From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Wed Jul 2 16:31:33 2014 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm G. GoodTracks) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2014 11:31:33 -0500 Subject: Analysis of an Ioway name Message-ID: Can anyone figure out the analysis of the Ioway name of a small boy, who with his father, traveled to Europe in the early 1800’s with George Catlin. The name was written as seen below and given the gloss of “Commanding General.” The word “wadánwe” could very well be the first part, but I come up with nothing for the last part of the name. There is: búkara n. dry (as a river or creek) (LzH), which I do not believe to fit here. Watawebukana, “Commanding General”, ÑíyuMañi (Raining’s son). wadánwe ~ wádanwe n/adj/v.i. give, pay attention; mindfull(ness), regardful; heed, take heed; aware, be aware; note, take notice; concentration. **SEE: wadána. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wipamankere at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jul 2 16:56:49 2014 From: wipamankere at HOTMAIL.COM (Iren Hartmann) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2014 11:56:49 -0500 Subject: Analysis of an Ioway name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jimm, the only thing that comes to mind is the Hoocąk word hirukąną ’control, be in charge of (v.tr.); boss (n.)’ Could they be cognate? rukąną on the other hand is ’to woo, or court someone’. Best, Iren Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2014 11:31:33 -0500 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Subject: Analysis of an Ioway name To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Can anyone figure out the analysis of the Ioway name of a small boy, who with his father, traveled to Europe in the early 1800’s with George Catlin. The name was written as seen below and given the gloss of “Commanding General.” The word “wadánwe” could very well be the first part, but I come up with nothing for the last part of the name. There is: búkara n. dry (as a river or creek) (LzH), which I do not believe to fit here. Watawebukana, “Commanding General”, ÑíyuMañi (Raining’s son). wadánwe ~ wádanwe n/adj/v.i. give, pay attention; mindfull(ness), regardful; heed, take heed; aware, be aware; note, take notice; concentration. **SEE: wadána. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG Wed Jul 2 17:03:13 2014 From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2014 12:03:13 -0500 Subject: Analysis of an Ioway name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My friend and I went over these names a week or so ago while working on some others (old Missouria names). My take on this name was that it was a variation of: Wexa Wirugrą But that is assuming the "t" can be swapped out for an "x". I'm not sure why there is a "b" in there (typo perhaps?). At any rate, I thought the same that Irene did...something to do with being the "best ruler" or "best commander". Sky Campbell Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Iren Hartmann Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2014 11:57 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Analysis of an Ioway name Jimm, the only thing that comes to mind is the Hoocąk word hirukąną ’control, be in charge of (v.tr.); boss (n.)’ Could they be cognate? rukąną on the other hand is ’to woo, or court someone’. Best, Iren ________________________________ Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2014 11:31:33 -0500 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Subject: Analysis of an Ioway name To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Can anyone figure out the analysis of the Ioway name of a small boy, who with his father, traveled to Europe in the early 1800’s with George Catlin. The name was written as seen below and given the gloss of “Commanding General.” The word “wadánwe” could very well be the first part, but I come up with nothing for the last part of the name. There is: búkara n. dry (as a river or creek) (LzH), which I do not believe to fit here. Watawebukana, “Commanding General”, ÑíyuMañi (Raining’s son). wadánwe ~ wádanwe n/adj/v.i. give, pay attention; mindfull(ness), regardful; heed, take heed; aware, be aware; note, take notice; concentration. **SEE: wadána. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG Wed Jul 2 17:10:07 2014 From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2014 12:10:07 -0500 Subject: Analysis of an Ioway name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Oh, and I forgot to mention that I based my "wexa" idea on the name above that one in Catlin's book which he has as "Wa-tan-ye" with the French being, "Celui qui est toujours en avant" (one who is always ahead). I immediately thought of the name "Wexa Nayį" (Standing Ahead). Plus the alternate spellings in parentheses helped me put that together. The character "ä̇" gave me the idea that the first syllable in those names needed to be "we". [cid:image001.jpg at 01CF95EE.90291400] Sky Campbell Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Iren Hartmann Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2014 11:57 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Analysis of an Ioway name Jimm, the only thing that comes to mind is the Hoocąk word hirukąną ’control, be in charge of (v.tr.); boss (n.)’ Could they be cognate? rukąną on the other hand is ’to woo, or court someone’. Best, Iren ________________________________ Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2014 11:31:33 -0500 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Subject: Analysis of an Ioway name To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Can anyone figure out the analysis of the Ioway name of a small boy, who with his father, traveled to Europe in the early 1800’s with George Catlin. The name was written as seen below and given the gloss of “Commanding General.” The word “wadánwe” could very well be the first part, but I come up with nothing for the last part of the name. There is: búkara n. dry (as a river or creek) (LzH), which I do not believe to fit here. Watawebukana, “Commanding General”, ÑíyuMañi (Raining’s son). wadánwe ~ wádanwe n/adj/v.i. give, pay attention; mindfull(ness), regardful; heed, take heed; aware, be aware; note, take notice; concentration. **SEE: wadána. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 33207 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Guerriers et Braves.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 102084 bytes Desc: Guerriers et Braves.jpg URL: From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Wed Jul 2 18:23:49 2014 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm G. GoodTracks) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2014 13:23:49 -0500 Subject: Analysis of an Ioway name In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E436C33FD06A39@Server6-EX.omtribe.net> Message-ID: Trying to get “wexa” out of “wata....” is a bit of a stretch. But I can see a “eta” with a “w-“ worked in there: éta; éta (GM); étada adv. beyond; farther away. Dagúra^unna étada ramínada wáŋe t^ána ranáxun škúñi je, Why did you sit farther away where you could not hear the speaker? Then I can see a “wirúgranna” following. From: Campbell, Sky Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2014 12:10 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Analysis of an Ioway name Oh, and I forgot to mention that I based my "wexa" idea on the name above that one in Catlin's book which he has as "Wa-tan-ye" with the French being, "Celui qui est toujours en avant" (one who is always ahead). I immediately thought of the name "Wexa Nayį" (Standing Ahead). Plus the alternate spellings in parentheses helped me put that together. The character "ä̇" gave me the idea that the first syllable in those names needed to be "we". Sky Campbell Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Iren Hartmann Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2014 11:57 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Analysis of an Ioway name Jimm, the only thing that comes to mind is the Hoocąk word hirukąną ’control, be in charge of (v.tr.); boss (n.)’ Could they be cognate? rukąną on the other hand is ’to woo, or court someone’. Best, Iren -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2014 11:31:33 -0500 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Subject: Analysis of an Ioway name To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Can anyone figure out the analysis of the Ioway name of a small boy, who with his father, traveled to Europe in the early 1800’s with George Catlin. The name was written as seen below and given the gloss of “Commanding General.” The word “wadánwe” could very well be the first part, but I come up with nothing for the last part of the name. There is: búkara n. dry (as a river or creek) (LzH), which I do not believe to fit here. Watawebukana, “Commanding General”, ÑíyuMañi (Raining’s son). wadánwe ~ wádanwe n/adj/v.i. give, pay attention; mindfull(ness), regardful; heed, take heed; aware, be aware; note, take notice; concentration. **SEE: wadána. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. ­­ -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 33207 bytes Desc: not available URL: From WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU Tue Jul 8 20:34:15 2014 From: WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU (De Reuse, Willem) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2014 20:34:15 +0000 Subject: 2015 SCLC in Louisiana In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Jean-Luc: Sorry to have missed you at Colang. I could only come for one day. Keep us informed about your interests in the Ofo language. Very best wishes, Willem ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics on behalf of Jean-Luc Pierite Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 10:20 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: 2015 SCLC in Louisiana Hi Willem: I am actually currently at CoLang at UT Arlington until Saturday. I'm more related to Rosa's husband, Ernest. Though, Rosa will play a big part as we open up our effort to Ofo. Look forward to talking more with each of you! On Wednesday, June 25, 2014, De Reuse, Willem > wrote: Dear Jean-Luc: Thanks for introducing yourself. I am based near Dallas, and that is a good day's drive from Marksville, so I definitely want to come to Marksville. Are you by any chance related to Rosa Pierite, the last speaker of Ofo? I am a big fan! Willem de Reuse ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics on behalf of Jean-Luc Pierite Sent: Monday, June 23, 2014 8:04 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: 2015 SCLC in Louisiana Hello all, Just jumping in on the conversation about 2015 SCLC in Louisiana. I should also introduce myself. I am Jean-Luc Pierite, a member of the Tunica-Biloxi Tribe. My family assisted Dave in his revision of the Biloxi Dictionary. My immediate family's involvement in language and culture preservation for the tribe goes back almost 40 years. My mom, Donna M. Pierite, and my sister, Elisabeth Pierite-Mora, both join me in looking forward to helping you all out with anything at all. Thanks, Jean-Luc Pierite http://about.me/jeanluc.pierite -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Thanks, Jean-Luc Pierite http://about.me/jeanluc.pierite -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Fri Jul 11 19:41:13 2014 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2014 19:41:13 +0000 Subject: Photos In-Reply-To: Message-ID: That’s a very nice marker, Kathy, and the inscriptions are perfectly readable in the photos. Thanks for sharing! Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Kathleen Shea Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 2:30 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Photos Hi all, I'm sending some photos of Bob Rankin's grave marker at the Washunga Cemetery in the area of Newkirk, Oklahoma. I was unable to attend the memorial service a couple of weeks ago, but I'm here in Ponca City now and was able to take these photos. It was hard to get the sun on the face of the stone, as it faces southwest, but I did my best in two trips. It's a very impressive stone marker situated under a permanent arbor. I hope you can read the inscriptions, which are in both Kansa and English. I'm using the voice feature on my smart phone (with a little editing), so please excuse any errors. Kathy Shea -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Fri Jul 11 20:13:44 2014 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm G. GoodTracks) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2014 15:13:44 -0500 Subject: Photos In-Reply-To: Message-ID: That was nice, Kathy. Thank You for going to the trouble of sharing these photos with us all. jimm From: Kathleen Shea Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 2:29 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Photos Hi all, I'm sending some photos of Bob Rankin's grave marker at the Washunga Cemetery in the area of Newkirk, Oklahoma. I was unable to attend the memorial service a couple of weeks ago, but I'm here in Ponca City now and was able to take these photos. It was hard to get the sun on the face of the stone, as it faces southwest, but I did my best in two trips. It's a very impressive stone marker situated under a permanent arbor. I hope you can read the inscriptions, which are in both Kansa and English. I'm using the voice feature on my smart phone (with a little editing), so please excuse any errors. Kathy Shea -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kathleendshea at GMAIL.COM Fri Jul 11 19:29:41 2014 From: kathleendshea at GMAIL.COM (Kathleen Shea) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2014 14:29:41 -0500 Subject: Photos In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi all, I'm sending some photos of Bob Rankin's grave marker at the Washunga Cemetery in the area of Newkirk, Oklahoma. I was unable to attend the memorial service a couple of weeks ago, but I'm here in Ponca City now and was able to take these photos. It was hard to get the sun on the face of the stone, as it faces southwest, but I did my best in two trips. It's a very impressive stone marker situated under a permanent arbor. I hope you can read the inscriptions, which are in both Kansa and English. I'm using the voice feature on my smart phone (with a little editing), so please excuse any errors. Kathy Shea -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_20140711_101907629_HDR.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 4158911 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_20140709_124452982_HDR.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 4040764 bytes Desc: not available URL: From shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK Sat Jul 12 14:39:44 2014 From: shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK (bruce Ingham) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2014 15:39:44 +0100 Subject: Photos In-Reply-To: <97A0C299D0644A0CA383D022A694C897@JGAsusPC> Message-ID: It's nice to see that Bob has a Siouan grave marker. Well sone the people who produced it Bruce On 11 Jul 2014, at 21:13, Jimm G. GoodTracks wrote: > That was nice, Kathy. Thank You for going to the trouble of sharing these photos with us all. jimm > > From: Kathleen Shea > Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 2:29 PM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Photos > > Hi all, > I'm sending some photos of Bob Rankin's grave marker at the Washunga Cemetery in the area of Newkirk, Oklahoma. I was unable to attend the memorial service a couple of weeks ago, but I'm here in Ponca City now and was able to take these photos. It was hard to get the sun on the face of the stone, as it faces southwest, but I did my best in two trips. It's a very impressive stone marker situated under a permanent arbor. I hope you can read the inscriptions, which are in both Kansa and English. I'm using the voice feature on my smart phone (with a little editing), so please excuse any errors. > > Kathy Shea > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mary.marino at USASK.CA Sat Jul 12 17:56:50 2014 From: mary.marino at USASK.CA (Mary C Marino) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2014 11:56:50 -0600 Subject: Photos In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks Kathy; it is very nice to see this. Mary On 11/07/2014 1:29 PM, Kathleen Shea wrote: > > Hi all, > I'm sending some photos of Bob Rankin's grave marker at the Washunga > Cemetery in the area of Newkirk, Oklahoma. I was unable to attend the > memorial service a couple of weeks ago, but I'm here in Ponca City now > and was able to take these photos. It was hard to get the sun on the > face of the stone, as it faces southwest, but I did my best in two > trips. It's a very impressive stone marker situated under a permanent > arbor. I hope you can read the inscriptions, which are in both Kansa > and English. I'm using the voice feature on my smart phone (with a > little editing), so please excuse any errors. > > Kathy Shea > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. > listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, > AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Sun Jul 13 20:14:13 2014 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2014 20:14:13 +0000 Subject: Questions about historical pre-aspiration Message-ID: I have a question for the list about the phenomenon of historical pre-aspiration in Siouan and where evidence for it is found. According to some of the notes I have so far read in the Common Siouan Dictionary (CSD, 2006), proto-Siouan-Catawban did not have a distinction between the simple stops and the Siouan pre-aspirated stops. Siouan apparently developed pre-aspirated stops when the stop preceded an accented syllable. In this case, *p- > *hp-, *t > *ht-, and *k > *hk. In the daughter languages, these pre-aspirated stops might stay pre-aspirated, as in Osage, become tense stops (*pp-, *tt-, *kk-) as in Omaha, Ponca and Kaw, or become post-aspirate (*ph-, *th-, *kh-) as in Dakotan, and apparently Ioway-Otoe-Missouria, Ofo and Biloxi (the latter noted only thanks to David Kaufman’s recent Biloxi Dictionary). However, it is also stated that historical pre-aspiration was simply lost in Crow, Hidatsa and Mandan. Apparently, it went away in these languages without showing a trace that it ever existed. I’m left wondering about Hoočaⁿk. In the CSD, IOM historical pre-aspirates seem to be regularly marked with an ‘h’ after them, making them post-aspirates. But the corresponding words in Hoočaⁿk are just as regularly unmarked. Looking in the modern Hoočaⁿk dictionary of Johannes and Iren et. al., that seems to be the case there as well. So does Hoočaⁿk join Missouri Valley Siouan and Mandan in not showing historical pre-aspiration? And in either case, can we be sure that historical pre-aspiration is really a proto-Siouan phenomenon? Or might it only have affected Southeastern and MVS? Thanks for any thoughts. Rory -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Mon Jul 14 19:06:23 2014 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Greer, Jill) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2014 19:06:23 +0000 Subject: Photos In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks Kathy! What a lovely memorial for our dear colleague and mentor! Wish I could have been at the dedication also. Best, Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 2:41 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Photos That’s a very nice marker, Kathy, and the inscriptions are perfectly readable in the photos. Thanks for sharing! Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Kathleen Shea Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 2:30 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Photos Hi all, I'm sending some photos of Bob Rankin's grave marker at the Washunga Cemetery in the area of Newkirk, Oklahoma. I was unable to attend the memorial service a couple of weeks ago, but I'm here in Ponca City now and was able to take these photos. It was hard to get the sun on the face of the stone, as it faces southwest, but I did my best in two trips. It's a very impressive stone marker situated under a permanent arbor. I hope you can read the inscriptions, which are in both Kansa and English. I'm using the voice feature on my smart phone (with a little editing), so please excuse any errors. Kathy Shea -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Mon Jul 14 19:57:54 2014 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2014 14:57:54 -0500 Subject: Photos In-Reply-To: <88b28f4d7de645f4b197450b65f5a25d@BLUPR04MB819.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: I'm not sure if you all knew this, but Bob's ashes are buried under the cement that his memorial stone is standing on. They simply dug a hole under the side of the cement platform and the ashes were inserted. The stone is under an awning, which is why it's difficult to get a clear picture. The memorial service was nice and several of us (including Justin McBride and I) got to speak, but it was storming and raining pretty hard at the time. Luckily the awning covered us. Maybe it was a sign that Bob was watching us celebrate him! Dave David Kaufman, Ph.D. Director, Kaw Nation Language Program On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 2:06 PM, Greer, Jill wrote: > Thanks Kathy! What a lovely memorial for our dear colleague and > mentor! Wish I could have been at the dedication also. > > > > Best, > > Jill > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of > *Rory Larson > *Sent:* Friday, July 11, 2014 2:41 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Re: Photos > > > > That’s a very nice marker, Kathy, and the inscriptions are perfectly > readable in the photos. Thanks for sharing! > > > > Rory > > > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > ] *On Behalf Of *Kathleen Shea > *Sent:* Friday, July 11, 2014 2:30 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU > *Subject:* Photos > > > > Hi all, > I'm sending some photos of Bob Rankin's grave marker at the Washunga > Cemetery in the area of Newkirk, Oklahoma. I was unable to attend the > memorial service a couple of weeks ago, but I'm here in Ponca City now and > was able to take these photos. It was hard to get the sun on the face of > the stone, as it faces southwest, but I did my best in two trips. It's a > very impressive stone marker situated under a permanent arbor. I hope you > can read the inscriptions, which are in both Kansa and English. I'm using > the voice feature on my smart phone (with a little editing), so please > excuse any errors. > > Kathy Shea > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. > > > This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject > to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for > the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended > recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of > the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by > law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please > notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From FurbeeL at MISSOURI.EDU Tue Jul 15 14:31:58 2014 From: FurbeeL at MISSOURI.EDU (Furbee, Louanna (Emeritus)) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2014 14:31:58 +0000 Subject: Photos In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks for sending these, Kathy. Appropriate remembrance for a good friend of the language and to his colleagues. Pax, Louanna N. Louanna Furbee Professor Emerita of Anthropology University of Missouri ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Kathleen Shea [kathleendshea at GMAIL.COM] Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 2:29 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Photos Hi all, I'm sending some photos of Bob Rankin's grave marker at the Washunga Cemetery in the area of Newkirk, Oklahoma. I was unable to attend the memorial service a couple of weeks ago, but I'm here in Ponca City now and was able to take these photos. It was hard to get the sun on the face of the stone, as it faces southwest, but I did my best in two trips. It's a very impressive stone marker situated under a permanent arbor. I hope you can read the inscriptions, which are in both Kansa and English. I'm using the voice feature on my smart phone (with a little editing), so please excuse any errors. Kathy Shea -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kathleendshea at GMAIL.COM Wed Jul 16 03:03:05 2014 From: kathleendshea at GMAIL.COM (Kathleen Shea) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2014 22:03:05 -0500 Subject: Photos In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I appreciate everyone's heartwarming comments. I'm glad you enjoyed the photos and the remembrance of Bob. On Jul 15, 2014 9:36 AM, "Furbee, Louanna (Emeritus)" wrote: > Thanks for sending these, Kathy. Appropriate remembrance for a good > friend of the language and to his colleagues. Pax, Louanna > > N. Louanna Furbee > Professor Emerita of Anthropology > University of Missouri > ------------------------------ > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of > Kathleen Shea [kathleendshea at GMAIL.COM] > *Sent:* Friday, July 11, 2014 2:29 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Photos > > Hi all, > I'm sending some photos of Bob Rankin's grave marker at the Washunga > Cemetery in the area of Newkirk, Oklahoma. I was unable to attend the > memorial service a couple of weeks ago, but I'm here in Ponca City now and > was able to take these photos. It was hard to get the sun on the face of > the stone, as it faces southwest, but I did my best in two trips. It's a > very impressive stone marker situated under a permanent arbor. I hope you > can read the inscriptions, which are in both Kansa and English. I'm using > the voice feature on my smart phone (with a little editing), so please > excuse any errors. > > Kathy Shea > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Fri Jul 18 14:24:45 2014 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm G. GoodTracks) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2014 09:24:45 -0500 Subject: Fw: Carominga Message-ID: Does anyone have some thoughts to decipher the name: "Caromonga." The last part appears to be "mange" (be in sitting position). The first could be "kera" (cleared sky). From: Greg Olson Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 4:48 PM To: Jimm GoodTracks Subject: Carominga Jimm, while proofing my manuscript, I came across an Ioway name I had overlooked. Caromonga. He is mentioned insome council meetings during the 1840s. I notice the end of the name- monga -appears in other names too. Greg -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Fri Jul 18 20:54:06 2014 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM (Sky Campbell) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2014 15:54:06 -0500 Subject: Carominga In-Reply-To: <25E63AF24B30429DA56C14B57424DB0D@JGDellLaptop> Message-ID: The "caro" portion has me thinking of a few possibilities: kera (as you pointed out) giro (happy) The "monga" has me thinking of: mange (lying down) mange (chest) womanke (easy) <-- perhaps unlikely mąnka (medicine) <-- seems the most unlikely but I thought I'd throw it in there Last is a "theory" that I have that perhaps somehow, some way, "monga" might be a form of "manyi/manye". Considering how many examples of "ng" and "ny" being swapped out (sunge/sunye, -inge/-inye, etc.), I wonder if perhaps it might be a version of "manyi". Especially since that word is used in so many names already and your friend noted that it appears in other names as well. This is just speculation, of course. Speaking of which, if they could provide examples of other names that use "monga", it might help us figure it out. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 9:25 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Fw: Carominga Does anyone have some thoughts to decipher the name: "Caromonga." The last part appears to be "mange" (be in sitting position). The first could be "kera" (cleared sky). From: Greg Olson Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 4:48 PM To: Jimm GoodTracks Subject: Carominga Jimm, while proofing my manuscript, I came across an Ioway name I had overlooked. Caromonga. He is mentioned insome council meetings during the 1840s. I notice the end of the name- monga -appears in other names too. Greg -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU Fri Jul 18 22:46:25 2014 From: jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU (Mcbride, Justin) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2014 17:46:25 -0500 Subject: Carominga In-Reply-To: <003201cfa2ca$6a4eb3f0$3eec1bd0$@com> Message-ID: Howdy, Jimm, I wonder about the division of syllables into Caro and Monga. Is it possible that it could be Ca Romonga? I ask becasue, if it were a Kaw name, I'd think it might have something to do with kke, 'turtle,' which I'm pretty sure I've seen spelled as Ca in names before. I would also look at the r as representing either Ks y or l, and -ga part at the end (if it's not been switched, as Sky suggests, which I think is probable) as possibly representing like the Ks syllable j^e, which seems to happen fairly frequently in the names I've looked at. In short, I would expect something like kke yaNmaNj^e, which doesn't ring any bells at all in Ks. Now, I don't know much at all about IOM, lexically or phonologically--maybe this makes even less sense in IOM--but thought I just might throw that out there as food for thought. All the best, -Justin On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Sky Campbell wrote: > The "caro" portion has me thinking of a few possibilities: > > > > kera (as you pointed out) > > giro (happy) > > > > The "monga" has me thinking of: > > > > mange (lying down) > > mange (chest) > > womanke (easy) <-- perhaps unlikely > > mąnka (medicine) <-- seems the most unlikely but I thought I'd throw it in > there > > > > Last is a "theory" that I have that perhaps somehow, some way, "monga" > might be a form of "manyi/manye". Considering how many examples of "ng" > and "ny" being swapped out (sunge/sunye, -inge/-inye, etc.), I wonder if > perhaps it might be a version of "manyi". Especially since that word is > used in so many names already and your friend noted that it appears in > other names as well. This is just speculation, of course. Speaking of > which, if they could provide examples of other names that use "monga", it > might help us figure it out. > > > > Sky > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of > *Jimm G. GoodTracks > *Sent:* Friday, July 18, 2014 9:25 AM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Fw: Carominga > > > > Does anyone have some thoughts to decipher the name: "Caromonga." The > last part appears to be "mange" (be in sitting position). The first could > be "kera" (cleared sky). > > > > > > *From:* Greg Olson > > *Sent:* Friday, July 11, 2014 4:48 PM > > *To:* Jimm GoodTracks > > *Subject:* Carominga > > > > Jimm, while proofing my manuscript, I came across an Ioway name I had > overlooked. Caromonga. He is mentioned insome council meetings during the > 1840s. I notice the end of the name- monga -appears in other names too. > > > > Greg > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Kathleen.Danker at SDSTATE.EDU Fri Jul 18 23:16:11 2014 From: Kathleen.Danker at SDSTATE.EDU (Danker, Kathleen) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2014 23:16:11 +0000 Subject: Photos In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Kathy, Thank you for sending the photos. It’s really nice monument. K.D. From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Kathleen Shea Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 2:30 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Photos Hi all, I'm sending some photos of Bob Rankin's grave marker at the Washunga Cemetery in the area of Newkirk, Oklahoma. I was unable to attend the memorial service a couple of weeks ago, but I'm here in Ponca City now and was able to take these photos. It was hard to get the sun on the face of the stone, as it faces southwest, but I did my best in two trips. It's a very impressive stone marker situated under a permanent arbor. I hope you can read the inscriptions, which are in both Kansa and English. I'm using the voice feature on my smart phone (with a little editing), so please excuse any errors. Kathy Shea -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Sat Jul 19 00:34:04 2014 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM (Sky Campbell) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2014 19:34:04 -0500 Subject: Carominga In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Justin, I thought of that too (and even thought of turtle LOL...ke for ketą) but nothing came to mind for the rest. We have a precedent for this which is a name listed as "Ke Greðe" (Prairie Turtle/Spotted Turtle). I seem to remember one or two more but can't think of them off the top of my head. And thanks for pointing out the "g" possibly being the "j" sound. That is usually one of the first things I consider but it totally slipped my mind. Man, I really, REALLY need to finish my "character/morpheme swap" program for situations like this. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mcbride, Justin Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 5:46 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Carominga Howdy, Jimm, I wonder about the division of syllables into Caro and Monga. Is it possible that it could be Ca Romonga? I ask becasue, if it were a Kaw name, I'd think it might have something to do with kke, 'turtle,' which I'm pretty sure I've seen spelled as Ca in names before. I would also look at the r as representing either Ks y or l, and -ga part at the end (if it's not been switched, as Sky suggests, which I think is probable) as possibly representing like the Ks syllable j^e, which seems to happen fairly frequently in the names I've looked at. In short, I would expect something like kke yaNmaNj^e, which doesn't ring any bells at all in Ks. Now, I don't know much at all about IOM, lexically or phonologically--maybe this makes even less sense in IOM--but thought I just might throw that out there as food for thought. All the best, -Justin On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Sky Campbell wrote: The "caro" portion has me thinking of a few possibilities: kera (as you pointed out) giro (happy) The "monga" has me thinking of: mange (lying down) mange (chest) womanke (easy) <-- perhaps unlikely mąnka (medicine) <-- seems the most unlikely but I thought I'd throw it in there Last is a "theory" that I have that perhaps somehow, some way, "monga" might be a form of "manyi/manye". Considering how many examples of "ng" and "ny" being swapped out (sunge/sunye, -inge/-inye, etc.), I wonder if perhaps it might be a version of "manyi". Especially since that word is used in so many names already and your friend noted that it appears in other names as well. This is just speculation, of course. Speaking of which, if they could provide examples of other names that use "monga", it might help us figure it out. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 9:25 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Fw: Carominga Does anyone have some thoughts to decipher the name: "Caromonga." The last part appears to be "mange" (be in sitting position). The first could be "kera" (cleared sky). From: Greg Olson Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 4:48 PM To: Jimm GoodTracks Subject: Carominga Jimm, while proofing my manuscript, I came across an Ioway name I had overlooked. Caromonga. He is mentioned insome council meetings during the 1840s. I notice the end of the name- monga -appears in other names too. Greg -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU Sat Jul 19 01:17:04 2014 From: jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU (Mcbride, Justin) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2014 20:17:04 -0500 Subject: Carominga In-Reply-To: <002101cfa2e9$2539fa30$6fadee90$@com> Message-ID: When you showed me that program last year, Sky, I remember thinking, "Now, THIS is awesome!" As a guy who, for years, was asked questions like, "What's my Granddad's name mean?" on a weekly basis, only to be handed a string of indecipherable 'ah's, 'eh's, and hyphens with a few consonants mixed in for good measure, I would have relished the opportunity to see a list the possible permutations presented at once. Now, if you could just build in some phonotactic constraint logic and SQL interaction with some sort of lexical database to provide suggestions--you know, the easy stuff--you'd have the proverbial better mousetrap! :) Ah, it's fun to dream! By the way, the name Kke Leze was the name of one of the last living male L1 Ks speakers. -jtm On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 7:34 PM, Sky Campbell wrote: > Justin, > > > > I thought of that too (and even thought of turtle LOL...ke for ketą) but > nothing came to mind for the rest. We have a precedent for this which is a > name listed as "Ke Greðe" (Prairie Turtle/Spotted Turtle). I seem to > remember one or two more but can't think of them off the top of my head. > > > > And thanks for pointing out the "g" possibly being the "j" sound. That is > usually one of the first things I consider but it totally slipped my mind. > Man, I really, REALLY need to finish my "character/morpheme swap" program > for situations like this. > > > > Sky > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of > *Mcbride, Justin > *Sent:* Friday, July 18, 2014 5:46 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Re: Carominga > > > > Howdy, Jimm, > > > > I wonder about the division of syllables into Caro and Monga. Is it > possible that it could be Ca Romonga? I ask becasue, if it were a Kaw name, > I'd think it might have something to do with kke, 'turtle,' which I'm > pretty sure I've seen spelled as Ca in names before. I would also look at > the r as representing either Ks y or l, and -ga part at the end (if it's > not been switched, as Sky suggests, which I think is probable) as possibly > representing like the Ks syllable j^e, which seems to happen fairly > frequently in the names I've looked at. In short, I would expect something > like kke yaNmaNj^e, which doesn't ring any bells at all in Ks. Now, I don't > know much at all about IOM, lexically or phonologically--maybe this makes > even less sense in IOM--but thought I just might throw that out there as > food for thought. > > > > All the best, > > -Justin > > > > On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Sky Campbell > wrote: > > The "caro" portion has me thinking of a few possibilities: > > > > kera (as you pointed out) > > giro (happy) > > > > The "monga" has me thinking of: > > > > mange (lying down) > > mange (chest) > > womanke (easy) <-- perhaps unlikely > > mąnka (medicine) <-- seems the most unlikely but I thought I'd throw it in > there > > > > Last is a "theory" that I have that perhaps somehow, some way, "monga" > might be a form of "manyi/manye". Considering how many examples of "ng" > and "ny" being swapped out (sunge/sunye, -inge/-inye, etc.), I wonder if > perhaps it might be a version of "manyi". Especially since that word is > used in so many names already and your friend noted that it appears in > other names as well. This is just speculation, of course. Speaking of > which, if they could provide examples of other names that use "monga", it > might help us figure it out. > > > > Sky > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of > *Jimm G. GoodTracks > *Sent:* Friday, July 18, 2014 9:25 AM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Fw: Carominga > > > > Does anyone have some thoughts to decipher the name: "Caromonga." The > last part appears to be "mange" (be in sitting position). The first could > be "kera" (cleared sky). > > > > > > *From:* Greg Olson > > *Sent:* Friday, July 11, 2014 4:48 PM > > *To:* Jimm GoodTracks > > *Subject:* Carominga > > > > Jimm, while proofing my manuscript, I came across an Ioway name I had > overlooked. Caromonga. He is mentioned insome council meetings during the > 1840s. I notice the end of the name- monga -appears in other names too. > > > > Greg > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. > > > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Sat Jul 19 02:02:49 2014 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM (Sky Campbell) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2014 21:02:49 -0500 Subject: Carominga In-Reply-To: Message-ID: That is actually the eventual goal. I'm still getting my head wrapped around things like "phonotactic constraint logic" and the like but I've been working with FLEx a LOT over the past year and while I don't have as much as I'd like entered in there, I'm coming up on 4000 entries (and I still have a loooooong ways to go). I hope to either tie directly into the FLEx database somehow (will have to work with the developers for that sort of thing) and if that doesn't work, I figure to at least be able to parse something like the XML files that FLEx can export. Then I'll be able to do as you suggest and take all the permutations and look for matches :). Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mcbride, Justin Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 8:17 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Carominga When you showed me that program last year, Sky, I remember thinking, "Now, THIS is awesome!" As a guy who, for years, was asked questions like, "What's my Granddad's name mean?" on a weekly basis, only to be handed a string of indecipherable 'ah's, 'eh's, and hyphens with a few consonants mixed in for good measure, I would have relished the opportunity to see a list the possible permutations presented at once. Now, if you could just build in some phonotactic constraint logic and SQL interaction with some sort of lexical database to provide suggestions--you know, the easy stuff--you'd have the proverbial better mousetrap! :) Ah, it's fun to dream! By the way, the name Kke Leze was the name of one of the last living male L1 Ks speakers. -jtm On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 7:34 PM, Sky Campbell wrote: Justin, I thought of that too (and even thought of turtle LOL...ke for ketą) but nothing came to mind for the rest. We have a precedent for this which is a name listed as "Ke Greðe" (Prairie Turtle/Spotted Turtle). I seem to remember one or two more but can't think of them off the top of my head. And thanks for pointing out the "g" possibly being the "j" sound. That is usually one of the first things I consider but it totally slipped my mind. Man, I really, REALLY need to finish my "character/morpheme swap" program for situations like this. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mcbride, Justin Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 5:46 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Carominga Howdy, Jimm, I wonder about the division of syllables into Caro and Monga. Is it possible that it could be Ca Romonga? I ask becasue, if it were a Kaw name, I'd think it might have something to do with kke, 'turtle,' which I'm pretty sure I've seen spelled as Ca in names before. I would also look at the r as representing either Ks y or l, and -ga part at the end (if it's not been switched, as Sky suggests, which I think is probable) as possibly representing like the Ks syllable j^e, which seems to happen fairly frequently in the names I've looked at. In short, I would expect something like kke yaNmaNj^e, which doesn't ring any bells at all in Ks. Now, I don't know much at all about IOM, lexically or phonologically--maybe this makes even less sense in IOM--but thought I just might throw that out there as food for thought. All the best, -Justin On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Sky Campbell wrote: The "caro" portion has me thinking of a few possibilities: kera (as you pointed out) giro (happy) The "monga" has me thinking of: mange (lying down) mange (chest) womanke (easy) <-- perhaps unlikely mąnka (medicine) <-- seems the most unlikely but I thought I'd throw it in there Last is a "theory" that I have that perhaps somehow, some way, "monga" might be a form of "manyi/manye". Considering how many examples of "ng" and "ny" being swapped out (sunge/sunye, -inge/-inye, etc.), I wonder if perhaps it might be a version of "manyi". Especially since that word is used in so many names already and your friend noted that it appears in other names as well. This is just speculation, of course. Speaking of which, if they could provide examples of other names that use "monga", it might help us figure it out. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 9:25 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Fw: Carominga Does anyone have some thoughts to decipher the name: "Caromonga." The last part appears to be "mange" (be in sitting position). The first could be "kera" (cleared sky). From: Greg Olson Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 4:48 PM To: Jimm GoodTracks Subject: Carominga Jimm, while proofing my manuscript, I came across an Ioway name I had overlooked. Caromonga. He is mentioned insome council meetings during the 1840s. I notice the end of the name- monga -appears in other names too. Greg -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Sat Jul 19 23:22:55 2014 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Greer, Jill) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2014 23:22:55 +0000 Subject: Carominga In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Justin and Sky - You guys with your programming talents- impressive! Just one question for Jimm and Greg - if the original person who transcribed the name was French (or a mixed blood literate in French- as was common around St. Joseph), the first syllabie "Ca" could even be /Sa/ or /se/ rather than Key, n'est pas? I hate to muddy the waters, but all it takes is one person to miss the cedilla and we've switched the sound totally. These old names are so slippery, but fascinating! Best, Jill On Jul 18, 2014, at 8:17 PM, "Mcbride, Justin" > wrote: When you showed me that program last year, Sky, I remember thinking, "Now, THIS is awesome!" As a guy who, for years, was asked questions like, "What's my Granddad's name mean?" on a weekly basis, only to be handed a string of indecipherable 'ah's, 'eh's, and hyphens with a few consonants mixed in for good measure, I would have relished the opportunity to see a list the possible permutations presented at once. Now, if you could just build in some phonotactic constraint logic and SQL interaction with some sort of lexical database to provide suggestions--you know, the easy stuff--you'd have the proverbial better mousetrap! :) Ah, it's fun to dream! By the way, the name Kke Leze was the name of one of the last living male L1 Ks speakers. -jtm On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 7:34 PM, Sky Campbell > wrote: Justin, I thought of that too (and even thought of turtle LOL...ke for ketą) but nothing came to mind for the rest. We have a precedent for this which is a name listed as "Ke Greðe" (Prairie Turtle/Spotted Turtle). I seem to remember one or two more but can't think of them off the top of my head. And thanks for pointing out the "g" possibly being the "j" sound. That is usually one of the first things I consider but it totally slipped my mind. Man, I really, REALLY need to finish my "character/morpheme swap" program for situations like this. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mcbride, Justin Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 5:46 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Carominga Howdy, Jimm, I wonder about the division of syllables into Caro and Monga. Is it possible that it could be Ca Romonga? I ask becasue, if it were a Kaw name, I'd think it might have something to do with kke, 'turtle,' which I'm pretty sure I've seen spelled as Ca in names before. I would also look at the r as representing either Ks y or l, and -ga part at the end (if it's not been switched, as Sky suggests, which I think is probable) as possibly representing like the Ks syllable j^e, which seems to happen fairly frequently in the names I've looked at. In short, I would expect something like kke yaNmaNj^e, which doesn't ring any bells at all in Ks. Now, I don't know much at all about IOM, lexically or phonologically--maybe this makes even less sense in IOM--but thought I just might throw that out there as food for thought. All the best, -Justin On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Sky Campbell > wrote: The "caro" portion has me thinking of a few possibilities: kera (as you pointed out) giro (happy) The "monga" has me thinking of: mange (lying down) mange (chest) womanke (easy) <-- perhaps unlikely mąnka (medicine) <-- seems the most unlikely but I thought I'd throw it in there Last is a "theory" that I have that perhaps somehow, some way, "monga" might be a form of "manyi/manye". Considering how many examples of "ng" and "ny" being swapped out (sunge/sunye, -inge/-inye, etc.), I wonder if perhaps it might be a version of "manyi". Especially since that word is used in so many names already and your friend noted that it appears in other names as well. This is just speculation, of course. Speaking of which, if they could provide examples of other names that use "monga", it might help us figure it out. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 9:25 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Fw: Carominga Does anyone have some thoughts to decipher the name: "Caromonga." The last part appears to be "mange" (be in sitting position). The first could be "kera" (cleared sky). From: Greg Olson Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 4:48 PM To: Jimm GoodTracks Subject: Carominga Jimm, while proofing my manuscript, I came across an Ioway name I had overlooked. Caromonga. He is mentioned insome council meetings during the 1840s. I notice the end of the name- monga -appears in other names too. Greg -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Wed Jul 23 02:34:40 2014 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm G. GoodTracks) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 21:34:40 -0500 Subject: Carominga In-Reply-To: <710AA969-4EC2-465F-A2B2-BAD56532A524@mssu.edu> Message-ID: Well, going on what Jill says, the closet thing I can find is: šedánaŋe; šedánaŋa adv/prn. that distant curvilinear object yonder; that distant land in sight. However, I'm not comfortable that it is a good fit for "Carominga." I don't know if the original notation was from a French or English document, and as such, cannot know to consider the phonetic value of the "C." But going with the possibility of it being "Ké" as in "Kétan" (turtle), we have: kétan; ketúnha; keton^a (SKN); qetan (DOR) n. turtle. kétan xúha n. turtle shell. Kétan wáñi pí añáñe ke, It is said that turtle meat is good. kégrédheiñe; kégrédheiŋe spotted (or) sand turtle kehtonha (SKN) snapping turtle; snapper kémarax^ín; kemárax^in (LWR) snapping turtle ké márax^in “wrinkled turtle” mud turtle ketánna (LWR) snapping turtle; snapper But you see, the best contender is for: kéra adj. clear (sky). Clear Day; Clear Sky Appears (a personal Buffalo Clan name) n. Kéra Tán^in; K^éra Tán^in. **SEE: githóje; clear. Also, thinking about the breakup of syllables as Justin suggest, there could be a connect with: rominjí n. island. Rominjí^iŋe(mi); Romínchiŋe; Irómiŋhšji; Jérominje; Romijiiŋemi (DOR); rúmitsí (MAX) (a personal Buffalo Clan and Beaver Clan name) Little Island. Romihingu ~ Romihiŋu (SKN); Romijiiŋemi (DOR) (a personal Pigeon Clan name) Island. And there was maybe the "g" is really a "j" which gives only one unlikely possibility: mánje (?)(LWR); masjé adj/v.i. hot, warm (weather). With the above, one could squeeze out a "Turtle Island," but, this possibility is not convincing to me. SO THEN, in appreciation to everyone's input, I have arrived full circle to my original conjecture that the name that most likely fits the documented transcription is: KéraMánge (Clearing Day All About~ Prevailing). In this case, the "mánge" (sitting) is used in the sense of a positional verb, saying that the clearing of the sky, was extensive over a wide area such might be view on the breathe of the open plains. Further, such a rendering would be consistant to similar clan names. I suggest one possibilty for Grey in working with his narrative is to include with the composed name, the original transcription, such as, "KéraMánge (Clearing Day All About) [Carminga (Document Source citations)]. Unless, new evidence appears, or further information, this is the best that can be made of that name. Hánhe Pi, Good Night, Buenas Noches! From: Greer, Jill Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2014 6:22 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Carominga Justin and Sky - You guys with your programming talents- impressive! Just one question for Jimm and Greg - if the original person who transcribed the name was French (or a mixed blood literate in French- as was common around St. Joseph), the first syllabie "Ca" could even be /Sa/ or /se/ rather than Key, n'est pas? I hate to muddy the waters, but all it takes is one person to miss the cedilla and we've switched the sound totally. These old names are so slippery, but fascinating! Best, Jill On Jul 18, 2014, at 8:17 PM, "Mcbride, Justin" wrote: When you showed me that program last year, Sky, I remember thinking, "Now, THIS is awesome!" As a guy who, for years, was asked questions like, "What's my Granddad's name mean?" on a weekly basis, only to be handed a string of indecipherable 'ah's, 'eh's, and hyphens with a few consonants mixed in for good measure, I would have relished the opportunity to see a list the possible permutations presented at once. Now, if you could just build in some phonotactic constraint logic and SQL interaction with some sort of lexical database to provide suggestions--you know, the easy stuff--you'd have the proverbial better mousetrap! :) Ah, it's fun to dream! By the way, the name Kke Leze was the name of one of the last living male L1 Ks speakers. -jtm On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 7:34 PM, Sky Campbell wrote: Justin, I thought of that too (and even thought of turtle LOL...ke for ketą) but nothing came to mind for the rest. We have a precedent for this which is a name listed as "Ke Greðe" (Prairie Turtle/Spotted Turtle). I seem to remember one or two more but can't think of them off the top of my head. And thanks for pointing out the "g" possibly being the "j" sound. That is usually one of the first things I consider but it totally slipped my mind. Man, I really, REALLY need to finish my "character/morpheme swap" program for situations like this. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mcbride, Justin Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 5:46 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Carominga Howdy, Jimm, I wonder about the division of syllables into Caro and Monga. Is it possible that it could be Ca Romonga? I ask becasue, if it were a Kaw name, I'd think it might have something to do with kke, 'turtle,' which I'm pretty sure I've seen spelled as Ca in names before. I would also look at the r as representing either Ks y or l, and -ga part at the end (if it's not been switched, as Sky suggests, which I think is probable) as possibly representing like the Ks syllable j^e, which seems to happen fairly frequently in the names I've looked at. In short, I would expect something like kke yaNmaNj^e, which doesn't ring any bells at all in Ks. Now, I don't know much at all about IOM, lexically or phonologically--maybe this makes even less sense in IOM--but thought I just might throw that out there as food for thought. All the best, -Justin On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Sky Campbell wrote: The "caro" portion has me thinking of a few possibilities: kera (as you pointed out) giro (happy) The "monga" has me thinking of: mange (lying down) mange (chest) womanke (easy) <-- perhaps unlikely mąnka (medicine) <-- seems the most unlikely but I thought I'd throw it in there Last is a "theory" that I have that perhaps somehow, some way, "monga" might be a form of "manyi/manye". Considering how many examples of "ng" and "ny" being swapped out (sunge/sunye, -inge/-inye, etc.), I wonder if perhaps it might be a version of "manyi". Especially since that word is used in so many names already and your friend noted that it appears in other names as well. This is just speculation, of course. Speaking of which, if they could provide examples of other names that use "monga", it might help us figure it out. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 9:25 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Fw: Carominga Does anyone have some thoughts to decipher the name: "Caromonga." The last part appears to be "mange" (be in sitting position). The first could be "kera" (cleared sky). From: Greg Olson Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 4:48 PM To: Jimm GoodTracks Subject: Carominga Jimm, while proofing my manuscript, I came across an Ioway name I had overlooked. Caromonga. He is mentioned insome council meetings during the 1840s. I notice the end of the name- monga -appears in other names too. Greg -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG Wed Jul 23 14:27:46 2014 From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 09:27:46 -0500 Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Greg was gracious enough to let me see the copies he was drawing from and sure enough, it looks like "monga" in the name. But what I found interesting in that document was other familiar names...Washkamonga and Neumonga which we've seen elsewhere with the "monga" portion spelled with an "ny" instead of an "ng". I also looked at the 1842 Ioway census and found "Caromonga" but instead it was spelled "Caramonya". I did a quick Google search for "Caramonya" and got a couple hits on some books that had excerpts from Hamilton's journal. He describes "Caramonya" as "an old Indian who often visits us." Unfortunately he doesn't translate the name. My first reaction was to think that perhaps Hamilton might be using his own orthography that he used in his books but the rest of the spelling doesn't bear that out. I'd love to see more of Hamilton's journal to see if there are any clues in there. Anyone know where I could get a hold of such a thing? So it looks like that ending may actually be "manyi" (but perhaps not for the "ng/ny swap" that I suggested but maybe just a handwriting issue). And it looks like both versions were written by the same person (there is the same flourish on the capital "C" in both versions of the name). Council meeting image: [cid:image005.jpg at 01CFA658.5CE491D0] Ioway census image: [cid:image006.jpg at 01CFA658.5CE491D0] So if it is "Cara-" instead of "Caro-", then that can open up more possibilities perhaps. But I'm still only coming up with ketą, kera and giro as my top suggestions for now. Sky Campbell Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2014 9:35 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga Importance: Low Well, going on what Jill says, the closet thing I can find is: šedánaŋe; šedánaŋa adv/prn. that distant curvilinear object yonder; that distant land in sight. However, I'm not comfortable that it is a good fit for "Carominga." I don't know if the original notation was from a French or English document, and as such, cannot know to consider the phonetic value of the "C." But going with the possibility of it being "Ké" as in "Kétan" (turtle), we have: kétan; ketúnha; keton^a (SKN); qetan (DOR) n. turtle. kétan xúha n. turtle shell. Kétan wáñi pí añáñe ke, It is said that turtle meat is good. kégrédheiñe; kégrédheiŋe spotted (or) sand turtle kehtonha (SKN) snapping turtle; snapper kémarax^ín; kemárax^in (LWR) snapping turtle ké márax^in “wrinkled turtle” mud turtle ketánna (LWR) snapping turtle; snapper But you see, the best contender is for: kéra adj. clear (sky). Clear Day; Clear Sky Appears (a personal Buffalo Clan name) n. Kéra Tán^in; K^éra Tán^in. **SEE: githóje; clear. Also, thinking about the breakup of syllables as Justin suggest, there could be a connect with: rominjí n. island. Rominjí^iŋe(mi); Romínchiŋe; Irómiŋhšji; Jérominje; Romijiiŋemi (DOR); rúmitsí (MAX) (a personal Buffalo Clan and Beaver Clan name) Little Island. Romihingu ~ Romihiŋu (SKN); Romijiiŋemi (DOR) (a personal Pigeon Clan name) Island. And there was maybe the "g" is really a "j" which gives only one unlikely possibility: mánje (?)(LWR); masjé adj/v.i. hot, warm (weather). With the above, one could squeeze out a "Turtle Island," but, this possibility is not convincing to me. SO THEN, in appreciation to everyone's input, I have arrived full circle to my original conjecture that the name that most likely fits the documented transcription is: KéraMánge (Clearing Day All About~ Prevailing). In this case, the "mánge" (sitting) is used in the sense of a positional verb, saying that the clearing of the sky, was extensive over a wide area such might be view on the breathe of the open plains. Further, such a rendering would be consistant to similar clan names. I suggest one possibilty for Grey in working with his narrative is to include with the composed name, the original transcription, such as, "KéraMánge (Clearing Day All About) [Carminga (Document Source citations)]. Unless, new evidence appears, or further information, this is the best that can be made of that name. Hánhe Pi, Good Night, Buenas Noches! From: Greer, Jill Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2014 6:22 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Carominga Justin and Sky - You guys with your programming talents- impressive! Just one question for Jimm and Greg - if the original person who transcribed the name was French (or a mixed blood literate in French- as was common around St. Joseph), the first syllabie "Ca" could even be /Sa/ or /se/ rather than Key, n'est pas? I hate to muddy the waters, but all it takes is one person to miss the cedilla and we've switched the sound totally. These old names are so slippery, but fascinating! Best, Jill On Jul 18, 2014, at 8:17 PM, "Mcbride, Justin" > wrote: When you showed me that program last year, Sky, I remember thinking, "Now, THIS is awesome!" As a guy who, for years, was asked questions like, "What's my Granddad's name mean?" on a weekly basis, only to be handed a string of indecipherable 'ah's, 'eh's, and hyphens with a few consonants mixed in for good measure, I would have relished the opportunity to see a list the possible permutations presented at once. Now, if you could just build in some phonotactic constraint logic and SQL interaction with some sort of lexical database to provide suggestions--you know, the easy stuff--you'd have the proverbial better mousetrap! :) Ah, it's fun to dream! By the way, the name Kke Leze was the name of one of the last living male L1 Ks speakers. -jtm On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 7:34 PM, Sky Campbell > wrote: Justin, I thought of that too (and even thought of turtle LOL...ke for ketą) but nothing came to mind for the rest. We have a precedent for this which is a name listed as "Ke Greðe" (Prairie Turtle/Spotted Turtle). I seem to remember one or two more but can't think of them off the top of my head. And thanks for pointing out the "g" possibly being the "j" sound. That is usually one of the first things I consider but it totally slipped my mind. Man, I really, REALLY need to finish my "character/morpheme swap" program for situations like this. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mcbride, Justin Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 5:46 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Carominga Howdy, Jimm, I wonder about the division of syllables into Caro and Monga. Is it possible that it could be Ca Romonga? I ask becasue, if it were a Kaw name, I'd think it might have something to do with kke, 'turtle,' which I'm pretty sure I've seen spelled as Ca in names before. I would also look at the r as representing either Ks y or l, and -ga part at the end (if it's not been switched, as Sky suggests, which I think is probable) as possibly representing like the Ks syllable j^e, which seems to happen fairly frequently in the names I've looked at. In short, I would expect something like kke yaNmaNj^e, which doesn't ring any bells at all in Ks. Now, I don't know much at all about IOM, lexically or phonologically--maybe this makes even less sense in IOM--but thought I just might throw that out there as food for thought. All the best, -Justin On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Sky Campbell > wrote: The "caro" portion has me thinking of a few possibilities: kera (as you pointed out) giro (happy) The "monga" has me thinking of: mange (lying down) mange (chest) womanke (easy) <-- perhaps unlikely mąnka (medicine) <-- seems the most unlikely but I thought I'd throw it in there Last is a "theory" that I have that perhaps somehow, some way, "monga" might be a form of "manyi/manye". Considering how many examples of "ng" and "ny" being swapped out (sunge/sunye, -inge/-inye, etc.), I wonder if perhaps it might be a version of "manyi". Especially since that word is used in so many names already and your friend noted that it appears in other names as well. This is just speculation, of course. Speaking of which, if they could provide examples of other names that use "monga", it might help us figure it out. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 9:25 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Fw: Carominga Does anyone have some thoughts to decipher the name: "Caromonga." The last part appears to be "mange" (be in sitting position). The first could be "kera" (cleared sky). From: Greg Olson Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 4:48 PM To: Jimm GoodTracks Subject: Carominga Jimm, while proofing my manuscript, I came across an Ioway name I had overlooked. Caromonga. He is mentioned insome council meetings during the 1840s. I notice the end of the name- monga -appears in other names too. Greg -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image005.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 16156 bytes Desc: image005.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image006.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 6231 bytes Desc: image006.jpg URL: From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Wed Jul 23 16:51:34 2014 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm G. GoodTracks) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 11:51:34 -0500 Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E436C33FE5D338@Server6-EX.omtribe.net> Message-ID: Based upon your finding below, one can make a case for "máñi" perhaps even "mína." And that even being so, the term/ name "KéraMáñi" (Clearing), is little changed in meaning from the sense of "KéraMánge." Being that Hamilton was of a European background, where names of individual were accepted as it, with no thought of a context or translation of a name, it is not a surprise that Hamilton provided no translation. It would have been of interest if he would have at least provided some personal data as to his person, character, personality, community role other than he was "an old Indian who often visits us." If you find a Hamiltons's Journal, it would be an interesting read, just as was Irving's. From: Campbell, Sky Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2014 9:27 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga Greg was gracious enough to let me see the copies he was drawing from and sure enough, it looks like "monga" in the name. But what I found interesting in that document was other familiar names...Washkamonga and Neumonga which we've seen elsewhere with the "monga" portion spelled with an "ny" instead of an "ng". I also looked at the 1842 Ioway census and found "Caromonga" but instead it was spelled "Caramonya". I did a quick Google search for "Caramonya" and got a couple hits on some books that had excerpts from Hamilton's journal. He describes "Caramonya" as "an old Indian who often visits us." Unfortunately he doesn't translate the name. My first reaction was to think that perhaps Hamilton might be using his own orthography that he used in his books but the rest of the spelling doesn't bear that out. I'd love to see more of Hamilton's journal to see if there are any clues in there. Anyone know where I could get a hold of such a thing? So it looks like that ending may actually be "manyi" (but perhaps not for the "ng/ny swap" that I suggested but maybe just a handwriting issue). And it looks like both versions were written by the same person (there is the same flourish on the capital "C" in both versions of the name). Council meeting image: Ioway census image: So if it is "Cara-" instead of "Caro-", then that can open up more possibilities perhaps. But I'm still only coming up with ketą, kera and giro as my top suggestions for now. Sky Campbell Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2014 9:35 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga Importance: Low Well, going on what Jill says, the closet thing I can find is: šedánaŋe; šedánaŋa adv/prn. that distant curvilinear object yonder; that distant land in sight. However, I'm not comfortable that it is a good fit for "Carominga." I don't know if the original notation was from a French or English document, and as such, cannot know to consider the phonetic value of the "C." But going with the possibility of it being "Ké" as in "Kétan" (turtle), we have: kétan; ketúnha; keton^a (SKN); qetan (DOR) n. turtle. kétan xúha n. turtle shell. Kétan wáñi pí añáñe ke, It is said that turtle meat is good. kégrédheiñe; kégrédheiŋe spotted (or) sand turtle kehtonha (SKN) snapping turtle; snapper kémarax^ín; kemárax^in (LWR) snapping turtle ké márax^in “wrinkled turtle” mud turtle ketánna (LWR) snapping turtle; snapper But you see, the best contender is for: kéra adj. clear (sky). Clear Day; Clear Sky Appears (a personal Buffalo Clan name) n. Kéra Tán^in; K^éra Tán^in. **SEE: githóje; clear. Also, thinking about the breakup of syllables as Justin suggest, there could be a connect with: rominjí n. island. Rominjí^iŋe(mi); Romínchiŋe; Irómiŋhšji; Jérominje; Romijiiŋemi (DOR); rúmitsí (MAX) (a personal Buffalo Clan and Beaver Clan name) Little Island. Romihingu ~ Romihiŋu (SKN); Romijiiŋemi (DOR) (a personal Pigeon Clan name) Island. And there was maybe the "g" is really a "j" which gives only one unlikely possibility: mánje (?)(LWR); masjé adj/v.i. hot, warm (weather). With the above, one could squeeze out a "Turtle Island," but, this possibility is not convincing to me. SO THEN, in appreciation to everyone's input, I have arrived full circle to my original conjecture that the name that most likely fits the documented transcription is: KéraMánge (Clearing Day All About~ Prevailing). In this case, the "mánge" (sitting) is used in the sense of a positional verb, saying that the clearing of the sky, was extensive over a wide area such might be view on the breathe of the open plains. Further, such a rendering would be consistant to similar clan names. I suggest one possibilty for Grey in working with his narrative is to include with the composed name, the original transcription, such as, "KéraMánge (Clearing Day All About) [Carminga (Document Source citations)]. Unless, new evidence appears, or further information, this is the best that can be made of that name. Hánhe Pi, Good Night, Buenas Noches! From: Greer, Jill Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2014 6:22 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Carominga Justin and Sky - You guys with your programming talents- impressive! Just one question for Jimm and Greg - if the original person who transcribed the name was French (or a mixed blood literate in French- as was common around St. Joseph), the first syllabie "Ca" could even be /Sa/ or /se/ rather than Key, n'est pas? I hate to muddy the waters, but all it takes is one person to miss the cedilla and we've switched the sound totally. These old names are so slippery, but fascinating! Best, Jill On Jul 18, 2014, at 8:17 PM, "Mcbride, Justin" wrote: When you showed me that program last year, Sky, I remember thinking, "Now, THIS is awesome!" As a guy who, for years, was asked questions like, "What's my Granddad's name mean?" on a weekly basis, only to be handed a string of indecipherable 'ah's, 'eh's, and hyphens with a few consonants mixed in for good measure, I would have relished the opportunity to see a list the possible permutations presented at once. Now, if you could just build in some phonotactic constraint logic and SQL interaction with some sort of lexical database to provide suggestions--you know, the easy stuff--you'd have the proverbial better mousetrap! :) Ah, it's fun to dream! By the way, the name Kke Leze was the name of one of the last living male L1 Ks speakers. -jtm On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 7:34 PM, Sky Campbell wrote: Justin, I thought of that too (and even thought of turtle LOL...ke for ketą) but nothing came to mind for the rest. We have a precedent for this which is a name listed as "Ke Greðe" (Prairie Turtle/Spotted Turtle). I seem to remember one or two more but can't think of them off the top of my head. And thanks for pointing out the "g" possibly being the "j" sound. That is usually one of the first things I consider but it totally slipped my mind. Man, I really, REALLY need to finish my "character/morpheme swap" program for situations like this. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mcbride, Justin Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 5:46 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Carominga Howdy, Jimm, I wonder about the division of syllables into Caro and Monga. Is it possible that it could be Ca Romonga? I ask becasue, if it were a Kaw name, I'd think it might have something to do with kke, 'turtle,' which I'm pretty sure I've seen spelled as Ca in names before. I would also look at the r as representing either Ks y or l, and -ga part at the end (if it's not been switched, as Sky suggests, which I think is probable) as possibly representing like the Ks syllable j^e, which seems to happen fairly frequently in the names I've looked at. In short, I would expect something like kke yaNmaNj^e, which doesn't ring any bells at all in Ks. Now, I don't know much at all about IOM, lexically or phonologically--maybe this makes even less sense in IOM--but thought I just might throw that out there as food for thought. All the best, -Justin On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Sky Campbell wrote: The "caro" portion has me thinking of a few possibilities: kera (as you pointed out) giro (happy) The "monga" has me thinking of: mange (lying down) mange (chest) womanke (easy) <-- perhaps unlikely mąnka (medicine) <-- seems the most unlikely but I thought I'd throw it in there Last is a "theory" that I have that perhaps somehow, some way, "monga" might be a form of "manyi/manye". Considering how many examples of "ng" and "ny" being swapped out (sunge/sunye, -inge/-inye, etc.), I wonder if perhaps it might be a version of "manyi". Especially since that word is used in so many names already and your friend noted that it appears in other names as well. This is just speculation, of course. Speaking of which, if they could provide examples of other names that use "monga", it might help us figure it out. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 9:25 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Fw: Carominga Does anyone have some thoughts to decipher the name: "Caromonga." The last part appears to be "mange" (be in sitting position). The first could be "kera" (cleared sky). From: Greg Olson Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 4:48 PM To: Jimm GoodTracks Subject: Carominga Jimm, while proofing my manuscript, I came across an Ioway name I had overlooked. Caromonga. He is mentioned insome council meetings during the 1840s. I notice the end of the name- monga -appears in other names too. Greg -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. ­­ -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image005.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 16156 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image006.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 6231 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Wed Jul 23 18:14:39 2014 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 18:14:39 +0000 Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E436C33FE5D338@Server6-EX.omtribe.net> Message-ID: Sky, do we know what “monga” means in the other names, Washkamonga and Neumonga? Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2014 9:28 AM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga Greg was gracious enough to let me see the copies he was drawing from and sure enough, it looks like "monga" in the name. But what I found interesting in that document was other familiar names...Washkamonga and Neumonga which we've seen elsewhere with the "monga" portion spelled with an "ny" instead of an "ng". I also looked at the 1842 Ioway census and found "Caromonga" but instead it was spelled "Caramonya". I did a quick Google search for "Caramonya" and got a couple hits on some books that had excerpts from Hamilton's journal. He describes "Caramonya" as "an old Indian who often visits us." Unfortunately he doesn't translate the name. My first reaction was to think that perhaps Hamilton might be using his own orthography that he used in his books but the rest of the spelling doesn't bear that out. I'd love to see more of Hamilton's journal to see if there are any clues in there. Anyone know where I could get a hold of such a thing? So it looks like that ending may actually be "manyi" (but perhaps not for the "ng/ny swap" that I suggested but maybe just a handwriting issue). And it looks like both versions were written by the same person (there is the same flourish on the capital "C" in both versions of the name). Council meeting image: [Caromonga.jpg] Ioway census image: [Caramonya.jpg] So if it is "Cara-" instead of "Caro-", then that can open up more possibilities perhaps. But I'm still only coming up with ketą, kera and giro as my top suggestions for now. Sky Campbell Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2014 9:35 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga Importance: Low Well, going on what Jill says, the closet thing I can find is: šedánaŋe; šedánaŋa adv/prn. that distant curvilinear object yonder; that distant land in sight. However, I'm not comfortable that it is a good fit for "Carominga." I don't know if the original notation was from a French or English document, and as such, cannot know to consider the phonetic value of the "C." But going with the possibility of it being "Ké" as in "Kétan" (turtle), we have: kétan; ketúnha; keton^a (SKN); qetan (DOR) n. turtle. kétan xúha n. turtle shell. Kétan wáñi pí añáñe ke, It is said that turtle meat is good. kégrédheiñe; kégrédheiŋe spotted (or) sand turtle kehtonha (SKN) snapping turtle; snapper kémarax^ín; kemárax^in (LWR) snapping turtle ké márax^in “wrinkled turtle” mud turtle ketánna (LWR) snapping turtle; snapper But you see, the best contender is for: kéra adj. clear (sky). Clear Day; Clear Sky Appears (a personal Buffalo Clan name) n. Kéra Tán^in; K^éra Tán^in. **SEE: githóje; clear. Also, thinking about the breakup of syllables as Justin suggest, there could be a connect with: rominjí n. island. Rominjí^iŋe(mi); Romínchiŋe; Irómiŋhšji; Jérominje; Romijiiŋemi (DOR); rúmitsí (MAX) (a personal Buffalo Clan and Beaver Clan name) Little Island. Romihingu ~ Romihiŋu (SKN); Romijiiŋemi (DOR) (a personal Pigeon Clan name) Island. And there was maybe the "g" is really a "j" which gives only one unlikely possibility: mánje (?)(LWR); masjé adj/v.i. hot, warm (weather). With the above, one could squeeze out a "Turtle Island," but, this possibility is not convincing to me. SO THEN, in appreciation to everyone's input, I have arrived full circle to my original conjecture that the name that most likely fits the documented transcription is: KéraMánge (Clearing Day All About~ Prevailing). In this case, the "mánge" (sitting) is used in the sense of a positional verb, saying that the clearing of the sky, was extensive over a wide area such might be view on the breathe of the open plains. Further, such a rendering would be consistant to similar clan names. I suggest one possibilty for Grey in working with his narrative is to include with the composed name, the original transcription, such as, "KéraMánge (Clearing Day All About) [Carminga (Document Source citations)]. Unless, new evidence appears, or further information, this is the best that can be made of that name. Hánhe Pi, Good Night, Buenas Noches! From: Greer, Jill Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2014 6:22 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Carominga Justin and Sky - You guys with your programming talents- impressive! Just one question for Jimm and Greg - if the original person who transcribed the name was French (or a mixed blood literate in French- as was common around St. Joseph), the first syllabie "Ca" could even be /Sa/ or /se/ rather than Key, n'est pas? I hate to muddy the waters, but all it takes is one person to miss the cedilla and we've switched the sound totally. These old names are so slippery, but fascinating! Best, Jill On Jul 18, 2014, at 8:17 PM, "Mcbride, Justin" > wrote: When you showed me that program last year, Sky, I remember thinking, "Now, THIS is awesome!" As a guy who, for years, was asked questions like, "What's my Granddad's name mean?" on a weekly basis, only to be handed a string of indecipherable 'ah's, 'eh's, and hyphens with a few consonants mixed in for good measure, I would have relished the opportunity to see a list the possible permutations presented at once. Now, if you could just build in some phonotactic constraint logic and SQL interaction with some sort of lexical database to provide suggestions--you know, the easy stuff--you'd have the proverbial better mousetrap! :) Ah, it's fun to dream! By the way, the name Kke Leze was the name of one of the last living male L1 Ks speakers. -jtm On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 7:34 PM, Sky Campbell > wrote: Justin, I thought of that too (and even thought of turtle LOL...ke for ketą) but nothing came to mind for the rest. We have a precedent for this which is a name listed as "Ke Greðe" (Prairie Turtle/Spotted Turtle). I seem to remember one or two more but can't think of them off the top of my head. And thanks for pointing out the "g" possibly being the "j" sound. That is usually one of the first things I consider but it totally slipped my mind. Man, I really, REALLY need to finish my "character/morpheme swap" program for situations like this. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mcbride, Justin Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 5:46 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Carominga Howdy, Jimm, I wonder about the division of syllables into Caro and Monga. Is it possible that it could be Ca Romonga? I ask becasue, if it were a Kaw name, I'd think it might have something to do with kke, 'turtle,' which I'm pretty sure I've seen spelled as Ca in names before. I would also look at the r as representing either Ks y or l, and -ga part at the end (if it's not been switched, as Sky suggests, which I think is probable) as possibly representing like the Ks syllable j^e, which seems to happen fairly frequently in the names I've looked at. In short, I would expect something like kke yaNmaNj^e, which doesn't ring any bells at all in Ks. Now, I don't know much at all about IOM, lexically or phonologically--maybe this makes even less sense in IOM--but thought I just might throw that out there as food for thought. All the best, -Justin On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Sky Campbell > wrote: The "caro" portion has me thinking of a few possibilities: kera (as you pointed out) giro (happy) The "monga" has me thinking of: mange (lying down) mange (chest) womanke (easy) <-- perhaps unlikely mąnka (medicine) <-- seems the most unlikely but I thought I'd throw it in there Last is a "theory" that I have that perhaps somehow, some way, "monga" might be a form of "manyi/manye". Considering how many examples of "ng" and "ny" being swapped out (sunge/sunye, -inge/-inye, etc.), I wonder if perhaps it might be a version of "manyi". Especially since that word is used in so many names already and your friend noted that it appears in other names as well. This is just speculation, of course. Speaking of which, if they could provide examples of other names that use "monga", it might help us figure it out. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 9:25 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Fw: Carominga Does anyone have some thoughts to decipher the name: "Caromonga." The last part appears to be "mange" (be in sitting position). The first could be "kera" (cleared sky). From: Greg Olson Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 4:48 PM To: Jimm GoodTracks Subject: Carominga Jimm, while proofing my manuscript, I came across an Ioway name I had overlooked. Caromonga. He is mentioned insome council meetings during the 1840s. I notice the end of the name- monga -appears in other names too. Greg -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. ­­ -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 16156 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 6231 bytes Desc: image002.jpg URL: From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG Wed Jul 23 19:19:51 2014 From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 14:19:51 -0500 Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga In-Reply-To: <4c62ab0d41d84d2d83b9d3dfa5ae9ef0@DM2PR08MB525.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Those names are listed with "manyi" in other sources. For example, Catlin has "Neu-mon-ya" and "Wash-ka-mon-ya" where that "manyi" can (usually) refer to "walk" or "always". Ioway treaties has spellings like "Washcommanee" and "Ne-o-mon-ni". What I'm thinking is that perhaps the "monga" came from looking a poor copies of old documents and that those "g" characters are most likely "y" characters. These characters are handwritten and it only takes one little movement to "close up" a "y" at the top and make it look like a "g". I've seen "Niyu Manyi" translated as walking rain, moving rain, and always raining. I tend to lean towards that last one. The name "Washka Manyi" as been translated as great walker, great marcher, and fast dancer so that one is a little tougher. I can see how "washka" could maybe be a mash-up of "washi" (dance) and "kątha" (fast). But when I decided to hit up a Ponca friend about his name "Washka" (that's his legal name, not just his "Indian name"), I found out the full form of his name is "Washka Mathi" which he translated as "Stands Strong." I know that "mathi" in Ponca/Omaha is a cognate to the Otoe-Ioway "manyi" and also that Otoes and Ioways had the form "mathi" a long time ago. So that got me to thinking that perhaps this Ioway individual might have roughly the same name as my Ponca friend (cognate forms notwithstanding). The only trouble with that theory is that I've never seen a term "washka" to mean "strong" like it does in Ponca. Dorsey shows the Jiwere cognate to "washka" as "brixe" (which is the term I am familiar with). So is this one of those instances where Otoe-Ioway had more in common with Dhegiha almost 200 years ago and "washka" was used to mean "strong" (or a similiar idea) but no longer does? It would seem likely since some of those translations for that name have the word "great" in them along with walker or marcher. Strong walker/strong marcher perhaps? But without more information, this is just yet another thing for me to keep in the back of my mind until I find that bit of information that helps clear it up. May that day come soon! Sky Campbell Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2014 1:15 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga Sky, do we know what “monga” means in the other names, Washkamonga and Neumonga? Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2014 9:28 AM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga Greg was gracious enough to let me see the copies he was drawing from and sure enough, it looks like "monga" in the name. But what I found interesting in that document was other familiar names...Washkamonga and Neumonga which we've seen elsewhere with the "monga" portion spelled with an "ny" instead of an "ng". I also looked at the 1842 Ioway census and found "Caromonga" but instead it was spelled "Caramonya". I did a quick Google search for "Caramonya" and got a couple hits on some books that had excerpts from Hamilton's journal. He describes "Caramonya" as "an old Indian who often visits us." Unfortunately he doesn't translate the name. My first reaction was to think that perhaps Hamilton might be using his own orthography that he used in his books but the rest of the spelling doesn't bear that out. I'd love to see more of Hamilton's journal to see if there are any clues in there. Anyone know where I could get a hold of such a thing? So it looks like that ending may actually be "manyi" (but perhaps not for the "ng/ny swap" that I suggested but maybe just a handwriting issue). And it looks like both versions were written by the same person (there is the same flourish on the capital "C" in both versions of the name). Council meeting image: [cid:image001.jpg at 01CFA67E.4F680160] Ioway census image: [cid:image002.jpg at 01CFA67E.4F680160] So if it is "Cara-" instead of "Caro-", then that can open up more possibilities perhaps. But I'm still only coming up with ketą, kera and giro as my top suggestions for now. Sky Campbell Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2014 9:35 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga Importance: Low Well, going on what Jill says, the closet thing I can find is: šedánaŋe; šedánaŋa adv/prn. that distant curvilinear object yonder; that distant land in sight. However, I'm not comfortable that it is a good fit for "Carominga." I don't know if the original notation was from a French or English document, and as such, cannot know to consider the phonetic value of the "C." But going with the possibility of it being "Ké" as in "Kétan" (turtle), we have: kétan; ketúnha; keton^a (SKN); qetan (DOR) n. turtle. kétan xúha n. turtle shell. Kétan wáñi pí añáñe ke, It is said that turtle meat is good. kégrédheiñe; kégrédheiŋe spotted (or) sand turtle kehtonha (SKN) snapping turtle; snapper kémarax^ín; kemárax^in (LWR) snapping turtle ké márax^in “wrinkled turtle” mud turtle ketánna (LWR) snapping turtle; snapper But you see, the best contender is for: kéra adj. clear (sky). Clear Day; Clear Sky Appears (a personal Buffalo Clan name) n. Kéra Tán^in; K^éra Tán^in. **SEE: githóje; clear. Also, thinking about the breakup of syllables as Justin suggest, there could be a connect with: rominjí n. island. Rominjí^iŋe(mi); Romínchiŋe; Irómiŋhšji; Jérominje; Romijiiŋemi (DOR); rúmitsí (MAX) (a personal Buffalo Clan and Beaver Clan name) Little Island. Romihingu ~ Romihiŋu (SKN); Romijiiŋemi (DOR) (a personal Pigeon Clan name) Island. And there was maybe the "g" is really a "j" which gives only one unlikely possibility: mánje (?)(LWR); masjé adj/v.i. hot, warm (weather). With the above, one could squeeze out a "Turtle Island," but, this possibility is not convincing to me. SO THEN, in appreciation to everyone's input, I have arrived full circle to my original conjecture that the name that most likely fits the documented transcription is: KéraMánge (Clearing Day All About~ Prevailing). In this case, the "mánge" (sitting) is used in the sense of a positional verb, saying that the clearing of the sky, was extensive over a wide area such might be view on the breathe of the open plains. Further, such a rendering would be consistant to similar clan names. I suggest one possibilty for Grey in working with his narrative is to include with the composed name, the original transcription, such as, "KéraMánge (Clearing Day All About) [Carminga (Document Source citations)]. Unless, new evidence appears, or further information, this is the best that can be made of that name. Hánhe Pi, Good Night, Buenas Noches! From: Greer, Jill Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2014 6:22 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Carominga Justin and Sky - You guys with your programming talents- impressive! Just one question for Jimm and Greg - if the original person who transcribed the name was French (or a mixed blood literate in French- as was common around St. Joseph), the first syllabie "Ca" could even be /Sa/ or /se/ rather than Key, n'est pas? I hate to muddy the waters, but all it takes is one person to miss the cedilla and we've switched the sound totally. These old names are so slippery, but fascinating! Best, Jill On Jul 18, 2014, at 8:17 PM, "Mcbride, Justin" > wrote: When you showed me that program last year, Sky, I remember thinking, "Now, THIS is awesome!" As a guy who, for years, was asked questions like, "What's my Granddad's name mean?" on a weekly basis, only to be handed a string of indecipherable 'ah's, 'eh's, and hyphens with a few consonants mixed in for good measure, I would have relished the opportunity to see a list the possible permutations presented at once. Now, if you could just build in some phonotactic constraint logic and SQL interaction with some sort of lexical database to provide suggestions--you know, the easy stuff--you'd have the proverbial better mousetrap! :) Ah, it's fun to dream! By the way, the name Kke Leze was the name of one of the last living male L1 Ks speakers. -jtm On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 7:34 PM, Sky Campbell > wrote: Justin, I thought of that too (and even thought of turtle LOL...ke for ketą) but nothing came to mind for the rest. We have a precedent for this which is a name listed as "Ke Greðe" (Prairie Turtle/Spotted Turtle). I seem to remember one or two more but can't think of them off the top of my head. And thanks for pointing out the "g" possibly being the "j" sound. That is usually one of the first things I consider but it totally slipped my mind. Man, I really, REALLY need to finish my "character/morpheme swap" program for situations like this. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mcbride, Justin Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 5:46 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Carominga Howdy, Jimm, I wonder about the division of syllables into Caro and Monga. Is it possible that it could be Ca Romonga? I ask becasue, if it were a Kaw name, I'd think it might have something to do with kke, 'turtle,' which I'm pretty sure I've seen spelled as Ca in names before. I would also look at the r as representing either Ks y or l, and -ga part at the end (if it's not been switched, as Sky suggests, which I think is probable) as possibly representing like the Ks syllable j^e, which seems to happen fairly frequently in the names I've looked at. In short, I would expect something like kke yaNmaNj^e, which doesn't ring any bells at all in Ks. Now, I don't know much at all about IOM, lexically or phonologically--maybe this makes even less sense in IOM--but thought I just might throw that out there as food for thought. All the best, -Justin On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Sky Campbell > wrote: The "caro" portion has me thinking of a few possibilities: kera (as you pointed out) giro (happy) The "monga" has me thinking of: mange (lying down) mange (chest) womanke (easy) <-- perhaps unlikely mąnka (medicine) <-- seems the most unlikely but I thought I'd throw it in there Last is a "theory" that I have that perhaps somehow, some way, "monga" might be a form of "manyi/manye". Considering how many examples of "ng" and "ny" being swapped out (sunge/sunye, -inge/-inye, etc.), I wonder if perhaps it might be a version of "manyi". Especially since that word is used in so many names already and your friend noted that it appears in other names as well. This is just speculation, of course. Speaking of which, if they could provide examples of other names that use "monga", it might help us figure it out. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 9:25 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Fw: Carominga Does anyone have some thoughts to decipher the name: "Caromonga." The last part appears to be "mange" (be in sitting position). The first could be "kera" (cleared sky). From: Greg Olson Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 4:48 PM To: Jimm GoodTracks Subject: Carominga Jimm, while proofing my manuscript, I came across an Ioway name I had overlooked. Caromonga. He is mentioned insome council meetings during the 1840s. I notice the end of the name- monga -appears in other names too. 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URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 16156 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 6231 bytes Desc: image002.jpg URL: From stanleyl at LUTHER.EDU Thu Jul 24 20:11:37 2014 From: stanleyl at LUTHER.EDU (Lori Stanley) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2014 15:11:37 -0500 Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E436C33FE5D423@Server6-EX.omtribe.net> Message-ID: Sky, Here is the reference for the published version of Hamilton's journal: Hamilton, William 1885 Autobiography of Reverend William Hamilton. *Transactions and Reports of the Nebraska State Historical Society* 1:60-75. I'm sure I have a copy and could send you a PDF, but I'm out of town for a few days. Let me know if you get hold of it. If not, I'll send it when I get back. Lori On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 2:19 PM, Campbell, Sky wrote: > Those names are listed with "manyi" in other sources. For example, Catlin > has "Neu-mon-ya" and "Wash-ka-mon-ya" where that "manyi" can (usually) > refer to "walk" or "always". Ioway treaties has spellings like > "Washcommanee" and "Ne-o-mon-ni". What I'm thinking is that perhaps the > "monga" came from looking a poor copies of old documents and that those "g" > characters are most likely "y" characters. These characters are > handwritten and it only takes one little movement to "close up" a "y" at > the top and make it look like a "g". > > > > I've seen "Niyu Manyi" translated as walking rain, moving rain, and always > raining. I tend to lean towards that last one. > > > > The name "Washka Manyi" as been translated as great walker, great marcher, > and fast dancer so that one is a little tougher. I can see how "washka" > could maybe be a mash-up of "washi" (dance) and "kątha" (fast). But when I > decided to hit up a Ponca friend about his name "Washka" (that's his legal > name, not just his "Indian name"), I found out the full form of his name is > "Washka Mathi" which he translated as "Stands Strong." I know that "mathi" > in Ponca/Omaha is a cognate to the Otoe-Ioway "manyi" and also that Otoes > and Ioways had the form "mathi" a long time ago. So that got me to > thinking that perhaps this Ioway individual might have roughly the same > name as my Ponca friend (cognate forms notwithstanding). The only trouble > with that theory is that I've never seen a term "washka" to mean "strong" > like it does in Ponca. Dorsey shows the Jiwere cognate to "washka" as > "brixe" (which is the term I am familiar with). So is this one of those > instances where Otoe-Ioway had more in common with Dhegiha almost 200 years > ago and "washka" was used to mean "strong" (or a similiar idea) but no > longer does? It would seem likely since some of those translations for > that name have the word "great" in them along with walker or marcher. > Strong walker/strong marcher perhaps? But without more information, this > is just yet another thing for me to keep in the back of my mind until I > find that bit of information that helps clear it up. May that day come > soon! > > > > *Sky Campbell* > > Language Director > > Otoe-Missouria Tribe > > (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 > > sky at omtribe.org > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of > *Rory Larson > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 23, 2014 1:15 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga > > > > Sky, do we know what “monga” means in the other names, Washkamonga and > Neumonga? > > > > Best, > > Rory > > > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > ] *On Behalf Of *Campbell, Sky > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 23, 2014 9:28 AM > *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU > *Subject:* Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga > > > > Greg was gracious enough to let me see the copies he was drawing from and > sure enough, it looks like "monga" in the name. But what I found > interesting in that document was other familiar names...Washkamonga and > Neumonga which we've seen elsewhere with the "monga" portion spelled with > an "ny" instead of an "ng". I also looked at the 1842 Ioway census and > found "Caromonga" but instead it was spelled "Caramonya". I did a quick > Google search for "Caramonya" and got a couple hits on some books that had > excerpts from Hamilton's journal. He describes "Caramonya" as "an old > Indian who often visits us." Unfortunately he doesn't translate the name. > My first reaction was to think that perhaps Hamilton might be using his own > orthography that he used in his books but the rest of the spelling doesn't > bear that out. I'd love to see more of Hamilton's journal to see if there > are any clues in there. Anyone know where I could get a hold of such a > thing? > > > > So it looks like that ending may actually be "manyi" (but perhaps not for > the "ng/ny swap" that I suggested but maybe just a handwriting issue). And > it looks like both versions were written by the same person (there is the > same flourish on the capital "C" in both versions of the name). > > > > Council meeting image: > > [image: Caromonga.jpg] > > > > Ioway census image: > > [image: Caramonya.jpg] > > > > So if it is "Cara-" instead of "Caro-", then that can open up more > possibilities perhaps. But I'm still only coming up with ketą, kera and > giro as my top suggestions for now. > > > > *Sky Campbell* > > Language Director > > Otoe-Missouria Tribe > > (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 > > sky at omtribe.org > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > ] *On Behalf Of *Jimm G. GoodTracks > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 22, 2014 9:35 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga > *Importance:* Low > > > > Well, going on what Jill says, the closet thing I can find is: *šedánaŋe; > šedánaŋa** adv/prn. *that distant curvilinear object yonder; that > distant land in sight. However, I'm not comfortable that it is a good > fit for "Carominga." I don't know if the original notation was from a > French or English document, and as such, cannot know to consider the > phonetic value of the "C." > > > > But going with the possibility of it being "Ké" as in "Kétan" (turtle), we > have: > > *kétan; ketúnha;* keton^a (SKN); qetan (DOR)* n. *turtle. *kétan xúha** > n. *turtle shell. *Kétan* wáñi pí añáñe ke, It is said that *turtle* > meat is good. > > *kégrédheiñe; kégrédheiŋe* spotted (or) sand turtle > > *kehtonha* (SKN) snapping turtle; snapper > > *kémarax^ín; kemárax^in* (LWR) snapping turtle > > *ké márax^in* “wrinkled turtle” mud turtle > > *ketánna* (LWR) snapping turtle; snapper > > > > But you see, the best contender is for: > > * kéra** adj. *clear (*sky*). *Clear Day;* *Clear Sky > Appears* (*a personal Buffalo Clan name*)* n. *Kéra Tán^in; K^éra Tán^i > n. ***SEE*: *githóje; clear.* > > > > Also, thinking about the breakup of syllables as Justin suggest, there > could be a connect with: > > *rominjí** n. *island. *Rominjí^iŋe(mi); Romínchiŋe; > Irómiŋhšji; Jérominje;* Romijiiŋemi (DOR); rúmitsí (MAX) (*a personal > Buffalo Clan and Beaver Clan name*) Little Island. *Romihingu ~ > Romihiŋu* (SKN)*;* Romijiiŋemi (DOR) (*a personal Pigeon Clan name*) > Island. > > And there was maybe the "g" is really a "j" which gives only one unlikely > possibility: > > *mánje* (?)(LWR)*; masjé** adj/v.i. *hot, warm (*weather*). > > With the above, one could squeeze out a "Turtle Island," but, this > possibility is not convincing to me. > > > > *SO THEN, *in appreciation to everyone's input, I have arrived full > circle to my original conjecture that the name that most likely fits the > documented transcription is: > > > > *KéraMánge* (Clearing Day All About~ Prevailing). In this case, the > "mánge" (sitting) is used in the sense of a positional verb, saying that > the clearing of the sky, was extensive over a wide area such might be view > on the breathe of the open plains. Further, such a rendering would be > consistant to similar clan names. > > > > I suggest one possibilty for Grey in working with his narrative is to > include with the composed name, the original transcription, such as, " > *KéraMánge* (Clearing Day All About) [Carminga (Document Source > citations)]. Unless, new evidence appears, or further information, this > is the best that can be made of that name. > > > > Hánhe Pi, Good Night, Buenas Noches! > > > > > > > > *From:* Greer, Jill > > *Sent:* Saturday, July 19, 2014 6:22 PM > > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > > *Subject:* Re: Carominga > > > > Justin and Sky - > > You guys with your programming talents- impressive! > > > > Just one question for Jimm and Greg - if the original person who > transcribed the name was French (or a mixed blood literate in French- as > was common around St. Joseph), the first syllabie "Ca" could even be /Sa/ > or /se/ rather than Key, n'est pas? I hate to muddy the waters, but all > it takes is one person to miss the cedilla and we've switched the sound > totally. These old names are so slippery, but fascinating! > > > > Best, > > Jill > > > > > > On Jul 18, 2014, at 8:17 PM, "Mcbride, Justin" < > jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU> > > wrote: > > > > When you showed me that program last year, Sky, I remember thinking, "Now, > THIS is awesome!" As a guy who, for years, was asked questions like, > "What's my Granddad's name mean?" on a weekly basis, only to be handed a > string of indecipherable 'ah's, 'eh's, and hyphens with a few consonants > mixed in for good measure, I would have relished the opportunity to see a > list the possible permutations presented at once. Now, if you could just > build in some phonotactic constraint logic and SQL interaction with some > sort of lexical database to provide suggestions--you know, the easy > stuff--you'd have the proverbial better mousetrap! :) Ah, it's fun to > dream! > > > > By the way, the name Kke Leze was the name of one of the last living male > L1 Ks speakers. -jtm > > > > On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 7:34 PM, Sky Campbell > wrote: > > Justin, > > > > I thought of that too (and even thought of turtle LOL...ke for ketą) but > nothing came to mind for the rest. We have a precedent for this which is a > name listed as "Ke Greðe" (Prairie Turtle/Spotted Turtle). I seem to > remember one or two more but can't think of them off the top of my head. > > > > And thanks for pointing out the "g" possibly being the "j" sound. That is > usually one of the first things I consider but it totally slipped my mind. > Man, I really, REALLY need to finish my "character/morpheme swap" program > for situations like this. > > > > Sky > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of > *Mcbride, Justin > *Sent:* Friday, July 18, 2014 5:46 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Re: Carominga > > > > Howdy, Jimm, > > > > I wonder about the division of syllables into Caro and Monga. Is it > possible that it could be Ca Romonga? I ask becasue, if it were a Kaw name, > I'd think it might have something to do with kke, 'turtle,' which I'm > pretty sure I've seen spelled as Ca in names before. I would also look at > the r as representing either Ks y or l, and -ga part at the end (if it's > not been switched, as Sky suggests, which I think is probable) as possibly > representing like the Ks syllable j^e, which seems to happen fairly > frequently in the names I've looked at. In short, I would expect something > like kke yaNmaNj^e, which doesn't ring any bells at all in Ks. Now, I don't > know much at all about IOM, lexically or phonologically--maybe this makes > even less sense in IOM--but thought I just might throw that out there as > food for thought. > > > > All the best, > > -Justin > > > > On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Sky Campbell > wrote: > > The "caro" portion has me thinking of a few possibilities: > > > > kera (as you pointed out) > > giro (happy) > > > > The "monga" has me thinking of: > > > > mange (lying down) > > mange (chest) > > womanke (easy) <-- perhaps unlikely > > mąnka (medicine) <-- seems the most unlikely but I thought I'd throw it in > there > > > > Last is a "theory" that I have that perhaps somehow, some way, "monga" > might be a form of "manyi/manye". Considering how many examples of "ng" > and "ny" being swapped out (sunge/sunye, -inge/-inye, etc.), I wonder if > perhaps it might be a version of "manyi". Especially since that word is > used in so many names already and your friend noted that it appears in > other names as well. This is just speculation, of course. Speaking of > which, if they could provide examples of other names that use "monga", it > might help us figure it out. > > > > Sky > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of > *Jimm G. GoodTracks > *Sent:* Friday, July 18, 2014 9:25 AM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Fw: Carominga > > > > Does anyone have some thoughts to decipher the name: "Caromonga." The > last part appears to be "mange" (be in sitting position). The first could > be "kera" (cleared sky). > > > > > > *From:* Greg Olson > > *Sent:* Friday, July 11, 2014 4:48 PM > > *To:* Jimm GoodTracks > > *Subject:* Carominga > > > > Jimm, while proofing my manuscript, I came across an Ioway name I had > overlooked. Caromonga. He is mentioned insome council meetings during the > 1840s. I notice the end of the name- monga -appears in other names too. > > > > Greg > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. > > > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. > > > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. > > > > > > This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject > to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for > the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended > recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of > the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by > law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please > notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your > subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not > accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier > DMARC policies. > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. > > > ­­ > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. > > ­­ > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. > -- Lori A. Stanley Professor of Anthropology Luther College 700 College Drive Decorah, Iowa 52101 563-387-1283 -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 6231 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 16156 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Thu Jul 24 21:58:26 2014 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm G. GoodTracks) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2014 16:58:26 -0500 Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lori: Darihga: I would appreciate it if you could also send me a PDF of the Hamilton Journal. I do not believe I have ever seen it. Aho, Jimm From: Lori Stanley Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 3:11 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga Sky, Here is the reference for the published version of Hamilton's journal: Hamilton, William 1885 Autobiography of Reverend William Hamilton. Transactions and Reports of the Nebraska State Historical Society 1:60-75. I'm sure I have a copy and could send you a PDF, but I'm out of town for a few days. Let me know if you get hold of it. If not, I'll send it when I get back. Lori On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 2:19 PM, Campbell, Sky wrote: Those names are listed with "manyi" in other sources. For example, Catlin has "Neu-mon-ya" and "Wash-ka-mon-ya" where that "manyi" can (usually) refer to "walk" or "always". Ioway treaties has spellings like "Washcommanee" and "Ne-o-mon-ni". What I'm thinking is that perhaps the "monga" came from looking a poor copies of old documents and that those "g" characters are most likely "y" characters. These characters are handwritten and it only takes one little movement to "close up" a "y" at the top and make it look like a "g". I've seen "Niyu Manyi" translated as walking rain, moving rain, and always raining. I tend to lean towards that last one. The name "Washka Manyi" as been translated as great walker, great marcher, and fast dancer so that one is a little tougher. I can see how "washka" could maybe be a mash-up of "washi" (dance) and "kątha" (fast). But when I decided to hit up a Ponca friend about his name "Washka" (that's his legal name, not just his "Indian name"), I found out the full form of his name is "Washka Mathi" which he translated as "Stands Strong." I know that "mathi" in Ponca/Omaha is a cognate to the Otoe-Ioway "manyi" and also that Otoes and Ioways had the form "mathi" a long time ago. So that got me to thinking that perhaps this Ioway individual might have roughly the same name as my Ponca friend (cognate forms notwithstanding). The only trouble with that theory is that I've never seen a term "washka" to mean "strong" like it does in Ponca. Dorsey shows the Jiwere cognate to "washka" as "brixe" (which is the term I am familiar with). So is this one of those instances where Otoe-Ioway had more in common with Dhegiha almost 200 years ago and "washka" was used to mean "strong" (or a similiar idea) but no longer does? It would seem likely since some of those translations for that name have the word "great" in them along with walker or marcher. Strong walker/strong marcher perhaps? But without more information, this is just yet another thing for me to keep in the back of my mind until I find that bit of information that helps clear it up. May that day come soon! Sky Campbell Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2014 1:15 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga Sky, do we know what “monga” means in the other names, Washkamonga and Neumonga? Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2014 9:28 AM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga Greg was gracious enough to let me see the copies he was drawing from and sure enough, it looks like "monga" in the name. But what I found interesting in that document was other familiar names...Washkamonga and Neumonga which we've seen elsewhere with the "monga" portion spelled with an "ny" instead of an "ng". I also looked at the 1842 Ioway census and found "Caromonga" but instead it was spelled "Caramonya". I did a quick Google search for "Caramonya" and got a couple hits on some books that had excerpts from Hamilton's journal. He describes "Caramonya" as "an old Indian who often visits us." Unfortunately he doesn't translate the name. My first reaction was to think that perhaps Hamilton might be using his own orthography that he used in his books but the rest of the spelling doesn't bear that out. I'd love to see more of Hamilton's journal to see if there are any clues in there. Anyone know where I could get a hold of such a thing? So it looks like that ending may actually be "manyi" (but perhaps not for the "ng/ny swap" that I suggested but maybe just a handwriting issue). And it looks like both versions were written by the same person (there is the same flourish on the capital "C" in both versions of the name). Council meeting image: Ioway census image: So if it is "Cara-" instead of "Caro-", then that can open up more possibilities perhaps. But I'm still only coming up with ketą, kera and giro as my top suggestions for now. Sky Campbell Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2014 9:35 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga Importance: Low Well, going on what Jill says, the closet thing I can find is: šedánaŋe; šedánaŋa adv/prn. that distant curvilinear object yonder; that distant land in sight. However, I'm not comfortable that it is a good fit for "Carominga." I don't know if the original notation was from a French or English document, and as such, cannot know to consider the phonetic value of the "C." But going with the possibility of it being "Ké" as in "Kétan" (turtle), we have: kétan; ketúnha; keton^a (SKN); qetan (DOR) n. turtle. kétan xúha n. turtle shell. Kétan wáñi pí añáñe ke, It is said that turtle meat is good. kégrédheiñe; kégrédheiŋe spotted (or) sand turtle kehtonha (SKN) snapping turtle; snapper kémarax^ín; kemárax^in (LWR) snapping turtle ké márax^in “wrinkled turtle” mud turtle ketánna (LWR) snapping turtle; snapper But you see, the best contender is for: kéra adj. clear (sky). Clear Day; Clear Sky Appears (a personal Buffalo Clan name) n. Kéra Tán^in; K^éra Tán^in. **SEE: githóje; clear. Also, thinking about the breakup of syllables as Justin suggest, there could be a connect with: rominjí n. island. Rominjí^iŋe(mi); Romínchiŋe; Irómiŋhšji; Jérominje; Romijiiŋemi (DOR); rúmitsí (MAX) (a personal Buffalo Clan and Beaver Clan name) Little Island. Romihingu ~ Romihiŋu (SKN); Romijiiŋemi (DOR) (a personal Pigeon Clan name) Island. And there was maybe the "g" is really a "j" which gives only one unlikely possibility: mánje (?)(LWR); masjé adj/v.i. hot, warm (weather). With the above, one could squeeze out a "Turtle Island," but, this possibility is not convincing to me. SO THEN, in appreciation to everyone's input, I have arrived full circle to my original conjecture that the name that most likely fits the documented transcription is: KéraMánge (Clearing Day All About~ Prevailing). In this case, the "mánge" (sitting) is used in the sense of a positional verb, saying that the clearing of the sky, was extensive over a wide area such might be view on the breathe of the open plains. Further, such a rendering would be consistant to similar clan names. I suggest one possibilty for Grey in working with his narrative is to include with the composed name, the original transcription, such as, "KéraMánge (Clearing Day All About) [Carminga (Document Source citations)]. Unless, new evidence appears, or further information, this is the best that can be made of that name. Hánhe Pi, Good Night, Buenas Noches! From: Greer, Jill Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2014 6:22 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Carominga Justin and Sky - You guys with your programming talents- impressive! Just one question for Jimm and Greg - if the original person who transcribed the name was French (or a mixed blood literate in French- as was common around St. Joseph), the first syllabie "Ca" could even be /Sa/ or /se/ rather than Key, n'est pas? I hate to muddy the waters, but all it takes is one person to miss the cedilla and we've switched the sound totally. These old names are so slippery, but fascinating! Best, Jill On Jul 18, 2014, at 8:17 PM, "Mcbride, Justin" wrote: When you showed me that program last year, Sky, I remember thinking, "Now, THIS is awesome!" As a guy who, for years, was asked questions like, "What's my Granddad's name mean?" on a weekly basis, only to be handed a string of indecipherable 'ah's, 'eh's, and hyphens with a few consonants mixed in for good measure, I would have relished the opportunity to see a list the possible permutations presented at once. Now, if you could just build in some phonotactic constraint logic and SQL interaction with some sort of lexical database to provide suggestions--you know, the easy stuff--you'd have the proverbial better mousetrap! :) Ah, it's fun to dream! By the way, the name Kke Leze was the name of one of the last living male L1 Ks speakers. -jtm On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 7:34 PM, Sky Campbell wrote: Justin, I thought of that too (and even thought of turtle LOL...ke for ketą) but nothing came to mind for the rest. We have a precedent for this which is a name listed as "Ke Greðe" (Prairie Turtle/Spotted Turtle). I seem to remember one or two more but can't think of them off the top of my head. And thanks for pointing out the "g" possibly being the "j" sound. That is usually one of the first things I consider but it totally slipped my mind. Man, I really, REALLY need to finish my "character/morpheme swap" program for situations like this. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mcbride, Justin Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 5:46 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Carominga Howdy, Jimm, I wonder about the division of syllables into Caro and Monga. Is it possible that it could be Ca Romonga? I ask becasue, if it were a Kaw name, I'd think it might have something to do with kke, 'turtle,' which I'm pretty sure I've seen spelled as Ca in names before. I would also look at the r as representing either Ks y or l, and -ga part at the end (if it's not been switched, as Sky suggests, which I think is probable) as possibly representing like the Ks syllable j^e, which seems to happen fairly frequently in the names I've looked at. In short, I would expect something like kke yaNmaNj^e, which doesn't ring any bells at all in Ks. Now, I don't know much at all about IOM, lexically or phonologically--maybe this makes even less sense in IOM--but thought I just might throw that out there as food for thought. All the best, -Justin On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Sky Campbell wrote: The "caro" portion has me thinking of a few possibilities: kera (as you pointed out) giro (happy) The "monga" has me thinking of: mange (lying down) mange (chest) womanke (easy) <-- perhaps unlikely mąnka (medicine) <-- seems the most unlikely but I thought I'd throw it in there Last is a "theory" that I have that perhaps somehow, some way, "monga" might be a form of "manyi/manye". Considering how many examples of "ng" and "ny" being swapped out (sunge/sunye, -inge/-inye, etc.), I wonder if perhaps it might be a version of "manyi". Especially since that word is used in so many names already and your friend noted that it appears in other names as well. This is just speculation, of course. Speaking of which, if they could provide examples of other names that use "monga", it might help us figure it out. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 9:25 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Fw: Carominga Does anyone have some thoughts to decipher the name: "Caromonga." The last part appears to be "mange" (be in sitting position). The first could be "kera" (cleared sky). From: Greg Olson Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 4:48 PM To: Jimm GoodTracks Subject: Carominga Jimm, while proofing my manuscript, I came across an Ioway name I had overlooked. Caromonga. He is mentioned insome council meetings during the 1840s. I notice the end of the name- monga -appears in other names too. Greg -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. ­­ -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. ­­ -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Lori A. Stanley Professor of Anthropology Luther College 700 College Drive Decorah, Iowa 52101 563-387-1283 -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 16156 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 6231 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Fri Jul 25 00:06:14 2014 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM (Sky Campbell) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2014 19:06:14 -0500 Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks for the idea but unfortunately I already have that. It isn't his journal but instead Hamilton was asked to write an autobiography. This autobiography is great reading and is in the form of a letter but unfortunately it isn't his journal :(. I'll attach it to this email just in case someone is interested. Jimm, I believe you've seen this before but if not, happy reading! :) Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Lori Stanley Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 3:12 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga Sky, Here is the reference for the published version of Hamilton's journal: Hamilton, William 1885 Autobiography of Reverend William Hamilton. Transactions and Reports of the Nebraska State Historical Society 1:60-75. I'm sure I have a copy and could send you a PDF, but I'm out of town for a few days. Let me know if you get hold of it. If not, I'll send it when I get back. Lori On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 2:19 PM, Campbell, Sky wrote: Those names are listed with "manyi" in other sources. For example, Catlin has "Neu-mon-ya" and "Wash-ka-mon-ya" where that "manyi" can (usually) refer to "walk" or "always". Ioway treaties has spellings like "Washcommanee" and "Ne-o-mon-ni". What I'm thinking is that perhaps the "monga" came from looking a poor copies of old documents and that those "g" characters are most likely "y" characters. These characters are handwritten and it only takes one little movement to "close up" a "y" at the top and make it look like a "g". I've seen "Niyu Manyi" translated as walking rain, moving rain, and always raining. I tend to lean towards that last one. The name "Washka Manyi" as been translated as great walker, great marcher, and fast dancer so that one is a little tougher. I can see how "washka" could maybe be a mash-up of "washi" (dance) and "kątha" (fast). But when I decided to hit up a Ponca friend about his name "Washka" (that's his legal name, not just his "Indian name"), I found out the full form of his name is "Washka Mathi" which he translated as "Stands Strong." I know that "mathi" in Ponca/Omaha is a cognate to the Otoe-Ioway "manyi" and also that Otoes and Ioways had the form "mathi" a long time ago. So that got me to thinking that perhaps this Ioway individual might have roughly the same name as my Ponca friend (cognate forms notwithstanding). The only trouble with that theory is that I've never seen a term "washka" to mean "strong" like it does in Ponca. Dorsey shows the Jiwere cognate to "washka" as "brixe" (which is the term I am familiar with). So is this one of those instances where Otoe-Ioway had more in common with Dhegiha almost 200 years ago and "washka" was used to mean "strong" (or a similiar idea) but no longer does? It would seem likely since some of those translations for that name have the word "great" in them along with walker or marcher. Strong walker/strong marcher perhaps? But without more information, this is just yet another thing for me to keep in the back of my mind until I find that bit of information that helps clear it up. May that day come soon! Sky Campbell Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2014 1:15 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga Sky, do we know what “monga” means in the other names, Washkamonga and Neumonga? Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2014 9:28 AM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga Greg was gracious enough to let me see the copies he was drawing from and sure enough, it looks like "monga" in the name. But what I found interesting in that document was other familiar names...Washkamonga and Neumonga which we've seen elsewhere with the "monga" portion spelled with an "ny" instead of an "ng". I also looked at the 1842 Ioway census and found "Caromonga" but instead it was spelled "Caramonya". I did a quick Google search for "Caramonya" and got a couple hits on some books that had excerpts from Hamilton's journal. He describes "Caramonya" as "an old Indian who often visits us." Unfortunately he doesn't translate the name. My first reaction was to think that perhaps Hamilton might be using his own orthography that he used in his books but the rest of the spelling doesn't bear that out. I'd love to see more of Hamilton's journal to see if there are any clues in there. Anyone know where I could get a hold of such a thing? So it looks like that ending may actually be "manyi" (but perhaps not for the "ng/ny swap" that I suggested but maybe just a handwriting issue). And it looks like both versions were written by the same person (there is the same flourish on the capital "C" in both versions of the name). Council meeting image: Caromonga.jpg Ioway census image: Caramonya.jpg So if it is "Cara-" instead of "Caro-", then that can open up more possibilities perhaps. But I'm still only coming up with ketą, kera and giro as my top suggestions for now. Sky Campbell Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2014 9:35 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga Importance: Low Well, going on what Jill says, the closet thing I can find is: šedánaŋe; šedánaŋa adv/prn. that distant curvilinear object yonder; that distant land in sight. However, I'm not comfortable that it is a good fit for "Carominga." I don't know if the original notation was from a French or English document, and as such, cannot know to consider the phonetic value of the "C." But going with the possibility of it being "Ké" as in "Kétan" (turtle), we have: kétan; ketúnha; keton^a (SKN); qetan (DOR) n. turtle. kétan xúha n. turtle shell. Kétan wáñi pí añáñe ke, It is said that turtle meat is good. kégrédheiñe; kégrédheiŋe spotted (or) sand turtle kehtonha (SKN) snapping turtle; snapper kémarax^ín; kemárax^in (LWR) snapping turtle ké márax^in “wrinkled turtle” mud turtle ketánna (LWR) snapping turtle; snapper But you see, the best contender is for: kéra adj. clear (sky). Clear Day; Clear Sky Appears (a personal Buffalo Clan name) n. Kéra Tán^in; K^éra Tán^in. **SEE: githóje; clear. Also, thinking about the breakup of syllables as Justin suggest, there could be a connect with: rominjí n. island. Rominjí^iŋe(mi); Romínchiŋe; Irómiŋhšji; Jérominje; Romijiiŋemi (DOR); rúmitsí (MAX) (a personal Buffalo Clan and Beaver Clan name) Little Island. Romihingu ~ Romihiŋu (SKN); Romijiiŋemi (DOR) (a personal Pigeon Clan name) Island. And there was maybe the "g" is really a "j" which gives only one unlikely possibility: mánje (?)(LWR); masjé adj/v.i. hot, warm (weather). With the above, one could squeeze out a "Turtle Island," but, this possibility is not convincing to me. SO THEN, in appreciation to everyone's input, I have arrived full circle to my original conjecture that the name that most likely fits the documented transcription is: KéraMánge (Clearing Day All About~ Prevailing). In this case, the "mánge" (sitting) is used in the sense of a positional verb, saying that the clearing of the sky, was extensive over a wide area such might be view on the breathe of the open plains. Further, such a rendering would be consistant to similar clan names. I suggest one possibilty for Grey in working with his narrative is to include with the composed name, the original transcription, such as, "KéraMánge (Clearing Day All About) [Carminga (Document Source citations)]. Unless, new evidence appears, or further information, this is the best that can be made of that name. Hánhe Pi, Good Night, Buenas Noches! From: Greer, Jill Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2014 6:22 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Carominga Justin and Sky - You guys with your programming talents- impressive! Just one question for Jimm and Greg - if the original person who transcribed the name was French (or a mixed blood literate in French- as was common around St. Joseph), the first syllabie "Ca" could even be /Sa/ or /se/ rather than Key, n'est pas? I hate to muddy the waters, but all it takes is one person to miss the cedilla and we've switched the sound totally. These old names are so slippery, but fascinating! Best, Jill On Jul 18, 2014, at 8:17 PM, "Mcbride, Justin" wrote: When you showed me that program last year, Sky, I remember thinking, "Now, THIS is awesome!" As a guy who, for years, was asked questions like, "What's my Granddad's name mean?" on a weekly basis, only to be handed a string of indecipherable 'ah's, 'eh's, and hyphens with a few consonants mixed in for good measure, I would have relished the opportunity to see a list the possible permutations presented at once. Now, if you could just build in some phonotactic constraint logic and SQL interaction with some sort of lexical database to provide suggestions--you know, the easy stuff--you'd have the proverbial better mousetrap! :) Ah, it's fun to dream! By the way, the name Kke Leze was the name of one of the last living male L1 Ks speakers. -jtm On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 7:34 PM, Sky Campbell wrote: Justin, I thought of that too (and even thought of turtle LOL...ke for ketą) but nothing came to mind for the rest. We have a precedent for this which is a name listed as "Ke Greðe" (Prairie Turtle/Spotted Turtle). I seem to remember one or two more but can't think of them off the top of my head. And thanks for pointing out the "g" possibly being the "j" sound. That is usually one of the first things I consider but it totally slipped my mind. Man, I really, REALLY need to finish my "character/morpheme swap" program for situations like this. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mcbride, Justin Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 5:46 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Carominga Howdy, Jimm, I wonder about the division of syllables into Caro and Monga. Is it possible that it could be Ca Romonga? I ask becasue, if it were a Kaw name, I'd think it might have something to do with kke, 'turtle,' which I'm pretty sure I've seen spelled as Ca in names before. I would also look at the r as representing either Ks y or l, and -ga part at the end (if it's not been switched, as Sky suggests, which I think is probable) as possibly representing like the Ks syllable j^e, which seems to happen fairly frequently in the names I've looked at. In short, I would expect something like kke yaNmaNj^e, which doesn't ring any bells at all in Ks. Now, I don't know much at all about IOM, lexically or phonologically--maybe this makes even less sense in IOM--but thought I just might throw that out there as food for thought. All the best, -Justin On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Sky Campbell wrote: The "caro" portion has me thinking of a few possibilities: kera (as you pointed out) giro (happy) The "monga" has me thinking of: mange (lying down) mange (chest) womanke (easy) <-- perhaps unlikely mąnka (medicine) <-- seems the most unlikely but I thought I'd throw it in there Last is a "theory" that I have that perhaps somehow, some way, "monga" might be a form of "manyi/manye". Considering how many examples of "ng" and "ny" being swapped out (sunge/sunye, -inge/-inye, etc.), I wonder if perhaps it might be a version of "manyi". Especially since that word is used in so many names already and your friend noted that it appears in other names as well. This is just speculation, of course. Speaking of which, if they could provide examples of other names that use "monga", it might help us figure it out. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 9:25 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Fw: Carominga Does anyone have some thoughts to decipher the name: "Caromonga." The last part appears to be "mange" (be in sitting position). The first could be "kera" (cleared sky). From: Greg Olson Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 4:48 PM To: Jimm GoodTracks Subject: Carominga Jimm, while proofing my manuscript, I came across an Ioway name I had overlooked. Caromonga. He is mentioned insome council meetings during the 1840s. I notice the end of the name- monga -appears in other names too. Greg -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu . listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu . listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu . listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu . listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu . listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. ­­ -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. ­­ -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Lori A. Stanley Professor of Anthropology Luther College 700 College Drive Decorah, Iowa 52101 563-387-1283 -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 16156 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 6231 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Autobiography of Rev. William Hamilton.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 711817 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Fri Jul 25 02:25:09 2014 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm G. GoodTracks) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2014 21:25:09 -0500 Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga In-Reply-To: <002201cfa79c$40434180$c0c9c480$@com> Message-ID: Thanks Sky! Great read that fills in and colors some of the early day life and scenes in the life of the people. From: Sky Campbell Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 7:06 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga Thanks for the idea but unfortunately I already have that. It isn't his journal but instead Hamilton was asked to write an autobiography. This autobiography is great reading and is in the form of a letter but unfortunately it isn't his journal :(. I'll attach it to this email just in case someone is interested. Jimm, I believe you've seen this before but if not, happy reading! :) Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Lori Stanley Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 3:12 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga Sky, Here is the reference for the published version of Hamilton's journal: Hamilton, William 1885 Autobiography of Reverend William Hamilton. Transactions and Reports of the Nebraska State Historical Society 1:60-75. I'm sure I have a copy and could send you a PDF, but I'm out of town for a few days. Let me know if you get hold of it. If not, I'll send it when I get back. Lori On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 2:19 PM, Campbell, Sky wrote: Those names are listed with "manyi" in other sources. For example, Catlin has "Neu-mon-ya" and "Wash-ka-mon-ya" where that "manyi" can (usually) refer to "walk" or "always". Ioway treaties has spellings like "Washcommanee" and "Ne-o-mon-ni". What I'm thinking is that perhaps the "monga" came from looking a poor copies of old documents and that those "g" characters are most likely "y" characters. These characters are handwritten and it only takes one little movement to "close up" a "y" at the top and make it look like a "g". I've seen "Niyu Manyi" translated as walking rain, moving rain, and always raining. I tend to lean towards that last one. The name "Washka Manyi" as been translated as great walker, great marcher, and fast dancer so that one is a little tougher. I can see how "washka" could maybe be a mash-up of "washi" (dance) and "kątha" (fast). But when I decided to hit up a Ponca friend about his name "Washka" (that's his legal name, not just his "Indian name"), I found out the full form of his name is "Washka Mathi" which he translated as "Stands Strong." I know that "mathi" in Ponca/Omaha is a cognate to the Otoe-Ioway "manyi" and also that Otoes and Ioways had the form "mathi" a long time ago. So that got me to thinking that perhaps this Ioway individual might have roughly the same name as my Ponca friend (cognate forms notwithstanding). The only trouble with that theory is that I've never seen a term "washka" to mean "strong" like it does in Ponca. Dorsey shows the Jiwere cognate to "washka" as "brixe" (which is the term I am familiar with). So is this one of those instances where Otoe-Ioway had more in common with Dhegiha almost 200 years ago and "washka" was used to mean "strong" (or a similiar idea) but no longer does? It would seem likely since some of those translations for that name have the word "great" in them along with walker or marcher. Strong walker/strong marcher perhaps? But without more information, this is just yet another thing for me to keep in the back of my mind until I find that bit of information that helps clear it up. May that day come soon! Sky Campbell Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2014 1:15 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga Sky, do we know what “monga” means in the other names, Washkamonga and Neumonga? Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2014 9:28 AM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga Greg was gracious enough to let me see the copies he was drawing from and sure enough, it looks like "monga" in the name. But what I found interesting in that document was other familiar names...Washkamonga and Neumonga which we've seen elsewhere with the "monga" portion spelled with an "ny" instead of an "ng". I also looked at the 1842 Ioway census and found "Caromonga" but instead it was spelled "Caramonya". I did a quick Google search for "Caramonya" and got a couple hits on some books that had excerpts from Hamilton's journal. He describes "Caramonya" as "an old Indian who often visits us." Unfortunately he doesn't translate the name. My first reaction was to think that perhaps Hamilton might be using his own orthography that he used in his books but the rest of the spelling doesn't bear that out. I'd love to see more of Hamilton's journal to see if there are any clues in there. Anyone know where I could get a hold of such a thing? So it looks like that ending may actually be "manyi" (but perhaps not for the "ng/ny swap" that I suggested but maybe just a handwriting issue). And it looks like both versions were written by the same person (there is the same flourish on the capital "C" in both versions of the name). Council meeting image: Ioway census image: So if it is "Cara-" instead of "Caro-", then that can open up more possibilities perhaps. But I'm still only coming up with ketą, kera and giro as my top suggestions for now. Sky Campbell Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2014 9:35 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga Importance: Low Well, going on what Jill says, the closet thing I can find is: šedánaŋe; šedánaŋa adv/prn. that distant curvilinear object yonder; that distant land in sight. However, I'm not comfortable that it is a good fit for "Carominga." I don't know if the original notation was from a French or English document, and as such, cannot know to consider the phonetic value of the "C." But going with the possibility of it being "Ké" as in "Kétan" (turtle), we have: kétan; ketúnha; keton^a (SKN); qetan (DOR) n. turtle. kétan xúha n. turtle shell. Kétan wáñi pí añáñe ke, It is said that turtle meat is good. kégrédheiñe; kégrédheiŋe spotted (or) sand turtle kehtonha (SKN) snapping turtle; snapper kémarax^ín; kemárax^in (LWR) snapping turtle ké márax^in “wrinkled turtle” mud turtle ketánna (LWR) snapping turtle; snapper But you see, the best contender is for: kéra adj. clear (sky). Clear Day; Clear Sky Appears (a personal Buffalo Clan name) n. Kéra Tán^in; K^éra Tán^in. **SEE: githóje; clear. Also, thinking about the breakup of syllables as Justin suggest, there could be a connect with: rominjí n. island. Rominjí^iŋe(mi); Romínchiŋe; Irómiŋhšji; Jérominje; Romijiiŋemi (DOR); rúmitsí (MAX) (a personal Buffalo Clan and Beaver Clan name) Little Island. Romihingu ~ Romihiŋu (SKN); Romijiiŋemi (DOR) (a personal Pigeon Clan name) Island. And there was maybe the "g" is really a "j" which gives only one unlikely possibility: mánje (?)(LWR); masjé adj/v.i. hot, warm (weather). With the above, one could squeeze out a "Turtle Island," but, this possibility is not convincing to me. SO THEN, in appreciation to everyone's input, I have arrived full circle to my original conjecture that the name that most likely fits the documented transcription is: KéraMánge (Clearing Day All About~ Prevailing). In this case, the "mánge" (sitting) is used in the sense of a positional verb, saying that the clearing of the sky, was extensive over a wide area such might be view on the breathe of the open plains. Further, such a rendering would be consistant to similar clan names. I suggest one possibilty for Grey in working with his narrative is to include with the composed name, the original transcription, such as, "KéraMánge (Clearing Day All About) [Carminga (Document Source citations)]. Unless, new evidence appears, or further information, this is the best that can be made of that name. Hánhe Pi, Good Night, Buenas Noches! From: Greer, Jill Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2014 6:22 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Carominga Justin and Sky - You guys with your programming talents- impressive! Just one question for Jimm and Greg - if the original person who transcribed the name was French (or a mixed blood literate in French- as was common around St. Joseph), the first syllabie "Ca" could even be /Sa/ or /se/ rather than Key, n'est pas? I hate to muddy the waters, but all it takes is one person to miss the cedilla and we've switched the sound totally. These old names are so slippery, but fascinating! Best, Jill On Jul 18, 2014, at 8:17 PM, "Mcbride, Justin" wrote: When you showed me that program last year, Sky, I remember thinking, "Now, THIS is awesome!" As a guy who, for years, was asked questions like, "What's my Granddad's name mean?" on a weekly basis, only to be handed a string of indecipherable 'ah's, 'eh's, and hyphens with a few consonants mixed in for good measure, I would have relished the opportunity to see a list the possible permutations presented at once. Now, if you could just build in some phonotactic constraint logic and SQL interaction with some sort of lexical database to provide suggestions--you know, the easy stuff--you'd have the proverbial better mousetrap! :) Ah, it's fun to dream! By the way, the name Kke Leze was the name of one of the last living male L1 Ks speakers. -jtm On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 7:34 PM, Sky Campbell wrote: Justin, I thought of that too (and even thought of turtle LOL...ke for ketą) but nothing came to mind for the rest. We have a precedent for this which is a name listed as "Ke Greðe" (Prairie Turtle/Spotted Turtle). I seem to remember one or two more but can't think of them off the top of my head. And thanks for pointing out the "g" possibly being the "j" sound. That is usually one of the first things I consider but it totally slipped my mind. Man, I really, REALLY need to finish my "character/morpheme swap" program for situations like this. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mcbride, Justin Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 5:46 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Carominga Howdy, Jimm, I wonder about the division of syllables into Caro and Monga. Is it possible that it could be Ca Romonga? I ask becasue, if it were a Kaw name, I'd think it might have something to do with kke, 'turtle,' which I'm pretty sure I've seen spelled as Ca in names before. I would also look at the r as representing either Ks y or l, and -ga part at the end (if it's not been switched, as Sky suggests, which I think is probable) as possibly representing like the Ks syllable j^e, which seems to happen fairly frequently in the names I've looked at. In short, I would expect something like kke yaNmaNj^e, which doesn't ring any bells at all in Ks. Now, I don't know much at all about IOM, lexically or phonologically--maybe this makes even less sense in IOM--but thought I just might throw that out there as food for thought. All the best, -Justin On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Sky Campbell wrote: The "caro" portion has me thinking of a few possibilities: kera (as you pointed out) giro (happy) The "monga" has me thinking of: mange (lying down) mange (chest) womanke (easy) <-- perhaps unlikely mąnka (medicine) <-- seems the most unlikely but I thought I'd throw it in there Last is a "theory" that I have that perhaps somehow, some way, "monga" might be a form of "manyi/manye". Considering how many examples of "ng" and "ny" being swapped out (sunge/sunye, -inge/-inye, etc.), I wonder if perhaps it might be a version of "manyi". Especially since that word is used in so many names already and your friend noted that it appears in other names as well. This is just speculation, of course. Speaking of which, if they could provide examples of other names that use "monga", it might help us figure it out. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 9:25 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Fw: Carominga Does anyone have some thoughts to decipher the name: "Caromonga." The last part appears to be "mange" (be in sitting position). The first could be "kera" (cleared sky). From: Greg Olson Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 4:48 PM To: Jimm GoodTracks Subject: Carominga Jimm, while proofing my manuscript, I came across an Ioway name I had overlooked. Caromonga. He is mentioned insome council meetings during the 1840s. I notice the end of the name- monga -appears in other names too. Greg -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. ­­ -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. ­­ -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Lori A. Stanley Professor of Anthropology Luther College 700 College Drive Decorah, Iowa 52101 563-387-1283 -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 16156 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 6231 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stanleyl at LUTHER.EDU Fri Jul 25 05:48:38 2014 From: stanleyl at LUTHER.EDU (Lori Stanley) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2014 00:48:38 -0500 Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sky, After I sent the previous email it occurred to me that the 1885 autobiography was probably not what you were looking for, but I wasn't able to check the document for a reference to "Caramonya" since I don't have access to my files right now. You cleared up that question with your last email. An online search has reminded me that Hamilton's original journal is in the Lewis Henry Morgan archives, and I'm pretty sure I have a copy of it. In fact, the line about "Caramonya," the "old Indian who often visits us," sounds very familiar. I'll check on this when I get back to Decorah in a few days. Lori On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 9:25 PM, Jimm G. GoodTracks wrote: > Thanks Sky! Great read that fills in and colors some of the early day > life and scenes in the life of the people. > > *From:* Sky Campbell > *Sent:* Thursday, July 24, 2014 7:06 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga > > Thanks for the idea but unfortunately I already have that. It isn't his > journal but instead Hamilton was asked to write an autobiography. This > autobiography is great reading and is in the form of a letter but > unfortunately it isn't his journal :(. > > > > I'll attach it to this email just in case someone is interested. Jimm, I > believe you've seen this before but if not, happy reading! :) > > > > Sky > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of > *Lori Stanley > *Sent:* Thursday, July 24, 2014 3:12 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga > > > > Sky, > Here is the reference for the published version of Hamilton's journal: > > Hamilton, William > > 1885 Autobiography of Reverend William Hamilton. *Transactions and > Reports of the Nebraska State Historical Society* 1:60-75. > > > > I'm sure I have a copy and could send you a PDF, but I'm out of town for a > few days. Let me know if you get hold of it. If not, I'll send it when I > get back. > > > > Lori > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 2:19 PM, Campbell, Sky wrote: > > Those names are listed with "manyi" in other sources. For example, Catlin > has "Neu-mon-ya" and "Wash-ka-mon-ya" where that "manyi" can (usually) > refer to "walk" or "always". Ioway treaties has spellings like > "Washcommanee" and "Ne-o-mon-ni". What I'm thinking is that perhaps the > "monga" came from looking a poor copies of old documents and that those "g" > characters are most likely "y" characters. These characters are > handwritten and it only takes one little movement to "close up" a "y" at > the top and make it look like a "g". > > > > I've seen "Niyu Manyi" translated as walking rain, moving rain, and always > raining. I tend to lean towards that last one. > > > > The name "Washka Manyi" as been translated as great walker, great marcher, > and fast dancer so that one is a little tougher. I can see how "washka" > could maybe be a mash-up of "washi" (dance) and "kątha" (fast). But when I > decided to hit up a Ponca friend about his name "Washka" (that's his legal > name, not just his "Indian name"), I found out the full form of his name is > "Washka Mathi" which he translated as "Stands Strong." I know that "mathi" > in Ponca/Omaha is a cognate to the Otoe-Ioway "manyi" and also that Otoes > and Ioways had the form "mathi" a long time ago. So that got me to > thinking that perhaps this Ioway individual might have roughly the same > name as my Ponca friend (cognate forms notwithstanding). The only trouble > with that theory is that I've never seen a term "washka" to mean "strong" > like it does in Ponca. Dorsey shows the Jiwere cognate to "washka" as > "brixe" (which is the term I am familiar with). So is this one of those > instances where Otoe-Ioway had more in common with Dhegiha almost 200 years > ago and "washka" was used to mean "strong" (or a similiar idea) but no > longer does? It would seem likely since some of those translations for > that name have the word "great" in them along with walker or marcher. > Strong walker/strong marcher perhaps? But without more information, this > is just yet another thing for me to keep in the back of my mind until I > find that bit of information that helps clear it up. May that day come > soon! > > > > *Sky Campbell* > > Language Director > > Otoe-Missouria Tribe > > (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 <%28580%29%20723-4466%2C%20ext.%20111> > > sky at omtribe.org > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of > *Rory Larson > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 23, 2014 1:15 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga > > > > Sky, do we know what “monga” means in the other names, Washkamonga and > Neumonga? > > > > Best, > > Rory > > > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > ] *On Behalf Of *Campbell, Sky > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 23, 2014 9:28 AM > *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU > *Subject:* Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga > > > > Greg was gracious enough to let me see the copies he was drawing from and > sure enough, it looks like "monga" in the name. But what I found > interesting in that document was other familiar names...Washkamonga and > Neumonga which we've seen elsewhere with the "monga" portion spelled with > an "ny" instead of an "ng". I also looked at the 1842 Ioway census and > found "Caromonga" but instead it was spelled "Caramonya". I did a quick > Google search for "Caramonya" and got a couple hits on some books that had > excerpts from Hamilton's journal. He describes "Caramonya" as "an old > Indian who often visits us." Unfortunately he doesn't translate the name. > My first reaction was to think that perhaps Hamilton might be using his own > orthography that he used in his books but the rest of the spelling doesn't > bear that out. I'd love to see more of Hamilton's journal to see if there > are any clues in there. Anyone know where I could get a hold of such a > thing? > > > > So it looks like that ending may actually be "manyi" (but perhaps not for > the "ng/ny swap" that I suggested but maybe just a handwriting issue). And > it looks like both versions were written by the same person (there is the > same flourish on the capital "C" in both versions of the name). > > > > Council meeting image: > > [image: Caromonga.jpg] > > > > Ioway census image: > > [image: Caramonya.jpg] > > > > So if it is "Cara-" instead of "Caro-", then that can open up more > possibilities perhaps. But I'm still only coming up with ketą, kera and > giro as my top suggestions for now. > > > > *Sky Campbell* > > Language Director > > Otoe-Missouria Tribe > > (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 <%28580%29%20723-4466%2C%20ext.%20111> > > sky at omtribe.org > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > ] *On Behalf Of *Jimm G. GoodTracks > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 22, 2014 9:35 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga > *Importance:* Low > > > > Well, going on what Jill says, the closet thing I can find is: *šedánaŋe; > šedánaŋa** adv/prn. *that distant curvilinear object yonder; that > distant land in sight. However, I'm not comfortable that it is a good > fit for "Carominga." I don't know if the original notation was from a > French or English document, and as such, cannot know to consider the > phonetic value of the "C." > > > > But going with the possibility of it being "Ké" as in "Kétan" (turtle), we > have: > > *kétan; ketúnha;* keton^a (SKN); qetan (DOR)* n. *turtle. *kétan xúha** > n. *turtle shell. *Kétan* wáñi pí añáñe ke, It is said that *turtle* > meat is good. > > *kégrédheiñe; kégrédheiŋe* spotted (or) sand turtle > > *kehtonha* (SKN) snapping turtle; snapper > > *kémarax^ín; kemárax^in* (LWR) snapping turtle > > *ké márax^in* “wrinkled turtle” mud turtle > > *ketánna* (LWR) snapping turtle; snapper > > > > But you see, the best contender is for: > > * kéra** adj. *clear (*sky*). *Clear Day;* *Clear Sky > Appears* (*a personal Buffalo Clan name*)* n. *Kéra Tán^in; K^éra Tán^i > n. ***SEE*: *githóje; clear.* > > > > Also, thinking about the breakup of syllables as Justin suggest, there > could be a connect with: > > *rominjí** n. *island. *Rominjí^iŋe(mi); Romínchiŋe; > Irómiŋhšji; Jérominje;* Romijiiŋemi (DOR); rúmitsí (MAX) (*a personal > Buffalo Clan and Beaver Clan name*) Little Island. *Romihingu ~ > Romihiŋu* (SKN)*;* Romijiiŋemi (DOR) (*a personal Pigeon Clan name*) > Island. > > And there was maybe the "g" is really a "j" which gives only one unlikely > possibility: > > *mánje* (?)(LWR)*; masjé** adj/v.i. *hot, warm (*weather*). > > With the above, one could squeeze out a "Turtle Island," but, this > possibility is not convincing to me. > > > > *SO THEN, *in appreciation to everyone's input, I have arrived full > circle to my original conjecture that the name that most likely fits the > documented transcription is: > > > > *KéraMánge* (Clearing Day All About~ Prevailing). In this case, the > "mánge" (sitting) is used in the sense of a positional verb, saying that > the clearing of the sky, was extensive over a wide area such might be view > on the breathe of the open plains. Further, such a rendering would be > consistant to similar clan names. > > > > I suggest one possibilty for Grey in working with his narrative is to > include with the composed name, the original transcription, such as, " > *KéraMánge* (Clearing Day All About) [Carminga (Document Source > citations)]. Unless, new evidence appears, or further information, this > is the best that can be made of that name. > > > > Hánhe Pi, Good Night, Buenas Noches! > > > > > > > > *From:* Greer, Jill > > *Sent:* Saturday, July 19, 2014 6:22 PM > > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > > *Subject:* Re: Carominga > > > > Justin and Sky - > > You guys with your programming talents- impressive! > > > > Just one question for Jimm and Greg - if the original person who > transcribed the name was French (or a mixed blood literate in French- as > was common around St. Joseph), the first syllabie "Ca" could even be /Sa/ > or /se/ rather than Key, n'est pas? I hate to muddy the waters, but all > it takes is one person to miss the cedilla and we've switched the sound > totally. These old names are so slippery, but fascinating! > > > > Best, > > Jill > > > > > > On Jul 18, 2014, at 8:17 PM, "Mcbride, Justin" < > jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU> > > wrote: > > > > When you showed me that program last year, Sky, I remember thinking, "Now, > THIS is awesome!" As a guy who, for years, was asked questions like, > "What's my Granddad's name mean?" on a weekly basis, only to be handed a > string of indecipherable 'ah's, 'eh's, and hyphens with a few consonants > mixed in for good measure, I would have relished the opportunity to see a > list the possible permutations presented at once. Now, if you could just > build in some phonotactic constraint logic and SQL interaction with some > sort of lexical database to provide suggestions--you know, the easy > stuff--you'd have the proverbial better mousetrap! :) Ah, it's fun to > dream! > > > > By the way, the name Kke Leze was the name of one of the last living male > L1 Ks speakers. -jtm > > > > On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 7:34 PM, Sky Campbell > wrote: > > Justin, > > > > I thought of that too (and even thought of turtle LOL...ke for ketą) but > nothing came to mind for the rest. We have a precedent for this which is a > name listed as "Ke Greðe" (Prairie Turtle/Spotted Turtle). I seem to > remember one or two more but can't think of them off the top of my head. > > > > And thanks for pointing out the "g" possibly being the "j" sound. That is > usually one of the first things I consider but it totally slipped my mind. > Man, I really, REALLY need to finish my "character/morpheme swap" program > for situations like this. > > > > Sky > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of > *Mcbride, Justin > *Sent:* Friday, July 18, 2014 5:46 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Re: Carominga > > > > Howdy, Jimm, > > > > I wonder about the division of syllables into Caro and Monga. Is it > possible that it could be Ca Romonga? I ask becasue, if it were a Kaw name, > I'd think it might have something to do with kke, 'turtle,' which I'm > pretty sure I've seen spelled as Ca in names before. I would also look at > the r as representing either Ks y or l, and -ga part at the end (if it's > not been switched, as Sky suggests, which I think is probable) as possibly > representing like the Ks syllable j^e, which seems to happen fairly > frequently in the names I've looked at. In short, I would expect something > like kke yaNmaNj^e, which doesn't ring any bells at all in Ks. Now, I don't > know much at all about IOM, lexically or phonologically--maybe this makes > even less sense in IOM--but thought I just might throw that out there as > food for thought. > > > > All the best, > > -Justin > > > > On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Sky Campbell > wrote: > > The "caro" portion has me thinking of a few possibilities: > > > > kera (as you pointed out) > > giro (happy) > > > > The "monga" has me thinking of: > > > > mange (lying down) > > mange (chest) > > womanke (easy) <-- perhaps unlikely > > mąnka (medicine) <-- seems the most unlikely but I thought I'd throw it in > there > > > > Last is a "theory" that I have that perhaps somehow, some way, "monga" > might be a form of "manyi/manye". Considering how many examples of "ng" > and "ny" being swapped out (sunge/sunye, -inge/-inye, etc.), I wonder if > perhaps it might be a version of "manyi". Especially since that word is > used in so many names already and your friend noted that it appears in > other names as well. This is just speculation, of course. Speaking of > which, if they could provide examples of other names that use "monga", it > might help us figure it out. > > > > Sky > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of > *Jimm G. GoodTracks > *Sent:* Friday, July 18, 2014 9:25 AM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Fw: Carominga > > > > Does anyone have some thoughts to decipher the name: "Caromonga." The > last part appears to be "mange" (be in sitting position). The first could > be "kera" (cleared sky). > > > > > > *From:* Greg Olson > > *Sent:* Friday, July 11, 2014 4:48 PM > > *To:* Jimm GoodTracks > > *Subject:* Carominga > > > > Jimm, while proofing my manuscript, I came across an Ioway name I had > overlooked. Caromonga. He is mentioned insome council meetings during the > 1840s. I notice the end of the name- monga -appears in other names too. > > > > Greg > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. > > > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. > > > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. > > > > > > This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject > to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for > the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended > recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of > the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by > law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please > notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your > subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not > accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier > DMARC policies. > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. > > > ­­ > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. > > > ­­ > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. > > > > > -- > Lori A. Stanley > Professor of Anthropology > Luther College > 700 College Drive > Decorah, Iowa 52101 > 563-387-1283 > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. > -- Lori A. Stanley Professor of Anthropology Luther College 700 College Drive Decorah, Iowa 52101 563-387-1283 -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 6231 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 16156 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG Fri Jul 25 13:27:07 2014 From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2014 08:27:07 -0500 Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Wow, thank you! I've been over Hamilton and Irvin's material up one side and down the other approximately 345,681,130 times and each time I do, I learn and understand more. We've already transcribed their books (makes it SUPER easy to do a quick search for something!) and are in the process of transliterating them. They paid so much attention to detail in those books that I'm hoping that his journal is the same way and that there is some good language information floating around in there. I'll attach a PDF of the extracts from Hamilton's journal with the mention of "Caramonya". It is on the second page (page 372) under the section of "Superstition of the Indians - Otter Dance". It is a neat little blurb about how Hamilton shot a "weasel" and that Caramonya wished he hadn't shot it because if he hadn't, he could have taken the skin and made a shirt that would make him impervious to bullets. He said if he made the shirt of one that had been shot, he'd be killed and that it needed to be choked to death instead. What I hope for is more names mentioned (Hopefully with translations...Merrill has quite a few names in his diary but not translations. I've been able to figure most of them out but there are a few that still throw me for a loop) and anything else to do with language. In the autobiography I sent last night, Hamilton mentions how the Missourias speak in a peculiar way because they were still getting used to Otoe and he also gave his own interpretation for "Wakąnda". So it is those kinds of things that I'm after. Again, thank you! Sky Campbell Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Lori Stanley Sent: Friday, July 25, 2014 12:49 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga Importance: Low Sky, After I sent the previous email it occurred to me that the 1885 autobiography was probably not what you were looking for, but I wasn't able to check the document for a reference to "Caramonya" since I don't have access to my files right now. You cleared up that question with your last email. An online search has reminded me that Hamilton's original journal is in the Lewis Henry Morgan archives, and I'm pretty sure I have a copy of it. In fact, the line about "Caramonya," the "old Indian who often visits us," sounds very familiar. I'll check on this when I get back to Decorah in a few days. Lori On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 9:25 PM, Jimm G. GoodTracks > wrote: Thanks Sky! Great read that fills in and colors some of the early day life and scenes in the life of the people. From: Sky Campbell Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 7:06 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga Thanks for the idea but unfortunately I already have that. It isn't his journal but instead Hamilton was asked to write an autobiography. This autobiography is great reading and is in the form of a letter but unfortunately it isn't his journal :(. I'll attach it to this email just in case someone is interested. Jimm, I believe you've seen this before but if not, happy reading! :) Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Lori Stanley Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 3:12 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga Sky, Here is the reference for the published version of Hamilton's journal: Hamilton, William 1885 Autobiography of Reverend William Hamilton. Transactions and Reports of the Nebraska State Historical Society 1:60-75. I'm sure I have a copy and could send you a PDF, but I'm out of town for a few days. Let me know if you get hold of it. If not, I'll send it when I get back. Lori On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 2:19 PM, Campbell, Sky > wrote: Those names are listed with "manyi" in other sources. For example, Catlin has "Neu-mon-ya" and "Wash-ka-mon-ya" where that "manyi" can (usually) refer to "walk" or "always". Ioway treaties has spellings like "Washcommanee" and "Ne-o-mon-ni". What I'm thinking is that perhaps the "monga" came from looking a poor copies of old documents and that those "g" characters are most likely "y" characters. These characters are handwritten and it only takes one little movement to "close up" a "y" at the top and make it look like a "g". I've seen "Niyu Manyi" translated as walking rain, moving rain, and always raining. I tend to lean towards that last one. The name "Washka Manyi" as been translated as great walker, great marcher, and fast dancer so that one is a little tougher. I can see how "washka" could maybe be a mash-up of "washi" (dance) and "kątha" (fast). But when I decided to hit up a Ponca friend about his name "Washka" (that's his legal name, not just his "Indian name"), I found out the full form of his name is "Washka Mathi" which he translated as "Stands Strong." I know that "mathi" in Ponca/Omaha is a cognate to the Otoe-Ioway "manyi" and also that Otoes and Ioways had the form "mathi" a long time ago. So that got me to thinking that perhaps this Ioway individual might have roughly the same name as my Ponca friend (cognate forms notwithstanding). The only trouble with that theory is that I've never seen a term "washka" to mean "strong" like it does in Ponca. Dorsey shows the Jiwere cognate to "washka" as "brixe" (which is the term I am familiar with). So is this one of those instances where Otoe-Ioway had more in common with Dhegiha almost 200 years ago and "washka" was used to mean "strong" (or a similiar idea) but no longer does? It would seem likely since some of those translations for that name have the word "great" in them along with walker or marcher. Strong walker/strong marcher perhaps? But without more information, this is just yet another thing for me to keep in the back of my mind until I find that bit of information that helps clear it up. May that day come soon! Sky Campbell Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2014 1:15 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga Sky, do we know what “monga” means in the other names, Washkamonga and Neumonga? Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2014 9:28 AM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga Greg was gracious enough to let me see the copies he was drawing from and sure enough, it looks like "monga" in the name. But what I found interesting in that document was other familiar names...Washkamonga and Neumonga which we've seen elsewhere with the "monga" portion spelled with an "ny" instead of an "ng". I also looked at the 1842 Ioway census and found "Caromonga" but instead it was spelled "Caramonya". I did a quick Google search for "Caramonya" and got a couple hits on some books that had excerpts from Hamilton's journal. He describes "Caramonya" as "an old Indian who often visits us." Unfortunately he doesn't translate the name. My first reaction was to think that perhaps Hamilton might be using his own orthography that he used in his books but the rest of the spelling doesn't bear that out. I'd love to see more of Hamilton's journal to see if there are any clues in there. Anyone know where I could get a hold of such a thing? So it looks like that ending may actually be "manyi" (but perhaps not for the "ng/ny swap" that I suggested but maybe just a handwriting issue). And it looks like both versions were written by the same person (there is the same flourish on the capital "C" in both versions of the name). Council meeting image: [cid:image001.jpg at 01CFA7E0.11AAE8C0] Ioway census image: [cid:image002.jpg at 01CFA7E0.11AAE8C0] So if it is "Cara-" instead of "Caro-", then that can open up more possibilities perhaps. But I'm still only coming up with ketą, kera and giro as my top suggestions for now. Sky Campbell Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2014 9:35 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga Importance: Low Well, going on what Jill says, the closet thing I can find is: šedánaŋe; šedánaŋa adv/prn. that distant curvilinear object yonder; that distant land in sight. However, I'm not comfortable that it is a good fit for "Carominga." I don't know if the original notation was from a French or English document, and as such, cannot know to consider the phonetic value of the "C." But going with the possibility of it being "Ké" as in "Kétan" (turtle), we have: kétan; ketúnha; keton^a (SKN); qetan (DOR) n. turtle. kétan xúha n. turtle shell. Kétan wáñi pí añáñe ke, It is said that turtle meat is good. kégrédheiñe; kégrédheiŋe spotted (or) sand turtle kehtonha (SKN) snapping turtle; snapper kémarax^ín; kemárax^in (LWR) snapping turtle ké márax^in “wrinkled turtle” mud turtle ketánna (LWR) snapping turtle; snapper But you see, the best contender is for: kéra adj. clear (sky). Clear Day; Clear Sky Appears (a personal Buffalo Clan name) n. Kéra Tán^in; K^éra Tán^in. **SEE: githóje; clear. Also, thinking about the breakup of syllables as Justin suggest, there could be a connect with: rominjí n. island. Rominjí^iŋe(mi); Romínchiŋe; Irómiŋhšji; Jérominje; Romijiiŋemi (DOR); rúmitsí (MAX) (a personal Buffalo Clan and Beaver Clan name) Little Island. Romihingu ~ Romihiŋu (SKN); Romijiiŋemi (DOR) (a personal Pigeon Clan name) Island. And there was maybe the "g" is really a "j" which gives only one unlikely possibility: mánje (?)(LWR); masjé adj/v.i. hot, warm (weather). With the above, one could squeeze out a "Turtle Island," but, this possibility is not convincing to me. SO THEN, in appreciation to everyone's input, I have arrived full circle to my original conjecture that the name that most likely fits the documented transcription is: KéraMánge (Clearing Day All About~ Prevailing). In this case, the "mánge" (sitting) is used in the sense of a positional verb, saying that the clearing of the sky, was extensive over a wide area such might be view on the breathe of the open plains. Further, such a rendering would be consistant to similar clan names. I suggest one possibilty for Grey in working with his narrative is to include with the composed name, the original transcription, such as, "KéraMánge (Clearing Day All About) [Carminga (Document Source citations)]. Unless, new evidence appears, or further information, this is the best that can be made of that name. Hánhe Pi, Good Night, Buenas Noches! From: Greer, Jill Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2014 6:22 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Carominga Justin and Sky - You guys with your programming talents- impressive! Just one question for Jimm and Greg - if the original person who transcribed the name was French (or a mixed blood literate in French- as was common around St. Joseph), the first syllabie "Ca" could even be /Sa/ or /se/ rather than Key, n'est pas? I hate to muddy the waters, but all it takes is one person to miss the cedilla and we've switched the sound totally. These old names are so slippery, but fascinating! Best, Jill On Jul 18, 2014, at 8:17 PM, "Mcbride, Justin" > wrote: When you showed me that program last year, Sky, I remember thinking, "Now, THIS is awesome!" As a guy who, for years, was asked questions like, "What's my Granddad's name mean?" on a weekly basis, only to be handed a string of indecipherable 'ah's, 'eh's, and hyphens with a few consonants mixed in for good measure, I would have relished the opportunity to see a list the possible permutations presented at once. Now, if you could just build in some phonotactic constraint logic and SQL interaction with some sort of lexical database to provide suggestions--you know, the easy stuff--you'd have the proverbial better mousetrap! :) Ah, it's fun to dream! By the way, the name Kke Leze was the name of one of the last living male L1 Ks speakers. -jtm On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 7:34 PM, Sky Campbell > wrote: Justin, I thought of that too (and even thought of turtle LOL...ke for ketą) but nothing came to mind for the rest. We have a precedent for this which is a name listed as "Ke Greðe" (Prairie Turtle/Spotted Turtle). I seem to remember one or two more but can't think of them off the top of my head. And thanks for pointing out the "g" possibly being the "j" sound. That is usually one of the first things I consider but it totally slipped my mind. Man, I really, REALLY need to finish my "character/morpheme swap" program for situations like this. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mcbride, Justin Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 5:46 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Carominga Howdy, Jimm, I wonder about the division of syllables into Caro and Monga. Is it possible that it could be Ca Romonga? I ask becasue, if it were a Kaw name, I'd think it might have something to do with kke, 'turtle,' which I'm pretty sure I've seen spelled as Ca in names before. I would also look at the r as representing either Ks y or l, and -ga part at the end (if it's not been switched, as Sky suggests, which I think is probable) as possibly representing like the Ks syllable j^e, which seems to happen fairly frequently in the names I've looked at. In short, I would expect something like kke yaNmaNj^e, which doesn't ring any bells at all in Ks. Now, I don't know much at all about IOM, lexically or phonologically--maybe this makes even less sense in IOM--but thought I just might throw that out there as food for thought. All the best, -Justin On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Sky Campbell > wrote: The "caro" portion has me thinking of a few possibilities: kera (as you pointed out) giro (happy) The "monga" has me thinking of: mange (lying down) mange (chest) womanke (easy) <-- perhaps unlikely mąnka (medicine) <-- seems the most unlikely but I thought I'd throw it in there Last is a "theory" that I have that perhaps somehow, some way, "monga" might be a form of "manyi/manye". Considering how many examples of "ng" and "ny" being swapped out (sunge/sunye, -inge/-inye, etc.), I wonder if perhaps it might be a version of "manyi". Especially since that word is used in so many names already and your friend noted that it appears in other names as well. This is just speculation, of course. Speaking of which, if they could provide examples of other names that use "monga", it might help us figure it out. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 9:25 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Fw: Carominga Does anyone have some thoughts to decipher the name: "Caromonga." The last part appears to be "mange" (be in sitting position). The first could be "kera" (cleared sky). From: Greg Olson Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 4:48 PM To: Jimm GoodTracks Subject: Carominga Jimm, while proofing my manuscript, I came across an Ioway name I had overlooked. Caromonga. He is mentioned insome council meetings during the 1840s. I notice the end of the name- monga -appears in other names too. 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Stanley Professor of Anthropology Luther College 700 College Drive Decorah, Iowa 52101 563-387-1283 -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 16156 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 6231 bytes Desc: image002.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Extracts from the Journal of the Rev. W. Hamilton - The Foreign Missionary Chronicle, Volume VIII, pages 371-376.pd Type: application/pdf Size: 615702 bytes Desc: Extracts from the Journal of the Rev. W. Hamilton - The Foreign Missionary Chronicle, Volume VIII, pages 371-376.pdf URL: From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Wed Jul 2 16:31:33 2014 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm G. GoodTracks) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2014 11:31:33 -0500 Subject: Analysis of an Ioway name Message-ID: Can anyone figure out the analysis of the Ioway name of a small boy, who with his father, traveled to Europe in the early 1800?s with George Catlin. The name was written as seen below and given the gloss of ?Commanding General.? The word ?wad?nwe? could very well be the first part, but I come up with nothing for the last part of the name. There is: b?kara n. dry (as a river or creek) (LzH), which I do not believe to fit here. Watawebukana, ?Commanding General?, ??yuMa?i (Raining?s son). wad?nwe ~ w?danwe n/adj/v.i. give, pay attention; mindfull(ness), regardful; heed, take heed; aware, be aware; note, take notice; concentration. **SEE: wad?na. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wipamankere at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jul 2 16:56:49 2014 From: wipamankere at HOTMAIL.COM (Iren Hartmann) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2014 11:56:49 -0500 Subject: Analysis of an Ioway name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jimm, the only thing that comes to mind is the Hooca?k word hiruka?na? ?control, be in charge of (v.tr.); boss (n.)? Could they be cognate? ruka?na? on the other hand is ?to woo, or court someone?. Best, Iren Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2014 11:31:33 -0500 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Subject: Analysis of an Ioway name To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Can anyone figure out the analysis of the Ioway name of a small boy, who with his father, traveled to Europe in the early 1800?s with George Catlin. The name was written as seen below and given the gloss of ?Commanding General.? The word ?wad?nwe? could very well be the first part, but I come up with nothing for the last part of the name. There is: b?kara n. dry (as a river or creek) (LzH), which I do not believe to fit here. Watawebukana, ?Commanding General?, ??yuMa?i (Raining?s son). wad?nwe ~ w?danwe n/adj/v.i. give, pay attention; mindfull(ness), regardful; heed, take heed; aware, be aware; note, take notice; concentration. **SEE: wad?na. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG Wed Jul 2 17:03:13 2014 From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2014 12:03:13 -0500 Subject: Analysis of an Ioway name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My friend and I went over these names a week or so ago while working on some others (old Missouria names). My take on this name was that it was a variation of: Wexa Wirugr? But that is assuming the "t" can be swapped out for an "x". I'm not sure why there is a "b" in there (typo perhaps?). At any rate, I thought the same that Irene did...something to do with being the "best ruler" or "best commander". Sky Campbell Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Iren Hartmann Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2014 11:57 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Analysis of an Ioway name Jimm, the only thing that comes to mind is the Hooca?k word hiruka?na? ?control, be in charge of (v.tr.); boss (n.)? Could they be cognate? ruka?na? on the other hand is ?to woo, or court someone?. Best, Iren ________________________________ Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2014 11:31:33 -0500 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Subject: Analysis of an Ioway name To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Can anyone figure out the analysis of the Ioway name of a small boy, who with his father, traveled to Europe in the early 1800?s with George Catlin. The name was written as seen below and given the gloss of ?Commanding General.? The word ?wad?nwe? could very well be the first part, but I come up with nothing for the last part of the name. There is: b?kara n. dry (as a river or creek) (LzH), which I do not believe to fit here. Watawebukana, ?Commanding General?, ??yuMa?i (Raining?s son). wad?nwe ~ w?danwe n/adj/v.i. give, pay attention; mindfull(ness), regardful; heed, take heed; aware, be aware; note, take notice; concentration. **SEE: wad?na. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG Wed Jul 2 17:10:07 2014 From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2014 12:10:07 -0500 Subject: Analysis of an Ioway name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Oh, and I forgot to mention that I based my "wexa" idea on the name above that one in Catlin's book which he has as "Wa-tan-ye" with the French being, "Celui qui est toujours en avant" (one who is always ahead). I immediately thought of the name "Wexa Nay?" (Standing Ahead). Plus the alternate spellings in parentheses helped me put that together. The character "??" gave me the idea that the first syllable in those names needed to be "we". [cid:image001.jpg at 01CF95EE.90291400] Sky Campbell Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Iren Hartmann Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2014 11:57 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Analysis of an Ioway name Jimm, the only thing that comes to mind is the Hooca?k word hiruka?na? ?control, be in charge of (v.tr.); boss (n.)? Could they be cognate? ruka?na? on the other hand is ?to woo, or court someone?. Best, Iren ________________________________ Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2014 11:31:33 -0500 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Subject: Analysis of an Ioway name To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Can anyone figure out the analysis of the Ioway name of a small boy, who with his father, traveled to Europe in the early 1800?s with George Catlin. The name was written as seen below and given the gloss of ?Commanding General.? The word ?wad?nwe? could very well be the first part, but I come up with nothing for the last part of the name. There is: b?kara n. dry (as a river or creek) (LzH), which I do not believe to fit here. Watawebukana, ?Commanding General?, ??yuMa?i (Raining?s son). wad?nwe ~ w?danwe n/adj/v.i. give, pay attention; mindfull(ness), regardful; heed, take heed; aware, be aware; note, take notice; concentration. **SEE: wad?na. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 33207 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Guerriers et Braves.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 102084 bytes Desc: Guerriers et Braves.jpg URL: From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Wed Jul 2 18:23:49 2014 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm G. GoodTracks) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2014 13:23:49 -0500 Subject: Analysis of an Ioway name In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E436C33FD06A39@Server6-EX.omtribe.net> Message-ID: Trying to get ?wexa? out of ?wata....? is a bit of a stretch. But I can see a ?eta? with a ?w-? worked in there: ?ta; ?ta (GM); ?tada adv. beyond; farther away. Dag?ra^unna ?tada ram?nada w??e t^?na ran?xun ?k??i je, Why did you sit farther away where you could not hear the speaker? Then I can see a ?wir?granna? following. From: Campbell, Sky Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2014 12:10 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Analysis of an Ioway name Oh, and I forgot to mention that I based my "wexa" idea on the name above that one in Catlin's book which he has as "Wa-tan-ye" with the French being, "Celui qui est toujours en avant" (one who is always ahead). I immediately thought of the name "Wexa Nay?" (Standing Ahead). Plus the alternate spellings in parentheses helped me put that together. The character "??" gave me the idea that the first syllable in those names needed to be "we". Sky Campbell Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Iren Hartmann Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2014 11:57 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Analysis of an Ioway name Jimm, the only thing that comes to mind is the Hooca?k word hiruka?na? ?control, be in charge of (v.tr.); boss (n.)? Could they be cognate? ruka?na? on the other hand is ?to woo, or court someone?. Best, Iren -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2014 11:31:33 -0500 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Subject: Analysis of an Ioway name To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Can anyone figure out the analysis of the Ioway name of a small boy, who with his father, traveled to Europe in the early 1800?s with George Catlin. The name was written as seen below and given the gloss of ?Commanding General.? The word ?wad?nwe? could very well be the first part, but I come up with nothing for the last part of the name. There is: b?kara n. dry (as a river or creek) (LzH), which I do not believe to fit here. Watawebukana, ?Commanding General?, ??yuMa?i (Raining?s son). wad?nwe ~ w?danwe n/adj/v.i. give, pay attention; mindfull(ness), regardful; heed, take heed; aware, be aware; note, take notice; concentration. **SEE: wad?na. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. ?? -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 33207 bytes Desc: not available URL: From WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU Tue Jul 8 20:34:15 2014 From: WillemDeReuse at MY.UNT.EDU (De Reuse, Willem) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2014 20:34:15 +0000 Subject: 2015 SCLC in Louisiana In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Jean-Luc: Sorry to have missed you at Colang. I could only come for one day. Keep us informed about your interests in the Ofo language. Very best wishes, Willem ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics on behalf of Jean-Luc Pierite Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 10:20 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: 2015 SCLC in Louisiana Hi Willem: I am actually currently at CoLang at UT Arlington until Saturday. I'm more related to Rosa's husband, Ernest. Though, Rosa will play a big part as we open up our effort to Ofo. Look forward to talking more with each of you! On Wednesday, June 25, 2014, De Reuse, Willem > wrote: Dear Jean-Luc: Thanks for introducing yourself. I am based near Dallas, and that is a good day's drive from Marksville, so I definitely want to come to Marksville. Are you by any chance related to Rosa Pierite, the last speaker of Ofo? I am a big fan! Willem de Reuse ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics on behalf of Jean-Luc Pierite Sent: Monday, June 23, 2014 8:04 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: 2015 SCLC in Louisiana Hello all, Just jumping in on the conversation about 2015 SCLC in Louisiana. I should also introduce myself. I am Jean-Luc Pierite, a member of the Tunica-Biloxi Tribe. My family assisted Dave in his revision of the Biloxi Dictionary. My immediate family's involvement in language and culture preservation for the tribe goes back almost 40 years. My mom, Donna M. Pierite, and my sister, Elisabeth Pierite-Mora, both join me in looking forward to helping you all out with anything at all. Thanks, Jean-Luc Pierite http://about.me/jeanluc.pierite -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Thanks, Jean-Luc Pierite http://about.me/jeanluc.pierite -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Fri Jul 11 19:41:13 2014 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2014 19:41:13 +0000 Subject: Photos In-Reply-To: Message-ID: That?s a very nice marker, Kathy, and the inscriptions are perfectly readable in the photos. Thanks for sharing! Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Kathleen Shea Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 2:30 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Photos Hi all, I'm sending some photos of Bob Rankin's grave marker at the Washunga Cemetery in the area of Newkirk, Oklahoma. I was unable to attend the memorial service a couple of weeks ago, but I'm here in Ponca City now and was able to take these photos. It was hard to get the sun on the face of the stone, as it faces southwest, but I did my best in two trips. It's a very impressive stone marker situated under a permanent arbor. I hope you can read the inscriptions, which are in both Kansa and English. I'm using the voice feature on my smart phone (with a little editing), so please excuse any errors. Kathy Shea -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Fri Jul 11 20:13:44 2014 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm G. GoodTracks) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2014 15:13:44 -0500 Subject: Photos In-Reply-To: Message-ID: That was nice, Kathy. Thank You for going to the trouble of sharing these photos with us all. jimm From: Kathleen Shea Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 2:29 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Photos Hi all, I'm sending some photos of Bob Rankin's grave marker at the Washunga Cemetery in the area of Newkirk, Oklahoma. I was unable to attend the memorial service a couple of weeks ago, but I'm here in Ponca City now and was able to take these photos. It was hard to get the sun on the face of the stone, as it faces southwest, but I did my best in two trips. It's a very impressive stone marker situated under a permanent arbor. I hope you can read the inscriptions, which are in both Kansa and English. I'm using the voice feature on my smart phone (with a little editing), so please excuse any errors. Kathy Shea -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kathleendshea at GMAIL.COM Fri Jul 11 19:29:41 2014 From: kathleendshea at GMAIL.COM (Kathleen Shea) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2014 14:29:41 -0500 Subject: Photos In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi all, I'm sending some photos of Bob Rankin's grave marker at the Washunga Cemetery in the area of Newkirk, Oklahoma. I was unable to attend the memorial service a couple of weeks ago, but I'm here in Ponca City now and was able to take these photos. It was hard to get the sun on the face of the stone, as it faces southwest, but I did my best in two trips. It's a very impressive stone marker situated under a permanent arbor. I hope you can read the inscriptions, which are in both Kansa and English. I'm using the voice feature on my smart phone (with a little editing), so please excuse any errors. Kathy Shea -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_20140711_101907629_HDR.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 4158911 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_20140709_124452982_HDR.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 4040764 bytes Desc: not available URL: From shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK Sat Jul 12 14:39:44 2014 From: shokoohbanou at YAHOO.CO.UK (bruce Ingham) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2014 15:39:44 +0100 Subject: Photos In-Reply-To: <97A0C299D0644A0CA383D022A694C897@JGAsusPC> Message-ID: It's nice to see that Bob has a Siouan grave marker. Well sone the people who produced it Bruce On 11 Jul 2014, at 21:13, Jimm G. GoodTracks wrote: > That was nice, Kathy. Thank You for going to the trouble of sharing these photos with us all. jimm > > From: Kathleen Shea > Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 2:29 PM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Photos > > Hi all, > I'm sending some photos of Bob Rankin's grave marker at the Washunga Cemetery in the area of Newkirk, Oklahoma. I was unable to attend the memorial service a couple of weeks ago, but I'm here in Ponca City now and was able to take these photos. It was hard to get the sun on the face of the stone, as it faces southwest, but I did my best in two trips. It's a very impressive stone marker situated under a permanent arbor. I hope you can read the inscriptions, which are in both Kansa and English. I'm using the voice feature on my smart phone (with a little editing), so please excuse any errors. > > Kathy Shea > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mary.marino at USASK.CA Sat Jul 12 17:56:50 2014 From: mary.marino at USASK.CA (Mary C Marino) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2014 11:56:50 -0600 Subject: Photos In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks Kathy; it is very nice to see this. Mary On 11/07/2014 1:29 PM, Kathleen Shea wrote: > > Hi all, > I'm sending some photos of Bob Rankin's grave marker at the Washunga > Cemetery in the area of Newkirk, Oklahoma. I was unable to attend the > memorial service a couple of weeks ago, but I'm here in Ponca City now > and was able to take these photos. It was hard to get the sun on the > face of the stone, as it faces southwest, but I did my best in two > trips. It's a very impressive stone marker situated under a permanent > arbor. I hope you can read the inscriptions, which are in both Kansa > and English. I'm using the voice feature on my smart phone (with a > little editing), so please excuse any errors. > > Kathy Shea > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. > listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, > AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Sun Jul 13 20:14:13 2014 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2014 20:14:13 +0000 Subject: Questions about historical pre-aspiration Message-ID: I have a question for the list about the phenomenon of historical pre-aspiration in Siouan and where evidence for it is found. According to some of the notes I have so far read in the Common Siouan Dictionary (CSD, 2006), proto-Siouan-Catawban did not have a distinction between the simple stops and the Siouan pre-aspirated stops. Siouan apparently developed pre-aspirated stops when the stop preceded an accented syllable. In this case, *p- > *hp-, *t > *ht-, and *k > *hk. In the daughter languages, these pre-aspirated stops might stay pre-aspirated, as in Osage, become tense stops (*pp-, *tt-, *kk-) as in Omaha, Ponca and Kaw, or become post-aspirate (*ph-, *th-, *kh-) as in Dakotan, and apparently Ioway-Otoe-Missouria, Ofo and Biloxi (the latter noted only thanks to David Kaufman?s recent Biloxi Dictionary). However, it is also stated that historical pre-aspiration was simply lost in Crow, Hidatsa and Mandan. Apparently, it went away in these languages without showing a trace that it ever existed. I?m left wondering about Hoo?a?k. In the CSD, IOM historical pre-aspirates seem to be regularly marked with an ?h? after them, making them post-aspirates. But the corresponding words in Hoo?a?k are just as regularly unmarked. Looking in the modern Hoo?a?k dictionary of Johannes and Iren et. al., that seems to be the case there as well. So does Hoo?a?k join Missouri Valley Siouan and Mandan in not showing historical pre-aspiration? And in either case, can we be sure that historical pre-aspiration is really a proto-Siouan phenomenon? Or might it only have affected Southeastern and MVS? Thanks for any thoughts. Rory -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Mon Jul 14 19:06:23 2014 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Greer, Jill) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2014 19:06:23 +0000 Subject: Photos In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks Kathy! What a lovely memorial for our dear colleague and mentor! Wish I could have been at the dedication also. Best, Jill From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 2:41 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Photos That?s a very nice marker, Kathy, and the inscriptions are perfectly readable in the photos. Thanks for sharing! Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Kathleen Shea Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 2:30 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Photos Hi all, I'm sending some photos of Bob Rankin's grave marker at the Washunga Cemetery in the area of Newkirk, Oklahoma. I was unable to attend the memorial service a couple of weeks ago, but I'm here in Ponca City now and was able to take these photos. It was hard to get the sun on the face of the stone, as it faces southwest, but I did my best in two trips. It's a very impressive stone marker situated under a permanent arbor. I hope you can read the inscriptions, which are in both Kansa and English. I'm using the voice feature on my smart phone (with a little editing), so please excuse any errors. Kathy Shea -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM Mon Jul 14 19:57:54 2014 From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2014 14:57:54 -0500 Subject: Photos In-Reply-To: <88b28f4d7de645f4b197450b65f5a25d@BLUPR04MB819.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: I'm not sure if you all knew this, but Bob's ashes are buried under the cement that his memorial stone is standing on. They simply dug a hole under the side of the cement platform and the ashes were inserted. The stone is under an awning, which is why it's difficult to get a clear picture. The memorial service was nice and several of us (including Justin McBride and I) got to speak, but it was storming and raining pretty hard at the time. Luckily the awning covered us. Maybe it was a sign that Bob was watching us celebrate him! Dave David Kaufman, Ph.D. Director, Kaw Nation Language Program On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 2:06 PM, Greer, Jill wrote: > Thanks Kathy! What a lovely memorial for our dear colleague and > mentor! Wish I could have been at the dedication also. > > > > Best, > > Jill > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of > *Rory Larson > *Sent:* Friday, July 11, 2014 2:41 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Re: Photos > > > > That?s a very nice marker, Kathy, and the inscriptions are perfectly > readable in the photos. Thanks for sharing! > > > > Rory > > > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > ] *On Behalf Of *Kathleen Shea > *Sent:* Friday, July 11, 2014 2:30 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU > *Subject:* Photos > > > > Hi all, > I'm sending some photos of Bob Rankin's grave marker at the Washunga > Cemetery in the area of Newkirk, Oklahoma. I was unable to attend the > memorial service a couple of weeks ago, but I'm here in Ponca City now and > was able to take these photos. It was hard to get the sun on the face of > the stone, as it faces southwest, but I did my best in two trips. It's a > very impressive stone marker situated under a permanent arbor. I hope you > can read the inscriptions, which are in both Kansa and English. I'm using > the voice feature on my smart phone (with a little editing), so please > excuse any errors. > > Kathy Shea > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. > > > This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject > to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for > the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended > recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of > the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by > law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please > notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From FurbeeL at MISSOURI.EDU Tue Jul 15 14:31:58 2014 From: FurbeeL at MISSOURI.EDU (Furbee, Louanna (Emeritus)) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2014 14:31:58 +0000 Subject: Photos In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks for sending these, Kathy. Appropriate remembrance for a good friend of the language and to his colleagues. Pax, Louanna N. Louanna Furbee Professor Emerita of Anthropology University of Missouri ________________________________ From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Kathleen Shea [kathleendshea at GMAIL.COM] Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 2:29 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Photos Hi all, I'm sending some photos of Bob Rankin's grave marker at the Washunga Cemetery in the area of Newkirk, Oklahoma. I was unable to attend the memorial service a couple of weeks ago, but I'm here in Ponca City now and was able to take these photos. It was hard to get the sun on the face of the stone, as it faces southwest, but I did my best in two trips. It's a very impressive stone marker situated under a permanent arbor. I hope you can read the inscriptions, which are in both Kansa and English. I'm using the voice feature on my smart phone (with a little editing), so please excuse any errors. Kathy Shea -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kathleendshea at GMAIL.COM Wed Jul 16 03:03:05 2014 From: kathleendshea at GMAIL.COM (Kathleen Shea) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2014 22:03:05 -0500 Subject: Photos In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I appreciate everyone's heartwarming comments. I'm glad you enjoyed the photos and the remembrance of Bob. On Jul 15, 2014 9:36 AM, "Furbee, Louanna (Emeritus)" wrote: > Thanks for sending these, Kathy. Appropriate remembrance for a good > friend of the language and to his colleagues. Pax, Louanna > > N. Louanna Furbee > Professor Emerita of Anthropology > University of Missouri > ------------------------------ > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of > Kathleen Shea [kathleendshea at GMAIL.COM] > *Sent:* Friday, July 11, 2014 2:29 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Photos > > Hi all, > I'm sending some photos of Bob Rankin's grave marker at the Washunga > Cemetery in the area of Newkirk, Oklahoma. I was unable to attend the > memorial service a couple of weeks ago, but I'm here in Ponca City now and > was able to take these photos. It was hard to get the sun on the face of > the stone, as it faces southwest, but I did my best in two trips. It's a > very impressive stone marker situated under a permanent arbor. I hope you > can read the inscriptions, which are in both Kansa and English. I'm using > the voice feature on my smart phone (with a little editing), so please > excuse any errors. > > Kathy Shea > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Fri Jul 18 14:24:45 2014 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm G. GoodTracks) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2014 09:24:45 -0500 Subject: Fw: Carominga Message-ID: Does anyone have some thoughts to decipher the name: "Caromonga." The last part appears to be "mange" (be in sitting position). The first could be "kera" (cleared sky). From: Greg Olson Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 4:48 PM To: Jimm GoodTracks Subject: Carominga Jimm, while proofing my manuscript, I came across an Ioway name I had overlooked. Caromonga. He is mentioned insome council meetings during the 1840s. I notice the end of the name- monga -appears in other names too. Greg -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Fri Jul 18 20:54:06 2014 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM (Sky Campbell) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2014 15:54:06 -0500 Subject: Carominga In-Reply-To: <25E63AF24B30429DA56C14B57424DB0D@JGDellLaptop> Message-ID: The "caro" portion has me thinking of a few possibilities: kera (as you pointed out) giro (happy) The "monga" has me thinking of: mange (lying down) mange (chest) womanke (easy) <-- perhaps unlikely m?nka (medicine) <-- seems the most unlikely but I thought I'd throw it in there Last is a "theory" that I have that perhaps somehow, some way, "monga" might be a form of "manyi/manye". Considering how many examples of "ng" and "ny" being swapped out (sunge/sunye, -inge/-inye, etc.), I wonder if perhaps it might be a version of "manyi". Especially since that word is used in so many names already and your friend noted that it appears in other names as well. This is just speculation, of course. Speaking of which, if they could provide examples of other names that use "monga", it might help us figure it out. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 9:25 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Fw: Carominga Does anyone have some thoughts to decipher the name: "Caromonga." The last part appears to be "mange" (be in sitting position). The first could be "kera" (cleared sky). From: Greg Olson Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 4:48 PM To: Jimm GoodTracks Subject: Carominga Jimm, while proofing my manuscript, I came across an Ioway name I had overlooked. Caromonga. He is mentioned insome council meetings during the 1840s. I notice the end of the name- monga -appears in other names too. Greg -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU Fri Jul 18 22:46:25 2014 From: jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU (Mcbride, Justin) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2014 17:46:25 -0500 Subject: Carominga In-Reply-To: <003201cfa2ca$6a4eb3f0$3eec1bd0$@com> Message-ID: Howdy, Jimm, I wonder about the division of syllables into Caro and Monga. Is it possible that it could be Ca Romonga? I ask becasue, if it were a Kaw name, I'd think it might have something to do with kke, 'turtle,' which I'm pretty sure I've seen spelled as Ca in names before. I would also look at the r as representing either Ks y or l, and -ga part at the end (if it's not been switched, as Sky suggests, which I think is probable) as possibly representing like the Ks syllable j^e, which seems to happen fairly frequently in the names I've looked at. In short, I would expect something like kke yaNmaNj^e, which doesn't ring any bells at all in Ks. Now, I don't know much at all about IOM, lexically or phonologically--maybe this makes even less sense in IOM--but thought I just might throw that out there as food for thought. All the best, -Justin On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Sky Campbell wrote: > The "caro" portion has me thinking of a few possibilities: > > > > kera (as you pointed out) > > giro (happy) > > > > The "monga" has me thinking of: > > > > mange (lying down) > > mange (chest) > > womanke (easy) <-- perhaps unlikely > > m?nka (medicine) <-- seems the most unlikely but I thought I'd throw it in > there > > > > Last is a "theory" that I have that perhaps somehow, some way, "monga" > might be a form of "manyi/manye". Considering how many examples of "ng" > and "ny" being swapped out (sunge/sunye, -inge/-inye, etc.), I wonder if > perhaps it might be a version of "manyi". Especially since that word is > used in so many names already and your friend noted that it appears in > other names as well. This is just speculation, of course. Speaking of > which, if they could provide examples of other names that use "monga", it > might help us figure it out. > > > > Sky > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of > *Jimm G. GoodTracks > *Sent:* Friday, July 18, 2014 9:25 AM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Fw: Carominga > > > > Does anyone have some thoughts to decipher the name: "Caromonga." The > last part appears to be "mange" (be in sitting position). The first could > be "kera" (cleared sky). > > > > > > *From:* Greg Olson > > *Sent:* Friday, July 11, 2014 4:48 PM > > *To:* Jimm GoodTracks > > *Subject:* Carominga > > > > Jimm, while proofing my manuscript, I came across an Ioway name I had > overlooked. Caromonga. He is mentioned insome council meetings during the > 1840s. I notice the end of the name- monga -appears in other names too. > > > > Greg > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Kathleen.Danker at SDSTATE.EDU Fri Jul 18 23:16:11 2014 From: Kathleen.Danker at SDSTATE.EDU (Danker, Kathleen) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2014 23:16:11 +0000 Subject: Photos In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Kathy, Thank you for sending the photos. It?s really nice monument. K.D. From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Kathleen Shea Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 2:30 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Photos Hi all, I'm sending some photos of Bob Rankin's grave marker at the Washunga Cemetery in the area of Newkirk, Oklahoma. I was unable to attend the memorial service a couple of weeks ago, but I'm here in Ponca City now and was able to take these photos. It was hard to get the sun on the face of the stone, as it faces southwest, but I did my best in two trips. It's a very impressive stone marker situated under a permanent arbor. I hope you can read the inscriptions, which are in both Kansa and English. I'm using the voice feature on my smart phone (with a little editing), so please excuse any errors. Kathy Shea -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Sat Jul 19 00:34:04 2014 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM (Sky Campbell) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2014 19:34:04 -0500 Subject: Carominga In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Justin, I thought of that too (and even thought of turtle LOL...ke for ket?) but nothing came to mind for the rest. We have a precedent for this which is a name listed as "Ke Gre?e" (Prairie Turtle/Spotted Turtle). I seem to remember one or two more but can't think of them off the top of my head. And thanks for pointing out the "g" possibly being the "j" sound. That is usually one of the first things I consider but it totally slipped my mind. Man, I really, REALLY need to finish my "character/morpheme swap" program for situations like this. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mcbride, Justin Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 5:46 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Carominga Howdy, Jimm, I wonder about the division of syllables into Caro and Monga. Is it possible that it could be Ca Romonga? I ask becasue, if it were a Kaw name, I'd think it might have something to do with kke, 'turtle,' which I'm pretty sure I've seen spelled as Ca in names before. I would also look at the r as representing either Ks y or l, and -ga part at the end (if it's not been switched, as Sky suggests, which I think is probable) as possibly representing like the Ks syllable j^e, which seems to happen fairly frequently in the names I've looked at. In short, I would expect something like kke yaNmaNj^e, which doesn't ring any bells at all in Ks. Now, I don't know much at all about IOM, lexically or phonologically--maybe this makes even less sense in IOM--but thought I just might throw that out there as food for thought. All the best, -Justin On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Sky Campbell wrote: The "caro" portion has me thinking of a few possibilities: kera (as you pointed out) giro (happy) The "monga" has me thinking of: mange (lying down) mange (chest) womanke (easy) <-- perhaps unlikely m?nka (medicine) <-- seems the most unlikely but I thought I'd throw it in there Last is a "theory" that I have that perhaps somehow, some way, "monga" might be a form of "manyi/manye". Considering how many examples of "ng" and "ny" being swapped out (sunge/sunye, -inge/-inye, etc.), I wonder if perhaps it might be a version of "manyi". Especially since that word is used in so many names already and your friend noted that it appears in other names as well. This is just speculation, of course. Speaking of which, if they could provide examples of other names that use "monga", it might help us figure it out. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 9:25 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Fw: Carominga Does anyone have some thoughts to decipher the name: "Caromonga." The last part appears to be "mange" (be in sitting position). The first could be "kera" (cleared sky). From: Greg Olson Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 4:48 PM To: Jimm GoodTracks Subject: Carominga Jimm, while proofing my manuscript, I came across an Ioway name I had overlooked. Caromonga. He is mentioned insome council meetings during the 1840s. I notice the end of the name- monga -appears in other names too. Greg -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU Sat Jul 19 01:17:04 2014 From: jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU (Mcbride, Justin) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2014 20:17:04 -0500 Subject: Carominga In-Reply-To: <002101cfa2e9$2539fa30$6fadee90$@com> Message-ID: When you showed me that program last year, Sky, I remember thinking, "Now, THIS is awesome!" As a guy who, for years, was asked questions like, "What's my Granddad's name mean?" on a weekly basis, only to be handed a string of indecipherable 'ah's, 'eh's, and hyphens with a few consonants mixed in for good measure, I would have relished the opportunity to see a list the possible permutations presented at once. Now, if you could just build in some phonotactic constraint logic and SQL interaction with some sort of lexical database to provide suggestions--you know, the easy stuff--you'd have the proverbial better mousetrap! :) Ah, it's fun to dream! By the way, the name Kke Leze was the name of one of the last living male L1 Ks speakers. -jtm On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 7:34 PM, Sky Campbell wrote: > Justin, > > > > I thought of that too (and even thought of turtle LOL...ke for ket?) but > nothing came to mind for the rest. We have a precedent for this which is a > name listed as "Ke Gre?e" (Prairie Turtle/Spotted Turtle). I seem to > remember one or two more but can't think of them off the top of my head. > > > > And thanks for pointing out the "g" possibly being the "j" sound. That is > usually one of the first things I consider but it totally slipped my mind. > Man, I really, REALLY need to finish my "character/morpheme swap" program > for situations like this. > > > > Sky > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of > *Mcbride, Justin > *Sent:* Friday, July 18, 2014 5:46 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Re: Carominga > > > > Howdy, Jimm, > > > > I wonder about the division of syllables into Caro and Monga. Is it > possible that it could be Ca Romonga? I ask becasue, if it were a Kaw name, > I'd think it might have something to do with kke, 'turtle,' which I'm > pretty sure I've seen spelled as Ca in names before. I would also look at > the r as representing either Ks y or l, and -ga part at the end (if it's > not been switched, as Sky suggests, which I think is probable) as possibly > representing like the Ks syllable j^e, which seems to happen fairly > frequently in the names I've looked at. In short, I would expect something > like kke yaNmaNj^e, which doesn't ring any bells at all in Ks. Now, I don't > know much at all about IOM, lexically or phonologically--maybe this makes > even less sense in IOM--but thought I just might throw that out there as > food for thought. > > > > All the best, > > -Justin > > > > On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Sky Campbell > wrote: > > The "caro" portion has me thinking of a few possibilities: > > > > kera (as you pointed out) > > giro (happy) > > > > The "monga" has me thinking of: > > > > mange (lying down) > > mange (chest) > > womanke (easy) <-- perhaps unlikely > > m?nka (medicine) <-- seems the most unlikely but I thought I'd throw it in > there > > > > Last is a "theory" that I have that perhaps somehow, some way, "monga" > might be a form of "manyi/manye". Considering how many examples of "ng" > and "ny" being swapped out (sunge/sunye, -inge/-inye, etc.), I wonder if > perhaps it might be a version of "manyi". Especially since that word is > used in so many names already and your friend noted that it appears in > other names as well. This is just speculation, of course. Speaking of > which, if they could provide examples of other names that use "monga", it > might help us figure it out. > > > > Sky > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of > *Jimm G. GoodTracks > *Sent:* Friday, July 18, 2014 9:25 AM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Fw: Carominga > > > > Does anyone have some thoughts to decipher the name: "Caromonga." The > last part appears to be "mange" (be in sitting position). The first could > be "kera" (cleared sky). > > > > > > *From:* Greg Olson > > *Sent:* Friday, July 11, 2014 4:48 PM > > *To:* Jimm GoodTracks > > *Subject:* Carominga > > > > Jimm, while proofing my manuscript, I came across an Ioway name I had > overlooked. Caromonga. He is mentioned insome council meetings during the > 1840s. I notice the end of the name- monga -appears in other names too. > > > > Greg > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. > > > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Sat Jul 19 02:02:49 2014 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM (Sky Campbell) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2014 21:02:49 -0500 Subject: Carominga In-Reply-To: Message-ID: That is actually the eventual goal. I'm still getting my head wrapped around things like "phonotactic constraint logic" and the like but I've been working with FLEx a LOT over the past year and while I don't have as much as I'd like entered in there, I'm coming up on 4000 entries (and I still have a loooooong ways to go). I hope to either tie directly into the FLEx database somehow (will have to work with the developers for that sort of thing) and if that doesn't work, I figure to at least be able to parse something like the XML files that FLEx can export. Then I'll be able to do as you suggest and take all the permutations and look for matches :). Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mcbride, Justin Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 8:17 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Carominga When you showed me that program last year, Sky, I remember thinking, "Now, THIS is awesome!" As a guy who, for years, was asked questions like, "What's my Granddad's name mean?" on a weekly basis, only to be handed a string of indecipherable 'ah's, 'eh's, and hyphens with a few consonants mixed in for good measure, I would have relished the opportunity to see a list the possible permutations presented at once. Now, if you could just build in some phonotactic constraint logic and SQL interaction with some sort of lexical database to provide suggestions--you know, the easy stuff--you'd have the proverbial better mousetrap! :) Ah, it's fun to dream! By the way, the name Kke Leze was the name of one of the last living male L1 Ks speakers. -jtm On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 7:34 PM, Sky Campbell wrote: Justin, I thought of that too (and even thought of turtle LOL...ke for ket?) but nothing came to mind for the rest. We have a precedent for this which is a name listed as "Ke Gre?e" (Prairie Turtle/Spotted Turtle). I seem to remember one or two more but can't think of them off the top of my head. And thanks for pointing out the "g" possibly being the "j" sound. That is usually one of the first things I consider but it totally slipped my mind. Man, I really, REALLY need to finish my "character/morpheme swap" program for situations like this. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mcbride, Justin Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 5:46 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Carominga Howdy, Jimm, I wonder about the division of syllables into Caro and Monga. Is it possible that it could be Ca Romonga? I ask becasue, if it were a Kaw name, I'd think it might have something to do with kke, 'turtle,' which I'm pretty sure I've seen spelled as Ca in names before. I would also look at the r as representing either Ks y or l, and -ga part at the end (if it's not been switched, as Sky suggests, which I think is probable) as possibly representing like the Ks syllable j^e, which seems to happen fairly frequently in the names I've looked at. In short, I would expect something like kke yaNmaNj^e, which doesn't ring any bells at all in Ks. Now, I don't know much at all about IOM, lexically or phonologically--maybe this makes even less sense in IOM--but thought I just might throw that out there as food for thought. All the best, -Justin On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Sky Campbell wrote: The "caro" portion has me thinking of a few possibilities: kera (as you pointed out) giro (happy) The "monga" has me thinking of: mange (lying down) mange (chest) womanke (easy) <-- perhaps unlikely m?nka (medicine) <-- seems the most unlikely but I thought I'd throw it in there Last is a "theory" that I have that perhaps somehow, some way, "monga" might be a form of "manyi/manye". Considering how many examples of "ng" and "ny" being swapped out (sunge/sunye, -inge/-inye, etc.), I wonder if perhaps it might be a version of "manyi". Especially since that word is used in so many names already and your friend noted that it appears in other names as well. This is just speculation, of course. Speaking of which, if they could provide examples of other names that use "monga", it might help us figure it out. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 9:25 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Fw: Carominga Does anyone have some thoughts to decipher the name: "Caromonga." The last part appears to be "mange" (be in sitting position). The first could be "kera" (cleared sky). From: Greg Olson Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 4:48 PM To: Jimm GoodTracks Subject: Carominga Jimm, while proofing my manuscript, I came across an Ioway name I had overlooked. Caromonga. He is mentioned insome council meetings during the 1840s. I notice the end of the name- monga -appears in other names too. Greg -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Greer-J at MSSU.EDU Sat Jul 19 23:22:55 2014 From: Greer-J at MSSU.EDU (Greer, Jill) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2014 23:22:55 +0000 Subject: Carominga In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Justin and Sky - You guys with your programming talents- impressive! Just one question for Jimm and Greg - if the original person who transcribed the name was French (or a mixed blood literate in French- as was common around St. Joseph), the first syllabie "Ca" could even be /Sa/ or /se/ rather than Key, n'est pas? I hate to muddy the waters, but all it takes is one person to miss the cedilla and we've switched the sound totally. These old names are so slippery, but fascinating! Best, Jill On Jul 18, 2014, at 8:17 PM, "Mcbride, Justin" > wrote: When you showed me that program last year, Sky, I remember thinking, "Now, THIS is awesome!" As a guy who, for years, was asked questions like, "What's my Granddad's name mean?" on a weekly basis, only to be handed a string of indecipherable 'ah's, 'eh's, and hyphens with a few consonants mixed in for good measure, I would have relished the opportunity to see a list the possible permutations presented at once. Now, if you could just build in some phonotactic constraint logic and SQL interaction with some sort of lexical database to provide suggestions--you know, the easy stuff--you'd have the proverbial better mousetrap! :) Ah, it's fun to dream! By the way, the name Kke Leze was the name of one of the last living male L1 Ks speakers. -jtm On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 7:34 PM, Sky Campbell > wrote: Justin, I thought of that too (and even thought of turtle LOL...ke for ket?) but nothing came to mind for the rest. We have a precedent for this which is a name listed as "Ke Gre?e" (Prairie Turtle/Spotted Turtle). I seem to remember one or two more but can't think of them off the top of my head. And thanks for pointing out the "g" possibly being the "j" sound. That is usually one of the first things I consider but it totally slipped my mind. Man, I really, REALLY need to finish my "character/morpheme swap" program for situations like this. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mcbride, Justin Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 5:46 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Carominga Howdy, Jimm, I wonder about the division of syllables into Caro and Monga. Is it possible that it could be Ca Romonga? I ask becasue, if it were a Kaw name, I'd think it might have something to do with kke, 'turtle,' which I'm pretty sure I've seen spelled as Ca in names before. I would also look at the r as representing either Ks y or l, and -ga part at the end (if it's not been switched, as Sky suggests, which I think is probable) as possibly representing like the Ks syllable j^e, which seems to happen fairly frequently in the names I've looked at. In short, I would expect something like kke yaNmaNj^e, which doesn't ring any bells at all in Ks. Now, I don't know much at all about IOM, lexically or phonologically--maybe this makes even less sense in IOM--but thought I just might throw that out there as food for thought. All the best, -Justin On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Sky Campbell > wrote: The "caro" portion has me thinking of a few possibilities: kera (as you pointed out) giro (happy) The "monga" has me thinking of: mange (lying down) mange (chest) womanke (easy) <-- perhaps unlikely m?nka (medicine) <-- seems the most unlikely but I thought I'd throw it in there Last is a "theory" that I have that perhaps somehow, some way, "monga" might be a form of "manyi/manye". Considering how many examples of "ng" and "ny" being swapped out (sunge/sunye, -inge/-inye, etc.), I wonder if perhaps it might be a version of "manyi". Especially since that word is used in so many names already and your friend noted that it appears in other names as well. This is just speculation, of course. Speaking of which, if they could provide examples of other names that use "monga", it might help us figure it out. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 9:25 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Fw: Carominga Does anyone have some thoughts to decipher the name: "Caromonga." The last part appears to be "mange" (be in sitting position). The first could be "kera" (cleared sky). From: Greg Olson Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 4:48 PM To: Jimm GoodTracks Subject: Carominga Jimm, while proofing my manuscript, I came across an Ioway name I had overlooked. Caromonga. He is mentioned insome council meetings during the 1840s. I notice the end of the name- monga -appears in other names too. Greg -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Wed Jul 23 02:34:40 2014 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm G. GoodTracks) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 21:34:40 -0500 Subject: Carominga In-Reply-To: <710AA969-4EC2-465F-A2B2-BAD56532A524@mssu.edu> Message-ID: Well, going on what Jill says, the closet thing I can find is: ?ed?na?e; ?ed?na?a adv/prn. that distant curvilinear object yonder; that distant land in sight. However, I'm not comfortable that it is a good fit for "Carominga." I don't know if the original notation was from a French or English document, and as such, cannot know to consider the phonetic value of the "C." But going with the possibility of it being "K?" as in "K?tan" (turtle), we have: k?tan; ket?nha; keton^a (SKN); qetan (DOR) n. turtle. k?tan x?ha n. turtle shell. K?tan w??i p? a???e ke, It is said that turtle meat is good. k?gr?dhei?e; k?gr?dhei?e spotted (or) sand turtle kehtonha (SKN) snapping turtle; snapper k?marax^?n; kem?rax^in (LWR) snapping turtle k? m?rax^in ?wrinkled turtle? mud turtle ket?nna (LWR) snapping turtle; snapper But you see, the best contender is for: k?ra adj. clear (sky). Clear Day; Clear Sky Appears (a personal Buffalo Clan name) n. K?ra T?n^in; K^?ra T?n^in. **SEE: gith?je; clear. Also, thinking about the breakup of syllables as Justin suggest, there could be a connect with: rominj? n. island. Rominj?^i?e(mi); Rom?nchi?e; Ir?mi?h?ji; J?rominje; Romijii?emi (DOR); r?mits? (MAX) (a personal Buffalo Clan and Beaver Clan name) Little Island. Romihingu ~ Romihi?u (SKN); Romijii?emi (DOR) (a personal Pigeon Clan name) Island. And there was maybe the "g" is really a "j" which gives only one unlikely possibility: m?nje (?)(LWR); masj? adj/v.i. hot, warm (weather). With the above, one could squeeze out a "Turtle Island," but, this possibility is not convincing to me. SO THEN, in appreciation to everyone's input, I have arrived full circle to my original conjecture that the name that most likely fits the documented transcription is: K?raM?nge (Clearing Day All About~ Prevailing). In this case, the "m?nge" (sitting) is used in the sense of a positional verb, saying that the clearing of the sky, was extensive over a wide area such might be view on the breathe of the open plains. Further, such a rendering would be consistant to similar clan names. I suggest one possibilty for Grey in working with his narrative is to include with the composed name, the original transcription, such as, "K?raM?nge (Clearing Day All About) [Carminga (Document Source citations)]. Unless, new evidence appears, or further information, this is the best that can be made of that name. H?nhe Pi, Good Night, Buenas Noches! From: Greer, Jill Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2014 6:22 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Carominga Justin and Sky - You guys with your programming talents- impressive! Just one question for Jimm and Greg - if the original person who transcribed the name was French (or a mixed blood literate in French- as was common around St. Joseph), the first syllabie "Ca" could even be /Sa/ or /se/ rather than Key, n'est pas? I hate to muddy the waters, but all it takes is one person to miss the cedilla and we've switched the sound totally. These old names are so slippery, but fascinating! Best, Jill On Jul 18, 2014, at 8:17 PM, "Mcbride, Justin" wrote: When you showed me that program last year, Sky, I remember thinking, "Now, THIS is awesome!" As a guy who, for years, was asked questions like, "What's my Granddad's name mean?" on a weekly basis, only to be handed a string of indecipherable 'ah's, 'eh's, and hyphens with a few consonants mixed in for good measure, I would have relished the opportunity to see a list the possible permutations presented at once. Now, if you could just build in some phonotactic constraint logic and SQL interaction with some sort of lexical database to provide suggestions--you know, the easy stuff--you'd have the proverbial better mousetrap! :) Ah, it's fun to dream! By the way, the name Kke Leze was the name of one of the last living male L1 Ks speakers. -jtm On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 7:34 PM, Sky Campbell wrote: Justin, I thought of that too (and even thought of turtle LOL...ke for ket?) but nothing came to mind for the rest. We have a precedent for this which is a name listed as "Ke Gre?e" (Prairie Turtle/Spotted Turtle). I seem to remember one or two more but can't think of them off the top of my head. And thanks for pointing out the "g" possibly being the "j" sound. That is usually one of the first things I consider but it totally slipped my mind. Man, I really, REALLY need to finish my "character/morpheme swap" program for situations like this. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mcbride, Justin Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 5:46 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Carominga Howdy, Jimm, I wonder about the division of syllables into Caro and Monga. Is it possible that it could be Ca Romonga? I ask becasue, if it were a Kaw name, I'd think it might have something to do with kke, 'turtle,' which I'm pretty sure I've seen spelled as Ca in names before. I would also look at the r as representing either Ks y or l, and -ga part at the end (if it's not been switched, as Sky suggests, which I think is probable) as possibly representing like the Ks syllable j^e, which seems to happen fairly frequently in the names I've looked at. In short, I would expect something like kke yaNmaNj^e, which doesn't ring any bells at all in Ks. Now, I don't know much at all about IOM, lexically or phonologically--maybe this makes even less sense in IOM--but thought I just might throw that out there as food for thought. All the best, -Justin On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Sky Campbell wrote: The "caro" portion has me thinking of a few possibilities: kera (as you pointed out) giro (happy) The "monga" has me thinking of: mange (lying down) mange (chest) womanke (easy) <-- perhaps unlikely m?nka (medicine) <-- seems the most unlikely but I thought I'd throw it in there Last is a "theory" that I have that perhaps somehow, some way, "monga" might be a form of "manyi/manye". Considering how many examples of "ng" and "ny" being swapped out (sunge/sunye, -inge/-inye, etc.), I wonder if perhaps it might be a version of "manyi". Especially since that word is used in so many names already and your friend noted that it appears in other names as well. This is just speculation, of course. Speaking of which, if they could provide examples of other names that use "monga", it might help us figure it out. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 9:25 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Fw: Carominga Does anyone have some thoughts to decipher the name: "Caromonga." The last part appears to be "mange" (be in sitting position). The first could be "kera" (cleared sky). From: Greg Olson Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 4:48 PM To: Jimm GoodTracks Subject: Carominga Jimm, while proofing my manuscript, I came across an Ioway name I had overlooked. Caromonga. He is mentioned insome council meetings during the 1840s. I notice the end of the name- monga -appears in other names too. Greg -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. 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URL: From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG Wed Jul 23 14:27:46 2014 From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 09:27:46 -0500 Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Greg was gracious enough to let me see the copies he was drawing from and sure enough, it looks like "monga" in the name. But what I found interesting in that document was other familiar names...Washkamonga and Neumonga which we've seen elsewhere with the "monga" portion spelled with an "ny" instead of an "ng". I also looked at the 1842 Ioway census and found "Caromonga" but instead it was spelled "Caramonya". I did a quick Google search for "Caramonya" and got a couple hits on some books that had excerpts from Hamilton's journal. He describes "Caramonya" as "an old Indian who often visits us." Unfortunately he doesn't translate the name. My first reaction was to think that perhaps Hamilton might be using his own orthography that he used in his books but the rest of the spelling doesn't bear that out. I'd love to see more of Hamilton's journal to see if there are any clues in there. Anyone know where I could get a hold of such a thing? So it looks like that ending may actually be "manyi" (but perhaps not for the "ng/ny swap" that I suggested but maybe just a handwriting issue). And it looks like both versions were written by the same person (there is the same flourish on the capital "C" in both versions of the name). Council meeting image: [cid:image005.jpg at 01CFA658.5CE491D0] Ioway census image: [cid:image006.jpg at 01CFA658.5CE491D0] So if it is "Cara-" instead of "Caro-", then that can open up more possibilities perhaps. But I'm still only coming up with ket?, kera and giro as my top suggestions for now. Sky Campbell Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2014 9:35 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga Importance: Low Well, going on what Jill says, the closet thing I can find is: ?ed?na?e; ?ed?na?a adv/prn. that distant curvilinear object yonder; that distant land in sight. However, I'm not comfortable that it is a good fit for "Carominga." I don't know if the original notation was from a French or English document, and as such, cannot know to consider the phonetic value of the "C." But going with the possibility of it being "K?" as in "K?tan" (turtle), we have: k?tan; ket?nha; keton^a (SKN); qetan (DOR) n. turtle. k?tan x?ha n. turtle shell. K?tan w??i p? a???e ke, It is said that turtle meat is good. k?gr?dhei?e; k?gr?dhei?e spotted (or) sand turtle kehtonha (SKN) snapping turtle; snapper k?marax^?n; kem?rax^in (LWR) snapping turtle k? m?rax^in ?wrinkled turtle? mud turtle ket?nna (LWR) snapping turtle; snapper But you see, the best contender is for: k?ra adj. clear (sky). Clear Day; Clear Sky Appears (a personal Buffalo Clan name) n. K?ra T?n^in; K^?ra T?n^in. **SEE: gith?je; clear. Also, thinking about the breakup of syllables as Justin suggest, there could be a connect with: rominj? n. island. Rominj?^i?e(mi); Rom?nchi?e; Ir?mi?h?ji; J?rominje; Romijii?emi (DOR); r?mits? (MAX) (a personal Buffalo Clan and Beaver Clan name) Little Island. Romihingu ~ Romihi?u (SKN); Romijii?emi (DOR) (a personal Pigeon Clan name) Island. And there was maybe the "g" is really a "j" which gives only one unlikely possibility: m?nje (?)(LWR); masj? adj/v.i. hot, warm (weather). With the above, one could squeeze out a "Turtle Island," but, this possibility is not convincing to me. SO THEN, in appreciation to everyone's input, I have arrived full circle to my original conjecture that the name that most likely fits the documented transcription is: K?raM?nge (Clearing Day All About~ Prevailing). In this case, the "m?nge" (sitting) is used in the sense of a positional verb, saying that the clearing of the sky, was extensive over a wide area such might be view on the breathe of the open plains. Further, such a rendering would be consistant to similar clan names. I suggest one possibilty for Grey in working with his narrative is to include with the composed name, the original transcription, such as, "K?raM?nge (Clearing Day All About) [Carminga (Document Source citations)]. Unless, new evidence appears, or further information, this is the best that can be made of that name. H?nhe Pi, Good Night, Buenas Noches! From: Greer, Jill Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2014 6:22 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Carominga Justin and Sky - You guys with your programming talents- impressive! Just one question for Jimm and Greg - if the original person who transcribed the name was French (or a mixed blood literate in French- as was common around St. Joseph), the first syllabie "Ca" could even be /Sa/ or /se/ rather than Key, n'est pas? I hate to muddy the waters, but all it takes is one person to miss the cedilla and we've switched the sound totally. These old names are so slippery, but fascinating! Best, Jill On Jul 18, 2014, at 8:17 PM, "Mcbride, Justin" > wrote: When you showed me that program last year, Sky, I remember thinking, "Now, THIS is awesome!" As a guy who, for years, was asked questions like, "What's my Granddad's name mean?" on a weekly basis, only to be handed a string of indecipherable 'ah's, 'eh's, and hyphens with a few consonants mixed in for good measure, I would have relished the opportunity to see a list the possible permutations presented at once. Now, if you could just build in some phonotactic constraint logic and SQL interaction with some sort of lexical database to provide suggestions--you know, the easy stuff--you'd have the proverbial better mousetrap! :) Ah, it's fun to dream! By the way, the name Kke Leze was the name of one of the last living male L1 Ks speakers. -jtm On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 7:34 PM, Sky Campbell > wrote: Justin, I thought of that too (and even thought of turtle LOL...ke for ket?) but nothing came to mind for the rest. We have a precedent for this which is a name listed as "Ke Gre?e" (Prairie Turtle/Spotted Turtle). I seem to remember one or two more but can't think of them off the top of my head. And thanks for pointing out the "g" possibly being the "j" sound. That is usually one of the first things I consider but it totally slipped my mind. Man, I really, REALLY need to finish my "character/morpheme swap" program for situations like this. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mcbride, Justin Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 5:46 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Carominga Howdy, Jimm, I wonder about the division of syllables into Caro and Monga. Is it possible that it could be Ca Romonga? I ask becasue, if it were a Kaw name, I'd think it might have something to do with kke, 'turtle,' which I'm pretty sure I've seen spelled as Ca in names before. I would also look at the r as representing either Ks y or l, and -ga part at the end (if it's not been switched, as Sky suggests, which I think is probable) as possibly representing like the Ks syllable j^e, which seems to happen fairly frequently in the names I've looked at. In short, I would expect something like kke yaNmaNj^e, which doesn't ring any bells at all in Ks. Now, I don't know much at all about IOM, lexically or phonologically--maybe this makes even less sense in IOM--but thought I just might throw that out there as food for thought. All the best, -Justin On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Sky Campbell > wrote: The "caro" portion has me thinking of a few possibilities: kera (as you pointed out) giro (happy) The "monga" has me thinking of: mange (lying down) mange (chest) womanke (easy) <-- perhaps unlikely m?nka (medicine) <-- seems the most unlikely but I thought I'd throw it in there Last is a "theory" that I have that perhaps somehow, some way, "monga" might be a form of "manyi/manye". Considering how many examples of "ng" and "ny" being swapped out (sunge/sunye, -inge/-inye, etc.), I wonder if perhaps it might be a version of "manyi". Especially since that word is used in so many names already and your friend noted that it appears in other names as well. This is just speculation, of course. Speaking of which, if they could provide examples of other names that use "monga", it might help us figure it out. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 9:25 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Fw: Carominga Does anyone have some thoughts to decipher the name: "Caromonga." The last part appears to be "mange" (be in sitting position). The first could be "kera" (cleared sky). From: Greg Olson Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 4:48 PM To: Jimm GoodTracks Subject: Carominga Jimm, while proofing my manuscript, I came across an Ioway name I had overlooked. Caromonga. He is mentioned insome council meetings during the 1840s. I notice the end of the name- monga -appears in other names too. Greg -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. 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If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image005.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 16156 bytes Desc: image005.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image006.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 6231 bytes Desc: image006.jpg URL: From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Wed Jul 23 16:51:34 2014 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm G. GoodTracks) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 11:51:34 -0500 Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E436C33FE5D338@Server6-EX.omtribe.net> Message-ID: Based upon your finding below, one can make a case for "m??i" perhaps even "m?na." And that even being so, the term/ name "K?raM??i" (Clearing), is little changed in meaning from the sense of "K?raM?nge." Being that Hamilton was of a European background, where names of individual were accepted as it, with no thought of a context or translation of a name, it is not a surprise that Hamilton provided no translation. It would have been of interest if he would have at least provided some personal data as to his person, character, personality, community role other than he was "an old Indian who often visits us." If you find a Hamiltons's Journal, it would be an interesting read, just as was Irving's. From: Campbell, Sky Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2014 9:27 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga Greg was gracious enough to let me see the copies he was drawing from and sure enough, it looks like "monga" in the name. But what I found interesting in that document was other familiar names...Washkamonga and Neumonga which we've seen elsewhere with the "monga" portion spelled with an "ny" instead of an "ng". I also looked at the 1842 Ioway census and found "Caromonga" but instead it was spelled "Caramonya". I did a quick Google search for "Caramonya" and got a couple hits on some books that had excerpts from Hamilton's journal. He describes "Caramonya" as "an old Indian who often visits us." Unfortunately he doesn't translate the name. My first reaction was to think that perhaps Hamilton might be using his own orthography that he used in his books but the rest of the spelling doesn't bear that out. I'd love to see more of Hamilton's journal to see if there are any clues in there. Anyone know where I could get a hold of such a thing? So it looks like that ending may actually be "manyi" (but perhaps not for the "ng/ny swap" that I suggested but maybe just a handwriting issue). And it looks like both versions were written by the same person (there is the same flourish on the capital "C" in both versions of the name). Council meeting image: Ioway census image: So if it is "Cara-" instead of "Caro-", then that can open up more possibilities perhaps. But I'm still only coming up with ket?, kera and giro as my top suggestions for now. Sky Campbell Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2014 9:35 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga Importance: Low Well, going on what Jill says, the closet thing I can find is: ?ed?na?e; ?ed?na?a adv/prn. that distant curvilinear object yonder; that distant land in sight. However, I'm not comfortable that it is a good fit for "Carominga." I don't know if the original notation was from a French or English document, and as such, cannot know to consider the phonetic value of the "C." But going with the possibility of it being "K?" as in "K?tan" (turtle), we have: k?tan; ket?nha; keton^a (SKN); qetan (DOR) n. turtle. k?tan x?ha n. turtle shell. K?tan w??i p? a???e ke, It is said that turtle meat is good. k?gr?dhei?e; k?gr?dhei?e spotted (or) sand turtle kehtonha (SKN) snapping turtle; snapper k?marax^?n; kem?rax^in (LWR) snapping turtle k? m?rax^in ?wrinkled turtle? mud turtle ket?nna (LWR) snapping turtle; snapper But you see, the best contender is for: k?ra adj. clear (sky). Clear Day; Clear Sky Appears (a personal Buffalo Clan name) n. K?ra T?n^in; K^?ra T?n^in. **SEE: gith?je; clear. Also, thinking about the breakup of syllables as Justin suggest, there could be a connect with: rominj? n. island. Rominj?^i?e(mi); Rom?nchi?e; Ir?mi?h?ji; J?rominje; Romijii?emi (DOR); r?mits? (MAX) (a personal Buffalo Clan and Beaver Clan name) Little Island. Romihingu ~ Romihi?u (SKN); Romijii?emi (DOR) (a personal Pigeon Clan name) Island. And there was maybe the "g" is really a "j" which gives only one unlikely possibility: m?nje (?)(LWR); masj? adj/v.i. hot, warm (weather). With the above, one could squeeze out a "Turtle Island," but, this possibility is not convincing to me. SO THEN, in appreciation to everyone's input, I have arrived full circle to my original conjecture that the name that most likely fits the documented transcription is: K?raM?nge (Clearing Day All About~ Prevailing). In this case, the "m?nge" (sitting) is used in the sense of a positional verb, saying that the clearing of the sky, was extensive over a wide area such might be view on the breathe of the open plains. Further, such a rendering would be consistant to similar clan names. I suggest one possibilty for Grey in working with his narrative is to include with the composed name, the original transcription, such as, "K?raM?nge (Clearing Day All About) [Carminga (Document Source citations)]. Unless, new evidence appears, or further information, this is the best that can be made of that name. H?nhe Pi, Good Night, Buenas Noches! From: Greer, Jill Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2014 6:22 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Carominga Justin and Sky - You guys with your programming talents- impressive! Just one question for Jimm and Greg - if the original person who transcribed the name was French (or a mixed blood literate in French- as was common around St. Joseph), the first syllabie "Ca" could even be /Sa/ or /se/ rather than Key, n'est pas? I hate to muddy the waters, but all it takes is one person to miss the cedilla and we've switched the sound totally. These old names are so slippery, but fascinating! Best, Jill On Jul 18, 2014, at 8:17 PM, "Mcbride, Justin" wrote: When you showed me that program last year, Sky, I remember thinking, "Now, THIS is awesome!" As a guy who, for years, was asked questions like, "What's my Granddad's name mean?" on a weekly basis, only to be handed a string of indecipherable 'ah's, 'eh's, and hyphens with a few consonants mixed in for good measure, I would have relished the opportunity to see a list the possible permutations presented at once. Now, if you could just build in some phonotactic constraint logic and SQL interaction with some sort of lexical database to provide suggestions--you know, the easy stuff--you'd have the proverbial better mousetrap! :) Ah, it's fun to dream! By the way, the name Kke Leze was the name of one of the last living male L1 Ks speakers. -jtm On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 7:34 PM, Sky Campbell wrote: Justin, I thought of that too (and even thought of turtle LOL...ke for ket?) but nothing came to mind for the rest. We have a precedent for this which is a name listed as "Ke Gre?e" (Prairie Turtle/Spotted Turtle). I seem to remember one or two more but can't think of them off the top of my head. And thanks for pointing out the "g" possibly being the "j" sound. That is usually one of the first things I consider but it totally slipped my mind. Man, I really, REALLY need to finish my "character/morpheme swap" program for situations like this. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mcbride, Justin Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 5:46 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Carominga Howdy, Jimm, I wonder about the division of syllables into Caro and Monga. Is it possible that it could be Ca Romonga? I ask becasue, if it were a Kaw name, I'd think it might have something to do with kke, 'turtle,' which I'm pretty sure I've seen spelled as Ca in names before. I would also look at the r as representing either Ks y or l, and -ga part at the end (if it's not been switched, as Sky suggests, which I think is probable) as possibly representing like the Ks syllable j^e, which seems to happen fairly frequently in the names I've looked at. In short, I would expect something like kke yaNmaNj^e, which doesn't ring any bells at all in Ks. Now, I don't know much at all about IOM, lexically or phonologically--maybe this makes even less sense in IOM--but thought I just might throw that out there as food for thought. All the best, -Justin On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Sky Campbell wrote: The "caro" portion has me thinking of a few possibilities: kera (as you pointed out) giro (happy) The "monga" has me thinking of: mange (lying down) mange (chest) womanke (easy) <-- perhaps unlikely m?nka (medicine) <-- seems the most unlikely but I thought I'd throw it in there Last is a "theory" that I have that perhaps somehow, some way, "monga" might be a form of "manyi/manye". Considering how many examples of "ng" and "ny" being swapped out (sunge/sunye, -inge/-inye, etc.), I wonder if perhaps it might be a version of "manyi". Especially since that word is used in so many names already and your friend noted that it appears in other names as well. This is just speculation, of course. Speaking of which, if they could provide examples of other names that use "monga", it might help us figure it out. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 9:25 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Fw: Carominga Does anyone have some thoughts to decipher the name: "Caromonga." The last part appears to be "mange" (be in sitting position). The first could be "kera" (cleared sky). From: Greg Olson Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 4:48 PM To: Jimm GoodTracks Subject: Carominga Jimm, while proofing my manuscript, I came across an Ioway name I had overlooked. Caromonga. He is mentioned insome council meetings during the 1840s. I notice the end of the name- monga -appears in other names too. Greg -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. ?? -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image005.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 16156 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image006.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 6231 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Wed Jul 23 18:14:39 2014 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 18:14:39 +0000 Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E436C33FE5D338@Server6-EX.omtribe.net> Message-ID: Sky, do we know what ?monga? means in the other names, Washkamonga and Neumonga? Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2014 9:28 AM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga Greg was gracious enough to let me see the copies he was drawing from and sure enough, it looks like "monga" in the name. But what I found interesting in that document was other familiar names...Washkamonga and Neumonga which we've seen elsewhere with the "monga" portion spelled with an "ny" instead of an "ng". I also looked at the 1842 Ioway census and found "Caromonga" but instead it was spelled "Caramonya". I did a quick Google search for "Caramonya" and got a couple hits on some books that had excerpts from Hamilton's journal. He describes "Caramonya" as "an old Indian who often visits us." Unfortunately he doesn't translate the name. My first reaction was to think that perhaps Hamilton might be using his own orthography that he used in his books but the rest of the spelling doesn't bear that out. I'd love to see more of Hamilton's journal to see if there are any clues in there. Anyone know where I could get a hold of such a thing? So it looks like that ending may actually be "manyi" (but perhaps not for the "ng/ny swap" that I suggested but maybe just a handwriting issue). And it looks like both versions were written by the same person (there is the same flourish on the capital "C" in both versions of the name). Council meeting image: [Caromonga.jpg] Ioway census image: [Caramonya.jpg] So if it is "Cara-" instead of "Caro-", then that can open up more possibilities perhaps. But I'm still only coming up with ket?, kera and giro as my top suggestions for now. Sky Campbell Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2014 9:35 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga Importance: Low Well, going on what Jill says, the closet thing I can find is: ?ed?na?e; ?ed?na?a adv/prn. that distant curvilinear object yonder; that distant land in sight. However, I'm not comfortable that it is a good fit for "Carominga." I don't know if the original notation was from a French or English document, and as such, cannot know to consider the phonetic value of the "C." But going with the possibility of it being "K?" as in "K?tan" (turtle), we have: k?tan; ket?nha; keton^a (SKN); qetan (DOR) n. turtle. k?tan x?ha n. turtle shell. K?tan w??i p? a???e ke, It is said that turtle meat is good. k?gr?dhei?e; k?gr?dhei?e spotted (or) sand turtle kehtonha (SKN) snapping turtle; snapper k?marax^?n; kem?rax^in (LWR) snapping turtle k? m?rax^in ?wrinkled turtle? mud turtle ket?nna (LWR) snapping turtle; snapper But you see, the best contender is for: k?ra adj. clear (sky). Clear Day; Clear Sky Appears (a personal Buffalo Clan name) n. K?ra T?n^in; K^?ra T?n^in. **SEE: gith?je; clear. Also, thinking about the breakup of syllables as Justin suggest, there could be a connect with: rominj? n. island. Rominj?^i?e(mi); Rom?nchi?e; Ir?mi?h?ji; J?rominje; Romijii?emi (DOR); r?mits? (MAX) (a personal Buffalo Clan and Beaver Clan name) Little Island. Romihingu ~ Romihi?u (SKN); Romijii?emi (DOR) (a personal Pigeon Clan name) Island. And there was maybe the "g" is really a "j" which gives only one unlikely possibility: m?nje (?)(LWR); masj? adj/v.i. hot, warm (weather). With the above, one could squeeze out a "Turtle Island," but, this possibility is not convincing to me. SO THEN, in appreciation to everyone's input, I have arrived full circle to my original conjecture that the name that most likely fits the documented transcription is: K?raM?nge (Clearing Day All About~ Prevailing). In this case, the "m?nge" (sitting) is used in the sense of a positional verb, saying that the clearing of the sky, was extensive over a wide area such might be view on the breathe of the open plains. Further, such a rendering would be consistant to similar clan names. I suggest one possibilty for Grey in working with his narrative is to include with the composed name, the original transcription, such as, "K?raM?nge (Clearing Day All About) [Carminga (Document Source citations)]. Unless, new evidence appears, or further information, this is the best that can be made of that name. H?nhe Pi, Good Night, Buenas Noches! From: Greer, Jill Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2014 6:22 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Carominga Justin and Sky - You guys with your programming talents- impressive! Just one question for Jimm and Greg - if the original person who transcribed the name was French (or a mixed blood literate in French- as was common around St. Joseph), the first syllabie "Ca" could even be /Sa/ or /se/ rather than Key, n'est pas? I hate to muddy the waters, but all it takes is one person to miss the cedilla and we've switched the sound totally. These old names are so slippery, but fascinating! Best, Jill On Jul 18, 2014, at 8:17 PM, "Mcbride, Justin" > wrote: When you showed me that program last year, Sky, I remember thinking, "Now, THIS is awesome!" As a guy who, for years, was asked questions like, "What's my Granddad's name mean?" on a weekly basis, only to be handed a string of indecipherable 'ah's, 'eh's, and hyphens with a few consonants mixed in for good measure, I would have relished the opportunity to see a list the possible permutations presented at once. Now, if you could just build in some phonotactic constraint logic and SQL interaction with some sort of lexical database to provide suggestions--you know, the easy stuff--you'd have the proverbial better mousetrap! :) Ah, it's fun to dream! By the way, the name Kke Leze was the name of one of the last living male L1 Ks speakers. -jtm On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 7:34 PM, Sky Campbell > wrote: Justin, I thought of that too (and even thought of turtle LOL...ke for ket?) but nothing came to mind for the rest. We have a precedent for this which is a name listed as "Ke Gre?e" (Prairie Turtle/Spotted Turtle). I seem to remember one or two more but can't think of them off the top of my head. And thanks for pointing out the "g" possibly being the "j" sound. That is usually one of the first things I consider but it totally slipped my mind. Man, I really, REALLY need to finish my "character/morpheme swap" program for situations like this. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mcbride, Justin Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 5:46 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Carominga Howdy, Jimm, I wonder about the division of syllables into Caro and Monga. Is it possible that it could be Ca Romonga? I ask becasue, if it were a Kaw name, I'd think it might have something to do with kke, 'turtle,' which I'm pretty sure I've seen spelled as Ca in names before. I would also look at the r as representing either Ks y or l, and -ga part at the end (if it's not been switched, as Sky suggests, which I think is probable) as possibly representing like the Ks syllable j^e, which seems to happen fairly frequently in the names I've looked at. In short, I would expect something like kke yaNmaNj^e, which doesn't ring any bells at all in Ks. Now, I don't know much at all about IOM, lexically or phonologically--maybe this makes even less sense in IOM--but thought I just might throw that out there as food for thought. All the best, -Justin On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Sky Campbell > wrote: The "caro" portion has me thinking of a few possibilities: kera (as you pointed out) giro (happy) The "monga" has me thinking of: mange (lying down) mange (chest) womanke (easy) <-- perhaps unlikely m?nka (medicine) <-- seems the most unlikely but I thought I'd throw it in there Last is a "theory" that I have that perhaps somehow, some way, "monga" might be a form of "manyi/manye". Considering how many examples of "ng" and "ny" being swapped out (sunge/sunye, -inge/-inye, etc.), I wonder if perhaps it might be a version of "manyi". Especially since that word is used in so many names already and your friend noted that it appears in other names as well. This is just speculation, of course. Speaking of which, if they could provide examples of other names that use "monga", it might help us figure it out. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 9:25 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Fw: Carominga Does anyone have some thoughts to decipher the name: "Caromonga." The last part appears to be "mange" (be in sitting position). The first could be "kera" (cleared sky). From: Greg Olson Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 4:48 PM To: Jimm GoodTracks Subject: Carominga Jimm, while proofing my manuscript, I came across an Ioway name I had overlooked. Caromonga. He is mentioned insome council meetings during the 1840s. I notice the end of the name- monga -appears in other names too. Greg -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. ?? -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 16156 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 6231 bytes Desc: image002.jpg URL: From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG Wed Jul 23 19:19:51 2014 From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 14:19:51 -0500 Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga In-Reply-To: <4c62ab0d41d84d2d83b9d3dfa5ae9ef0@DM2PR08MB525.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Those names are listed with "manyi" in other sources. For example, Catlin has "Neu-mon-ya" and "Wash-ka-mon-ya" where that "manyi" can (usually) refer to "walk" or "always". Ioway treaties has spellings like "Washcommanee" and "Ne-o-mon-ni". What I'm thinking is that perhaps the "monga" came from looking a poor copies of old documents and that those "g" characters are most likely "y" characters. These characters are handwritten and it only takes one little movement to "close up" a "y" at the top and make it look like a "g". I've seen "Niyu Manyi" translated as walking rain, moving rain, and always raining. I tend to lean towards that last one. The name "Washka Manyi" as been translated as great walker, great marcher, and fast dancer so that one is a little tougher. I can see how "washka" could maybe be a mash-up of "washi" (dance) and "k?tha" (fast). But when I decided to hit up a Ponca friend about his name "Washka" (that's his legal name, not just his "Indian name"), I found out the full form of his name is "Washka Mathi" which he translated as "Stands Strong." I know that "mathi" in Ponca/Omaha is a cognate to the Otoe-Ioway "manyi" and also that Otoes and Ioways had the form "mathi" a long time ago. So that got me to thinking that perhaps this Ioway individual might have roughly the same name as my Ponca friend (cognate forms notwithstanding). The only trouble with that theory is that I've never seen a term "washka" to mean "strong" like it does in Ponca. Dorsey shows the Jiwere cognate to "washka" as "brixe" (which is the term I am familiar with). So is this one of those instances where Otoe-Ioway had more in common with Dhegiha almost 200 years ago and "washka" was used to mean "strong" (or a similiar idea) but no longer does? It would seem likely since some of those translations for that name have the word "great" in them along with walker or marcher. Strong walker/strong marcher perhaps? But without more information, this is just yet another thing for me to keep in the back of my mind until I find that bit of information that helps clear it up. May that day come soon! Sky Campbell Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2014 1:15 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga Sky, do we know what ?monga? means in the other names, Washkamonga and Neumonga? Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2014 9:28 AM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga Greg was gracious enough to let me see the copies he was drawing from and sure enough, it looks like "monga" in the name. But what I found interesting in that document was other familiar names...Washkamonga and Neumonga which we've seen elsewhere with the "monga" portion spelled with an "ny" instead of an "ng". I also looked at the 1842 Ioway census and found "Caromonga" but instead it was spelled "Caramonya". I did a quick Google search for "Caramonya" and got a couple hits on some books that had excerpts from Hamilton's journal. He describes "Caramonya" as "an old Indian who often visits us." Unfortunately he doesn't translate the name. My first reaction was to think that perhaps Hamilton might be using his own orthography that he used in his books but the rest of the spelling doesn't bear that out. I'd love to see more of Hamilton's journal to see if there are any clues in there. Anyone know where I could get a hold of such a thing? So it looks like that ending may actually be "manyi" (but perhaps not for the "ng/ny swap" that I suggested but maybe just a handwriting issue). And it looks like both versions were written by the same person (there is the same flourish on the capital "C" in both versions of the name). Council meeting image: [cid:image001.jpg at 01CFA67E.4F680160] Ioway census image: [cid:image002.jpg at 01CFA67E.4F680160] So if it is "Cara-" instead of "Caro-", then that can open up more possibilities perhaps. But I'm still only coming up with ket?, kera and giro as my top suggestions for now. Sky Campbell Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2014 9:35 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga Importance: Low Well, going on what Jill says, the closet thing I can find is: ?ed?na?e; ?ed?na?a adv/prn. that distant curvilinear object yonder; that distant land in sight. However, I'm not comfortable that it is a good fit for "Carominga." I don't know if the original notation was from a French or English document, and as such, cannot know to consider the phonetic value of the "C." But going with the possibility of it being "K?" as in "K?tan" (turtle), we have: k?tan; ket?nha; keton^a (SKN); qetan (DOR) n. turtle. k?tan x?ha n. turtle shell. K?tan w??i p? a???e ke, It is said that turtle meat is good. k?gr?dhei?e; k?gr?dhei?e spotted (or) sand turtle kehtonha (SKN) snapping turtle; snapper k?marax^?n; kem?rax^in (LWR) snapping turtle k? m?rax^in ?wrinkled turtle? mud turtle ket?nna (LWR) snapping turtle; snapper But you see, the best contender is for: k?ra adj. clear (sky). Clear Day; Clear Sky Appears (a personal Buffalo Clan name) n. K?ra T?n^in; K^?ra T?n^in. **SEE: gith?je; clear. Also, thinking about the breakup of syllables as Justin suggest, there could be a connect with: rominj? n. island. Rominj?^i?e(mi); Rom?nchi?e; Ir?mi?h?ji; J?rominje; Romijii?emi (DOR); r?mits? (MAX) (a personal Buffalo Clan and Beaver Clan name) Little Island. Romihingu ~ Romihi?u (SKN); Romijii?emi (DOR) (a personal Pigeon Clan name) Island. And there was maybe the "g" is really a "j" which gives only one unlikely possibility: m?nje (?)(LWR); masj? adj/v.i. hot, warm (weather). With the above, one could squeeze out a "Turtle Island," but, this possibility is not convincing to me. SO THEN, in appreciation to everyone's input, I have arrived full circle to my original conjecture that the name that most likely fits the documented transcription is: K?raM?nge (Clearing Day All About~ Prevailing). In this case, the "m?nge" (sitting) is used in the sense of a positional verb, saying that the clearing of the sky, was extensive over a wide area such might be view on the breathe of the open plains. Further, such a rendering would be consistant to similar clan names. I suggest one possibilty for Grey in working with his narrative is to include with the composed name, the original transcription, such as, "K?raM?nge (Clearing Day All About) [Carminga (Document Source citations)]. Unless, new evidence appears, or further information, this is the best that can be made of that name. H?nhe Pi, Good Night, Buenas Noches! From: Greer, Jill Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2014 6:22 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Carominga Justin and Sky - You guys with your programming talents- impressive! Just one question for Jimm and Greg - if the original person who transcribed the name was French (or a mixed blood literate in French- as was common around St. Joseph), the first syllabie "Ca" could even be /Sa/ or /se/ rather than Key, n'est pas? I hate to muddy the waters, but all it takes is one person to miss the cedilla and we've switched the sound totally. These old names are so slippery, but fascinating! Best, Jill On Jul 18, 2014, at 8:17 PM, "Mcbride, Justin" > wrote: When you showed me that program last year, Sky, I remember thinking, "Now, THIS is awesome!" As a guy who, for years, was asked questions like, "What's my Granddad's name mean?" on a weekly basis, only to be handed a string of indecipherable 'ah's, 'eh's, and hyphens with a few consonants mixed in for good measure, I would have relished the opportunity to see a list the possible permutations presented at once. Now, if you could just build in some phonotactic constraint logic and SQL interaction with some sort of lexical database to provide suggestions--you know, the easy stuff--you'd have the proverbial better mousetrap! :) Ah, it's fun to dream! By the way, the name Kke Leze was the name of one of the last living male L1 Ks speakers. -jtm On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 7:34 PM, Sky Campbell > wrote: Justin, I thought of that too (and even thought of turtle LOL...ke for ket?) but nothing came to mind for the rest. We have a precedent for this which is a name listed as "Ke Gre?e" (Prairie Turtle/Spotted Turtle). I seem to remember one or two more but can't think of them off the top of my head. And thanks for pointing out the "g" possibly being the "j" sound. That is usually one of the first things I consider but it totally slipped my mind. Man, I really, REALLY need to finish my "character/morpheme swap" program for situations like this. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mcbride, Justin Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 5:46 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Carominga Howdy, Jimm, I wonder about the division of syllables into Caro and Monga. Is it possible that it could be Ca Romonga? I ask becasue, if it were a Kaw name, I'd think it might have something to do with kke, 'turtle,' which I'm pretty sure I've seen spelled as Ca in names before. I would also look at the r as representing either Ks y or l, and -ga part at the end (if it's not been switched, as Sky suggests, which I think is probable) as possibly representing like the Ks syllable j^e, which seems to happen fairly frequently in the names I've looked at. In short, I would expect something like kke yaNmaNj^e, which doesn't ring any bells at all in Ks. Now, I don't know much at all about IOM, lexically or phonologically--maybe this makes even less sense in IOM--but thought I just might throw that out there as food for thought. All the best, -Justin On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Sky Campbell > wrote: The "caro" portion has me thinking of a few possibilities: kera (as you pointed out) giro (happy) The "monga" has me thinking of: mange (lying down) mange (chest) womanke (easy) <-- perhaps unlikely m?nka (medicine) <-- seems the most unlikely but I thought I'd throw it in there Last is a "theory" that I have that perhaps somehow, some way, "monga" might be a form of "manyi/manye". Considering how many examples of "ng" and "ny" being swapped out (sunge/sunye, -inge/-inye, etc.), I wonder if perhaps it might be a version of "manyi". Especially since that word is used in so many names already and your friend noted that it appears in other names as well. This is just speculation, of course. Speaking of which, if they could provide examples of other names that use "monga", it might help us figure it out. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 9:25 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Fw: Carominga Does anyone have some thoughts to decipher the name: "Caromonga." The last part appears to be "mange" (be in sitting position). The first could be "kera" (cleared sky). From: Greg Olson Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 4:48 PM To: Jimm GoodTracks Subject: Carominga Jimm, while proofing my manuscript, I came across an Ioway name I had overlooked. Caromonga. He is mentioned insome council meetings during the 1840s. I notice the end of the name- monga -appears in other names too. Greg -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. ?? -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 16156 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 6231 bytes Desc: image002.jpg URL: From stanleyl at LUTHER.EDU Thu Jul 24 20:11:37 2014 From: stanleyl at LUTHER.EDU (Lori Stanley) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2014 15:11:37 -0500 Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E436C33FE5D423@Server6-EX.omtribe.net> Message-ID: Sky, Here is the reference for the published version of Hamilton's journal: Hamilton, William 1885 Autobiography of Reverend William Hamilton. *Transactions and Reports of the Nebraska State Historical Society* 1:60-75. I'm sure I have a copy and could send you a PDF, but I'm out of town for a few days. Let me know if you get hold of it. If not, I'll send it when I get back. Lori On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 2:19 PM, Campbell, Sky wrote: > Those names are listed with "manyi" in other sources. For example, Catlin > has "Neu-mon-ya" and "Wash-ka-mon-ya" where that "manyi" can (usually) > refer to "walk" or "always". Ioway treaties has spellings like > "Washcommanee" and "Ne-o-mon-ni". What I'm thinking is that perhaps the > "monga" came from looking a poor copies of old documents and that those "g" > characters are most likely "y" characters. These characters are > handwritten and it only takes one little movement to "close up" a "y" at > the top and make it look like a "g". > > > > I've seen "Niyu Manyi" translated as walking rain, moving rain, and always > raining. I tend to lean towards that last one. > > > > The name "Washka Manyi" as been translated as great walker, great marcher, > and fast dancer so that one is a little tougher. I can see how "washka" > could maybe be a mash-up of "washi" (dance) and "k?tha" (fast). But when I > decided to hit up a Ponca friend about his name "Washka" (that's his legal > name, not just his "Indian name"), I found out the full form of his name is > "Washka Mathi" which he translated as "Stands Strong." I know that "mathi" > in Ponca/Omaha is a cognate to the Otoe-Ioway "manyi" and also that Otoes > and Ioways had the form "mathi" a long time ago. So that got me to > thinking that perhaps this Ioway individual might have roughly the same > name as my Ponca friend (cognate forms notwithstanding). The only trouble > with that theory is that I've never seen a term "washka" to mean "strong" > like it does in Ponca. Dorsey shows the Jiwere cognate to "washka" as > "brixe" (which is the term I am familiar with). So is this one of those > instances where Otoe-Ioway had more in common with Dhegiha almost 200 years > ago and "washka" was used to mean "strong" (or a similiar idea) but no > longer does? It would seem likely since some of those translations for > that name have the word "great" in them along with walker or marcher. > Strong walker/strong marcher perhaps? But without more information, this > is just yet another thing for me to keep in the back of my mind until I > find that bit of information that helps clear it up. May that day come > soon! > > > > *Sky Campbell* > > Language Director > > Otoe-Missouria Tribe > > (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 > > sky at omtribe.org > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of > *Rory Larson > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 23, 2014 1:15 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga > > > > Sky, do we know what ?monga? means in the other names, Washkamonga and > Neumonga? > > > > Best, > > Rory > > > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > ] *On Behalf Of *Campbell, Sky > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 23, 2014 9:28 AM > *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU > *Subject:* Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga > > > > Greg was gracious enough to let me see the copies he was drawing from and > sure enough, it looks like "monga" in the name. But what I found > interesting in that document was other familiar names...Washkamonga and > Neumonga which we've seen elsewhere with the "monga" portion spelled with > an "ny" instead of an "ng". I also looked at the 1842 Ioway census and > found "Caromonga" but instead it was spelled "Caramonya". I did a quick > Google search for "Caramonya" and got a couple hits on some books that had > excerpts from Hamilton's journal. He describes "Caramonya" as "an old > Indian who often visits us." Unfortunately he doesn't translate the name. > My first reaction was to think that perhaps Hamilton might be using his own > orthography that he used in his books but the rest of the spelling doesn't > bear that out. I'd love to see more of Hamilton's journal to see if there > are any clues in there. Anyone know where I could get a hold of such a > thing? > > > > So it looks like that ending may actually be "manyi" (but perhaps not for > the "ng/ny swap" that I suggested but maybe just a handwriting issue). And > it looks like both versions were written by the same person (there is the > same flourish on the capital "C" in both versions of the name). > > > > Council meeting image: > > [image: Caromonga.jpg] > > > > Ioway census image: > > [image: Caramonya.jpg] > > > > So if it is "Cara-" instead of "Caro-", then that can open up more > possibilities perhaps. But I'm still only coming up with ket?, kera and > giro as my top suggestions for now. > > > > *Sky Campbell* > > Language Director > > Otoe-Missouria Tribe > > (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 > > sky at omtribe.org > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > ] *On Behalf Of *Jimm G. GoodTracks > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 22, 2014 9:35 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga > *Importance:* Low > > > > Well, going on what Jill says, the closet thing I can find is: *?ed?na?e; > ?ed?na?a** adv/prn. *that distant curvilinear object yonder; that > distant land in sight. However, I'm not comfortable that it is a good > fit for "Carominga." I don't know if the original notation was from a > French or English document, and as such, cannot know to consider the > phonetic value of the "C." > > > > But going with the possibility of it being "K?" as in "K?tan" (turtle), we > have: > > *k?tan; ket?nha;* keton^a (SKN); qetan (DOR)* n. *turtle. *k?tan x?ha** > n. *turtle shell. *K?tan* w??i p? a???e ke, It is said that *turtle* > meat is good. > > *k?gr?dhei?e; k?gr?dhei?e* spotted (or) sand turtle > > *kehtonha* (SKN) snapping turtle; snapper > > *k?marax^?n; kem?rax^in* (LWR) snapping turtle > > *k? m?rax^in* ?wrinkled turtle? mud turtle > > *ket?nna* (LWR) snapping turtle; snapper > > > > But you see, the best contender is for: > > * k?ra** adj. *clear (*sky*). *Clear Day;* *Clear Sky > Appears* (*a personal Buffalo Clan name*)* n. *K?ra T?n^in; K^?ra T?n^i > n. ***SEE*: *gith?je; clear.* > > > > Also, thinking about the breakup of syllables as Justin suggest, there > could be a connect with: > > *rominj?** n. *island. *Rominj?^i?e(mi); Rom?nchi?e; > Ir?mi?h?ji; J?rominje;* Romijii?emi (DOR); r?mits? (MAX) (*a personal > Buffalo Clan and Beaver Clan name*) Little Island. *Romihingu ~ > Romihi?u* (SKN)*;* Romijii?emi (DOR) (*a personal Pigeon Clan name*) > Island. > > And there was maybe the "g" is really a "j" which gives only one unlikely > possibility: > > *m?nje* (?)(LWR)*; masj?** adj/v.i. *hot, warm (*weather*). > > With the above, one could squeeze out a "Turtle Island," but, this > possibility is not convincing to me. > > > > *SO THEN, *in appreciation to everyone's input, I have arrived full > circle to my original conjecture that the name that most likely fits the > documented transcription is: > > > > *K?raM?nge* (Clearing Day All About~ Prevailing). In this case, the > "m?nge" (sitting) is used in the sense of a positional verb, saying that > the clearing of the sky, was extensive over a wide area such might be view > on the breathe of the open plains. Further, such a rendering would be > consistant to similar clan names. > > > > I suggest one possibilty for Grey in working with his narrative is to > include with the composed name, the original transcription, such as, " > *K?raM?nge* (Clearing Day All About) [Carminga (Document Source > citations)]. Unless, new evidence appears, or further information, this > is the best that can be made of that name. > > > > H?nhe Pi, Good Night, Buenas Noches! > > > > > > > > *From:* Greer, Jill > > *Sent:* Saturday, July 19, 2014 6:22 PM > > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > > *Subject:* Re: Carominga > > > > Justin and Sky - > > You guys with your programming talents- impressive! > > > > Just one question for Jimm and Greg - if the original person who > transcribed the name was French (or a mixed blood literate in French- as > was common around St. Joseph), the first syllabie "Ca" could even be /Sa/ > or /se/ rather than Key, n'est pas? I hate to muddy the waters, but all > it takes is one person to miss the cedilla and we've switched the sound > totally. These old names are so slippery, but fascinating! > > > > Best, > > Jill > > > > > > On Jul 18, 2014, at 8:17 PM, "Mcbride, Justin" < > jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU> > > wrote: > > > > When you showed me that program last year, Sky, I remember thinking, "Now, > THIS is awesome!" As a guy who, for years, was asked questions like, > "What's my Granddad's name mean?" on a weekly basis, only to be handed a > string of indecipherable 'ah's, 'eh's, and hyphens with a few consonants > mixed in for good measure, I would have relished the opportunity to see a > list the possible permutations presented at once. Now, if you could just > build in some phonotactic constraint logic and SQL interaction with some > sort of lexical database to provide suggestions--you know, the easy > stuff--you'd have the proverbial better mousetrap! :) Ah, it's fun to > dream! > > > > By the way, the name Kke Leze was the name of one of the last living male > L1 Ks speakers. -jtm > > > > On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 7:34 PM, Sky Campbell > wrote: > > Justin, > > > > I thought of that too (and even thought of turtle LOL...ke for ket?) but > nothing came to mind for the rest. We have a precedent for this which is a > name listed as "Ke Gre?e" (Prairie Turtle/Spotted Turtle). I seem to > remember one or two more but can't think of them off the top of my head. > > > > And thanks for pointing out the "g" possibly being the "j" sound. That is > usually one of the first things I consider but it totally slipped my mind. > Man, I really, REALLY need to finish my "character/morpheme swap" program > for situations like this. > > > > Sky > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of > *Mcbride, Justin > *Sent:* Friday, July 18, 2014 5:46 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Re: Carominga > > > > Howdy, Jimm, > > > > I wonder about the division of syllables into Caro and Monga. Is it > possible that it could be Ca Romonga? I ask becasue, if it were a Kaw name, > I'd think it might have something to do with kke, 'turtle,' which I'm > pretty sure I've seen spelled as Ca in names before. I would also look at > the r as representing either Ks y or l, and -ga part at the end (if it's > not been switched, as Sky suggests, which I think is probable) as possibly > representing like the Ks syllable j^e, which seems to happen fairly > frequently in the names I've looked at. In short, I would expect something > like kke yaNmaNj^e, which doesn't ring any bells at all in Ks. Now, I don't > know much at all about IOM, lexically or phonologically--maybe this makes > even less sense in IOM--but thought I just might throw that out there as > food for thought. > > > > All the best, > > -Justin > > > > On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Sky Campbell > wrote: > > The "caro" portion has me thinking of a few possibilities: > > > > kera (as you pointed out) > > giro (happy) > > > > The "monga" has me thinking of: > > > > mange (lying down) > > mange (chest) > > womanke (easy) <-- perhaps unlikely > > m?nka (medicine) <-- seems the most unlikely but I thought I'd throw it in > there > > > > Last is a "theory" that I have that perhaps somehow, some way, "monga" > might be a form of "manyi/manye". Considering how many examples of "ng" > and "ny" being swapped out (sunge/sunye, -inge/-inye, etc.), I wonder if > perhaps it might be a version of "manyi". Especially since that word is > used in so many names already and your friend noted that it appears in > other names as well. This is just speculation, of course. Speaking of > which, if they could provide examples of other names that use "monga", it > might help us figure it out. > > > > Sky > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of > *Jimm G. GoodTracks > *Sent:* Friday, July 18, 2014 9:25 AM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Fw: Carominga > > > > Does anyone have some thoughts to decipher the name: "Caromonga." The > last part appears to be "mange" (be in sitting position). The first could > be "kera" (cleared sky). > > > > > > *From:* Greg Olson > > *Sent:* Friday, July 11, 2014 4:48 PM > > *To:* Jimm GoodTracks > > *Subject:* Carominga > > > > Jimm, while proofing my manuscript, I came across an Ioway name I had > overlooked. Caromonga. He is mentioned insome council meetings during the > 1840s. I notice the end of the name- monga -appears in other names too. > > > > Greg > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. > > > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. > > > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. > > > > > > This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject > to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for > the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended > recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of > the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by > law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please > notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your > subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not > accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier > DMARC policies. > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. > > > ?? > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. > > ?? > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. > -- Lori A. Stanley Professor of Anthropology Luther College 700 College Drive Decorah, Iowa 52101 563-387-1283 -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 6231 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 16156 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Thu Jul 24 21:58:26 2014 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm G. GoodTracks) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2014 16:58:26 -0500 Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lori: Darihga: I would appreciate it if you could also send me a PDF of the Hamilton Journal. I do not believe I have ever seen it. Aho, Jimm From: Lori Stanley Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 3:11 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga Sky, Here is the reference for the published version of Hamilton's journal: Hamilton, William 1885 Autobiography of Reverend William Hamilton. Transactions and Reports of the Nebraska State Historical Society 1:60-75. I'm sure I have a copy and could send you a PDF, but I'm out of town for a few days. Let me know if you get hold of it. If not, I'll send it when I get back. Lori On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 2:19 PM, Campbell, Sky wrote: Those names are listed with "manyi" in other sources. For example, Catlin has "Neu-mon-ya" and "Wash-ka-mon-ya" where that "manyi" can (usually) refer to "walk" or "always". Ioway treaties has spellings like "Washcommanee" and "Ne-o-mon-ni". What I'm thinking is that perhaps the "monga" came from looking a poor copies of old documents and that those "g" characters are most likely "y" characters. These characters are handwritten and it only takes one little movement to "close up" a "y" at the top and make it look like a "g". I've seen "Niyu Manyi" translated as walking rain, moving rain, and always raining. I tend to lean towards that last one. The name "Washka Manyi" as been translated as great walker, great marcher, and fast dancer so that one is a little tougher. I can see how "washka" could maybe be a mash-up of "washi" (dance) and "k?tha" (fast). But when I decided to hit up a Ponca friend about his name "Washka" (that's his legal name, not just his "Indian name"), I found out the full form of his name is "Washka Mathi" which he translated as "Stands Strong." I know that "mathi" in Ponca/Omaha is a cognate to the Otoe-Ioway "manyi" and also that Otoes and Ioways had the form "mathi" a long time ago. So that got me to thinking that perhaps this Ioway individual might have roughly the same name as my Ponca friend (cognate forms notwithstanding). The only trouble with that theory is that I've never seen a term "washka" to mean "strong" like it does in Ponca. Dorsey shows the Jiwere cognate to "washka" as "brixe" (which is the term I am familiar with). So is this one of those instances where Otoe-Ioway had more in common with Dhegiha almost 200 years ago and "washka" was used to mean "strong" (or a similiar idea) but no longer does? It would seem likely since some of those translations for that name have the word "great" in them along with walker or marcher. Strong walker/strong marcher perhaps? But without more information, this is just yet another thing for me to keep in the back of my mind until I find that bit of information that helps clear it up. May that day come soon! Sky Campbell Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2014 1:15 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga Sky, do we know what ?monga? means in the other names, Washkamonga and Neumonga? Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2014 9:28 AM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga Greg was gracious enough to let me see the copies he was drawing from and sure enough, it looks like "monga" in the name. But what I found interesting in that document was other familiar names...Washkamonga and Neumonga which we've seen elsewhere with the "monga" portion spelled with an "ny" instead of an "ng". I also looked at the 1842 Ioway census and found "Caromonga" but instead it was spelled "Caramonya". I did a quick Google search for "Caramonya" and got a couple hits on some books that had excerpts from Hamilton's journal. He describes "Caramonya" as "an old Indian who often visits us." Unfortunately he doesn't translate the name. My first reaction was to think that perhaps Hamilton might be using his own orthography that he used in his books but the rest of the spelling doesn't bear that out. I'd love to see more of Hamilton's journal to see if there are any clues in there. Anyone know where I could get a hold of such a thing? So it looks like that ending may actually be "manyi" (but perhaps not for the "ng/ny swap" that I suggested but maybe just a handwriting issue). And it looks like both versions were written by the same person (there is the same flourish on the capital "C" in both versions of the name). Council meeting image: Ioway census image: So if it is "Cara-" instead of "Caro-", then that can open up more possibilities perhaps. But I'm still only coming up with ket?, kera and giro as my top suggestions for now. Sky Campbell Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2014 9:35 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga Importance: Low Well, going on what Jill says, the closet thing I can find is: ?ed?na?e; ?ed?na?a adv/prn. that distant curvilinear object yonder; that distant land in sight. However, I'm not comfortable that it is a good fit for "Carominga." I don't know if the original notation was from a French or English document, and as such, cannot know to consider the phonetic value of the "C." But going with the possibility of it being "K?" as in "K?tan" (turtle), we have: k?tan; ket?nha; keton^a (SKN); qetan (DOR) n. turtle. k?tan x?ha n. turtle shell. K?tan w??i p? a???e ke, It is said that turtle meat is good. k?gr?dhei?e; k?gr?dhei?e spotted (or) sand turtle kehtonha (SKN) snapping turtle; snapper k?marax^?n; kem?rax^in (LWR) snapping turtle k? m?rax^in ?wrinkled turtle? mud turtle ket?nna (LWR) snapping turtle; snapper But you see, the best contender is for: k?ra adj. clear (sky). Clear Day; Clear Sky Appears (a personal Buffalo Clan name) n. K?ra T?n^in; K^?ra T?n^in. **SEE: gith?je; clear. Also, thinking about the breakup of syllables as Justin suggest, there could be a connect with: rominj? n. island. Rominj?^i?e(mi); Rom?nchi?e; Ir?mi?h?ji; J?rominje; Romijii?emi (DOR); r?mits? (MAX) (a personal Buffalo Clan and Beaver Clan name) Little Island. Romihingu ~ Romihi?u (SKN); Romijii?emi (DOR) (a personal Pigeon Clan name) Island. And there was maybe the "g" is really a "j" which gives only one unlikely possibility: m?nje (?)(LWR); masj? adj/v.i. hot, warm (weather). With the above, one could squeeze out a "Turtle Island," but, this possibility is not convincing to me. SO THEN, in appreciation to everyone's input, I have arrived full circle to my original conjecture that the name that most likely fits the documented transcription is: K?raM?nge (Clearing Day All About~ Prevailing). In this case, the "m?nge" (sitting) is used in the sense of a positional verb, saying that the clearing of the sky, was extensive over a wide area such might be view on the breathe of the open plains. Further, such a rendering would be consistant to similar clan names. I suggest one possibilty for Grey in working with his narrative is to include with the composed name, the original transcription, such as, "K?raM?nge (Clearing Day All About) [Carminga (Document Source citations)]. Unless, new evidence appears, or further information, this is the best that can be made of that name. H?nhe Pi, Good Night, Buenas Noches! From: Greer, Jill Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2014 6:22 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Carominga Justin and Sky - You guys with your programming talents- impressive! Just one question for Jimm and Greg - if the original person who transcribed the name was French (or a mixed blood literate in French- as was common around St. Joseph), the first syllabie "Ca" could even be /Sa/ or /se/ rather than Key, n'est pas? I hate to muddy the waters, but all it takes is one person to miss the cedilla and we've switched the sound totally. These old names are so slippery, but fascinating! Best, Jill On Jul 18, 2014, at 8:17 PM, "Mcbride, Justin" wrote: When you showed me that program last year, Sky, I remember thinking, "Now, THIS is awesome!" As a guy who, for years, was asked questions like, "What's my Granddad's name mean?" on a weekly basis, only to be handed a string of indecipherable 'ah's, 'eh's, and hyphens with a few consonants mixed in for good measure, I would have relished the opportunity to see a list the possible permutations presented at once. Now, if you could just build in some phonotactic constraint logic and SQL interaction with some sort of lexical database to provide suggestions--you know, the easy stuff--you'd have the proverbial better mousetrap! :) Ah, it's fun to dream! By the way, the name Kke Leze was the name of one of the last living male L1 Ks speakers. -jtm On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 7:34 PM, Sky Campbell wrote: Justin, I thought of that too (and even thought of turtle LOL...ke for ket?) but nothing came to mind for the rest. We have a precedent for this which is a name listed as "Ke Gre?e" (Prairie Turtle/Spotted Turtle). I seem to remember one or two more but can't think of them off the top of my head. And thanks for pointing out the "g" possibly being the "j" sound. That is usually one of the first things I consider but it totally slipped my mind. Man, I really, REALLY need to finish my "character/morpheme swap" program for situations like this. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mcbride, Justin Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 5:46 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Carominga Howdy, Jimm, I wonder about the division of syllables into Caro and Monga. Is it possible that it could be Ca Romonga? I ask becasue, if it were a Kaw name, I'd think it might have something to do with kke, 'turtle,' which I'm pretty sure I've seen spelled as Ca in names before. I would also look at the r as representing either Ks y or l, and -ga part at the end (if it's not been switched, as Sky suggests, which I think is probable) as possibly representing like the Ks syllable j^e, which seems to happen fairly frequently in the names I've looked at. In short, I would expect something like kke yaNmaNj^e, which doesn't ring any bells at all in Ks. Now, I don't know much at all about IOM, lexically or phonologically--maybe this makes even less sense in IOM--but thought I just might throw that out there as food for thought. All the best, -Justin On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Sky Campbell wrote: The "caro" portion has me thinking of a few possibilities: kera (as you pointed out) giro (happy) The "monga" has me thinking of: mange (lying down) mange (chest) womanke (easy) <-- perhaps unlikely m?nka (medicine) <-- seems the most unlikely but I thought I'd throw it in there Last is a "theory" that I have that perhaps somehow, some way, "monga" might be a form of "manyi/manye". Considering how many examples of "ng" and "ny" being swapped out (sunge/sunye, -inge/-inye, etc.), I wonder if perhaps it might be a version of "manyi". Especially since that word is used in so many names already and your friend noted that it appears in other names as well. This is just speculation, of course. Speaking of which, if they could provide examples of other names that use "monga", it might help us figure it out. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 9:25 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Fw: Carominga Does anyone have some thoughts to decipher the name: "Caromonga." The last part appears to be "mange" (be in sitting position). The first could be "kera" (cleared sky). From: Greg Olson Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 4:48 PM To: Jimm GoodTracks Subject: Carominga Jimm, while proofing my manuscript, I came across an Ioway name I had overlooked. Caromonga. He is mentioned insome council meetings during the 1840s. I notice the end of the name- monga -appears in other names too. Greg -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. ?? -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. ?? -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Lori A. Stanley Professor of Anthropology Luther College 700 College Drive Decorah, Iowa 52101 563-387-1283 -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 16156 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 6231 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Fri Jul 25 00:06:14 2014 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM (Sky Campbell) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2014 19:06:14 -0500 Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks for the idea but unfortunately I already have that. It isn't his journal but instead Hamilton was asked to write an autobiography. This autobiography is great reading and is in the form of a letter but unfortunately it isn't his journal :(. I'll attach it to this email just in case someone is interested. Jimm, I believe you've seen this before but if not, happy reading! :) Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Lori Stanley Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 3:12 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga Sky, Here is the reference for the published version of Hamilton's journal: Hamilton, William 1885 Autobiography of Reverend William Hamilton. Transactions and Reports of the Nebraska State Historical Society 1:60-75. I'm sure I have a copy and could send you a PDF, but I'm out of town for a few days. Let me know if you get hold of it. If not, I'll send it when I get back. Lori On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 2:19 PM, Campbell, Sky wrote: Those names are listed with "manyi" in other sources. For example, Catlin has "Neu-mon-ya" and "Wash-ka-mon-ya" where that "manyi" can (usually) refer to "walk" or "always". Ioway treaties has spellings like "Washcommanee" and "Ne-o-mon-ni". What I'm thinking is that perhaps the "monga" came from looking a poor copies of old documents and that those "g" characters are most likely "y" characters. These characters are handwritten and it only takes one little movement to "close up" a "y" at the top and make it look like a "g". I've seen "Niyu Manyi" translated as walking rain, moving rain, and always raining. I tend to lean towards that last one. The name "Washka Manyi" as been translated as great walker, great marcher, and fast dancer so that one is a little tougher. I can see how "washka" could maybe be a mash-up of "washi" (dance) and "k?tha" (fast). But when I decided to hit up a Ponca friend about his name "Washka" (that's his legal name, not just his "Indian name"), I found out the full form of his name is "Washka Mathi" which he translated as "Stands Strong." I know that "mathi" in Ponca/Omaha is a cognate to the Otoe-Ioway "manyi" and also that Otoes and Ioways had the form "mathi" a long time ago. So that got me to thinking that perhaps this Ioway individual might have roughly the same name as my Ponca friend (cognate forms notwithstanding). The only trouble with that theory is that I've never seen a term "washka" to mean "strong" like it does in Ponca. Dorsey shows the Jiwere cognate to "washka" as "brixe" (which is the term I am familiar with). So is this one of those instances where Otoe-Ioway had more in common with Dhegiha almost 200 years ago and "washka" was used to mean "strong" (or a similiar idea) but no longer does? It would seem likely since some of those translations for that name have the word "great" in them along with walker or marcher. Strong walker/strong marcher perhaps? But without more information, this is just yet another thing for me to keep in the back of my mind until I find that bit of information that helps clear it up. May that day come soon! Sky Campbell Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2014 1:15 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga Sky, do we know what ?monga? means in the other names, Washkamonga and Neumonga? Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2014 9:28 AM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga Greg was gracious enough to let me see the copies he was drawing from and sure enough, it looks like "monga" in the name. But what I found interesting in that document was other familiar names...Washkamonga and Neumonga which we've seen elsewhere with the "monga" portion spelled with an "ny" instead of an "ng". I also looked at the 1842 Ioway census and found "Caromonga" but instead it was spelled "Caramonya". I did a quick Google search for "Caramonya" and got a couple hits on some books that had excerpts from Hamilton's journal. He describes "Caramonya" as "an old Indian who often visits us." Unfortunately he doesn't translate the name. My first reaction was to think that perhaps Hamilton might be using his own orthography that he used in his books but the rest of the spelling doesn't bear that out. I'd love to see more of Hamilton's journal to see if there are any clues in there. Anyone know where I could get a hold of such a thing? So it looks like that ending may actually be "manyi" (but perhaps not for the "ng/ny swap" that I suggested but maybe just a handwriting issue). And it looks like both versions were written by the same person (there is the same flourish on the capital "C" in both versions of the name). Council meeting image: Caromonga.jpg Ioway census image: Caramonya.jpg So if it is "Cara-" instead of "Caro-", then that can open up more possibilities perhaps. But I'm still only coming up with ket?, kera and giro as my top suggestions for now. Sky Campbell Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2014 9:35 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga Importance: Low Well, going on what Jill says, the closet thing I can find is: ?ed?na?e; ?ed?na?a adv/prn. that distant curvilinear object yonder; that distant land in sight. However, I'm not comfortable that it is a good fit for "Carominga." I don't know if the original notation was from a French or English document, and as such, cannot know to consider the phonetic value of the "C." But going with the possibility of it being "K?" as in "K?tan" (turtle), we have: k?tan; ket?nha; keton^a (SKN); qetan (DOR) n. turtle. k?tan x?ha n. turtle shell. K?tan w??i p? a???e ke, It is said that turtle meat is good. k?gr?dhei?e; k?gr?dhei?e spotted (or) sand turtle kehtonha (SKN) snapping turtle; snapper k?marax^?n; kem?rax^in (LWR) snapping turtle k? m?rax^in ?wrinkled turtle? mud turtle ket?nna (LWR) snapping turtle; snapper But you see, the best contender is for: k?ra adj. clear (sky). Clear Day; Clear Sky Appears (a personal Buffalo Clan name) n. K?ra T?n^in; K^?ra T?n^in. **SEE: gith?je; clear. Also, thinking about the breakup of syllables as Justin suggest, there could be a connect with: rominj? n. island. Rominj?^i?e(mi); Rom?nchi?e; Ir?mi?h?ji; J?rominje; Romijii?emi (DOR); r?mits? (MAX) (a personal Buffalo Clan and Beaver Clan name) Little Island. Romihingu ~ Romihi?u (SKN); Romijii?emi (DOR) (a personal Pigeon Clan name) Island. And there was maybe the "g" is really a "j" which gives only one unlikely possibility: m?nje (?)(LWR); masj? adj/v.i. hot, warm (weather). With the above, one could squeeze out a "Turtle Island," but, this possibility is not convincing to me. SO THEN, in appreciation to everyone's input, I have arrived full circle to my original conjecture that the name that most likely fits the documented transcription is: K?raM?nge (Clearing Day All About~ Prevailing). In this case, the "m?nge" (sitting) is used in the sense of a positional verb, saying that the clearing of the sky, was extensive over a wide area such might be view on the breathe of the open plains. Further, such a rendering would be consistant to similar clan names. I suggest one possibilty for Grey in working with his narrative is to include with the composed name, the original transcription, such as, "K?raM?nge (Clearing Day All About) [Carminga (Document Source citations)]. Unless, new evidence appears, or further information, this is the best that can be made of that name. H?nhe Pi, Good Night, Buenas Noches! From: Greer, Jill Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2014 6:22 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Carominga Justin and Sky - You guys with your programming talents- impressive! Just one question for Jimm and Greg - if the original person who transcribed the name was French (or a mixed blood literate in French- as was common around St. Joseph), the first syllabie "Ca" could even be /Sa/ or /se/ rather than Key, n'est pas? I hate to muddy the waters, but all it takes is one person to miss the cedilla and we've switched the sound totally. These old names are so slippery, but fascinating! Best, Jill On Jul 18, 2014, at 8:17 PM, "Mcbride, Justin" wrote: When you showed me that program last year, Sky, I remember thinking, "Now, THIS is awesome!" As a guy who, for years, was asked questions like, "What's my Granddad's name mean?" on a weekly basis, only to be handed a string of indecipherable 'ah's, 'eh's, and hyphens with a few consonants mixed in for good measure, I would have relished the opportunity to see a list the possible permutations presented at once. Now, if you could just build in some phonotactic constraint logic and SQL interaction with some sort of lexical database to provide suggestions--you know, the easy stuff--you'd have the proverbial better mousetrap! :) Ah, it's fun to dream! By the way, the name Kke Leze was the name of one of the last living male L1 Ks speakers. -jtm On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 7:34 PM, Sky Campbell wrote: Justin, I thought of that too (and even thought of turtle LOL...ke for ket?) but nothing came to mind for the rest. We have a precedent for this which is a name listed as "Ke Gre?e" (Prairie Turtle/Spotted Turtle). I seem to remember one or two more but can't think of them off the top of my head. And thanks for pointing out the "g" possibly being the "j" sound. That is usually one of the first things I consider but it totally slipped my mind. Man, I really, REALLY need to finish my "character/morpheme swap" program for situations like this. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mcbride, Justin Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 5:46 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Carominga Howdy, Jimm, I wonder about the division of syllables into Caro and Monga. Is it possible that it could be Ca Romonga? I ask becasue, if it were a Kaw name, I'd think it might have something to do with kke, 'turtle,' which I'm pretty sure I've seen spelled as Ca in names before. I would also look at the r as representing either Ks y or l, and -ga part at the end (if it's not been switched, as Sky suggests, which I think is probable) as possibly representing like the Ks syllable j^e, which seems to happen fairly frequently in the names I've looked at. In short, I would expect something like kke yaNmaNj^e, which doesn't ring any bells at all in Ks. Now, I don't know much at all about IOM, lexically or phonologically--maybe this makes even less sense in IOM--but thought I just might throw that out there as food for thought. All the best, -Justin On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Sky Campbell wrote: The "caro" portion has me thinking of a few possibilities: kera (as you pointed out) giro (happy) The "monga" has me thinking of: mange (lying down) mange (chest) womanke (easy) <-- perhaps unlikely m?nka (medicine) <-- seems the most unlikely but I thought I'd throw it in there Last is a "theory" that I have that perhaps somehow, some way, "monga" might be a form of "manyi/manye". Considering how many examples of "ng" and "ny" being swapped out (sunge/sunye, -inge/-inye, etc.), I wonder if perhaps it might be a version of "manyi". Especially since that word is used in so many names already and your friend noted that it appears in other names as well. This is just speculation, of course. Speaking of which, if they could provide examples of other names that use "monga", it might help us figure it out. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 9:25 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Fw: Carominga Does anyone have some thoughts to decipher the name: "Caromonga." The last part appears to be "mange" (be in sitting position). The first could be "kera" (cleared sky). From: Greg Olson Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 4:48 PM To: Jimm GoodTracks Subject: Carominga Jimm, while proofing my manuscript, I came across an Ioway name I had overlooked. Caromonga. He is mentioned insome council meetings during the 1840s. I notice the end of the name- monga -appears in other names too. Greg -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu . listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu . listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu . listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu . listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu . listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. ?? -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. ?? -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Lori A. Stanley Professor of Anthropology Luther College 700 College Drive Decorah, Iowa 52101 563-387-1283 -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 16156 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 6231 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Autobiography of Rev. William Hamilton.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 711817 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM Fri Jul 25 02:25:09 2014 From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm G. GoodTracks) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2014 21:25:09 -0500 Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga In-Reply-To: <002201cfa79c$40434180$c0c9c480$@com> Message-ID: Thanks Sky! Great read that fills in and colors some of the early day life and scenes in the life of the people. From: Sky Campbell Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 7:06 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga Thanks for the idea but unfortunately I already have that. It isn't his journal but instead Hamilton was asked to write an autobiography. This autobiography is great reading and is in the form of a letter but unfortunately it isn't his journal :(. I'll attach it to this email just in case someone is interested. Jimm, I believe you've seen this before but if not, happy reading! :) Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Lori Stanley Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 3:12 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga Sky, Here is the reference for the published version of Hamilton's journal: Hamilton, William 1885 Autobiography of Reverend William Hamilton. Transactions and Reports of the Nebraska State Historical Society 1:60-75. I'm sure I have a copy and could send you a PDF, but I'm out of town for a few days. Let me know if you get hold of it. If not, I'll send it when I get back. Lori On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 2:19 PM, Campbell, Sky wrote: Those names are listed with "manyi" in other sources. For example, Catlin has "Neu-mon-ya" and "Wash-ka-mon-ya" where that "manyi" can (usually) refer to "walk" or "always". Ioway treaties has spellings like "Washcommanee" and "Ne-o-mon-ni". What I'm thinking is that perhaps the "monga" came from looking a poor copies of old documents and that those "g" characters are most likely "y" characters. These characters are handwritten and it only takes one little movement to "close up" a "y" at the top and make it look like a "g". I've seen "Niyu Manyi" translated as walking rain, moving rain, and always raining. I tend to lean towards that last one. The name "Washka Manyi" as been translated as great walker, great marcher, and fast dancer so that one is a little tougher. I can see how "washka" could maybe be a mash-up of "washi" (dance) and "k?tha" (fast). But when I decided to hit up a Ponca friend about his name "Washka" (that's his legal name, not just his "Indian name"), I found out the full form of his name is "Washka Mathi" which he translated as "Stands Strong." I know that "mathi" in Ponca/Omaha is a cognate to the Otoe-Ioway "manyi" and also that Otoes and Ioways had the form "mathi" a long time ago. So that got me to thinking that perhaps this Ioway individual might have roughly the same name as my Ponca friend (cognate forms notwithstanding). The only trouble with that theory is that I've never seen a term "washka" to mean "strong" like it does in Ponca. Dorsey shows the Jiwere cognate to "washka" as "brixe" (which is the term I am familiar with). So is this one of those instances where Otoe-Ioway had more in common with Dhegiha almost 200 years ago and "washka" was used to mean "strong" (or a similiar idea) but no longer does? It would seem likely since some of those translations for that name have the word "great" in them along with walker or marcher. Strong walker/strong marcher perhaps? But without more information, this is just yet another thing for me to keep in the back of my mind until I find that bit of information that helps clear it up. May that day come soon! Sky Campbell Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2014 1:15 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga Sky, do we know what ?monga? means in the other names, Washkamonga and Neumonga? Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2014 9:28 AM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga Greg was gracious enough to let me see the copies he was drawing from and sure enough, it looks like "monga" in the name. But what I found interesting in that document was other familiar names...Washkamonga and Neumonga which we've seen elsewhere with the "monga" portion spelled with an "ny" instead of an "ng". I also looked at the 1842 Ioway census and found "Caromonga" but instead it was spelled "Caramonya". I did a quick Google search for "Caramonya" and got a couple hits on some books that had excerpts from Hamilton's journal. He describes "Caramonya" as "an old Indian who often visits us." Unfortunately he doesn't translate the name. My first reaction was to think that perhaps Hamilton might be using his own orthography that he used in his books but the rest of the spelling doesn't bear that out. I'd love to see more of Hamilton's journal to see if there are any clues in there. Anyone know where I could get a hold of such a thing? So it looks like that ending may actually be "manyi" (but perhaps not for the "ng/ny swap" that I suggested but maybe just a handwriting issue). And it looks like both versions were written by the same person (there is the same flourish on the capital "C" in both versions of the name). Council meeting image: Ioway census image: So if it is "Cara-" instead of "Caro-", then that can open up more possibilities perhaps. But I'm still only coming up with ket?, kera and giro as my top suggestions for now. Sky Campbell Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2014 9:35 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga Importance: Low Well, going on what Jill says, the closet thing I can find is: ?ed?na?e; ?ed?na?a adv/prn. that distant curvilinear object yonder; that distant land in sight. However, I'm not comfortable that it is a good fit for "Carominga." I don't know if the original notation was from a French or English document, and as such, cannot know to consider the phonetic value of the "C." But going with the possibility of it being "K?" as in "K?tan" (turtle), we have: k?tan; ket?nha; keton^a (SKN); qetan (DOR) n. turtle. k?tan x?ha n. turtle shell. K?tan w??i p? a???e ke, It is said that turtle meat is good. k?gr?dhei?e; k?gr?dhei?e spotted (or) sand turtle kehtonha (SKN) snapping turtle; snapper k?marax^?n; kem?rax^in (LWR) snapping turtle k? m?rax^in ?wrinkled turtle? mud turtle ket?nna (LWR) snapping turtle; snapper But you see, the best contender is for: k?ra adj. clear (sky). Clear Day; Clear Sky Appears (a personal Buffalo Clan name) n. K?ra T?n^in; K^?ra T?n^in. **SEE: gith?je; clear. Also, thinking about the breakup of syllables as Justin suggest, there could be a connect with: rominj? n. island. Rominj?^i?e(mi); Rom?nchi?e; Ir?mi?h?ji; J?rominje; Romijii?emi (DOR); r?mits? (MAX) (a personal Buffalo Clan and Beaver Clan name) Little Island. Romihingu ~ Romihi?u (SKN); Romijii?emi (DOR) (a personal Pigeon Clan name) Island. And there was maybe the "g" is really a "j" which gives only one unlikely possibility: m?nje (?)(LWR); masj? adj/v.i. hot, warm (weather). With the above, one could squeeze out a "Turtle Island," but, this possibility is not convincing to me. SO THEN, in appreciation to everyone's input, I have arrived full circle to my original conjecture that the name that most likely fits the documented transcription is: K?raM?nge (Clearing Day All About~ Prevailing). In this case, the "m?nge" (sitting) is used in the sense of a positional verb, saying that the clearing of the sky, was extensive over a wide area such might be view on the breathe of the open plains. Further, such a rendering would be consistant to similar clan names. I suggest one possibilty for Grey in working with his narrative is to include with the composed name, the original transcription, such as, "K?raM?nge (Clearing Day All About) [Carminga (Document Source citations)]. Unless, new evidence appears, or further information, this is the best that can be made of that name. H?nhe Pi, Good Night, Buenas Noches! From: Greer, Jill Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2014 6:22 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Carominga Justin and Sky - You guys with your programming talents- impressive! Just one question for Jimm and Greg - if the original person who transcribed the name was French (or a mixed blood literate in French- as was common around St. Joseph), the first syllabie "Ca" could even be /Sa/ or /se/ rather than Key, n'est pas? I hate to muddy the waters, but all it takes is one person to miss the cedilla and we've switched the sound totally. These old names are so slippery, but fascinating! Best, Jill On Jul 18, 2014, at 8:17 PM, "Mcbride, Justin" wrote: When you showed me that program last year, Sky, I remember thinking, "Now, THIS is awesome!" As a guy who, for years, was asked questions like, "What's my Granddad's name mean?" on a weekly basis, only to be handed a string of indecipherable 'ah's, 'eh's, and hyphens with a few consonants mixed in for good measure, I would have relished the opportunity to see a list the possible permutations presented at once. Now, if you could just build in some phonotactic constraint logic and SQL interaction with some sort of lexical database to provide suggestions--you know, the easy stuff--you'd have the proverbial better mousetrap! :) Ah, it's fun to dream! By the way, the name Kke Leze was the name of one of the last living male L1 Ks speakers. -jtm On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 7:34 PM, Sky Campbell wrote: Justin, I thought of that too (and even thought of turtle LOL...ke for ket?) but nothing came to mind for the rest. We have a precedent for this which is a name listed as "Ke Gre?e" (Prairie Turtle/Spotted Turtle). I seem to remember one or two more but can't think of them off the top of my head. And thanks for pointing out the "g" possibly being the "j" sound. That is usually one of the first things I consider but it totally slipped my mind. Man, I really, REALLY need to finish my "character/morpheme swap" program for situations like this. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mcbride, Justin Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 5:46 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Carominga Howdy, Jimm, I wonder about the division of syllables into Caro and Monga. Is it possible that it could be Ca Romonga? I ask becasue, if it were a Kaw name, I'd think it might have something to do with kke, 'turtle,' which I'm pretty sure I've seen spelled as Ca in names before. I would also look at the r as representing either Ks y or l, and -ga part at the end (if it's not been switched, as Sky suggests, which I think is probable) as possibly representing like the Ks syllable j^e, which seems to happen fairly frequently in the names I've looked at. In short, I would expect something like kke yaNmaNj^e, which doesn't ring any bells at all in Ks. Now, I don't know much at all about IOM, lexically or phonologically--maybe this makes even less sense in IOM--but thought I just might throw that out there as food for thought. All the best, -Justin On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Sky Campbell wrote: The "caro" portion has me thinking of a few possibilities: kera (as you pointed out) giro (happy) The "monga" has me thinking of: mange (lying down) mange (chest) womanke (easy) <-- perhaps unlikely m?nka (medicine) <-- seems the most unlikely but I thought I'd throw it in there Last is a "theory" that I have that perhaps somehow, some way, "monga" might be a form of "manyi/manye". Considering how many examples of "ng" and "ny" being swapped out (sunge/sunye, -inge/-inye, etc.), I wonder if perhaps it might be a version of "manyi". Especially since that word is used in so many names already and your friend noted that it appears in other names as well. This is just speculation, of course. Speaking of which, if they could provide examples of other names that use "monga", it might help us figure it out. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 9:25 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Fw: Carominga Does anyone have some thoughts to decipher the name: "Caromonga." The last part appears to be "mange" (be in sitting position). The first could be "kera" (cleared sky). From: Greg Olson Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 4:48 PM To: Jimm GoodTracks Subject: Carominga Jimm, while proofing my manuscript, I came across an Ioway name I had overlooked. Caromonga. He is mentioned insome council meetings during the 1840s. I notice the end of the name- monga -appears in other names too. Greg -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. ?? -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. ?? -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Lori A. Stanley Professor of Anthropology Luther College 700 College Drive Decorah, Iowa 52101 563-387-1283 -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 16156 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 6231 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stanleyl at LUTHER.EDU Fri Jul 25 05:48:38 2014 From: stanleyl at LUTHER.EDU (Lori Stanley) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2014 00:48:38 -0500 Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sky, After I sent the previous email it occurred to me that the 1885 autobiography was probably not what you were looking for, but I wasn't able to check the document for a reference to "Caramonya" since I don't have access to my files right now. You cleared up that question with your last email. An online search has reminded me that Hamilton's original journal is in the Lewis Henry Morgan archives, and I'm pretty sure I have a copy of it. In fact, the line about "Caramonya," the "old Indian who often visits us," sounds very familiar. I'll check on this when I get back to Decorah in a few days. Lori On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 9:25 PM, Jimm G. GoodTracks wrote: > Thanks Sky! Great read that fills in and colors some of the early day > life and scenes in the life of the people. > > *From:* Sky Campbell > *Sent:* Thursday, July 24, 2014 7:06 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga > > Thanks for the idea but unfortunately I already have that. It isn't his > journal but instead Hamilton was asked to write an autobiography. This > autobiography is great reading and is in the form of a letter but > unfortunately it isn't his journal :(. > > > > I'll attach it to this email just in case someone is interested. Jimm, I > believe you've seen this before but if not, happy reading! :) > > > > Sky > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of > *Lori Stanley > *Sent:* Thursday, July 24, 2014 3:12 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga > > > > Sky, > Here is the reference for the published version of Hamilton's journal: > > Hamilton, William > > 1885 Autobiography of Reverend William Hamilton. *Transactions and > Reports of the Nebraska State Historical Society* 1:60-75. > > > > I'm sure I have a copy and could send you a PDF, but I'm out of town for a > few days. Let me know if you get hold of it. If not, I'll send it when I > get back. > > > > Lori > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 2:19 PM, Campbell, Sky wrote: > > Those names are listed with "manyi" in other sources. For example, Catlin > has "Neu-mon-ya" and "Wash-ka-mon-ya" where that "manyi" can (usually) > refer to "walk" or "always". Ioway treaties has spellings like > "Washcommanee" and "Ne-o-mon-ni". What I'm thinking is that perhaps the > "monga" came from looking a poor copies of old documents and that those "g" > characters are most likely "y" characters. These characters are > handwritten and it only takes one little movement to "close up" a "y" at > the top and make it look like a "g". > > > > I've seen "Niyu Manyi" translated as walking rain, moving rain, and always > raining. I tend to lean towards that last one. > > > > The name "Washka Manyi" as been translated as great walker, great marcher, > and fast dancer so that one is a little tougher. I can see how "washka" > could maybe be a mash-up of "washi" (dance) and "k?tha" (fast). But when I > decided to hit up a Ponca friend about his name "Washka" (that's his legal > name, not just his "Indian name"), I found out the full form of his name is > "Washka Mathi" which he translated as "Stands Strong." I know that "mathi" > in Ponca/Omaha is a cognate to the Otoe-Ioway "manyi" and also that Otoes > and Ioways had the form "mathi" a long time ago. So that got me to > thinking that perhaps this Ioway individual might have roughly the same > name as my Ponca friend (cognate forms notwithstanding). The only trouble > with that theory is that I've never seen a term "washka" to mean "strong" > like it does in Ponca. Dorsey shows the Jiwere cognate to "washka" as > "brixe" (which is the term I am familiar with). So is this one of those > instances where Otoe-Ioway had more in common with Dhegiha almost 200 years > ago and "washka" was used to mean "strong" (or a similiar idea) but no > longer does? It would seem likely since some of those translations for > that name have the word "great" in them along with walker or marcher. > Strong walker/strong marcher perhaps? But without more information, this > is just yet another thing for me to keep in the back of my mind until I > find that bit of information that helps clear it up. May that day come > soon! > > > > *Sky Campbell* > > Language Director > > Otoe-Missouria Tribe > > (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 <%28580%29%20723-4466%2C%20ext.%20111> > > sky at omtribe.org > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of > *Rory Larson > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 23, 2014 1:15 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga > > > > Sky, do we know what ?monga? means in the other names, Washkamonga and > Neumonga? > > > > Best, > > Rory > > > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > ] *On Behalf Of *Campbell, Sky > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 23, 2014 9:28 AM > *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU > *Subject:* Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga > > > > Greg was gracious enough to let me see the copies he was drawing from and > sure enough, it looks like "monga" in the name. But what I found > interesting in that document was other familiar names...Washkamonga and > Neumonga which we've seen elsewhere with the "monga" portion spelled with > an "ny" instead of an "ng". I also looked at the 1842 Ioway census and > found "Caromonga" but instead it was spelled "Caramonya". I did a quick > Google search for "Caramonya" and got a couple hits on some books that had > excerpts from Hamilton's journal. He describes "Caramonya" as "an old > Indian who often visits us." Unfortunately he doesn't translate the name. > My first reaction was to think that perhaps Hamilton might be using his own > orthography that he used in his books but the rest of the spelling doesn't > bear that out. I'd love to see more of Hamilton's journal to see if there > are any clues in there. Anyone know where I could get a hold of such a > thing? > > > > So it looks like that ending may actually be "manyi" (but perhaps not for > the "ng/ny swap" that I suggested but maybe just a handwriting issue). And > it looks like both versions were written by the same person (there is the > same flourish on the capital "C" in both versions of the name). > > > > Council meeting image: > > [image: Caromonga.jpg] > > > > Ioway census image: > > [image: Caramonya.jpg] > > > > So if it is "Cara-" instead of "Caro-", then that can open up more > possibilities perhaps. But I'm still only coming up with ket?, kera and > giro as my top suggestions for now. > > > > *Sky Campbell* > > Language Director > > Otoe-Missouria Tribe > > (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 <%28580%29%20723-4466%2C%20ext.%20111> > > sky at omtribe.org > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > ] *On Behalf Of *Jimm G. GoodTracks > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 22, 2014 9:35 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga > *Importance:* Low > > > > Well, going on what Jill says, the closet thing I can find is: *?ed?na?e; > ?ed?na?a** adv/prn. *that distant curvilinear object yonder; that > distant land in sight. However, I'm not comfortable that it is a good > fit for "Carominga." I don't know if the original notation was from a > French or English document, and as such, cannot know to consider the > phonetic value of the "C." > > > > But going with the possibility of it being "K?" as in "K?tan" (turtle), we > have: > > *k?tan; ket?nha;* keton^a (SKN); qetan (DOR)* n. *turtle. *k?tan x?ha** > n. *turtle shell. *K?tan* w??i p? a???e ke, It is said that *turtle* > meat is good. > > *k?gr?dhei?e; k?gr?dhei?e* spotted (or) sand turtle > > *kehtonha* (SKN) snapping turtle; snapper > > *k?marax^?n; kem?rax^in* (LWR) snapping turtle > > *k? m?rax^in* ?wrinkled turtle? mud turtle > > *ket?nna* (LWR) snapping turtle; snapper > > > > But you see, the best contender is for: > > * k?ra** adj. *clear (*sky*). *Clear Day;* *Clear Sky > Appears* (*a personal Buffalo Clan name*)* n. *K?ra T?n^in; K^?ra T?n^i > n. ***SEE*: *gith?je; clear.* > > > > Also, thinking about the breakup of syllables as Justin suggest, there > could be a connect with: > > *rominj?** n. *island. *Rominj?^i?e(mi); Rom?nchi?e; > Ir?mi?h?ji; J?rominje;* Romijii?emi (DOR); r?mits? (MAX) (*a personal > Buffalo Clan and Beaver Clan name*) Little Island. *Romihingu ~ > Romihi?u* (SKN)*;* Romijii?emi (DOR) (*a personal Pigeon Clan name*) > Island. > > And there was maybe the "g" is really a "j" which gives only one unlikely > possibility: > > *m?nje* (?)(LWR)*; masj?** adj/v.i. *hot, warm (*weather*). > > With the above, one could squeeze out a "Turtle Island," but, this > possibility is not convincing to me. > > > > *SO THEN, *in appreciation to everyone's input, I have arrived full > circle to my original conjecture that the name that most likely fits the > documented transcription is: > > > > *K?raM?nge* (Clearing Day All About~ Prevailing). In this case, the > "m?nge" (sitting) is used in the sense of a positional verb, saying that > the clearing of the sky, was extensive over a wide area such might be view > on the breathe of the open plains. Further, such a rendering would be > consistant to similar clan names. > > > > I suggest one possibilty for Grey in working with his narrative is to > include with the composed name, the original transcription, such as, " > *K?raM?nge* (Clearing Day All About) [Carminga (Document Source > citations)]. Unless, new evidence appears, or further information, this > is the best that can be made of that name. > > > > H?nhe Pi, Good Night, Buenas Noches! > > > > > > > > *From:* Greer, Jill > > *Sent:* Saturday, July 19, 2014 6:22 PM > > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > > *Subject:* Re: Carominga > > > > Justin and Sky - > > You guys with your programming talents- impressive! > > > > Just one question for Jimm and Greg - if the original person who > transcribed the name was French (or a mixed blood literate in French- as > was common around St. Joseph), the first syllabie "Ca" could even be /Sa/ > or /se/ rather than Key, n'est pas? I hate to muddy the waters, but all > it takes is one person to miss the cedilla and we've switched the sound > totally. These old names are so slippery, but fascinating! > > > > Best, > > Jill > > > > > > On Jul 18, 2014, at 8:17 PM, "Mcbride, Justin" < > jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU> > > wrote: > > > > When you showed me that program last year, Sky, I remember thinking, "Now, > THIS is awesome!" As a guy who, for years, was asked questions like, > "What's my Granddad's name mean?" on a weekly basis, only to be handed a > string of indecipherable 'ah's, 'eh's, and hyphens with a few consonants > mixed in for good measure, I would have relished the opportunity to see a > list the possible permutations presented at once. Now, if you could just > build in some phonotactic constraint logic and SQL interaction with some > sort of lexical database to provide suggestions--you know, the easy > stuff--you'd have the proverbial better mousetrap! :) Ah, it's fun to > dream! > > > > By the way, the name Kke Leze was the name of one of the last living male > L1 Ks speakers. -jtm > > > > On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 7:34 PM, Sky Campbell > wrote: > > Justin, > > > > I thought of that too (and even thought of turtle LOL...ke for ket?) but > nothing came to mind for the rest. We have a precedent for this which is a > name listed as "Ke Gre?e" (Prairie Turtle/Spotted Turtle). I seem to > remember one or two more but can't think of them off the top of my head. > > > > And thanks for pointing out the "g" possibly being the "j" sound. That is > usually one of the first things I consider but it totally slipped my mind. > Man, I really, REALLY need to finish my "character/morpheme swap" program > for situations like this. > > > > Sky > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of > *Mcbride, Justin > *Sent:* Friday, July 18, 2014 5:46 PM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Re: Carominga > > > > Howdy, Jimm, > > > > I wonder about the division of syllables into Caro and Monga. Is it > possible that it could be Ca Romonga? I ask becasue, if it were a Kaw name, > I'd think it might have something to do with kke, 'turtle,' which I'm > pretty sure I've seen spelled as Ca in names before. I would also look at > the r as representing either Ks y or l, and -ga part at the end (if it's > not been switched, as Sky suggests, which I think is probable) as possibly > representing like the Ks syllable j^e, which seems to happen fairly > frequently in the names I've looked at. In short, I would expect something > like kke yaNmaNj^e, which doesn't ring any bells at all in Ks. Now, I don't > know much at all about IOM, lexically or phonologically--maybe this makes > even less sense in IOM--but thought I just might throw that out there as > food for thought. > > > > All the best, > > -Justin > > > > On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Sky Campbell > wrote: > > The "caro" portion has me thinking of a few possibilities: > > > > kera (as you pointed out) > > giro (happy) > > > > The "monga" has me thinking of: > > > > mange (lying down) > > mange (chest) > > womanke (easy) <-- perhaps unlikely > > m?nka (medicine) <-- seems the most unlikely but I thought I'd throw it in > there > > > > Last is a "theory" that I have that perhaps somehow, some way, "monga" > might be a form of "manyi/manye". Considering how many examples of "ng" > and "ny" being swapped out (sunge/sunye, -inge/-inye, etc.), I wonder if > perhaps it might be a version of "manyi". Especially since that word is > used in so many names already and your friend noted that it appears in > other names as well. This is just speculation, of course. Speaking of > which, if they could provide examples of other names that use "monga", it > might help us figure it out. > > > > Sky > > > > *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of > *Jimm G. GoodTracks > *Sent:* Friday, July 18, 2014 9:25 AM > *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > *Subject:* Fw: Carominga > > > > Does anyone have some thoughts to decipher the name: "Caromonga." The > last part appears to be "mange" (be in sitting position). The first could > be "kera" (cleared sky). > > > > > > *From:* Greg Olson > > *Sent:* Friday, July 11, 2014 4:48 PM > > *To:* Jimm GoodTracks > > *Subject:* Carominga > > > > Jimm, while proofing my manuscript, I came across an Ioway name I had > overlooked. Caromonga. He is mentioned insome council meetings during the > 1840s. I notice the end of the name- monga -appears in other names too. > > > > Greg > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. > > > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. > > > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. > > > > > > This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject > to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for > the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended > recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of > the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by > law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please > notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your > subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not > accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier > DMARC policies. > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. > > > ?? > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. > > > ?? > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. > > > > > -- > Lori A. Stanley > Professor of Anthropology > Luther College > 700 College Drive > Decorah, Iowa 52101 > 563-387-1283 > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu > lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com > due to thier DMARC policies. > -- Lori A. Stanley Professor of Anthropology Luther College 700 College Drive Decorah, Iowa 52101 563-387-1283 -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 6231 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 16156 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG Fri Jul 25 13:27:07 2014 From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2014 08:27:07 -0500 Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Wow, thank you! I've been over Hamilton and Irvin's material up one side and down the other approximately 345,681,130 times and each time I do, I learn and understand more. We've already transcribed their books (makes it SUPER easy to do a quick search for something!) and are in the process of transliterating them. They paid so much attention to detail in those books that I'm hoping that his journal is the same way and that there is some good language information floating around in there. I'll attach a PDF of the extracts from Hamilton's journal with the mention of "Caramonya". It is on the second page (page 372) under the section of "Superstition of the Indians - Otter Dance". It is a neat little blurb about how Hamilton shot a "weasel" and that Caramonya wished he hadn't shot it because if he hadn't, he could have taken the skin and made a shirt that would make him impervious to bullets. He said if he made the shirt of one that had been shot, he'd be killed and that it needed to be choked to death instead. What I hope for is more names mentioned (Hopefully with translations...Merrill has quite a few names in his diary but not translations. I've been able to figure most of them out but there are a few that still throw me for a loop) and anything else to do with language. In the autobiography I sent last night, Hamilton mentions how the Missourias speak in a peculiar way because they were still getting used to Otoe and he also gave his own interpretation for "Wak?nda". So it is those kinds of things that I'm after. Again, thank you! Sky Campbell Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Lori Stanley Sent: Friday, July 25, 2014 12:49 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga Importance: Low Sky, After I sent the previous email it occurred to me that the 1885 autobiography was probably not what you were looking for, but I wasn't able to check the document for a reference to "Caramonya" since I don't have access to my files right now. You cleared up that question with your last email. An online search has reminded me that Hamilton's original journal is in the Lewis Henry Morgan archives, and I'm pretty sure I have a copy of it. In fact, the line about "Caramonya," the "old Indian who often visits us," sounds very familiar. I'll check on this when I get back to Decorah in a few days. Lori On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 9:25 PM, Jimm G. GoodTracks > wrote: Thanks Sky! Great read that fills in and colors some of the early day life and scenes in the life of the people. From: Sky Campbell Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 7:06 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga Thanks for the idea but unfortunately I already have that. It isn't his journal but instead Hamilton was asked to write an autobiography. This autobiography is great reading and is in the form of a letter but unfortunately it isn't his journal :(. I'll attach it to this email just in case someone is interested. Jimm, I believe you've seen this before but if not, happy reading! :) Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Lori Stanley Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 3:12 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga Sky, Here is the reference for the published version of Hamilton's journal: Hamilton, William 1885 Autobiography of Reverend William Hamilton. Transactions and Reports of the Nebraska State Historical Society 1:60-75. I'm sure I have a copy and could send you a PDF, but I'm out of town for a few days. Let me know if you get hold of it. If not, I'll send it when I get back. Lori On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 2:19 PM, Campbell, Sky > wrote: Those names are listed with "manyi" in other sources. For example, Catlin has "Neu-mon-ya" and "Wash-ka-mon-ya" where that "manyi" can (usually) refer to "walk" or "always". Ioway treaties has spellings like "Washcommanee" and "Ne-o-mon-ni". What I'm thinking is that perhaps the "monga" came from looking a poor copies of old documents and that those "g" characters are most likely "y" characters. These characters are handwritten and it only takes one little movement to "close up" a "y" at the top and make it look like a "g". I've seen "Niyu Manyi" translated as walking rain, moving rain, and always raining. I tend to lean towards that last one. The name "Washka Manyi" as been translated as great walker, great marcher, and fast dancer so that one is a little tougher. I can see how "washka" could maybe be a mash-up of "washi" (dance) and "k?tha" (fast). But when I decided to hit up a Ponca friend about his name "Washka" (that's his legal name, not just his "Indian name"), I found out the full form of his name is "Washka Mathi" which he translated as "Stands Strong." I know that "mathi" in Ponca/Omaha is a cognate to the Otoe-Ioway "manyi" and also that Otoes and Ioways had the form "mathi" a long time ago. So that got me to thinking that perhaps this Ioway individual might have roughly the same name as my Ponca friend (cognate forms notwithstanding). The only trouble with that theory is that I've never seen a term "washka" to mean "strong" like it does in Ponca. Dorsey shows the Jiwere cognate to "washka" as "brixe" (which is the term I am familiar with). So is this one of those instances where Otoe-Ioway had more in common with Dhegiha almost 200 years ago and "washka" was used to mean "strong" (or a similiar idea) but no longer does? It would seem likely since some of those translations for that name have the word "great" in them along with walker or marcher. Strong walker/strong marcher perhaps? But without more information, this is just yet another thing for me to keep in the back of my mind until I find that bit of information that helps clear it up. May that day come soon! Sky Campbell Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2014 1:15 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga Sky, do we know what ?monga? means in the other names, Washkamonga and Neumonga? Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2014 9:28 AM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga Greg was gracious enough to let me see the copies he was drawing from and sure enough, it looks like "monga" in the name. But what I found interesting in that document was other familiar names...Washkamonga and Neumonga which we've seen elsewhere with the "monga" portion spelled with an "ny" instead of an "ng". I also looked at the 1842 Ioway census and found "Caromonga" but instead it was spelled "Caramonya". I did a quick Google search for "Caramonya" and got a couple hits on some books that had excerpts from Hamilton's journal. He describes "Caramonya" as "an old Indian who often visits us." Unfortunately he doesn't translate the name. My first reaction was to think that perhaps Hamilton might be using his own orthography that he used in his books but the rest of the spelling doesn't bear that out. I'd love to see more of Hamilton's journal to see if there are any clues in there. Anyone know where I could get a hold of such a thing? So it looks like that ending may actually be "manyi" (but perhaps not for the "ng/ny swap" that I suggested but maybe just a handwriting issue). And it looks like both versions were written by the same person (there is the same flourish on the capital "C" in both versions of the name). Council meeting image: [cid:image001.jpg at 01CFA7E0.11AAE8C0] Ioway census image: [cid:image002.jpg at 01CFA7E0.11AAE8C0] So if it is "Cara-" instead of "Caro-", then that can open up more possibilities perhaps. But I'm still only coming up with ket?, kera and giro as my top suggestions for now. Sky Campbell Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2014 9:35 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga Importance: Low Well, going on what Jill says, the closet thing I can find is: ?ed?na?e; ?ed?na?a adv/prn. that distant curvilinear object yonder; that distant land in sight. However, I'm not comfortable that it is a good fit for "Carominga." I don't know if the original notation was from a French or English document, and as such, cannot know to consider the phonetic value of the "C." But going with the possibility of it being "K?" as in "K?tan" (turtle), we have: k?tan; ket?nha; keton^a (SKN); qetan (DOR) n. turtle. k?tan x?ha n. turtle shell. K?tan w??i p? a???e ke, It is said that turtle meat is good. k?gr?dhei?e; k?gr?dhei?e spotted (or) sand turtle kehtonha (SKN) snapping turtle; snapper k?marax^?n; kem?rax^in (LWR) snapping turtle k? m?rax^in ?wrinkled turtle? mud turtle ket?nna (LWR) snapping turtle; snapper But you see, the best contender is for: k?ra adj. clear (sky). Clear Day; Clear Sky Appears (a personal Buffalo Clan name) n. K?ra T?n^in; K^?ra T?n^in. **SEE: gith?je; clear. Also, thinking about the breakup of syllables as Justin suggest, there could be a connect with: rominj? n. island. Rominj?^i?e(mi); Rom?nchi?e; Ir?mi?h?ji; J?rominje; Romijii?emi (DOR); r?mits? (MAX) (a personal Buffalo Clan and Beaver Clan name) Little Island. Romihingu ~ Romihi?u (SKN); Romijii?emi (DOR) (a personal Pigeon Clan name) Island. And there was maybe the "g" is really a "j" which gives only one unlikely possibility: m?nje (?)(LWR); masj? adj/v.i. hot, warm (weather). With the above, one could squeeze out a "Turtle Island," but, this possibility is not convincing to me. SO THEN, in appreciation to everyone's input, I have arrived full circle to my original conjecture that the name that most likely fits the documented transcription is: K?raM?nge (Clearing Day All About~ Prevailing). In this case, the "m?nge" (sitting) is used in the sense of a positional verb, saying that the clearing of the sky, was extensive over a wide area such might be view on the breathe of the open plains. Further, such a rendering would be consistant to similar clan names. I suggest one possibilty for Grey in working with his narrative is to include with the composed name, the original transcription, such as, "K?raM?nge (Clearing Day All About) [Carminga (Document Source citations)]. Unless, new evidence appears, or further information, this is the best that can be made of that name. H?nhe Pi, Good Night, Buenas Noches! From: Greer, Jill Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2014 6:22 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Carominga Justin and Sky - You guys with your programming talents- impressive! Just one question for Jimm and Greg - if the original person who transcribed the name was French (or a mixed blood literate in French- as was common around St. Joseph), the first syllabie "Ca" could even be /Sa/ or /se/ rather than Key, n'est pas? I hate to muddy the waters, but all it takes is one person to miss the cedilla and we've switched the sound totally. These old names are so slippery, but fascinating! Best, Jill On Jul 18, 2014, at 8:17 PM, "Mcbride, Justin" > wrote: When you showed me that program last year, Sky, I remember thinking, "Now, THIS is awesome!" As a guy who, for years, was asked questions like, "What's my Granddad's name mean?" on a weekly basis, only to be handed a string of indecipherable 'ah's, 'eh's, and hyphens with a few consonants mixed in for good measure, I would have relished the opportunity to see a list the possible permutations presented at once. Now, if you could just build in some phonotactic constraint logic and SQL interaction with some sort of lexical database to provide suggestions--you know, the easy stuff--you'd have the proverbial better mousetrap! :) Ah, it's fun to dream! By the way, the name Kke Leze was the name of one of the last living male L1 Ks speakers. -jtm On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 7:34 PM, Sky Campbell > wrote: Justin, I thought of that too (and even thought of turtle LOL...ke for ket?) but nothing came to mind for the rest. We have a precedent for this which is a name listed as "Ke Gre?e" (Prairie Turtle/Spotted Turtle). I seem to remember one or two more but can't think of them off the top of my head. And thanks for pointing out the "g" possibly being the "j" sound. That is usually one of the first things I consider but it totally slipped my mind. Man, I really, REALLY need to finish my "character/morpheme swap" program for situations like this. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mcbride, Justin Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 5:46 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Carominga Howdy, Jimm, I wonder about the division of syllables into Caro and Monga. Is it possible that it could be Ca Romonga? I ask becasue, if it were a Kaw name, I'd think it might have something to do with kke, 'turtle,' which I'm pretty sure I've seen spelled as Ca in names before. I would also look at the r as representing either Ks y or l, and -ga part at the end (if it's not been switched, as Sky suggests, which I think is probable) as possibly representing like the Ks syllable j^e, which seems to happen fairly frequently in the names I've looked at. In short, I would expect something like kke yaNmaNj^e, which doesn't ring any bells at all in Ks. Now, I don't know much at all about IOM, lexically or phonologically--maybe this makes even less sense in IOM--but thought I just might throw that out there as food for thought. All the best, -Justin On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Sky Campbell > wrote: The "caro" portion has me thinking of a few possibilities: kera (as you pointed out) giro (happy) The "monga" has me thinking of: mange (lying down) mange (chest) womanke (easy) <-- perhaps unlikely m?nka (medicine) <-- seems the most unlikely but I thought I'd throw it in there Last is a "theory" that I have that perhaps somehow, some way, "monga" might be a form of "manyi/manye". Considering how many examples of "ng" and "ny" being swapped out (sunge/sunye, -inge/-inye, etc.), I wonder if perhaps it might be a version of "manyi". Especially since that word is used in so many names already and your friend noted that it appears in other names as well. This is just speculation, of course. Speaking of which, if they could provide examples of other names that use "monga", it might help us figure it out. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 9:25 AM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Fw: Carominga Does anyone have some thoughts to decipher the name: "Caromonga." The last part appears to be "mange" (be in sitting position). The first could be "kera" (cleared sky). From: Greg Olson Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 4:48 PM To: Jimm GoodTracks Subject: Carominga Jimm, while proofing my manuscript, I came across an Ioway name I had overlooked. Caromonga. He is mentioned insome council meetings during the 1840s. I notice the end of the name- monga -appears in other names too. Greg -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. This email may contain identifiable personal information that is subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be punishable by law. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail (reply). -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. ?? -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. ?? -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Lori A. Stanley Professor of Anthropology Luther College 700 College Drive Decorah, Iowa 52101 563-387-1283 -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Lori A. Stanley Professor of Anthropology Luther College 700 College Drive Decorah, Iowa 52101 563-387-1283 -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 16156 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 6231 bytes Desc: image002.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Extracts from the Journal of the Rev. W. 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