Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives

Sat Feb 22 18:30:35 UTC 2014

That is interesting, Bryan!

Dave

David Kaufman
Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas
Director, Kaw Nation Language Program

On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 3:22 PM, Bryan James Gordon <linguista at gmail.com>wrote:

> Digging through 19th century Omaha and Ponca texts I've found evidence for
> a role for subcategorization, that is, some final verbs in some contexts
> tend to follow conjugated verbs, while
> others tend to follow "infinitives". Our resident syntacticians may have
> more precise observations. Catherine?
> On Feb 21, 2014 1:04 PM, "David Kaufman" <dvkanth2010 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Rory,
>>
>> So it seems like both forms conjugated may have been the original method
>> (pre-20th century), but, perhaps due to the increasing influence of
>> English, it can now be just final verb?  Interesting how these things come
>> about.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> David Kaufman
>> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas
>> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 1:28 PM, Rory Larson <rlarson1 at unl.edu> wrote:
>>
>>>  Dave,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What you describe for Kaw seems to be what my experience with Omaha has
>>> been.  As I recall, elicited statements usually have the first verb in
>>> neutral form, but if you ask the speakers which way is better, giving both
>>> options, they generally prefer the one with both verbs conjugated.  I think
>>> the latter is the way it normally appears in Dorsey (19th century).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Of course, the real power of the old (?) system is that the first verb
>>> can conjugate for different subjects and objects than the second one, as in
>>> "I want you to give me the toy" = Toy-the me-you-give I-want.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Rory
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf
>>> Of *David Kaufman
>>> *Sent:* Friday, February 21, 2014 12:54 PM
>>>
>>> *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU
>>> *Subject:* Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks Rory and Justin for the feedback.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On another note, I've also been wondering about how serial verbs are
>>> handled in Siouan in general.  In the Kaw data, when two verbs come
>>> together, the second verb always conjugates for person while the first
>>> looks like it can either conjugate to match the second verb or it can stay
>>> in the third person (neutral) form.  I seem to recall that in Biloxi,
>>> serial verbs *always* match, first and second verbs having the same person
>>> conjugation.  What do other Siouan languages do in regards to this?  Are
>>> there any hard and fast rules about this?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks again!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>>
>>>   David Kaufman
>>>
>>> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas
>>>
>>> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 5:15 PM, Rory Larson <rlarson1 at unl.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks for the analysis, Justin.  That makes much better sense than what
>>> I had suggested.  Very interesting that the Kaw (a)be particle, which
>>> should be either cognate or closely related to the Omaha (a)bi particle,
>>> can ablaut.  I wasn't aware of that; it's good to know.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Rory
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf
>>> Of *Mcbride, Justin
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, February 20, 2014 3:00 PM
>>> *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU
>>> *Subject:* Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> For what it's worth, I believe that what appears to be a second token of
>>> aba in the example, aba-daN is actually a different type altogether. In
>>> this case, I think it's a case of the verb e(e), 'to say', plus the -(a)be
>>> completive aspect marker plus the conjunction -(a)daN, 'and'
>>> [e(e)-(a)be-(a)daN > aba-daN]. If so, then, that one really is just 's/he
>>> said and,' and the first one is actually the subject marker. But that's not
>>> to say that there aren't other examples of the quotative use of subject
>>> markers in Ks, even within the same text. Here's an example of quotative
>>> akHa:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> iccikkitaNga akha oo aNs^i waali miNkHe akHa.
>>>
>>> The Old Man said, "Oh, I'm getting fat."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This case is much clearer to my way of thinking because there are two
>>> verbal auxiliaries marking the same state (in this case, at rest)
>>> back-to-back, one of which refers to 1st person (miNkHe, part of the
>>> quotation), and one 3rd person (akHa, marks quotation). It's curious to
>>> note that in the audio for this, the speaker laughs after miNkHe and then
>>> almost catches her breath before saying akHa, which would indicate to me
>>> that she felt it was essential for concluding the sentence. It's
>>> interesting to me in that it seems that the entire quoted clause is acting
>>> almost like a verb following the canonical pattern (subject) SUBJ (verb)
>>> AUX, where SUBJ and AUX match shape in the continuative aspect, as in
>>> s^idoz^iNga akHa ghaage akHa, 'the boy is crying.'
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -jtm
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 1:50 PM, Rory Larson <rlarson1 at unl.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Dave,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In Omaha and Ponca, the corresponding article is amá, where you have
>>> abá.  As with Kaw, it tends to imply 'moving/absent'.  But we also have
>>> another particle, apparently pronounced the same way, coming at the end of
>>> the sentence, that implies that the foregoing is hearsay rather than solid
>>> fact.  It can stand by itself, or it can be coupled with the 'allegedly'
>>> particle bi to make the common ending for 3rd person hearsay action,
>>> biama.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I notice the accent changes to the first syllable in the second case of
>>> your example.  I wonder if that could be underlyingly a-aba in that case?
>>> The first would be the ablauted version of 'he said it', followed by either
>>> the Old Man's article abá or a 'hearsay' particle as in OP.  One problem
>>> with that would be that the 'hearsay' amá in OP shouldn't cause a preceding
>>> verb to ablaut.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> My $0.02.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Rory
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf
>>> Of *David Kaufman
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, February 20, 2014 1:30 PM
>>> *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU
>>> *Subject:* Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I have a question re: a curious structure in Kaw, and whether anything
>>> like it occurs in other Dhegihan or even non-Dhegihan Siouan languages.
>>>  The structure involves the articles akhá and abá, used for subjects in Kaw
>>> and usually translated 'the', the first being roughly for
>>> 'standing/sitting' and the other for 'moving/absent'.  However, in Kaw,
>>> these subject articles also somehow seem to have become used as quotatives,
>>> or 's/he said.'  Here is an example sentence with gloss:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Icíkitanga  abá, "Anyáxtaga-édan," ába-dan,  nanstábe.*
>>>
>>> Old.Man   said   bite.me-then          said-then   kicked.him
>>>
>>> The Old Man said, "Then bite me," and he kicked him.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So abá, which is normally used for 'moving' subjects and is usually
>>> translated 'the', is now being used for 's/he said.'
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Any thoughts on this, esp. from other Dhegihan perspectives, or other
>>> Siouan languages that might have some similar usage?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   David Kaufman
>>>
>>> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas
>>>
>>> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
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