Number 'nine' in Chiwere.

Sun Mar 30 01:56:43 UTC 2014

Yes, I've seen that.  With all the talk of the possible origin of "sanke" and the tribal member giving me the term "nanye", it has my mind whirring :).

Sky

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Emilia Aigotti
Sent: Friday, March 28, 2014 4:42 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Number 'nine' in Chiwere.

Did you see this entry in the online Chiwere dictionary? It gives some similarities to other Siouan languages. Not sure if this is helpful. Searching my other documents...

šánke; ^sánke (GM); šáŋke (DOR) n. nine. [W. shaatgówi; OmP. shanka; Os. shanka; gdhébdhantsewindhinge; L/D. shakówin; H. sháhpuw; M. kú:pa; T. sa:kom; Of. fáckumi]. 

Emilia Garcia

  _____  

From: "Campbell, Sky" <sky at OMTRIBE.ORG>
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu 
Sent: Friday, March 28, 2014 1:06 PM
Subject: Re: Number 'nine' in Chiwere.

Looking for something else, I came across this information on the number nine.  It was mentioned before that the Siouan languages may have borrowed the term “sanke” from the Algonquian languages (or vice versa).  I found this among Maximilian’s Osage terms:

Nine, grä̇bena – tscheh – uïningkä̇

(the whole run together); i. e.,

ten less one; they also say,

schangká

That got me to thinking about two things.  First, this looks to me like the “grä̇bena – tscheh – uïningkä̇” was the original term for nine and that “shangká” is the interloper.  It makes sense to me that the first version would be the original since it is an actual translation for nine in that language.

Maximilian’s entry for “one” is ”uïnchtschä” and you can see a portion of that in the “tscheh” in the above term.

Ok, that was more of a “hey look at this, you may find it interesting” tidbit of information.  Here is the second thought that struck me.  It is the “uïningkä̇” portion of the term which looks related to the Otoe-Missouria “ninge” which is along the lines of no or none and has even been translated as “have none.”  That definitely fits with Maximilian’s mention of “less one.”  Then that got me to thinking again about the Otoe-Missouria “ninge” which I’ve seen (and heard) as also being pronounced “ninye.”  And then that got me to thinking about the term for nine that was given to me by a tribal member which was “nanye” and now I am wondering if that is a possible variant of ”ninye/ninge” and could be a potential long-lost relic of the original Otoe-Missouria term for nine which could very well have been something along the lines of “ten less one” as well before “sanke” moved in.

Of course I am basing this on me turning my head to the side while looking at it and banking a bit on the similarities between Otoe-Missouria and Osage but this still has drawn my attention and I wanted to get some feedback from you guys to see what you think.

Thoughts?

Sky Campbell, B. A.

Language Director

Otoe-Missouria Tribe

580-723-4466 ext. 111

sky at omtribe.org

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky
Sent: Friday, December 06, 2013 9:47 AM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Number 'nine' in Chiwere.

I wondered if there was a glottal stop in there somewhere.  I see a “k” in Hamilton and Irvin’s books when there would often be a glottal stop.  For example, their list of catechisms which they titled “We-wv-hæ-kju” (Wiwąxesų or Wiwąxe’sų (“(general) questions”)).

What I also find interesting is that Hamilton and Irvin’s publication five years later (1848) (An Ioway Grammar) doesn’t have the “k” with the word for “nine.”

Sky Campbell, B. A.

Language Director

Otoe-Missouria Tribe

580-723-4466 ext. 111

sky at omtribe.org

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L.
Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 4:40 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Number 'nine' in Chiwere.

Sky,

Yes, the initial k- seems to be part of the original term, probably from *ki-.  Down below your comments I have copied the Comparative Dictionary entry for 'nine'.  As you'll see, several of the languages show traces of the ki- or k-.  My Chiwere recordings showed a glottal stop as residue of the k-.  It's interesting that you found citations of the word with the full k-.

Thanks.

Bob

> Ek jdfk (ikshanke) – Wdtwhtl Wdwdklha Tva Eva Wdhonetl (1834) by Merrill 

> Merrill’s form follows the ordinal number pattern (IE “ninth” rather than “nine”) but the “k” is still present which is what has me curious.  To date, all other sources I’ve come across only have “sanke/shanke” (or something along those lines) with no “k”.  It has been mentioned here that “sanke” was borrowed from Algonquian.  Does the inclusion of “k” also fit with other Algonquian “nines”?  

Thoughts?

GLOSS[ nine

GRAMCAT[ N

SEMCAT[ 

OTHREC[ {*kšą́kha}  {GHM58}

PMV[ *kšą́hka ¦ (?)

CH[ ʔšą́khe ‘nine’ rlr

CH[ θą́khe ‘nine’ rtc

PDH[ *šą́hka

OP[ šą́kka ¦ nine ¦ rlr

OP[ šǫ́kka ¦ nine ¦ rtc

KS[ šą́kka ¦ nine ¦ rlr

OS[ šą́hka ¦ nine, archaic, card game ¦ rlr

QU[ šąkka ¦ nine ¦ rlr

PSE[ *kišą́•hka ¦ (?)

BI[ †čkané “tckanĕ´” ‘nine’ DS:265 (?)

OF[ †kíštəška “kî´shtAshga” ‘nine’ {JRS09:485}

OF[ “kĭ´ctạcga” ‘nine’ DS:325b

TU[ †kisą́•hkai “tça (N), sā, sāñ, ksañk, ksāhkai, kasankai, ksākai” ‘nine’ HH

TU[ ¦ ksäⁿhk‘ ¦ ‘nine’ Hw.

TU[  ¦ sęk‘ ¦ ‘nine’ Sapir

TU[  ¦ kseⁿk ¦ ‘nine’ Fracht.

TU[ ¦ kiséⁿg, kisén ¦ two ¦ Fracht.

COM[ The recorded CH forms imply different underlying sibilants. PSI *š 

often does become [s], but only primary PSI *s > θ}, {i.e.}, CH {š} 

and {θ} never vary or alternate regularly. But note also the irregular TU 

{s} where {č} is expected. BI {tckanĕ´} {DS:265a} is probably 

borrowed from Choctaw-Chickasaw {čakkâ•li} {nine}; {n} is the usual 

BI replacement for Western Muskogean {l} This W. Muskogean term lacks 

Creek, Hitchiti cognates however, and may be from the same ultimate source 

as Siouan {*kišą́•hka} OF seems to show the intrusive {t} that appears 

following sibilants in {black}, {q.v.} OF {ạ} often represents 

denasalized {*ą}. {Cf.} also Powhatan {*ke•ka•ta•s} {nine} 

{FS 1975:309} as well as other, well known Algonquian look-alikes such as 

Ojibwa {ša•nk-} Fox {ša•ka}, Shawnee {caakathzwi}, Potawatomi 

{šak} {nine} {FS 1975:311, Rhodes, personal communication}. The 

distribution of this set (only the more southerly languages represented), the 

sibilant, and other phonological irregularities in CH, OF and TU, coupled 

with the presence of similar terms in both Algonquian and Muskogean 

languages lead us to conclude that this is a loanword. Direction(s) of 

borrowing and/or source of the term is unknown.

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