From majohnson25 at WISC.EDU  Thu May  1 20:36:08 2014
From: majohnson25 at WISC.EDU (Meredith Johnson)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2014 15:36:08 -0500
Subject: reminder about t-shirts for SCLC
Message-ID: <THU.1.MAY.2014.153608.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Hello everyone,

We will be ordering conference t-shirts next week, so this is your last week to let us know in advance what size you want, if you know you want to purchase a shirt. Please let us know no later than May 4. 

Also, we have decided to offering two color options:  red tee with white writing, or black tee with red writing.  If you have already let us know that you want a shirt, you can write and let us know if you have a color preference as well. We will also follow up with individuals about their color preferences.

We will have some shirts available onsite as well, but this is your chance to be picky!

See you all very soon!

Best,
Meredith

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From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM  Thu May  1 20:50:58 2014
From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2014 15:50:58 -0500
Subject: reminder about t-shirts for SCLC
In-Reply-To: <6CCE7621-C9E7-4CB5-A072-9493EB142C1E@wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.1.MAY.2014.155058.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

I'll take a red one.  Thanks!

Dave

David Kaufman
Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas
Director, Kaw Nation Language Program


On Thu, May 1, 2014 at 3:36 PM, Meredith Johnson <majohnson25 at wisc.edu>wrote:

> Hello everyone,
>
> We will be ordering conference t-shirts next week, so this is your last
> week to let us know in advance what size you want, if you know you want to
> purchase a shirt. Please let us know *no later than May 4*.
>
> Also, we have decided to offering *two color options*:  red tee with
> white writing, or black tee with red writing.  If you have already let us
> know that you want a shirt, you can write and let us know if you have a
> color preference as well. We will also follow up with individuals about
> their color preferences.
>
> We will have some shirts available onsite as well, but this is your chance
> to be picky!
>
> See you all very soon!
>
> Best,
> Meredith
> -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's
> DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from
> Yahoo.com

--
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From bdrosen at WISC.EDU  Fri May  9 16:22:27 2014
From: bdrosen at WISC.EDU (Bryan Rosen)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2014 11:22:27 -0500
Subject: SCLC conference dinner
In-Reply-To: <2EDA2C86-D2A8-4C84-B647-F76831D33834@wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.9.MAY.2014.112227.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Hi all,

My apologies for sending to everyone. :(

Best,

Bryan

On May 9, 2014, at 11:20 AM, Bryan Rosen wrote:

> hey!
> 
> when did you want to meet?
> 
> B
> On May 9, 2014, at 10:52 AM, Meredith Johnson wrote:
> 
>> Dear all,
>> 
>> The conference dinner has finally been confirmed! The conference dinner will take place on Saturday, May 24th from 6:30-8:30 in Memorial Union, which is the same building that the conference sessions will be held in.
>> 
>> The majority of the cost of the dinner is covered by a generous grant from the Ho-Chunk nation, so the dinner will cost only $5 per person. However, due to budget reasons, we only have space for 30 people at the dinner. To reserve a spot at the dinner, please e-mail me at majohnson25 at wisc.edu. No advance payment is necessary; you can pay and receive your ticket when you check-in at the conference. 
>> 
>> We are looking forward to seeing everyone soon! Please let me know if you have any questions.
>> 
>> All the best,
>> Meredith
>> -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com
> 
> -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com


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From majohnson25 at WISC.EDU  Fri May  9 15:52:01 2014
From: majohnson25 at WISC.EDU (Meredith Johnson)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2014 10:52:01 -0500
Subject: SCLC conference dinner
Message-ID: <FRI.9.MAY.2014.105201.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Dear all,

The conference dinner has finally been confirmed! The conference dinner will take place on Saturday, May 24th from 6:30-8:30 in Memorial Union, which is the same building that the conference sessions will be held in.

The majority of the cost of the dinner is covered by a generous grant from the Ho-Chunk nation, so the dinner will cost only $5 per person. However, due to budget reasons, we only have space for 30 people at the dinner. To reserve a spot at the dinner, please e-mail me at majohnson25 at wisc.edu. No advance payment is necessary; you can pay and receive your ticket when you check-in at the conference. 

We are looking forward to seeing everyone soon! Please let me know if you have any questions.

All the best,
Meredith

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From bdrosen at WISC.EDU  Fri May  9 16:20:16 2014
From: bdrosen at WISC.EDU (Bryan Rosen)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2014 11:20:16 -0500
Subject: SCLC conference dinner
In-Reply-To: <1B1B4D16-475B-4AD7-8C65-0DE9F582A701@wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.9.MAY.2014.112016.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

hey!

when did you want to meet?

B
On May 9, 2014, at 10:52 AM, Meredith Johnson wrote:

> Dear all,
> 
> The conference dinner has finally been confirmed! The conference dinner will take place on Saturday, May 24th from 6:30-8:30 in Memorial Union, which is the same building that the conference sessions will be held in.
> 
> The majority of the cost of the dinner is covered by a generous grant from the Ho-Chunk nation, so the dinner will cost only $5 per person. However, due to budget reasons, we only have space for 30 people at the dinner. To reserve a spot at the dinner, please e-mail me at majohnson25 at wisc.edu. No advance payment is necessary; you can pay and receive your ticket when you check-in at the conference. 
> 
> We are looking forward to seeing everyone soon! Please let me know if you have any questions.
> 
> All the best,
> Meredith
> -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com


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From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM  Fri May  9 16:43:40 2014
From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2014 11:43:40 -0500
Subject: SCLC conference dinner
In-Reply-To: <C8221CA0-D738-4B9B-A1A7-C771A9DE11C9@wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.9.MAY.2014.114340.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Good, now I don't feel so bad since I responded to the dinner invitation on
the List rather than privately.  : )  ah well.

Dave

David Kaufman
Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas
Director, Kaw Nation Language Program


On Fri, May 9, 2014 at 11:22 AM, Bryan Rosen <bdrosen at wisc.edu> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> My apologies for sending to everyone. :(
>
> Best,
>
> Bryan
>
> On May 9, 2014, at 11:20 AM, Bryan Rosen wrote:
>
> hey!
>
> when did you want to meet?
>
> B
> On May 9, 2014, at 10:52 AM, Meredith Johnson wrote:
>
> Dear all,
>
> The conference dinner has finally been confirmed! The conference dinner
> will take place on *Saturday, May 24th from 6:30-8:30 in Memorial Union*,
> which is the same building that the conference sessions will be held in.
>
> The majority of the cost of the dinner is covered by a generous grant from
> the Ho-Chunk nation, so the dinner will cost only $5 per person. However,
> due to budget reasons, we only have space for 30 people at the dinner. *To
> reserve a spot at the dinner, please e-mail me at majohnson25 at wisc.edu
> <majohnson25 at wisc.edu>*. No advance payment is necessary; you can pay and
> receive your ticket when you check-in at the conference.
>
> We are looking forward to seeing everyone soon! Please let me know if you
> have any questions.
>
> All the best,
> Meredith
> -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's
> DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from
> Yahoo.com
>
>
> -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's
> DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from
> Yahoo.com
>
>
> -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's
> DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from
> Yahoo.com
>

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From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM  Fri May  9 15:57:59 2014
From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2014 10:57:59 -0500
Subject: SCLC conference dinner
In-Reply-To: <1B1B4D16-475B-4AD7-8C65-0DE9F582A701@wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.9.MAY.2014.105759.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Hi Meredith,

Count me in for the dinner.  Thanks.

Dave

David Kaufman
Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas
Director, Kaw Nation Language Program


On Fri, May 9, 2014 at 10:52 AM, Meredith Johnson <majohnson25 at wisc.edu>wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> The conference dinner has finally been confirmed! The conference dinner
> will take place on *Saturday, May 24th from 6:30-8:30 in Memorial Union*,
> which is the same building that the conference sessions will be held in.
>
> The majority of the cost of the dinner is covered by a generous grant from
> the Ho-Chunk nation, so the dinner will cost only $5 per person. However,
> due to budget reasons, we only have space for 30 people at the dinner. *To
> reserve a spot at the dinner, please e-mail me at majohnson25 at wisc.edu
> <majohnson25 at wisc.edu>*. No advance payment is necessary; you can pay and
> receive your ticket when you check-in at the conference.
>
> We are looking forward to seeing everyone soon! Please let me know if you
> have any questions.
>
> All the best,
> Meredith
> -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's
> DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from
> Yahoo.com

--
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From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM  Sat May 10 00:28:37 2014
From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm GoodTracks)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2014 18:28:37 -0600
Subject: SCLC conference dinner
In-Reply-To: <1B1B4D16-475B-4AD7-8C65-0DE9F582A701@wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.9.MAY.2014.182837.0600.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Please.reservr
G
Four.dinner.placcrs.f Po r.us
Jimm.goodttackd
 On May 9, 2014 11:56 AM, "Meredith Johnson" <majohnson25 at wisc.edu> wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> The conference dinner has finally been confirmed! The conference dinner
> will take place on *Saturday, May 24th from 6:30-8:30 in Memorial Union*,
> which is the same building that the conference sessions will be held in.
>
> The majority of the cost of the dinner is covered by a generous grant from
> the Ho-Chunk nation, so the dinner will cost only $5 per person. However,
> due to budget reasons, we only have space for 30 people at the dinner. *To
> reserve a spot at the dinner, please e-mail me at majohnson25 at wisc.edu
> <majohnson25 at wisc.edu>*. No advance payment is necessary; you can pay and
> receive your ticket when you check-in at the conference.
>
> We are looking forward to seeing everyone soon! Please let me know if you
> have any questions.
>
> All the best,
> Meredith
> -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's
> DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from
> Yahoo.com

--
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From jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU  Wed May 14 13:51:25 2014
From: jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU (Mcbride, Justin)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2014 08:51:25 -0500
Subject: archived Osage?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.64.1405132101490.17009@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.14.MAY.2014.085125.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

David,

If there are transcriptions available, I've never seen them. Still, if
memory serves, her dictionary provides evidence of a rather extensive
coding system after each example pulled from her data. I believe early
drafts of her grammar did, too. While this doesn't necessarily prove that
she transcribed the whole of her recordings, it does suggest that she at
least worked out a coding scheme for doing so. It's completely possible,
then, that there are transcriptions (full or partial) floating around
somewhere. I don't know who might have them if they do exist. Hadn't she
planned to donate much or all of her materials to the Osage Nation for safe
keeping after her death? If so, I don't know if that ever happened, but
there are folks here in town I could ask.

All the best,
-Justin


On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 8:02 AM, ROOD DAVID S <david.rood at colorado.edu>wrote:

> Hi, everyone,
>         When Carolyn Quintero was working on her Osage grammar and
> dictionary, she had funding from NSF for which I was the nominal PI.  In
> part because of that connection, she gave me a set of over 100 cassette
> tapes of her interviews with speakers and some of their stories, as well as
> some miscellaneous stuff (like the recording of a radio program).  Does
> anyone on the list know whether these were ever transcribed and if so,
> where those transcriptions might be?  It's possible that Carolyn just used
> her knowledge of the spoken language to pick examples off the tapes, rather
> than making full written transcriptions.  However, it's going to be hard
> for anyone else to make use of these tapes if we don't have the
> transcriptions.
>         Thanks for any help you can give us.
>         Best,
>         David
>
> David S. Rood
> Dept. of Linguistics
> Univ. of Colorado
> 295 UCB
> Boulder, CO 80309-0295
> USA
> rood at colorado.edu
>
> --
> Manage your subscription at  http://listserv.unl.edu.
> Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept
> incoming email from Yahoo.com
>

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From david.rood at COLORADO.EDU  Wed May 14 13:02:41 2014
From: david.rood at COLORADO.EDU (ROOD DAVID S)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2014 07:02:41 -0600
Subject: archived Osage?
Message-ID: <WED.14.MAY.2014.070241.0600.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Hi, everyone,
 	When Carolyn Quintero was working on her Osage grammar and 
dictionary, she had funding from NSF for which I was the nominal PI.  In 
part because of that connection, she gave me a set of over 100 cassette 
tapes of her interviews with speakers and some of their stories, as well 
as some miscellaneous stuff (like the recording of a radio program).  Does 
anyone on the list know whether these were ever transcribed and if so, 
where those transcriptions might be?  It's possible that Carolyn just used 
her knowledge of the spoken language to pick examples off the tapes, 
rather than making full written transcriptions.  However, it's going to be 
hard for anyone else to make use of these tapes if we don't have the 
transcriptions.
 	Thanks for any help you can give us.
 	Best,
 	David

David S. Rood
Dept. of Linguistics
Univ. of Colorado
295 UCB
Boulder, CO 80309-0295
USA
rood at colorado.edu

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From rlarson1 at unl.edu  Wed May 14 15:49:40 2014
From: rlarson1 at unl.edu (Rory Larson)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2014 15:49:40 +0000
Subject: archived Osage?
In-Reply-To: <CAHmQnNaOz5vin=eXbxvYgLHiCiFFdvzCbAvbQ1XZh07W_QUk3Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <WED.14.MAY.2014.154940.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

In any case, we should probably make sure this material is copied to some electronic medium more permanent than cassette tapes.  Perhaps the Osage Nation or Carolyn have already done this.  If not, I would think that would be a high priority.  Any sense of what the recordings are like?  Are they mostly Osage, or mostly English-based discussion and elicitation?

Best,
Rory


From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mcbride, Justin
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2014 8:51 AM
To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU
Subject: Re: archived Osage?

David,

If there are transcriptions available, I've never seen them. Still, if memory serves, her dictionary provides evidence of a rather extensive coding system after each example pulled from her data. I believe early drafts of her grammar did, too. While this doesn't necessarily prove that she transcribed the whole of her recordings, it does suggest that she at least worked out a coding scheme for doing so. It's completely possible, then, that there are transcriptions (full or partial) floating around somewhere. I don't know who might have them if they do exist. Hadn't she planned to donate much or all of her materials to the Osage Nation for safe keeping after her death? If so, I don't know if that ever happened, but there are folks here in town I could ask.

All the best,
-Justin

On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 8:02 AM, ROOD DAVID S <david.rood at colorado.edu<mailto:david.rood at colorado.edu>> wrote:
Hi, everyone,
        When Carolyn Quintero was working on her Osage grammar and dictionary, she had funding from NSF for which I was the nominal PI.  In part because of that connection, she gave me a set of over 100 cassette tapes of her interviews with speakers and some of their stories, as well as some miscellaneous stuff (like the recording of a radio program).  Does anyone on the list know whether these were ever transcribed and if so, where those transcriptions might be?  It's possible that Carolyn just used her knowledge of the spoken language to pick examples off the tapes, rather than making full written transcriptions.  However, it's going to be hard for anyone else to make use of these tapes if we don't have the transcriptions.
        Thanks for any help you can give us.
        Best,
        David

David S. Rood
Dept. of Linguistics
Univ. of Colorado
295 UCB
Boulder, CO 80309-0295
USA
rood at colorado.edu<mailto:rood at colorado.edu>

--
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From mawakuni-swetland2 at UNL.EDU  Wed May 14 18:33:41 2014
From: mawakuni-swetland2 at UNL.EDU (Mark Awakuni-Swetland)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2014 18:33:41 +0000
Subject: archived Osage?
In-Reply-To: <CAHmQnNaOz5vin=eXbxvYgLHiCiFFdvzCbAvbQ1XZh07W_QUk3Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <WED.14.MAY.2014.183341.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Aloha all,
Just some musings from the sideline…David and Justin’s questions about where Carolyn’s materials may be reminds me of Bob Rankin’s recent urging to all of us. TRANSCRIBE our field notes, recordings, etc. as the first step to making those data more useful to researchers, community programs, and families. Create some sort of index system or finding aid and place copies in appropriate digital media archive(s).

We all know how the black hole of resources needed for transcribing is hard to estimate for grant-proposals. Some sort of template would really be helpful in calculating time required and labor for data entry.

Just a reminder of Bob’s call to get field notes, elicitation recordings, etc. dusted off and converted into appropriate media…whatever fits for the particular data.
Mark A-S

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mcbride, Justin
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2014 8:51 AM
To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU
Subject: Re: archived Osage?

David,

If there are transcriptions available, I've never seen them. Still, if memory serves, her dictionary provides evidence of a rather extensive coding system after each example pulled from her data. I believe early drafts of her grammar did, too. While this doesn't necessarily prove that she transcribed the whole of her recordings, it does suggest that she at least worked out a coding scheme for doing so. It's completely possible, then, that there are transcriptions (full or partial) floating around somewhere. I don't know who might have them if they do exist. Hadn't she planned to donate much or all of her materials to the Osage Nation for safe keeping after her death? If so, I don't know if that ever happened, but there are folks here in town I could ask.

All the best,
-Justin

On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 8:02 AM, ROOD DAVID S <david.rood at colorado.edu<mailto:david.rood at colorado.edu>> wrote:
Hi, everyone,
        When Carolyn Quintero was working on her Osage grammar and dictionary, she had funding from NSF for which I was the nominal PI.  In part because of that connection, she gave me a set of over 100 cassette tapes of her interviews with speakers and some of their stories, as well as some miscellaneous stuff (like the recording of a radio program).  Does anyone on the list know whether these were ever transcribed and if so, where those transcriptions might be?  It's possible that Carolyn just used her knowledge of the spoken language to pick examples off the tapes, rather than making full written transcriptions.  However, it's going to be hard for anyone else to make use of these tapes if we don't have the transcriptions.
        Thanks for any help you can give us.
        Best,
        David

David S. Rood
Dept. of Linguistics
Univ. of Colorado
295 UCB
Boulder, CO 80309-0295
USA
rood at colorado.edu<mailto:rood at colorado.edu>

--
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From dvkanth2010 at gmail.com  Mon May 19 17:52:40 2014
From: dvkanth2010 at gmail.com (David Kaufman)
Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 12:52:40 -0500
Subject: Lakota/Dakota questions
Message-ID: <MON.19.MAY.2014.125240.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Hi all,

Can anyone tell me how to say these sentences in Dakota/Lakota?

1) This morning I went hunting.

2) I cannot cook

3) I came chasing someone.

Specifically, I'm looking at serial verb constructions and whether or not
Dakota/Lakota would show subjects on both verbs or just one of them.  Any
help would greatly be appreciated!

See y'all soon!

Dave


David Kaufman
Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas
Director, Kaw Nation Language Program

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From voorhis at WESTMAN.WAVE.CA  Tue May 20 03:08:52 2014
From: voorhis at WESTMAN.WAVE.CA (voorhis at WESTMAN.WAVE.CA)
Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 22:08:52 -0500
Subject: Lakota/Dakota questions
In-Reply-To: <CAKapKjQUs0jC3rtE1J_8vMfroPVWZKq8HZeFz4taTJmoZS4=9g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MON.19.MAY.2014.220852.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

David,

In the local Dakota (southwest Manitoba), 'go' and 'come' take subjects 
only on the second (the go-or-come) verb, e.g. Xtanihan wakhuwa yai he. 
  'Did you go hunting yesterday?'  'Can' takes subject marking on both 
verbs, e.g. Iyamayakipha oyakihi he.  'Can you wait for me?' with verbs 
iyakipha/e 'to wait for' and okihi 'to be able to'.

Please forgive the hasty transcription.  If some pronunciation is 
uncertain just ask me and I'll explain it.

Paul

On 5/19/2014 12:52 PM, David Kaufman wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Can anyone tell me how to say these sentences in Dakota/Lakota?
>
> 1) This morning I went hunting.
>
> 2) I cannot cook
>
> 3) I came chasing someone.
>
> Specifically, I'm looking at serial verb constructions and whether or
> not Dakota/Lakota would show subjects on both verbs or just one of them.
>   Any help would greatly be appreciated!
>
> See y'all soon!
>
> Dave
>
>
> David Kaufman
> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas
> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program
> -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's
> DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from
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From jfu at LAKHOTA.ORG  Tue May 20 05:10:10 2014
From: jfu at LAKHOTA.ORG (Jan Ullrich)
Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 07:10:10 +0200
Subject: Lakota/Dakota questions
In-Reply-To: <CAKapKjQUs0jC3rtE1J_8vMfroPVWZKq8HZeFz4taTJmoZS4=9g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.20.MAY.2014.071010.0200.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

David,

 

Below are the Lakota translations of the sentences. 

Sentence (2) has at least three possible translations, depending on what you mean.

Let me know if you need more specific annotation for any of the words or any other additional info.

 

Jan

 

 

1) This morning I went hunting.

 

Híŋhaŋni wakhúl omáwani.

morning / shooting things / I walked about

 

2) I cannot cook

 

a) Lol’íȟaŋpi uŋmáspe šni. – I don’t know how to cook.

Cooking / I know how / not

 

b) Lol’íwaȟ’aŋ owákihi šni. – I can’t cook (I am unable at the moment or under given circumstances).

I cook / I can / not

 

c) Tókheni(š) lol’íwaȟ’aŋ šni. – There is no way I could cook (under given circumstance).

In no way / I cook / not

 

(Also, there are a number of verbs for “to cook“, although the one I used is most common today.)

 

3) I came chasing someone.

 

Tuwá khuwá awáhi.

Someone / chasing him / I brought him

 


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From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM  Tue May 20 15:57:17 2014
From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman)
Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 10:57:17 -0500
Subject: Lakota/Dakota questions
In-Reply-To: <001e01cf73e9$c7540420$55fc0c60$@org>
Message-ID: <TUE.20.MAY.2014.105717.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Thank you, Paul and Jan, for the translations.  Would you be able to
provide a morpheme-by-morpheme gloss of the sentences?  This will go a long
way in helping me to compare with Dhegiha.

Dave

David Kaufman
Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas
Director, Kaw Nation Language Program


On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 12:10 AM, Jan Ullrich <jfu at lakhota.org> wrote:

> David,
>
>
>
> Below are the Lakota translations of the sentences.
>
> Sentence (2) has at least three possible translations, depending on what
> you mean.
>
> Let me know if you need more specific annotation for any of the words or
> any other additional info.
>
>
>
> Jan
>
>
>
>
>
> 1) This morning I went hunting.
>
>
>
> Híŋhaŋni wakhúl omáwani.
>
> morning / shooting things / I walked about
>
>
>
> 2) I cannot cook
>
>
>
> a) Lol’íȟaŋpi uŋmáspe šni. – I don’t know how to cook.
>
> Cooking / I know how / not
>
>
>
> b) Lol’íwaȟ’aŋ owákihi šni. – I can’t cook (I am unable at the moment or
> under given circumstances).
>
> I cook / I can / not
>
>
>
> c) Tókheni(š) lol’íwaȟ’aŋ šni. – There is no way I could cook (under given
> circumstance).
>
> In no way / I cook / not
>
>
>
> (Also, there are a number of verbs for “to cook“, although the one I used
> is most common today.)
>
>
>
> 3) I came chasing someone.
>
>
>
> Tuwá khuwá awáhi.
>
> Someone / chasing him / I brought him
>
>
> -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's
> DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from
> Yahoo.com
>

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From jfu at LAKHOTA.ORG  Tue May 20 16:44:35 2014
From: jfu at LAKHOTA.ORG (Jan Ullrich)
Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 18:44:35 +0200
Subject: Lakota/Dakota questions
In-Reply-To: <CAKapKjRXwSOE-hLuHb2p=nDq+oVcfF3V5rGNwj6ENiaKmLVLGg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.20.MAY.2014.184435.0200.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

> Would you be able to provide a morpheme-by-morpheme gloss of the sentences?  

David, below is a version with more detailed glossing of the verbal morphemes.

 

1) This morning I went hunting.

Híŋhaŋni wa-khúl o-má-wa-ni.

morning / non.specific.patient-shoot.at.sth.sb (truncated form of wakhúte) / locative.(about)-stem-1SG.AG-stem(to.walk)

 

2) I cannot cook

 

a) Lol’íȟaŋ-pi uŋ-má-spe šni. – I don’t know how to cook. (literally: I don’t know how to do cooking.)

to.cook-3PL.AG / stem-1SG.PAT-to.know.how.to.do.smth / not

(The 3rd plural affix –pi nominalizes the verb lol’íȟ’aŋ, so the meaning of the first words is ‘cooking’).

 

b) Lol’-í-wa-ȟ’aŋ o-wá-kihi šni. – I can’t cook (I am unable at the moment or under given circumstances).

Food-loc-1SG.AG-act / stem-1SG.AG-stem(can/able) / not

 

c) Tókheni(š) lol’íwaȟ’aŋ šni. – There is no way I could cook (under given circumstance).

In no way(adversative) / food-loc-1SG.AG-act / not

 

(There are a number of verbs for “to cook“, although the one I used is most common today.)

 

3) I came chasing someone.

 

Tuwá khuwá a-wá-hi.

Someone / to.chase.sb.sth / loc-1SG.AG-to.come.here

 The verb ahí (1SG.AG: awáhi) means ‘to bring sth/sb’, so the literal meaning is “I brought someone here chasing him/her.” To my knowledge Lakota always uses bringing/taking verbs rather than coming/going verbs in this construction. 

 

Jan

 

 


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From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM  Tue May 20 17:29:58 2014
From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman)
Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 12:29:58 -0500
Subject: Lakota/Dakota questions
In-Reply-To: <008e01cf744a$c86f1a00$594d4e00$@org>
Message-ID: <TUE.20.MAY.2014.122958.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Thanks, Jan!  This is very helpful.

Dave

David Kaufman
Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas
Director, Kaw Nation Language Program


On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 11:44 AM, Jan Ullrich <jfu at lakhota.org> wrote:

> > Would you be able to provide a morpheme-by-morpheme gloss of the
> sentences?
>
> David, below is a version with more detailed glossing of the verbal
> morphemes.
>
>
>
> 1) This morning I went hunting.
>
> Híŋhaŋni wa-khúl o-má-wa-ni.
>
> morning / non.specific.patient-shoot.at.sth.sb (truncated form of wakhúte)/
> locative.(about)-stem-1SG.AG-stem(to.walk)
>
>
>
> 2) I cannot cook
>
>
>
> a) Lol’íȟaŋ-pi uŋ-má-spe šni. – I don’t know how to cook. (literally: I
> don’t know how to do cooking.)
>
> to.cook-3PL.AG / stem-1SG.PAT-to.know.how.to.do.smth / not
>
> (The 3rd plural affix –pi nominalizes the verb lol’íȟ’aŋ, so the meaning
> of the first words is ‘cooking’).
>
>
>
> b) Lol’-í-wa-ȟ’aŋ o-wá-kihi šni. – I can’t cook (I am unable at the
> moment or under given circumstances).
>
> Food-loc-1SG.AG-act / stem-1SG.AG-stem(can/able) / not
>
>
>
> c) Tókheni(š) lol’íwaȟ’aŋ šni. – There is no way I could cook (under given
> circumstance).
>
> In no way(adversative) / food-loc-1SG.AG-act / not
>
>
>
> (There are a number of verbs for “to cook“, although the one I used is
> most common today.)
>
>
>
> 3) I came chasing someone.
>
>
>
> Tuwá khuwá a-wá-hi.
>
> Someone / to.chase.sb.sth / loc-1SG.AG-to.come.here
>
>  The verb ahí (1SG.AG: awáhi) means ‘to bring sth/sb’, so the literal
> meaning is “I brought someone here chasing him/her.” To my knowledge Lakota
> always uses bringing/taking verbs rather than coming/going verbs in this
> construction.
>
>
>
> Jan
>
>
>
>
> -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's
> DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from
> Yahoo.com
>

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From Kathleen.Danker at SDSTATE.EDU  Tue May 20 20:28:13 2014
From: Kathleen.Danker at SDSTATE.EDU (Danker, Kathleen)
Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 20:28:13 +0000
Subject: reminder about t-shirts for SCLC
In-Reply-To: <6CCE7621-C9E7-4CB5-A072-9493EB142C1E@wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.20.MAY.2014.202813.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Meredith Johnson,
This is to let you know that I will be attending the Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference on Friday and Saturday. I have lodging and will not attend the dinner on Sunday.
K.D. Danker

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Meredith Johnson
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2014 3:36 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: reminder about t-shirts for SCLC

Hello everyone,

We will be ordering conference t-shirts next week, so this is your last week to let us know in advance what size you want, if you know you want to purchase a shirt. Please let us know no later than May 4.

Also, we have decided to offering two color options:  red tee with white writing, or black tee with red writing.  If you have already let us know that you want a shirt, you can write and let us know if you have a color preference as well. We will also follow up with individuals about their color preferences.

We will have some shirts available onsite as well, but this is your chance to be picky!

See you all very soon!

Best,
Meredith
-- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com

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From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU  Wed May 21 14:49:50 2014
From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson)
Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 14:49:50 +0000
Subject: Siouan accent and long syllables
Message-ID: <WED.21.MAY.2014.144950.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

I have a question about the Siouan accent rule that I should know, but don't.  Generally, Siouan accent likes to go on the second syllable.  Also, Siouan vowels are sometimes long.  Does a long vowel count as one syllable or two for purposes of the Siouan accent rule?  If we have a word with the vowel of the first syllable long,

                cvvcv

should Siouan accent it as

                cvvcV

or as

                cvVcv

?

Thanks,
Rory

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From linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU  Wed May 21 15:18:58 2014
From: linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU (Bryan James Gordon)
Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 08:18:58 -0700
Subject: Siouan accent and long syllables
In-Reply-To: <98a5f12a44204ae4899f12e5f2ab591e@DM2PR08MB525.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <WED.21.MAY.2014.081858.0700.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

It seems like there is some variation about how vowel length interacts with
stress. I never have managed to figure out a simple, neat explanation for
how it works in Ponca and Omaha. It seems like if one of the first two
syllables has a long vowel, that one usually gets stressed, but not always.
Sometimes the stress placement is more an indicator of morphology than
phonology, e.g. "itháe" "I speak" vs. "íthae" "you speak". And when both
vowels are underlyingly long it seems to me like there are morphological,
phonological and "free" (across- and within-speaker) variations. And then
there's the question of why "wa-" "them" seems to like stress more than
"wa-" "us". Is "wa-" "them" underlyingly long?

I understand the situation in Ioway, Otoe and Missouria even less. Jimm may
be able to help out here. I often notice when comparing recordings with
each other or with Jimm's dictionary that words like "Baxoje" "Ioway" are
stressed on different syllables by different speakers or even by the same
speaker in different contexts. It seems like the first vowel in "Baxoje" is
long, so there may be some sort of tension going on here between "Put
stress on the third mora" and "Put stress on the first long vowel". The
dictionary orthography (I think) puts stress on the first syllable.
On May 21, 2014 7:55 AM, "Rory Larson" <rlarson1 at unl.edu> wrote:

>  I have a question about the Siouan accent rule that I should know, but
> don’t.  Generally, Siouan accent likes to go on the second syllable.  Also,
> Siouan vowels are sometimes long.  Does a long vowel count as one syllable
> or two for purposes of the Siouan accent rule?  If we have a word with the
> vowel of the first syllable long,
>
>
>
>                 cvvcv
>
>
>
> should Siouan accent it as
>
>
>
>                 cvvcV
>
>
>
> or as
>
>
>
>                 cvVcv
>
>
>
> ?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Rory
>  -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's
> DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from
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From voorhis at WESTMAN.WAVE.CA  Wed May 21 16:35:18 2014
From: voorhis at WESTMAN.WAVE.CA (voorhis at WESTMAN.WAVE.CA)
Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 11:35:18 -0500
Subject: Lakota/Dakota questions
In-Reply-To: <CAKapKjRXwSOE-hLuHb2p=nDq+oVcfF3V5rGNwj6ENiaKmLVLGg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <WED.21.MAY.2014.113518.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Dave,

Xtanihan wakhuwa yai he.  'Did you go hunting yesterday?'
xtanihan 'yesterday'
wa- indefinite object 'something, someone'
khuwa 'hunt' transitive verb
ya- 'you' subject
i 'go and arrive, go (perfective)'
he question marker

Iyamayakipha oyakihi he.  'Can you wait for me?'
iya-kiphe/a 'wait for' transitive verb
ma- 'me' object
ya- 'you' subject
o-kihi 'be able to'
ya- 'you' subject
he question marker

iya-kiphe/a is evidently composed historically of i- 'by means of',
a-phe/a 'await', and ki- 'to, for' (benefactive).  I'm not sure how
aware contemporary speakers are of all the components in this verb, though.

o-kihi appears to consist historically of o- 'in' and kihi 'grow up
(?)'.  Again, I'm not sure how many speakers would recognize this etymology.

Paul

On 5/20/2014 10:57 AM, David Kaufman wrote:
> Thank you, Paul and Jan, for the translations.  Would you be able to
>  provide a morpheme-by-morpheme gloss of the sentences?  This will go
> a long way in helping me to compare with Dhegiha.
>
> Dave
>
> David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of
> Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program
>
>
> On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 12:10 AM, Jan Ullrich <jfu at lakhota.org
> <mailto:jfu at lakhota.org>> wrote:
>
> David,____
>
> __ __
>
> Below are the Lakota translations of the sentences. ____
>
> Sentence (2) has at least three possible translations, depending on
> what you mean.____
>
> Let me know if you need more specific annotation for any of the words
> or any other additional info.____
>
> __ __
>
> Jan____
>
> __ __
>
> __ __
>
> 1) This morning I went hunting.____
>
> __ __
>
> Híŋhaŋni wakhúl omáwani.____
>
> morning / shooting things / I walked about____
>
> __ __
>
> 2) I cannot cook____
>
> __ __
>
> a) Lol’íȟaŋpi uŋmáspe šni. – I don’t know how to cook.____
>
> Cooking / I know how / not____
>
> __ __
>
> b) Lol’íwaȟ’aŋ owákihi šni. – I can’t cook (I am unable at the moment
> or under given circumstances).____
>
> I cook / I can / not____
>
> __ __
>
> c) Tókheni(š) lol’íwaȟ’aŋ šni. – There is no way I could cook (under
> given circumstance).____
>
> In no way / I cook / not____
>
> __ __
>
> (Also, there are a number of verbs for “to cook“, although the one I
> used is most common today.)____
>
> __ __
>
> 3) I came chasing someone.____
>
> __ __
>
> Tuwá khuwá awáhi.____
>
> Someone / chasing him / I brought him____
>
> __ __
>
> -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to
> Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu <http://listserv.unl.edu>
> lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com
>
>
> -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to
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> email from Yahoo.com

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From ryan.kasak at GMAIL.COM  Wed May 21 19:36:17 2014
From: ryan.kasak at GMAIL.COM (Ryan Kasak)
Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 15:36:17 -0400
Subject: Siouan accent and long syllables
In-Reply-To: <CADVVCOj4MohR7aMcTo0ACnOSjbX2ugwPeTZVwZ1r8cxJDUmVQQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <WED.21.MAY.2014.153617.0400.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Regarding Bryan's discussion of the conflict between syllable weight and
expected μμμ́ pattern in Chiwere, it could simply be that the
Weight-to-Stress Principle of Prince (1990) is ranked higher than the μμμ́
pattern, if we put this in the context of OT tableaux:

WSP>> μμμ́
 /baaxoje/ WSP μμμ́  -> a. báaxoje   *    b. baaxóje *!
It is thus more important that heavy syllables attract stress than adhere
to the on-the-third-mora tendency we see. This hierarchy could help start
to explain the disconnect between when to stress what in Chiwere. I haven't
looked much into Hoocąk, so I don't know if this brief observation would
hold true there as well.

In Mandan, there is a preference for left-aligned iambs, where long vowels
are well-formed iambs: LĹ, LH́, H́.
/istawį/  -> [(i.stá).mį] 'eye'
/ruwąk/ -> [(nų.mą́k)] 'man'
/wį-ta-wįįh-e/ -> [(pta.mį́į).he] 'my sister'
/pąąpi-oʔš/ -> [(pą́ą).piʔš] 'he is thin' (said to male listener)

The only two exceptions to this is in compounds and in words involving
preverbs/applicatives /i, e, aa, o/. In compounds, primary stress is
assigned to the leftmost-available iamb. If no iamb is available, the
stress does not cross the word boundary, resulting in deficient feet, i.e.,
a foot containing just a stressed Ĺ.

COMPOUNDS:

/paʔ/ 'head' + /hį/ 'hair' -> [(páʔ).hį] 'porcupine'
/wįʔ/ 'stone' + /ti/ 'house' -> [(mį́ʔ).ti] 'village'
/ho/ 'story' + /kirąąr/ 'tell' -> [(hó).ki.nąa.roʔš] ’he is
story-telling’ (said to male listener)

PREVERBS

/i/ directional + /aaki/ `be above' + /ta/ locative -> [(í).ʔaa.ki.ta]
’upward’
/o/ inessive + /wa/ 1st active + /kųh/ `want something' + /oʔš/ ->
[(ó).wa.kų.hoʔš] 'I want something'

The stress placement in constructions with preverbs suggests that the
phonology is sensitive to the morphological structure of non-simplex words.
In Anderson’s (1992) *A-Morphous Morphology*, he calls words like those in
the preverbs 'composites,' meaning that there is some internal structure:
[ó- [wakųhoʔš]] ’I want something.’ The preverb isn't in the same domain
as the inflected root is, and the left-aligned iambic stress assignment
cannot corss over into the next domain to create a well-formed iamb, due to
what Ito and Mester (1999) call a CrispEdge constraint, where some
phonological processes are unable to cross certain boundaries.

I haven’t looked super seriously at other Siouan languages’ stress
patterns, but I think that Lakota/Dakota likewise prefers iambic feet (sans
the long vowels like in Mandan) except for cases of compounds and
composites, but I'd be interested to see how well that guess plays out.

-Ryan


On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 11:18 AM, Bryan James Gordon <
linguist at email.arizona.edu> wrote:

> It seems like there is some variation about how vowel length interacts
> with stress. I never have managed to figure out a simple, neat explanation
> for how it works in Ponca and Omaha. It seems like if one of the first two
> syllables has a long vowel, that one usually gets stressed, but not always.
> Sometimes the stress placement is more an indicator of morphology than
> phonology, e.g. "itháe" "I speak" vs. "íthae" "you speak". And when both
> vowels are underlyingly long it seems to me like there are morphological,
> phonological and "free" (across- and within-speaker) variations. And then
> there's the question of why "wa-" "them" seems to like stress more than
> "wa-" "us". Is "wa-" "them" underlyingly long?
>
> I understand the situation in Ioway, Otoe and Missouria even less. Jimm
> may be able to help out here. I often notice when comparing recordings with
> each other or with Jimm's dictionary that words like "Baxoje" "Ioway" are
> stressed on different syllables by different speakers or even by the same
> speaker in different contexts. It seems like the first vowel in "Baxoje" is
> long, so there may be some sort of tension going on here between "Put
> stress on the third mora" and "Put stress on the first long vowel". The
> dictionary orthography (I think) puts stress on the first syllable.
>  On May 21, 2014 7:55 AM, "Rory Larson" <rlarson1 at unl.edu> wrote:
>
>>  I have a question about the Siouan accent rule that I should know, but
>> don’t.  Generally, Siouan accent likes to go on the second syllable.  Also,
>> Siouan vowels are sometimes long.  Does a long vowel count as one syllable
>> or two for purposes of the Siouan accent rule?  If we have a word with the
>> vowel of the first syllable long,
>>
>>
>>
>>                 cvvcv
>>
>>
>>
>> should Siouan accent it as
>>
>>
>>
>>                 cvvcV
>>
>>
>>
>> or as
>>
>>
>>
>>                 cvVcv
>>
>>
>>
>> ?
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Rory
>>  -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's
>> DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from
>> Yahoo.com
>
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From lhf at UNL.EDU  Wed May 21 21:13:48 2014
From: lhf at UNL.EDU (Loren Frerichs)
Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 21:13:48 +0000
Subject: FW: Siouan accent and long syllables
In-Reply-To: <1400705196.79952.YahooMailNeo@web185402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WED.21.MAY.2014.211348.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>


________________________________
From: Emilia Aigotti <aigotm at yahoo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 15:46
To: Siouan Linguistics
Subject: Re: Siouan accent and long syllables

Did you read about Dorsey's Law? Wolff 1950 has a good explanation of it although I haven't totally wrapped my head around it. Don't forget though, it is believed that Chiwere doesn't have vowel length. Here is an excerpt from my paper from Miner 1979. Not sure this helps at all. I just jumped in on this conversation…

Emilia

3.1.3 Hypotheses on Chiwere/Hoocąk Relationship.  Miner (1979) gives examples of the relationship between accent and stress patterns between Hoocąk and Chiwere.
1. third-mora accent in Winnebago  matches second-syllable accent in                                        Chiwere
2. Chiwere accented initial syllables correspond to Winnebago long                      initial syllables
3. Point two above corresponds to the instrumental prefixes.
This means, accented instrumentals in Chiwere closely resembled lengthened prefixes in Winnebago (and the same being true for unaccented and short vowels). The following is an excerpt from the chart Miner provides (p. 31) on the similarities between Hoocąk and Chiwere instrumentals.

________________________________
From: Ryan Kasak <ryan.kasak at GMAIL.COM>
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: Siouan accent and long syllables

Regarding Bryan's discussion of the conflict between syllable weight and expected μμμ́ pattern in Chiwere, it could simply be that the Weight-to-Stress Principle of Prince (1990) is ranked higher than the μμμ́ pattern, if we put this in the context of OT tableaux:

WSP>> μμμ́
/baaxoje/       WSP     μμμ́
->      a. báaxoje              *
        b. baaxóje      *!

It is thus more important that heavy syllables attract stress than adhere to the on-the-third-mora tendency we see. This hierarchy could help start to explain the disconnect between when to stress what in Chiwere. I haven't looked much into Hoocąk, so I don't know if this brief observation would hold true there as well.

In Mandan, there is a preference for left-aligned iambs, where long vowels are well-formed iambs: LĹ, LH́, H́.
/istawį/  -> [(i.stá).mį] 'eye'
/ruwąk/ -> [(nų.mą́k)] 'man'
/wį-ta-wįįh-e/ -> [(pta.mį́į).he] 'my sister'
/pąąpi-oʔš/ -> [(pą́ą).piʔš] 'he is thin' (said to male listener)

The only two exceptions to this is in compounds and in words involving preverbs/applicatives /i, e, aa, o/. In compounds, primary stress is assigned to the leftmost-available iamb. If no iamb is available, the stress does not cross the word boundary, resulting in deficient feet, i.e., a foot containing just a stressed Ĺ.

COMPOUNDS:

/paʔ/ 'head' + /hį/ 'hair' -> [(páʔ).hį] 'porcupine'
/wįʔ/ 'stone' + /ti/ 'house' -> [(mį́ʔ).ti] 'village'
/ho/ 'story' + /kirąąr/ 'tell' -> [(hó).ki.na<http://ki.na/>̨a.ro<http://a.ro/>ʔš] ’he is story-telling’ (said to male listener)

PREVERBS

/i/ directional + /aaki/ `be above' + /ta/ locative -> [(í).ʔaa.ki.ta] ’upward’
/o/ inessive + /wa/ 1st active + /kųh/ `want something' + /oʔš/ -> [(ó).wa.kų.hoʔš] 'I want something'

The stress placement in constructions with preverbs suggests that the phonology is sensitive to the morphological structure of non-simplex words. In Anderson’s (1992) A-Morphous Morphology, he calls words like those in the preverbs 'composites,' meaning that there is some internal structure: [ó- [wakųhoʔš]] ’I want something.’ The preverb isn't in the same domain as the inflected root is, and the left-aligned iambic stress assignment cannot corss over into the next domain to create a well-formed iamb, due to what Ito and Mester (1999) call a CrispEdge constraint, where some phonological processes are unable to cross certain boundaries.

I haven’t looked super seriously at other Siouan languages’ stress patterns, but I think that Lakota/Dakota likewise prefers iambic feet (sans the long vowels like in Mandan) except for cases of compounds and composites, but I'd be interested to see how well that guess plays out.

-Ryan


On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 11:18 AM, Bryan James Gordon <linguist at email.arizona.edu<mailto:linguist at email.arizona.edu>> wrote:
It seems like there is some variation about how vowel length interacts with stress. I never have managed to figure out a simple, neat explanation for how it works in Ponca and Omaha. It seems like if one of the first two syllables has a long vowel, that one usually gets stressed, but not always. Sometimes the stress placement is more an indicator of morphology than phonology, e.g. "itháe" "I speak" vs. "íthae" "you speak". And when both vowels are underlyingly long it seems to me like there are morphological, phonological and "free" (across- and within-speaker) variations. And then there's the question of why "wa-" "them" seems to like stress more than "wa-" "us". Is "wa-" "them" underlyingly long?
I understand the situation in Ioway, Otoe and Missouria even less. Jimm may be able to help out here. I often notice when comparing recordings with each other or with Jimm's dictionary that words like "Baxoje" "Ioway" are stressed on different syllables by different speakers or even by the same speaker in different contexts. It seems like the first vowel in "Baxoje" is long, so there may be some sort of tension going on here between "Put stress on the third mora" and "Put stress on the first long vowel". The dictionary orthography (I think) puts stress on the first syllable.
On May 21, 2014 7:55 AM, "Rory Larson" <rlarson1 at unl.edu<mailto:rlarson1 at unl.edu>> wrote:
I have a question about the Siouan accent rule that I should know, but don’t.  Generally, Siouan accent likes to go on the second syllable.  Also, Siouan vowels are sometimes long.  Does a long vowel count as one syllable or two for purposes of the Siouan accent rule?  If we have a word with the vowel of the first syllable long,

                cvvcv

should Siouan accent it as

                cvvcV

or as

                cvVcv

?

Thanks,
Rory
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From majohnson25 at WISC.EDU  Thu May 22 00:05:22 2014
From: majohnson25 at WISC.EDU (Meredith Johnson)
Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 19:05:22 -0500
Subject: updated SCLC schedule and directions to conference
Message-ID: <WED.21.MAY.2014.190522.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Dear all,

We have just a couple of quick notes about the conference coming up this weekend.

First of all, please find attached an updated schedule for the conference. We have had two recent cancellations, which are now reflected. The new schedule also has the rooms for the conference each day and the dinner. Note that everything is happening on the third floor of Memorial Union, but we will be using two different rooms on different days.

Second, we had some questions about how to get to the conference. If you are staying at the Hampton Inn, walking directions to the union can be found here: https://www.google.com/maps/dir/440+W+Johnson+St,+Madison,+WI+53703/800+Langdon+St,+Madison,+WI+53706/@43.074369,-89.4004689,16z/data=!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x8806533699f3c09b:0x75d55a7cbeda422!2m2!1d-89.393261!2d43.072792!1m5!1m1!1s0x8807accaa0165ae1:0x25a67a47b6356ac4!2m2!1d-89.399663!2d43.076118!3e2?hl=en-US

If you are staying further away, bus schedule information can be found here: http://www.cityofmadison.com/metro/. You can also use Google Maps to plan your bus trip. 

Lastly, if you are driving to the conference, note that there is no onsite parking due to construction. The closest parking ramp is the State Street Campus Ramp at 415 N Lake St. Walking directions between the ramp and the conference site can be found here:
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/State+Street+Campus+Ramp,+415+N+Lake+St,+Madison,+WI+53715/800+Langdon+St,+Madison,+WI+53706/@43.0746727,-89.4010652,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x88065334dd132d05:0xd36aee177d9a1dd!2m2!1d-89.39719!2d43.074076!1m5!1m1!1s0x8807accaa0165ae1:0x25a67a47b6356ac4!2m2!1d-89.399663!2d43.076118!3e2?hl=en-US

Any other questions, please let me know. We look forward to seeing everyone this weekend!

Best,
Meredith

 

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From linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU  Thu May 22 03:08:26 2014
From: linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU (Bryan James Gordon)
Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 20:08:26 -0700
Subject: FW: Siouan accent and long syllables
In-Reply-To: <CADVVCOhtqDFCvG-zag0bLWPusjKhvwr_7rAKov_TN2mpTFvxwg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <WED.21.MAY.2014.200826.0700.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

I'm aware of good arguments that vowel length doesn't really function to
distinguish word pairs in Ioway, Otoe and Missouria, and very rarely serves
a distinguishing function in Omaha or Ponca either. However, what I hear in
listening to recordings and speakers for both groupings is a bimodal
distribution of length on unaccented first syllables. If length is ever
"really" distinctive, it's probably first and foremost on unaccented first
syllables. At some point I'll get my act together and provide quantitative
support for all this speculation.
BJG
On May 21, 2014 9:59 PM, "BJG" <egonxti at gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm aware of good arguments that vowel length doesn't really function to
> distinguish word pairs in Ioway, Otoe and Missouria, and very rarely serves
> a distinguishing function in Omaha or Ponca either. However, what I hear in
> listening to recordings and speakers for both groupings is a bimodal
> distribution of length on unaccented first syllables. If length is ever
> "really" distinctive, it's probably first and foremost on unaccented first
> syllables. At some point I'll get my act together and provide quantitative
> support for all this speculation.
>
> BJG
> On May 21, 2014 4:19 PM, "Loren Frerichs" <lhf at unl.edu> wrote:
>
>>
>>  ------------------------------
>> *From:* Emilia Aigotti <aigotm at yahoo.com>
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 21, 2014 15:46
>> *To:* Siouan Linguistics
>> *Subject:* Re: Siouan accent and long syllables
>>
>>   Did you read about Dorsey's Law? Wolff 1950 has a good explanation of
>> it although I haven't totally wrapped my head around it. Don't forget
>> though, it is believed that Chiwere doesn't have vowel length. Here is an
>> excerpt from my paper from Miner 1979. Not sure this helps at all. I just
>> jumped in on this conversation…
>>
>>  Emilia
>>
>>  *3.1.3 Hypotheses on Chiwere/Hoocąk Relationship.  *Miner (1979) gives
>> examples of the relationship between accent and stress patterns between
>> Hoocąk and Chiwere.
>> 1. third-mora accent in Winnebago  matches second-syllable accent in
>>     Chiwere
>> 2. Chiwere accented initial syllables correspond to Winnebago long
>>      initial syllables
>> 3. Point two above corresponds to the instrumental prefixes.
>>  This means, accented instrumentals in Chiwere closely resembled
>> lengthened prefixes in Winnebago (and the same being true for unaccented
>> and short vowels). The following is an excerpt from the chart Miner
>> provides (p. 31) on the similarities between Hoocąk and Chiwere
>> instrumentals.
>>
>>   ------------------------------
>> *From:* Ryan Kasak <ryan.kasak at GMAIL.COM>
>> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 21, 2014 2:36 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: Siouan accent and long syllables
>>
>>  Regarding Bryan's discussion of the conflict between syllable weight
>> and expected μμμ́ pattern in Chiwere, it could simply be that the
>> Weight-to-Stress Principle of Prince (1990) is ranked higher than the μμμ́
>> pattern, if we put this in the context of OT tableaux:
>>
>>  WSP>> μμμ́
>>    /baaxoje/ WSP μμμ́  -> a. báaxoje   *    b. baaxóje *!
>>  It is thus more important that heavy syllables attract stress than
>> adhere to the on-the-third-mora tendency we see. This hierarchy could help
>> start to explain the disconnect between when to stress what in Chiwere. I
>> haven't looked much into Hoocąk, so I don't know if this brief observation
>> would hold true there as well.
>>
>> In Mandan, there is a preference for left-aligned iambs, where long
>> vowels are well-formed iambs: LĹ, LH́, H́.
>> /istawį/  -> [(i.stá).mį] 'eye'
>> /ruwąk/ -> [(nų.mą́k)] 'man'
>> /wį-ta-wįįh-e/ -> [(pta.mį́į).he] 'my sister'
>> /pąąpi-oʔš/ -> [(pą́ą).piʔš] 'he is thin' (said to male listener)
>>
>>  The only two exceptions to this is in compounds and in words involving
>> preverbs/applicatives /i, e, aa, o/. In compounds, primary stress is
>> assigned to the leftmost-available iamb. If no iamb is available, the
>> stress does not cross the word boundary, resulting in deficient feet, i.e.,
>> a foot containing just a stressed Ĺ.
>>
>>  COMPOUNDS:
>>
>>  /paʔ/ 'head' + /hį/ 'hair' -> [(páʔ).hį] 'porcupine'
>> /wįʔ/ 'stone' + /ti/ 'house' -> [(mį́ʔ).ti] 'village'
>> /ho/ 'story' + /kirąąr/ 'tell' -> [(hó).ki.nąa.roʔš] ’he is
>> story-telling’ (said to male listener)
>>
>>  PREVERBS
>>
>>  /i/ directional + /aaki/ `be above' + /ta/ locative -> [(í).ʔaa.ki.ta]
>> ’upward’
>> /o/ inessive + /wa/ 1st active + /kųh/ `want something' + /oʔš/ ->
>> [(ó).wa.kų.hoʔš] 'I want something'
>>
>>  The stress placement in constructions with preverbs suggests that the
>> phonology is sensitive to the morphological structure of non-simplex words.
>> In Anderson’s (1992) *A-Morphous Morphology*, he calls words like those
>> in the preverbs 'composites,' meaning that there is some internal
>> structure: [ó- [wakųhoʔš]] ’I want something.’ The preverb isn't in the
>> same domain as the inflected root is, and the left-aligned iambic stress
>> assignment cannot corss over into the next domain to create a well-formed
>> iamb, due to what Ito and Mester (1999) call a CrispEdge constraint, where
>> some phonological processes are unable to cross certain boundaries.
>>
>>  I haven’t looked super seriously at other Siouan languages’ stress
>> patterns, but I think that Lakota/Dakota likewise prefers iambic feet (sans
>> the long vowels like in Mandan) except for cases of compounds and
>> composites, but I'd be interested to see how well that guess plays out.
>>
>>  -Ryan
>>
>>
>> On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 11:18 AM, Bryan James Gordon <
>> linguist at email.arizona.edu> wrote:
>>
>> It seems like there is some variation about how vowel length interacts
>> with stress. I never have managed to figure out a simple, neat explanation
>> for how it works in Ponca and Omaha. It seems like if one of the first two
>> syllables has a long vowel, that one usually gets stressed, but not always.
>> Sometimes the stress placement is more an indicator of morphology than
>> phonology, e.g. "itháe" "I speak" vs. "íthae" "you speak". And when both
>> vowels are underlyingly long it seems to me like there are morphological,
>> phonological and "free" (across- and within-speaker) variations. And then
>> there's the question of why "wa-" "them" seems to like stress more than
>> "wa-" "us". Is "wa-" "them" underlyingly long?
>> I understand the situation in Ioway, Otoe and Missouria even less. Jimm
>> may be able to help out here. I often notice when comparing recordings with
>> each other or with Jimm's dictionary that words like "Baxoje" "Ioway" are
>> stressed on different syllables by different speakers or even by the same
>> speaker in different contexts. It seems like the first vowel in "Baxoje" is
>> long, so there may be some sort of tension going on here between "Put
>> stress on the third mora" and "Put stress on the first long vowel". The
>> dictionary orthography (I think) puts stress on the first syllable.
>>  On May 21, 2014 7:55 AM, "Rory Larson" <rlarson1 at unl.edu> wrote:
>>
>>  I have a question about the Siouan accent rule that I should know, but
>> don’t.  Generally, Siouan accent likes to go on the second syllable.  Also,
>> Siouan vowels are sometimes long.  Does a long vowel count as one syllable
>> or two for purposes of the Siouan accent rule?  If we have a word with the
>> vowel of the first syllable long,
>>
>>                 cvvcv
>>
>> should Siouan accent it as
>>
>>                 cvvcV
>>
>> or as
>>
>>                 cvVcv
>>
>> ?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Rory
>>  -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's
>> DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from
>> Yahoo.com
>>
>>  -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's
>> DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from
>> Yahoo.com
>>
>>
>>  -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's
>> DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from
>> Yahoo.com
>>
>>
>>   -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's
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>
>

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From rlarson1 at unl.edu  Thu May 22 05:11:51 2014
From: rlarson1 at unl.edu (Rory Larson)
Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 05:11:51 +0000
Subject: updated SCLC schedule and directions to conference
Message-ID: <THU.22.MAY.2014.051151.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>



From: Emilia Aigotti [mailto:aigotm at yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 8:50 PM
To: Siouan Linguistics
Subject: Re: updated SCLC schedule and directions to conference

Hi. I'm sorry to be a pain, but the title of my presentation is wrong. It says 'static' and it should say 'stative'. Can you change it?
On Wednesday, May 21, 2014 7:07 PM, Meredith Johnson <majohnson25 at WISC.EDU<mailto:majohnson25 at WISC.EDU>> wrote:

Dear all,

We have just a couple of quick notes about the conference coming up this weekend.

First of all, please find attached an updated schedule for the conference. We have had two recent cancellations, which are now reflected. The new schedule also has the rooms for the conference each day and the dinner. Note that everything is happening on the third floor of Memorial Union, but we will be using two different rooms on different days.

Second, we had some questions about how to get to the conference. If you are staying at the Hampton Inn, walking directions to the union can be found here: https://www.google.com/maps/dir/440+W+Johnson+St,+Madison,+WI+53703/800+Langdon+St,+Madison,+WI+53706/@43.074369,-89.4004689,16z/data=!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x8806533699f3c09b:0x75d55a7cbeda422!2m2!1d-89.393261!2d43.072792!1m5!1m1!1s0x8807accaa0165ae1:0x25a67a47b6356ac4!2m2!1d-89.399663!2d43.076118!3e2?hl=en-US

If you are staying further away, bus schedule information can be found here: http://www.cityofmadison.com/metro/. You can also use Google Maps to plan your bus trip.

Lastly, if you are driving to the conference, note that there is no onsite parking due to construction. The closest parking ramp is the State Street Campus Ramp at 415 N Lake St. Walking directions between the ramp and the conference site can be found here:
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/State+Street+Campus+Ramp,+415+N+Lake+St,+Madison,+WI+53715/800+Langdon+St,+Madison,+WI+53706/@43.0746727,-89.4010652,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x88065334dd132d05:0xd36aee177d9a1dd!2m2!1d-89.39719!2d43.074076!1m5!1m1!1s0x8807accaa0165ae1:0x25a67a47b6356ac4!2m2!1d-89.399663!2d43.076118!3e2?hl=en-US

Any other questions, please let me know. We look forward to seeing everyone this weekend!

Best,
Meredith

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From rlarson1 at unl.edu  Thu May 22 05:22:00 2014
From: rlarson1 at unl.edu (Rory Larson)
Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 05:22:00 +0000
Subject: FW: Siouan accent and long syllables
In-Reply-To: <CADVVCOgpSYQmbjmD_kX86MomfErifP2WuAMHt2kG0fHK435x_A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <THU.22.MAY.2014.052200.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Bryan, Ryan, and Emilia, thank you very much for your kind responses and good advice.  I will plan to steer clear of the subject of the influence of vowel length on accent in Siouan in my presentation.  :)

See you all soon, hopefully!

Best,
Rory


From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Bryan James Gordon
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 10:08 PM
To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU
Subject: Re: FW: Siouan accent and long syllables


I'm aware of good arguments that vowel length doesn't really function to distinguish word pairs in Ioway, Otoe and Missouria, and very rarely serves a distinguishing function in Omaha or Ponca either. However, what I hear in listening to recordings and speakers for both groupings is a bimodal distribution of length on unaccented first syllables. If length is ever "really" distinctive, it's probably first and foremost on unaccented first syllables. At some point I'll get my act together and provide quantitative support for all this speculation.
BJG
On May 21, 2014 9:59 PM, "BJG" <egonxti at gmail.com<mailto:egonxti at gmail.com>> wrote:

I'm aware of good arguments that vowel length doesn't really function to distinguish word pairs in Ioway, Otoe and Missouria, and very rarely serves a distinguishing function in Omaha or Ponca either. However, what I hear in listening to recordings and speakers for both groupings is a bimodal distribution of length on unaccented first syllables. If length is ever "really" distinctive, it's probably first and foremost on unaccented first syllables. At some point I'll get my act together and provide quantitative support for all this speculation.

BJG
On May 21, 2014 4:19 PM, "Loren Frerichs" <lhf at unl.edu<mailto:lhf at unl.edu>> wrote:



________________________________
From: Emilia Aigotti <aigotm at yahoo.com<mailto:aigotm at yahoo.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 15:46
To: Siouan Linguistics
Subject: Re: Siouan accent and long syllables

Did you read about Dorsey's Law? Wolff 1950 has a good explanation of it although I haven't totally wrapped my head around it. Don't forget though, it is believed that Chiwere doesn't have vowel length. Here is an excerpt from my paper from Miner 1979. Not sure this helps at all. I just jumped in on this conversation…

Emilia

3.1.3 Hypotheses on Chiwere/Hoocąk Relationship.  Miner (1979) gives examples of the relationship between accent and stress patterns between Hoocąk and Chiwere.
1. third-mora accent in Winnebago  matches second-syllable accent in                                        Chiwere
2. Chiwere accented initial syllables correspond to Winnebago long                      initial syllables
3. Point two above corresponds to the instrumental prefixes.
This means, accented instrumentals in Chiwere closely resembled lengthened prefixes in Winnebago (and the same being true for unaccented and short vowels). The following is an excerpt from the chart Miner provides (p. 31) on the similarities between Hoocąk and Chiwere instrumentals.

________________________________
From: Ryan Kasak <ryan.kasak at GMAIL.COM<mailto:ryan.kasak at GMAIL.COM>>
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: Siouan accent and long syllables

Regarding Bryan's discussion of the conflict between syllable weight and expected μμμ́ pattern in Chiwere, it could simply be that the Weight-to-Stress Principle of Prince (1990) is ranked higher than the μμμ́ pattern, if we put this in the context of OT tableaux:

WSP>> μμμ́
/baaxoje/

WSP

μμμ́

->

a. báaxoje



*



b. baaxóje

*!




It is thus more important that heavy syllables attract stress than adhere to the on-the-third-mora tendency we see. This hierarchy could help start to explain the disconnect between when to stress what in Chiwere. I haven't looked much into Hoocąk, so I don't know if this brief observation would hold true there as well.

In Mandan, there is a preference for left-aligned iambs, where long vowels are well-formed iambs: LĹ, LH́, H́.
/istawį/  -> [(i.stá).mį] 'eye'
/ruwąk/ -> [(nų.mą́k)] 'man'
/wį-ta-wįįh-e/ -> [(pta.mį́į).he] 'my sister'
/pąąpi-oʔš/ -> [(pą́ą).piʔš] 'he is thin' (said to male listener)

The only two exceptions to this is in compounds and in words involving preverbs/applicatives /i, e, aa, o/. In compounds, primary stress is assigned to the leftmost-available iamb. If no iamb is available, the stress does not cross the word boundary, resulting in deficient feet, i.e., a foot containing just a stressed Ĺ.

COMPOUNDS:

/paʔ/ 'head' + /hį/ 'hair' -> [(páʔ).hį] 'porcupine'
/wįʔ/ 'stone' + /ti/ 'house' -> [(mį́ʔ).ti] 'village'
/ho/ 'story' + /kirąąr/ 'tell' -> [(hó).ki.na<http://ki.na/>̨a.ro<http://a.ro/>ʔš] ’he is story-telling’ (said to male listener)

PREVERBS

/i/ directional + /aaki/ `be above' + /ta/ locative -> [(í).ʔaa.ki.ta] ’upward’
/o/ inessive + /wa/ 1st active + /kųh/ `want something' + /oʔš/ -> [(ó).wa.kų.hoʔš] 'I want something'

The stress placement in constructions with preverbs suggests that the phonology is sensitive to the morphological structure of non-simplex words. In Anderson’s (1992) A-Morphous Morphology, he calls words like those in the preverbs 'composites,' meaning that there is some internal structure: [ó- [wakųhoʔš]] ’I want something.’ The preverb isn't in the same domain as the inflected root is, and the left-aligned iambic stress assignment cannot corss over into the next domain to create a well-formed iamb, due to what Ito and Mester (1999) call a CrispEdge constraint, where some phonological processes are unable to cross certain boundaries.

I haven’t looked super seriously at other Siouan languages’ stress patterns, but I think that Lakota/Dakota likewise prefers iambic feet (sans the long vowels like in Mandan) except for cases of compounds and composites, but I'd be interested to see how well that guess plays out.

-Ryan

On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 11:18 AM, Bryan James Gordon <linguist at email.arizona.edu<mailto:linguist at email.arizona.edu>> wrote:
It seems like there is some variation about how vowel length interacts with stress. I never have managed to figure out a simple, neat explanation for how it works in Ponca and Omaha. It seems like if one of the first two syllables has a long vowel, that one usually gets stressed, but not always. Sometimes the stress placement is more an indicator of morphology than phonology, e.g. "itháe" "I speak" vs. "íthae" "you speak". And when both vowels are underlyingly long it seems to me like there are morphological, phonological and "free" (across- and within-speaker) variations. And then there's the question of why "wa-" "them" seems to like stress more than "wa-" "us". Is "wa-" "them" underlyingly long?
I understand the situation in Ioway, Otoe and Missouria even less. Jimm may be able to help out here. I often notice when comparing recordings with each other or with Jimm's dictionary that words like "Baxoje" "Ioway" are stressed on different syllables by different speakers or even by the same speaker in different contexts. It seems like the first vowel in "Baxoje" is long, so there may be some sort of tension going on here between "Put stress on the third mora" and "Put stress on the first long vowel". The dictionary orthography (I think) puts stress on the first syllable.
On May 21, 2014 7:55 AM, "Rory Larson" <rlarson1 at unl.edu<mailto:rlarson1 at unl.edu>> wrote:
I have a question about the Siouan accent rule that I should know, but don’t.  Generally, Siouan accent likes to go on the second syllable.  Also, Siouan vowels are sometimes long.  Does a long vowel count as one syllable or two for purposes of the Siouan accent rule?  If we have a word with the vowel of the first syllable long,

                cvvcv

should Siouan accent it as

                cvvcV

or as

                cvVcv

?

Thanks,
Rory
-- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu<http://listserv.unl.edu/>. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu<http://listserv.unl.edu/> lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com
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From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU  Wed May 28 19:06:54 2014
From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson)
Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 19:06:54 +0000
Subject: Siouan accent and long syllables
Message-ID: <WED.28.MAY.2014.190654.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>



From: Emilia Aigotti [mailto:aigotm at yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2014 2:04 PM
To: Siouan Linguistics
Subject: Re: FW: Siouan accent and long syllables

On the topic of "extra long" vowels as Armik discussed in Witchita, I found a long and extra long sample of the word ná in Chiwere. The long vowel belongs to the word 'tree' and the extra long vowel is a continuative particle. The sample I have is of ná ná side by side so the comparative length is quite obvious. I am wondering if any other Siouan languages have vowel length and "extra long" length.

Emilia

On Thursday, May 22, 2014 12:23 AM, Rory Larson <rlarson1 at unl.edu<mailto:rlarson1 at unl.edu>> wrote:

Bryan, Ryan, and Emilia, thank you very much for your kind responses and good advice.  I will plan to steer clear of the subject of the influence of vowel length on accent in Siouan in my presentation.  :)

See you all soon, hopefully!

Best,
Rory


From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Bryan James Gordon
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 10:08 PM
To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU<mailto:SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>
Subject: Re: FW: Siouan accent and long syllables

I'm aware of good arguments that vowel length doesn't really function to distinguish word pairs in Ioway, Otoe and Missouria, and very rarely serves a distinguishing function in Omaha or Ponca either. However, what I hear in listening to recordings and speakers for both groupings is a bimodal distribution of length on unaccented first syllables. If length is ever "really" distinctive, it's probably first and foremost on unaccented first syllables. At some point I'll get my act together and provide quantitative support for all this speculation.
BJG
On May 21, 2014 9:59 PM, "BJG" <egonxti at gmail.com<mailto:egonxti at gmail.com>> wrote:
I'm aware of good arguments that vowel length doesn't really function to distinguish word pairs in Ioway, Otoe and Missouria, and very rarely serves a distinguishing function in Omaha or Ponca either. However, what I hear in listening to recordings and speakers for both groupings is a bimodal distribution of length on unaccented first syllables. If length is ever "really" distinctive, it's probably first and foremost on unaccented first syllables. At some point I'll get my act together and provide quantitative support for all this speculation.
BJG
On May 21, 2014 4:19 PM, "Loren Frerichs" <lhf at unl.edu<mailto:lhf at unl.edu>> wrote:

________________________________
From: Emilia Aigotti <aigotm at yahoo.com<mailto:aigotm at yahoo.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 15:46
To: Siouan Linguistics
Subject: Re: Siouan accent and long syllables

Did you read about Dorsey's Law? Wolff 1950 has a good explanation of it although I haven't totally wrapped my head around it. Don't forget though, it is believed that Chiwere doesn't have vowel length. Here is an excerpt from my paper from Miner 1979. Not sure this helps at all. I just jumped in on this conversation…

Emilia

3.1.3 Hypotheses on Chiwere/Hoocąk Relationship.  Miner (1979) gives examples of the relationship between accent and stress patterns between Hoocąk and Chiwere.
1. third-mora accent in Winnebago  matches second-syllable accent in                                        Chiwere
2. Chiwere accented initial syllables correspond to Winnebago long                      initial syllables
3. Point two above corresponds to the instrumental prefixes.
This means, accented instrumentals in Chiwere closely resembled lengthened prefixes in Winnebago (and the same being true for unaccented and short vowels). The following is an excerpt from the chart Miner provides (p. 31) on the similarities between Hoocąk and Chiwere instrumentals.

________________________________
From: Ryan Kasak <ryan.kasak at GMAIL.COM<mailto:ryan.kasak at GMAIL.COM>>
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: Siouan accent and long syllables

Regarding Bryan's discussion of the conflict between syllable weight and expected μμμ́ pattern in Chiwere, it could simply be that the Weight-to-Stress Principle of Prince (1990) is ranked higher than the μμμ́ pattern, if we put this in the context of OT tableaux:

WSP>> μμμ́
/baaxoje/

WSP

μμμ́

->

a. báaxoje



*



b. baaxóje

*!




It is thus more important that heavy syllables attract stress than adhere to the on-the-third-mora tendency we see. This hierarchy could help start to explain the disconnect between when to stress what in Chiwere. I haven't looked much into Hoocąk, so I don't know if this brief observation would hold true there as well.

In Mandan, there is a preference for left-aligned iambs, where long vowels are well-formed iambs: LĹ, LH́, H́.
/istawį/  -> [(i.stá).mį] 'eye'
/ruwąk/ -> [(nų.mą́k)] 'man'
/wį-ta-wįįh-e/ -> [(pta.mį́į).he] 'my sister'
/pąąpi-oʔš/ -> [(pą́ą).piʔš] 'he is thin' (said to male listener)

The only two exceptions to this is in compounds and in words involving preverbs/applicatives /i, e, aa, o/. In compounds, primary stress is assigned to the leftmost-available iamb. If no iamb is available, the stress does not cross the word boundary, resulting in deficient feet, i.e., a foot containing just a stressed Ĺ.

COMPOUNDS:

/paʔ/ 'head' + /hį/ 'hair' -> [(páʔ).hį] 'porcupine'
/wįʔ/ 'stone' + /ti/ 'house' -> [(mį́ʔ).ti] 'village'
/ho/ 'story' + /kirąąr/ 'tell' -> [(hó).ki.na<http://ki.na/>̨a.ro<http://a.ro/>ʔš] ’he is story-telling’ (said to male listener)

PREVERBS

/i/ directional + /aaki/ `be above' + /ta/ locative -> [(í).ʔaa.ki.ta] ’upward’
/o/ inessive + /wa/ 1st active + /kųh/ `want something' + /oʔš/ -> [(ó).wa.kų.hoʔš] 'I want something'

The stress placement in constructions with preverbs suggests that the phonology is sensitive to the morphological structure of non-simplex words. In Anderson’s (1992) A-Morphous Morphology, he calls words like those in the preverbs 'composites,' meaning that there is some internal structure: [ó- [wakųhoʔš]] ’I want something.’ The preverb isn't in the same domain as the inflected root is, and the left-aligned iambic stress assignment cannot corss over into the next domain to create a well-formed iamb, due to what Ito and Mester (1999) call a CrispEdge constraint, where some phonological processes are unable to cross certain boundaries.

I haven’t looked super seriously at other Siouan languages’ stress patterns, but I think that Lakota/Dakota likewise prefers iambic feet (sans the long vowels like in Mandan) except for cases of compounds and composites, but I'd be interested to see how well that guess plays out.

-Ryan

On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 11:18 AM, Bryan James Gordon <linguist at email.arizona.edu<mailto:linguist at email.arizona.edu>> wrote:
It seems like there is some variation about how vowel length interacts with stress. I never have managed to figure out a simple, neat explanation for how it works in Ponca and Omaha. It seems like if one of the first two syllables has a long vowel, that one usually gets stressed, but not always. Sometimes the stress placement is more an indicator of morphology than phonology, e.g. "itháe" "I speak" vs. "íthae" "you speak". And when both vowels are underlyingly long it seems to me like there are morphological, phonological and "free" (across- and within-speaker) variations. And then there's the question of why "wa-" "them" seems to like stress more than "wa-" "us". Is "wa-" "them" underlyingly long?
I understand the situation in Ioway, Otoe and Missouria even less. Jimm may be able to help out here. I often notice when comparing recordings with each other or with Jimm's dictionary that words like "Baxoje" "Ioway" are stressed on different syllables by different speakers or even by the same speaker in different contexts. It seems like the first vowel in "Baxoje" is long, so there may be some sort of tension going on here between "Put stress on the third mora" and "Put stress on the first long vowel". The dictionary orthography (I think) puts stress on the first syllable.
On May 21, 2014 7:55 AM, "Rory Larson" <rlarson1 at unl.edu<mailto:rlarson1 at unl.edu>> wrote:
I have a question about the Siouan accent rule that I should know, but don’t.  Generally, Siouan accent likes to go on the second syllable.  Also, Siouan vowels are sometimes long.  Does a long vowel count as one syllable or two for purposes of the Siouan accent rule?  If we have a word with the vowel of the first syllable long,

                cvvcv

should Siouan accent it as

                cvvcV

or as

                cvVcv

?

Thanks,
Rory
-- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu<http://listserv.unl.edu/>. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu<http://listserv.unl.edu/> lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com
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From rlarson1 at unl.edu  Wed May 28 20:05:37 2014
From: rlarson1 at unl.edu (Rory Larson)
Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 20:05:37 +0000
Subject: FW: Siouan accent and long syllables
Message-ID: <WED.28.MAY.2014.200537.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>



From: Emilia Aigotti [mailto:aigotm at yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2014 2:59 PM
To: Siouan Linguistics
Subject: Re: Siouan accent and long syllables

This sample is phrase initial actually. And I would be game for anything you suggest Bryan. The only problem is that the elicitations I have are single words, phrases or sentences. There is nothing longer. Although I have the 7 minute video (story) from Saul I haven't looked at yet. But that sample is comparatively small and limited.

My second inquiry is looking into the Chiwere word 'waruje' which has various accent marks and numerous meanings and word forms. I know this is Proto-Siouan as well. So any insights from others into this word would be helpful as I begin.

On Wednesday, May 28, 2014 2:44 PM, Bryan James Gordon <linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU<mailto:linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU>> wrote:

Thanks for noticing this Emilia!
We need to run some quantitative analysis to figure out whether vowel length distinctions like this are categorical, let alone phonemic. In the case of final particles like continuative "na", a likely explanation is phrase-final lengthening, which is an ordinary process in all languages as far as I know. Phrase-final lengthening is our tendency to slow down towards the end of a prosodic unit (a sort of melodic/rhythmic "chunk"). Since final particles are often at the end of a prosodic unit, quantitative analysis would look like finding a sample that includes a good number of them both at the end of a prosodic unit and in the middle of one, as well as sampling the "wood" examples both at the end of a prosodic unit and in the middle of one.
It's hard to do this in a corpus by just looking at one example pair like "na" vs. "na", because corpora don't tend to have enough examples in enough contexts to rule out huge sampling biasses and unanticipated confounds. Instead, what we need to do (maybe you and me could collaborate on this Emilia) is look at entire groups of words and morphemes and see if there's evidence for a categorical length distinction. Acoustic fun!
Bryan
On May 28, 2014 2:12 PM, "Rory Larson" <rlarson1 at unl.edu<mailto:rlarson1 at unl.edu>> wrote:


From: Emilia Aigotti [mailto:aigotm at yahoo.com<mailto:aigotm at yahoo.com>]
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2014 2:04 PM
To: Siouan Linguistics
Subject: Re: FW: Siouan accent and long syllables

On the topic of "extra long" vowels as Armik discussed in Witchita, I found a long and extra long sample of the word ná in Chiwere. The long vowel belongs to the word 'tree' and the extra long vowel is a continuative particle. The sample I have is of ná ná side by side so the comparative length is quite obvious. I am wondering if any other Siouan languages have vowel length and "extra long" length.

Emilia

On Thursday, May 22, 2014 12:23 AM, Rory Larson <rlarson1 at unl.edu<mailto:rlarson1 at unl.edu>> wrote:

Bryan, Ryan, and Emilia, thank you very much for your kind responses and good advice.  I will plan to steer clear of the subject of the influence of vowel length on accent in Siouan in my presentation.  :)

See you all soon, hopefully!

Best,
Rory


From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Bryan James Gordon
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 10:08 PM
To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU<mailto:SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>
Subject: Re: FW: Siouan accent and long syllables

I'm aware of good arguments that vowel length doesn't really function to distinguish word pairs in Ioway, Otoe and Missouria, and very rarely serves a distinguishing function in Omaha or Ponca either. However, what I hear in listening to recordings and speakers for both groupings is a bimodal distribution of length on unaccented first syllables. If length is ever "really" distinctive, it's probably first and foremost on unaccented first syllables. At some point I'll get my act together and provide quantitative support for all this speculation.
BJG
On May 21, 2014 9:59 PM, "BJG" <egonxti at gmail.com<mailto:egonxti at gmail.com>> wrote:
I'm aware of good arguments that vowel length doesn't really function to distinguish word pairs in Ioway, Otoe and Missouria, and very rarely serves a distinguishing function in Omaha or Ponca either. However, what I hear in listening to recordings and speakers for both groupings is a bimodal distribution of length on unaccented first syllables. If length is ever "really" distinctive, it's probably first and foremost on unaccented first syllables. At some point I'll get my act together and provide quantitative support for all this speculation.
BJG
On May 21, 2014 4:19 PM, "Loren Frerichs" <lhf at unl.edu<mailto:lhf at unl.edu>> wrote:

________________________________
From: Emilia Aigotti <aigotm at yahoo.com<mailto:aigotm at yahoo.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 15:46
To: Siouan Linguistics
Subject: Re: Siouan accent and long syllables

Did you read about Dorsey's Law? Wolff 1950 has a good explanation of it although I haven't totally wrapped my head around it. Don't forget though, it is believed that Chiwere doesn't have vowel length. Here is an excerpt from my paper from Miner 1979. Not sure this helps at all. I just jumped in on this conversation…

Emilia

3.1.3 Hypotheses on Chiwere/Hoocąk Relationship.  Miner (1979) gives examples of the relationship between accent and stress patterns between Hoocąk and Chiwere.
1. third-mora accent in Winnebago  matches second-syllable accent in                                        Chiwere
2. Chiwere accented initial syllables correspond to Winnebago long                      initial syllables
3. Point two above corresponds to the instrumental prefixes.
This means, accented instrumentals in Chiwere closely resembled lengthened prefixes in Winnebago (and the same being true for unaccented and short vowels). The following is an excerpt from the chart Miner provides (p. 31) on the similarities between Hoocąk and Chiwere instrumentals.

________________________________
From: Ryan Kasak <ryan.kasak at GMAIL.COM<mailto:ryan.kasak at GMAIL.COM>>
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: Siouan accent and long syllables

Regarding Bryan's discussion of the conflict between syllable weight and expected μμμ́ pattern in Chiwere, it could simply be that the Weight-to-Stress Principle of Prince (1990) is ranked higher than the μμμ́ pattern, if we put this in the context of OT tableaux:

WSP>> μμμ́
/baaxoje/

WSP

μμμ́

->

a. báaxoje



*



b. baaxóje

*!




It is thus more important that heavy syllables attract stress than adhere to the on-the-third-mora tendency we see. This hierarchy could help start to explain the disconnect between when to stress what in Chiwere. I haven't looked much into Hoocąk, so I don't know if this brief observation would hold true there as well.

In Mandan, there is a preference for left-aligned iambs, where long vowels are well-formed iambs: LĹ, LH́, H́.
/istawį/  -> [(i.stá).mį] 'eye'
/ruwąk/ -> [(nų.mą́k)] 'man'
/wį-ta-wįįh-e/ -> [(pta.mį́į).he] 'my sister'
/pąąpi-oʔš/ -> [(pą́ą).piʔš] 'he is thin' (said to male listener)

The only two exceptions to this is in compounds and in words involving preverbs/applicatives /i, e, aa, o/. In compounds, primary stress is assigned to the leftmost-available iamb. If no iamb is available, the stress does not cross the word boundary, resulting in deficient feet, i.e., a foot containing just a stressed Ĺ.

COMPOUNDS:

/paʔ/ 'head' + /hį/ 'hair' -> [(páʔ).hį] 'porcupine'
/wįʔ/ 'stone' + /ti/ 'house' -> [(mį́ʔ).ti] 'village'
/ho/ 'story' + /kirąąr/ 'tell' -> [(hó).ki.na<http://ki.na/>̨a.ro<http://a.ro/>ʔš] ’he is story-telling’ (said to male listener)

PREVERBS

/i/ directional + /aaki/ `be above' + /ta/ locative -> [(í).ʔaa.ki.ta] ’upward’
/o/ inessive + /wa/ 1st active + /kųh/ `want something' + /oʔš/ -> [(ó).wa.kų.hoʔš] 'I want something'

The stress placement in constructions with preverbs suggests that the phonology is sensitive to the morphological structure of non-simplex words. In Anderson’s (1992) A-Morphous Morphology, he calls words like those in the preverbs 'composites,' meaning that there is some internal structure: [ó- [wakųhoʔš]] ’I want something.’ The preverb isn't in the same domain as the inflected root is, and the left-aligned iambic stress assignment cannot corss over into the next domain to create a well-formed iamb, due to what Ito and Mester (1999) call a CrispEdge constraint, where some phonological processes are unable to cross certain boundaries.

I haven’t looked super seriously at other Siouan languages’ stress patterns, but I think that Lakota/Dakota likewise prefers iambic feet (sans the long vowels like in Mandan) except for cases of compounds and composites, but I'd be interested to see how well that guess plays out.

-Ryan

On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 11:18 AM, Bryan James Gordon <linguist at email.arizona.edu<mailto:linguist at email.arizona.edu>> wrote:
It seems like there is some variation about how vowel length interacts with stress. I never have managed to figure out a simple, neat explanation for how it works in Ponca and Omaha. It seems like if one of the first two syllables has a long vowel, that one usually gets stressed, but not always. Sometimes the stress placement is more an indicator of morphology than phonology, e.g. "itháe" "I speak" vs. "íthae" "you speak". And when both vowels are underlyingly long it seems to me like there are morphological, phonological and "free" (across- and within-speaker) variations. And then there's the question of why "wa-" "them" seems to like stress more than "wa-" "us". Is "wa-" "them" underlyingly long?
I understand the situation in Ioway, Otoe and Missouria even less. Jimm may be able to help out here. I often notice when comparing recordings with each other or with Jimm's dictionary that words like "Baxoje" "Ioway" are stressed on different syllables by different speakers or even by the same speaker in different contexts. It seems like the first vowel in "Baxoje" is long, so there may be some sort of tension going on here between "Put stress on the third mora" and "Put stress on the first long vowel". The dictionary orthography (I think) puts stress on the first syllable.
On May 21, 2014 7:55 AM, "Rory Larson" <rlarson1 at unl.edu<mailto:rlarson1 at unl.edu>> wrote:
I have a question about the Siouan accent rule that I should know, but don’t.  Generally, Siouan accent likes to go on the second syllable.  Also, Siouan vowels are sometimes long.  Does a long vowel count as one syllable or two for purposes of the Siouan accent rule?  If we have a word with the vowel of the first syllable long,

                cvvcv

should Siouan accent it as

                cvvcV

or as

                cvVcv

?

Thanks,
Rory
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From linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU  Wed May 28 19:44:07 2014
From: linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU (Bryan James Gordon)
Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 12:44:07 -0700
Subject: Siouan accent and long syllables
In-Reply-To: <eb2ef5e3d5174de5a13c1e874e826b1f@DM2PR08MB525.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <WED.28.MAY.2014.124407.0700.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Thanks for noticing this Emilia!

We need to run some quantitative analysis to figure out whether vowel
length distinctions like this are categorical, let alone phonemic. In the
case of final particles like continuative "na", a likely explanation is
phrase-final lengthening, which is an ordinary process in all languages as
far as I know. Phrase-final lengthening is our tendency to slow down
towards the end of a prosodic unit (a sort of melodic/rhythmic "chunk").
Since final particles are often at the end of a prosodic unit, quantitative
analysis would look like finding a sample that includes a good number of
them both at the end of a prosodic unit and in the middle of one, as well
as sampling the "wood" examples both at the end of a prosodic unit and in
the middle of one.

It's hard to do this in a corpus by just looking at one example pair like
"na" vs. "na", because corpora don't tend to have enough examples in enough
contexts to rule out huge sampling biasses and unanticipated confounds.
Instead, what we need to do (maybe you and me could collaborate on this
Emilia) is look at entire groups of words and morphemes and see if there's
evidence for a categorical length distinction. Acoustic fun!

Bryan
On May 28, 2014 2:12 PM, "Rory Larson" <rlarson1 at unl.edu> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* Emilia Aigotti [mailto:aigotm at yahoo.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 28, 2014 2:04 PM
> *To:* Siouan Linguistics
> *Subject:* Re: FW: Siouan accent and long syllables
>
>
>
> On the topic of "extra long" vowels as Armik discussed in Witchita, I
> found a long and extra long sample of the word *ná* in Chiwere. The long
> vowel belongs to the word 'tree' and the extra long vowel is a continuative
> particle. The sample I have is of *ná ná* side by side so the comparative
> length is quite obvious. I am wondering if any other Siouan languages have
> vowel length and "extra long" length.
>
>
>
> *Emilia*
>
>
>
> On Thursday, May 22, 2014 12:23 AM, Rory Larson <rlarson1 at unl.edu> wrote:
>
>
>
> Bryan, Ryan, and Emilia, thank you very much for your kind responses and
> good advice.  I will plan to steer clear of the subject of the influence of
> vowel length on accent in Siouan in my presentation.  :)
>
>
>
> See you all soon, hopefully!
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Rory
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>]
> *On Behalf Of *Bryan James Gordon
> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 21, 2014 10:08 PM
> *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU
> *Subject:* Re: FW: Siouan accent and long syllables
>
>
>
> I'm aware of good arguments that vowel length doesn't really function to
> distinguish word pairs in Ioway, Otoe and Missouria, and very rarely serves
> a distinguishing function in Omaha or Ponca either. However, what I hear in
> listening to recordings and speakers for both groupings is a bimodal
> distribution of length on unaccented first syllables. If length is ever
> "really" distinctive, it's probably first and foremost on unaccented first
> syllables. At some point I'll get my act together and provide quantitative
> support for all this speculation.
> BJG
>
> On May 21, 2014 9:59 PM, "BJG" <egonxti at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'm aware of good arguments that vowel length doesn't really function to
> distinguish word pairs in Ioway, Otoe and Missouria, and very rarely serves
> a distinguishing function in Omaha or Ponca either. However, what I hear in
> listening to recordings and speakers for both groupings is a bimodal
> distribution of length on unaccented first syllables. If length is ever
> "really" distinctive, it's probably first and foremost on unaccented first
> syllables. At some point I'll get my act together and provide quantitative
> support for all this speculation.
>
> BJG
>
> On May 21, 2014 4:19 PM, "Loren Frerichs" <lhf at unl.edu> wrote:
>
>
>   ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Emilia Aigotti <aigotm at yahoo.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 21, 2014 15:46
> *To:* Siouan Linguistics
> *Subject:* Re: Siouan accent and long syllables
>
>
>
> Did you read about Dorsey's Law? Wolff 1950 has a good explanation of it
> although I haven't totally wrapped my head around it. Don't forget though,
> it is believed that Chiwere doesn't have vowel length. Here is an excerpt
> from my paper from Miner 1979. Not sure this helps at all. I just jumped in
> on this conversation…
>
>
>
> Emilia
>
>
>
> *3.1.3 Hypotheses on Chiwere/Hoocąk Relationship.  *Miner (1979) gives
> examples of the relationship between accent and stress patterns between
> Hoocąk and Chiwere.
>
> 1. third-mora accent in Winnebago  matches second-syllable accent in
>                                        Chiwere
>
> 2. Chiwere accented initial syllables correspond to Winnebago long
>                      initial syllables
>
> 3. Point two above corresponds to the instrumental prefixes.
>
> This means, accented instrumentals in Chiwere closely resembled lengthened
> prefixes in Winnebago (and the same being true for unaccented and short
> vowels). The following is an excerpt from the chart Miner provides (p. 31)
> on the similarities between Hoocąk and Chiwere instrumentals.
>
>
>     ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Ryan Kasak <ryan.kasak at GMAIL.COM>
> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 21, 2014 2:36 PM
> *Subject:* Re: Siouan accent and long syllables
>
>
>
> Regarding Bryan's discussion of the conflict between syllable weight and
> expected μμμ́ pattern in Chiwere, it could simply be that the
> Weight-to-Stress Principle of Prince (1990) is ranked higher than the μμμ́
> pattern, if we put this in the context of OT tableaux:
>
>
>
> WSP>> μμμ́
>
> /baaxoje/
>
> WSP
>
> μμμ́
>
> ->
>
> a. báaxoje
>
>
>
> *
>
>
>
> b. baaxóje
>
> *!
>
>
>
>
>
> It is thus more important that heavy syllables attract stress than adhere
> to the on-the-third-mora tendency we see. This hierarchy could help start
> to explain the disconnect between when to stress what in Chiwere. I haven't
> looked much into Hoocąk, so I don't know if this brief observation would
> hold true there as well.
>
>
> In Mandan, there is a preference for left-aligned iambs, where long vowels
> are well-formed iambs: LĹ, LH́, H́.
>
> /istawį/  -> [(i.stá).mį] 'eye'
>
> /ruwąk/ -> [(nų.mą́k)] 'man'
>
> /wį-ta-wįįh-e/ -> [(pta.mį́į).he] 'my sister'
>
> /pąąpi-oʔš/ -> [(pą́ą).piʔš] 'he is thin' (said to male listener)
>
>
>
> The only two exceptions to this is in compounds and in words involving
> preverbs/applicatives /i, e, aa, o/. In compounds, primary stress is
> assigned to the leftmost-available iamb. If no iamb is available, the
> stress does not cross the word boundary, resulting in deficient feet, i.e.,
> a foot containing just a stressed Ĺ.
>
>
>
> COMPOUNDS:
>
>
>
> /paʔ/ 'head' + /hį/ 'hair' -> [(páʔ).hį] 'porcupine'
>
> /wįʔ/ 'stone' + /ti/ 'house' -> [(mį́ʔ).ti] 'village'
>
> /ho/ 'story' + /kirąąr/ 'tell' -> [(hó).ki.nąa.roʔš] ’he is
> story-telling’ (said to male listener)
>
>
>
> PREVERBS
>
>
>
> /i/ directional + /aaki/ `be above' + /ta/ locative -> [(í).ʔaa.ki.ta]
> ’upward’
>
> /o/ inessive + /wa/ 1st active + /kųh/ `want something' + /oʔš/ ->
> [(ó).wa.kų.hoʔš] 'I want something'
>
>
>
> The stress placement in constructions with preverbs suggests that the
> phonology is sensitive to the morphological structure of non-simplex words.
> In Anderson’s (1992) *A-Morphous Morphology*, he calls words like those
> in the preverbs 'composites,' meaning that there is some internal
> structure: [ó- [wakųhoʔš]] ’I want something.’ The preverb isn't in the
> same domain as the inflected root is, and the left-aligned iambic stress
> assignment cannot corss over into the next domain to create a well-formed
> iamb, due to what Ito and Mester (1999) call a CrispEdge constraint, where
> some phonological processes are unable to cross certain boundaries.
>
>
>
> I haven’t looked super seriously at other Siouan languages’ stress
> patterns, but I think that Lakota/Dakota likewise prefers iambic feet (sans
> the long vowels like in Mandan) except for cases of compounds and
> composites, but I'd be interested to see how well that guess plays out.
>
>
>
> -Ryan
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 11:18 AM, Bryan James Gordon <
> linguist at email.arizona.edu> wrote:
>
> It seems like there is some variation about how vowel length interacts
> with stress. I never have managed to figure out a simple, neat explanation
> for how it works in Ponca and Omaha. It seems like if one of the first two
> syllables has a long vowel, that one usually gets stressed, but not always.
> Sometimes the stress placement is more an indicator of morphology than
> phonology, e.g. "itháe" "I speak" vs. "íthae" "you speak". And when both
> vowels are underlyingly long it seems to me like there are morphological,
> phonological and "free" (across- and within-speaker) variations. And then
> there's the question of why "wa-" "them" seems to like stress more than
> "wa-" "us". Is "wa-" "them" underlyingly long?
>
> I understand the situation in Ioway, Otoe and Missouria even less. Jimm
> may be able to help out here. I often notice when comparing recordings with
> each other or with Jimm's dictionary that words like "Baxoje" "Ioway" are
> stressed on different syllables by different speakers or even by the same
> speaker in different contexts. It seems like the first vowel in "Baxoje" is
> long, so there may be some sort of tension going on here between "Put
> stress on the third mora" and "Put stress on the first long vowel". The
> dictionary orthography (I think) puts stress on the first syllable.
>
> On May 21, 2014 7:55 AM, "Rory Larson" <rlarson1 at unl.edu> wrote:
>
> I have a question about the Siouan accent rule that I should know, but
> don’t.  Generally, Siouan accent likes to go on the second syllable.  Also,
> Siouan vowels are sometimes long.  Does a long vowel count as one syllable
> or two for purposes of the Siouan accent rule?  If we have a word with the
> vowel of the first syllable long,
>
>
>
>                 cvvcv
>
>
>
> should Siouan accent it as
>
>
>
>                 cvvcV
>
>
>
> or as
>
>
>
>                 cvVcv
>
>
>
> ?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Rory
>
> -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's
> DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from
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> -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's
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>
>
>
> -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's
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>
>
>
> -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's
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From majohnson25 at WISC.EDU  Thu May  1 20:36:08 2014
From: majohnson25 at WISC.EDU (Meredith Johnson)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2014 15:36:08 -0500
Subject: reminder about t-shirts for SCLC
Message-ID: <THU.1.MAY.2014.153608.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Hello everyone,

We will be ordering conference t-shirts next week, so this is your last week to let us know in advance what size you want, if you know you want to purchase a shirt. Please let us know no later than May 4. 

Also, we have decided to offering two color options:  red tee with white writing, or black tee with red writing.  If you have already let us know that you want a shirt, you can write and let us know if you have a color preference as well. We will also follow up with individuals about their color preferences.

We will have some shirts available onsite as well, but this is your chance to be picky!

See you all very soon!

Best,
Meredith

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From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM  Thu May  1 20:50:58 2014
From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2014 15:50:58 -0500
Subject: reminder about t-shirts for SCLC
In-Reply-To: <6CCE7621-C9E7-4CB5-A072-9493EB142C1E@wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.1.MAY.2014.155058.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

I'll take a red one.  Thanks!

Dave

David Kaufman
Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas
Director, Kaw Nation Language Program


On Thu, May 1, 2014 at 3:36 PM, Meredith Johnson <majohnson25 at wisc.edu>wrote:

> Hello everyone,
>
> We will be ordering conference t-shirts next week, so this is your last
> week to let us know in advance what size you want, if you know you want to
> purchase a shirt. Please let us know *no later than May 4*.
>
> Also, we have decided to offering *two color options*:  red tee with
> white writing, or black tee with red writing.  If you have already let us
> know that you want a shirt, you can write and let us know if you have a
> color preference as well. We will also follow up with individuals about
> their color preferences.
>
> We will have some shirts available onsite as well, but this is your chance
> to be picky!
>
> See you all very soon!
>
> Best,
> Meredith
> -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's
> DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from
> Yahoo.com

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From bdrosen at WISC.EDU  Fri May  9 16:22:27 2014
From: bdrosen at WISC.EDU (Bryan Rosen)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2014 11:22:27 -0500
Subject: SCLC conference dinner
In-Reply-To: <2EDA2C86-D2A8-4C84-B647-F76831D33834@wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.9.MAY.2014.112227.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Hi all,

My apologies for sending to everyone. :(

Best,

Bryan

On May 9, 2014, at 11:20 AM, Bryan Rosen wrote:

> hey!
> 
> when did you want to meet?
> 
> B
> On May 9, 2014, at 10:52 AM, Meredith Johnson wrote:
> 
>> Dear all,
>> 
>> The conference dinner has finally been confirmed! The conference dinner will take place on Saturday, May 24th from 6:30-8:30 in Memorial Union, which is the same building that the conference sessions will be held in.
>> 
>> The majority of the cost of the dinner is covered by a generous grant from the Ho-Chunk nation, so the dinner will cost only $5 per person. However, due to budget reasons, we only have space for 30 people at the dinner. To reserve a spot at the dinner, please e-mail me at majohnson25 at wisc.edu. No advance payment is necessary; you can pay and receive your ticket when you check-in at the conference. 
>> 
>> We are looking forward to seeing everyone soon! Please let me know if you have any questions.
>> 
>> All the best,
>> Meredith
>> -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com
> 
> -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com


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From majohnson25 at WISC.EDU  Fri May  9 15:52:01 2014
From: majohnson25 at WISC.EDU (Meredith Johnson)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2014 10:52:01 -0500
Subject: SCLC conference dinner
Message-ID: <FRI.9.MAY.2014.105201.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Dear all,

The conference dinner has finally been confirmed! The conference dinner will take place on Saturday, May 24th from 6:30-8:30 in Memorial Union, which is the same building that the conference sessions will be held in.

The majority of the cost of the dinner is covered by a generous grant from the Ho-Chunk nation, so the dinner will cost only $5 per person. However, due to budget reasons, we only have space for 30 people at the dinner. To reserve a spot at the dinner, please e-mail me at majohnson25 at wisc.edu. No advance payment is necessary; you can pay and receive your ticket when you check-in at the conference. 

We are looking forward to seeing everyone soon! Please let me know if you have any questions.

All the best,
Meredith

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From bdrosen at WISC.EDU  Fri May  9 16:20:16 2014
From: bdrosen at WISC.EDU (Bryan Rosen)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2014 11:20:16 -0500
Subject: SCLC conference dinner
In-Reply-To: <1B1B4D16-475B-4AD7-8C65-0DE9F582A701@wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.9.MAY.2014.112016.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

hey!

when did you want to meet?

B
On May 9, 2014, at 10:52 AM, Meredith Johnson wrote:

> Dear all,
> 
> The conference dinner has finally been confirmed! The conference dinner will take place on Saturday, May 24th from 6:30-8:30 in Memorial Union, which is the same building that the conference sessions will be held in.
> 
> The majority of the cost of the dinner is covered by a generous grant from the Ho-Chunk nation, so the dinner will cost only $5 per person. However, due to budget reasons, we only have space for 30 people at the dinner. To reserve a spot at the dinner, please e-mail me at majohnson25 at wisc.edu. No advance payment is necessary; you can pay and receive your ticket when you check-in at the conference. 
> 
> We are looking forward to seeing everyone soon! Please let me know if you have any questions.
> 
> All the best,
> Meredith
> -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com


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From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM  Fri May  9 16:43:40 2014
From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2014 11:43:40 -0500
Subject: SCLC conference dinner
In-Reply-To: <C8221CA0-D738-4B9B-A1A7-C771A9DE11C9@wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.9.MAY.2014.114340.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Good, now I don't feel so bad since I responded to the dinner invitation on
the List rather than privately.  : )  ah well.

Dave

David Kaufman
Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas
Director, Kaw Nation Language Program


On Fri, May 9, 2014 at 11:22 AM, Bryan Rosen <bdrosen at wisc.edu> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> My apologies for sending to everyone. :(
>
> Best,
>
> Bryan
>
> On May 9, 2014, at 11:20 AM, Bryan Rosen wrote:
>
> hey!
>
> when did you want to meet?
>
> B
> On May 9, 2014, at 10:52 AM, Meredith Johnson wrote:
>
> Dear all,
>
> The conference dinner has finally been confirmed! The conference dinner
> will take place on *Saturday, May 24th from 6:30-8:30 in Memorial Union*,
> which is the same building that the conference sessions will be held in.
>
> The majority of the cost of the dinner is covered by a generous grant from
> the Ho-Chunk nation, so the dinner will cost only $5 per person. However,
> due to budget reasons, we only have space for 30 people at the dinner. *To
> reserve a spot at the dinner, please e-mail me at majohnson25 at wisc.edu
> <majohnson25 at wisc.edu>*. No advance payment is necessary; you can pay and
> receive your ticket when you check-in at the conference.
>
> We are looking forward to seeing everyone soon! Please let me know if you
> have any questions.
>
> All the best,
> Meredith
> -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's
> DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from
> Yahoo.com
>
>
> -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's
> DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from
> Yahoo.com
>
>
> -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's
> DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from
> Yahoo.com
>

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From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM  Fri May  9 15:57:59 2014
From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2014 10:57:59 -0500
Subject: SCLC conference dinner
In-Reply-To: <1B1B4D16-475B-4AD7-8C65-0DE9F582A701@wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.9.MAY.2014.105759.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Hi Meredith,

Count me in for the dinner.  Thanks.

Dave

David Kaufman
Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas
Director, Kaw Nation Language Program


On Fri, May 9, 2014 at 10:52 AM, Meredith Johnson <majohnson25 at wisc.edu>wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> The conference dinner has finally been confirmed! The conference dinner
> will take place on *Saturday, May 24th from 6:30-8:30 in Memorial Union*,
> which is the same building that the conference sessions will be held in.
>
> The majority of the cost of the dinner is covered by a generous grant from
> the Ho-Chunk nation, so the dinner will cost only $5 per person. However,
> due to budget reasons, we only have space for 30 people at the dinner. *To
> reserve a spot at the dinner, please e-mail me at majohnson25 at wisc.edu
> <majohnson25 at wisc.edu>*. No advance payment is necessary; you can pay and
> receive your ticket when you check-in at the conference.
>
> We are looking forward to seeing everyone soon! Please let me know if you
> have any questions.
>
> All the best,
> Meredith
> -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's
> DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from
> Yahoo.com

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From jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM  Sat May 10 00:28:37 2014
From: jgoodtracks at GMAIL.COM (Jimm GoodTracks)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2014 18:28:37 -0600
Subject: SCLC conference dinner
In-Reply-To: <1B1B4D16-475B-4AD7-8C65-0DE9F582A701@wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.9.MAY.2014.182837.0600.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Please.reservr
G
Four.dinner.placcrs.f Po r.us
Jimm.goodttackd
 On May 9, 2014 11:56 AM, "Meredith Johnson" <majohnson25 at wisc.edu> wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> The conference dinner has finally been confirmed! The conference dinner
> will take place on *Saturday, May 24th from 6:30-8:30 in Memorial Union*,
> which is the same building that the conference sessions will be held in.
>
> The majority of the cost of the dinner is covered by a generous grant from
> the Ho-Chunk nation, so the dinner will cost only $5 per person. However,
> due to budget reasons, we only have space for 30 people at the dinner. *To
> reserve a spot at the dinner, please e-mail me at majohnson25 at wisc.edu
> <majohnson25 at wisc.edu>*. No advance payment is necessary; you can pay and
> receive your ticket when you check-in at the conference.
>
> We are looking forward to seeing everyone soon! Please let me know if you
> have any questions.
>
> All the best,
> Meredith
> -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's
> DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from
> Yahoo.com

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From jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU  Wed May 14 13:51:25 2014
From: jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU (Mcbride, Justin)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2014 08:51:25 -0500
Subject: archived Osage?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.64.1405132101490.17009@spot.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.14.MAY.2014.085125.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

David,

If there are transcriptions available, I've never seen them. Still, if
memory serves, her dictionary provides evidence of a rather extensive
coding system after each example pulled from her data. I believe early
drafts of her grammar did, too. While this doesn't necessarily prove that
she transcribed the whole of her recordings, it does suggest that she at
least worked out a coding scheme for doing so. It's completely possible,
then, that there are transcriptions (full or partial) floating around
somewhere. I don't know who might have them if they do exist. Hadn't she
planned to donate much or all of her materials to the Osage Nation for safe
keeping after her death? If so, I don't know if that ever happened, but
there are folks here in town I could ask.

All the best,
-Justin


On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 8:02 AM, ROOD DAVID S <david.rood at colorado.edu>wrote:

> Hi, everyone,
>         When Carolyn Quintero was working on her Osage grammar and
> dictionary, she had funding from NSF for which I was the nominal PI.  In
> part because of that connection, she gave me a set of over 100 cassette
> tapes of her interviews with speakers and some of their stories, as well as
> some miscellaneous stuff (like the recording of a radio program).  Does
> anyone on the list know whether these were ever transcribed and if so,
> where those transcriptions might be?  It's possible that Carolyn just used
> her knowledge of the spoken language to pick examples off the tapes, rather
> than making full written transcriptions.  However, it's going to be hard
> for anyone else to make use of these tapes if we don't have the
> transcriptions.
>         Thanks for any help you can give us.
>         Best,
>         David
>
> David S. Rood
> Dept. of Linguistics
> Univ. of Colorado
> 295 UCB
> Boulder, CO 80309-0295
> USA
> rood at colorado.edu
>
> --
> Manage your subscription at  http://listserv.unl.edu.
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> incoming email from Yahoo.com
>

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From david.rood at COLORADO.EDU  Wed May 14 13:02:41 2014
From: david.rood at COLORADO.EDU (ROOD DAVID S)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2014 07:02:41 -0600
Subject: archived Osage?
Message-ID: <WED.14.MAY.2014.070241.0600.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Hi, everyone,
 	When Carolyn Quintero was working on her Osage grammar and 
dictionary, she had funding from NSF for which I was the nominal PI.  In 
part because of that connection, she gave me a set of over 100 cassette 
tapes of her interviews with speakers and some of their stories, as well 
as some miscellaneous stuff (like the recording of a radio program).  Does 
anyone on the list know whether these were ever transcribed and if so, 
where those transcriptions might be?  It's possible that Carolyn just used 
her knowledge of the spoken language to pick examples off the tapes, 
rather than making full written transcriptions.  However, it's going to be 
hard for anyone else to make use of these tapes if we don't have the 
transcriptions.
 	Thanks for any help you can give us.
 	Best,
 	David

David S. Rood
Dept. of Linguistics
Univ. of Colorado
295 UCB
Boulder, CO 80309-0295
USA
rood at colorado.edu

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From rlarson1 at unl.edu  Wed May 14 15:49:40 2014
From: rlarson1 at unl.edu (Rory Larson)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2014 15:49:40 +0000
Subject: archived Osage?
In-Reply-To: <CAHmQnNaOz5vin=eXbxvYgLHiCiFFdvzCbAvbQ1XZh07W_QUk3Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <WED.14.MAY.2014.154940.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

In any case, we should probably make sure this material is copied to some electronic medium more permanent than cassette tapes.  Perhaps the Osage Nation or Carolyn have already done this.  If not, I would think that would be a high priority.  Any sense of what the recordings are like?  Are they mostly Osage, or mostly English-based discussion and elicitation?

Best,
Rory


From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mcbride, Justin
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2014 8:51 AM
To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU
Subject: Re: archived Osage?

David,

If there are transcriptions available, I've never seen them. Still, if memory serves, her dictionary provides evidence of a rather extensive coding system after each example pulled from her data. I believe early drafts of her grammar did, too. While this doesn't necessarily prove that she transcribed the whole of her recordings, it does suggest that she at least worked out a coding scheme for doing so. It's completely possible, then, that there are transcriptions (full or partial) floating around somewhere. I don't know who might have them if they do exist. Hadn't she planned to donate much or all of her materials to the Osage Nation for safe keeping after her death? If so, I don't know if that ever happened, but there are folks here in town I could ask.

All the best,
-Justin

On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 8:02 AM, ROOD DAVID S <david.rood at colorado.edu<mailto:david.rood at colorado.edu>> wrote:
Hi, everyone,
        When Carolyn Quintero was working on her Osage grammar and dictionary, she had funding from NSF for which I was the nominal PI.  In part because of that connection, she gave me a set of over 100 cassette tapes of her interviews with speakers and some of their stories, as well as some miscellaneous stuff (like the recording of a radio program).  Does anyone on the list know whether these were ever transcribed and if so, where those transcriptions might be?  It's possible that Carolyn just used her knowledge of the spoken language to pick examples off the tapes, rather than making full written transcriptions.  However, it's going to be hard for anyone else to make use of these tapes if we don't have the transcriptions.
        Thanks for any help you can give us.
        Best,
        David

David S. Rood
Dept. of Linguistics
Univ. of Colorado
295 UCB
Boulder, CO 80309-0295
USA
rood at colorado.edu<mailto:rood at colorado.edu>

--
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From mawakuni-swetland2 at UNL.EDU  Wed May 14 18:33:41 2014
From: mawakuni-swetland2 at UNL.EDU (Mark Awakuni-Swetland)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2014 18:33:41 +0000
Subject: archived Osage?
In-Reply-To: <CAHmQnNaOz5vin=eXbxvYgLHiCiFFdvzCbAvbQ1XZh07W_QUk3Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <WED.14.MAY.2014.183341.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Aloha all,
Just some musings from the sideline?David and Justin?s questions about where Carolyn?s materials may be reminds me of Bob Rankin?s recent urging to all of us. TRANSCRIBE our field notes, recordings, etc. as the first step to making those data more useful to researchers, community programs, and families. Create some sort of index system or finding aid and place copies in appropriate digital media archive(s).

We all know how the black hole of resources needed for transcribing is hard to estimate for grant-proposals. Some sort of template would really be helpful in calculating time required and labor for data entry.

Just a reminder of Bob?s call to get field notes, elicitation recordings, etc. dusted off and converted into appropriate media?whatever fits for the particular data.
Mark A-S

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Mcbride, Justin
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2014 8:51 AM
To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU
Subject: Re: archived Osage?

David,

If there are transcriptions available, I've never seen them. Still, if memory serves, her dictionary provides evidence of a rather extensive coding system after each example pulled from her data. I believe early drafts of her grammar did, too. While this doesn't necessarily prove that she transcribed the whole of her recordings, it does suggest that she at least worked out a coding scheme for doing so. It's completely possible, then, that there are transcriptions (full or partial) floating around somewhere. I don't know who might have them if they do exist. Hadn't she planned to donate much or all of her materials to the Osage Nation for safe keeping after her death? If so, I don't know if that ever happened, but there are folks here in town I could ask.

All the best,
-Justin

On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 8:02 AM, ROOD DAVID S <david.rood at colorado.edu<mailto:david.rood at colorado.edu>> wrote:
Hi, everyone,
        When Carolyn Quintero was working on her Osage grammar and dictionary, she had funding from NSF for which I was the nominal PI.  In part because of that connection, she gave me a set of over 100 cassette tapes of her interviews with speakers and some of their stories, as well as some miscellaneous stuff (like the recording of a radio program).  Does anyone on the list know whether these were ever transcribed and if so, where those transcriptions might be?  It's possible that Carolyn just used her knowledge of the spoken language to pick examples off the tapes, rather than making full written transcriptions.  However, it's going to be hard for anyone else to make use of these tapes if we don't have the transcriptions.
        Thanks for any help you can give us.
        Best,
        David

David S. Rood
Dept. of Linguistics
Univ. of Colorado
295 UCB
Boulder, CO 80309-0295
USA
rood at colorado.edu<mailto:rood at colorado.edu>

--
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From dvkanth2010 at gmail.com  Mon May 19 17:52:40 2014
From: dvkanth2010 at gmail.com (David Kaufman)
Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 12:52:40 -0500
Subject: Lakota/Dakota questions
Message-ID: <MON.19.MAY.2014.125240.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Hi all,

Can anyone tell me how to say these sentences in Dakota/Lakota?

1) This morning I went hunting.

2) I cannot cook

3) I came chasing someone.

Specifically, I'm looking at serial verb constructions and whether or not
Dakota/Lakota would show subjects on both verbs or just one of them.  Any
help would greatly be appreciated!

See y'all soon!

Dave


David Kaufman
Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas
Director, Kaw Nation Language Program

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From voorhis at WESTMAN.WAVE.CA  Tue May 20 03:08:52 2014
From: voorhis at WESTMAN.WAVE.CA (voorhis at WESTMAN.WAVE.CA)
Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 22:08:52 -0500
Subject: Lakota/Dakota questions
In-Reply-To: <CAKapKjQUs0jC3rtE1J_8vMfroPVWZKq8HZeFz4taTJmoZS4=9g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MON.19.MAY.2014.220852.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

David,

In the local Dakota (southwest Manitoba), 'go' and 'come' take subjects 
only on the second (the go-or-come) verb, e.g. Xtanihan wakhuwa yai he. 
  'Did you go hunting yesterday?'  'Can' takes subject marking on both 
verbs, e.g. Iyamayakipha oyakihi he.  'Can you wait for me?' with verbs 
iyakipha/e 'to wait for' and okihi 'to be able to'.

Please forgive the hasty transcription.  If some pronunciation is 
uncertain just ask me and I'll explain it.

Paul

On 5/19/2014 12:52 PM, David Kaufman wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Can anyone tell me how to say these sentences in Dakota/Lakota?
>
> 1) This morning I went hunting.
>
> 2) I cannot cook
>
> 3) I came chasing someone.
>
> Specifically, I'm looking at serial verb constructions and whether or
> not Dakota/Lakota would show subjects on both verbs or just one of them.
>   Any help would greatly be appreciated!
>
> See y'all soon!
>
> Dave
>
>
> David Kaufman
> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas
> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program
> -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's
> DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from
> Yahoo.com

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From jfu at LAKHOTA.ORG  Tue May 20 05:10:10 2014
From: jfu at LAKHOTA.ORG (Jan Ullrich)
Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 07:10:10 +0200
Subject: Lakota/Dakota questions
In-Reply-To: <CAKapKjQUs0jC3rtE1J_8vMfroPVWZKq8HZeFz4taTJmoZS4=9g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.20.MAY.2014.071010.0200.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

David,

 

Below are the Lakota translations of the sentences. 

Sentence (2) has at least three possible translations, depending on what you mean.

Let me know if you need more specific annotation for any of the words or any other additional info.

 

Jan

 

 

1) This morning I went hunting.

 

H??ha?ni wakh?l om?wani.

morning / shooting things / I walked about

 

2) I cannot cook

 

a) Lol???a?pi u?m?spe ?ni. ? I don?t know how to cook.

Cooking / I know how / not

 

b) Lol??wa??a? ow?kihi ?ni. ? I can?t cook (I am unable at the moment or under given circumstances).

I cook / I can / not

 

c) T?kheni(?) lol??wa??a? ?ni. ? There is no way I could cook (under given circumstance).

In no way / I cook / not

 

(Also, there are a number of verbs for ?to cook?, although the one I used is most common today.)

 

3) I came chasing someone.

 

Tuw? khuw? aw?hi.

Someone / chasing him / I brought him

 


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From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM  Tue May 20 15:57:17 2014
From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman)
Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 10:57:17 -0500
Subject: Lakota/Dakota questions
In-Reply-To: <001e01cf73e9$c7540420$55fc0c60$@org>
Message-ID: <TUE.20.MAY.2014.105717.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Thank you, Paul and Jan, for the translations.  Would you be able to
provide a morpheme-by-morpheme gloss of the sentences?  This will go a long
way in helping me to compare with Dhegiha.

Dave

David Kaufman
Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas
Director, Kaw Nation Language Program


On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 12:10 AM, Jan Ullrich <jfu at lakhota.org> wrote:

> David,
>
>
>
> Below are the Lakota translations of the sentences.
>
> Sentence (2) has at least three possible translations, depending on what
> you mean.
>
> Let me know if you need more specific annotation for any of the words or
> any other additional info.
>
>
>
> Jan
>
>
>
>
>
> 1) This morning I went hunting.
>
>
>
> H??ha?ni wakh?l om?wani.
>
> morning / shooting things / I walked about
>
>
>
> 2) I cannot cook
>
>
>
> a) Lol???a?pi u?m?spe ?ni. ? I don?t know how to cook.
>
> Cooking / I know how / not
>
>
>
> b) Lol??wa??a? ow?kihi ?ni. ? I can?t cook (I am unable at the moment or
> under given circumstances).
>
> I cook / I can / not
>
>
>
> c) T?kheni(?) lol??wa??a? ?ni. ? There is no way I could cook (under given
> circumstance).
>
> In no way / I cook / not
>
>
>
> (Also, there are a number of verbs for ?to cook?, although the one I used
> is most common today.)
>
>
>
> 3) I came chasing someone.
>
>
>
> Tuw? khuw? aw?hi.
>
> Someone / chasing him / I brought him
>
>
> -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's
> DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from
> Yahoo.com
>

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From jfu at LAKHOTA.ORG  Tue May 20 16:44:35 2014
From: jfu at LAKHOTA.ORG (Jan Ullrich)
Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 18:44:35 +0200
Subject: Lakota/Dakota questions
In-Reply-To: <CAKapKjRXwSOE-hLuHb2p=nDq+oVcfF3V5rGNwj6ENiaKmLVLGg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.20.MAY.2014.184435.0200.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

> Would you be able to provide a morpheme-by-morpheme gloss of the sentences?  

David, below is a version with more detailed glossing of the verbal morphemes.

 

1) This morning I went hunting.

H??ha?ni wa-kh?l o-m?-wa-ni.

morning / non.specific.patient-shoot.at.sth.sb (truncated form of wakh?te) / locative.(about)-stem-1SG.AG-stem(to.walk)

 

2) I cannot cook

 

a) Lol???a?-pi u?-m?-spe ?ni. ? I don?t know how to cook. (literally: I don?t know how to do cooking.)

to.cook-3PL.AG / stem-1SG.PAT-to.know.how.to.do.smth / not

(The 3rd plural affix ?pi nominalizes the verb lol????a?, so the meaning of the first words is ?cooking?).

 

b) Lol?-?-wa-??a? o-w?-kihi ?ni. ? I can?t cook (I am unable at the moment or under given circumstances).

Food-loc-1SG.AG-act / stem-1SG.AG-stem(can/able) / not

 

c) T?kheni(?) lol??wa??a? ?ni. ? There is no way I could cook (under given circumstance).

In no way(adversative) / food-loc-1SG.AG-act / not

 

(There are a number of verbs for ?to cook?, although the one I used is most common today.)

 

3) I came chasing someone.

 

Tuw? khuw? a-w?-hi.

Someone / to.chase.sb.sth / loc-1SG.AG-to.come.here

 The verb ah? (1SG.AG: aw?hi) means ?to bring sth/sb?, so the literal meaning is ?I brought someone here chasing him/her.? To my knowledge Lakota always uses bringing/taking verbs rather than coming/going verbs in this construction. 

 

Jan

 

 


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From dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM  Tue May 20 17:29:58 2014
From: dvkanth2010 at GMAIL.COM (David Kaufman)
Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 12:29:58 -0500
Subject: Lakota/Dakota questions
In-Reply-To: <008e01cf744a$c86f1a00$594d4e00$@org>
Message-ID: <TUE.20.MAY.2014.122958.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Thanks, Jan!  This is very helpful.

Dave

David Kaufman
Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas
Director, Kaw Nation Language Program


On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 11:44 AM, Jan Ullrich <jfu at lakhota.org> wrote:

> > Would you be able to provide a morpheme-by-morpheme gloss of the
> sentences?
>
> David, below is a version with more detailed glossing of the verbal
> morphemes.
>
>
>
> 1) This morning I went hunting.
>
> H??ha?ni wa-kh?l o-m?-wa-ni.
>
> morning / non.specific.patient-shoot.at.sth.sb (truncated form of wakh?te)/
> locative.(about)-stem-1SG.AG-stem(to.walk)
>
>
>
> 2) I cannot cook
>
>
>
> a) Lol???a?-pi u?-m?-spe ?ni. ? I don?t know how to cook. (literally: I
> don?t know how to do cooking.)
>
> to.cook-3PL.AG / stem-1SG.PAT-to.know.how.to.do.smth / not
>
> (The 3rd plural affix ?pi nominalizes the verb lol????a?, so the meaning
> of the first words is ?cooking?).
>
>
>
> b) Lol?-?-wa-??a? o-w?-kihi ?ni. ? I can?t cook (I am unable at the
> moment or under given circumstances).
>
> Food-loc-1SG.AG-act / stem-1SG.AG-stem(can/able) / not
>
>
>
> c) T?kheni(?) lol??wa??a? ?ni. ? There is no way I could cook (under given
> circumstance).
>
> In no way(adversative) / food-loc-1SG.AG-act / not
>
>
>
> (There are a number of verbs for ?to cook?, although the one I used is
> most common today.)
>
>
>
> 3) I came chasing someone.
>
>
>
> Tuw? khuw? a-w?-hi.
>
> Someone / to.chase.sb.sth / loc-1SG.AG-to.come.here
>
>  The verb ah? (1SG.AG: aw?hi) means ?to bring sth/sb?, so the literal
> meaning is ?I brought someone here chasing him/her.? To my knowledge Lakota
> always uses bringing/taking verbs rather than coming/going verbs in this
> construction.
>
>
>
> Jan
>
>
>
>
> -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's
> DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from
> Yahoo.com
>

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From Kathleen.Danker at SDSTATE.EDU  Tue May 20 20:28:13 2014
From: Kathleen.Danker at SDSTATE.EDU (Danker, Kathleen)
Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 20:28:13 +0000
Subject: reminder about t-shirts for SCLC
In-Reply-To: <6CCE7621-C9E7-4CB5-A072-9493EB142C1E@wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.20.MAY.2014.202813.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Meredith Johnson,
This is to let you know that I will be attending the Siouan and Caddoan Languages Conference on Friday and Saturday. I have lodging and will not attend the dinner on Sunday.
K.D. Danker

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Meredith Johnson
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2014 3:36 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: reminder about t-shirts for SCLC

Hello everyone,

We will be ordering conference t-shirts next week, so this is your last week to let us know in advance what size you want, if you know you want to purchase a shirt. Please let us know no later than May 4.

Also, we have decided to offering two color options:  red tee with white writing, or black tee with red writing.  If you have already let us know that you want a shirt, you can write and let us know if you have a color preference as well. We will also follow up with individuals about their color preferences.

We will have some shirts available onsite as well, but this is your chance to be picky!

See you all very soon!

Best,
Meredith
-- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com

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From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU  Wed May 21 14:49:50 2014
From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson)
Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 14:49:50 +0000
Subject: Siouan accent and long syllables
Message-ID: <WED.21.MAY.2014.144950.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

I have a question about the Siouan accent rule that I should know, but don't.  Generally, Siouan accent likes to go on the second syllable.  Also, Siouan vowels are sometimes long.  Does a long vowel count as one syllable or two for purposes of the Siouan accent rule?  If we have a word with the vowel of the first syllable long,

                cvvcv

should Siouan accent it as

                cvvcV

or as

                cvVcv

?

Thanks,
Rory

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From linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU  Wed May 21 15:18:58 2014
From: linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU (Bryan James Gordon)
Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 08:18:58 -0700
Subject: Siouan accent and long syllables
In-Reply-To: <98a5f12a44204ae4899f12e5f2ab591e@DM2PR08MB525.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <WED.21.MAY.2014.081858.0700.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

It seems like there is some variation about how vowel length interacts with
stress. I never have managed to figure out a simple, neat explanation for
how it works in Ponca and Omaha. It seems like if one of the first two
syllables has a long vowel, that one usually gets stressed, but not always.
Sometimes the stress placement is more an indicator of morphology than
phonology, e.g. "ith?e" "I speak" vs. "?thae" "you speak". And when both
vowels are underlyingly long it seems to me like there are morphological,
phonological and "free" (across- and within-speaker) variations. And then
there's the question of why "wa-" "them" seems to like stress more than
"wa-" "us". Is "wa-" "them" underlyingly long?

I understand the situation in Ioway, Otoe and Missouria even less. Jimm may
be able to help out here. I often notice when comparing recordings with
each other or with Jimm's dictionary that words like "Baxoje" "Ioway" are
stressed on different syllables by different speakers or even by the same
speaker in different contexts. It seems like the first vowel in "Baxoje" is
long, so there may be some sort of tension going on here between "Put
stress on the third mora" and "Put stress on the first long vowel". The
dictionary orthography (I think) puts stress on the first syllable.
On May 21, 2014 7:55 AM, "Rory Larson" <rlarson1 at unl.edu> wrote:

>  I have a question about the Siouan accent rule that I should know, but
> don?t.  Generally, Siouan accent likes to go on the second syllable.  Also,
> Siouan vowels are sometimes long.  Does a long vowel count as one syllable
> or two for purposes of the Siouan accent rule?  If we have a word with the
> vowel of the first syllable long,
>
>
>
>                 cvvcv
>
>
>
> should Siouan accent it as
>
>
>
>                 cvvcV
>
>
>
> or as
>
>
>
>                 cvVcv
>
>
>
> ?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Rory
>  -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's
> DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from
> Yahoo.com

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From voorhis at WESTMAN.WAVE.CA  Wed May 21 16:35:18 2014
From: voorhis at WESTMAN.WAVE.CA (voorhis at WESTMAN.WAVE.CA)
Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 11:35:18 -0500
Subject: Lakota/Dakota questions
In-Reply-To: <CAKapKjRXwSOE-hLuHb2p=nDq+oVcfF3V5rGNwj6ENiaKmLVLGg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <WED.21.MAY.2014.113518.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Dave,

Xtanihan wakhuwa yai he.  'Did you go hunting yesterday?'
xtanihan 'yesterday'
wa- indefinite object 'something, someone'
khuwa 'hunt' transitive verb
ya- 'you' subject
i 'go and arrive, go (perfective)'
he question marker

Iyamayakipha oyakihi he.  'Can you wait for me?'
iya-kiphe/a 'wait for' transitive verb
ma- 'me' object
ya- 'you' subject
o-kihi 'be able to'
ya- 'you' subject
he question marker

iya-kiphe/a is evidently composed historically of i- 'by means of',
a-phe/a 'await', and ki- 'to, for' (benefactive).  I'm not sure how
aware contemporary speakers are of all the components in this verb, though.

o-kihi appears to consist historically of o- 'in' and kihi 'grow up
(?)'.  Again, I'm not sure how many speakers would recognize this etymology.

Paul

On 5/20/2014 10:57 AM, David Kaufman wrote:
> Thank you, Paul and Jan, for the translations.  Would you be able to
>  provide a morpheme-by-morpheme gloss of the sentences?  This will go
> a long way in helping me to compare with Dhegiha.
>
> Dave
>
> David Kaufman Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of
> Kansas Director, Kaw Nation Language Program
>
>
> On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 12:10 AM, Jan Ullrich <jfu at lakhota.org
> <mailto:jfu at lakhota.org>> wrote:
>
> David,____
>
> __ __
>
> Below are the Lakota translations of the sentences. ____
>
> Sentence (2) has at least three possible translations, depending on
> what you mean.____
>
> Let me know if you need more specific annotation for any of the words
> or any other additional info.____
>
> __ __
>
> Jan____
>
> __ __
>
> __ __
>
> 1) This morning I went hunting.____
>
> __ __
>
> H??ha?ni wakh?l om?wani.____
>
> morning / shooting things / I walked about____
>
> __ __
>
> 2) I cannot cook____
>
> __ __
>
> a) Lol???a?pi u?m?spe ?ni. ? I don?t know how to cook.____
>
> Cooking / I know how / not____
>
> __ __
>
> b) Lol??wa??a? ow?kihi ?ni. ? I can?t cook (I am unable at the moment
> or under given circumstances).____
>
> I cook / I can / not____
>
> __ __
>
> c) T?kheni(?) lol??wa??a? ?ni. ? There is no way I could cook (under
> given circumstance).____
>
> In no way / I cook / not____
>
> __ __
>
> (Also, there are a number of verbs for ?to cook?, although the one I
> used is most common today.)____
>
> __ __
>
> 3) I came chasing someone.____
>
> __ __
>
> Tuw? khuw? aw?hi.____
>
> Someone / chasing him / I brought him____
>
> __ __
>
> -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to
> Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu <http://listserv.unl.edu>
> lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com
>
>
> -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to
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> email from Yahoo.com

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From ryan.kasak at GMAIL.COM  Wed May 21 19:36:17 2014
From: ryan.kasak at GMAIL.COM (Ryan Kasak)
Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 15:36:17 -0400
Subject: Siouan accent and long syllables
In-Reply-To: <CADVVCOj4MohR7aMcTo0ACnOSjbX2ugwPeTZVwZ1r8cxJDUmVQQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <WED.21.MAY.2014.153617.0400.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Regarding Bryan's discussion of the conflict between syllable weight and
expected ???? pattern in Chiwere, it could simply be that the
Weight-to-Stress Principle of Prince (1990) is ranked higher than the ????
pattern, if we put this in the context of OT tableaux:

WSP>> ????
 /baaxoje/ WSP ????  -> a. ba?axoje   *    b. baaxo?je *!
It is thus more important that heavy syllables attract stress than adhere
to the on-the-third-mora tendency we see. This hierarchy could help start
to explain the disconnect between when to stress what in Chiwere. I haven't
looked much into Hooca?k, so I don't know if this brief observation would
hold true there as well.

In Mandan, there is a preference for left-aligned iambs, where long vowels
are well-formed iambs: LL?, LH?, H?.
/istawi?/  -> [(i.sta?).mi?] 'eye'
/ruwa?k/ -> [(nu?.ma??k)] 'man'
/wi?-ta-wi?i?h-e/ -> [(pta.mi??i?).he] 'my sister'
/pa?a?pi-o?s?/ -> [(pa??a?).pi?s?] 'he is thin' (said to male listener)

The only two exceptions to this is in compounds and in words involving
preverbs/applicatives /i, e, aa, o/. In compounds, primary stress is
assigned to the leftmost-available iamb. If no iamb is available, the
stress does not cross the word boundary, resulting in deficient feet, i.e.,
a foot containing just a stressed L?.

COMPOUNDS:

/pa?/ 'head' + /hi?/ 'hair' -> [(pa??).hi?] 'porcupine'
/wi??/ 'stone' + /ti/ 'house' -> [(mi???).ti] 'village'
/ho/ 'story' + /kira?a?r/ 'tell' -> [(ho?).ki.na?a.ro?s?] ?he is
story-telling? (said to male listener)

PREVERBS

/i/ directional + /aaki/ `be above' + /ta/ locative -> [(i?).?aa.ki.ta]
?upward?
/o/ inessive + /wa/ 1st active + /ku?h/ `want something' + /o?s?/ ->
[(o?).wa.ku?.ho?s?] 'I want something'

The stress placement in constructions with preverbs suggests that the
phonology is sensitive to the morphological structure of non-simplex words.
In Anderson?s (1992) *A-Morphous Morphology*, he calls words like those in
the preverbs 'composites,' meaning that there is some internal structure:
[o?- [waku?ho?s?]] ?I want something.? The preverb isn't in the same domain
as the inflected root is, and the left-aligned iambic stress assignment
cannot corss over into the next domain to create a well-formed iamb, due to
what Ito and Mester (1999) call a CrispEdge constraint, where some
phonological processes are unable to cross certain boundaries.

I haven?t looked super seriously at other Siouan languages? stress
patterns, but I think that Lakota/Dakota likewise prefers iambic feet (sans
the long vowels like in Mandan) except for cases of compounds and
composites, but I'd be interested to see how well that guess plays out.

-Ryan


On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 11:18 AM, Bryan James Gordon <
linguist at email.arizona.edu> wrote:

> It seems like there is some variation about how vowel length interacts
> with stress. I never have managed to figure out a simple, neat explanation
> for how it works in Ponca and Omaha. It seems like if one of the first two
> syllables has a long vowel, that one usually gets stressed, but not always.
> Sometimes the stress placement is more an indicator of morphology than
> phonology, e.g. "ith?e" "I speak" vs. "?thae" "you speak". And when both
> vowels are underlyingly long it seems to me like there are morphological,
> phonological and "free" (across- and within-speaker) variations. And then
> there's the question of why "wa-" "them" seems to like stress more than
> "wa-" "us". Is "wa-" "them" underlyingly long?
>
> I understand the situation in Ioway, Otoe and Missouria even less. Jimm
> may be able to help out here. I often notice when comparing recordings with
> each other or with Jimm's dictionary that words like "Baxoje" "Ioway" are
> stressed on different syllables by different speakers or even by the same
> speaker in different contexts. It seems like the first vowel in "Baxoje" is
> long, so there may be some sort of tension going on here between "Put
> stress on the third mora" and "Put stress on the first long vowel". The
> dictionary orthography (I think) puts stress on the first syllable.
>  On May 21, 2014 7:55 AM, "Rory Larson" <rlarson1 at unl.edu> wrote:
>
>>  I have a question about the Siouan accent rule that I should know, but
>> don?t.  Generally, Siouan accent likes to go on the second syllable.  Also,
>> Siouan vowels are sometimes long.  Does a long vowel count as one syllable
>> or two for purposes of the Siouan accent rule?  If we have a word with the
>> vowel of the first syllable long,
>>
>>
>>
>>                 cvvcv
>>
>>
>>
>> should Siouan accent it as
>>
>>
>>
>>                 cvvcV
>>
>>
>>
>> or as
>>
>>
>>
>>                 cvVcv
>>
>>
>>
>> ?
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Rory
>>  -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's
>> DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from
>> Yahoo.com
>
> -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's
> DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from
> Yahoo.com
>

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From lhf at UNL.EDU  Wed May 21 21:13:48 2014
From: lhf at UNL.EDU (Loren Frerichs)
Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 21:13:48 +0000
Subject: FW: Siouan accent and long syllables
In-Reply-To: <1400705196.79952.YahooMailNeo@web185402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WED.21.MAY.2014.211348.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>


________________________________
From: Emilia Aigotti <aigotm at yahoo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 15:46
To: Siouan Linguistics
Subject: Re: Siouan accent and long syllables

Did you read about Dorsey's Law? Wolff 1950 has a good explanation of it although I haven't totally wrapped my head around it. Don't forget though, it is believed that Chiwere doesn't have vowel length. Here is an excerpt from my paper from Miner 1979. Not sure this helps at all. I just jumped in on this conversation?

Emilia

3.1.3 Hypotheses on Chiwere/Hooc?k Relationship.  Miner (1979) gives examples of the relationship between accent and stress patterns between Hooc?k and Chiwere.
1. third-mora accent in Winnebago  matches second-syllable accent in                                        Chiwere
2. Chiwere accented initial syllables correspond to Winnebago long                      initial syllables
3. Point two above corresponds to the instrumental prefixes.
This means, accented instrumentals in Chiwere closely resembled lengthened prefixes in Winnebago (and the same being true for unaccented and short vowels). The following is an excerpt from the chart Miner provides (p. 31) on the similarities between Hooc?k and Chiwere instrumentals.

________________________________
From: Ryan Kasak <ryan.kasak at GMAIL.COM>
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: Siouan accent and long syllables

Regarding Bryan's discussion of the conflict between syllable weight and expected ???? pattern in Chiwere, it could simply be that the Weight-to-Stress Principle of Prince (1990) is ranked higher than the ???? pattern, if we put this in the context of OT tableaux:

WSP>> ????
/baaxoje/       WSP     ????
->      a. b?axoje              *
        b. baax?je      *!

It is thus more important that heavy syllables attract stress than adhere to the on-the-third-mora tendency we see. This hierarchy could help start to explain the disconnect between when to stress what in Chiwere. I haven't looked much into Hooc?k, so I don't know if this brief observation would hold true there as well.

In Mandan, there is a preference for left-aligned iambs, where long vowels are well-formed iambs: L?, LH?, H?.
/istaw?/  -> [(i.st?).m?] 'eye'
/ruw?k/ -> [(n?.m??k)] 'man'
/w?-ta-w??h-e/ -> [(pta.m???).he] 'my sister'
/p??pi-o??/ -> [(p???).pi??] 'he is thin' (said to male listener)

The only two exceptions to this is in compounds and in words involving preverbs/applicatives /i, e, aa, o/. In compounds, primary stress is assigned to the leftmost-available iamb. If no iamb is available, the stress does not cross the word boundary, resulting in deficient feet, i.e., a foot containing just a stressed ?.

COMPOUNDS:

/pa?/ 'head' + /h?/ 'hair' -> [(p??).h?] 'porcupine'
/w??/ 'stone' + /ti/ 'house' -> [(m???).ti] 'village'
/ho/ 'story' + /kir??r/ 'tell' -> [(h?).ki.na<http://ki.na/>?a.ro<http://a.ro/>??] ?he is story-telling? (said to male listener)

PREVERBS

/i/ directional + /aaki/ `be above' + /ta/ locative -> [(?).?aa.ki.ta] ?upward?
/o/ inessive + /wa/ 1st active + /k?h/ `want something' + /o??/ -> [(?).wa.k?.ho??] 'I want something'

The stress placement in constructions with preverbs suggests that the phonology is sensitive to the morphological structure of non-simplex words. In Anderson?s (1992) A-Morphous Morphology, he calls words like those in the preverbs 'composites,' meaning that there is some internal structure: [?- [wak?ho??]] ?I want something.? The preverb isn't in the same domain as the inflected root is, and the left-aligned iambic stress assignment cannot corss over into the next domain to create a well-formed iamb, due to what Ito and Mester (1999) call a CrispEdge constraint, where some phonological processes are unable to cross certain boundaries.

I haven?t looked super seriously at other Siouan languages? stress patterns, but I think that Lakota/Dakota likewise prefers iambic feet (sans the long vowels like in Mandan) except for cases of compounds and composites, but I'd be interested to see how well that guess plays out.

-Ryan


On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 11:18 AM, Bryan James Gordon <linguist at email.arizona.edu<mailto:linguist at email.arizona.edu>> wrote:
It seems like there is some variation about how vowel length interacts with stress. I never have managed to figure out a simple, neat explanation for how it works in Ponca and Omaha. It seems like if one of the first two syllables has a long vowel, that one usually gets stressed, but not always. Sometimes the stress placement is more an indicator of morphology than phonology, e.g. "ith?e" "I speak" vs. "?thae" "you speak". And when both vowels are underlyingly long it seems to me like there are morphological, phonological and "free" (across- and within-speaker) variations. And then there's the question of why "wa-" "them" seems to like stress more than "wa-" "us". Is "wa-" "them" underlyingly long?
I understand the situation in Ioway, Otoe and Missouria even less. Jimm may be able to help out here. I often notice when comparing recordings with each other or with Jimm's dictionary that words like "Baxoje" "Ioway" are stressed on different syllables by different speakers or even by the same speaker in different contexts. It seems like the first vowel in "Baxoje" is long, so there may be some sort of tension going on here between "Put stress on the third mora" and "Put stress on the first long vowel". The dictionary orthography (I think) puts stress on the first syllable.
On May 21, 2014 7:55 AM, "Rory Larson" <rlarson1 at unl.edu<mailto:rlarson1 at unl.edu>> wrote:
I have a question about the Siouan accent rule that I should know, but don?t.  Generally, Siouan accent likes to go on the second syllable.  Also, Siouan vowels are sometimes long.  Does a long vowel count as one syllable or two for purposes of the Siouan accent rule?  If we have a word with the vowel of the first syllable long,

                cvvcv

should Siouan accent it as

                cvvcV

or as

                cvVcv

?

Thanks,
Rory
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From majohnson25 at WISC.EDU  Thu May 22 00:05:22 2014
From: majohnson25 at WISC.EDU (Meredith Johnson)
Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 19:05:22 -0500
Subject: updated SCLC schedule and directions to conference
Message-ID: <WED.21.MAY.2014.190522.0500.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Dear all,

We have just a couple of quick notes about the conference coming up this weekend.

First of all, please find attached an updated schedule for the conference. We have had two recent cancellations, which are now reflected. The new schedule also has the rooms for the conference each day and the dinner. Note that everything is happening on the third floor of Memorial Union, but we will be using two different rooms on different days.

Second, we had some questions about how to get to the conference. If you are staying at the Hampton Inn, walking directions to the union can be found here: https://www.google.com/maps/dir/440+W+Johnson+St,+Madison,+WI+53703/800+Langdon+St,+Madison,+WI+53706/@43.074369,-89.4004689,16z/data=!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x8806533699f3c09b:0x75d55a7cbeda422!2m2!1d-89.393261!2d43.072792!1m5!1m1!1s0x8807accaa0165ae1:0x25a67a47b6356ac4!2m2!1d-89.399663!2d43.076118!3e2?hl=en-US

If you are staying further away, bus schedule information can be found here: http://www.cityofmadison.com/metro/. You can also use Google Maps to plan your bus trip. 

Lastly, if you are driving to the conference, note that there is no onsite parking due to construction. The closest parking ramp is the State Street Campus Ramp at 415 N Lake St. Walking directions between the ramp and the conference site can be found here:
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/State+Street+Campus+Ramp,+415+N+Lake+St,+Madison,+WI+53715/800+Langdon+St,+Madison,+WI+53706/@43.0746727,-89.4010652,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x88065334dd132d05:0xd36aee177d9a1dd!2m2!1d-89.39719!2d43.074076!1m5!1m1!1s0x8807accaa0165ae1:0x25a67a47b6356ac4!2m2!1d-89.399663!2d43.076118!3e2?hl=en-US

Any other questions, please let me know. We look forward to seeing everyone this weekend!

Best,
Meredith

 

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From linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU  Thu May 22 03:08:26 2014
From: linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU (Bryan James Gordon)
Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 20:08:26 -0700
Subject: FW: Siouan accent and long syllables
In-Reply-To: <CADVVCOhtqDFCvG-zag0bLWPusjKhvwr_7rAKov_TN2mpTFvxwg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <WED.21.MAY.2014.200826.0700.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

I'm aware of good arguments that vowel length doesn't really function to
distinguish word pairs in Ioway, Otoe and Missouria, and very rarely serves
a distinguishing function in Omaha or Ponca either. However, what I hear in
listening to recordings and speakers for both groupings is a bimodal
distribution of length on unaccented first syllables. If length is ever
"really" distinctive, it's probably first and foremost on unaccented first
syllables. At some point I'll get my act together and provide quantitative
support for all this speculation.
BJG
On May 21, 2014 9:59 PM, "BJG" <egonxti at gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm aware of good arguments that vowel length doesn't really function to
> distinguish word pairs in Ioway, Otoe and Missouria, and very rarely serves
> a distinguishing function in Omaha or Ponca either. However, what I hear in
> listening to recordings and speakers for both groupings is a bimodal
> distribution of length on unaccented first syllables. If length is ever
> "really" distinctive, it's probably first and foremost on unaccented first
> syllables. At some point I'll get my act together and provide quantitative
> support for all this speculation.
>
> BJG
> On May 21, 2014 4:19 PM, "Loren Frerichs" <lhf at unl.edu> wrote:
>
>>
>>  ------------------------------
>> *From:* Emilia Aigotti <aigotm at yahoo.com>
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 21, 2014 15:46
>> *To:* Siouan Linguistics
>> *Subject:* Re: Siouan accent and long syllables
>>
>>   Did you read about Dorsey's Law? Wolff 1950 has a good explanation of
>> it although I haven't totally wrapped my head around it. Don't forget
>> though, it is believed that Chiwere doesn't have vowel length. Here is an
>> excerpt from my paper from Miner 1979. Not sure this helps at all. I just
>> jumped in on this conversation?
>>
>>  Emilia
>>
>>  *3.1.3 Hypotheses on Chiwere/Hooc?k Relationship.  *Miner (1979) gives
>> examples of the relationship between accent and stress patterns between
>> Hooc?k and Chiwere.
>> 1. third-mora accent in Winnebago  matches second-syllable accent in
>>     Chiwere
>> 2. Chiwere accented initial syllables correspond to Winnebago long
>>      initial syllables
>> 3. Point two above corresponds to the instrumental prefixes.
>>  This means, accented instrumentals in Chiwere closely resembled
>> lengthened prefixes in Winnebago (and the same being true for unaccented
>> and short vowels). The following is an excerpt from the chart Miner
>> provides (p. 31) on the similarities between Hooc?k and Chiwere
>> instrumentals.
>>
>>   ------------------------------
>> *From:* Ryan Kasak <ryan.kasak at GMAIL.COM>
>> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 21, 2014 2:36 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: Siouan accent and long syllables
>>
>>  Regarding Bryan's discussion of the conflict between syllable weight
>> and expected ???? pattern in Chiwere, it could simply be that the
>> Weight-to-Stress Principle of Prince (1990) is ranked higher than the ????
>> pattern, if we put this in the context of OT tableaux:
>>
>>  WSP>> ????
>>    /baaxoje/ WSP ????  -> a. b?axoje   *    b. baax?je *!
>>  It is thus more important that heavy syllables attract stress than
>> adhere to the on-the-third-mora tendency we see. This hierarchy could help
>> start to explain the disconnect between when to stress what in Chiwere. I
>> haven't looked much into Hooc?k, so I don't know if this brief observation
>> would hold true there as well.
>>
>> In Mandan, there is a preference for left-aligned iambs, where long
>> vowels are well-formed iambs: L?, LH?, H?.
>> /istaw?/  -> [(i.st?).m?] 'eye'
>> /ruw?k/ -> [(n?.m??k)] 'man'
>> /w?-ta-w??h-e/ -> [(pta.m???).he] 'my sister'
>> /p??pi-o??/ -> [(p???).pi??] 'he is thin' (said to male listener)
>>
>>  The only two exceptions to this is in compounds and in words involving
>> preverbs/applicatives /i, e, aa, o/. In compounds, primary stress is
>> assigned to the leftmost-available iamb. If no iamb is available, the
>> stress does not cross the word boundary, resulting in deficient feet, i.e.,
>> a foot containing just a stressed ?.
>>
>>  COMPOUNDS:
>>
>>  /pa?/ 'head' + /h?/ 'hair' -> [(p??).h?] 'porcupine'
>> /w??/ 'stone' + /ti/ 'house' -> [(m???).ti] 'village'
>> /ho/ 'story' + /kir??r/ 'tell' -> [(h?).ki.na?a.ro??] ?he is
>> story-telling? (said to male listener)
>>
>>  PREVERBS
>>
>>  /i/ directional + /aaki/ `be above' + /ta/ locative -> [(?).?aa.ki.ta]
>> ?upward?
>> /o/ inessive + /wa/ 1st active + /k?h/ `want something' + /o??/ ->
>> [(?).wa.k?.ho??] 'I want something'
>>
>>  The stress placement in constructions with preverbs suggests that the
>> phonology is sensitive to the morphological structure of non-simplex words.
>> In Anderson?s (1992) *A-Morphous Morphology*, he calls words like those
>> in the preverbs 'composites,' meaning that there is some internal
>> structure: [?- [wak?ho??]] ?I want something.? The preverb isn't in the
>> same domain as the inflected root is, and the left-aligned iambic stress
>> assignment cannot corss over into the next domain to create a well-formed
>> iamb, due to what Ito and Mester (1999) call a CrispEdge constraint, where
>> some phonological processes are unable to cross certain boundaries.
>>
>>  I haven?t looked super seriously at other Siouan languages? stress
>> patterns, but I think that Lakota/Dakota likewise prefers iambic feet (sans
>> the long vowels like in Mandan) except for cases of compounds and
>> composites, but I'd be interested to see how well that guess plays out.
>>
>>  -Ryan
>>
>>
>> On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 11:18 AM, Bryan James Gordon <
>> linguist at email.arizona.edu> wrote:
>>
>> It seems like there is some variation about how vowel length interacts
>> with stress. I never have managed to figure out a simple, neat explanation
>> for how it works in Ponca and Omaha. It seems like if one of the first two
>> syllables has a long vowel, that one usually gets stressed, but not always.
>> Sometimes the stress placement is more an indicator of morphology than
>> phonology, e.g. "ith?e" "I speak" vs. "?thae" "you speak". And when both
>> vowels are underlyingly long it seems to me like there are morphological,
>> phonological and "free" (across- and within-speaker) variations. And then
>> there's the question of why "wa-" "them" seems to like stress more than
>> "wa-" "us". Is "wa-" "them" underlyingly long?
>> I understand the situation in Ioway, Otoe and Missouria even less. Jimm
>> may be able to help out here. I often notice when comparing recordings with
>> each other or with Jimm's dictionary that words like "Baxoje" "Ioway" are
>> stressed on different syllables by different speakers or even by the same
>> speaker in different contexts. It seems like the first vowel in "Baxoje" is
>> long, so there may be some sort of tension going on here between "Put
>> stress on the third mora" and "Put stress on the first long vowel". The
>> dictionary orthography (I think) puts stress on the first syllable.
>>  On May 21, 2014 7:55 AM, "Rory Larson" <rlarson1 at unl.edu> wrote:
>>
>>  I have a question about the Siouan accent rule that I should know, but
>> don?t.  Generally, Siouan accent likes to go on the second syllable.  Also,
>> Siouan vowels are sometimes long.  Does a long vowel count as one syllable
>> or two for purposes of the Siouan accent rule?  If we have a word with the
>> vowel of the first syllable long,
>>
>>                 cvvcv
>>
>> should Siouan accent it as
>>
>>                 cvvcV
>>
>> or as
>>
>>                 cvVcv
>>
>> ?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Rory
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>> Yahoo.com
>>
>>  -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. Due to Yahoo's
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>>
>>
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>>
>>
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>
>

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From rlarson1 at unl.edu  Thu May 22 05:11:51 2014
From: rlarson1 at unl.edu (Rory Larson)
Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 05:11:51 +0000
Subject: updated SCLC schedule and directions to conference
Message-ID: <THU.22.MAY.2014.051151.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>



From: Emilia Aigotti [mailto:aigotm at yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 8:50 PM
To: Siouan Linguistics
Subject: Re: updated SCLC schedule and directions to conference

Hi. I'm sorry to be a pain, but the title of my presentation is wrong. It says 'static' and it should say 'stative'. Can you change it?
On Wednesday, May 21, 2014 7:07 PM, Meredith Johnson <majohnson25 at WISC.EDU<mailto:majohnson25 at WISC.EDU>> wrote:

Dear all,

We have just a couple of quick notes about the conference coming up this weekend.

First of all, please find attached an updated schedule for the conference. We have had two recent cancellations, which are now reflected. The new schedule also has the rooms for the conference each day and the dinner. Note that everything is happening on the third floor of Memorial Union, but we will be using two different rooms on different days.

Second, we had some questions about how to get to the conference. If you are staying at the Hampton Inn, walking directions to the union can be found here: https://www.google.com/maps/dir/440+W+Johnson+St,+Madison,+WI+53703/800+Langdon+St,+Madison,+WI+53706/@43.074369,-89.4004689,16z/data=!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x8806533699f3c09b:0x75d55a7cbeda422!2m2!1d-89.393261!2d43.072792!1m5!1m1!1s0x8807accaa0165ae1:0x25a67a47b6356ac4!2m2!1d-89.399663!2d43.076118!3e2?hl=en-US

If you are staying further away, bus schedule information can be found here: http://www.cityofmadison.com/metro/. You can also use Google Maps to plan your bus trip.

Lastly, if you are driving to the conference, note that there is no onsite parking due to construction. The closest parking ramp is the State Street Campus Ramp at 415 N Lake St. Walking directions between the ramp and the conference site can be found here:
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/State+Street+Campus+Ramp,+415+N+Lake+St,+Madison,+WI+53715/800+Langdon+St,+Madison,+WI+53706/@43.0746727,-89.4010652,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x88065334dd132d05:0xd36aee177d9a1dd!2m2!1d-89.39719!2d43.074076!1m5!1m1!1s0x8807accaa0165ae1:0x25a67a47b6356ac4!2m2!1d-89.399663!2d43.076118!3e2?hl=en-US

Any other questions, please let me know. We look forward to seeing everyone this weekend!

Best,
Meredith

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From rlarson1 at unl.edu  Thu May 22 05:22:00 2014
From: rlarson1 at unl.edu (Rory Larson)
Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 05:22:00 +0000
Subject: FW: Siouan accent and long syllables
In-Reply-To: <CADVVCOgpSYQmbjmD_kX86MomfErifP2WuAMHt2kG0fHK435x_A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <THU.22.MAY.2014.052200.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Bryan, Ryan, and Emilia, thank you very much for your kind responses and good advice.  I will plan to steer clear of the subject of the influence of vowel length on accent in Siouan in my presentation.  :)

See you all soon, hopefully!

Best,
Rory


From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Bryan James Gordon
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 10:08 PM
To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU
Subject: Re: FW: Siouan accent and long syllables


I'm aware of good arguments that vowel length doesn't really function to distinguish word pairs in Ioway, Otoe and Missouria, and very rarely serves a distinguishing function in Omaha or Ponca either. However, what I hear in listening to recordings and speakers for both groupings is a bimodal distribution of length on unaccented first syllables. If length is ever "really" distinctive, it's probably first and foremost on unaccented first syllables. At some point I'll get my act together and provide quantitative support for all this speculation.
BJG
On May 21, 2014 9:59 PM, "BJG" <egonxti at gmail.com<mailto:egonxti at gmail.com>> wrote:

I'm aware of good arguments that vowel length doesn't really function to distinguish word pairs in Ioway, Otoe and Missouria, and very rarely serves a distinguishing function in Omaha or Ponca either. However, what I hear in listening to recordings and speakers for both groupings is a bimodal distribution of length on unaccented first syllables. If length is ever "really" distinctive, it's probably first and foremost on unaccented first syllables. At some point I'll get my act together and provide quantitative support for all this speculation.

BJG
On May 21, 2014 4:19 PM, "Loren Frerichs" <lhf at unl.edu<mailto:lhf at unl.edu>> wrote:



________________________________
From: Emilia Aigotti <aigotm at yahoo.com<mailto:aigotm at yahoo.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 15:46
To: Siouan Linguistics
Subject: Re: Siouan accent and long syllables

Did you read about Dorsey's Law? Wolff 1950 has a good explanation of it although I haven't totally wrapped my head around it. Don't forget though, it is believed that Chiwere doesn't have vowel length. Here is an excerpt from my paper from Miner 1979. Not sure this helps at all. I just jumped in on this conversation?

Emilia

3.1.3 Hypotheses on Chiwere/Hooc?k Relationship.  Miner (1979) gives examples of the relationship between accent and stress patterns between Hooc?k and Chiwere.
1. third-mora accent in Winnebago  matches second-syllable accent in                                        Chiwere
2. Chiwere accented initial syllables correspond to Winnebago long                      initial syllables
3. Point two above corresponds to the instrumental prefixes.
This means, accented instrumentals in Chiwere closely resembled lengthened prefixes in Winnebago (and the same being true for unaccented and short vowels). The following is an excerpt from the chart Miner provides (p. 31) on the similarities between Hooc?k and Chiwere instrumentals.

________________________________
From: Ryan Kasak <ryan.kasak at GMAIL.COM<mailto:ryan.kasak at GMAIL.COM>>
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: Siouan accent and long syllables

Regarding Bryan's discussion of the conflict between syllable weight and expected ???? pattern in Chiwere, it could simply be that the Weight-to-Stress Principle of Prince (1990) is ranked higher than the ???? pattern, if we put this in the context of OT tableaux:

WSP>> ????
/baaxoje/

WSP

????

->

a. b?axoje



*



b. baax?je

*!




It is thus more important that heavy syllables attract stress than adhere to the on-the-third-mora tendency we see. This hierarchy could help start to explain the disconnect between when to stress what in Chiwere. I haven't looked much into Hooc?k, so I don't know if this brief observation would hold true there as well.

In Mandan, there is a preference for left-aligned iambs, where long vowels are well-formed iambs: L?, LH?, H?.
/istaw?/  -> [(i.st?).m?] 'eye'
/ruw?k/ -> [(n?.m??k)] 'man'
/w?-ta-w??h-e/ -> [(pta.m???).he] 'my sister'
/p??pi-o??/ -> [(p???).pi??] 'he is thin' (said to male listener)

The only two exceptions to this is in compounds and in words involving preverbs/applicatives /i, e, aa, o/. In compounds, primary stress is assigned to the leftmost-available iamb. If no iamb is available, the stress does not cross the word boundary, resulting in deficient feet, i.e., a foot containing just a stressed ?.

COMPOUNDS:

/pa?/ 'head' + /h?/ 'hair' -> [(p??).h?] 'porcupine'
/w??/ 'stone' + /ti/ 'house' -> [(m???).ti] 'village'
/ho/ 'story' + /kir??r/ 'tell' -> [(h?).ki.na<http://ki.na/>?a.ro<http://a.ro/>??] ?he is story-telling? (said to male listener)

PREVERBS

/i/ directional + /aaki/ `be above' + /ta/ locative -> [(?).?aa.ki.ta] ?upward?
/o/ inessive + /wa/ 1st active + /k?h/ `want something' + /o??/ -> [(?).wa.k?.ho??] 'I want something'

The stress placement in constructions with preverbs suggests that the phonology is sensitive to the morphological structure of non-simplex words. In Anderson?s (1992) A-Morphous Morphology, he calls words like those in the preverbs 'composites,' meaning that there is some internal structure: [?- [wak?ho??]] ?I want something.? The preverb isn't in the same domain as the inflected root is, and the left-aligned iambic stress assignment cannot corss over into the next domain to create a well-formed iamb, due to what Ito and Mester (1999) call a CrispEdge constraint, where some phonological processes are unable to cross certain boundaries.

I haven?t looked super seriously at other Siouan languages? stress patterns, but I think that Lakota/Dakota likewise prefers iambic feet (sans the long vowels like in Mandan) except for cases of compounds and composites, but I'd be interested to see how well that guess plays out.

-Ryan

On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 11:18 AM, Bryan James Gordon <linguist at email.arizona.edu<mailto:linguist at email.arizona.edu>> wrote:
It seems like there is some variation about how vowel length interacts with stress. I never have managed to figure out a simple, neat explanation for how it works in Ponca and Omaha. It seems like if one of the first two syllables has a long vowel, that one usually gets stressed, but not always. Sometimes the stress placement is more an indicator of morphology than phonology, e.g. "ith?e" "I speak" vs. "?thae" "you speak". And when both vowels are underlyingly long it seems to me like there are morphological, phonological and "free" (across- and within-speaker) variations. And then there's the question of why "wa-" "them" seems to like stress more than "wa-" "us". Is "wa-" "them" underlyingly long?
I understand the situation in Ioway, Otoe and Missouria even less. Jimm may be able to help out here. I often notice when comparing recordings with each other or with Jimm's dictionary that words like "Baxoje" "Ioway" are stressed on different syllables by different speakers or even by the same speaker in different contexts. It seems like the first vowel in "Baxoje" is long, so there may be some sort of tension going on here between "Put stress on the third mora" and "Put stress on the first long vowel". The dictionary orthography (I think) puts stress on the first syllable.
On May 21, 2014 7:55 AM, "Rory Larson" <rlarson1 at unl.edu<mailto:rlarson1 at unl.edu>> wrote:
I have a question about the Siouan accent rule that I should know, but don?t.  Generally, Siouan accent likes to go on the second syllable.  Also, Siouan vowels are sometimes long.  Does a long vowel count as one syllable or two for purposes of the Siouan accent rule?  If we have a word with the vowel of the first syllable long,

                cvvcv

should Siouan accent it as

                cvvcV

or as

                cvVcv

?

Thanks,
Rory
-- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu<http://listserv.unl.edu/>. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu<http://listserv.unl.edu/> lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com
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From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU  Wed May 28 19:06:54 2014
From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson)
Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 19:06:54 +0000
Subject: Siouan accent and long syllables
Message-ID: <WED.28.MAY.2014.190654.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>



From: Emilia Aigotti [mailto:aigotm at yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2014 2:04 PM
To: Siouan Linguistics
Subject: Re: FW: Siouan accent and long syllables

On the topic of "extra long" vowels as Armik discussed in Witchita, I found a long and extra long sample of the word n? in Chiwere. The long vowel belongs to the word 'tree' and the extra long vowel is a continuative particle. The sample I have is of n? n? side by side so the comparative length is quite obvious. I am wondering if any other Siouan languages have vowel length and "extra long" length.

Emilia

On Thursday, May 22, 2014 12:23 AM, Rory Larson <rlarson1 at unl.edu<mailto:rlarson1 at unl.edu>> wrote:

Bryan, Ryan, and Emilia, thank you very much for your kind responses and good advice.  I will plan to steer clear of the subject of the influence of vowel length on accent in Siouan in my presentation.  :)

See you all soon, hopefully!

Best,
Rory


From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Bryan James Gordon
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 10:08 PM
To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU<mailto:SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>
Subject: Re: FW: Siouan accent and long syllables

I'm aware of good arguments that vowel length doesn't really function to distinguish word pairs in Ioway, Otoe and Missouria, and very rarely serves a distinguishing function in Omaha or Ponca either. However, what I hear in listening to recordings and speakers for both groupings is a bimodal distribution of length on unaccented first syllables. If length is ever "really" distinctive, it's probably first and foremost on unaccented first syllables. At some point I'll get my act together and provide quantitative support for all this speculation.
BJG
On May 21, 2014 9:59 PM, "BJG" <egonxti at gmail.com<mailto:egonxti at gmail.com>> wrote:
I'm aware of good arguments that vowel length doesn't really function to distinguish word pairs in Ioway, Otoe and Missouria, and very rarely serves a distinguishing function in Omaha or Ponca either. However, what I hear in listening to recordings and speakers for both groupings is a bimodal distribution of length on unaccented first syllables. If length is ever "really" distinctive, it's probably first and foremost on unaccented first syllables. At some point I'll get my act together and provide quantitative support for all this speculation.
BJG
On May 21, 2014 4:19 PM, "Loren Frerichs" <lhf at unl.edu<mailto:lhf at unl.edu>> wrote:

________________________________
From: Emilia Aigotti <aigotm at yahoo.com<mailto:aigotm at yahoo.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 15:46
To: Siouan Linguistics
Subject: Re: Siouan accent and long syllables

Did you read about Dorsey's Law? Wolff 1950 has a good explanation of it although I haven't totally wrapped my head around it. Don't forget though, it is believed that Chiwere doesn't have vowel length. Here is an excerpt from my paper from Miner 1979. Not sure this helps at all. I just jumped in on this conversation?

Emilia

3.1.3 Hypotheses on Chiwere/Hooc?k Relationship.  Miner (1979) gives examples of the relationship between accent and stress patterns between Hooc?k and Chiwere.
1. third-mora accent in Winnebago  matches second-syllable accent in                                        Chiwere
2. Chiwere accented initial syllables correspond to Winnebago long                      initial syllables
3. Point two above corresponds to the instrumental prefixes.
This means, accented instrumentals in Chiwere closely resembled lengthened prefixes in Winnebago (and the same being true for unaccented and short vowels). The following is an excerpt from the chart Miner provides (p. 31) on the similarities between Hooc?k and Chiwere instrumentals.

________________________________
From: Ryan Kasak <ryan.kasak at GMAIL.COM<mailto:ryan.kasak at GMAIL.COM>>
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: Siouan accent and long syllables

Regarding Bryan's discussion of the conflict between syllable weight and expected ???? pattern in Chiwere, it could simply be that the Weight-to-Stress Principle of Prince (1990) is ranked higher than the ???? pattern, if we put this in the context of OT tableaux:

WSP>> ????
/baaxoje/

WSP

????

->

a. b?axoje



*



b. baax?je

*!




It is thus more important that heavy syllables attract stress than adhere to the on-the-third-mora tendency we see. This hierarchy could help start to explain the disconnect between when to stress what in Chiwere. I haven't looked much into Hooc?k, so I don't know if this brief observation would hold true there as well.

In Mandan, there is a preference for left-aligned iambs, where long vowels are well-formed iambs: L?, LH?, H?.
/istaw?/  -> [(i.st?).m?] 'eye'
/ruw?k/ -> [(n?.m??k)] 'man'
/w?-ta-w??h-e/ -> [(pta.m???).he] 'my sister'
/p??pi-o??/ -> [(p???).pi??] 'he is thin' (said to male listener)

The only two exceptions to this is in compounds and in words involving preverbs/applicatives /i, e, aa, o/. In compounds, primary stress is assigned to the leftmost-available iamb. If no iamb is available, the stress does not cross the word boundary, resulting in deficient feet, i.e., a foot containing just a stressed ?.

COMPOUNDS:

/pa?/ 'head' + /h?/ 'hair' -> [(p??).h?] 'porcupine'
/w??/ 'stone' + /ti/ 'house' -> [(m???).ti] 'village'
/ho/ 'story' + /kir??r/ 'tell' -> [(h?).ki.na<http://ki.na/>?a.ro<http://a.ro/>??] ?he is story-telling? (said to male listener)

PREVERBS

/i/ directional + /aaki/ `be above' + /ta/ locative -> [(?).?aa.ki.ta] ?upward?
/o/ inessive + /wa/ 1st active + /k?h/ `want something' + /o??/ -> [(?).wa.k?.ho??] 'I want something'

The stress placement in constructions with preverbs suggests that the phonology is sensitive to the morphological structure of non-simplex words. In Anderson?s (1992) A-Morphous Morphology, he calls words like those in the preverbs 'composites,' meaning that there is some internal structure: [?- [wak?ho??]] ?I want something.? The preverb isn't in the same domain as the inflected root is, and the left-aligned iambic stress assignment cannot corss over into the next domain to create a well-formed iamb, due to what Ito and Mester (1999) call a CrispEdge constraint, where some phonological processes are unable to cross certain boundaries.

I haven?t looked super seriously at other Siouan languages? stress patterns, but I think that Lakota/Dakota likewise prefers iambic feet (sans the long vowels like in Mandan) except for cases of compounds and composites, but I'd be interested to see how well that guess plays out.

-Ryan

On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 11:18 AM, Bryan James Gordon <linguist at email.arizona.edu<mailto:linguist at email.arizona.edu>> wrote:
It seems like there is some variation about how vowel length interacts with stress. I never have managed to figure out a simple, neat explanation for how it works in Ponca and Omaha. It seems like if one of the first two syllables has a long vowel, that one usually gets stressed, but not always. Sometimes the stress placement is more an indicator of morphology than phonology, e.g. "ith?e" "I speak" vs. "?thae" "you speak". And when both vowels are underlyingly long it seems to me like there are morphological, phonological and "free" (across- and within-speaker) variations. And then there's the question of why "wa-" "them" seems to like stress more than "wa-" "us". Is "wa-" "them" underlyingly long?
I understand the situation in Ioway, Otoe and Missouria even less. Jimm may be able to help out here. I often notice when comparing recordings with each other or with Jimm's dictionary that words like "Baxoje" "Ioway" are stressed on different syllables by different speakers or even by the same speaker in different contexts. It seems like the first vowel in "Baxoje" is long, so there may be some sort of tension going on here between "Put stress on the third mora" and "Put stress on the first long vowel". The dictionary orthography (I think) puts stress on the first syllable.
On May 21, 2014 7:55 AM, "Rory Larson" <rlarson1 at unl.edu<mailto:rlarson1 at unl.edu>> wrote:
I have a question about the Siouan accent rule that I should know, but don?t.  Generally, Siouan accent likes to go on the second syllable.  Also, Siouan vowels are sometimes long.  Does a long vowel count as one syllable or two for purposes of the Siouan accent rule?  If we have a word with the vowel of the first syllable long,

                cvvcv

should Siouan accent it as

                cvvcV

or as

                cvVcv

?

Thanks,
Rory
-- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu<http://listserv.unl.edu/>. Due to Yahoo's DMARC policy: listserv.unl.edu<http://listserv.unl.edu/> lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com
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From rlarson1 at unl.edu  Wed May 28 20:05:37 2014
From: rlarson1 at unl.edu (Rory Larson)
Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 20:05:37 +0000
Subject: FW: Siouan accent and long syllables
Message-ID: <WED.28.MAY.2014.200537.0000.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>



From: Emilia Aigotti [mailto:aigotm at yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2014 2:59 PM
To: Siouan Linguistics
Subject: Re: Siouan accent and long syllables

This sample is phrase initial actually. And I would be game for anything you suggest Bryan. The only problem is that the elicitations I have are single words, phrases or sentences. There is nothing longer. Although I have the 7 minute video (story) from Saul I haven't looked at yet. But that sample is comparatively small and limited.

My second inquiry is looking into the Chiwere word 'waruje' which has various accent marks and numerous meanings and word forms. I know this is Proto-Siouan as well. So any insights from others into this word would be helpful as I begin.

On Wednesday, May 28, 2014 2:44 PM, Bryan James Gordon <linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU<mailto:linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU>> wrote:

Thanks for noticing this Emilia!
We need to run some quantitative analysis to figure out whether vowel length distinctions like this are categorical, let alone phonemic. In the case of final particles like continuative "na", a likely explanation is phrase-final lengthening, which is an ordinary process in all languages as far as I know. Phrase-final lengthening is our tendency to slow down towards the end of a prosodic unit (a sort of melodic/rhythmic "chunk"). Since final particles are often at the end of a prosodic unit, quantitative analysis would look like finding a sample that includes a good number of them both at the end of a prosodic unit and in the middle of one, as well as sampling the "wood" examples both at the end of a prosodic unit and in the middle of one.
It's hard to do this in a corpus by just looking at one example pair like "na" vs. "na", because corpora don't tend to have enough examples in enough contexts to rule out huge sampling biasses and unanticipated confounds. Instead, what we need to do (maybe you and me could collaborate on this Emilia) is look at entire groups of words and morphemes and see if there's evidence for a categorical length distinction. Acoustic fun!
Bryan
On May 28, 2014 2:12 PM, "Rory Larson" <rlarson1 at unl.edu<mailto:rlarson1 at unl.edu>> wrote:


From: Emilia Aigotti [mailto:aigotm at yahoo.com<mailto:aigotm at yahoo.com>]
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2014 2:04 PM
To: Siouan Linguistics
Subject: Re: FW: Siouan accent and long syllables

On the topic of "extra long" vowels as Armik discussed in Witchita, I found a long and extra long sample of the word n? in Chiwere. The long vowel belongs to the word 'tree' and the extra long vowel is a continuative particle. The sample I have is of n? n? side by side so the comparative length is quite obvious. I am wondering if any other Siouan languages have vowel length and "extra long" length.

Emilia

On Thursday, May 22, 2014 12:23 AM, Rory Larson <rlarson1 at unl.edu<mailto:rlarson1 at unl.edu>> wrote:

Bryan, Ryan, and Emilia, thank you very much for your kind responses and good advice.  I will plan to steer clear of the subject of the influence of vowel length on accent in Siouan in my presentation.  :)

See you all soon, hopefully!

Best,
Rory


From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Bryan James Gordon
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 10:08 PM
To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU<mailto:SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>
Subject: Re: FW: Siouan accent and long syllables

I'm aware of good arguments that vowel length doesn't really function to distinguish word pairs in Ioway, Otoe and Missouria, and very rarely serves a distinguishing function in Omaha or Ponca either. However, what I hear in listening to recordings and speakers for both groupings is a bimodal distribution of length on unaccented first syllables. If length is ever "really" distinctive, it's probably first and foremost on unaccented first syllables. At some point I'll get my act together and provide quantitative support for all this speculation.
BJG
On May 21, 2014 9:59 PM, "BJG" <egonxti at gmail.com<mailto:egonxti at gmail.com>> wrote:
I'm aware of good arguments that vowel length doesn't really function to distinguish word pairs in Ioway, Otoe and Missouria, and very rarely serves a distinguishing function in Omaha or Ponca either. However, what I hear in listening to recordings and speakers for both groupings is a bimodal distribution of length on unaccented first syllables. If length is ever "really" distinctive, it's probably first and foremost on unaccented first syllables. At some point I'll get my act together and provide quantitative support for all this speculation.
BJG
On May 21, 2014 4:19 PM, "Loren Frerichs" <lhf at unl.edu<mailto:lhf at unl.edu>> wrote:

________________________________
From: Emilia Aigotti <aigotm at yahoo.com<mailto:aigotm at yahoo.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 15:46
To: Siouan Linguistics
Subject: Re: Siouan accent and long syllables

Did you read about Dorsey's Law? Wolff 1950 has a good explanation of it although I haven't totally wrapped my head around it. Don't forget though, it is believed that Chiwere doesn't have vowel length. Here is an excerpt from my paper from Miner 1979. Not sure this helps at all. I just jumped in on this conversation?

Emilia

3.1.3 Hypotheses on Chiwere/Hooc?k Relationship.  Miner (1979) gives examples of the relationship between accent and stress patterns between Hooc?k and Chiwere.
1. third-mora accent in Winnebago  matches second-syllable accent in                                        Chiwere
2. Chiwere accented initial syllables correspond to Winnebago long                      initial syllables
3. Point two above corresponds to the instrumental prefixes.
This means, accented instrumentals in Chiwere closely resembled lengthened prefixes in Winnebago (and the same being true for unaccented and short vowels). The following is an excerpt from the chart Miner provides (p. 31) on the similarities between Hooc?k and Chiwere instrumentals.

________________________________
From: Ryan Kasak <ryan.kasak at GMAIL.COM<mailto:ryan.kasak at GMAIL.COM>>
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: Siouan accent and long syllables

Regarding Bryan's discussion of the conflict between syllable weight and expected ???? pattern in Chiwere, it could simply be that the Weight-to-Stress Principle of Prince (1990) is ranked higher than the ???? pattern, if we put this in the context of OT tableaux:

WSP>> ????
/baaxoje/

WSP

????

->

a. b?axoje



*



b. baax?je

*!




It is thus more important that heavy syllables attract stress than adhere to the on-the-third-mora tendency we see. This hierarchy could help start to explain the disconnect between when to stress what in Chiwere. I haven't looked much into Hooc?k, so I don't know if this brief observation would hold true there as well.

In Mandan, there is a preference for left-aligned iambs, where long vowels are well-formed iambs: L?, LH?, H?.
/istaw?/  -> [(i.st?).m?] 'eye'
/ruw?k/ -> [(n?.m??k)] 'man'
/w?-ta-w??h-e/ -> [(pta.m???).he] 'my sister'
/p??pi-o??/ -> [(p???).pi??] 'he is thin' (said to male listener)

The only two exceptions to this is in compounds and in words involving preverbs/applicatives /i, e, aa, o/. In compounds, primary stress is assigned to the leftmost-available iamb. If no iamb is available, the stress does not cross the word boundary, resulting in deficient feet, i.e., a foot containing just a stressed ?.

COMPOUNDS:

/pa?/ 'head' + /h?/ 'hair' -> [(p??).h?] 'porcupine'
/w??/ 'stone' + /ti/ 'house' -> [(m???).ti] 'village'
/ho/ 'story' + /kir??r/ 'tell' -> [(h?).ki.na<http://ki.na/>?a.ro<http://a.ro/>??] ?he is story-telling? (said to male listener)

PREVERBS

/i/ directional + /aaki/ `be above' + /ta/ locative -> [(?).?aa.ki.ta] ?upward?
/o/ inessive + /wa/ 1st active + /k?h/ `want something' + /o??/ -> [(?).wa.k?.ho??] 'I want something'

The stress placement in constructions with preverbs suggests that the phonology is sensitive to the morphological structure of non-simplex words. In Anderson?s (1992) A-Morphous Morphology, he calls words like those in the preverbs 'composites,' meaning that there is some internal structure: [?- [wak?ho??]] ?I want something.? The preverb isn't in the same domain as the inflected root is, and the left-aligned iambic stress assignment cannot corss over into the next domain to create a well-formed iamb, due to what Ito and Mester (1999) call a CrispEdge constraint, where some phonological processes are unable to cross certain boundaries.

I haven?t looked super seriously at other Siouan languages? stress patterns, but I think that Lakota/Dakota likewise prefers iambic feet (sans the long vowels like in Mandan) except for cases of compounds and composites, but I'd be interested to see how well that guess plays out.

-Ryan

On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 11:18 AM, Bryan James Gordon <linguist at email.arizona.edu<mailto:linguist at email.arizona.edu>> wrote:
It seems like there is some variation about how vowel length interacts with stress. I never have managed to figure out a simple, neat explanation for how it works in Ponca and Omaha. It seems like if one of the first two syllables has a long vowel, that one usually gets stressed, but not always. Sometimes the stress placement is more an indicator of morphology than phonology, e.g. "ith?e" "I speak" vs. "?thae" "you speak". And when both vowels are underlyingly long it seems to me like there are morphological, phonological and "free" (across- and within-speaker) variations. And then there's the question of why "wa-" "them" seems to like stress more than "wa-" "us". Is "wa-" "them" underlyingly long?
I understand the situation in Ioway, Otoe and Missouria even less. Jimm may be able to help out here. I often notice when comparing recordings with each other or with Jimm's dictionary that words like "Baxoje" "Ioway" are stressed on different syllables by different speakers or even by the same speaker in different contexts. It seems like the first vowel in "Baxoje" is long, so there may be some sort of tension going on here between "Put stress on the third mora" and "Put stress on the first long vowel". The dictionary orthography (I think) puts stress on the first syllable.
On May 21, 2014 7:55 AM, "Rory Larson" <rlarson1 at unl.edu<mailto:rlarson1 at unl.edu>> wrote:
I have a question about the Siouan accent rule that I should know, but don?t.  Generally, Siouan accent likes to go on the second syllable.  Also, Siouan vowels are sometimes long.  Does a long vowel count as one syllable or two for purposes of the Siouan accent rule?  If we have a word with the vowel of the first syllable long,

                cvvcv

should Siouan accent it as

                cvvcV

or as

                cvVcv

?

Thanks,
Rory
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From linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU  Wed May 28 19:44:07 2014
From: linguist at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU (Bryan James Gordon)
Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 12:44:07 -0700
Subject: Siouan accent and long syllables
In-Reply-To: <eb2ef5e3d5174de5a13c1e874e826b1f@DM2PR08MB525.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <WED.28.MAY.2014.124407.0700.SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>

Thanks for noticing this Emilia!

We need to run some quantitative analysis to figure out whether vowel
length distinctions like this are categorical, let alone phonemic. In the
case of final particles like continuative "na", a likely explanation is
phrase-final lengthening, which is an ordinary process in all languages as
far as I know. Phrase-final lengthening is our tendency to slow down
towards the end of a prosodic unit (a sort of melodic/rhythmic "chunk").
Since final particles are often at the end of a prosodic unit, quantitative
analysis would look like finding a sample that includes a good number of
them both at the end of a prosodic unit and in the middle of one, as well
as sampling the "wood" examples both at the end of a prosodic unit and in
the middle of one.

It's hard to do this in a corpus by just looking at one example pair like
"na" vs. "na", because corpora don't tend to have enough examples in enough
contexts to rule out huge sampling biasses and unanticipated confounds.
Instead, what we need to do (maybe you and me could collaborate on this
Emilia) is look at entire groups of words and morphemes and see if there's
evidence for a categorical length distinction. Acoustic fun!

Bryan
On May 28, 2014 2:12 PM, "Rory Larson" <rlarson1 at unl.edu> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* Emilia Aigotti [mailto:aigotm at yahoo.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 28, 2014 2:04 PM
> *To:* Siouan Linguistics
> *Subject:* Re: FW: Siouan accent and long syllables
>
>
>
> On the topic of "extra long" vowels as Armik discussed in Witchita, I
> found a long and extra long sample of the word *n?* in Chiwere. The long
> vowel belongs to the word 'tree' and the extra long vowel is a continuative
> particle. The sample I have is of *n? n?* side by side so the comparative
> length is quite obvious. I am wondering if any other Siouan languages have
> vowel length and "extra long" length.
>
>
>
> *Emilia*
>
>
>
> On Thursday, May 22, 2014 12:23 AM, Rory Larson <rlarson1 at unl.edu> wrote:
>
>
>
> Bryan, Ryan, and Emilia, thank you very much for your kind responses and
> good advice.  I will plan to steer clear of the subject of the influence of
> vowel length on accent in Siouan in my presentation.  :)
>
>
>
> See you all soon, hopefully!
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Rory
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>]
> *On Behalf Of *Bryan James Gordon
> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 21, 2014 10:08 PM
> *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU
> *Subject:* Re: FW: Siouan accent and long syllables
>
>
>
> I'm aware of good arguments that vowel length doesn't really function to
> distinguish word pairs in Ioway, Otoe and Missouria, and very rarely serves
> a distinguishing function in Omaha or Ponca either. However, what I hear in
> listening to recordings and speakers for both groupings is a bimodal
> distribution of length on unaccented first syllables. If length is ever
> "really" distinctive, it's probably first and foremost on unaccented first
> syllables. At some point I'll get my act together and provide quantitative
> support for all this speculation.
> BJG
>
> On May 21, 2014 9:59 PM, "BJG" <egonxti at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'm aware of good arguments that vowel length doesn't really function to
> distinguish word pairs in Ioway, Otoe and Missouria, and very rarely serves
> a distinguishing function in Omaha or Ponca either. However, what I hear in
> listening to recordings and speakers for both groupings is a bimodal
> distribution of length on unaccented first syllables. If length is ever
> "really" distinctive, it's probably first and foremost on unaccented first
> syllables. At some point I'll get my act together and provide quantitative
> support for all this speculation.
>
> BJG
>
> On May 21, 2014 4:19 PM, "Loren Frerichs" <lhf at unl.edu> wrote:
>
>
>   ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Emilia Aigotti <aigotm at yahoo.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 21, 2014 15:46
> *To:* Siouan Linguistics
> *Subject:* Re: Siouan accent and long syllables
>
>
>
> Did you read about Dorsey's Law? Wolff 1950 has a good explanation of it
> although I haven't totally wrapped my head around it. Don't forget though,
> it is believed that Chiwere doesn't have vowel length. Here is an excerpt
> from my paper from Miner 1979. Not sure this helps at all. I just jumped in
> on this conversation?
>
>
>
> Emilia
>
>
>
> *3.1.3 Hypotheses on Chiwere/Hooc?k Relationship.  *Miner (1979) gives
> examples of the relationship between accent and stress patterns between
> Hooc?k and Chiwere.
>
> 1. third-mora accent in Winnebago  matches second-syllable accent in
>                                        Chiwere
>
> 2. Chiwere accented initial syllables correspond to Winnebago long
>                      initial syllables
>
> 3. Point two above corresponds to the instrumental prefixes.
>
> This means, accented instrumentals in Chiwere closely resembled lengthened
> prefixes in Winnebago (and the same being true for unaccented and short
> vowels). The following is an excerpt from the chart Miner provides (p. 31)
> on the similarities between Hooc?k and Chiwere instrumentals.
>
>
>     ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Ryan Kasak <ryan.kasak at GMAIL.COM>
> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 21, 2014 2:36 PM
> *Subject:* Re: Siouan accent and long syllables
>
>
>
> Regarding Bryan's discussion of the conflict between syllable weight and
> expected ???? pattern in Chiwere, it could simply be that the
> Weight-to-Stress Principle of Prince (1990) is ranked higher than the ????
> pattern, if we put this in the context of OT tableaux:
>
>
>
> WSP>> ????
>
> /baaxoje/
>
> WSP
>
> ????
>
> ->
>
> a. b?axoje
>
>
>
> *
>
>
>
> b. baax?je
>
> *!
>
>
>
>
>
> It is thus more important that heavy syllables attract stress than adhere
> to the on-the-third-mora tendency we see. This hierarchy could help start
> to explain the disconnect between when to stress what in Chiwere. I haven't
> looked much into Hooc?k, so I don't know if this brief observation would
> hold true there as well.
>
>
> In Mandan, there is a preference for left-aligned iambs, where long vowels
> are well-formed iambs: L?, LH?, H?.
>
> /istaw?/  -> [(i.st?).m?] 'eye'
>
> /ruw?k/ -> [(n?.m??k)] 'man'
>
> /w?-ta-w??h-e/ -> [(pta.m???).he] 'my sister'
>
> /p??pi-o??/ -> [(p???).pi??] 'he is thin' (said to male listener)
>
>
>
> The only two exceptions to this is in compounds and in words involving
> preverbs/applicatives /i, e, aa, o/. In compounds, primary stress is
> assigned to the leftmost-available iamb. If no iamb is available, the
> stress does not cross the word boundary, resulting in deficient feet, i.e.,
> a foot containing just a stressed ?.
>
>
>
> COMPOUNDS:
>
>
>
> /pa?/ 'head' + /h?/ 'hair' -> [(p??).h?] 'porcupine'
>
> /w??/ 'stone' + /ti/ 'house' -> [(m???).ti] 'village'
>
> /ho/ 'story' + /kir??r/ 'tell' -> [(h?).ki.na?a.ro??] ?he is
> story-telling? (said to male listener)
>
>
>
> PREVERBS
>
>
>
> /i/ directional + /aaki/ `be above' + /ta/ locative -> [(?).?aa.ki.ta]
> ?upward?
>
> /o/ inessive + /wa/ 1st active + /k?h/ `want something' + /o??/ ->
> [(?).wa.k?.ho??] 'I want something'
>
>
>
> The stress placement in constructions with preverbs suggests that the
> phonology is sensitive to the morphological structure of non-simplex words.
> In Anderson?s (1992) *A-Morphous Morphology*, he calls words like those
> in the preverbs 'composites,' meaning that there is some internal
> structure: [?- [wak?ho??]] ?I want something.? The preverb isn't in the
> same domain as the inflected root is, and the left-aligned iambic stress
> assignment cannot corss over into the next domain to create a well-formed
> iamb, due to what Ito and Mester (1999) call a CrispEdge constraint, where
> some phonological processes are unable to cross certain boundaries.
>
>
>
> I haven?t looked super seriously at other Siouan languages? stress
> patterns, but I think that Lakota/Dakota likewise prefers iambic feet (sans
> the long vowels like in Mandan) except for cases of compounds and
> composites, but I'd be interested to see how well that guess plays out.
>
>
>
> -Ryan
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 11:18 AM, Bryan James Gordon <
> linguist at email.arizona.edu> wrote:
>
> It seems like there is some variation about how vowel length interacts
> with stress. I never have managed to figure out a simple, neat explanation
> for how it works in Ponca and Omaha. It seems like if one of the first two
> syllables has a long vowel, that one usually gets stressed, but not always.
> Sometimes the stress placement is more an indicator of morphology than
> phonology, e.g. "ith?e" "I speak" vs. "?thae" "you speak". And when both
> vowels are underlyingly long it seems to me like there are morphological,
> phonological and "free" (across- and within-speaker) variations. And then
> there's the question of why "wa-" "them" seems to like stress more than
> "wa-" "us". Is "wa-" "them" underlyingly long?
>
> I understand the situation in Ioway, Otoe and Missouria even less. Jimm
> may be able to help out here. I often notice when comparing recordings with
> each other or with Jimm's dictionary that words like "Baxoje" "Ioway" are
> stressed on different syllables by different speakers or even by the same
> speaker in different contexts. It seems like the first vowel in "Baxoje" is
> long, so there may be some sort of tension going on here between "Put
> stress on the third mora" and "Put stress on the first long vowel". The
> dictionary orthography (I think) puts stress on the first syllable.
>
> On May 21, 2014 7:55 AM, "Rory Larson" <rlarson1 at unl.edu> wrote:
>
> I have a question about the Siouan accent rule that I should know, but
> don?t.  Generally, Siouan accent likes to go on the second syllable.  Also,
> Siouan vowels are sometimes long.  Does a long vowel count as one syllable
> or two for purposes of the Siouan accent rule?  If we have a word with the
> vowel of the first syllable long,
>
>
>
>                 cvvcv
>
>
>
> should Siouan accent it as
>
>
>
>                 cvvcV
>
>
>
> or as
>
>
>
>                 cvVcv
>
>
>
> ?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Rory
>
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