[Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga
Campbell, Sky
sky at OMTRIBE.ORG
Wed Jul 23 14:27:46 UTC 2014
Greg was gracious enough to let me see the copies he was drawing from and sure enough, it looks like "monga" in the name. But what I found interesting in that document was other familiar names...Washkamonga and Neumonga which we've seen elsewhere with the "monga" portion spelled with an "ny" instead of an "ng". I also looked at the 1842 Ioway census and found "Caromonga" but instead it was spelled "Caramonya". I did a quick Google search for "Caramonya" and got a couple hits on some books that had excerpts from Hamilton's journal. He describes "Caramonya" as "an old Indian who often visits us." Unfortunately he doesn't translate the name. My first reaction was to think that perhaps Hamilton might be using his own orthography that he used in his books but the rest of the spelling doesn't bear that out. I'd love to see more of Hamilton's journal to see if there are any clues in there. Anyone know where I could get a hold of such a thing?
So it looks like that ending may actually be "manyi" (but perhaps not for the "ng/ny swap" that I suggested but maybe just a handwriting issue). And it looks like both versions were written by the same person (there is the same flourish on the capital "C" in both versions of the name).
Council meeting image:
[cid:image005.jpg at 01CFA658.5CE491D0]
Ioway census image:
[cid:image006.jpg at 01CFA658.5CE491D0]
So if it is "Cara-" instead of "Caro-", then that can open up more possibilities perhaps. But I'm still only coming up with ketą, kera and giro as my top suggestions for now.
Sky Campbell
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
(580) 723-4466, ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org
From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2014 9:35 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga
Importance: Low
Well, going on what Jill says, the closet thing I can find is: šedánaŋe; šedánaŋa adv/prn. that distant curvilinear object yonder; that distant land in sight. However, I'm not comfortable that it is a good fit for "Carominga." I don't know if the original notation was from a French or English document, and as such, cannot know to consider the phonetic value of the "C."
But going with the possibility of it being "Ké" as in "Kétan" (turtle), we have:
kétan; ketúnha; keton^a (SKN); qetan (DOR) n. turtle. kétan xúha n. turtle shell. Kétan wáñi pí añáñe ke, It is said that turtle meat is good.
kégrédheiñe; kégrédheiŋe spotted (or) sand turtle
kehtonha (SKN) snapping turtle; snapper
kémarax^ín; kemárax^in (LWR) snapping turtle
ké márax^in “wrinkled turtle” mud turtle
ketánna (LWR) snapping turtle; snapper
But you see, the best contender is for:
kéra adj. clear (sky). Clear Day; Clear Sky Appears (a personal Buffalo Clan name) n. Kéra Tán^in; K^éra Tán^in. **SEE: githóje; clear.
Also, thinking about the breakup of syllables as Justin suggest, there could be a connect with:
rominjí n. island. Rominjí^iŋe(mi); Romínchiŋe; Irómiŋhšji; Jérominje; Romijiiŋemi (DOR); rúmitsí (MAX) (a personal Buffalo Clan and Beaver Clan name) Little Island. Romihingu ~ Romihiŋu (SKN); Romijiiŋemi (DOR) (a personal Pigeon Clan name) Island.
And there was maybe the "g" is really a "j" which gives only one unlikely possibility:
mánje (?)(LWR); masjé adj/v.i. hot, warm (weather).
With the above, one could squeeze out a "Turtle Island," but, this possibility is not convincing to me.
SO THEN, in appreciation to everyone's input, I have arrived full circle to my original conjecture that the name that most likely fits the documented transcription is:
KéraMánge (Clearing Day All About~ Prevailing). In this case, the "mánge" (sitting) is used in the sense of a positional verb, saying that the clearing of the sky, was extensive over a wide area such might be view on the breathe of the open plains. Further, such a rendering would be consistant to similar clan names.
I suggest one possibilty for Grey in working with his narrative is to include with the composed name, the original transcription, such as, "KéraMánge (Clearing Day All About) [Carminga (Document Source citations)]. Unless, new evidence appears, or further information, this is the best that can be made of that name.
Hánhe Pi, Good Night, Buenas Noches!
From: Greer, Jill<mailto:Greer-J at MSSU.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2014 6:22 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Carominga
Justin and Sky -
You guys with your programming talents- impressive!
Just one question for Jimm and Greg - if the original person who transcribed the name was French (or a mixed blood literate in French- as was common around St. Joseph), the first syllabie "Ca" could even be /Sa/ or /se/ rather than Key, n'est pas? I hate to muddy the waters, but all it takes is one person to miss the cedilla and we've switched the sound totally. These old names are so slippery, but fascinating!
Best,
Jill
On Jul 18, 2014, at 8:17 PM, "Mcbride, Justin" <jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU<mailto:jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU>>
wrote:
When you showed me that program last year, Sky, I remember thinking, "Now, THIS is awesome!" As a guy who, for years, was asked questions like, "What's my Granddad's name mean?" on a weekly basis, only to be handed a string of indecipherable 'ah's, 'eh's, and hyphens with a few consonants mixed in for good measure, I would have relished the opportunity to see a list the possible permutations presented at once. Now, if you could just build in some phonotactic constraint logic and SQL interaction with some sort of lexical database to provide suggestions--you know, the easy stuff--you'd have the proverbial better mousetrap! :) Ah, it's fun to dream!
By the way, the name Kke Leze was the name of one of the last living male L1 Ks speakers. -jtm
On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 7:34 PM, Sky Campbell <sky at legendreaders.com<mailto:sky at legendreaders.com>> wrote:
Justin,
I thought of that too (and even thought of turtle LOL...ke for ketą) but nothing came to mind for the rest. We have a precedent for this which is a name listed as "Ke Greðe" (Prairie Turtle/Spotted Turtle). I seem to remember one or two more but can't think of them off the top of my head.
And thanks for pointing out the "g" possibly being the "j" sound. That is usually one of the first things I consider but it totally slipped my mind. Man, I really, REALLY need to finish my "character/morpheme swap" program for situations like this.
Sky
From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>] On Behalf Of Mcbride, Justin
Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 5:46 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Carominga
Howdy, Jimm,
I wonder about the division of syllables into Caro and Monga. Is it possible that it could be Ca Romonga? I ask becasue, if it were a Kaw name, I'd think it might have something to do with kke, 'turtle,' which I'm pretty sure I've seen spelled as Ca in names before. I would also look at the r as representing either Ks y or l, and -ga part at the end (if it's not been switched, as Sky suggests, which I think is probable) as possibly representing like the Ks syllable j^e, which seems to happen fairly frequently in the names I've looked at. In short, I would expect something like kke yaNmaNj^e, which doesn't ring any bells at all in Ks. Now, I don't know much at all about IOM, lexically or phonologically--maybe this makes even less sense in IOM--but thought I just might throw that out there as food for thought.
All the best,
-Justin
On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Sky Campbell <sky at legendreaders.com<mailto:sky at legendreaders.com>> wrote:
The "caro" portion has me thinking of a few possibilities:
kera (as you pointed out)
giro (happy)
The "monga" has me thinking of:
mange (lying down)
mange (chest)
womanke (easy) <-- perhaps unlikely
mąnka (medicine) <-- seems the most unlikely but I thought I'd throw it in there
Last is a "theory" that I have that perhaps somehow, some way, "monga" might be a form of "manyi/manye". Considering how many examples of "ng" and "ny" being swapped out (sunge/sunye, -inge/-inye, etc.), I wonder if perhaps it might be a version of "manyi". Especially since that word is used in so many names already and your friend noted that it appears in other names as well. This is just speculation, of course. Speaking of which, if they could provide examples of other names that use "monga", it might help us figure it out.
Sky
From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks
Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 9:25 AM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Fw: Carominga
Does anyone have some thoughts to decipher the name: "Caromonga." The last part appears to be "mange" (be in sitting position). The first could be "kera" (cleared sky).
From: Greg Olson<mailto:caxelolson at gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 4:48 PM
To: Jimm GoodTracks<mailto:jgoodtracks at gmail.com>
Subject: Carominga
Jimm, while proofing my manuscript, I came across an Ioway name I had overlooked. Caromonga. He is mentioned insome council meetings during the 1840s. I notice the end of the name- monga -appears in other names too.
Greg
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