; think as follows. Tanh?dan grat?gre hinn?wi?ge p? nu^?re ga ih?re ke, If we were all going together, I think that it would be good. **SEE: ir?; ga?da. Jimm From: Greer, Jill Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2014 1:03 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! Hi, Sky, Interesting! This is my gut response, without any new examples unfortunately. I can't help but think that it's somehow ga- the locational prefix for something you can see, but not directly next to 1st and 2nd person (gaida 'over there (but not yonder)', gaigu, etc. - which could ultimately be related to gasuN also. It might clarify actual location, or be used metaphorically for 'now/soon' even by itself. Regarding your concern about it occurring after the verb, I can think of the common phrase Are gasuN khi 'It's okay/that's all right' , which looks like it could be in other parts of a sentence, too, besides the beginning? Your last idea seems possible also, about thge 'to be thus' which could be a result ablauting before the command? I don't know if the initial fricative was missed by Hamilton, or was deleted. (Sort of like 'Walk this way' :) ?) Is there any precedent in other Siouan languages for an emphatic form related to IOM kHe huN' ? I had the thought IF it were abbreviated to kHe, and occurred next to the -re 'command form', it could ablaut to kha , and make an emphatic command. (I have developed a personal English variant of that myself with my youngest son, Do X RIGHT NOW! (Sometimes followed by 'I'm not joking', just in case he's still not listening?) It's getting late, so forgive me if I'm stretching the limits of Siouan ablaut rules. Thanks for the examples, Sky. I know I've read through Hamilton but had forgotten that peculiarity. Help us out, friends. Iren, is there such a thing in Hochunk, too? Jill On Feb 21, 2014, at 11:24 PM, Sky Campbell wrote: I'll show a few more examples from Hamilton that may help. The example I gave (wa-ka a-ta-ka-r?) was from Hamilton's An Ioway Grammar, page 29. The following examples are from Hamilton's An Elementary Book of the Ioway Language. Perhaps these examples can help us find a common theme between them. I'll show imperatives with and without the extra "ka" syllable. FYI I'll also be using Hamilton's orthography. ?-ka-r? - say it, speak (page 21) I've seen that as simply "a re" where the verb "e" for "say" changes to "a" for the imperative. na-y?-r? - stand up (no "ka" here) (page 22) ya-w?-r? - sing thou (no "ka" here) (page 23) u-yu-r? - fill it (no "ka" here) (page 24) u-we-ra - do it (no "ka" here and is in plural form with the suffix -wi...might also be a typo since they went with "ra" rather than "r?" unless he went for a possible female form but I'm doubting that since everything else seems to be exclusively in the male form) (page 24) hu-we-r? - come here (no "ka" here and another plural form (page 24) ru-f?-r? - take it (no "ka" here) (page 24) ma-y?-r? - walk thou (no "ka" here (page 25) a-ta-r? - see thou (no "ka" here and it is the same thing as my original example but without the "ka") (page 25) jw?-me-ka-r? - doctor me (page 29) e-c?-ka-r? - speak thou, tell (page 30) wo-ug-ka-r? - work thou (page 30) ru-meg-ka-r? - buy it (page 30) me-na-we-r? - sit ye down (no "ka" here and is in plural form) (page 30) ke-kr?-we-ho - be ye gone (no "ka" here and is in plural form...also in the more polite imperative using "ho" instead of "re") (page 30) u-jkun-y?-r? - do not do it (no "ka" here) (page 31) wo-ku-we-r? - give them (no "ka" here and is in plural form) (page 31) Ok, this should do for now. Typing out this list has given me a few tentative ideas that I need to flesh out but I'll be grateful for any input :). Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 9:33 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! That is an interesting find, and all your explanations are plausible, especially the 2nd one. I do not recall coming across this before, and I can not find any thing like it in the IOM Dictionary. The imperative works just as you say, and I know of no deviation. The collected texts from Dorsey, and those from Julia Small, a monolingual speaker, did not have examples as you have found. The mystery needs be reviewed by a higher power, namely the Siouan List, to whom I am going to cc this reply for their input by the professional experts and those who may have some explanation for this occurrence, or able to leave as a Hamilton phenomena. From: Campbell, Sky Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 10:44 AM To: Jimm G. GoodTracks Subject: Aho! Hope all is well up your way J. Quick question about something I?ve noticed in Hamilton and Irvin?s books. After some of the commands/imperatives, there is an extra syllable after the verb. For example, they have: wa-ka a-ta-ka-r? ? see the snake I have no idea what the ?ka? is doing after (what would be for us) ?ada?. But with Hamilton, he doesn?t differentiate between ?k? and ?g? so it may actually be a ?g? for us. He uses this quite a bit for commands but I?m not understanding why and so far I haven?t found any clues. From what I can tell, it isn?t a form of plural since he uses ?wi and he uses the singular 2nd person when the ?ka? is used. And he doesn?t always use it for the singular imperative form which is what adds to my confusion. I have 3 possibilities that spring to mind. First, the ?ka? might be a contracted form of ?gasun? which perhaps might be indicating that whatever the speaker wants done, they want it done now. Not sure about this one since you usually see ?gasun? at the beginning of a statement. Second is that the ending imperative ?re? may actually be a contraction of an older form ?kare/gare? and it has just stopped being used. That one is just a random guess LOL. Finally, I am wondering if the ?ka? is actually perhaps ?ke/ge? to refer to ?in like manner? (ithke) but since it is an imperative, the ?e? changes to an ?a?. If so, then the above sentence would perhaps say something like ?Look at the snake (in like manner).? And if so, I wonder if the context of the conversation would indicate just exactly what the ?like manner? means. What do you think? Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org ?? This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From okibjonathan at YAHOO.COM Sat Feb 22 15:10:40 2014 From: okibjonathan at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Holmes) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2014 07:10:40 -0800 Subject: Oglala Lakota speaker breaks down a term. Message-ID: "Wo = Collectively. Wa = Pure and sacred. Hunku = Teachings through mother or elderly from the ancestors. Ki = That which is. Ye = Forever into the future. {Therefore} Wowahunkukiye = Collectively the pure and sacred teachings of our ancestors which is forever into the future. An elder's way of reminding us the reality of life and how we must conduct ourselves as Lakota people." -- Rick?Two Dogs (Oglala Lakota) ? "If you enjoy your freedom, thank a Vet." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU Sat Feb 22 16:46:36 2014 From: WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU (De Reuse, Willem) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2014 16:46:36 +0000 Subject: Serial verbs In-Reply-To: <009d01cf2fd7$87161840$954248c0$@org> Message-ID: Dear Jan: Good hearing from you. Thanks for pointing this out. I do not now know why I could have said that V2 is always intransitive. Clearly, V2 is transitive in example (11) in this paper!!! Oh my! Editors of this volume did not catch this either. Oh well, such is life, one makes mistakes that no one catches! It does happen to be the case that in the corpus of data I used intransitive V2s were more common. If I ever revise this, I would fix this, and try to reelicit every sentence with a native speaker myself. Anyway, it did put Lakota on the map as a language with quite a bit of verb serialization. All the best, Willem ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics on behalf of Jan Ullrich Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2014 8:08 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Serial verbs Dear Willem, Thank you for sharing your interesting paper on Serial Verb in Lakota. One thing that caught my eye is the statement that the V2 is always intransitive. In my experience compound verbs with transitive V2 are as common as those with intransitive V2. I thought it might be something you would want to look at if you have a chance to revise the paper. All the best Jan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Sat Feb 22 18:26:12 2014 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM (Sky Campbell) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2014 12:26:12 -0600 Subject: Aho! In-Reply-To: <585FE42896DD4ECA978404DD37D2D190@AsusLaptop> Message-ID: Going along with the "now" idea, I'm going to keep an eye out for the full form of "gasun" in these instances along with anything that will give some clues for this. I've been working a lot with Hamilton's material lately so I'll be sure to go over it thoroughly. As far as "ich'a re/it'a re", I wonder if these forms have something to do with the d/t changing to ch/j (IE te/che for buffalo and inde/inje for face) with some terms. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2014 8:52 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! H?nwe Pi: Jill says: I can't help but think that it's somehow ga- the locational prefix for something you can see, but not directly next to 1st and 2nd person (gaida 'over there (but not yonder)', gaigu, etc. - which could ultimately be related to gasuN also. It might clarify actual location, or be used metaphorically for 'now/soon' even by itself. Now applying that to the sentences, ?-ka-r? - say it, speak = ? re/ ? ga re (Say it now!) jw?-me-ka-r? - doctor me = sw?hi re/ sw?mi ga re (Doctor me now!) e-c?-ka-r? - speak thou, tell = i^cha re/ i^che ga re (Speak now!) ~~ [Jill, in the imperative, is it not ~ it^a re ?????] wo-ug-ka-r? - work thou = wa^?n ne/ wa^?n ga re (Work it now!) ru-meg-ka-r? - buy it = r?mi re/ r?mi ga re (Buy it now!) It does seem to apply in application above. Now, if that being so, why o? why does it not show up in any other texts, except Hamilton? I suppose it could have been a spoken form of the period (pre- 1850?s) that was used and then dropped by latter generations. It is noted in the dictionary, these applications that may produce a ?ga?: ga-... prf. just; exactly. **SEE: ga??n; ga?da. ga^? v.i. say as follows. Hink??i ga^?: ?G?^e ko?th^in hinnah?^e,? ? ki, My grandmother said as follows: ?He is the one we were talking about.? ga^?^a v.t. say as follows to another. They said as follows to him?, Ga^ig??e? ke. Hint?gwa ga^ih?^a: ??annegrad?nwe h?e ke,? ih? ke, I said as follows to my grandson: ?You will give me (your own one) your attention,? I told him. ga^?ge; g?ig? v.i. say that (in bad sence, slander, reproof). ?re iw?hu?e ?k??i ke Wan^s?ge ga^ige?e ke, Some people say that he does not know (anything, but in truth, the real facts support the opposite is true). H?da w?nsha x??itan gaw??gena wak?nda p??k??i war?dhe h?e ke, And that old man preacher rebuked them, saying the devil was going to get them for their sins. g? ir?yin; ga^?rayin v.t. think that; make up one?s mind. G? ih?dayin nu^? k?^o ha^?n ?k??i ke, although, I have made up my mind, I have not yet done it (the work). Sr? h?e israyin je, Do you think that you will go? **SEE: ir?yin; w?ge. g? ir? v.t. think that; think as follows. Tanh?dan grat?gre hinn?wi?ge p? nu^?re ga ih?re ke, If we were all going together, I think that it would be good. **SEE: ir?; ga?da. Jimm From: Greer, Jill Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2014 1:03 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! Hi, Sky, Interesting! This is my gut response, without any new examples unfortunately. I can't help but think that it's somehow ga- the locational prefix for something you can see, but not directly next to 1st and 2nd person (gaida 'over there (but not yonder)', gaigu, etc. - which could ultimately be related to gasuN also. It might clarify actual location, or be used metaphorically for 'now/soon' even by itself. Regarding your concern about it occurring after the verb, I can think of the common phrase Are gasuN khi 'It's okay/that's all right' , which looks like it could be in other parts of a sentence, too, besides the beginning? Your last idea seems possible also, about thge 'to be thus' which could be a result ablauting before the command? I don't know if the initial fricative was missed by Hamilton, or was deleted. (Sort of like 'Walk this way' :) ?) Is there any precedent in other Siouan languages for an emphatic form related to IOM kHe huN' ? I had the thought IF it were abbreviated to kHe, and occurred next to the -re 'command form', it could ablaut to kha , and make an emphatic command. (I have developed a personal English variant of that myself with my youngest son, Do X RIGHT NOW! (Sometimes followed by 'I'm not joking', just in case he's still not listening?) It's getting late, so forgive me if I'm stretching the limits of Siouan ablaut rules. Thanks for the examples, Sky. I know I've read through Hamilton but had forgotten that peculiarity. Help us out, friends. Iren, is there such a thing in Hochunk, too? Jill On Feb 21, 2014, at 11:24 PM, Sky Campbell wrote: I'll show a few more examples from Hamilton that may help. The example I gave (wa-ka a-ta-ka-r?) was from Hamilton's An Ioway Grammar, page 29. The following examples are from Hamilton's An Elementary Book of the Ioway Language. Perhaps these examples can help us find a common theme between them. I'll show imperatives with and without the extra "ka" syllable. FYI I'll also be using Hamilton's orthography. ?-ka-r? - say it, speak (page 21) I've seen that as simply "a re" where the verb "e" for "say" changes to "a" for the imperative. na-y?-r? - stand up (no "ka" here) (page 22) ya-w?-r? - sing thou (no "ka" here) (page 23) u-yu-r? - fill it (no "ka" here) (page 24) u-we-ra - do it (no "ka" here and is in plural form with the suffix -wi...might also be a typo since they went with "ra" rather than "r?" unless he went for a possible female form but I'm doubting that since everything else seems to be exclusively in the male form) (page 24) hu-we-r? - come here (no "ka" here and another plural form (page 24) ru-f?-r? - take it (no "ka" here) (page 24) ma-y?-r? - walk thou (no "ka" here (page 25) a-ta-r? - see thou (no "ka" here and it is the same thing as my original example but without the "ka") (page 25) jw?-me-ka-r? - doctor me (page 29) e-c?-ka-r? - speak thou, tell (page 30) wo-ug-ka-r? - work thou (page 30) ru-meg-ka-r? - buy it (page 30) me-na-we-r? - sit ye down (no "ka" here and is in plural form) (page 30) ke-kr?-we-ho - be ye gone (no "ka" here and is in plural form...also in the more polite imperative using "ho" instead of "re") (page 30) u-jkun-y?-r? - do not do it (no "ka" here) (page 31) wo-ku-we-r? - give them (no "ka" here and is in plural form) (page 31) Ok, this should do for now. Typing out this list has given me a few tentative ideas that I need to flesh out but I'll be grateful for any input :). Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 9:33 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! That is an interesting find, and all your explanations are plausible, especially the 2nd one. I do not recall coming across this before, and I can not find any thing like it in the IOM Dictionary. The imperative works just as you say, and I know of no deviation. The collected texts from Dorsey, and those from Julia Small, a monolingual speaker, did not have examples as you have found. The mystery needs be reviewed by a higher power, namely the Siouan List, to whom I am going to cc this reply for their input by the professional experts and those who may have some explanation for this occurrence, or able to leave as a Hamilton phenomena. From: Campbell, Sky Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 10:44 AM To: Jimm G. GoodTracks Subject: Aho! Hope all is well up your way J. Quick question about something I?ve noticed in Hamilton and Irvin?s books. After some of the commands/imperatives, there is an extra syllable after the verb. For example, they have: wa-ka a-ta-ka-r? ? see the snake I have no idea what the ?ka? is doing after (what would be for us) ?ada?. But with Hamilton, he doesn?t differentiate between ?k? and ?g? so it may actually be a ?g? for us. He uses this quite a bit for commands but I?m not understanding why and so far I haven?t found any clues. From what I can tell, it isn?t a form of plural since he uses ?wi and he uses the singular 2nd person when the ?ka? is used. And he doesn?t always use it for the singular imperative form which is what adds to my confusion. I have 3 possibilities that spring to mind. First, the ?ka? might be a contracted form of ?gasun? which perhaps might be indicating that whatever the speaker wants done, they want it done now. Not sure about this one since you usually see ?gasun? at the beginning of a statement. Second is that the ending imperative ?re? may actually be a contraction of an older form ?kare/gare? and it has just stopped being used. That one is just a random guess LOL. Finally, I am wondering if the ?ka? is actually perhaps ?ke/ge? to refer to ?in like manner? (ithke) but since it is an imperative, the ?e? changes to an ?a?. If so, then the above sentence would perhaps say something like ?Look at the snake (in like manner).? And if so, I wonder if the context of the conversation would indicate just exactly what the ?like manner? means. What do you think? Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org ?? This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvkanth2010 at gmail.com Sat Feb 22 18:30:35 2014 From: dvkanth2010 at gmail.com (David Kaufman) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2014 12:30:35 -0600 Subject: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: That is interesting, Bryan! Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 3:22 PM, Bryan James Gordon wrote: > Digging through 19th century Omaha and Ponca texts I've found evidence for > a role for subcategorization, that is, some final verbs in some contexts > tend to follow conjugated verbs, while > others tend to follow "infinitives". Our resident syntacticians may have > more precise observations. Catherine? > On Feb 21, 2014 1:04 PM, "David Kaufman" wrote: > >> Rory, >> >> So it seems like both forms conjugated may have been the original method >> (pre-20th century), but, perhaps due to the increasing influence of >> English, it can now be just final verb? Interesting how these things come >> about. >> >> Dave >> >> David Kaufman >> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >> >> >> On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 1:28 PM, Rory Larson wrote: >> >>> Dave, >>> >>> >>> >>> What you describe for Kaw seems to be what my experience with Omaha has >>> been. As I recall, elicited statements usually have the first verb in >>> neutral form, but if you ask the speakers which way is better, giving both >>> options, they generally prefer the one with both verbs conjugated. I think >>> the latter is the way it normally appears in Dorsey (19th century). >>> >>> >>> >>> Of course, the real power of the old (?) system is that the first verb >>> can conjugate for different subjects and objects than the second one, as in >>> "I want you to give me the toy" = Toy-the me-you-give I-want. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Rory >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf >>> Of *David Kaufman >>> *Sent:* Friday, February 21, 2014 12:54 PM >>> >>> *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU >>> *Subject:* Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks Rory and Justin for the feedback. >>> >>> >>> >>> On another note, I've also been wondering about how serial verbs are >>> handled in Siouan in general. In the Kaw data, when two verbs come >>> together, the second verb always conjugates for person while the first >>> looks like it can either conjugate to match the second verb or it can stay >>> in the third person (neutral) form. I seem to recall that in Biloxi, >>> serial verbs *always* match, first and second verbs having the same person >>> conjugation. What do other Siouan languages do in regards to this? Are >>> there any hard and fast rules about this? >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks again! >>> >>> >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> >>> David Kaufman >>> >>> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >>> >>> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 5:15 PM, Rory Larson wrote: >>> >>> Thanks for the analysis, Justin. That makes much better sense than what >>> I had suggested. Very interesting that the Kaw (a)be particle, which >>> should be either cognate or closely related to the Omaha (a)bi particle, >>> can ablaut. I wasn't aware of that; it's good to know. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Rory >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf >>> Of *Mcbride, Justin >>> *Sent:* Thursday, February 20, 2014 3:00 PM >>> *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU >>> *Subject:* Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives >>> >>> >>> >>> For what it's worth, I believe that what appears to be a second token of >>> aba in the example, aba-daN is actually a different type altogether. In >>> this case, I think it's a case of the verb e(e), 'to say', plus the -(a)be >>> completive aspect marker plus the conjunction -(a)daN, 'and' >>> [e(e)-(a)be-(a)daN > aba-daN]. If so, then, that one really is just 's/he >>> said and,' and the first one is actually the subject marker. But that's not >>> to say that there aren't other examples of the quotative use of subject >>> markers in Ks, even within the same text. Here's an example of quotative >>> akHa: >>> >>> >>> >>> iccikkitaNga akha oo aNs^i waali miNkHe akHa. >>> >>> The Old Man said, "Oh, I'm getting fat." >>> >>> >>> >>> This case is much clearer to my way of thinking because there are two >>> verbal auxiliaries marking the same state (in this case, at rest) >>> back-to-back, one of which refers to 1st person (miNkHe, part of the >>> quotation), and one 3rd person (akHa, marks quotation). It's curious to >>> note that in the audio for this, the speaker laughs after miNkHe and then >>> almost catches her breath before saying akHa, which would indicate to me >>> that she felt it was essential for concluding the sentence. It's >>> interesting to me in that it seems that the entire quoted clause is acting >>> almost like a verb following the canonical pattern (subject) SUBJ (verb) >>> AUX, where SUBJ and AUX match shape in the continuative aspect, as in >>> s^idoz^iNga akHa ghaage akHa, 'the boy is crying.' >>> >>> >>> >>> -jtm >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 1:50 PM, Rory Larson wrote: >>> >>> Hi Dave, >>> >>> >>> >>> In Omaha and Ponca, the corresponding article is am?, where you have >>> ab?. As with Kaw, it tends to imply 'moving/absent'. But we also have >>> another particle, apparently pronounced the same way, coming at the end of >>> the sentence, that implies that the foregoing is hearsay rather than solid >>> fact. It can stand by itself, or it can be coupled with the 'allegedly' >>> particle bi to make the common ending for 3rd person hearsay action, >>> biama. >>> >>> >>> >>> I notice the accent changes to the first syllable in the second case of >>> your example. I wonder if that could be underlyingly a-aba in that case? >>> The first would be the ablauted version of 'he said it', followed by either >>> the Old Man's article ab? or a 'hearsay' particle as in OP. One problem >>> with that would be that the 'hearsay' am? in OP shouldn't cause a preceding >>> verb to ablaut. >>> >>> >>> >>> My $0.02. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Rory >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf >>> Of *David Kaufman >>> *Sent:* Thursday, February 20, 2014 1:30 PM >>> *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU >>> *Subject:* Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> >>> >>> I have a question re: a curious structure in Kaw, and whether anything >>> like it occurs in other Dhegihan or even non-Dhegihan Siouan languages. >>> The structure involves the articles akh? and ab?, used for subjects in Kaw >>> and usually translated 'the', the first being roughly for >>> 'standing/sitting' and the other for 'moving/absent'. However, in Kaw, >>> these subject articles also somehow seem to have become used as quotatives, >>> or 's/he said.' Here is an example sentence with gloss: >>> >>> >>> >>> *Ic?kitanga ab?, "Any?xtaga-?dan," ?ba-dan, nanst?be.* >>> >>> Old.Man said bite.me-then said-then kicked.him >>> >>> The Old Man said, "Then bite me," and he kicked him. >>> >>> >>> >>> So ab?, which is normally used for 'moving' subjects and is usually >>> translated 'the', is now being used for 's/he said.' >>> >>> >>> >>> Any thoughts on this, esp. from other Dhegihan perspectives, or other >>> Siouan languages that might have some similar usage? >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> David Kaufman >>> >>> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >>> >>> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU Sat Feb 22 19:15:16 2014 From: linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU (Bryan James Gordon) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2014 12:15:16 -0700 Subject: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I made a list somewhere of different verbs with different verb subcategorization behaviors to look into later, and I can't remember where it is, but here's an interesting example: Uxth?xchi gth? '?thathe w?ka?btha. "You promised to come back real soon and I want you to." *Gth? *"come back" is not conjugated. *'?thathe *"you promised" has agent conjugation. *W?ka?btha *has agent and dative conjugation, and the dative "to you" is raised from the subject of "promised". Not only does this example show both a conjugated and an unconjugated subordinate verb, but it also raises questions about the semantics of these constructions. It would seem that we cannot simply assume the syntactic complement of *g??tha *"desire" is also its semantic complement, because the semantic complement here is clearly "come back" and not "you promised". BJG 2014-02-22 11:30 GMT-07:00 David Kaufman : > That is interesting, Bryan! > > Dave > > David Kaufman > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > > On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 3:22 PM, Bryan James Gordon wrote: > >> Digging through 19th century Omaha and Ponca texts I've found evidence >> for a role for subcategorization, that is, some final verbs in some >> contexts tend to follow conjugated verbs, while >> others tend to follow "infinitives". Our resident syntacticians may have >> more precise observations. Catherine? >> On Feb 21, 2014 1:04 PM, "David Kaufman" wrote: >> >>> Rory, >>> >>> So it seems like both forms conjugated may have been the original method >>> (pre-20th century), but, perhaps due to the increasing influence of >>> English, it can now be just final verb? Interesting how these things come >>> about. >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> David Kaufman >>> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >>> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 1:28 PM, Rory Larson wrote: >>> >>>> Dave, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What you describe for Kaw seems to be what my experience with Omaha has >>>> been. As I recall, elicited statements usually have the first verb in >>>> neutral form, but if you ask the speakers which way is better, giving both >>>> options, they generally prefer the one with both verbs conjugated. I think >>>> the latter is the way it normally appears in Dorsey (19th century). >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Of course, the real power of the old (?) system is that the first verb >>>> can conjugate for different subjects and objects than the second one, as in >>>> ?I want you to give me the toy? = Toy-the me-you-give I-want. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Rory >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf >>>> Of *David Kaufman >>>> *Sent:* Friday, February 21, 2014 12:54 PM >>>> >>>> *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU >>>> *Subject:* Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks Rory and Justin for the feedback. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On another note, I've also been wondering about how serial verbs are >>>> handled in Siouan in general. In the Kaw data, when two verbs come >>>> together, the second verb always conjugates for person while the first >>>> looks like it can either conjugate to match the second verb or it can stay >>>> in the third person (neutral) form. I seem to recall that in Biloxi, >>>> serial verbs *always* match, first and second verbs having the same person >>>> conjugation. What do other Siouan languages do in regards to this? Are >>>> there any hard and fast rules about this? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks again! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Dave >>>> >>>> >>>> David Kaufman >>>> >>>> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >>>> >>>> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 5:15 PM, Rory Larson wrote: >>>> >>>> Thanks for the analysis, Justin. That makes much better sense than >>>> what I had suggested. Very interesting that the Kaw (a)be particle, which >>>> should be either cognate or closely related to the Omaha (a)bi particle, >>>> can ablaut. I wasn?t aware of that; it?s good to know. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Rory >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf >>>> Of *Mcbride, Justin >>>> *Sent:* Thursday, February 20, 2014 3:00 PM >>>> *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU >>>> *Subject:* Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> For what it's worth, I believe that what appears to be a second token >>>> of aba in the example, aba-daN is actually a different type altogether. In >>>> this case, I think it's a case of the verb e(e), 'to say', plus the -(a)be >>>> completive aspect marker plus the conjunction -(a)daN, 'and' >>>> [e(e)-(a)be-(a)daN > aba-daN]. If so, then, that one really is just 's/he >>>> said and,' and the first one is actually the subject marker. But that's not >>>> to say that there aren't other examples of the quotative use of subject >>>> markers in Ks, even within the same text. Here's an example of quotative >>>> akHa: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> iccikkitaNga akha oo aNs^i waali miNkHe akHa. >>>> >>>> The Old Man said, "Oh, I'm getting fat." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> This case is much clearer to my way of thinking because there are two >>>> verbal auxiliaries marking the same state (in this case, at rest) >>>> back-to-back, one of which refers to 1st person (miNkHe, part of the >>>> quotation), and one 3rd person (akHa, marks quotation). It's curious to >>>> note that in the audio for this, the speaker laughs after miNkHe and then >>>> almost catches her breath before saying akHa, which would indicate to me >>>> that she felt it was essential for concluding the sentence. It's >>>> interesting to me in that it seems that the entire quoted clause is acting >>>> almost like a verb following the canonical pattern (subject) SUBJ (verb) >>>> AUX, where SUBJ and AUX match shape in the continuative aspect, as in >>>> s^idoz^iNga akHa ghaage akHa, 'the boy is crying.' >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -jtm >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 1:50 PM, Rory Larson wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Dave, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> In Omaha and Ponca, the corresponding article is am?, where you have >>>> ab?. As with Kaw, it tends to imply ?moving/absent?. But we also have >>>> another particle, apparently pronounced the same way, coming at the end of >>>> the sentence, that implies that the foregoing is hearsay rather than solid >>>> fact. It can stand by itself, or it can be coupled with the ?allegedly? >>>> particle bi to make the common ending for 3rd person hearsay action, >>>> biama. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I notice the accent changes to the first syllable in the second case of >>>> your example. I wonder if that could be underlyingly a-aba in that case? >>>> The first would be the ablauted version of ?he said it?, followed by either >>>> the Old Man?s article ab? or a ?hearsay? particle as in OP. One problem >>>> with that would be that the ?hearsay? am? in OP shouldn?t cause a preceding >>>> verb to ablaut. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> My $0.02. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Rory >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf >>>> Of *David Kaufman >>>> *Sent:* Thursday, February 20, 2014 1:30 PM >>>> *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU >>>> *Subject:* Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I have a question re: a curious structure in Kaw, and whether anything >>>> like it occurs in other Dhegihan or even non-Dhegihan Siouan languages. >>>> The structure involves the articles akh? and ab?, used for subjects in Kaw >>>> and usually translated 'the', the first being roughly for >>>> 'standing/sitting' and the other for 'moving/absent'. However, in Kaw, >>>> these subject articles also somehow seem to have become used as quotatives, >>>> or 's/he said.' Here is an example sentence with gloss: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *Ic?kitanga ab?, ?Any?xtaga-?dan,? ?ba-dan, nanst?be.* >>>> >>>> Old.Man said bite.me-then said-then kicked.him >>>> >>>> The Old Man said, ?Then bite me,? and he kicked him. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> So ab?, which is normally used for 'moving' subjects and is usually >>>> translated 'the', is now being used for 's/he said.' >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Any thoughts on this, esp. from other Dhegihan perspectives, or other >>>> Siouan languages that might have some similar usage? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> David Kaufman >>>> >>>> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >>>> >>>> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> > -- *********************************************************** Bryan James Gordon, MA Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology University of Arizona *********************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU Sat Feb 22 19:15:59 2014 From: linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU (Bryan James Gordon) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2014 12:15:59 -0700 Subject: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: (Forgot the citation: Zh?be-ska to Wah?'?? August 1878, JD 1890:476.4) 2014-02-22 12:15 GMT-07:00 Bryan James Gordon : > I made a list somewhere of different verbs with different verb > subcategorization behaviors to look into later, and I can't remember where > it is, but here's an interesting example: > > Uxth?xchi gth? '?thathe w?ka?btha. "You promised to come back real soon > and I want you to." > > *Gth? *"come back" is not conjugated. *'?thathe *"you promised" has agent > conjugation. *W?ka?btha *has agent and dative conjugation, and the dative > "to you" is raised from the subject of "promised". Not only does this > example show both a conjugated and an unconjugated subordinate verb, but it > also raises questions about the semantics of these constructions. It would > seem that we cannot simply assume the syntactic complement of *g??tha *"desire" > is also its semantic complement, because the semantic complement here is > clearly "come back" and not "you promised". > > BJG > > > 2014-02-22 11:30 GMT-07:00 David Kaufman : > > That is interesting, Bryan! >> >> Dave >> >> David Kaufman >> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >> >> >> On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 3:22 PM, Bryan James Gordon wrote: >> >>> Digging through 19th century Omaha and Ponca texts I've found evidence >>> for a role for subcategorization, that is, some final verbs in some >>> contexts tend to follow conjugated verbs, while >>> others tend to follow "infinitives". Our resident syntacticians may have >>> more precise observations. Catherine? >>> On Feb 21, 2014 1:04 PM, "David Kaufman" wrote: >>> >>>> Rory, >>>> >>>> So it seems like both forms conjugated may have been the original >>>> method (pre-20th century), but, perhaps due to the increasing influence of >>>> English, it can now be just final verb? Interesting how these things come >>>> about. >>>> >>>> Dave >>>> >>>> David Kaufman >>>> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >>>> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 1:28 PM, Rory Larson wrote: >>>> >>>>> Dave, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> What you describe for Kaw seems to be what my experience with Omaha >>>>> has been. As I recall, elicited statements usually have the first verb in >>>>> neutral form, but if you ask the speakers which way is better, giving both >>>>> options, they generally prefer the one with both verbs conjugated. I think >>>>> the latter is the way it normally appears in Dorsey (19th century). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Of course, the real power of the old (?) system is that the first verb >>>>> can conjugate for different subjects and objects than the second one, as in >>>>> ?I want you to give me the toy? = Toy-the me-you-give I-want. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Rory >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On >>>>> Behalf Of *David Kaufman >>>>> *Sent:* Friday, February 21, 2014 12:54 PM >>>>> >>>>> *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU >>>>> *Subject:* Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks Rory and Justin for the feedback. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On another note, I've also been wondering about how serial verbs are >>>>> handled in Siouan in general. In the Kaw data, when two verbs come >>>>> together, the second verb always conjugates for person while the first >>>>> looks like it can either conjugate to match the second verb or it can stay >>>>> in the third person (neutral) form. I seem to recall that in Biloxi, >>>>> serial verbs *always* match, first and second verbs having the same person >>>>> conjugation. What do other Siouan languages do in regards to this? Are >>>>> there any hard and fast rules about this? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks again! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Dave >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> David Kaufman >>>>> >>>>> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >>>>> >>>>> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 5:15 PM, Rory Larson wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for the analysis, Justin. That makes much better sense than >>>>> what I had suggested. Very interesting that the Kaw (a)be particle, which >>>>> should be either cognate or closely related to the Omaha (a)bi particle, >>>>> can ablaut. I wasn?t aware of that; it?s good to know. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Rory >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On >>>>> Behalf Of *Mcbride, Justin >>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, February 20, 2014 3:00 PM >>>>> *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU >>>>> *Subject:* Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> For what it's worth, I believe that what appears to be a second token >>>>> of aba in the example, aba-daN is actually a different type altogether. In >>>>> this case, I think it's a case of the verb e(e), 'to say', plus the -(a)be >>>>> completive aspect marker plus the conjunction -(a)daN, 'and' >>>>> [e(e)-(a)be-(a)daN > aba-daN]. If so, then, that one really is just 's/he >>>>> said and,' and the first one is actually the subject marker. But that's not >>>>> to say that there aren't other examples of the quotative use of subject >>>>> markers in Ks, even within the same text. Here's an example of quotative >>>>> akHa: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> iccikkitaNga akha oo aNs^i waali miNkHe akHa. >>>>> >>>>> The Old Man said, "Oh, I'm getting fat." >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> This case is much clearer to my way of thinking because there are two >>>>> verbal auxiliaries marking the same state (in this case, at rest) >>>>> back-to-back, one of which refers to 1st person (miNkHe, part of the >>>>> quotation), and one 3rd person (akHa, marks quotation). It's curious to >>>>> note that in the audio for this, the speaker laughs after miNkHe and then >>>>> almost catches her breath before saying akHa, which would indicate to me >>>>> that she felt it was essential for concluding the sentence. It's >>>>> interesting to me in that it seems that the entire quoted clause is acting >>>>> almost like a verb following the canonical pattern (subject) SUBJ (verb) >>>>> AUX, where SUBJ and AUX match shape in the continuative aspect, as in >>>>> s^idoz^iNga akHa ghaage akHa, 'the boy is crying.' >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -jtm >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 1:50 PM, Rory Larson wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Dave, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> In Omaha and Ponca, the corresponding article is am?, where you have >>>>> ab?. As with Kaw, it tends to imply ?moving/absent?. But we also have >>>>> another particle, apparently pronounced the same way, coming at the end of >>>>> the sentence, that implies that the foregoing is hearsay rather than solid >>>>> fact. It can stand by itself, or it can be coupled with the ?allegedly? >>>>> particle bi to make the common ending for 3rd person hearsay action, >>>>> biama. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I notice the accent changes to the first syllable in the second case >>>>> of your example. I wonder if that could be underlyingly a-aba in that >>>>> case? The first would be the ablauted version of ?he said it?, followed by >>>>> either the Old Man?s article ab? or a ?hearsay? particle as in OP. One >>>>> problem with that would be that the ?hearsay? am? in OP shouldn?t cause a >>>>> preceding verb to ablaut. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> My $0.02. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Rory >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On >>>>> Behalf Of *David Kaufman >>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, February 20, 2014 1:30 PM >>>>> *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU >>>>> *Subject:* Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I have a question re: a curious structure in Kaw, and whether anything >>>>> like it occurs in other Dhegihan or even non-Dhegihan Siouan languages. >>>>> The structure involves the articles akh? and ab?, used for subjects in Kaw >>>>> and usually translated 'the', the first being roughly for >>>>> 'standing/sitting' and the other for 'moving/absent'. However, in Kaw, >>>>> these subject articles also somehow seem to have become used as quotatives, >>>>> or 's/he said.' Here is an example sentence with gloss: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Ic?kitanga ab?, ?Any?xtaga-?dan,? ?ba-dan, nanst?be.* >>>>> >>>>> Old.Man said bite.me-then said-then kicked.him >>>>> >>>>> The Old Man said, ?Then bite me,? and he kicked him. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> So ab?, which is normally used for 'moving' subjects and is usually >>>>> translated 'the', is now being used for 's/he said.' >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Any thoughts on this, esp. from other Dhegihan perspectives, or other >>>>> Siouan languages that might have some similar usage? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> David Kaufman >>>>> >>>>> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >>>>> >>>>> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >> > > > -- > *********************************************************** > Bryan James Gordon, MA > Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology > University of Arizona > *********************************************************** > -- *********************************************************** Bryan James Gordon, MA Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology University of Arizona *********************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Sat Feb 22 19:52:51 2014 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM (Sky Campbell) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2014 13:52:51 -0600 Subject: Aho! In-Reply-To: <003301cf2ffb$91533580$b3f9a080$@com> Message-ID: I found a strike against my "-ke/-ge" idea referring to "in like manner." In Hamilton's An Elementary Book of the Ioway Language, page 34-35, he has the following line: a-r?-fk?-mvn-y?-we-r? - do ye likewise (arethke manyiwi re) In that situation, he has the "ithke" before the verb and not after (which was my idea). After a quick scan of the rest of the book, I found examples of imperatives both with and without the "ka" in the hymns but I didn't immediately see anything that cleared up my confusion. And in keeping with the idea that perhaps this might be an older thing, I did a quick run through Merrill's First Ioway Reading Book and in his prayer (Lesson 12, page 13), he has the line: Nl-ce pe of-kon-kl-ra (N?nje pi uk'?ka re) - Give me a good heart. (I wonder with the possible nasal "f" that Merrill put in there if it is supposed to be a contraction of "uh?nk'?" to become "?nk'?" to say "give me".) So here we have another use of "ka" from a source other than Hamilton. I haven't gone through his hymns yet though. But no clues so far as I can tell. However I am noticing "me" being in a few of these but it may just be a coincidence. And on the off chance that this "ka" might be something that means plural (maybe an alternate way to end commands to command more than one person besides using -wi), I remembered a very odd term from Maximilian's word list where he had: guj-n - we alone To date, I have never seen the prefix "gu-" to mean "we" anywhere else. And it may not be connected in any way to the "ka/ga" we are talking about but I thought I'd put it out there. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2014 12:26 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! Going along with the "now" idea, I'm going to keep an eye out for the full form of "gasun" in these instances along with anything that will give some clues for this. I've been working a lot with Hamilton's material lately so I'll be sure to go over it thoroughly. As far as "ich'a re/it'a re", I wonder if these forms have something to do with the d/t changing to ch/j (IE te/che for buffalo and inde/inje for face) with some terms. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2014 8:52 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! H?nwe Pi: Jill says: I can't help but think that it's somehow ga- the locational prefix for something you can see, but not directly next to 1st and 2nd person (gaida 'over there (but not yonder)', gaigu, etc. - which could ultimately be related to gasuN also. It might clarify actual location, or be used metaphorically for 'now/soon' even by itself. Now applying that to the sentences, ?-ka-r? - say it, speak = ? re/ ? ga re (Say it now!) jw?-me-ka-r? - doctor me = sw?hi re/ sw?mi ga re (Doctor me now!) e-c?-ka-r? - speak thou, tell = i^cha re/ i^che ga re (Speak now!) ~~ [Jill, in the imperative, is it not ~ it^a re ?????] wo-ug-ka-r? - work thou = wa^?n ne/ wa^?n ga re (Work it now!) ru-meg-ka-r? - buy it = r?mi re/ r?mi ga re (Buy it now!) It does seem to apply in application above. Now, if that being so, why o? why does it not show up in any other texts, except Hamilton? I suppose it could have been a spoken form of the period (pre- 1850?s) that was used and then dropped by latter generations. It is noted in the dictionary, these applications that may produce a ?ga?: ga-... prf. just; exactly. **SEE: ga??n; ga?da. ga^? v.i. say as follows. Hink??i ga^?: ?G?^e ko?th^in hinnah?^e,? ? ki, My grandmother said as follows: ?He is the one we were talking about.? ga^?^a v.t. say as follows to another. They said as follows to him?, Ga^ig??e? ke. Hint?gwa ga^ih?^a: ??annegrad?nwe h?e ke,? ih? ke, I said as follows to my grandson: ?You will give me (your own one) your attention,? I told him. ga^?ge; g?ig? v.i. say that (in bad sence, slander, reproof). ?re iw?hu?e ?k??i ke Wan^s?ge ga^ige?e ke, Some people say that he does not know (anything, but in truth, the real facts support the opposite is true). H?da w?nsha x??itan gaw??gena wak?nda p??k??i war?dhe h?e ke, And that old man preacher rebuked them, saying the devil was going to get them for their sins. g? ir?yin; ga^?rayin v.t. think that; make up one?s mind. G? ih?dayin nu^? k?^o ha^?n ?k??i ke, although, I have made up my mind, I have not yet done it (the work). Sr? h?e israyin je, Do you think that you will go? **SEE: ir?yin; w?ge. g? ir? v.t. think that; think as follows. Tanh?dan grat?gre hinn?wi?ge p? nu^?re ga ih?re ke, If we were all going together, I think that it would be good. **SEE: ir?; ga?da. Jimm From: Greer, Jill Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2014 1:03 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! Hi, Sky, Interesting! This is my gut response, without any new examples unfortunately. I can't help but think that it's somehow ga- the locational prefix for something you can see, but not directly next to 1st and 2nd person (gaida 'over there (but not yonder)', gaigu, etc. - which could ultimately be related to gasuN also. It might clarify actual location, or be used metaphorically for 'now/soon' even by itself. Regarding your concern about it occurring after the verb, I can think of the common phrase Are gasuN khi 'It's okay/that's all right' , which looks like it could be in other parts of a sentence, too, besides the beginning? Your last idea seems possible also, about thge 'to be thus' which could be a result ablauting before the command? I don't know if the initial fricative was missed by Hamilton, or was deleted. (Sort of like 'Walk this way' :) ?) Is there any precedent in other Siouan languages for an emphatic form related to IOM kHe huN' ? I had the thought IF it were abbreviated to kHe, and occurred next to the -re 'command form', it could ablaut to kha , and make an emphatic command. (I have developed a personal English variant of that myself with my youngest son, Do X RIGHT NOW! (Sometimes followed by 'I'm not joking', just in case he's still not listening?) It's getting late, so forgive me if I'm stretching the limits of Siouan ablaut rules. Thanks for the examples, Sky. I know I've read through Hamilton but had forgotten that peculiarity. Help us out, friends. Iren, is there such a thing in Hochunk, too? Jill On Feb 21, 2014, at 11:24 PM, Sky Campbell wrote: I'll show a few more examples from Hamilton that may help. The example I gave (wa-ka a-ta-ka-r?) was from Hamilton's An Ioway Grammar, page 29. The following examples are from Hamilton's An Elementary Book of the Ioway Language. Perhaps these examples can help us find a common theme between them. I'll show imperatives with and without the extra "ka" syllable. FYI I'll also be using Hamilton's orthography. ?-ka-r? - say it, speak (page 21) I've seen that as simply "a re" where the verb "e" for "say" changes to "a" for the imperative. na-y?-r? - stand up (no "ka" here) (page 22) ya-w?-r? - sing thou (no "ka" here) (page 23) u-yu-r? - fill it (no "ka" here) (page 24) u-we-ra - do it (no "ka" here and is in plural form with the suffix -wi...might also be a typo since they went with "ra" rather than "r?" unless he went for a possible female form but I'm doubting that since everything else seems to be exclusively in the male form) (page 24) hu-we-r? - come here (no "ka" here and another plural form (page 24) ru-f?-r? - take it (no "ka" here) (page 24) ma-y?-r? - walk thou (no "ka" here (page 25) a-ta-r? - see thou (no "ka" here and it is the same thing as my original example but without the "ka") (page 25) jw?-me-ka-r? - doctor me (page 29) e-c?-ka-r? - speak thou, tell (page 30) wo-ug-ka-r? - work thou (page 30) ru-meg-ka-r? - buy it (page 30) me-na-we-r? - sit ye down (no "ka" here and is in plural form) (page 30) ke-kr?-we-ho - be ye gone (no "ka" here and is in plural form...also in the more polite imperative using "ho" instead of "re") (page 30) u-jkun-y?-r? - do not do it (no "ka" here) (page 31) wo-ku-we-r? - give them (no "ka" here and is in plural form) (page 31) Ok, this should do for now. Typing out this list has given me a few tentative ideas that I need to flesh out but I'll be grateful for any input :). Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 9:33 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! That is an interesting find, and all your explanations are plausible, especially the 2nd one. I do not recall coming across this before, and I can not find any thing like it in the IOM Dictionary. The imperative works just as you say, and I know of no deviation. The collected texts from Dorsey, and those from Julia Small, a monolingual speaker, did not have examples as you have found. The mystery needs be reviewed by a higher power, namely the Siouan List, to whom I am going to cc this reply for their input by the professional experts and those who may have some explanation for this occurrence, or able to leave as a Hamilton phenomena. From: Campbell, Sky Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 10:44 AM To: Jimm G. GoodTracks Subject: Aho! Hope all is well up your way J. Quick question about something I?ve noticed in Hamilton and Irvin?s books. After some of the commands/imperatives, there is an extra syllable after the verb. For example, they have: wa-ka a-ta-ka-r? ? see the snake I have no idea what the ?ka? is doing after (what would be for us) ?ada?. But with Hamilton, he doesn?t differentiate between ?k? and ?g? so it may actually be a ?g? for us. He uses this quite a bit for commands but I?m not understanding why and so far I haven?t found any clues. From what I can tell, it isn?t a form of plural since he uses ?wi and he uses the singular 2nd person when the ?ka? is used. And he doesn?t always use it for the singular imperative form which is what adds to my confusion. I have 3 possibilities that spring to mind. First, the ?ka? might be a contracted form of ?gasun? which perhaps might be indicating that whatever the speaker wants done, they want it done now. Not sure about this one since you usually see ?gasun? at the beginning of a statement. Second is that the ending imperative ?re? may actually be a contraction of an older form ?kare/gare? and it has just stopped being used. That one is just a random guess LOL. Finally, I am wondering if the ?ka? is actually perhaps ?ke/ge? to refer to ?in like manner? (ithke) but since it is an imperative, the ?e? changes to an ?a?. If so, then the above sentence would perhaps say something like ?Look at the snake (in like manner).? And if so, I wonder if the context of the conversation would indicate just exactly what the ?like manner? means. What do you think? Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org ?? This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 519 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Mon Feb 24 17:23:33 2014 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Greer, Jill) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 17:23:33 +0000 Subject: Aho! In-Reply-To: <585FE42896DD4ECA978404DD37D2D190@AsusLaptop> Message-ID: HaNwe Pi, Jimm, Good question, Jimm. I used to think of those as just alternative words for speaking, like to say versus to speak, to talk, etc., so you could choose either one according to context, but perhaps that?s not the case. If Dorsey has any cases that support Hamilton?s examples, that would really help! Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2014 8:52 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! H?nwe Pi: Jill says: I can't help but think that it's somehow ga- the locational prefix for something you can see, but not directly next to 1st and 2nd person (gaida 'over there (but not yonder)', gaigu, etc. - which could ultimately be related to gasuN also. It might clarify actual location, or be used metaphorically for 'now/soon' even by itself. Now applying that to the sentences, ?-ka-r? - say it, speak = ? re/ ? ga re (Say it now!) jw?-me-ka-r? - doctor me = sw?hi re/ sw?mi ga re (Doctor me now!) e-c?-ka-r? - speak thou, tell = i^cha re/ i^che ga re (Speak now!) ~~ [Jill, in the imperative, is it not ~ it^a re ?????] wo-ug-ka-r? - work thou = wa^?n ne/ wa^?n ga re (Work it now!) ru-meg-ka-r? - buy it = r?mi re/ r?mi ga re (Buy it now!) It does seem to apply in application above. Now, if that being so, why o? why does it not show up in any other texts, except Hamilton? I suppose it could have been a spoken form of the period (pre- 1850?s) that was used and then dropped by latter generations. It is noted in the dictionary, these applications that may produce a ?ga?: ga-... prf. just; exactly. **SEE: ga??n; ga?da. ga^? v.i. say as follows. Hink??i ga^?: ?G?^e ko?th^in hinnah?^e,? ? ki, My grandmother said as follows: ?He is the one we were talking about.? ga^?^a v.t. say as follows to another. They said as follows to him?, Ga^ig??e? ke. Hint?gwa ga^ih?^a: ??annegrad?nwe h?e ke,? ih? ke, I said as follows to my grandson: ?You will give me (your own one) your attention,? I told him. ga^?ge; g?ig? v.i. say that (in bad sence, slander, reproof). ?re iw?hu?e ?k??i ke Wan^s?ge ga^ige?e ke, Some people say that he does not know (anything, but in truth, the real facts support the opposite is true). H?da w?nsha x??itan gaw??gena wak?nda p??k??i war?dhe h?e ke, And that old man preacher rebuked them, saying the devil was going to get them for their sins. g? ir?yin; ga^?rayin v.t. think that; make up one?s mind. G? ih?dayin nu^? k?^o ha^?n ?k??i ke, although, I have made up my mind, I have not yet done it (the work). Sr? h?e israyin je, Do you think that you will go? **SEE: ir?yin; w?ge. g? ir? v.t. think that; think as follows. Tanh?dan grat?gre hinn?wi?ge p? nu^?re ga ih?re ke, If we were all going together, I think that it would be good. **SEE: ir?; ga?da. Jimm From: Greer, Jill Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2014 1:03 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! Hi, Sky, Interesting! This is my gut response, without any new examples unfortunately. I can't help but think that it's somehow ga- the locational prefix for something you can see, but not directly next to 1st and 2nd person (gaida 'over there (but not yonder)', gaigu, etc. - which could ultimately be related to gasuN also. It might clarify actual location, or be used metaphorically for 'now/soon' even by itself. Regarding your concern about it occurring after the verb, I can think of the common phrase Are gasuN khi 'It's okay/that's all right' , which looks like it could be in other parts of a sentence, too, besides the beginning? Your last idea seems possible also, about thge 'to be thus' which could be a result ablauting before the command? I don't know if the initial fricative was missed by Hamilton, or was deleted. (Sort of like 'Walk this way' :) ?) Is there any precedent in other Siouan languages for an emphatic form related to IOM kHe huN' ? I had the thought IF it were abbreviated to kHe, and occurred next to the -re 'command form', it could ablaut to kha , and make an emphatic command. (I have developed a personal English variant of that myself with my youngest son, Do X RIGHT NOW! (Sometimes followed by 'I'm not joking', just in case he's still not listening?) It's getting late, so forgive me if I'm stretching the limits of Siouan ablaut rules. Thanks for the examples, Sky. I know I've read through Hamilton but had forgotten that peculiarity. Help us out, friends. Iren, is there such a thing in Hochunk, too? Jill On Feb 21, 2014, at 11:24 PM, Sky Campbell > wrote: I'll show a few more examples from Hamilton that may help. The example I gave (wa-ka a-ta-ka-r?) was from Hamilton's An Ioway Grammar, page 29. The following examples are from Hamilton's An Elementary Book of the Ioway Language. Perhaps these examples can help us find a common theme between them. I'll show imperatives with and without the extra "ka" syllable. FYI I'll also be using Hamilton's orthography. ?-ka-r? - say it, speak (page 21) I've seen that as simply "a re" where the verb "e" for "say" changes to "a" for the imperative. na-y?-r? - stand up (no "ka" here) (page 22) ya-w?-r? - sing thou (no "ka" here) (page 23) u-yu-r? - fill it (no "ka" here) (page 24) u-we-ra - do it (no "ka" here and is in plural form with the suffix -wi...might also be a typo since they went with "ra" rather than "r?" unless he went for a possible female form but I'm doubting that since everything else seems to be exclusively in the male form) (page 24) hu-we-r? - come here (no "ka" here and another plural form (page 24) ru-f?-r? - take it (no "ka" here) (page 24) ma-y?-r? - walk thou (no "ka" here (page 25) a-ta-r? - see thou (no "ka" here and it is the same thing as my original example but without the "ka") (page 25) jw?-me-ka-r? - doctor me (page 29) e-c?-ka-r? - speak thou, tell (page 30) wo-ug-ka-r? - work thou (page 30) ru-meg-ka-r? - buy it (page 30) me-na-we-r? - sit ye down (no "ka" here and is in plural form) (page 30) ke-kr?-we-ho - be ye gone (no "ka" here and is in plural form...also in the more polite imperative using "ho" instead of "re") (page 30) u-jkun-y?-r? - do not do it (no "ka" here) (page 31) wo-ku-we-r? - give them (no "ka" here and is in plural form) (page 31) Ok, this should do for now. Typing out this list has given me a few tentative ideas that I need to flesh out but I'll be grateful for any input :). Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 9:33 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! That is an interesting find, and all your explanations are plausible, especially the 2nd one. I do not recall coming across this before, and I can not find any thing like it in the IOM Dictionary. The imperative works just as you say, and I know of no deviation. The collected texts from Dorsey, and those from Julia Small, a monolingual speaker, did not have examples as you have found. The mystery needs be reviewed by a higher power, namely the Siouan List, to whom I am going to cc this reply for their input by the professional experts and those who may have some explanation for this occurrence, or able to leave as a Hamilton phenomena. From: Campbell, Sky Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 10:44 AM To: Jimm G. GoodTracks Subject: Aho! Hope all is well up your way ?. Quick question about something I?ve noticed in Hamilton and Irvin?s books. After some of the commands/imperatives, there is an extra syllable after the verb. For example, they have: wa-ka a-ta-ka-r? ? see the snake I have no idea what the ?ka? is doing after (what would be for us) ?ada?. But with Hamilton, he doesn?t differentiate between ?k? and ?g? so it may actually be a ?g? for us. He uses this quite a bit for commands but I?m not understanding why and so far I haven?t found any clues. From what I can tell, it isn?t a form of plural since he uses ?wi and he uses the singular 2nd person when the ?ka? is used. And he doesn?t always use it for the singular imperative form which is what adds to my confusion. I have 3 possibilities that spring to mind. First, the ?ka? might be a contracted form of ?gasun? which perhaps might be indicating that whatever the speaker wants done, they want it done now. Not sure about this one since you usually see ?gasun? at the beginning of a statement. Second is that the ending imperative ?re? may actually be a contraction of an older form ?kare/gare? and it has just stopped being used. That one is just a random guess LOL. Finally, I am wondering if the ?ka? is actually perhaps ?ke/ge? to refer to ?in like manner? (ithke) but since it is an imperative, the ?e? changes to an ?a?. If so, then the above sentence would perhaps say something like ?Look at the snake (in like manner).? And if so, I wonder if the context of the conversation would indicate just exactly what the ?like manner? means. What do you think? Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org ?? This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG Mon Feb 24 18:07:11 2014 From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 12:07:11 -0600 Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Aho! In-Reply-To: <000601cf3007$ac3f2f00$04bd8d00$@com> Message-ID: I may have found a clue for ?ka.? Dorsey has the term: e-wa-na-ha ? the speaker; the one speaking Then he has the term: e wa-ka-na-ha ? the one who is meant; the person addressed I?m not sure how (or even if) this is related to the ?ka? I am asking about but I?m trying to look at it in different ways to see if it fits somehow. Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2014 1:53 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Aho! Importance: Low I found a strike against my "-ke/-ge" idea referring to "in like manner." In Hamilton's An Elementary Book of the Ioway Language, page 34-35, he has the following line: a-r?-fk?-mvn-y?-we-r? - do ye likewise (arethke manyiwi re) In that situation, he has the "ithke" before the verb and not after (which was my idea). After a quick scan of the rest of the book, I found examples of imperatives both with and without the "ka" in the hymns but I didn't immediately see anything that cleared up my confusion. And in keeping with the idea that perhaps this might be an older thing, I did a quick run through Merrill's First Ioway Reading Book and in his prayer (Lesson 12, page 13), he has the line: Nl-ce pe of-kon-kl-ra (N?nje pi uk'?ka re) - Give me a good heart. (I wonder with the possible nasal "f" that Merrill put in there if it is supposed to be a contraction of "uh?nk'?" to become "?nk'?" to say "give me".) So here we have another use of "ka" from a source other than Hamilton. I haven't gone through his hymns yet though. But no clues so far as I can tell. However I am noticing "me" being in a few of these but it may just be a coincidence. And on the off chance that this "ka" might be something that means plural (maybe an alternate way to end commands to command more than one person besides using -wi), I remembered a very odd term from Maximilian's word list where he had: guj-n - we alone To date, I have never seen the prefix "gu-" to mean "we" anywhere else. And it may not be connected in any way to the "ka/ga" we are talking about but I thought I'd put it out there. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2014 12:26 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! Going along with the "now" idea, I'm going to keep an eye out for the full form of "gasun" in these instances along with anything that will give some clues for this. I've been working a lot with Hamilton's material lately so I'll be sure to go over it thoroughly. As far as "ich'a re/it'a re", I wonder if these forms have something to do with the d/t changing to ch/j (IE te/che for buffalo and inde/inje for face) with some terms. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2014 8:52 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! H?nwe Pi: Jill says: I can't help but think that it's somehow ga- the locational prefix for something you can see, but not directly next to 1st and 2nd person (gaida 'over there (but not yonder)', gaigu, etc. - which could ultimately be related to gasuN also. It might clarify actual location, or be used metaphorically for 'now/soon' even by itself. Now applying that to the sentences, ?-ka-r? - say it, speak = ? re/ ? ga re (Say it now!) jw?-me-ka-r? - doctor me = sw?hi re/ sw?mi ga re (Doctor me now!) e-c?-ka-r? - speak thou, tell = i^cha re/ i^che ga re (Speak now!) ~~ [Jill, in the imperative, is it not ~ it^a re ?????] wo-ug-ka-r? - work thou = wa^?n ne/ wa^?n ga re (Work it now!) ru-meg-ka-r? - buy it = r?mi re/ r?mi ga re (Buy it now!) It does seem to apply in application above. Now, if that being so, why o? why does it not show up in any other texts, except Hamilton? I suppose it could have been a spoken form of the period (pre- 1850?s) that was used and then dropped by latter generations. It is noted in the dictionary, these applications that may produce a ?ga?: ga-... prf. just; exactly. **SEE: ga??n; ga?da. ga^? v.i. say as follows. Hink??i ga^?: ?G?^e ko?th^in hinnah?^e,? ? ki, My grandmother said as follows: ?He is the one we were talking about.? ga^?^a v.t. say as follows to another. They said as follows to him?, Ga^ig??e? ke. Hint?gwa ga^ih?^a: ??annegrad?nwe h?e ke,? ih? ke, I said as follows to my grandson: ?You will give me (your own one) your attention,? I told him. ga^?ge; g?ig? v.i. say that (in bad sence, slander, reproof). ?re iw?hu?e ?k??i ke Wan^s?ge ga^ige?e ke, Some people say that he does not know (anything, but in truth, the real facts support the opposite is true). H?da w?nsha x??itan gaw??gena wak?nda p??k??i war?dhe h?e ke, And that old man preacher rebuked them, saying the devil was going to get them for their sins. g? ir?yin; ga^?rayin v.t. think that; make up one?s mind. G? ih?dayin nu^? k?^o ha^?n ?k??i ke, although, I have made up my mind, I have not yet done it (the work). Sr? h?e israyin je, Do you think that you will go? **SEE: ir?yin; w?ge. g? ir? v.t. think that; think as follows. Tanh?dan grat?gre hinn?wi?ge p? nu^?re ga ih?re ke, If we were all going together, I think that it would be good. **SEE: ir?; ga?da. Jimm From: Greer, Jill Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2014 1:03 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! Hi, Sky, Interesting! This is my gut response, without any new examples unfortunately. I can't help but think that it's somehow ga- the locational prefix for something you can see, but not directly next to 1st and 2nd person (gaida 'over there (but not yonder)', gaigu, etc. - which could ultimately be related to gasuN also. It might clarify actual location, or be used metaphorically for 'now/soon' even by itself. Regarding your concern about it occurring after the verb, I can think of the common phrase Are gasuN khi 'It's okay/that's all right' , which looks like it could be in other parts of a sentence, too, besides the beginning? Your last idea seems possible also, about thge 'to be thus' which could be a result ablauting before the command? I don't know if the initial fricative was missed by Hamilton, or was deleted. (Sort of like 'Walk this way' :) ?) Is there any precedent in other Siouan languages for an emphatic form related to IOM kHe huN' ? I had the thought IF it were abbreviated to kHe, and occurred next to the -re 'command form', it could ablaut to kha , and make an emphatic command. (I have developed a personal English variant of that myself with my youngest son, Do X RIGHT NOW! (Sometimes followed by 'I'm not joking', just in case he's still not listening?) It's getting late, so forgive me if I'm stretching the limits of Siouan ablaut rules. Thanks for the examples, Sky. I know I've read through Hamilton but had forgotten that peculiarity. Help us out, friends. Iren, is there such a thing in Hochunk, too? Jill On Feb 21, 2014, at 11:24 PM, Sky Campbell > wrote: I'll show a few more examples from Hamilton that may help. The example I gave (wa-ka a-ta-ka-r?) was from Hamilton's An Ioway Grammar, page 29. The following examples are from Hamilton's An Elementary Book of the Ioway Language. Perhaps these examples can help us find a common theme between them. I'll show imperatives with and without the extra "ka" syllable. FYI I'll also be using Hamilton's orthography. ?-ka-r? - say it, speak (page 21) I've seen that as simply "a re" where the verb "e" for "say" changes to "a" for the imperative. na-y?-r? - stand up (no "ka" here) (page 22) ya-w?-r? - sing thou (no "ka" here) (page 23) u-yu-r? - fill it (no "ka" here) (page 24) u-we-ra - do it (no "ka" here and is in plural form with the suffix -wi...might also be a typo since they went with "ra" rather than "r?" unless he went for a possible female form but I'm doubting that since everything else seems to be exclusively in the male form) (page 24) hu-we-r? - come here (no "ka" here and another plural form (page 24) ru-f?-r? - take it (no "ka" here) (page 24) ma-y?-r? - walk thou (no "ka" here (page 25) a-ta-r? - see thou (no "ka" here and it is the same thing as my original example but without the "ka") (page 25) jw?-me-ka-r? - doctor me (page 29) e-c?-ka-r? - speak thou, tell (page 30) wo-ug-ka-r? - work thou (page 30) ru-meg-ka-r? - buy it (page 30) me-na-we-r? - sit ye down (no "ka" here and is in plural form) (page 30) ke-kr?-we-ho - be ye gone (no "ka" here and is in plural form...also in the more polite imperative using "ho" instead of "re") (page 30) u-jkun-y?-r? - do not do it (no "ka" here) (page 31) wo-ku-we-r? - give them (no "ka" here and is in plural form) (page 31) Ok, this should do for now. Typing out this list has given me a few tentative ideas that I need to flesh out but I'll be grateful for any input :). Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 9:33 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! That is an interesting find, and all your explanations are plausible, especially the 2nd one. I do not recall coming across this before, and I can not find any thing like it in the IOM Dictionary. The imperative works just as you say, and I know of no deviation. The collected texts from Dorsey, and those from Julia Small, a monolingual speaker, did not have examples as you have found. The mystery needs be reviewed by a higher power, namely the Siouan List, to whom I am going to cc this reply for their input by the professional experts and those who may have some explanation for this occurrence, or able to leave as a Hamilton phenomena. From: Campbell, Sky Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 10:44 AM To: Jimm G. GoodTracks Subject: Aho! Hope all is well up your way ?. Quick question about something I?ve noticed in Hamilton and Irvin?s books. After some of the commands/imperatives, there is an extra syllable after the verb. For example, they have: wa-ka a-ta-ka-r? ? see the snake I have no idea what the ?ka? is doing after (what would be for us) ?ada?. But with Hamilton, he doesn?t differentiate between ?k? and ?g? so it may actually be a ?g? for us. He uses this quite a bit for commands but I?m not understanding why and so far I haven?t found any clues. From what I can tell, it isn?t a form of plural since he uses ?wi and he uses the singular 2nd person when the ?ka? is used. And he doesn?t always use it for the singular imperative form which is what adds to my confusion. I have 3 possibilities that spring to mind. First, the ?ka? might be a contracted form of ?gasun? which perhaps might be indicating that whatever the speaker wants done, they want it done now. Not sure about this one since you usually see ?gasun? at the beginning of a statement. Second is that the ending imperative ?re? may actually be a contraction of an older form ?kare/gare? and it has just stopped being used. That one is just a random guess LOL. Finally, I am wondering if the ?ka? is actually perhaps ?ke/ge? to refer to ?in like manner? (ithke) but since it is an imperative, the ?e? changes to an ?a?. If so, then the above sentence would perhaps say something like ?Look at the snake (in like manner).? And if so, I wonder if the context of the conversation would indicate just exactly what the ?like manner? means. What do you think? Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org ?? This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 289 bytes Desc: image003.png URL: From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Mon Feb 24 18:22:26 2014 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Greer, Jill) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 18:22:26 +0000 Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Aho! In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E436C33F3C3EE7@Server6-EX.omtribe.net> Message-ID: Great example!!! From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 12:07 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Aho! I may have found a clue for ?ka.? Dorsey has the term: e-wa-na-ha ? the speaker; the one speaking Then he has the term: e wa-ka-na-ha ? the one who is meant; the person addressed I?m not sure how (or even if) this is related to the ?ka? I am asking about but I?m trying to look at it in different ways to see if it fits somehow. Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2014 1:53 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Aho! Importance: Low I found a strike against my "-ke/-ge" idea referring to "in like manner." In Hamilton's An Elementary Book of the Ioway Language, page 34-35, he has the following line: a-r?-fk?-mvn-y?-we-r? - do ye likewise (arethke manyiwi re) In that situation, he has the "ithke" before the verb and not after (which was my idea). After a quick scan of the rest of the book, I found examples of imperatives both with and without the "ka" in the hymns but I didn't immediately see anything that cleared up my confusion. And in keeping with the idea that perhaps this might be an older thing, I did a quick run through Merrill's First Ioway Reading Book and in his prayer (Lesson 12, page 13), he has the line: Nl-ce pe of-kon-kl-ra (N?nje pi uk'?ka re) - Give me a good heart. (I wonder with the possible nasal "f" that Merrill put in there if it is supposed to be a contraction of "uh?nk'?" to become "?nk'?" to say "give me".) So here we have another use of "ka" from a source other than Hamilton. I haven't gone through his hymns yet though. But no clues so far as I can tell. However I am noticing "me" being in a few of these but it may just be a coincidence. And on the off chance that this "ka" might be something that means plural (maybe an alternate way to end commands to command more than one person besides using -wi), I remembered a very odd term from Maximilian's word list where he had: guj-n - we alone To date, I have never seen the prefix "gu-" to mean "we" anywhere else. And it may not be connected in any way to the "ka/ga" we are talking about but I thought I'd put it out there. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2014 12:26 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! Going along with the "now" idea, I'm going to keep an eye out for the full form of "gasun" in these instances along with anything that will give some clues for this. I've been working a lot with Hamilton's material lately so I'll be sure to go over it thoroughly. As far as "ich'a re/it'a re", I wonder if these forms have something to do with the d/t changing to ch/j (IE te/che for buffalo and inde/inje for face) with some terms. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2014 8:52 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! H?nwe Pi: Jill says: I can't help but think that it's somehow ga- the locational prefix for something you can see, but not directly next to 1st and 2nd person (gaida 'over there (but not yonder)', gaigu, etc. - which could ultimately be related to gasuN also. It might clarify actual location, or be used metaphorically for 'now/soon' even by itself. Now applying that to the sentences, ?-ka-r? - say it, speak = ? re/ ? ga re (Say it now!) jw?-me-ka-r? - doctor me = sw?hi re/ sw?mi ga re (Doctor me now!) e-c?-ka-r? - speak thou, tell = i^cha re/ i^che ga re (Speak now!) ~~ [Jill, in the imperative, is it not ~ it^a re ?????] wo-ug-ka-r? - work thou = wa^?n ne/ wa^?n ga re (Work it now!) ru-meg-ka-r? - buy it = r?mi re/ r?mi ga re (Buy it now!) It does seem to apply in application above. Now, if that being so, why o? why does it not show up in any other texts, except Hamilton? I suppose it could have been a spoken form of the period (pre- 1850?s) that was used and then dropped by latter generations. It is noted in the dictionary, these applications that may produce a ?ga?: ga-... prf. just; exactly. **SEE: ga??n; ga?da. ga^? v.i. say as follows. Hink??i ga^?: ?G?^e ko?th^in hinnah?^e,? ? ki, My grandmother said as follows: ?He is the one we were talking about.? ga^?^a v.t. say as follows to another. They said as follows to him?, Ga^ig??e? ke. Hint?gwa ga^ih?^a: ??annegrad?nwe h?e ke,? ih? ke, I said as follows to my grandson: ?You will give me (your own one) your attention,? I told him. ga^?ge; g?ig? v.i. say that (in bad sence, slander, reproof). ?re iw?hu?e ?k??i ke Wan^s?ge ga^ige?e ke, Some people say that he does not know (anything, but in truth, the real facts support the opposite is true). H?da w?nsha x??itan gaw??gena wak?nda p??k??i war?dhe h?e ke, And that old man preacher rebuked them, saying the devil was going to get them for their sins. g? ir?yin; ga^?rayin v.t. think that; make up one?s mind. G? ih?dayin nu^? k?^o ha^?n ?k??i ke, although, I have made up my mind, I have not yet done it (the work). Sr? h?e israyin je, Do you think that you will go? **SEE: ir?yin; w?ge. g? ir? v.t. think that; think as follows. Tanh?dan grat?gre hinn?wi?ge p? nu^?re ga ih?re ke, If we were all going together, I think that it would be good. **SEE: ir?; ga?da. Jimm From: Greer, Jill Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2014 1:03 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! Hi, Sky, Interesting! This is my gut response, without any new examples unfortunately. I can't help but think that it's somehow ga- the locational prefix for something you can see, but not directly next to 1st and 2nd person (gaida 'over there (but not yonder)', gaigu, etc. - which could ultimately be related to gasuN also. It might clarify actual location, or be used metaphorically for 'now/soon' even by itself. Regarding your concern about it occurring after the verb, I can think of the common phrase Are gasuN khi 'It's okay/that's all right' , which looks like it could be in other parts of a sentence, too, besides the beginning? Your last idea seems possible also, about thge 'to be thus' which could be a result ablauting before the command? I don't know if the initial fricative was missed by Hamilton, or was deleted. (Sort of like 'Walk this way' :) ?) Is there any precedent in other Siouan languages for an emphatic form related to IOM kHe huN' ? I had the thought IF it were abbreviated to kHe, and occurred next to the -re 'command form', it could ablaut to kha , and make an emphatic command. (I have developed a personal English variant of that myself with my youngest son, Do X RIGHT NOW! (Sometimes followed by 'I'm not joking', just in case he's still not listening?) It's getting late, so forgive me if I'm stretching the limits of Siouan ablaut rules. Thanks for the examples, Sky. I know I've read through Hamilton but had forgotten that peculiarity. Help us out, friends. Iren, is there such a thing in Hochunk, too? Jill On Feb 21, 2014, at 11:24 PM, Sky Campbell > wrote: I'll show a few more examples from Hamilton that may help. The example I gave (wa-ka a-ta-ka-r?) was from Hamilton's An Ioway Grammar, page 29. The following examples are from Hamilton's An Elementary Book of the Ioway Language. Perhaps these examples can help us find a common theme between them. I'll show imperatives with and without the extra "ka" syllable. FYI I'll also be using Hamilton's orthography. ?-ka-r? - say it, speak (page 21) I've seen that as simply "a re" where the verb "e" for "say" changes to "a" for the imperative. na-y?-r? - stand up (no "ka" here) (page 22) ya-w?-r? - sing thou (no "ka" here) (page 23) u-yu-r? - fill it (no "ka" here) (page 24) u-we-ra - do it (no "ka" here and is in plural form with the suffix -wi...might also be a typo since they went with "ra" rather than "r?" unless he went for a possible female form but I'm doubting that since everything else seems to be exclusively in the male form) (page 24) hu-we-r? - come here (no "ka" here and another plural form (page 24) ru-f?-r? - take it (no "ka" here) (page 24) ma-y?-r? - walk thou (no "ka" here (page 25) a-ta-r? - see thou (no "ka" here and it is the same thing as my original example but without the "ka") (page 25) jw?-me-ka-r? - doctor me (page 29) e-c?-ka-r? - speak thou, tell (page 30) wo-ug-ka-r? - work thou (page 30) ru-meg-ka-r? - buy it (page 30) me-na-we-r? - sit ye down (no "ka" here and is in plural form) (page 30) ke-kr?-we-ho - be ye gone (no "ka" here and is in plural form...also in the more polite imperative using "ho" instead of "re") (page 30) u-jkun-y?-r? - do not do it (no "ka" here) (page 31) wo-ku-we-r? - give them (no "ka" here and is in plural form) (page 31) Ok, this should do for now. Typing out this list has given me a few tentative ideas that I need to flesh out but I'll be grateful for any input :). Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 9:33 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! That is an interesting find, and all your explanations are plausible, especially the 2nd one. I do not recall coming across this before, and I can not find any thing like it in the IOM Dictionary. The imperative works just as you say, and I know of no deviation. The collected texts from Dorsey, and those from Julia Small, a monolingual speaker, did not have examples as you have found. The mystery needs be reviewed by a higher power, namely the Siouan List, to whom I am going to cc this reply for their input by the professional experts and those who may have some explanation for this occurrence, or able to leave as a Hamilton phenomena. From: Campbell, Sky Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 10:44 AM To: Jimm G. GoodTracks Subject: Aho! Hope all is well up your way ?. Quick question about something I?ve noticed in Hamilton and Irvin?s books. After some of the commands/imperatives, there is an extra syllable after the verb. For example, they have: wa-ka a-ta-ka-r? ? see the snake I have no idea what the ?ka? is doing after (what would be for us) ?ada?. But with Hamilton, he doesn?t differentiate between ?k? and ?g? so it may actually be a ?g? for us. He uses this quite a bit for commands but I?m not understanding why and so far I haven?t found any clues. From what I can tell, it isn?t a form of plural since he uses ?wi and he uses the singular 2nd person when the ?ka? is used. And he doesn?t always use it for the singular imperative form which is what adds to my confusion. I have 3 possibilities that spring to mind. First, the ?ka? might be a contracted form of ?gasun? which perhaps might be indicating that whatever the speaker wants done, they want it done now. Not sure about this one since you usually see ?gasun? at the beginning of a statement. Second is that the ending imperative ?re? may actually be a contraction of an older form ?kare/gare? and it has just stopped being used. That one is just a random guess LOL. Finally, I am wondering if the ?ka? is actually perhaps ?ke/ge? to refer to ?in like manner? (ithke) but since it is an imperative, the ?e? changes to an ?a?. If so, then the above sentence would perhaps say something like ?Look at the snake (in like manner).? And if so, I wonder if the context of the conversation would indicate just exactly what the ?like manner? means. What do you think? Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org ?? This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). ?? This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 289 bytes Desc: image003.png URL: From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Mon Feb 24 20:01:02 2014 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 14:01:02 -0600 Subject: Sad news Message-ID: Dear all, It is with much sadness that I let you know that Dr. Robert Rankin has passed away. I don't have any further details at this time, but I can pass on more info once I know more. The Kaw Nation was just contacted within the last couple of hours about his passing. I am extremely grateful that I got to visit Bob a couple of weeks ago. Sincerely, Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG Mon Feb 24 20:04:27 2014 From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 14:04:27 -0600 Subject: Sad news In-Reply-To: Message-ID: That is very sad news. I got to meet him while he was here in northern Oklahoma a year or so ago and took him out for Chinese food and had a great time. He called me "a scholar and a gentleman" which is something no one has ever said to me before. Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of David Kaufman Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:01 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Sad news Dear all, It is with much sadness that I let you know that Dr. Robert Rankin has passed away. I don't have any further details at this time, but I can pass on more info once I know more. The Kaw Nation was just contacted within the last couple of hours about his passing. I am extremely grateful that I got to visit Bob a couple of weeks ago. Sincerely, Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpboyle at LANGUAGECONSERVANCY.ORG Mon Feb 24 20:08:18 2014 From: jpboyle at LANGUAGECONSERVANCY.ORG (John P. Boyle) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 14:08:18 -0600 Subject: Sad news In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks Dave. What a loss. Bob was such a tremendous figure in the field. He was always generous with his time and comments especially to us younger scholars. He is the reason for who I am today. I'm heartbroken. John Boyle From: David Kaufman Reply-To: Siouan Linguistics Date: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:01 PM To: Subject: Sad news Dear all, It is with much sadness that I let you know that Dr. Robert Rankin has passed away. I don't have any further details at this time, but I can pass on more info once I know more. The Kaw Nation was just contacted within the last couple of hours about his passing. I am extremely grateful that I got to visit Bob a couple of weeks ago. Sincerely, Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From CaRudin1 at WSC.EDU Mon Feb 24 20:13:41 2014 From: CaRudin1 at WSC.EDU (Catherine Rudin) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 14:13:41 -0600 Subject: Sad news In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Terribly sorry to hear this. Bob was a role model and mentor; he knew more about Dhegiha languages than anyone else on earth, and was always generously willing to help out those of us with less encyclopedic knowledge. I've asked him many a dumb question and gotten undeservedly helpful replies. And just an all around great guy too. Siouan conferences won't be the same without him. My condolences to his family, students, and the many friends who will miss him. Catherine >>> David Kaufman 2/24/2014 2:01 PM >>> Dear all, It is with much sadness that I let you know that Dr. Robert Rankin has passed away. I don't have any further details at this time, but I can pass on more info once I know more. The Kaw Nation was just contacted within the last couple of hours about his passing. I am extremely grateful that I got to visit Bob a couple of weeks ago. Sincerely, Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmrichar at LIVE.UNC.EDU Mon Feb 24 20:13:40 2014 From: mmrichar at LIVE.UNC.EDU (mmrichar) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 20:13:40 +0000 Subject: Sad news In-Reply-To: Message-ID: To All: I only met Bob one time at the Siouan Conference two years ago, but he had such an influence on me and obviously the field. I'm floored right now. Marty Richardson ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics on behalf of John P. Boyle Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 3:08 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Sad news Thanks Dave. What a loss. Bob was such a tremendous figure in the field. He was always generous with his time and comments especially to us younger scholars. He is the reason for who I am today. I'm heartbroken. John Boyle From: David Kaufman > Reply-To: Siouan Linguistics > Date: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:01 PM To: > Subject: Sad news Dear all, It is with much sadness that I let you know that Dr. Robert Rankin has passed away. I don't have any further details at this time, but I can pass on more info once I know more. The Kaw Nation was just contacted within the last couple of hours about his passing. I am extremely grateful that I got to visit Bob a couple of weeks ago. Sincerely, Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU Mon Feb 24 20:14:25 2014 From: jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU (Mcbride, Justin) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 14:14:25 -0600 Subject: Sad news In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I am crushed. I am so sorry to hear this. He was an excellent mentor, a joy to work with, and a dear friend. -jtm On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 2:08 PM, John P. Boyle < jpboyle at languageconservancy.org> wrote: > Thanks Dave. > > What a loss. Bob was such a tremendous figure in the field. He was > always generous with his time and comments especially to us younger > scholars. He is the reason for who I am today. I'm heartbroken. > > John Boyle > > From: David Kaufman > Reply-To: Siouan Linguistics > Date: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:01 PM > > To: > Subject: Sad news > > Dear all, > > It is with much sadness that I let you know that Dr. Robert Rankin has > passed away. I don't have any further details at this time, but I can pass > on more info once I know more. The Kaw Nation was just contacted within > the last couple of hours about his passing. > > I am extremely grateful that I got to visit Bob a couple of weeks ago. > > Sincerely, > > Dave > > David Kaufman > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From STrechter at CSUCHICO.EDU Mon Feb 24 20:19:13 2014 From: STrechter at CSUCHICO.EDU (Trechter, Sara) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 12:19:13 -0800 Subject: Sad news In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is truly sad. I will miss his thoughtfulness and his great BS detection. Sent from my iPhone On Feb 24, 2014, at 12:16 PM, "Mcbride, Justin" > wrote: I am crushed. I am so sorry to hear this. He was an excellent mentor, a joy to work with, and a dear friend. -jtm On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 2:08 PM, John P. Boyle > wrote: Thanks Dave. What a loss. Bob was such a tremendous figure in the field. He was always generous with his time and comments especially to us younger scholars. He is the reason for who I am today. I'm heartbroken. John Boyle From: David Kaufman > Reply-To: Siouan Linguistics > Date: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:01 PM To: > Subject: Sad news Dear all, It is with much sadness that I let you know that Dr. Robert Rankin has passed away. I don't have any further details at this time, but I can pass on more info once I know more. The Kaw Nation was just contacted within the last couple of hours about his passing. I am extremely grateful that I got to visit Bob a couple of weeks ago. Sincerely, Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ardise at HAWAII.EDU Mon Feb 24 20:30:28 2014 From: ardise at HAWAII.EDU (Ardis Eschenberg) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 15:30:28 -0500 Subject: Sad news In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This an unfathomable loss. Bob defined kindness, intelligence, and scholarliness - all with a dose of good humor and practical good sense. Respectfully, Ardis Ardis Eschenberg, Ph.D. Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs Windward Community College (808) 235-7443 ardise at hawaii.edu On Feb 24, 2014, at 3:01 PM, David Kaufman wrote: > Dear all, > > It is with much sadness that I let you know that Dr. Robert Rankin has passed away. I don't have any further details at this time, but I can pass on more info once I know more. The Kaw Nation was just contacted within the last couple of hours about his passing. > > I am extremely grateful that I got to visit Bob a couple of weeks ago. > > Sincerely, > > Dave > > David Kaufman > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Mon Feb 24 20:33:42 2014 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Greer, Jill) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 20:33:42 +0000 Subject: Sad news In-Reply-To: <42470DE5-FF19-4CD2-BF4D-CC32AFF0972F@exchange.csuchico.edu> Message-ID: A light has gone out for us all. I would never have studied a Siouan language if Bob had not used his wonderful powers of persuasion to convince Louanna Furbee to set aside Mayan languages for a little while, from a sense of duty of being at Mizzou. He drove to Columbia to give us a huge packet of materials, and did a long workshop of introduction to Siouan linguistics. And that was just the beginning. Not to mention opening his home for so many gatherings. So generous, so scholarly, so dedicated. Truly I?m heartbroken, too. From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Trechter, Sara Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:19 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Sad news This is truly sad. I will miss his thoughtfulness and his great BS detection. Sent from my iPhone On Feb 24, 2014, at 12:16 PM, "Mcbride, Justin" > wrote: I am crushed. I am so sorry to hear this. He was an excellent mentor, a joy to work with, and a dear friend. -jtm On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 2:08 PM, John P. Boyle > wrote: Thanks Dave. What a loss. Bob was such a tremendous figure in the field. He was always generous with his time and comments especially to us younger scholars. He is the reason for who I am today. I'm heartbroken. John Boyle From: David Kaufman > Reply-To: Siouan Linguistics > Date: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:01 PM To: > Subject: Sad news Dear all, It is with much sadness that I let you know that Dr. Robert Rankin has passed away. I don't have any further details at this time, but I can pass on more info once I know more. The Kaw Nation was just contacted within the last couple of hours about his passing. I am extremely grateful that I got to visit Bob a couple of weeks ago. Sincerely, Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mithun at LINGUISTICS.UCSB.EDU Mon Feb 24 20:40:45 2014 From: mithun at LINGUISTICS.UCSB.EDU (Marianne Mithun) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 12:40:45 -0800 Subject: Sad news In-Reply-To: <42470DE5-FF19-4CD2-BF4D-CC32AFF0972F@exchange.csuchico.edu> Message-ID: Oh no. This is a terrible, terrible loss. Bob knew so very much, and shared so much with all of us. It is just very difficult to believe. Thank you for letting us know. Marianne --On Monday, February 24, 2014 12:19 PM -0800 "Trechter, Sara" wrote: > > This is truly sad. I will miss his thoughtfulness and his great BS > detection. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Feb 24, 2014, at 12:16 PM, "Mcbride, Justin" > wrote: > > > > > I am crushed. I am so sorry to hear this. He was an excellent mentor, a > joy to work with, and a dear friend. -jtm > > > > On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 2:08 PM, John P. Boyle > wrote: > > > > Thanks Dave. > > > What a loss. Bob was such a tremendous figure in the field. He was > always generous with his time and comments especially to us younger > scholars. He is the reason for who I am today. I'm heartbroken. > > > John Boyle > > > From: David Kaufman > Reply-To: Siouan Linguistics > Date: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:01 PM > > To: > Subject: Sad news > > > > > > > > > > Dear all, > > It is with much sadness that I let you know that Dr. Robert Rankin has > passed away. I don't have any further details at this time, but I can > pass on more info once I know more. The Kaw Nation was just contacted > within the last couple of hours about his passing. > > I am extremely grateful that I got to visit Bob a couple of weeks ago. > > Sincerely, > > Dave > > > > > > > > > > David Kaufman > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > > From lcumberl at INDIANA.EDU Mon Feb 24 20:45:06 2014 From: lcumberl at INDIANA.EDU (Cumberland, Linda A) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 15:45:06 -0500 Subject: Sad news In-Reply-To: <1f5d9b5940ba41ea80c12ea3a0fddfdc@BLUPR04MB819.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: I can only second the comments of all of you so far. It was my very great privilege to work so closely with Bob on Kaw language for so many years. Despite my neophyte status in comparison to his monumental career, he always treated me as a peer. I will miss our many exchanges, as I know we will all miss his generous and detailed contributions to the List. Linda Cumberland Quoting "Greer, Jill" : > A light has gone out for us all. I would never have studied a Siouan > language if Bob had not used his wonderful powers of persuasion to > convince Louanna Furbee to set aside Mayan languages for a little > while, from a sense of duty of being at Mizzou. He drove to > Columbia to give us a huge packet of materials, and did a long > workshop of introduction to Siouan linguistics. And that was just > the beginning. Not to mention opening his home for so many > gatherings. > So generous, so scholarly, so dedicated. > > Truly I?m heartbroken, too. > > From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf > Of Trechter, Sara > Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:19 PM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Re: Sad news > > This is truly sad. I will miss his thoughtfulness and his great BS detection. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Feb 24, 2014, at 12:16 PM, "Mcbride, Justin" > > > wrote: > I am crushed. I am so sorry to hear this. He was an excellent mentor, > a joy to work with, and a dear friend. -jtm > > On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 2:08 PM, John P. Boyle > > > wrote: > Thanks Dave. > > What a loss. Bob was such a tremendous figure in the field. He was > always generous with his time and comments especially to us younger > scholars. He is the reason for who I am today. I'm heartbroken. > > John Boyle > > From: David Kaufman > > Reply-To: Siouan Linguistics > > > Date: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:01 PM > > To: > > Subject: Sad news > > Dear all, > It is with much sadness that I let you know that Dr. Robert Rankin > has passed away. I don't have any further details at this time, but > I can pass on more info once I know more. The Kaw Nation was just > contacted within the last couple of hours about his passing. > I am extremely grateful that I got to visit Bob a couple of weeks ago. > Sincerely, > Dave > > David Kaufman > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > > > This email may contain identifiable personal information that is > subject to protection under state and federal law. This information > is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not > the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, > distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited > and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic > transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic > mail (reply). > From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Mon Feb 24 20:46:31 2014 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 20:46:31 +0000 Subject: Sad news In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm stunned and heartbroken to hear this. Bob spent so much time discussing points of grammar with me, both on the list and privately. Most of what I know of Siouan linguistics, I owe to him. He was a rock, and an inspiration. His knowledge was incredible, and he shared it generously. I can't even say how much I will miss him. Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of David Kaufman Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:01 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Sad news Dear all, It is with much sadness that I let you know that Dr. Robert Rankin has passed away. I don't have any further details at this time, but I can pass on more info once I know more. The Kaw Nation was just contacted within the last couple of hours about his passing. I am extremely grateful that I got to visit Bob a couple of weeks ago. Sincerely, Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From majohnson25 at WISC.EDU Mon Feb 24 21:08:04 2014 From: majohnson25 at WISC.EDU (Meredith Johnson) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 15:08:04 -0600 Subject: Sad news In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is heartbreaking news. If anyone is interested in organizing something to honor Dr. Rankin at the upcoming SCLC in May, please contact me, and we can build that into the conference schedule. Best, Meredith On Feb 24, 2014, at 2:46 PM, Rory Larson wrote: > I?m stunned and heartbroken to hear this. Bob spent so much time discussing points of grammar with me, both on the list and privately. Most of what I know of Siouan linguistics, I owe to him. He was a rock, and an inspiration. His knowledge was incredible, and he shared it generously. I can?t even say how much I will miss him. > > Rory > > > From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of David Kaufman > Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:01 PM > To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU > Subject: Sad news > > Dear all, > > It is with much sadness that I let you know that Dr. Robert Rankin has passed away. I don't have any further details at this time, but I can pass on more info once I know more. The Kaw Nation was just contacted within the last couple of hours about his passing. > > I am extremely grateful that I got to visit Bob a couple of weeks ago. > > Sincerely, > > Dave > > David Kaufman > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK Mon Feb 24 21:22:07 2014 From: Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK (Anthony Grant) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 21:22:07 +0000 Subject: Sad news Message-ID: This is dreadful news. I met Bob once (in 1995) and was delighted to be able to thank him for his generosity to me with his Dhegiha materials. He was just a splendid person and his linguistic achievements were known to so few. I recommended his chapter on the Comparative Method to my students just a few weeks back. My deep condolences to his family. Anthony ________________________________ Edge Hill University Times Higher University of the Year - shortlisted 2007/8, 2010/11, 2011/12 www.edgehill.ac.uk ________________________________ This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and remove it from your system. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Edge Hill or associated companies. Edge Hill University may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of security and business communications during staff absence. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.rood at COLORADO.EDU Mon Feb 24 21:48:19 2014 From: david.rood at COLORADO.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 14:48:19 -0700 Subject: Sad news In-Reply-To: <20140224154506.asfoz4moe8k4k0gs@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: I don't know where to begin. It was Bob's knowledge and leadership that made the Comparative Siouan Dictionary possible. The emptiness he leaves behind is likely never to be filled. David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Mon, 24 Feb 2014, Cumberland, Linda A wrote: > I can only second the comments of all of you so far. It was my very great > privilege to work so closely with Bob on Kaw language for so many years. > Despite my neophyte status in comparison to his monumental career, he always > treated me as a peer. I will miss our many exchanges, as I know we will all > miss his generous and detailed contributions to the List. > > Linda Cumberland > > > Quoting "Greer, Jill" : > >> A light has gone out for us all. I would never have studied a Siouan >> language if Bob had not used his wonderful powers of persuasion to >> convince Louanna Furbee to set aside Mayan languages for a little >> while, from a sense of duty of being at Mizzou. He drove to >> Columbia to give us a huge packet of materials, and did a long >> workshop of introduction to Siouan linguistics. And that was just >> the beginning. Not to mention opening his home for so many >> gatherings. >> So generous, so scholarly, so dedicated. >> >> Truly I?m heartbroken, too. >> >> From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf >> Of Trechter, Sara >> Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:19 PM >> To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >> Subject: Re: Sad news >> >> This is truly sad. I will miss his thoughtfulness and his great BS >> detection. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Feb 24, 2014, at 12:16 PM, "Mcbride, Justin" >> > >> wrote: >> I am crushed. I am so sorry to hear this. He was an excellent mentor, >> a joy to work with, and a dear friend. -jtm >> >> On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 2:08 PM, John P. Boyle >> > >> wrote: >> Thanks Dave. >> >> What a loss. Bob was such a tremendous figure in the field. He was >> always generous with his time and comments especially to us younger >> scholars. He is the reason for who I am today. I'm heartbroken. >> >> John Boyle >> >> From: David Kaufman > >> Reply-To: Siouan Linguistics >> > >> Date: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:01 PM >> >> To: > >> Subject: Sad news >> >> Dear all, >> It is with much sadness that I let you know that Dr. Robert Rankin >> has passed away. I don't have any further details at this time, but >> I can pass on more info once I know more. The Kaw Nation was just >> contacted within the last couple of hours about his passing. >> I am extremely grateful that I got to visit Bob a couple of weeks ago. >> Sincerely, >> Dave >> >> David Kaufman >> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >> >> >> >> This email may contain identifiable personal information that is >> subject to protection under state and federal law. This information >> is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not >> the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, >> distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited >> and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic >> transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic >> mail (reply). >> > From stanleyl at LUTHER.EDU Mon Feb 24 22:53:41 2014 From: stanleyl at LUTHER.EDU (Lori Stanley) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 16:53:41 -0600 Subject: Sad news In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is devastating news. Bob was a superb scholar, but beyond that he was a kind, compassionate, generous human being. What a huge loss for his family, friends, and the community of scholars. On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 3:48 PM, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > I don't know where to begin. It was Bob's knowledge and leadership that > made the Comparative Siouan Dictionary possible. The emptiness he leaves > behind is likely never to be filled. > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > > On Mon, 24 Feb 2014, Cumberland, Linda A wrote: > > I can only second the comments of all of you so far. It was my very great >> privilege to work so closely with Bob on Kaw language for so many years. >> Despite my neophyte status in comparison to his monumental career, he >> always treated me as a peer. I will miss our many exchanges, as I know we >> will all miss his generous and detailed contributions to the List. >> >> Linda Cumberland >> >> >> Quoting "Greer, Jill" : >> >> A light has gone out for us all. I would never have studied a Siouan >>> language if Bob had not used his wonderful powers of persuasion to >>> convince Louanna Furbee to set aside Mayan languages for a little >>> while, from a sense of duty of being at Mizzou. He drove to >>> Columbia to give us a huge packet of materials, and did a long >>> workshop of introduction to Siouan linguistics. And that was just >>> the beginning. Not to mention opening his home for so many >>> gatherings. >>> So generous, so scholarly, so dedicated. >>> >>> Truly I?m heartbroken, too. >>> >>> From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf >>> Of Trechter, Sara >>> Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:19 PM >>> To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >>> Subject: Re: Sad news >>> >>> This is truly sad. I will miss his thoughtfulness and his great BS >>> detection. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Feb 24, 2014, at 12:16 PM, "Mcbride, Justin" >>> > >>> wrote: >>> I am crushed. I am so sorry to hear this. He was an excellent mentor, >>> a joy to work with, and a dear friend. -jtm >>> >>> On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 2:08 PM, John P. Boyle >>> >> >> >>> wrote: >>> Thanks Dave. >>> >>> What a loss. Bob was such a tremendous figure in the field. He was >>> always generous with his time and comments especially to us younger >>> scholars. He is the reason for who I am today. I'm heartbroken. >>> >>> John Boyle >>> >>> From: David Kaufman >> >> >>> Reply-To: Siouan Linguistics >>> > >>> Date: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:01 PM >>> >>> To: > >>> Subject: Sad news >>> >>> Dear all, >>> It is with much sadness that I let you know that Dr. Robert Rankin >>> has passed away. I don't have any further details at this time, but >>> I can pass on more info once I know more. The Kaw Nation was just >>> contacted within the last couple of hours about his passing. >>> I am extremely grateful that I got to visit Bob a couple of weeks ago. >>> Sincerely, >>> Dave >>> >>> David Kaufman >>> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >>> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >>> >>> >>> >>> This email may contain identifiable personal information that is >>> subject to protection under state and federal law. This information >>> is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not >>> the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, >>> distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited >>> and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic >>> transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic >>> mail (reply). >>> >>> >> -- Lori A. Stanley Professor of Anthropology Luther College 700 College Drive Decorah, Iowa 52101 563-387-1283 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From saponi360 at YAHOO.COM Mon Feb 24 23:27:47 2014 From: saponi360 at YAHOO.COM (Scott Collins) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 15:27:47 -0800 Subject: Sad news In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is absolutely awful.? ? Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." ________________________________ From: Lori Stanley To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 4:53 PM Subject: Re: Sad news This is devastating news.? Bob was a superb scholar, but beyond that he was a kind, compassionate, generous human being.? What a huge loss for his family, friends, and the community of scholars. On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 3:48 PM, ROOD DAVID S wrote: I don't know where to begin. ?It was Bob's knowledge and leadership that made the Comparative Siouan Dictionary possible. ?The emptiness he leaves behind is likely never to be filled. > >David S. Rood >Dept. of Linguistics >Univ. of Colorado >295 UCB >Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >USA >rood at colorado.edu > > >On Mon, 24 Feb 2014, Cumberland, Linda A wrote: > > >I can only second the comments of all of you so far. It was my very great privilege to work so closely with Bob on Kaw language for so many years. Despite my neophyte status in comparison to his monumental career, he always treated me as a peer. I will miss our many exchanges, as I know we will all miss his generous and detailed contributions to the List. >> >>Linda Cumberland >> >> >>Quoting "Greer, Jill" : >> >> >>A light has gone out for us all. ?I would never have studied a Siouan >>>language if Bob had not used his wonderful powers of persuasion to >>>convince Louanna Furbee to set aside Mayan languages for a little >>>while, from a sense of duty of being at Mizzou. ? He drove to >>>Columbia to give us a huge packet of materials, and did a long >>>workshop of introduction to Siouan linguistics. ?And that was just >>>the beginning. ?Not to mention opening his home for so many >>>gatherings. >>>So generous, so scholarly, so dedicated. >>> >>>Truly I?m heartbroken, too. >>> >>>From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf >>>Of Trechter, Sara >>>Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:19 PM >>>To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >>>Subject: Re: Sad news >>> >>>This is truly sad. I will miss his thoughtfulness and his great BS detection. >>> >>>Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>On Feb 24, 2014, at 12:16 PM, "Mcbride, Justin" >>>> >>>wrote: >>>I am crushed. I am so sorry to hear this. He was an excellent mentor, >>>a joy to work with, and a dear friend. -jtm >>> >>>On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 2:08 PM, John P. Boyle >>>> >>>wrote: >>>Thanks Dave. >>> >>>What a loss. ?Bob was such a tremendous figure in the field. ?He was >>>always generous with his time and comments especially to us younger >>>scholars. ?He is the reason for who I am today. ?I'm heartbroken. >>> >>>John Boyle >>> >>>From: David Kaufman > >>>Reply-To: Siouan Linguistics >>>> >>>Date: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:01 PM >>> >>>To: > >>>Subject: Sad news >>> >>>Dear all, >>>It is with much sadness that I let you know that Dr. Robert Rankin >>>has passed away. ?I don't have any further details at this time, but >>>I can pass on more info once I know more. ?The Kaw Nation was just >>>contacted within the last couple of hours about his passing. >>>I am extremely grateful that I got to visit Bob a couple of weeks ago. >>>Sincerely, >>>Dave >>> >>>David Kaufman >>>Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >>>Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >>> >>> >>> >>>This email may contain identifiable personal information that is >>>subject to protection under state and federal law. This information >>>is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not >>>the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, >>>distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited >>>and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic >>>transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic >>>mail (reply). >>> >>> >> -- Lori A. Stanley Professor of Anthropology Luther College 700 College Drive Decorah, Iowa 52101 563-387-1283 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU Tue Feb 25 00:50:12 2014 From: WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU (De Reuse, Willem) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2014 00:50:12 +0000 Subject: Sad news In-Reply-To: <1393284467.57481.YahooMailNeo@web181301.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Very sad. He was one of my Master's thesis advisors, and my first teacher of Siouan. My thoughts and prayers will go to him and his family. Willem de Reuse ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics on behalf of Scott Collins Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 5:27 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Sad news This is absolutely awful. Scott P. Collins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." ________________________________ From: Lori Stanley To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 4:53 PM Subject: Re: Sad news This is devastating news. Bob was a superb scholar, but beyond that he was a kind, compassionate, generous human being. What a huge loss for his family, friends, and the community of scholars. On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 3:48 PM, ROOD DAVID S > wrote: I don't know where to begin. It was Bob's knowledge and leadership that made the Comparative Siouan Dictionary possible. The emptiness he leaves behind is likely never to be filled. David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Mon, 24 Feb 2014, Cumberland, Linda A wrote: I can only second the comments of all of you so far. It was my very great privilege to work so closely with Bob on Kaw language for so many years. Despite my neophyte status in comparison to his monumental career, he always treated me as a peer. I will miss our many exchanges, as I know we will all miss his generous and detailed contributions to the List. Linda Cumberland Quoting "Greer, Jill" >: A light has gone out for us all. I would never have studied a Siouan language if Bob had not used his wonderful powers of persuasion to convince Louanna Furbee to set aside Mayan languages for a little while, from a sense of duty of being at Mizzou. He drove to Columbia to give us a huge packet of materials, and did a long workshop of introduction to Siouan linguistics. And that was just the beginning. Not to mention opening his home for so many gatherings. So generous, so scholarly, so dedicated. Truly I?m heartbroken, too. From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Trechter, Sara Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:19 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Sad news This is truly sad. I will miss his thoughtfulness and his great BS detection. Sent from my iPhone On Feb 24, 2014, at 12:16 PM, "Mcbride, Justin" >> wrote: I am crushed. I am so sorry to hear this. He was an excellent mentor, a joy to work with, and a dear friend. -jtm On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 2:08 PM, John P. Boyle >> wrote: Thanks Dave. What a loss. Bob was such a tremendous figure in the field. He was always generous with his time and comments especially to us younger scholars. He is the reason for who I am today. I'm heartbroken. John Boyle From: David Kaufman >> Reply-To: Siouan Linguistics >> Date: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:01 PM To: >> Subject: Sad news Dear all, It is with much sadness that I let you know that Dr. Robert Rankin has passed away. I don't have any further details at this time, but I can pass on more info once I know more. The Kaw Nation was just contacted within the last couple of hours about his passing. I am extremely grateful that I got to visit Bob a couple of weeks ago. Sincerely, Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Lori A. Stanley Professor of Anthropology Luther College 700 College Drive Decorah, Iowa 52101 563-387-1283 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kathleendshea at GMAIL.COM Tue Feb 25 08:36:09 2014 From: kathleendshea at GMAIL.COM (Kathleen D. Shea) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2014 00:36:09 -0800 Subject: Sad news In-Reply-To: <90299b654c6f4301a469a33a87b7a7a6@CO1PR01MB127.prod.exchangelabs.com> Message-ID: I'm without words, sad, and somewhat in shock. I will miss Bob greatly, as a friend, mentor, teacher, and scholar of the highest standards. It's hard to imagine the world without him. I had my first course in phonology with him back in the '70's, and he taught me almost everything I know about Siouan languages and comparative-historical linguistics. I'm glad I got to visit with Bob and his wife Carolyn in Lawrence shortly before Christmas, and I'm thinking of Carolyn and Bob's brother, who Dave says is also there, wishing that I were there, too, and that there was something I could do to help. Thanks for letting us know, Dave.... Kathy Shea Sent from my iPad > On Feb 24, 2014, at 4:50 PM, "De Reuse, Willem" wrote: > > Very sad. He was one of my Master's thesis advisors, and my first teacher of Siouan. My thoughts and prayers will go to him and his family. > > > Willem de Reuse > From: Siouan Linguistics on behalf of Scott Collins > Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 5:27 PM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Re: Sad news > > This is absolutely awful. > > Scott P. Collins > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR > > > Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle > > > ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? > > > "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." > > From: Lori Stanley > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 4:53 PM > Subject: Re: Sad news > > This is devastating news. Bob was a superb scholar, but beyond that he was a kind, compassionate, generous human being. What a huge loss for his family, friends, and the community of scholars. > > > > On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 3:48 PM, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > I don't know where to begin. It was Bob's knowledge and leadership that made the Comparative Siouan Dictionary possible. The emptiness he leaves behind is likely never to be filled. > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > > On Mon, 24 Feb 2014, Cumberland, Linda A wrote: > > I can only second the comments of all of you so far. It was my very great privilege to work so closely with Bob on Kaw language for so many years. Despite my neophyte status in comparison to his monumental career, he always treated me as a peer. I will miss our many exchanges, as I know we will all miss his generous and detailed contributions to the List. > > Linda Cumberland > > > Quoting "Greer, Jill" : > > A light has gone out for us all. I would never have studied a Siouan > language if Bob had not used his wonderful powers of persuasion to > convince Louanna Furbee to set aside Mayan languages for a little > while, from a sense of duty of being at Mizzou. He drove to > Columbia to give us a huge packet of materials, and did a long > workshop of introduction to Siouan linguistics. And that was just > the beginning. Not to mention opening his home for so many > gatherings. > So generous, so scholarly, so dedicated. > > Truly I?m heartbroken, too. > > From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf > Of Trechter, Sara > Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:19 PM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Re: Sad news > > This is truly sad. I will miss his thoughtfulness and his great BS detection. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Feb 24, 2014, at 12:16 PM, "Mcbride, Justin" > > > wrote: > I am crushed. I am so sorry to hear this. He was an excellent mentor, > a joy to work with, and a dear friend. -jtm > > On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 2:08 PM, John P. Boyle > > > wrote: > Thanks Dave. > > What a loss. Bob was such a tremendous figure in the field. He was > always generous with his time and comments especially to us younger > scholars. He is the reason for who I am today. I'm heartbroken. > > John Boyle > > From: David Kaufman > > Reply-To: Siouan Linguistics > > > Date: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:01 PM > > To: > > Subject: Sad news > > Dear all, > It is with much sadness that I let you know that Dr. Robert Rankin > has passed away. I don't have any further details at this time, but > I can pass on more info once I know more. The Kaw Nation was just > contacted within the last couple of hours about his passing. > I am extremely grateful that I got to visit Bob a couple of weeks ago. > Sincerely, > Dave > > David Kaufman > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > > > This email may contain identifiable personal information that is > subject to protection under state and federal law. This information > is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not > the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, > distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited > and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic > transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic > mail (reply). > > > > > > -- > Lori A. Stanley > Professor of Anthropology > Luther College > 700 College Drive > Decorah, Iowa 52101 > 563-387-1283 > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jfu at LAKHOTA.ORG Tue Feb 25 12:07:12 2014 From: jfu at LAKHOTA.ORG (Jan Ullrich) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2014 13:07:12 +0100 Subject: Sad news In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is devastating news. I knew Bob as someone who was always very kind and generous with his help and support. It is an terrible loss for Siouan linguistics. Condolences to his family. Jan From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of David Kaufman Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 9:01 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Sad news Dear all, It is with much sadness that I let you know that Dr. Robert Rankin has passed away. I don't have any further details at this time, but I can pass on more info once I know more. The Kaw Nation was just contacted within the last couple of hours about his passing. I am extremely grateful that I got to visit Bob a couple of weeks ago. Sincerely, Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wipamankere at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Feb 25 12:26:48 2014 From: wipamankere at HOTMAIL.COM (Iren Hartmann) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2014 06:26:48 -0600 Subject: Sad news In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I am still in shock! These are truly terrible news! There is so much more we needed to learn from him. Bob Rankin was one of the most humble, generous, knowledgeable and brilliant scholars I know. A real loss to all of us. Siouan conferences will never be the same again. My thoughts are with his family in this difficult time. - Iren Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 14:01:02 -0600 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Subject: Sad news To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Dear all, It is with much sadness that I let you know that Dr. Robert Rankin has passed away. I don't have any further details at this time, but I can pass on more info once I know more. The Kaw Nation was just contacted within the last couple of hours about his passing. I am extremely grateful that I got to visit Bob a couple of weeks ago. Sincerely, Dave David KaufmanLinguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU Tue Feb 25 16:59:01 2014 From: jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU (Mcbride, Justin) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2014 10:59:01 -0600 Subject: Sad news In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Does anyone have any word on any memorial arrangements or funeral services? Several of us probably live close enough to attend without experiencing too much travel hardship. On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 6:26 AM, Iren Hartmann wrote: > I am still in shock! These are truly terrible news! There is so much more > we needed to learn from him. Bob Rankin was one of the most humble, > generous, knowledgeable and brilliant scholars I know. A real loss to all > of us. Siouan conferences will never be the same again. > > My thoughts are with his family in this difficult time. > > - Iren > > ------------------------------ > Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 14:01:02 -0600 > From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM > Subject: Sad news > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > > > Dear all, > > It is with much sadness that I let you know that Dr. Robert Rankin has > passed away. I don't have any further details at this time, but I can pass > on more info once I know more. The Kaw Nation was just contacted within > the last couple of hours about his passing. > > I am extremely grateful that I got to visit Bob a couple of weeks ago. > > Sincerely, > > Dave > > David Kaufman > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kathleendshea at GMAIL.COM Tue Feb 25 19:01:25 2014 From: kathleendshea at GMAIL.COM (Kathleen D. Shea) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2014 11:01:25 -0800 Subject: Sad news In-Reply-To: <90299b654c6f4301a469a33a87b7a7a6@CO1PR01MB127.prod.exchangelabs.com> Message-ID: I'm without words, sad, and somewhat in shock. I will miss Bob greatly, as a friend, mentor, teacher, and scholar of the highest standards. It's hard to imagine the world without him. I had my first course in phonology with him back in the '70's, and he taught me almost everything I know about Siouan languages and comparative-historical linguistics. I'm glad I got to visit with Bob and his wife Carolyn in Lawrence shortly before Christmas, and I'm thinking of Carolyn and Bob's brother, who Dave says is also there, wishing that I were there, too, and that there was something I could do to help. Thanks for letting us know, Dave.... Kathy Shea Sent from my iPad > On Feb 24, 2014, at 4:50 PM, "De Reuse, Willem" wrote: > > Very sad. He was one of my Master's thesis advisors, and my first teacher of Siouan. My thoughts and prayers will go to him and his family. > > > Willem de Reuse > From: Siouan Linguistics on behalf of Scott Collins > Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 5:27 PM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Re: Sad news > > This is absolutely awful. > > Scott P. Collins > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR > > > Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle > > > ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? > > > "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." > > From: Lori Stanley > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 4:53 PM > Subject: Re: Sad news > > This is devastating news. Bob was a superb scholar, but beyond that he was a kind, compassionate, generous human being. What a huge loss for his family, friends, and the community of scholars. > > > > On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 3:48 PM, ROOD DAVID S wrote: > I don't know where to begin. It was Bob's knowledge and leadership that made the Comparative Siouan Dictionary possible. The emptiness he leaves behind is likely never to be filled. > > David S. Rood > Dept. of Linguistics > Univ. of Colorado > 295 UCB > Boulder, CO 80309-0295 > USA > rood at colorado.edu > > > On Mon, 24 Feb 2014, Cumberland, Linda A wrote: > > I can only second the comments of all of you so far. It was my very great privilege to work so closely with Bob on Kaw language for so many years. Despite my neophyte status in comparison to his monumental career, he always treated me as a peer. I will miss our many exchanges, as I know we will all miss his generous and detailed contributions to the List. > > Linda Cumberland > > > Quoting "Greer, Jill" : > > A light has gone out for us all. I would never have studied a Siouan > language if Bob had not used his wonderful powers of persuasion to > convince Louanna Furbee to set aside Mayan languages for a little > while, from a sense of duty of being at Mizzou. He drove to > Columbia to give us a huge packet of materials, and did a long > workshop of introduction to Siouan linguistics. And that was just > the beginning. Not to mention opening his home for so many > gatherings. > So generous, so scholarly, so dedicated. > > Truly I?m heartbroken, too. > > From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf > Of Trechter, Sara > Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:19 PM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Re: Sad news > > This is truly sad. I will miss his thoughtfulness and his great BS detection. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Feb 24, 2014, at 12:16 PM, "Mcbride, Justin" > > > wrote: > I am crushed. I am so sorry to hear this. He was an excellent mentor, > a joy to work with, and a dear friend. -jtm > > On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 2:08 PM, John P. Boyle > > > wrote: > Thanks Dave. > > What a loss. Bob was such a tremendous figure in the field. He was > always generous with his time and comments especially to us younger > scholars. He is the reason for who I am today. I'm heartbroken. > > John Boyle > > From: David Kaufman > > Reply-To: Siouan Linguistics > > > Date: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:01 PM > > To: > > Subject: Sad news > > Dear all, > It is with much sadness that I let you know that Dr. Robert Rankin > has passed away. I don't have any further details at this time, but > I can pass on more info once I know more. The Kaw Nation was just > contacted within the last couple of hours about his passing. > I am extremely grateful that I got to visit Bob a couple of weeks ago. > Sincerely, > Dave > > David Kaufman > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > > > This email may contain identifiable personal information that is > subject to protection under state and federal law. This information > is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not > the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, > distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited > and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic > transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic > mail (reply). > > > > > > -- > Lori A. Stanley > Professor of Anthropology > Luther College > 700 College Drive > Decorah, Iowa 52101 > 563-387-1283 > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Tue Feb 25 19:08:33 2014 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2014 13:08:33 -0600 Subject: Sad news In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Update: I spoke with Bob's wife Carolyn last night. Bob passed away about 3:15 yesterday (Monday) morning at a hospital in Kansas City. He had been taken into emergency last week because of bleeding in the brain. Turns out the bleeding was caused by tumors found in his brain from the metathesized prostate cancer. They could no longer do kidney dialysis on account of this, and they knew then that it was only a matter of time. His body is being cremated. Carolyn is doing quite well under the circumstances. She said she may have a memorial service for Bob at the University of Kansas, but nothing definite has been arranged yet. I'll let you know when I hear anything further. Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 10:59 AM, Mcbride, Justin < jtmcbri at ostatemail.okstate.edu> wrote: > Does anyone have any word on any memorial arrangements or funeral > services? Several of us probably live close enough to attend without > experiencing too much travel hardship. > > > On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 6:26 AM, Iren Hartmann wrote: > >> I am still in shock! These are truly terrible news! There is so much more >> we needed to learn from him. Bob Rankin was one of the most humble, >> generous, knowledgeable and brilliant scholars I know. A real loss to all >> of us. Siouan conferences will never be the same again. >> >> My thoughts are with his family in this difficult time. >> >> - Iren >> >> ------------------------------ >> Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 14:01:02 -0600 >> From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM >> Subject: Sad news >> To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >> >> >> Dear all, >> >> It is with much sadness that I let you know that Dr. Robert Rankin has >> passed away. I don't have any further details at this time, but I can pass >> on more info once I know more. The Kaw Nation was just contacted within >> the last couple of hours about his passing. >> >> I am extremely grateful that I got to visit Bob a couple of weeks ago. >> >> Sincerely, >> >> Dave >> >> David Kaufman >> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kathleendshea at GMAIL.COM Tue Feb 25 19:25:49 2014 From: kathleendshea at GMAIL.COM (Kathleen D. Shea) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2014 11:25:49 -0800 Subject: Fwd: Sad news Message-ID: Sent from my iPad Begin forwarded message: > From: "Kathleen D. Shea" > Date: February 25, 2014 at 11:01:25 AM PST > To: Siouan Linguistics > Subject: Re: Sad news > > I'm without words, sad, and somewhat in shock. I will miss Bob greatly, as a friend, mentor, teacher, and scholar of the highest standards. It's hard to imagine the world without him. I had my first course in phonology with him back in the '70's, and he taught me almost everything I know about Siouan languages and comparative-historical linguistics. > > I'm glad I got to visit with Bob and his wife Carolyn in Lawrence shortly before Christmas, and I'm thinking of Carolyn and Bob's brother, who Dave says is also there, wishing that I were there, too, and that there was something I could do to help. Thanks for letting us know, Dave.... > > Kathy Shea > > Sent from my iPad > >> On Feb 24, 2014, at 4:50 PM, "De Reuse, Willem" wrote: >> >> Very sad. He was one of my Master's thesis advisors, and my first teacher of Siouan. My thoughts and prayers will go to him and his family. >> >> >> Willem de Reuse >> From: Siouan Linguistics on behalf of Scott Collins >> Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 5:27 PM >> To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >> Subject: Re: Sad news >> >> This is absolutely awful. >> >> Scott P. Collins >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR >> >> >> Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle >> >> >> ?Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.? >> >> >> "The greater the denial the greater the awakening." >> >> From: Lori Stanley >> To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >> Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 4:53 PM >> Subject: Re: Sad news >> >> This is devastating news. Bob was a superb scholar, but beyond that he was a kind, compassionate, generous human being. What a huge loss for his family, friends, and the community of scholars. >> >> >> >> On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 3:48 PM, ROOD DAVID S wrote: >> I don't know where to begin. It was Bob's knowledge and leadership that made the Comparative Siouan Dictionary possible. The emptiness he leaves behind is likely never to be filled. >> >> David S. Rood >> Dept. of Linguistics >> Univ. of Colorado >> 295 UCB >> Boulder, CO 80309-0295 >> USA >> rood at colorado.edu >> >> >> On Mon, 24 Feb 2014, Cumberland, Linda A wrote: >> >> I can only second the comments of all of you so far. It was my very great privilege to work so closely with Bob on Kaw language for so many years. Despite my neophyte status in comparison to his monumental career, he always treated me as a peer. I will miss our many exchanges, as I know we will all miss his generous and detailed contributions to the List. >> >> Linda Cumberland >> >> >> Quoting "Greer, Jill" : >> >> A light has gone out for us all. I would never have studied a Siouan >> language if Bob had not used his wonderful powers of persuasion to >> convince Louanna Furbee to set aside Mayan languages for a little >> while, from a sense of duty of being at Mizzou. He drove to >> Columbia to give us a huge packet of materials, and did a long >> workshop of introduction to Siouan linguistics. And that was just >> the beginning. Not to mention opening his home for so many >> gatherings. >> So generous, so scholarly, so dedicated. >> >> Truly I?m heartbroken, too. >> >> From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf >> Of Trechter, Sara >> Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:19 PM >> To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >> Subject: Re: Sad news >> >> This is truly sad. I will miss his thoughtfulness and his great BS detection. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Feb 24, 2014, at 12:16 PM, "Mcbride, Justin" >> > >> wrote: >> I am crushed. I am so sorry to hear this. He was an excellent mentor, >> a joy to work with, and a dear friend. -jtm >> >> On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 2:08 PM, John P. Boyle >> > >> wrote: >> Thanks Dave. >> >> What a loss. Bob was such a tremendous figure in the field. He was >> always generous with his time and comments especially to us younger >> scholars. He is the reason for who I am today. I'm heartbroken. >> >> John Boyle >> >> From: David Kaufman > >> Reply-To: Siouan Linguistics >> > >> Date: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:01 PM >> >> To: > >> Subject: Sad news >> >> Dear all, >> It is with much sadness that I let you know that Dr. Robert Rankin >> has passed away. I don't have any further details at this time, but >> I can pass on more info once I know more. The Kaw Nation was just >> contacted within the last couple of hours about his passing. >> I am extremely grateful that I got to visit Bob a couple of weeks ago. >> Sincerely, >> Dave >> >> David Kaufman >> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >> >> >> >> This email may contain identifiable personal information that is >> subject to protection under state and federal law. This information >> is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not >> the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, >> distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited >> and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic >> transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic >> mail (reply). >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Lori A. Stanley >> Professor of Anthropology >> Luther College >> 700 College Drive >> Decorah, Iowa 52101 >> 563-387-1283 >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rgraczyk at AOL.COM Wed Feb 26 02:04:56 2014 From: rgraczyk at AOL.COM (Randy Graczyk) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2014 21:04:56 -0500 Subject: Sad news In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bob was a scholar and a gentleman, and I learned so much from him about Siouan languages. We will all miss him--may he rest in peace. Randolph -----Original Message----- From: David Kaufman To: SIOUAN Sent: Tue, Feb 25, 2014 12:10 pm Subject: Re: Sad news Update: I spoke with Bob's wife Carolyn last night. Bob passed away about 3:15 yesterday (Monday) morning at a hospital in Kansas City. He had been taken into emergency last week because of bleeding in the brain. Turns out the bleeding was caused by tumors found in his brain from the metathesized prostate cancer. They could no longer do kidney dialysis on account of this, and they knew then that it was only a matter of time. His body is being cremated. Carolyn is doing quite well under the circumstances. She said she may have a memorial service for Bob at the University of Kansas, but nothing definite has been arranged yet. I'll let you know when I hear anything further. Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 10:59 AM, Mcbride, Justin wrote: Does anyone have any word on any memorial arrangements or funeral services? Several of us probably live close enough to attend without experiencing too much travel hardship. On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 6:26 AM, Iren Hartmann wrote: I am still in shock! These are truly terrible news! There is so much more we needed to learn from him. Bob Rankin was one of the most humble, generous, knowledgeable and brilliant scholars I know. A real loss to all of us. Siouan conferences will never be the same again. My thoughts are with his family in this difficult time. - Iren Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 14:01:02 -0600 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Subject: Sad news To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Dear all, It is with much sadness that I let you know that Dr. Robert Rankin has passed away. I don't have any further details at this time, but I can pass on more info once I know more. The Kaw Nation was just contacted within the last couple of hours about his passing. I am extremely grateful that I got to visit Bob a couple of weeks ago. Sincerely, Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From george.wilmes at GMAIL.COM Wed Feb 26 02:23:58 2014 From: george.wilmes at GMAIL.COM (George Wilmes) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2014 20:23:58 -0600 Subject: Sad news In-Reply-To: <8D100AE47ECA9EB-26E8-26CCD@webmail-d289.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: I'm grateful for the few opportunities that I had to meet Bob at the Siouan conferences, and for the legacy that he left in each of you. Thank you all for growing in Bob's light and becoming the people that he was so proud of. May your many fond memories of him bring you peace. On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 8:04 PM, Randy Graczyk wrote: > Bob was a scholar and a gentleman, and I learned so much from him about > Siouan languages. We will all miss him--may he rest in peace. > > Randolph > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: David Kaufman > To: SIOUAN > Sent: Tue, Feb 25, 2014 12:10 pm > Subject: Re: Sad news > > Update: I spoke with Bob's wife Carolyn last night. Bob passed away > about 3:15 yesterday (Monday) morning at a hospital in Kansas City. He had > been taken into emergency last week because of bleeding in the brain. > Turns out the bleeding was caused by tumors found in his brain from the > metathesized prostate cancer. They could no longer do kidney dialysis on > account of this, and they knew then that it was only a matter of time. His > body is being cremated. Carolyn is doing quite well under the > circumstances. She said she may have a memorial service for Bob at the > University of Kansas, but nothing definite has been arranged yet. I'll let > you know when I hear anything further. > > Dave > > David Kaufman > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > > On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 10:59 AM, Mcbride, Justin < > jtmcbri at ostatemail.okstate.edu> wrote: > >> Does anyone have any word on any memorial arrangements or funeral >> services? Several of us probably live close enough to attend without >> experiencing too much travel hardship. >> >> >> On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 6:26 AM, Iren Hartmann wrote: >> >>> I am still in shock! These are truly terrible news! There is so much >>> more we needed to learn from him. Bob Rankin was one of the most humble, >>> generous, knowledgeable and brilliant scholars I know. A real loss to all >>> of us. Siouan conferences will never be the same again. >>> >>> My thoughts are with his family in this difficult time. >>> >>> - Iren >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 14:01:02 -0600 >>> From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM >>> Subject: Sad news >>> To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >>> >>> >>> Dear all, >>> >>> It is with much sadness that I let you know that Dr. Robert Rankin has >>> passed away. I don't have any further details at this time, but I can pass >>> on more info once I know more. The Kaw Nation was just contacted within >>> the last couple of hours about his passing. >>> >>> I am extremely grateful that I got to visit Bob a couple of weeks ago. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> David Kaufman >>> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >>> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >>> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Kathleen.Danker at SDSTATE.EDU Thu Feb 27 02:34:00 2014 From: Kathleen.Danker at SDSTATE.EDU (Danker, Kathleen) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2014 02:34:00 +0000 Subject: Sad news In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I am so sorry to hear this. Bob was such a kind man and brilliant scholar. Kathleen Danker From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of David Kaufman Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:01 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Sad news Dear all, It is with much sadness that I let you know that Dr. Robert Rankin has passed away. I don't have any further details at this time, but I can pass on more info once I know more. The Kaw Nation was just contacted within the last couple of hours about his passing. I am extremely grateful that I got to visit Bob a couple of weeks ago. Sincerely, Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Thu Feb 27 11:52:21 2014 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm Goodtracks) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2014 05:52:21 -0600 Subject: Aho! In-Reply-To: <000601cf3007$ac3f2f00$04bd8d00$@com> Message-ID: ** say (accidentally ~ falsely) v.i. ?^e. say (in bad sense, slander, reproof) v.t. ga^?ge; g?ig?. say all that is ~ needs to be said; say it all; tell all the news; leave no news to be told by anyone (all the news; nothing more to be said; have the last word) adv/v.i. ich^? ra??na; ich^? ran??e: (I..., ich^? had?sena; you..., ich^? sd?sena; we..., ich^? hind?senawi; they?, ich^? das?na?e). They were dissatisfied and disputed with each other, so I told them what the Old People said about it. And then, that was it, I had said everything (that needed be said), Inbran ?k??i?ena ek?gragunhe?e ke. H?da ?^?ge g?^naha w?rage?e d?hge^i w?gihe ke. Ar? ga??n ke; ich^? had??ena ke. say as follows v.i. ga^?. It (a newspaper article) said, ?Two Indians quarreled on the reservation and one Francis White Cloud was killed,? ?re ga^?: ?Wan^?h?nk^oke?i n?we kid?gewi ke; Frances White Cloud iy?nki ch^ehi ke.? [Film: Ioway II; PF). say as follows to another v.t. ga^?^a. They said as follows to him, Ga^ig??e ke. say as follows to them (in reproof) v.t. gaw?ge. Whenever he went back to Kansas or Nebraska he said to them as follows to the leaders, the Chiefs, that it was good, Tat?ndan K?nsa ?ibr?thge h?hda gr?na Nud?nhan gaw?ge -- Ga?un w?xa ke. [FILM: ?Ioway? Part II; JBSM]. say in reply to someone v.i. je?re e^a. say s.t. good or bad about others v.t. w?ge. Tell me straight (Muskrat told him), W?kathox?ji h??nge ??e ke. say that (in scolding manner) v.t. ??ge (DOR). Something was the matter, so I said that, Dagur??un^na ??hage ke. say that; think that v.t. s?^e. That?s what he said, Ar? ?ihun (or) Ar? ? ke. say, said that (in reply) v.t. ?e ?re^e; s? ar? ?^a. I said that (or) That?s what I said, ?e ?re ih? ke. We said that (or) That?s what we said, ?e?re hinh?wi ke. say this to another v.t. j? ar? ?^a. say to v.t. ?^a (dor). He said it to him, ?^a ke. I said that to him, ?e?re ih?^a ke. From: Sky Campbell Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2014 1:52 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! I found a strike against my "-ke/-ge" idea referring to "in like manner." In Hamilton's An Elementary Book of the Ioway Language, page 34-35, he has the following line: a-r?-fk?-mvn-y?-we-r? - do ye likewise (arethke manyiwi re) In that situation, he has the "ithke" before the verb and not after (which was my idea). After a quick scan of the rest of the book, I found examples of imperatives both with and without the "ka" in the hymns but I didn't immediately see anything that cleared up my confusion. And in keeping with the idea that perhaps this might be an older thing, I did a quick run through Merrill's First Ioway Reading Book and in his prayer (Lesson 12, page 13), he has the line: Nl-ce pe of-kon-kl-ra (N?nje pi uk'?ka re) - Give me a good heart. (I wonder with the possible nasal "f" that Merrill put in there if it is supposed to be a contraction of "uh?nk'?" to become "?nk'?" to say "give me".) So here we have another use of "ka" from a source other than Hamilton. I haven't gone through his hymns yet though. But no clues so far as I can tell. However I am noticing "me" being in a few of these but it may just be a coincidence. And on the off chance that this "ka" might be something that means plural (maybe an alternate way to end commands to command more than one person besides using -wi), I remembered a very odd term from Maximilian's word list where he had: guj-n - we alone To date, I have never seen the prefix "gu-" to mean "we" anywhere else. And it may not be connected in any way to the "ka/ga" we are talking about but I thought I'd put it out there. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2014 12:26 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! Going along with the "now" idea, I'm going to keep an eye out for the full form of "gasun" in these instances along with anything that will give some clues for this. I've been working a lot with Hamilton's material lately so I'll be sure to go over it thoroughly. As far as "ich'a re/it'a re", I wonder if these forms have something to do with the d/t changing to ch/j (IE te/che for buffalo and inde/inje for face) with some terms. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2014 8:52 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! H?nwe Pi: Jill says: I can't help but think that it's somehow ga- the locational prefix for something you can see, but not directly next to 1st and 2nd person (gaida 'over there (but not yonder)', gaigu, etc. - which could ultimately be related to gasuN also. It might clarify actual location, or be used metaphorically for 'now/soon' even by itself. Now applying that to the sentences, ?-ka-r? - say it, speak = ? re/ ? ga re (Say it now!) jw?-me-ka-r? - doctor me = sw?hi re/ sw?mi ga re (Doctor me now!) e-c?-ka-r? - speak thou, tell = i^cha re/ i^che ga re (Speak now!) ~~ [Jill, in the imperative, is it not ~ it^a re ?????] wo-ug-ka-r? - work thou = wa^?n ne/ wa^?n ga re (Work it now!) ru-meg-ka-r? - buy it = r?mi re/ r?mi ga re (Buy it now!) It does seem to apply in application above. Now, if that being so, why o? why does it not show up in any other texts, except Hamilton? I suppose it could have been a spoken form of the period (pre- 1850?s) that was used and then dropped by latter generations. It is noted in the dictionary, these applications that may produce a ?ga?: ga-... prf. just; exactly. **SEE: ga??n; ga?da. ga^? v.i. say as follows. Hink??i ga^?: ?G?^e ko?th^in hinnah?^e,? ? ki, My grandmother said as follows: ?He is the one we were talking about.? ga^?^a v.t. say as follows to another. They said as follows to him?, Ga^ig??e? ke. Hint?gwa ga^ih?^a: ??annegrad?nwe h?e ke,? ih? ke, I said as follows to my grandson: ?You will give me (your own one) your attention,? I told him. ga^?ge; g?ig? v.i. say that (in bad sence, slander, reproof). ?re iw?hu?e ?k??i ke Wan^s?ge ga^ige?e ke, Some people say that he does not know (anything, but in truth, the real facts support the opposite is true). H?da w?nsha x??itan gaw??gena wak?nda p??k??i war?dhe h?e ke, And that old man preacher rebuked them, saying the devil was going to get them for their sins. g? ir?yin; ga^?rayin v.t. think that; make up one?s mind. G? ih?dayin nu^? k?^o ha^?n ?k??i ke, although, I have made up my mind, I have not yet done it (the work). Sr? h?e israyin je, Do you think that you will go? **SEE: ir?yin; w?ge. g? ir? v.t. think that; think as follows. Tanh?dan grat?gre hinn?wi?ge p? nu^?re ga ih?re ke, If we were all going together, I think that it would be good. **SEE: ir?; ga?da. Jimm From: Greer, Jill Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2014 1:03 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! Hi, Sky, Interesting! This is my gut response, without any new examples unfortunately. I can't help but think that it's somehow ga- the locational prefix for something you can see, but not directly next to 1st and 2nd person (gaida 'over there (but not yonder)', gaigu, etc. - which could ultimately be related to gasuN also. It might clarify actual location, or be used metaphorically for 'now/soon' even by itself. Regarding your concern about it occurring after the verb, I can think of the common phrase Are gasuN khi 'It's okay/that's all right' , which looks like it could be in other parts of a sentence, too, besides the beginning? Your last idea seems possible also, about thge 'to be thus' which could be a result ablauting before the command? I don't know if the initial fricative was missed by Hamilton, or was deleted. (Sort of like 'Walk this way' :) ?) Is there any precedent in other Siouan languages for an emphatic form related to IOM kHe huN' ? I had the thought IF it were abbreviated to kHe, and occurred next to the -re 'command form', it could ablaut to kha , and make an emphatic command. (I have developed a personal English variant of that myself with my youngest son, Do X RIGHT NOW! (Sometimes followed by 'I'm not joking', just in case he's still not listening?) It's getting late, so forgive me if I'm stretching the limits of Siouan ablaut rules. Thanks for the examples, Sky. I know I've read through Hamilton but had forgotten that peculiarity. Help us out, friends. Iren, is there such a thing in Hochunk, too? Jill On Feb 21, 2014, at 11:24 PM, Sky Campbell wrote: I'll show a few more examples from Hamilton that may help. The example I gave (wa-ka a-ta-ka-r?) was from Hamilton's An Ioway Grammar, page 29. The following examples are from Hamilton's An Elementary Book of the Ioway Language. Perhaps these examples can help us find a common theme between them. I'll show imperatives with and without the extra "ka" syllable. FYI I'll also be using Hamilton's orthography. ?-ka-r? - say it, speak (page 21) I've seen that as simply "a re" where the verb "e" for "say" changes to "a" for the imperative. na-y?-r? - stand up (no "ka" here) (page 22) ya-w?-r? - sing thou (no "ka" here) (page 23) u-yu-r? - fill it (no "ka" here) (page 24) u-we-ra - do it (no "ka" here and is in plural form with the suffix -wi...might also be a typo since they went with "ra" rather than "r?" unless he went for a possible female form but I'm doubting that since everything else seems to be exclusively in the male form) (page 24) hu-we-r? - come here (no "ka" here and another plural form (page 24) ru-f?-r? - take it (no "ka" here) (page 24) ma-y?-r? - walk thou (no "ka" here (page 25) a-ta-r? - see thou (no "ka" here and it is the same thing as my original example but without the "ka") (page 25) jw?-me-ka-r? - doctor me (page 29) e-c?-ka-r? - speak thou, tell (page 30) wo-ug-ka-r? - work thou (page 30) ru-meg-ka-r? - buy it (page 30) me-na-we-r? - sit ye down (no "ka" here and is in plural form) (page 30) ke-kr?-we-ho - be ye gone (no "ka" here and is in plural form...also in the more polite imperative using "ho" instead of "re") (page 30) u-jkun-y?-r? - do not do it (no "ka" here) (page 31) wo-ku-we-r? - give them (no "ka" here and is in plural form) (page 31) Ok, this should do for now. Typing out this list has given me a few tentative ideas that I need to flesh out but I'll be grateful for any input :). Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 9:33 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Aho! That is an interesting find, and all your explanations are plausible, especially the 2nd one. I do not recall coming across this before, and I can not find any thing like it in the IOM Dictionary. The imperative works just as you say, and I know of no deviation. The collected texts from Dorsey, and those from Julia Small, a monolingual speaker, did not have examples as you have found. The mystery needs be reviewed by a higher power, namely the Siouan List, to whom I am going to cc this reply for their input by the professional experts and those who may have some explanation for this occurrence, or able to leave as a Hamilton phenomena. From: Campbell, Sky Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 10:44 AM To: Jimm G. GoodTracks Subject: Aho! Hope all is well up your way J. Quick question about something I?ve noticed in Hamilton and Irvin?s books. After some of the commands/imperatives, there is an extra syllable after the verb. For example, they have: wa-ka a-ta-ka-r? ? see the snake I have no idea what the ?ka? is doing after (what would be for us) ?ada?. But with Hamilton, he doesn?t differentiate between ?k? and ?g? so it may actually be a ?g? for us. He uses this quite a bit for commands but I?m not understanding why and so far I haven?t found any clues. From what I can tell, it isn?t a form of plural since he uses ?wi and he uses the singular 2nd person when the ?ka? is used. And he doesn?t always use it for the singular imperative form which is what adds to my confusion. I have 3 possibilities that spring to mind. First, the ?ka? might be a contracted form of ?gasun? which perhaps might be indicating that whatever the speaker wants done, they want it done now. Not sure about this one since you usually see ?gasun? at the beginning of a statement. Second is that the ending imperative ?re? may actually be a contraction of an older form ?kare/gare? and it has just stopped being used. That one is just a random guess LOL. Finally, I am wondering if the ?ka? is actually perhaps ?ke/ge? to refer to ?in like manner? (ithke) but since it is an imperative, the ?e? changes to an ?a?. If so, then the above sentence would perhaps say something like ?Look at the snake (in like manner).? And if so, I wonder if the context of the conversation would indicate just exactly what the ?like manner? means. What do you think? Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org ?? 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Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 519 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Thu Feb 27 19:46:51 2014 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2014 13:46:51 -0600 Subject: Memorial service for Bob Rankin Message-ID: Hi all, We've received word from Bob's wife, Carolyn, that there will be a Memorial Service for him at the Kansas Union, University of Kansas, from 1:00-3:00 on Tuesday, March 11, in the English Room on the 6th floor. It is apparently a "come and go" type of service during that 2-hour period. The Kansas Union is a multistory building located next to the multilevel parking structure near the University of Kansas (KU) entrance. The nearest airport would be Kansas City International (MCI). KU is conveniently situated near I-70, the Kansas Turnpike, in Lawrence, KS. Sincerely and with kind regards, Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK Thu Feb 27 21:21:13 2014 From: shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK (bruce Ingham) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2014 21:21:13 +0000 Subject: Memorial service for Bob Rankin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I was very sad to hear about Bob. I saw him many times at the Siouanists, the first time in Regina in 1999 and the last in Billings, Montana in 2006. He was a good friend and I wish I had seen him more often recently. My respects to his family. Bruce On 27 Feb 2014, at 19:46, David Kaufman wrote: > Hi all, > > We've received word from Bob's wife, Carolyn, that there will be a Memorial Service for him at the Kansas Union, University of Kansas, from 1:00-3:00 on Tuesday, March 11, in the English Room on the 6th floor. It is apparently a "come and go" type of service during that 2-hour period. > > The Kansas Union is a multistory building located next to the multilevel parking structure near the University of Kansas (KU) entrance. The nearest airport would be Kansas City International (MCI). KU is conveniently situated near I-70, the Kansas Turnpike, in Lawrence, KS. > > Sincerely and with kind regards, > > Dave > > David Kaufman > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Thu Feb 27 21:25:36 2014 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2014 15:25:36 -0600 Subject: Comments and condolences sent to Carolyn Rankin Message-ID: Hi all, Just a note that I copied and pasted your comments on Bob's death to an attachment that I just sent to Carolyn, his wife. It amounted to 3 pages. I'm sure she'll find solace in the many kind words. Thank you. Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Thu Feb 27 21:44:26 2014 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm Goodtracks) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2014 15:44:26 -0600 Subject: Comments and condolences sent to Carolyn Rankin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, Dave, I was wondering about that, i.e., how all of our words could be indeed relayed to her. Jimm From: David Kaufman Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2014 3:25 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Comments and condolences sent to Carolyn Rankin Hi all, Just a note that I copied and pasted your comments on Bob's death to an attachment that I just sent to Carolyn, his wife. It amounted to 3 pages. I'm sure she'll find solace in the many kind words. Thank you. Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Thu Feb 27 22:54:14 2014 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Greer, Jill) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2014 22:54:14 +0000 Subject: Comments and condolences sent to Carolyn Rankin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, Dave, That was very kind - thank you for thinking of that. Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of David Kaufman Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2014 3:26 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Comments and condolences sent to Carolyn Rankin Hi all, Just a note that I copied and pasted your comments on Bob's death to an attachment that I just sent to Carolyn, his wife. It amounted to 3 pages. I'm sure she'll find solace in the many kind words. Thank you. Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From carudin1 at WSC.EDU Thu Feb 27 23:27:06 2014 From: carudin1 at WSC.EDU (Catherine Rudin) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2014 17:27:06 -0600 Subject: Comments and condolences sent to Carolyn Rankin Message-ID: Good idea, Dave. Thanks. >>> "Greer, Jill" 02/27/14 4:55 PM >>> Hi, Dave, That was very kind * thank you for thinking of that. Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu]On Behalf Of David Kaufman Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2014 3:26 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Comments and condolences sent to Carolyn Rankin Hi all, Just a note that I copied and pasted your comments on Bob's death to an attachment that I just sent to Carolyn, his wife. It amounted to 3 pages. I'm sure she'll find solace in the many kind words. Thank you. Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG Fri Feb 28 18:18:59 2014 From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2014 12:18:59 -0600 Subject: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dave, Not sure if you are still into this but I found this today. William Hamilton and Samuel Irvin have on page 33 of their Elementary Book of the Ioway Language: ha-u-ha-mvn-y? ? I always do so This would be: Ha?? hamanyi ha?? ? I do hamanyi ? I walk/I always Here you have both conjugated in the first person using the prefix ?ha-?. There are other examples out there but I need to find them. Hope this helps. Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of David Kaufman Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 12:54 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives Thanks Rory and Justin for the feedback. On another note, I've also been wondering about how serial verbs are handled in Siouan in general. In the Kaw data, when two verbs come together, the second verb always conjugates for person while the first looks like it can either conjugate to match the second verb or it can stay in the third person (neutral) form. I seem to recall that in Biloxi, serial verbs *always* match, first and second verbs having the same person conjugation. What do other Siouan languages do in regards to this? Are there any hard and fast rules about this? Thanks again! Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 5:15 PM, Rory Larson > wrote: Thanks for the analysis, Justin. That makes much better sense than what I had suggested. Very interesting that the Kaw (a)be particle, which should be either cognate or closely related to the Omaha (a)bi particle, can ablaut. I wasn?t aware of that; it?s good to know. Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mcbride, Justin Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 3:00 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives For what it's worth, I believe that what appears to be a second token of aba in the example, aba-daN is actually a different type altogether. In this case, I think it's a case of the verb e(e), 'to say', plus the -(a)be completive aspect marker plus the conjunction -(a)daN, 'and' [e(e)-(a)be-(a)daN > aba-daN]. If so, then, that one really is just 's/he said and,' and the first one is actually the subject marker. But that's not to say that there aren't other examples of the quotative use of subject markers in Ks, even within the same text. Here's an example of quotative akHa: iccikkitaNga akha oo aNs^i waali miNkHe akHa. The Old Man said, "Oh, I'm getting fat." This case is much clearer to my way of thinking because there are two verbal auxiliaries marking the same state (in this case, at rest) back-to-back, one of which refers to 1st person (miNkHe, part of the quotation), and one 3rd person (akHa, marks quotation). It's curious to note that in the audio for this, the speaker laughs after miNkHe and then almost catches her breath before saying akHa, which would indicate to me that she felt it was essential for concluding the sentence. It's interesting to me in that it seems that the entire quoted clause is acting almost like a verb following the canonical pattern (subject) SUBJ (verb) AUX, where SUBJ and AUX match shape in the continuative aspect, as in s^idoz^iNga akHa ghaage akHa, 'the boy is crying.' -jtm On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 1:50 PM, Rory Larson > wrote: Hi Dave, In Omaha and Ponca, the corresponding article is am?, where you have ab?. As with Kaw, it tends to imply ?moving/absent?. But we also have another particle, apparently pronounced the same way, coming at the end of the sentence, that implies that the foregoing is hearsay rather than solid fact. It can stand by itself, or it can be coupled with the ?allegedly? particle bi to make the common ending for 3rd person hearsay action, biama. I notice the accent changes to the first syllable in the second case of your example. I wonder if that could be underlyingly a-aba in that case? The first would be the ablauted version of ?he said it?, followed by either the Old Man?s article ab? or a ?hearsay? particle as in OP. One problem with that would be that the ?hearsay? am? in OP shouldn?t cause a preceding verb to ablaut. My $0.02. Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of David Kaufman Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 1:30 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives Hi all, I have a question re: a curious structure in Kaw, and whether anything like it occurs in other Dhegihan or even non-Dhegihan Siouan languages. The structure involves the articles akh? and ab?, used for subjects in Kaw and usually translated 'the', the first being roughly for 'standing/sitting' and the other for 'moving/absent'. However, in Kaw, these subject articles also somehow seem to have become used as quotatives, or 's/he said.' Here is an example sentence with gloss: Ic?kitanga ab?, ?Any?xtaga-?dan,? ?ba-dan, nanst?be. Old.Man said bite.me-then said-then kicked.him The Old Man said, ?Then bite me,? and he kicked him. So ab?, which is normally used for 'moving' subjects and is usually translated 'the', is now being used for 's/he said.' Any thoughts on this, esp. from other Dhegihan perspectives, or other Siouan languages that might have some similar usage? Thanks! David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Fri Feb 28 18:32:08 2014 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2014 12:32:08 -0600 Subject: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E436C33F6A4D9D@Server6-EX.omtribe.net> Message-ID: Sky, thanks for this! I think I'm going to go through and compile a list of attested Kaw serial verbs and how they're conjugated. Bryan seems to think that there could be a sub-category of serial verbs where the first verb is not conjugated though the second one is. Not sure how far I can get with this, but I may try and present this, at least the Kaw case, as a paper at the SCLC in May. Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program On Fri, Feb 28, 2014 at 12:18 PM, Campbell, Sky wrote: > Dave, > > > > Not sure if you are still into this but I found this today. William > Hamilton and Samuel Irvin have on page 33 of their *Elementary Book of > the Ioway Language*: > > > > ha-u-ha-mvn-y? ? I always do so > > > > This would be: > > > > Ha?? hamanyi > > > > ha?? ? I do > > > > hamanyi ? I walk/I always > > > > Here you have both conjugated in the first person using the prefix ?ha-?. > There are other examples out there but I need to find them. > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > *Sky Campbell, B. A.* > > Language Director > > Otoe-Missouria Tribe > > 580-723-4466 ext. 111 > > sky at omtribe.org > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of > *David Kaufman > > *Sent:* Friday, February 21, 2014 12:54 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > > *Subject:* Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives > > > > Thanks Rory and Justin for the feedback. > > > > On another note, I've also been wondering about how serial verbs are > handled in Siouan in general. In the Kaw data, when two verbs come > together, the second verb always conjugates for person while the first > looks like it can either conjugate to match the second verb or it can stay > in the third person (neutral) form. I seem to recall that in Biloxi, > serial verbs *always* match, first and second verbs having the same person > conjugation. What do other Siouan languages do in regards to this? Are > there any hard and fast rules about this? > > > > Thanks again! > > > > Dave > > > David Kaufman > > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > > > On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 5:15 PM, Rory Larson wrote: > > Thanks for the analysis, Justin. That makes much better sense than what I > had suggested. Very interesting that the Kaw (a)be particle, which should > be either cognate or closely related to the Omaha (a)bi particle, can > ablaut. I wasn?t aware of that; it?s good to know. > > > > Best, > > Rory > > > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of > *Mcbride, Justin > *Sent:* Thursday, February 20, 2014 3:00 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU > *Subject:* Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives > > > > For what it's worth, I believe that what appears to be a second token of > aba in the example, aba-daN is actually a different type altogether. In > this case, I think it's a case of the verb e(e), 'to say', plus the -(a)be > completive aspect marker plus the conjunction -(a)daN, 'and' > [e(e)-(a)be-(a)daN > aba-daN]. If so, then, that one really is just 's/he > said and,' and the first one is actually the subject marker. But that's not > to say that there aren't other examples of the quotative use of subject > markers in Ks, even within the same text. Here's an example of quotative > akHa: > > > > iccikkitaNga akha oo aNs^i waali miNkHe akHa. > > The Old Man said, "Oh, I'm getting fat." > > > > This case is much clearer to my way of thinking because there are two > verbal auxiliaries marking the same state (in this case, at rest) > back-to-back, one of which refers to 1st person (miNkHe, part of the > quotation), and one 3rd person (akHa, marks quotation). It's curious to > note that in the audio for this, the speaker laughs after miNkHe and then > almost catches her breath before saying akHa, which would indicate to me > that she felt it was essential for concluding the sentence. It's > interesting to me in that it seems that the entire quoted clause is acting > almost like a verb following the canonical pattern (subject) SUBJ (verb) > AUX, where SUBJ and AUX match shape in the continuative aspect, as in > s^idoz^iNga akHa ghaage akHa, 'the boy is crying.' > > > > -jtm > > > > On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 1:50 PM, Rory Larson wrote: > > Hi Dave, > > > > In Omaha and Ponca, the corresponding article is am?, where you have ab?. > As with Kaw, it tends to imply ?moving/absent?. But we also have another > particle, apparently pronounced the same way, coming at the end of the > sentence, that implies that the foregoing is hearsay rather than solid > fact. It can stand by itself, or it can be coupled with the ?allegedly? > particle bi to make the common ending for 3rd person hearsay action, > biama. > > > > I notice the accent changes to the first syllable in the second case of > your example. I wonder if that could be underlyingly a-aba in that case? > The first would be the ablauted version of ?he said it?, followed by either > the Old Man?s article ab? or a ?hearsay? particle as in OP. One problem > with that would be that the ?hearsay? am? in OP shouldn?t cause a preceding > verb to ablaut. > > > > My $0.02. > > > > Best, > > Rory > > > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of > *David Kaufman > *Sent:* Thursday, February 20, 2014 1:30 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU > *Subject:* Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives > > > > Hi all, > > > > I have a question re: a curious structure in Kaw, and whether anything > like it occurs in other Dhegihan or even non-Dhegihan Siouan languages. > The structure involves the articles akh? and ab?, used for subjects in Kaw > and usually translated 'the', the first being roughly for > 'standing/sitting' and the other for 'moving/absent'. However, in Kaw, > these subject articles also somehow seem to have become used as quotatives, > or 's/he said.' Here is an example sentence with gloss: > > > > *Ic?kitanga ab?, ?Any?xtaga-?dan,? ?ba-dan, nanst?be.* > > Old.Man said bite.me-then said-then kicked.him > > The Old Man said, ?Then bite me,? and he kicked him. > > > > So ab?, which is normally used for 'moving' subjects and is usually > translated 'the', is now being used for 's/he said.' > > > > Any thoughts on this, esp. from other Dhegihan perspectives, or other > Siouan languages that might have some similar usage? > > > > Thanks! > > > > > David Kaufman > > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > > > > > ?? > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lcumberl at INDIANA.EDU Fri Feb 28 20:33:26 2014 From: lcumberl at INDIANA.EDU (Cumberland, Linda A) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2014 15:33:26 -0500 Subject: Comments and condolences sent to Carolyn Rankin In-Reply-To: <530F75670200008E000AC251@hermes.wsc.edu> Message-ID: In fact, I have been corresponding with Carolyn about this. I will be sending a tidied-up version of these comments to her (eliminating repetitions, email addresses, footers, etc) so she can have the out for others to appreciate at the memorial gathering next week. I'll be sending these to her tomorrow, in case anyone else out there would like to include a message. Linda Quoting Catherine Rudin : > Good idea, Dave. Thanks. > >>>> "Greer, Jill" 02/27/14 4:55 PM >>> > Hi, Dave, > That was very kind * thank you for thinking of that. > Jill > > From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu]On Behalf Of > David Kaufman > Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2014 3:26 PM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Comments and condolences sent to Carolyn Rankin > > Hi all, > > > Just a note that I copied and pasted your comments on Bob's death to an > attachment that I just sent to Carolyn, his wife. It amounted to 3 > pages. I'm sure she'll find solace in the many kind words. Thank you. > > > > Dave > > > > David Kaufman > > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > > > > > > > This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject > to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended > for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended > recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of > the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by > law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please > notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). > From linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU Fri Feb 28 20:41:14 2014 From: linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU (Bryan James Gordon) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2014 13:41:14 -0700 Subject: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Really, there are many different configurations of verbs-in-a-row with respect to which ones are conjugated for what. I say "verbs-in-a-row" in order to avoid the issue of precisely determining what are "serial verbs" as opposed to other types of constructions, and the separate but related issue of figuring out what the appropriate classification is in Siouan languages vis-?-vis linguistic theory in general. Some more examples from Um??ho? ?ye and P??ka ?ye: *"verb plus grammaticalised auxiliary"* I would include in this category any use of the positionals as an auxiliary, certainly as a continuative or future-tense marker, possibly as evidential too. *In these examples the main verb DOES receive subject inflection in Um??ho? ?ye or P??ka ?ye.* ?ye-ak?a "S/he [prominent figure] is speaking" ith?e-mi?k?e "I am speaking" a?th??e-ta?gat?a? "we are going to speak" (ta?gat?a? = te "potential" + a?gat?a? which is the "we" form of t?a? "standing positional") *"verb plus not-quite-as-grammaticalised auxiliary"* This includes examples like the one Sky just posted from B?xoje Ich^?, in which the auxiliary is something that can also serve as a main verb. *In these examples the main verb receives subject pronominals, but NOT plural/proximate marking in Um??ho? ?ye or P??ka ?ye.* ?ye na?zh??i "S/he [prominent figure] is about to speak / is speaking as s/he stands" *not *?ya na?zh??i as it would be if the main verb were inflected for number/proximacy* an??'a? ma?bth?? "I am listening as I walk" *not *na?'?? ma?bth?? as it would be if the main verb did not get its subject pronominal* *"desire-raising"* Um??ho? ?ye and P??ka ?ye raise the subject of the complement clause of g??tha "desire" to the syntactic object of g??tha. The complement verb gets subject inflection for the same argument, so the argument appears twice. Shk? wik??btha "I want you to come back" *not *g? wik??btha as it would be if the complement verb were uninflected, and not *shk? k??btha as it would be if there were no raising* *As in the "not-quite-as-grammaticalised auxiliary" examples, "desire-raising" constructions have number/proximacy marking only on the final verb, not on the complement verb.* wach?gaxe ew?ko?btha "I want them to dance" ("Adventures of the orphan", JOD 1890:601.5) *not *wach?gaxa(i) ew?ko?btha as it would be if the complement verb had number marking* *"command-raising"* Unlike "desire-raising", the complement of ?gazhi "command" is not inflected at all. un??'a? a?th?gazhi "you told me to hear about it" *not *u?na?'a? a?th?gazhi as it would be if the complement verb were inflected* The distinction between the "desire-raising" and "command-raising" categories is what I was referring to with my vague talk about subcategorisation. I expect there are many more members of both categories, and more complications that I have not reported, and more categories that I have either not discovered or have simply escaped me. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU Fri Feb 28 20:43:51 2014 From: linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU (Bryan James Gordon) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2014 13:43:51 -0700 Subject: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: (And of course, as the syntacticians will rightly point out, the "command-raising" is not raising at all, but control. I'm more interested in figuring what types of verbs-in-a-row there are, though, and avoiding terminological debates.) 2014-02-28 13:41 GMT-07:00 Bryan James Gordon : > Really, there are many different configurations of verbs-in-a-row with > respect to which ones are conjugated for what. I say "verbs-in-a-row" in > order to avoid the issue of precisely determining what are "serial verbs" > as opposed to other types of constructions, and the separate but related > issue of figuring out what the appropriate classification is in Siouan > languages vis-?-vis linguistic theory in general. > > Some more examples from Um??ho? ?ye and P??ka ?ye: > > *"verb plus grammaticalised auxiliary"* > I would include in this category any use of the positionals as an > auxiliary, certainly as a continuative or future-tense marker, possibly as > evidential too. *In these examples the main verb DOES receive subject > inflection in Um??ho? ?ye or P??ka ?ye.* > ?ye-ak?a "S/he [prominent figure] is speaking" > ith?e-mi?k?e "I am speaking" > a?th??e-ta?gat?a? "we are going to speak" (ta?gat?a? = te "potential" + > a?gat?a? which is the "we" form of t?a? "standing positional") > > *"verb plus not-quite-as-grammaticalised auxiliary"* > This includes examples like the one Sky just posted from B?xoje Ich^?, in > which the auxiliary is something that can also serve as a main verb. *In > these examples the main verb receives subject pronominals, but NOT > plural/proximate marking in Um??ho? ?ye or P??ka ?ye.* > ?ye na?zh??i "S/he [prominent figure] is about to speak / is speaking as > s/he stands" *not *?ya na?zh??i as it would be if the main verb were > inflected for number/proximacy* > an??'a? ma?bth?? "I am listening as I walk" *not *na?'?? ma?bth?? as it > would be if the main verb did not get its subject pronominal* > > *"desire-raising"* > Um??ho? ?ye and P??ka ?ye raise the subject of the complement clause of > g??tha "desire" to the syntactic object of g??tha. The complement verb gets > subject inflection for the same argument, so the argument appears twice. > Shk? wik??btha "I want you to come back" *not *g? wik??btha as it would > be if the complement verb were uninflected, and not *shk? k??btha as it > would be if there were no raising* > *As in the "not-quite-as-grammaticalised auxiliary" examples, > "desire-raising" constructions have number/proximacy marking only on the > final verb, not on the complement verb.* > wach?gaxe ew?ko?btha "I want them to dance" ("Adventures of the orphan", > JOD 1890:601.5) *not *wach?gaxa(i) ew?ko?btha as it would be if the > complement verb had number marking* > > *"command-raising"* > Unlike "desire-raising", the complement of ?gazhi "command" is not > inflected at all. > un??'a? a?th?gazhi "you told me to hear about it" *not *u?na?'a? > a?th?gazhi as it would be if the complement verb were inflected* > > The distinction between the "desire-raising" and "command-raising" > categories is what I was referring to with my vague talk about > subcategorisation. I expect there are many more members of both categories, > and more complications that I have not reported, and more categories that I > have either not discovered or have simply escaped me. > -- *********************************************************** Bryan James Gordon, MA Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology University of Arizona *********************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU Fri Feb 28 20:48:38 2014 From: linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU (Bryan James Gordon) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2014 13:48:38 -0700 Subject: Sad news In-Reply-To: <648EA97C82564942966A950E5E5BAD79957CEAD9@SDSU-EX03.jacks.local> Message-ID: This is truly heartbreaking news. Bob was surely the greatest respository of linguistic knowledge in our tiny little world, and was gregarious in sharing his knowledge with everybody - community members, baby linguists, interviewers, anybody who wanted to learn. It seems he did and wrote more work on Siouan languages than all the rest of us put together, and to top it off he was a kind and beautiful human being with a delightful wit. I am shocked that I won't be getting to see him again this year, but glad for all the times I did see him and catch little pieces of his wisdom. My deepest condolences to Bob's loved ones, of whom he has a great many. Washk??iga ho! Bryan 2014-02-26 19:34 GMT-07:00 Danker, Kathleen : > I am so sorry to hear this. Bob was such a kind man and brilliant > scholar. > > Kathleen Danker > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of > *David Kaufman > *Sent:* Monday, February 24, 2014 2:01 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Sad news > > > > Dear all, > > It is with much sadness that I let you know that Dr. Robert Rankin has > passed away. I don't have any further details at this time, but I can pass > on more info once I know more. The Kaw Nation was just contacted within > the last couple of hours about his passing. > > I am extremely grateful that I got to visit Bob a couple of weeks ago. > > Sincerely, > > Dave > > David Kaufman > > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > -- *********************************************************** Bryan James Gordon, MA Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology University of Arizona *********************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.rood at COLORADO.EDU Fri Feb 28 22:24:35 2014 From: david.rood at COLORADO.EDU (ROOD DAVID S) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2014 15:24:35 -0700 Subject: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dave, while you're at this, keep an eye open for the following. Several people have noted (not sure whether published or not) that Lakota complements to verbs that require same-subject for both verbs (e.g. 'try') do not allow affixes on the first verb, while those which permit a change of subject (like 'want') do require that both verbs be marked. It seems like a really logical pattern, so I expect you'll find it true in Kaw as well. Best, David David S. Rood Dept. of Linguistics Univ. of Colorado 295 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0295 USA rood at colorado.edu On Fri, 28 Feb 2014, David Kaufman wrote: > Sky, thanks for this! I think I'm going to go through and compile a list > of attested Kaw serial verbs and how they're conjugated. Bryan seems to > think that there could be a sub-category of serial verbs where the first > verb is not conjugated though the second one is. Not sure how far I can > get with this, but I may try and present this, at least the Kaw case, as a > paper at the SCLC in May. > > Dave > > David Kaufman > Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas > Director, Kaw Nation Language Program > > > On Fri, Feb 28, 2014 at 12:18 PM, Campbell, Sky wrote: > >> Dave, >> >> >> >> Not sure if you are still into this but I found this today. William >> Hamilton and Samuel Irvin have on page 33 of their *Elementary Book of >> the Ioway Language*: >> >> >> >> ha-u-ha-mvn-y?? ??? I always do so >> >> >> >> This would be: >> >> >> >> Ha????? hamanyi >> >> >> >> ha????? ??? I do >> >> >> >> hamanyi ??? I walk/I always >> >> >> >> Here you have both conjugated in the first person using the prefix ???ha-???. >> There are other examples out there but I need to find them. >> >> >> >> Hope this helps. >> >> >> >> *Sky Campbell, B. A.* >> >> Language Director >> >> Otoe-Missouria Tribe >> >> 580-723-4466 ext. 111 >> >> sky at omtribe.org >> >> >> >> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of >> *David Kaufman >> >> *Sent:* Friday, February 21, 2014 12:54 PM >> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu >> >> *Subject:* Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives >> >> >> >> Thanks Rory and Justin for the feedback. >> >> >> >> On another note, I've also been wondering about how serial verbs are >> handled in Siouan in general. In the Kaw data, when two verbs come >> together, the second verb always conjugates for person while the first >> looks like it can either conjugate to match the second verb or it can stay >> in the third person (neutral) form. I seem to recall that in Biloxi, >> serial verbs *always* match, first and second verbs having the same person >> conjugation. What do other Siouan languages do in regards to this? Are >> there any hard and fast rules about this? >> >> >> >> Thanks again! >> >> >> >> Dave >> >> >> David Kaufman >> >> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >> >> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >> >> >> >> On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 5:15 PM, Rory Larson wrote: >> >> Thanks for the analysis, Justin. That makes much better sense than what I >> had suggested. Very interesting that the Kaw (a)be particle, which should >> be either cognate or closely related to the Omaha (a)bi particle, can >> ablaut. I wasn???t aware of that; it???s good to know. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Rory >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of >> *Mcbride, Justin >> *Sent:* Thursday, February 20, 2014 3:00 PM >> *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU >> *Subject:* Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives >> >> >> >> For what it's worth, I believe that what appears to be a second token of >> aba in the example, aba-daN is actually a different type altogether. In >> this case, I think it's a case of the verb e(e), 'to say', plus the -(a)be >> completive aspect marker plus the conjunction -(a)daN, 'and' >> [e(e)-(a)be-(a)daN > aba-daN]. If so, then, that one really is just 's/he >> said and,' and the first one is actually the subject marker. But that's not >> to say that there aren't other examples of the quotative use of subject >> markers in Ks, even within the same text. Here's an example of quotative >> akHa: >> >> >> >> iccikkitaNga akha oo aNs^i waali miNkHe akHa. >> >> The Old Man said, "Oh, I'm getting fat." >> >> >> >> This case is much clearer to my way of thinking because there are two >> verbal auxiliaries marking the same state (in this case, at rest) >> back-to-back, one of which refers to 1st person (miNkHe, part of the >> quotation), and one 3rd person (akHa, marks quotation). It's curious to >> note that in the audio for this, the speaker laughs after miNkHe and then >> almost catches her breath before saying akHa, which would indicate to me >> that she felt it was essential for concluding the sentence. It's >> interesting to me in that it seems that the entire quoted clause is acting >> almost like a verb following the canonical pattern (subject) SUBJ (verb) >> AUX, where SUBJ and AUX match shape in the continuative aspect, as in >> s^idoz^iNga akHa ghaage akHa, 'the boy is crying.' >> >> >> >> -jtm >> >> >> >> On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 1:50 PM, Rory Larson wrote: >> >> Hi Dave, >> >> >> >> In Omaha and Ponca, the corresponding article is am??, where you have ab??. >> As with Kaw, it tends to imply ???moving/absent???. But we also have another >> particle, apparently pronounced the same way, coming at the end of the >> sentence, that implies that the foregoing is hearsay rather than solid >> fact. It can stand by itself, or it can be coupled with the ???allegedly??? >> particle bi to make the common ending for 3rd person hearsay action, >> biama. >> >> >> >> I notice the accent changes to the first syllable in the second case of >> your example. I wonder if that could be underlyingly a-aba in that case? >> The first would be the ablauted version of ???he said it???, followed by either >> the Old Man???s article ab?? or a ???hearsay??? particle as in OP. One problem >> with that would be that the ???hearsay??? am?? in OP shouldn???t cause a preceding >> verb to ablaut. >> >> >> >> My $0.02. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Rory >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of >> *David Kaufman >> *Sent:* Thursday, February 20, 2014 1:30 PM >> *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU >> *Subject:* Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives >> >> >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> I have a question re: a curious structure in Kaw, and whether anything >> like it occurs in other Dhegihan or even non-Dhegihan Siouan languages. >> The structure involves the articles akh?? and ab??, used for subjects in Kaw >> and usually translated 'the', the first being roughly for >> 'standing/sitting' and the other for 'moving/absent'. However, in Kaw, >> these subject articles also somehow seem to have become used as quotatives, >> or 's/he said.' Here is an example sentence with gloss: >> >> >> >> *Ic??kitanga ab??, ???Any??xtaga-??dan,??? ??ba-dan, nanst??be.* >> >> Old.Man said bite.me-then said-then kicked.him >> >> The Old Man said, ???Then bite me,??? and he kicked him. >> >> >> >> So ab??, which is normally used for 'moving' subjects and is usually >> translated 'the', is now being used for 's/he said.' >> >> >> >> Any thoughts on this, esp. from other Dhegihan perspectives, or other >> Siouan languages that might have some similar usage? >> >> >> >> Thanks! >> >> >> >> >> David Kaufman >> >> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas >> >> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program >> >> >> >> >> >> ???? >> > From sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Fri Feb 28 23:27:24 2014 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM (Sky Campbell) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2014 17:27:24 -0600 Subject: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Compiling a list of these is on my "to do" list. I've seen them before but never knew what to call them. I know of examples like "bring" which roughly translates to "have - come" so I decided to see if I could find it. While looking in Dorsey's material, I found a serial verb composed of three verbs and each of them conjugated. Here it is as Dorsey documented it: a-nyi-hi-re - to have gone out of sight with any thing; to have taken any thing away Here are the three verbs: anyi - have hi - arrive there re - go His conjugation for the 2nd person singular came out as (respelled in our system): asd? rahi sre asd? - you have rahi - you arrive there sre - you go He has a load of these that would need to be gone over to see if all of them are conjugated this way but this is interesting nonetheless. I haven't come across a succession of three verbs like this before until now. A quick scan shows more "three verb" serial verbs. "Command raising" verbs was mentioned. What exactly are those? I'm also curious how (if any) valence-reducing affixes come into play here. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of David Kaufman Sent: Friday, February 28, 2014 12:32 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives Sky, thanks for this! I think I'm going to go through and compile a list of attested Kaw serial verbs and how they're conjugated. Bryan seems to think that there could be a sub-category of serial verbs where the first verb is not conjugated though the second one is. Not sure how far I can get with this, but I may try and present this, at least the Kaw case, as a paper at the SCLC in May. Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program On Fri, Feb 28, 2014 at 12:18 PM, Campbell, Sky wrote: Dave, Not sure if you are still into this but I found this today. William Hamilton and Samuel Irvin have on page 33 of their Elementary Book of the Ioway Language: ha-u-ha-mvn-y? ? I always do so This would be: Ha?? hamanyi ha?? ? I do hamanyi ? I walk/I always Here you have both conjugated in the first person using the prefix ?ha-?. There are other examples out there but I need to find them. Hope this helps. Sky Campbell, B. A. Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe 580-723-4466 ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of David Kaufman Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 12:54 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives Thanks Rory and Justin for the feedback. On another note, I've also been wondering about how serial verbs are handled in Siouan in general. In the Kaw data, when two verbs come together, the second verb always conjugates for person while the first looks like it can either conjugate to match the second verb or it can stay in the third person (neutral) form. I seem to recall that in Biloxi, serial verbs *always* match, first and second verbs having the same person conjugation. What do other Siouan languages do in regards to this? Are there any hard and fast rules about this? Thanks again! Dave David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 5:15 PM, Rory Larson wrote: Thanks for the analysis, Justin. That makes much better sense than what I had suggested. Very interesting that the Kaw (a)be particle, which should be either cognate or closely related to the Omaha (a)bi particle, can ablaut. I wasn?t aware of that; it?s good to know. Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mcbride, Justin Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 3:00 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives For what it's worth, I believe that what appears to be a second token of aba in the example, aba-daN is actually a different type altogether. In this case, I think it's a case of the verb e(e), 'to say', plus the -(a)be completive aspect marker plus the conjunction -(a)daN, 'and' [e(e)-(a)be-(a)daN > aba-daN]. If so, then, that one really is just 's/he said and,' and the first one is actually the subject marker. But that's not to say that there aren't other examples of the quotative use of subject markers in Ks, even within the same text. Here's an example of quotative akHa: iccikkitaNga akha oo aNs^i waali miNkHe akHa. The Old Man said, "Oh, I'm getting fat." This case is much clearer to my way of thinking because there are two verbal auxiliaries marking the same state (in this case, at rest) back-to-back, one of which refers to 1st person (miNkHe, part of the quotation), and one 3rd person (akHa, marks quotation). It's curious to note that in the audio for this, the speaker laughs after miNkHe and then almost catches her breath before saying akHa, which would indicate to me that she felt it was essential for concluding the sentence. It's interesting to me in that it seems that the entire quoted clause is acting almost like a verb following the canonical pattern (subject) SUBJ (verb) AUX, where SUBJ and AUX match shape in the continuative aspect, as in s^idoz^iNga akHa ghaage akHa, 'the boy is crying.' -jtm On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 1:50 PM, Rory Larson wrote: Hi Dave, In Omaha and Ponca, the corresponding article is am?, where you have ab?. As with Kaw, it tends to imply ?moving/absent?. But we also have another particle, apparently pronounced the same way, coming at the end of the sentence, that implies that the foregoing is hearsay rather than solid fact. It can stand by itself, or it can be coupled with the ?allegedly? particle bi to make the common ending for 3rd person hearsay action, biama. I notice the accent changes to the first syllable in the second case of your example. I wonder if that could be underlyingly a-aba in that case? The first would be the ablauted version of ?he said it?, followed by either the Old Man?s article ab? or a ?hearsay? particle as in OP. One problem with that would be that the ?hearsay? am? in OP shouldn?t cause a preceding verb to ablaut. My $0.02. Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of David Kaufman Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 1:30 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives Hi all, I have a question re: a curious structure in Kaw, and whether anything like it occurs in other Dhegihan or even non-Dhegihan Siouan languages. The structure involves the articles akh? and ab?, used for subjects in Kaw and usually translated 'the', the first being roughly for 'standing/sitting' and the other for 'moving/absent'. However, in Kaw, these subject articles also somehow seem to have become used as quotatives, or 's/he said.' Here is an example sentence with gloss: Ic?kitanga ab?, ?Any?xtaga-?dan,? ?ba-dan, nanst?be. Old.Man said bite.me-then said-then kicked.him The Old Man said, ?Then bite me,? and he kicked him. So ab?, which is normally used for 'moving' subjects and is usually translated 'the', is now being used for 's/he said.' Any thoughts on this, esp. from other Dhegihan perspectives, or other Siouan languages that might have some similar usage? Thanks! David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program ?? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: