From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG Wed Sep 3 17:19:29 2014 From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2014 12:19:29 -0500 Subject: Washk=?utf-8?Q?=C4=85_?=in Otoe-Missouria In-Reply-To: <000601cfbca2$aa6a70e0$ff3f52a0$@com> Message-ID: Finally got my computer up and running this morning! I've been going through Dorsey's names and came across this: Wa-ckanˊma-́nyi, Tciwere notation of the Ȼegiha Wackan manȼin, Makes an Effort in Walking, or, Continues to Make an Effort. Sky Campbell Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2014 1:15 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Washką in Otoe-Missouria Thanks for the replies! Sorry for the late reply. Been having a few computer issues on this end and I'd hoped to be able to do more effective digging before I responded. But my problems might not be fixed for another week (waiting on a part) so I thought I'd go ahead and respond anyway. The Walks Strong or Always Strong definitely fits with what I am thinking for that name. However I'd feel much better about that if I found more info on it. Perhaps Dorsey has a few more "washką/iragrį washką" terms attached to other terms in his vocabulary slips. Still, old translations of Great Walker or Great Marcher have me thinking that that is correct. However I still can't ignore the old translation of Fast Dancer which I can JUST see could be formed out of Washką Manyi (wasi/washi (dance) + kąntha (fast) + manyi (always)). While I am leaning heavily towards Always Strong (and other similar translations), there is the possibility that Fast Dancer could also be correct. And I'm not one to declare a "winner" in a situation like this. My determination is irrelevant. The term/name means what it means and so long as there is a possibility of another translation, I am loathe to say "Yep, this is what it means." I like to qualify things like that with "This is what it looks like it says, however it could also mean this..." That's a hard line to walk in a field that likes answers to this sort of thing LOL. But again, thanks for the replies and if anyone has any other information, I'd love to hear it. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Ardis Eschenberg Sent: Monday, August 11, 2014 1:52 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Washką in Otoe-Missouria In addition to ʻDo one’s best,ʻ washkoN is also often translated as ʻbe strong’ (for example, said to one who is grieving) and is used to connote strength, such as in ʻWashkoN tonga,’ meaning strong or muscular. So, could also mean ʻWalks Strong’ or ʻAlways Strong’ for the name given. Ardis Eschenberg, Ph.D. Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs Windward Community College (808) 235-7443 ardise at hawaii.edu On Aug 11, 2014, at 7:51 AM, Catherine Rudin > wrote: Common in Omaha too. At one time it was the UmoNhoN Nation School's sports teams cheer; maybe still is. >>> "Mcbride, Justin" 08/11/14 11:01 AM >>> Just means 'do one's best' in Dhegiha, a far as I've ever seen. It's very common in Osage in particular; it used to be written on the back of all the Language Dept. t-shirts. On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 9:34 AM, Campbell, Sky > wrote: A few weeks ago there was a discussion about the Ioway name "Washką Manyi" and the given translations such as Fast Dancer and Great Walker from historical documents. I also mentioned a Ponca friend of mine with the name Washką Mathi which he translated as Stands Strong. So I've been really interested in the term "washką" and if there was any Otoe equivalent. The closest lead I found was Dorsey giving the Jiwere equivalent of washką as brixe in his Omaha/Ponca slips. But poking through Dorsey's material a while ago I found this term: nan-wañ-́e i-ra-́krin-wa-́shkan - to do his best to dodge or evade the blow, weapon, or pursuer Then I was talking with my assistant today who is pretty knowledgeable in Osage and he mentioned in passing that Osages use "washką" to refer to doing their best. So I looked in Dorsey's material again and found this by itself: nan-wañ-́e - to dodge a blow or weapon; to evade the enemy, or pursuer So that leaves us with i-ra-́krin-wa-́shkan which Dorsey also has a separate slip for. Unfortunately he doesn't translate it here but he does give this phrase: irákrinwashkanˊwi hó Based on what I've seen so far, it looks to be a command to "do your best". But what is really interesting is Dorsey gives this afterward: (eq. to Dh. washkan i-gă) So now we have a direct comparison of the Otoe "iragrį washką" and Dhegiha "washką". Has anyone else seen something like this floating around their respective languages? I'm curious what the "iragrį" is doing here and why it is omitted for its Dhegiha equivalent. And now because of the idea of "best" it has me wondering if this term is related to "wexa" (best). Anyone have any thoughts? If this term does in fact refer to doing your best, then the name "Washką Manyi" could perhaps roughly translate to "He Always Does His Best." Sky Campbell Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org ­­ -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kathleendshea at GMAIL.COM Wed Sep 3 23:25:11 2014 From: kathleendshea at GMAIL.COM (Kathleen D. Shea) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2014 18:25:11 -0500 Subject: Washk=?utf-8?Q?=C4=85_?=in Otoe-Missouria In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E436D2A6151E2A@Server6-EX.omtribe.net> Message-ID: Sky, I'm sorry to be replying so late. I'm more familiar with Ponca than Ioway-Otoe. I think that, in the case of your Ponca friend who has the name was^kaN maNthiN (I don't know how to access the special characters in e-mail that you're using, so I'm using a vowel followed by an uppercase N for a nasal vowel and a carrot for a hacek on the previous letter), maNthiN can't be taken literally but means something like 'being, existing.' A Ponca-speaking friend of mine, who prefers to remain anonymous, made friends with my brother's cat, Smoky, a couple of years ago and decided to give him a Ponca name, xude maNthiN, which he translated roughly as 'being gray,' 'going around gray,' or 'existing gray.' (By the way, Smoky Shea has his own Facebook page and announced his new name there.) I think that the English translation your friend gave you for his name, 'standing strong' probably captures the meaning fairly well, where 'standing' is also not meant to be understood in a literal sense. In Ponca, was^kaN can also mean 'muscle.' Kathy Shea Sent from my iPad > On Sep 3, 2014, at 12:19 PM, "Campbell, Sky" wrote: > > Finally got my computer up and running this morning! I've been going through Dorsey's names and came across this: > > Wa-ckanˊma-́nyi, Tciwere notation of the Ȼegiha Wackan manȼin, Makes an Effort in Walking, or, Continues to Make an Effort. > > Sky Campbell > Language Director > Otoe-Missouria Tribe > (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 > sky at omtribe.org > > From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell > Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2014 1:15 PM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Re: Washką in Otoe-Missouria > > Thanks for the replies! Sorry for the late reply. Been having a few computer issues on this end and I'd hoped to be able to do more effective digging before I responded. But my problems might not be fixed for another week (waiting on a part) so I thought I'd go ahead and respond anyway. > > The Walks Strong or Always Strong definitely fits with what I am thinking for that name. However I'd feel much better about that if I found more info on it. Perhaps Dorsey has a few more "washką/iragrį washką" terms attached to other terms in his vocabulary slips. Still, old translations of Great Walker or Great Marcher have me thinking that that is correct. However I still can't ignore the old translation of Fast Dancer which I can JUST see could be formed out of Washką Manyi (wasi/washi (dance) + kąntha (fast) + manyi (always)). While I am leaning heavily towards Always Strong (and other similar translations), there is the possibility that Fast Dancer could also be correct. And I'm not one to declare a "winner" in a situation like this. My determination is irrelevant. The term/name means what it means and so long as there is a possibility of another translation, I am loathe to say "Yep, this is what it means." I like to qualify things like that with "This is what it looks like it says, however it could also mean this..." That's a hard line to walk in a field that likes answers to this sort of thing LOL. > > But again, thanks for the replies and if anyone has any other information, I'd love to hear it. > > Sky > > From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Ardis Eschenberg > Sent: Monday, August 11, 2014 1:52 PM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Re: Washką in Otoe-Missouria > > In addition to ʻDo one’s best,ʻ washkoN is also often translated as ʻbe strong’ (for example, said to one who is grieving) and is used to connote strength, such as in ʻWashkoN tonga,’ meaning strong or muscular. > > So, could also mean ʻWalks Strong’ or ʻAlways Strong’ for the name given. > > > Ardis Eschenberg, Ph.D. > Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs > Windward Community College > (808) 235-7443 > ardise at hawaii.edu > > > > > > On Aug 11, 2014, at 7:51 AM, Catherine Rudin wrote: > > > Common in Omaha too. At one time it was the UmoNhoN Nation School's sports teams cheer; maybe still is. > > >>> "Mcbride, Justin" 08/11/14 11:01 AM >>> > Just means 'do one's best' in Dhegiha, a far as I've ever seen. It's very common in Osage in particular; it used to be written on the back of all the Language Dept. t-shirts. > > > On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 9:34 AM, Campbell, Sky wrote: > A few weeks ago there was a discussion about the Ioway name "Washką Manyi" and the given translations such as Fast Dancer and Great Walker from historical documents. I also mentioned a Ponca friend of mine with the name Washką Mathi which he translated as Stands Strong. So I've been really interested in the term "washką" and if there was any Otoe equivalent. The closest lead I found was Dorsey giving the Jiwere equivalent of washką as brixe in his Omaha/Ponca slips. > > But poking through Dorsey's material a while ago I found this term: > > nan-wañ-́e i-ra-́krin-wa-́shkan - to do his best to dodge or evade the blow, weapon, or pursuer > > Then I was talking with my assistant today who is pretty knowledgeable in Osage and he mentioned in passing that Osages use "washką" to refer to doing their best. So I looked in Dorsey's material again and found this by itself: > > nan-wañ-́e - to dodge a blow or weapon; to evade the enemy, or pursuer > > So that leaves us with i-ra-́krin-wa-́shkan which Dorsey also has a separate slip for. Unfortunately he doesn't translate it here but he does give this phrase: > > irákrinwashkanˊwi hó > > Based on what I've seen so far, it looks to be a command to "do your best". But what is really interesting is Dorsey gives this afterward: > > (eq. to Dh. washkan i-gă) > > So now we have a direct comparison of the Otoe "iragrį washką" and Dhegiha "washką". Has anyone else seen something like this floating around their respective languages? I'm curious what the "iragrį" is doing here and why it is omitted for its Dhegiha equivalent. And now because of the idea of "best" it has me wondering if this term is related to "wexa" (best). > > Anyone have any thoughts? If this term does in fact refer to doing your best, then the name "Washką Manyi" could perhaps roughly translate to "He Always Does His Best." > > Sky Campbell > Language Director > Otoe-Missouria Tribe > (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 > sky at omtribe.org > > > ­­ > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Thu Sep 4 01:13:32 2014 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM (Sky Campbell) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2014 20:13:32 -0500 Subject: Washk=?utf-8?Q?=C4=85_?=in Otoe-Missouria In-Reply-To: <2DD45129-5C30-4877-BCA5-EEC17EA1FD69@gmail.com> Message-ID: I like that! I don't think I've seen that exact sense for Otoe (if I have, I can't think of it off the top of my head) but it does sure seem to fit in some cases where walk, move, and always doesn't quite seem to fit (although that last one comes close). Actually, I just thought of a possible example from Rev. Moses Merrill's History of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ (1837) where he translates a decent chunk of the Bible. Here is what he has for Luke, Chapter 2, Verse 8: Wdnoce lketl wdhseka mlel swdra wdmenunei, hlha kerowa tlncewd wdnoce krlketl mlginei. The Bible verse is: And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night. What I am after is at the end. ...wdnoce grakida mlginei. Which in our orthography would be: ...wanusje grakida maðinye. animals - watch-over-their-own - they-always??? This is one of those ultra rare examples of an older Otoe source using "maði" rather than "manyi". What is the "maði" doing here? (FYI the suffix -nye means "they"). Could it mean they are "always" watching over their flock? I suppose. But to me it seems like the idea is what they are doing on this particular night which really has me thinking about your "being" or "existing" senses and that maybe they could be applied here. But can "doing" mean the same as "being"? Not sure. I'm going to keep this in the back of my mind...especially as it can perhaps apply to names (like my friend's) and see if anything "clicks" in my mind. Otoe also uses "ką" for muscle. I've also found translations of it to be artery, vein, and sinew. I've also even found the term "aką" to mean pulse LOL. Cool stuff :). But along this line, I've also heard from my wife's uncle (my wife is Ponca) that he had been told that the word Ponca might mean something like "head muscle" or something to that effect. I've never delved into what the translation of "Ponca" means but your mention of muscle reminded me of it. I also seem to remember him saying something along the lines of "sacred head" as well. This was several years ago though. Thanks again for this info! It gives me an entirely different angle to approach this term! Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Kathleen D. Shea Sent: Wednesday, September 3, 2014 6:25 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Washką in Otoe-Missouria Sky, I'm sorry to be replying so late. I'm more familiar with Ponca than Ioway-Otoe. I think that, in the case of your Ponca friend who has the name was^kaN maNthiN (I don't know how to access the special characters in e-mail that you're using, so I'm using a vowel followed by an uppercase N for a nasal vowel and a carrot for a hacek on the previous letter), maNthiN can't be taken literally but means something like 'being, existing.' A Ponca-speaking friend of mine, who prefers to remain anonymous, made friends with my brother's cat, Smoky, a couple of years ago and decided to give him a Ponca name, xude maNthiN, which he translated roughly as 'being gray,' 'going around gray,' or 'existing gray.' (By the way, Smoky Shea has his own Facebook page and announced his new name there.) I think that the English translation your friend gave you for his name, 'standing strong' probably captures the meaning fairly well, where 'standing' is also not meant to be understood in a literal sense. In Ponca, was^kaN can also mean 'muscle.' Kathy Shea Sent from my iPad On Sep 3, 2014, at 12:19 PM, "Campbell, Sky" wrote: Finally got my computer up and running this morning! I've been going through Dorsey's names and came across this: Wa-ckanˊma-́nyi, Tciwere notation of the Ȼegiha Wackan manȼin, Makes an Effort in Walking, or, Continues to Make an Effort. Sky Campbell Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2014 1:15 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Washką in Otoe-Missouria Thanks for the replies! Sorry for the late reply. Been having a few computer issues on this end and I'd hoped to be able to do more effective digging before I responded. But my problems might not be fixed for another week (waiting on a part) so I thought I'd go ahead and respond anyway. The Walks Strong or Always Strong definitely fits with what I am thinking for that name. However I'd feel much better about that if I found more info on it. Perhaps Dorsey has a few more "washką/iragrį washką" terms attached to other terms in his vocabulary slips. Still, old translations of Great Walker or Great Marcher have me thinking that that is correct. However I still can't ignore the old translation of Fast Dancer which I can JUST see could be formed out of Washką Manyi (wasi/washi (dance) + kąntha (fast) + manyi (always)). While I am leaning heavily towards Always Strong (and other similar translations), there is the possibility that Fast Dancer could also be correct. And I'm not one to declare a "winner" in a situation like this. My determination is irrelevant. The term/name means what it means and so long as there is a possibility of another translation, I am loathe to say "Yep, this is what it means." I like to qualify things like that with "This is what it looks like it says, however it could also mean this..." That's a hard line to walk in a field that likes answers to this sort of thing LOL. But again, thanks for the replies and if anyone has any other information, I'd love to hear it. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Ardis Eschenberg Sent: Monday, August 11, 2014 1:52 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Washką in Otoe-Missouria In addition to ʻDo one’s best,ʻ washkoN is also often translated as ʻbe strong’ (for example, said to one who is grieving) and is used to connote strength, such as in ʻWashkoN tonga,’ meaning strong or muscular. So, could also mean ʻWalks Strong’ or ʻAlways Strong’ for the name given. Ardis Eschenberg, Ph.D. Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs Windward Community College (808) 235-7443 ardise at hawaii.edu On Aug 11, 2014, at 7:51 AM, Catherine Rudin wrote: Common in Omaha too. At one time it was the UmoNhoN Nation School's sports teams cheer; maybe still is. >>> "Mcbride, Justin" 08/11/14 11:01 AM >>> Just means 'do one's best' in Dhegiha, a far as I've ever seen. It's very common in Osage in particular; it used to be written on the back of all the Language Dept. t-shirts. On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 9:34 AM, Campbell, Sky wrote: A few weeks ago there was a discussion about the Ioway name "Washką Manyi" and the given translations such as Fast Dancer and Great Walker from historical documents. I also mentioned a Ponca friend of mine with the name Washką Mathi which he translated as Stands Strong. So I've been really interested in the term "washką" and if there was any Otoe equivalent. The closest lead I found was Dorsey giving the Jiwere equivalent of washką as brixe in his Omaha/Ponca slips. But poking through Dorsey's material a while ago I found this term: nan-wañ-́e i-ra-́krin-wa-́shkan - to do his best to dodge or evade the blow, weapon, or pursuer Then I was talking with my assistant today who is pretty knowledgeable in Osage and he mentioned in passing that Osages use "washką" to refer to doing their best. So I looked in Dorsey's material again and found this by itself: nan-wañ-́e - to dodge a blow or weapon; to evade the enemy, or pursuer So that leaves us with i-ra-́krin-wa-́shkan which Dorsey also has a separate slip for. Unfortunately he doesn't translate it here but he does give this phrase: irákrinwashkanˊwi hó Based on what I've seen so far, it looks to be a command to "do your best". But what is really interesting is Dorsey gives this afterward: (eq. to Dh. washkan i-gă) So now we have a direct comparison of the Otoe "iragrį washką" and Dhegiha "washką". Has anyone else seen something like this floating around their respective languages? I'm curious what the "iragrį" is doing here and why it is omitted for its Dhegiha equivalent. And now because of the idea of "best" it has me wondering if this term is related to "wexa" (best). Anyone have any thoughts? If this term does in fact refer to doing your best, then the name "Washką Manyi" could perhaps roughly translate to "He Always Does His Best." Sky Campbell Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org ­­ -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu . listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu . listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu . listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kathleendshea at GMAIL.COM Thu Sep 4 02:38:23 2014 From: kathleendshea at GMAIL.COM (Kathleen D. Shea) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2014 21:38:23 -0500 Subject: Washk=?utf-8?Q?=C4=85_?=in Otoe-Missouria In-Reply-To: <000f01cfc7dd$72590450$570b0cf0$@com> Message-ID: Yes, in Ponca, kkaNaN also means vein, sinew, tree root--anything stringy or fibrous. For instance, maNaNdee kkaNaN means 'bowstring' (also a boy's baby name). However, I think a word more closely related to was^kaNaN 'muscle; be strong' might be s^kaNaNs^kaNaN (reduplicated) 'moving,' as in iNde aabaaxuu s^kaNaNs^kaNaN 'moving pictures (i.e., movies).' (I'm sorry it's so cumbersome to write the long vowels in e-mail as double. I don't know how to write a raised dot either in e-mail, indicating length. By the way, my source tells me that the second syllable of the word for 'muscle; be strong' is long--in his words, "cut off" because of vowel length being realized as falling pitch, creaky voice, or a slight glottal stop.) Kathy Sent from my iPad > On Sep 3, 2014, at 8:13 PM, Sky Campbell wrote: > > I like that! I don't think I've seen that exact sense for Otoe (if I have, I can't think of it off the top of my head) but it does sure seem to fit in some cases where walk, move, and always doesn't quite seem to fit (although that last one comes close). Actually, I just thought of a possible example from Rev. Moses Merrill's History of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ (1837) where he translates a decent chunk of the Bible. Here is what he has for Luke, Chapter 2, Verse 8: > > Wdnoce lketl wdhseka mlel swdra wdmenunei, hlha kerowa tlncewd wdnoce krlketl mlginei. > > The Bible verse is: > > And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night. > > What I am after is at the end. > > ...wdnoce grakida mlginei. > > Which in our orthography would be: > > ...wanusje grakida maðinye. > > animals - watch-over-their-own - they-always??? > > This is one of those ultra rare examples of an older Otoe source using "maði" rather than "manyi". What is the "maði" doing here? (FYI the suffix -nye means "they"). Could it mean they are "always" watching over their flock? I suppose. But to me it seems like the idea is what they are doing on this particular night which really has me thinking about your "being" or "existing" senses and that maybe they could be applied here. But can "doing" mean the same as "being"? Not sure. I'm going to keep this in the back of my mind...especially as it can perhaps apply to names (like my friend's) and see if anything "clicks" in my mind. > > Otoe also uses "ką" for muscle. I've also found translations of it to be artery, vein, and sinew. I've also even found the term "aką" to mean pulse LOL. Cool stuff :). But along this line, I've also heard from my wife's uncle (my wife is Ponca) that he had been told that the word Ponca might mean something like "head muscle" or something to that effect. I've never delved into what the translation of "Ponca" means but your mention of muscle reminded me of it. I also seem to remember him saying something along the lines of "sacred head" as well. This was several years ago though. > > Thanks again for this info! It gives me an entirely different angle to approach this term! > > Sky > > > > From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Kathleen D. Shea > Sent: Wednesday, September 3, 2014 6:25 PM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Re: Washką in Otoe-Missouria > > Sky, > > I'm sorry to be replying so late. I'm more familiar with Ponca than Ioway-Otoe. I think that, in the case of your Ponca friend who has the name was^kaN maNthiN (I don't know how to access the special characters in e-mail that you're using, so I'm using a vowel followed by an uppercase N for a nasal vowel and a carrot for a hacek on the previous letter), maNthiN can't be taken literally but means something like 'being, existing.' A Ponca-speaking friend of mine, who prefers to remain anonymous, made friends with my brother's cat, Smoky, a couple of years ago and decided to give him a Ponca name, xude maNthiN, which he translated roughly as 'being gray,' 'going around gray,' or 'existing gray.' (By the way, Smoky Shea has his own Facebook page and announced his new name there.) I think that the English translation your friend gave you for his name, 'standing strong' probably captures the meaning fairly well, where 'standing' is also not meant to be understood in a literal sense. In Ponca, was^kaN can also mean 'muscle.' > > Kathy Shea > > Sent from my iPad > > On Sep 3, 2014, at 12:19 PM, "Campbell, Sky" wrote: > > Finally got my computer up and running this morning! I've been going through Dorsey's names and came across this: > > Wa-ckanˊma-́nyi, Tciwere notation of the Ȼegiha Wackan manȼin, Makes an Effort in Walking, or, Continues to Make an Effort. > > Sky Campbell > Language Director > Otoe-Missouria Tribe > (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 > sky at omtribe.org > > From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell > Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2014 1:15 PM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Re: Washką in Otoe-Missouria > > Thanks for the replies! Sorry for the late reply. Been having a few computer issues on this end and I'd hoped to be able to do more effective digging before I responded. But my problems might not be fixed for another week (waiting on a part) so I thought I'd go ahead and respond anyway. > > The Walks Strong or Always Strong definitely fits with what I am thinking for that name. However I'd feel much better about that if I found more info on it. Perhaps Dorsey has a few more "washką/iragrį washką" terms attached to other terms in his vocabulary slips. Still, old translations of Great Walker or Great Marcher have me thinking that that is correct. However I still can't ignore the old translation of Fast Dancer which I can JUST see could be formed out of Washką Manyi (wasi/washi (dance) + kąntha (fast) + manyi (always)). While I am leaning heavily towards Always Strong (and other similar translations), there is the possibility that Fast Dancer could also be correct. And I'm not one to declare a "winner" in a situation like this. My determination is irrelevant. The term/name means what it means and so long as there is a possibility of another translation, I am loathe to say "Yep, this is what it means." I like to qualify things like that with "This is what it looks like it says, however it could also mean this..." That's a hard line to walk in a field that likes answers to this sort of thing LOL. > > But again, thanks for the replies and if anyone has any other information, I'd love to hear it. > > Sky > > From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Ardis Eschenberg > Sent: Monday, August 11, 2014 1:52 PM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Re: Washką in Otoe-Missouria > > In addition to ʻDo one’s best,ʻ washkoN is also often translated as ʻbe strong’ (for example, said to one who is grieving) and is used to connote strength, such as in ʻWashkoN tonga,’ meaning strong or muscular. > > So, could also mean ʻWalks Strong’ or ʻAlways Strong’ for the name given. > > > Ardis Eschenberg, Ph.D. > Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs > Windward Community College > (808) 235-7443 > ardise at hawaii.edu > > > > > > On Aug 11, 2014, at 7:51 AM, Catherine Rudin wrote: > > > Common in Omaha too. At one time it was the UmoNhoN Nation School's sports teams cheer; maybe still is. > > >>> "Mcbride, Justin" 08/11/14 11:01 AM >>> > Just means 'do one's best' in Dhegiha, a far as I've ever seen. It's very common in Osage in particular; it used to be written on the back of all the Language Dept. t-shirts. > > > On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 9:34 AM, Campbell, Sky wrote: > A few weeks ago there was a discussion about the Ioway name "Washką Manyi" and the given translations such as Fast Dancer and Great Walker from historical documents. I also mentioned a Ponca friend of mine with the name Washką Mathi which he translated as Stands Strong. So I've been really interested in the term "washką" and if there was any Otoe equivalent. The closest lead I found was Dorsey giving the Jiwere equivalent of washką as brixe in his Omaha/Ponca slips. > > But poking through Dorsey's material a while ago I found this term: > > nan-wañ-́e i-ra-́krin-wa-́shkan - to do his best to dodge or evade the blow, weapon, or pursuer > > Then I was talking with my assistant today who is pretty knowledgeable in Osage and he mentioned in passing that Osages use "washką" to refer to doing their best. So I looked in Dorsey's material again and found this by itself: > > nan-wañ-́e - to dodge a blow or weapon; to evade the enemy, or pursuer > > So that leaves us with i-ra-́krin-wa-́shkan which Dorsey also has a separate slip for. Unfortunately he doesn't translate it here but he does give this phrase: > > irákrinwashkanˊwi hó > > Based on what I've seen so far, it looks to be a command to "do your best". But what is really interesting is Dorsey gives this afterward: > > (eq. to Dh. washkan i-gă) > > So now we have a direct comparison of the Otoe "iragrį washką" and Dhegiha "washką". Has anyone else seen something like this floating around their respective languages? I'm curious what the "iragrį" is doing here and why it is omitted for its Dhegiha equivalent. And now because of the idea of "best" it has me wondering if this term is related to "wexa" (best). > > Anyone have any thoughts? If this term does in fact refer to doing your best, then the name "Washką Manyi" could perhaps roughly translate to "He Always Does His Best." > > Sky Campbell > Language Director > Otoe-Missouria Tribe > (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 > sky at omtribe.org > > > ­­ > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Thu Sep 4 18:09:31 2014 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2014 18:09:31 +0000 Subject: Washk=?utf-8?Q?=C4=85_?=in Otoe-Missouria In-Reply-To: <000f01cfc7dd$72590450$570b0cf0$@com> Message-ID: Ø This is one of those ultra rare examples of an older Otoe source using "maði" rather than "manyi". What is the "maði" doing here? (FYI the suffix -nye means "they"). Could it mean they are "always" watching over their flock? I suppose. But to me it seems like the idea is what they are doing on this particular night which really has me thinking about your "being" or "existing" senses and that maybe they could be applied here. But can "doing" mean the same as "being"? Not sure. I'm going to keep this in the back of my mind...especially as it can perhaps apply to names (like my friend's) and see if anything "clicks" in my mind. I think one way to look at this is as a Siouan equivalent of the progressive aspect. What’s being signalled here is that the action was going on at the time that something else occurred. So if the shepherds were watching their flocks, that’s part of the background that the speaker is painting for you in preparation for the main event they are going to tell. In European languages, we generally have some simple verbal device for presenting the progressive. In English, we use some form of “be”, plus the action verb, plus “-ing”: the shepherds were watch-ing. But in at least some of the Siouan languages, one of about four basic verbs of position/motion is used after the main verb: ‘lie’, ‘sit’, ‘stand’, or ‘walk’. This allows Siouan speakers to express not only the progressive aspect, but also a special nuance of that aspect. This could be literally the position of the party doing it, or more abstractly, how general the action’s ongoingness is. In Omaha, at least, I believe that ‘sit’ generally means that the condition is a temporary and conditional sort of thing, while ‘walk’ is something habitual or characteristic. Thus, you might have several choices in signalling the progressive aspect. If the shepherds WALK-watch their flocks, they are walking about and making their rounds in their activity. If they STAND-watch their flocks, they are standing up, looking on in a state of dynamic tension. If they SIT-watch their flocks, they are watching while sitting down and relaxed. If they LIE-watch their flocks, then they are sacked out on the job. But in a more abstract way, if they WALK-watch their flocks, the activity is open-ended. The shepherds, habitually and characteristically, are always doing it. But if they SIT-watch their flocks, the activity is temporary and conditional. That would imply that the shepherds just happened to be watching them at the moment of the main event, but probably hadn’t been watching them long before, and probably wouldn’t be watching them much longer. It would be happenstance behavior, not their normal activity. In names, these position/motion modifiers wouldn’t exactly imply the progressive aspect as they do in full sentences, but the mode of the behavior would still be in force. So Xude-moNthiN, ‘Walks Gray’, would mean that the cat goes around characteristically manifesting grayness. Similarly, WashkaN-moNthiN would be the name for a person that goes around manifesting strong, vigorous activity. (In Omaha, at least, shkaN means ‘to move’. With the wa- prefix in front of it, wa-shkaN seems to mean the characteristic of being active, showing strength. So we would probably translate it as ‘strong’ or ‘active’. Think of someone who is hard-working and busy, constantly seeing things that need to be done and doing them, like a good leader.) Best, Rory -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Fri Sep 5 01:21:28 2014 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM (Sky Campbell) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2014 20:21:28 -0500 Subject: Washk=?utf-8?Q?=C4=85_?=in Otoe-Missouria In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks for the explanation :). It has helped me form the concept in my mind. I know that Hamilton and Irvin wrote about this in their An Ioway Grammar (1848). They wrote When continued or habitual action, or position, is expressed, the verb is compounded with me-na-kæ (miną) he sits, na-yæ-kæ (nayį) he stands, or ma-nyæ-kæ (manyi) he walks. The first two refer to place or position. The last, when forming a part of the verb, always implies continuation or perpetuity; as, Un-ce-me-na-kæ. (Ųnjį miną ke) He keeps striking me. (i.e. while he is sitting) Jka-cæ-na-yæ-kæ. (Skaje nayį ke) He continues playing. (i.e. while he is standing) U-ma-nyæ-kæ. ('Ų manyi ke) He always does so. e-ha-ha-ha-ma-nyæ-skæ (ihax'ą hamanyisge) as long as I live Hæ-kra-he-ha-ma-nyæ-kæ (Hegrahi hamanyi ke). I always love. That "as long as I live" example that they give really goes with your explanation so I'm definitely going to delve more into this. I've seen it before but perhaps the time wasn't right for me to see more of its meaning. Just needed a nudge I guess :). Your mention of "shkaN" meaning "to move" has me curious about another name. I found in Rev. Moses Merrill's diary the name "Iskutupe" (I think that is how he spelled it...doing this from memory LOL) is mentioned (which I'm guessing would be spelled in our current orthography as Iskątabi or Ishkątabi. Dorsey also lists this name among his Otoe names but only mentions that it is an Omaha name and doesn't translate it. This makes sense since Merrill says his father was Shųnkabi (Big Horse's (of Lewis and Clark fame) son). Dorsey says that that name is also an Omaha name and translates it as Heavy Cloud (Ponca Hisada clan?). Does this name ring a bell with you at all? I haven't been able to figure it out through my Otoe sources yet. But today (of all days LOL) I got an email from a tribal member who has an Otoe-Ponca friend who was curious about their name. They didn't know if it was Otoe or Ponca but they gave "Iskąbade. It sounds Ponca to me and if you flip the b and d, you get the name I have above. But the "bade" reminds me of the Otoe "baje" (canoe/boat). Also, I reference Hamilton and Irvin's An Ioway Grammar quite a bit and transcribed it about 3 years ago. Right now I am almost finished transliterating it. It has been an incredible resource for me and it might be to you guys as well so if anyone wants either version (strict transcription or transliteration to our orthography), let me know. It is incredibly useful to search through since it is a nice, clean copy. I've also transcribed their other books (Elementary Book of the Ioway Language and Original Hymns In the Ioway Language (both 1843) and also am almost done transliterating the Elementary book as well. Those will be available soon. I've also transcribed all of Merrill's Otoe books and am currently transliterating his as well (his are MUCH tougher!). So if anyone wants copies of these for their own research on their respective Siouan language(s), let me know. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Thursday, September 4, 2014 1:10 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Washką in Otoe-Missouria Ø This is one of those ultra rare examples of an older Otoe source using "maði" rather than "manyi". What is the "maði" doing here? (FYI the suffix -nye means "they"). Could it mean they are "always" watching over their flock? I suppose. But to me it seems like the idea is what they are doing on this particular night which really has me thinking about your "being" or "existing" senses and that maybe they could be applied here. But can "doing" mean the same as "being"? Not sure. I'm going to keep this in the back of my mind...especially as it can perhaps apply to names (like my friend's) and see if anything "clicks" in my mind. I think one way to look at this is as a Siouan equivalent of the progressive aspect. What’s being signalled here is that the action was going on at the time that something else occurred. So if the shepherds were watching their flocks, that’s part of the background that the speaker is painting for you in preparation for the main event they are going to tell. In European languages, we generally have some simple verbal device for presenting the progressive. In English, we use some form of “be”, plus the action verb, plus “-ing”: the shepherds were watch-ing. But in at least some of the Siouan languages, one of about four basic verbs of position/motion is used after the main verb: ‘lie’, ‘sit’, ‘stand’, or ‘walk’. This allows Siouan speakers to express not only the progressive aspect, but also a special nuance of that aspect. This could be literally the position of the party doing it, or more abstractly, how general the action’s ongoingness is. In Omaha, at least, I believe that ‘sit’ generally means that the condition is a temporary and conditional sort of thing, while ‘walk’ is something habitual or characteristic. Thus, you might have several choices in signalling the progressive aspect. If the shepherds WALK-watch their flocks, they are walking about and making their rounds in their activity. If they STAND-watch their flocks, they are standing up, looking on in a state of dynamic tension. If they SIT-watch their flocks, they are watching while sitting down and relaxed. If they LIE-watch their flocks, then they are sacked out on the job. But in a more abstract way, if they WALK-watch their flocks, the activity is open-ended. The shepherds, habitually and characteristically, are always doing it. But if they SIT-watch their flocks, the activity is temporary and conditional. That would imply that the shepherds just happened to be watching them at the moment of the main event, but probably hadn’t been watching them long before, and probably wouldn’t be watching them much longer. It would be happenstance behavior, not their normal activity. In names, these position/motion modifiers wouldn’t exactly imply the progressive aspect as they do in full sentences, but the mode of the behavior would still be in force. So Xude-moNthiN, ‘Walks Gray’, would mean that the cat goes around characteristically manifesting grayness. Similarly, WashkaN-moNthiN would be the name for a person that goes around manifesting strong, vigorous activity. (In Omaha, at least, shkaN means ‘to move’. With the wa- prefix in front of it, wa-shkaN seems to mean the characteristic of being active, showing strength. So we would probably translate it as ‘strong’ or ‘active’. Think of someone who is hard-working and busy, constantly seeing things that need to be done and doing them, like a good leader.) Best, Rory -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Fri Sep 5 14:22:53 2014 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2014 14:22:53 +0000 Subject: Washk=?utf-8?Q?=C4=85_?=in Otoe-Missouria In-Reply-To: <004a01cfc8a7$b7f7d5c0$27e78140$@com> Message-ID: Sky, I’m glad the explanation helped. Tangentially, let me correct one thing I said: Ø In European languages, we generally have some simple verbal device for presenting the progressive. I did a little checking with Google and Wikipedia after I sent out the message, and it turns out that the progressive as a verbal form is not so common in European languages as I was assuming. Notably, it seems it is not present in French, German, or the continental Scandinavian languages. Apparently it is present mainly along the western fringes of Europe: Spanish and Portuguese, English, Icelandic, all of the Celtic languages, and perhaps marginally at least in Dutch and Italian. An intriguing suggestion is that it might be substrate feature of Celtic. I wonder if anyone with European expertise has any thoughts to add to this? For Omaha and Ponca names, we usually consult the lists given in Volume I of The Omaha Tribe, by Alice C. Fletcher and Francis La Flesche. These are broken out by clan or subclan and by gender, and are scattered through a good chunk of the book, so it takes a while to find anything if you don’t know the clan and gender. I haven’t checked the book thoroughly, but for the Ponca Hisada clan there are some likely matches to the names you mention. First, let’s confirm the spelling of Merrill’s “Iskutupe”. I haven’t seen, and don’t recognize, anything quite like that, but there is a common name “Iⁿshta-duba”, translated as “Four-Eyes”, which shows up in Omaha lists as well as the Ponca Hisada clan. If Big Horse’s name is actually “Shuⁿka-bi”, then the “shuⁿka” part of that should be equivalent to the Dakotan word for ‘dog’, ‘wolf’ or ‘horse’. Presumably Lewis and Clark understood it that way, and that would be how he got the name “Big Horse” in English. But what shows up in the Fletcher & La Flesche lists doesn’t have nasalization of the [u]. Instead, they have “Shúkabi”, translated as “Bunch of clouds”. There is also the name “Shukámoⁿthiⁿ”, translated as “Walking in groups”. Under the Omaha Honga clan, they have the same name listed as “Shúkamoⁿthiⁿ”, where they specifically translate “Shúka” as meaning “groups”, but say that the reference is uncertain. This is a word to try to check with our speakers, but I would guess that it refers to clouds forming in clusters. I don’t recognize “Iskąbade”, but I can say that “bade” won’t work as ‘boat’ in Omaha or Ponca. The word there is moⁿdé, with accent on the second syllable to distinguish it from móⁿde, ‘bow’. Kaw would be a better bet, where it is bajé, but that’s about the same as in Otoe except for the accent. The Comparative Siouan Dictionary team believed that the ‘boat’ word was probably a loan word from Algonquian, but at least for MVS it could probably be reconstructed as *Wate, where [W] represents “funny w”, a sound that became /p/ or /b/ in Osage, Kaw, and apparently IOM, but /m/ in Omaha and Ponca. I would love to have copies of your Ioway and Otoe transcriptions. That would be very useful! Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2014 8:21 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: Washką in Otoe-Missouria Thanks for the explanation :). It has helped me form the concept in my mind. I know that Hamilton and Irvin wrote about this in their An Ioway Grammar (1848). They wrote When continued or habitual action, or position, is expressed, the verb is compounded with me-na-kæ (miną) he sits, na-yæ-kæ (nayį) he stands, or ma-nyæ-kæ (manyi) he walks. The first two refer to place or position. The last, when forming a part of the verb, always implies continuation or perpetuity; as, Un-ce-me-na-kæ. (Ųnjį miną ke) He keeps striking me. (i.e. while he is sitting) Jka-cæ-na-yæ-kæ. (Skaje nayį ke) He continues playing. (i.e. while he is standing) U-ma-nyæ-kæ. ('Ų manyi ke) He always does so. e-ha-ha-ha-ma-nyæ-skæ (ihax'ą hamanyisge) as long as I live Hæ-kra-he-ha-ma-nyæ-kæ (Hegrahi hamanyi ke). I always love. That "as long as I live" example that they give really goes with your explanation so I'm definitely going to delve more into this. I've seen it before but perhaps the time wasn't right for me to see more of its meaning. Just needed a nudge I guess :). Your mention of "shkaN" meaning "to move" has me curious about another name. I found in Rev. Moses Merrill's diary the name "Iskutupe" (I think that is how he spelled it...doing this from memory LOL) is mentioned (which I'm guessing would be spelled in our current orthography as Iskątabi or Ishkątabi. Dorsey also lists this name among his Otoe names but only mentions that it is an Omaha name and doesn't translate it. This makes sense since Merrill says his father was Shųnkabi (Big Horse's (of Lewis and Clark fame) son). Dorsey says that that name is also an Omaha name and translates it as Heavy Cloud (Ponca Hisada clan?). Does this name ring a bell with you at all? I haven't been able to figure it out through my Otoe sources yet. But today (of all days LOL) I got an email from a tribal member who has an Otoe-Ponca friend who was curious about their name. They didn't know if it was Otoe or Ponca but they gave "Iskąbade. It sounds Ponca to me and if you flip the b and d, you get the name I have above. But the "bade" reminds me of the Otoe "baje" (canoe/boat). Also, I reference Hamilton and Irvin's An Ioway Grammar quite a bit and transcribed it about 3 years ago. Right now I am almost finished transliterating it. It has been an incredible resource for me and it might be to you guys as well so if anyone wants either version (strict transcription or transliteration to our orthography), let me know. It is incredibly useful to search through since it is a nice, clean copy. I've also transcribed their other books (Elementary Book of the Ioway Language and Original Hymns In the Ioway Language (both 1843) and also am almost done transliterating the Elementary book as well. Those will be available soon. I've also transcribed all of Merrill's Otoe books and am currently transliterating his as well (his are MUCH tougher!). So if anyone wants copies of these for their own research on their respective Siouan language(s), let me know. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Thursday, September 4, 2014 1:10 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Washką in Otoe-Missouria Ø This is one of those ultra rare examples of an older Otoe source using "maði" rather than "manyi". What is the "maði" doing here? (FYI the suffix -nye means "they"). Could it mean they are "always" watching over their flock? I suppose. But to me it seems like the idea is what they are doing on this particular night which really has me thinking about your "being" or "existing" senses and that maybe they could be applied here. But can "doing" mean the same as "being"? Not sure. I'm going to keep this in the back of my mind...especially as it can perhaps apply to names (like my friend's) and see if anything "clicks" in my mind. I think one way to look at this is as a Siouan equivalent of the progressive aspect. What’s being signalled here is that the action was going on at the time that something else occurred. So if the shepherds were watching their flocks, that’s part of the background that the speaker is painting for you in preparation for the main event they are going to tell. In European languages, we generally have some simple verbal device for presenting the progressive. In English, we use some form of “be”, plus the action verb, plus “-ing”: the shepherds were watch-ing. But in at least some of the Siouan languages, one of about four basic verbs of position/motion is used after the main verb: ‘lie’, ‘sit’, ‘stand’, or ‘walk’. This allows Siouan speakers to express not only the progressive aspect, but also a special nuance of that aspect. This could be literally the position of the party doing it, or more abstractly, how general the action’s ongoingness is. In Omaha, at least, I believe that ‘sit’ generally means that the condition is a temporary and conditional sort of thing, while ‘walk’ is something habitual or characteristic. Thus, you might have several choices in signalling the progressive aspect. If the shepherds WALK-watch their flocks, they are walking about and making their rounds in their activity. If they STAND-watch their flocks, they are standing up, looking on in a state of dynamic tension. If they SIT-watch their flocks, they are watching while sitting down and relaxed. If they LIE-watch their flocks, then they are sacked out on the job. But in a more abstract way, if they WALK-watch their flocks, the activity is open-ended. The shepherds, habitually and characteristically, are always doing it. But if they SIT-watch their flocks, the activity is temporary and conditional. That would imply that the shepherds just happened to be watching them at the moment of the main event, but probably hadn’t been watching them long before, and probably wouldn’t be watching them much longer. It would be happenstance behavior, not their normal activity. In names, these position/motion modifiers wouldn’t exactly imply the progressive aspect as they do in full sentences, but the mode of the behavior would still be in force. So Xude-moNthiN, ‘Walks Gray’, would mean that the cat goes around characteristically manifesting grayness. Similarly, WashkaN-moNthiN would be the name for a person that goes around manifesting strong, vigorous activity. (In Omaha, at least, shkaN means ‘to move’. With the wa- prefix in front of it, wa-shkaN seems to mean the characteristic of being active, showing strength. So we would probably translate it as ‘strong’ or ‘active’. Think of someone who is hard-working and busy, constantly seeing things that need to be done and doing them, like a good leader.) Best, Rory -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at OMTRIBE.ORG Wed Sep 3 17:19:29 2014 From: sky at OMTRIBE.ORG (Campbell, Sky) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2014 12:19:29 -0500 Subject: Washk=?utf-8?Q?=C4=85_?=in Otoe-Missouria In-Reply-To: <000601cfbca2$aa6a70e0$ff3f52a0$@com> Message-ID: Finally got my computer up and running this morning! I've been going through Dorsey's names and came across this: Wa-ckan?ma-?nyi, Tciwere notation of the ?egiha Wackan man?in, Makes an Effort in Walking, or, Continues to Make an Effort. Sky Campbell Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2014 1:15 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Washk? in Otoe-Missouria Thanks for the replies! Sorry for the late reply. Been having a few computer issues on this end and I'd hoped to be able to do more effective digging before I responded. But my problems might not be fixed for another week (waiting on a part) so I thought I'd go ahead and respond anyway. The Walks Strong or Always Strong definitely fits with what I am thinking for that name. However I'd feel much better about that if I found more info on it. Perhaps Dorsey has a few more "washk?/iragr? washk?" terms attached to other terms in his vocabulary slips. Still, old translations of Great Walker or Great Marcher have me thinking that that is correct. However I still can't ignore the old translation of Fast Dancer which I can JUST see could be formed out of Washk? Manyi (wasi/washi (dance) + k?ntha (fast) + manyi (always)). While I am leaning heavily towards Always Strong (and other similar translations), there is the possibility that Fast Dancer could also be correct. And I'm not one to declare a "winner" in a situation like this. My determination is irrelevant. The term/name means what it means and so long as there is a possibility of another translation, I am loathe to say "Yep, this is what it means." I like to qualify things like that with "This is what it looks like it says, however it could also mean this..." That's a hard line to walk in a field that likes answers to this sort of thing LOL. But again, thanks for the replies and if anyone has any other information, I'd love to hear it. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Ardis Eschenberg Sent: Monday, August 11, 2014 1:52 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Washk? in Otoe-Missouria In addition to ?Do one?s best,? washkoN is also often translated as ?be strong? (for example, said to one who is grieving) and is used to connote strength, such as in ?WashkoN tonga,? meaning strong or muscular. So, could also mean ?Walks Strong? or ?Always Strong? for the name given. Ardis Eschenberg, Ph.D. Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs Windward Community College (808) 235-7443 ardise at hawaii.edu On Aug 11, 2014, at 7:51 AM, Catherine Rudin > wrote: Common in Omaha too. At one time it was the UmoNhoN Nation School's sports teams cheer; maybe still is. >>> "Mcbride, Justin" 08/11/14 11:01 AM >>> Just means 'do one's best' in Dhegiha, a far as I've ever seen. It's very common in Osage in particular; it used to be written on the back of all the Language Dept. t-shirts. On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 9:34 AM, Campbell, Sky > wrote: A few weeks ago there was a discussion about the Ioway name "Washk? Manyi" and the given translations such as Fast Dancer and Great Walker from historical documents. I also mentioned a Ponca friend of mine with the name Washk? Mathi which he translated as Stands Strong. So I've been really interested in the term "washk?" and if there was any Otoe equivalent. The closest lead I found was Dorsey giving the Jiwere equivalent of washk? as brixe in his Omaha/Ponca slips. But poking through Dorsey's material a while ago I found this term: nan-wa?-?e i-ra-?krin-wa-?shkan - to do his best to dodge or evade the blow, weapon, or pursuer Then I was talking with my assistant today who is pretty knowledgeable in Osage and he mentioned in passing that Osages use "washk?" to refer to doing their best. So I looked in Dorsey's material again and found this by itself: nan-wa?-?e - to dodge a blow or weapon; to evade the enemy, or pursuer So that leaves us with i-ra-?krin-wa-?shkan which Dorsey also has a separate slip for. Unfortunately he doesn't translate it here but he does give this phrase: ir?krinwashkan?wi h? Based on what I've seen so far, it looks to be a command to "do your best". But what is really interesting is Dorsey gives this afterward: (eq. to Dh. washkan i-g?) So now we have a direct comparison of the Otoe "iragr? washk?" and Dhegiha "washk?". Has anyone else seen something like this floating around their respective languages? I'm curious what the "iragr?" is doing here and why it is omitted for its Dhegiha equivalent. And now because of the idea of "best" it has me wondering if this term is related to "wexa" (best). Anyone have any thoughts? If this term does in fact refer to doing your best, then the name "Washk? Manyi" could perhaps roughly translate to "He Always Does His Best." Sky Campbell Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org ?? -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kathleendshea at GMAIL.COM Wed Sep 3 23:25:11 2014 From: kathleendshea at GMAIL.COM (Kathleen D. Shea) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2014 18:25:11 -0500 Subject: Washk=?utf-8?Q?=C4=85_?=in Otoe-Missouria In-Reply-To: <72663936A7BBD841B5FB12A49C95E436D2A6151E2A@Server6-EX.omtribe.net> Message-ID: Sky, I'm sorry to be replying so late. I'm more familiar with Ponca than Ioway-Otoe. I think that, in the case of your Ponca friend who has the name was^kaN maNthiN (I don't know how to access the special characters in e-mail that you're using, so I'm using a vowel followed by an uppercase N for a nasal vowel and a carrot for a hacek on the previous letter), maNthiN can't be taken literally but means something like 'being, existing.' A Ponca-speaking friend of mine, who prefers to remain anonymous, made friends with my brother's cat, Smoky, a couple of years ago and decided to give him a Ponca name, xude maNthiN, which he translated roughly as 'being gray,' 'going around gray,' or 'existing gray.' (By the way, Smoky Shea has his own Facebook page and announced his new name there.) I think that the English translation your friend gave you for his name, 'standing strong' probably captures the meaning fairly well, where 'standing' is also not meant to be understood in a literal sense. In Ponca, was^kaN can also mean 'muscle.' Kathy Shea Sent from my iPad > On Sep 3, 2014, at 12:19 PM, "Campbell, Sky" wrote: > > Finally got my computer up and running this morning! I've been going through Dorsey's names and came across this: > > Wa-ckan?ma-?nyi, Tciwere notation of the ?egiha Wackan man?in, Makes an Effort in Walking, or, Continues to Make an Effort. > > Sky Campbell > Language Director > Otoe-Missouria Tribe > (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 > sky at omtribe.org > > From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell > Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2014 1:15 PM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Re: Washk? in Otoe-Missouria > > Thanks for the replies! Sorry for the late reply. Been having a few computer issues on this end and I'd hoped to be able to do more effective digging before I responded. But my problems might not be fixed for another week (waiting on a part) so I thought I'd go ahead and respond anyway. > > The Walks Strong or Always Strong definitely fits with what I am thinking for that name. However I'd feel much better about that if I found more info on it. Perhaps Dorsey has a few more "washk?/iragr? washk?" terms attached to other terms in his vocabulary slips. Still, old translations of Great Walker or Great Marcher have me thinking that that is correct. However I still can't ignore the old translation of Fast Dancer which I can JUST see could be formed out of Washk? Manyi (wasi/washi (dance) + k?ntha (fast) + manyi (always)). While I am leaning heavily towards Always Strong (and other similar translations), there is the possibility that Fast Dancer could also be correct. And I'm not one to declare a "winner" in a situation like this. My determination is irrelevant. The term/name means what it means and so long as there is a possibility of another translation, I am loathe to say "Yep, this is what it means." I like to qualify things like that with "This is what it looks like it says, however it could also mean this..." That's a hard line to walk in a field that likes answers to this sort of thing LOL. > > But again, thanks for the replies and if anyone has any other information, I'd love to hear it. > > Sky > > From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Ardis Eschenberg > Sent: Monday, August 11, 2014 1:52 PM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Re: Washk? in Otoe-Missouria > > In addition to ?Do one?s best,? washkoN is also often translated as ?be strong? (for example, said to one who is grieving) and is used to connote strength, such as in ?WashkoN tonga,? meaning strong or muscular. > > So, could also mean ?Walks Strong? or ?Always Strong? for the name given. > > > Ardis Eschenberg, Ph.D. > Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs > Windward Community College > (808) 235-7443 > ardise at hawaii.edu > > > > > > On Aug 11, 2014, at 7:51 AM, Catherine Rudin wrote: > > > Common in Omaha too. At one time it was the UmoNhoN Nation School's sports teams cheer; maybe still is. > > >>> "Mcbride, Justin" 08/11/14 11:01 AM >>> > Just means 'do one's best' in Dhegiha, a far as I've ever seen. It's very common in Osage in particular; it used to be written on the back of all the Language Dept. t-shirts. > > > On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 9:34 AM, Campbell, Sky wrote: > A few weeks ago there was a discussion about the Ioway name "Washk? Manyi" and the given translations such as Fast Dancer and Great Walker from historical documents. I also mentioned a Ponca friend of mine with the name Washk? Mathi which he translated as Stands Strong. So I've been really interested in the term "washk?" and if there was any Otoe equivalent. The closest lead I found was Dorsey giving the Jiwere equivalent of washk? as brixe in his Omaha/Ponca slips. > > But poking through Dorsey's material a while ago I found this term: > > nan-wa?-?e i-ra-?krin-wa-?shkan - to do his best to dodge or evade the blow, weapon, or pursuer > > Then I was talking with my assistant today who is pretty knowledgeable in Osage and he mentioned in passing that Osages use "washk?" to refer to doing their best. So I looked in Dorsey's material again and found this by itself: > > nan-wa?-?e - to dodge a blow or weapon; to evade the enemy, or pursuer > > So that leaves us with i-ra-?krin-wa-?shkan which Dorsey also has a separate slip for. Unfortunately he doesn't translate it here but he does give this phrase: > > ir?krinwashkan?wi h? > > Based on what I've seen so far, it looks to be a command to "do your best". But what is really interesting is Dorsey gives this afterward: > > (eq. to Dh. washkan i-g?) > > So now we have a direct comparison of the Otoe "iragr? washk?" and Dhegiha "washk?". Has anyone else seen something like this floating around their respective languages? I'm curious what the "iragr?" is doing here and why it is omitted for its Dhegiha equivalent. And now because of the idea of "best" it has me wondering if this term is related to "wexa" (best). > > Anyone have any thoughts? If this term does in fact refer to doing your best, then the name "Washk? Manyi" could perhaps roughly translate to "He Always Does His Best." > > Sky Campbell > Language Director > Otoe-Missouria Tribe > (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 > sky at omtribe.org > > > ?? > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Thu Sep 4 01:13:32 2014 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM (Sky Campbell) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2014 20:13:32 -0500 Subject: Washk=?utf-8?Q?=C4=85_?=in Otoe-Missouria In-Reply-To: <2DD45129-5C30-4877-BCA5-EEC17EA1FD69@gmail.com> Message-ID: I like that! I don't think I've seen that exact sense for Otoe (if I have, I can't think of it off the top of my head) but it does sure seem to fit in some cases where walk, move, and always doesn't quite seem to fit (although that last one comes close). Actually, I just thought of a possible example from Rev. Moses Merrill's History of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ (1837) where he translates a decent chunk of the Bible. Here is what he has for Luke, Chapter 2, Verse 8: Wdnoce lketl wdhseka mlel swdra wdmenunei, hlha kerowa tlncewd wdnoce krlketl mlginei. The Bible verse is: And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night. What I am after is at the end. ...wdnoce grakida mlginei. Which in our orthography would be: ...wanusje grakida ma?inye. animals - watch-over-their-own - they-always??? This is one of those ultra rare examples of an older Otoe source using "ma?i" rather than "manyi". What is the "ma?i" doing here? (FYI the suffix -nye means "they"). Could it mean they are "always" watching over their flock? I suppose. But to me it seems like the idea is what they are doing on this particular night which really has me thinking about your "being" or "existing" senses and that maybe they could be applied here. But can "doing" mean the same as "being"? Not sure. I'm going to keep this in the back of my mind...especially as it can perhaps apply to names (like my friend's) and see if anything "clicks" in my mind. Otoe also uses "k?" for muscle. I've also found translations of it to be artery, vein, and sinew. I've also even found the term "ak?" to mean pulse LOL. Cool stuff :). But along this line, I've also heard from my wife's uncle (my wife is Ponca) that he had been told that the word Ponca might mean something like "head muscle" or something to that effect. I've never delved into what the translation of "Ponca" means but your mention of muscle reminded me of it. I also seem to remember him saying something along the lines of "sacred head" as well. This was several years ago though. Thanks again for this info! It gives me an entirely different angle to approach this term! Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Kathleen D. Shea Sent: Wednesday, September 3, 2014 6:25 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Washk? in Otoe-Missouria Sky, I'm sorry to be replying so late. I'm more familiar with Ponca than Ioway-Otoe. I think that, in the case of your Ponca friend who has the name was^kaN maNthiN (I don't know how to access the special characters in e-mail that you're using, so I'm using a vowel followed by an uppercase N for a nasal vowel and a carrot for a hacek on the previous letter), maNthiN can't be taken literally but means something like 'being, existing.' A Ponca-speaking friend of mine, who prefers to remain anonymous, made friends with my brother's cat, Smoky, a couple of years ago and decided to give him a Ponca name, xude maNthiN, which he translated roughly as 'being gray,' 'going around gray,' or 'existing gray.' (By the way, Smoky Shea has his own Facebook page and announced his new name there.) I think that the English translation your friend gave you for his name, 'standing strong' probably captures the meaning fairly well, where 'standing' is also not meant to be understood in a literal sense. In Ponca, was^kaN can also mean 'muscle.' Kathy Shea Sent from my iPad On Sep 3, 2014, at 12:19 PM, "Campbell, Sky" wrote: Finally got my computer up and running this morning! I've been going through Dorsey's names and came across this: Wa-ckan?ma-?nyi, Tciwere notation of the ?egiha Wackan man?in, Makes an Effort in Walking, or, Continues to Make an Effort. Sky Campbell Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2014 1:15 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Washk? in Otoe-Missouria Thanks for the replies! Sorry for the late reply. Been having a few computer issues on this end and I'd hoped to be able to do more effective digging before I responded. But my problems might not be fixed for another week (waiting on a part) so I thought I'd go ahead and respond anyway. The Walks Strong or Always Strong definitely fits with what I am thinking for that name. However I'd feel much better about that if I found more info on it. Perhaps Dorsey has a few more "washk?/iragr? washk?" terms attached to other terms in his vocabulary slips. Still, old translations of Great Walker or Great Marcher have me thinking that that is correct. However I still can't ignore the old translation of Fast Dancer which I can JUST see could be formed out of Washk? Manyi (wasi/washi (dance) + k?ntha (fast) + manyi (always)). While I am leaning heavily towards Always Strong (and other similar translations), there is the possibility that Fast Dancer could also be correct. And I'm not one to declare a "winner" in a situation like this. My determination is irrelevant. The term/name means what it means and so long as there is a possibility of another translation, I am loathe to say "Yep, this is what it means." I like to qualify things like that with "This is what it looks like it says, however it could also mean this..." That's a hard line to walk in a field that likes answers to this sort of thing LOL. But again, thanks for the replies and if anyone has any other information, I'd love to hear it. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Ardis Eschenberg Sent: Monday, August 11, 2014 1:52 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Washk? in Otoe-Missouria In addition to ?Do one?s best,? washkoN is also often translated as ?be strong? (for example, said to one who is grieving) and is used to connote strength, such as in ?WashkoN tonga,? meaning strong or muscular. So, could also mean ?Walks Strong? or ?Always Strong? for the name given. Ardis Eschenberg, Ph.D. Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs Windward Community College (808) 235-7443 ardise at hawaii.edu On Aug 11, 2014, at 7:51 AM, Catherine Rudin wrote: Common in Omaha too. At one time it was the UmoNhoN Nation School's sports teams cheer; maybe still is. >>> "Mcbride, Justin" 08/11/14 11:01 AM >>> Just means 'do one's best' in Dhegiha, a far as I've ever seen. It's very common in Osage in particular; it used to be written on the back of all the Language Dept. t-shirts. On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 9:34 AM, Campbell, Sky wrote: A few weeks ago there was a discussion about the Ioway name "Washk? Manyi" and the given translations such as Fast Dancer and Great Walker from historical documents. I also mentioned a Ponca friend of mine with the name Washk? Mathi which he translated as Stands Strong. So I've been really interested in the term "washk?" and if there was any Otoe equivalent. The closest lead I found was Dorsey giving the Jiwere equivalent of washk? as brixe in his Omaha/Ponca slips. But poking through Dorsey's material a while ago I found this term: nan-wa?-?e i-ra-?krin-wa-?shkan - to do his best to dodge or evade the blow, weapon, or pursuer Then I was talking with my assistant today who is pretty knowledgeable in Osage and he mentioned in passing that Osages use "washk?" to refer to doing their best. So I looked in Dorsey's material again and found this by itself: nan-wa?-?e - to dodge a blow or weapon; to evade the enemy, or pursuer So that leaves us with i-ra-?krin-wa-?shkan which Dorsey also has a separate slip for. Unfortunately he doesn't translate it here but he does give this phrase: ir?krinwashkan?wi h? Based on what I've seen so far, it looks to be a command to "do your best". But what is really interesting is Dorsey gives this afterward: (eq. to Dh. washkan i-g?) So now we have a direct comparison of the Otoe "iragr? washk?" and Dhegiha "washk?". Has anyone else seen something like this floating around their respective languages? I'm curious what the "iragr?" is doing here and why it is omitted for its Dhegiha equivalent. And now because of the idea of "best" it has me wondering if this term is related to "wexa" (best). Anyone have any thoughts? If this term does in fact refer to doing your best, then the name "Washk? Manyi" could perhaps roughly translate to "He Always Does His Best." Sky Campbell Language Director Otoe-Missouria Tribe (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 sky at omtribe.org ?? -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu . listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu . listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu . listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kathleendshea at GMAIL.COM Thu Sep 4 02:38:23 2014 From: kathleendshea at GMAIL.COM (Kathleen D. Shea) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2014 21:38:23 -0500 Subject: Washk=?utf-8?Q?=C4=85_?=in Otoe-Missouria In-Reply-To: <000f01cfc7dd$72590450$570b0cf0$@com> Message-ID: Yes, in Ponca, kkaNaN also means vein, sinew, tree root--anything stringy or fibrous. For instance, maNaNdee kkaNaN means 'bowstring' (also a boy's baby name). However, I think a word more closely related to was^kaNaN 'muscle; be strong' might be s^kaNaNs^kaNaN (reduplicated) 'moving,' as in iNde aabaaxuu s^kaNaNs^kaNaN 'moving pictures (i.e., movies).' (I'm sorry it's so cumbersome to write the long vowels in e-mail as double. I don't know how to write a raised dot either in e-mail, indicating length. By the way, my source tells me that the second syllable of the word for 'muscle; be strong' is long--in his words, "cut off" because of vowel length being realized as falling pitch, creaky voice, or a slight glottal stop.) Kathy Sent from my iPad > On Sep 3, 2014, at 8:13 PM, Sky Campbell wrote: > > I like that! I don't think I've seen that exact sense for Otoe (if I have, I can't think of it off the top of my head) but it does sure seem to fit in some cases where walk, move, and always doesn't quite seem to fit (although that last one comes close). Actually, I just thought of a possible example from Rev. Moses Merrill's History of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ (1837) where he translates a decent chunk of the Bible. Here is what he has for Luke, Chapter 2, Verse 8: > > Wdnoce lketl wdhseka mlel swdra wdmenunei, hlha kerowa tlncewd wdnoce krlketl mlginei. > > The Bible verse is: > > And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night. > > What I am after is at the end. > > ...wdnoce grakida mlginei. > > Which in our orthography would be: > > ...wanusje grakida ma?inye. > > animals - watch-over-their-own - they-always??? > > This is one of those ultra rare examples of an older Otoe source using "ma?i" rather than "manyi". What is the "ma?i" doing here? (FYI the suffix -nye means "they"). Could it mean they are "always" watching over their flock? I suppose. But to me it seems like the idea is what they are doing on this particular night which really has me thinking about your "being" or "existing" senses and that maybe they could be applied here. But can "doing" mean the same as "being"? Not sure. I'm going to keep this in the back of my mind...especially as it can perhaps apply to names (like my friend's) and see if anything "clicks" in my mind. > > Otoe also uses "k?" for muscle. I've also found translations of it to be artery, vein, and sinew. I've also even found the term "ak?" to mean pulse LOL. Cool stuff :). But along this line, I've also heard from my wife's uncle (my wife is Ponca) that he had been told that the word Ponca might mean something like "head muscle" or something to that effect. I've never delved into what the translation of "Ponca" means but your mention of muscle reminded me of it. I also seem to remember him saying something along the lines of "sacred head" as well. This was several years ago though. > > Thanks again for this info! It gives me an entirely different angle to approach this term! > > Sky > > > > From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Kathleen D. Shea > Sent: Wednesday, September 3, 2014 6:25 PM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Re: Washk? in Otoe-Missouria > > Sky, > > I'm sorry to be replying so late. I'm more familiar with Ponca than Ioway-Otoe. I think that, in the case of your Ponca friend who has the name was^kaN maNthiN (I don't know how to access the special characters in e-mail that you're using, so I'm using a vowel followed by an uppercase N for a nasal vowel and a carrot for a hacek on the previous letter), maNthiN can't be taken literally but means something like 'being, existing.' A Ponca-speaking friend of mine, who prefers to remain anonymous, made friends with my brother's cat, Smoky, a couple of years ago and decided to give him a Ponca name, xude maNthiN, which he translated roughly as 'being gray,' 'going around gray,' or 'existing gray.' (By the way, Smoky Shea has his own Facebook page and announced his new name there.) I think that the English translation your friend gave you for his name, 'standing strong' probably captures the meaning fairly well, where 'standing' is also not meant to be understood in a literal sense. In Ponca, was^kaN can also mean 'muscle.' > > Kathy Shea > > Sent from my iPad > > On Sep 3, 2014, at 12:19 PM, "Campbell, Sky" wrote: > > Finally got my computer up and running this morning! I've been going through Dorsey's names and came across this: > > Wa-ckan?ma-?nyi, Tciwere notation of the ?egiha Wackan man?in, Makes an Effort in Walking, or, Continues to Make an Effort. > > Sky Campbell > Language Director > Otoe-Missouria Tribe > (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 > sky at omtribe.org > > From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell > Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2014 1:15 PM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Re: Washk? in Otoe-Missouria > > Thanks for the replies! Sorry for the late reply. Been having a few computer issues on this end and I'd hoped to be able to do more effective digging before I responded. But my problems might not be fixed for another week (waiting on a part) so I thought I'd go ahead and respond anyway. > > The Walks Strong or Always Strong definitely fits with what I am thinking for that name. However I'd feel much better about that if I found more info on it. Perhaps Dorsey has a few more "washk?/iragr? washk?" terms attached to other terms in his vocabulary slips. Still, old translations of Great Walker or Great Marcher have me thinking that that is correct. However I still can't ignore the old translation of Fast Dancer which I can JUST see could be formed out of Washk? Manyi (wasi/washi (dance) + k?ntha (fast) + manyi (always)). While I am leaning heavily towards Always Strong (and other similar translations), there is the possibility that Fast Dancer could also be correct. And I'm not one to declare a "winner" in a situation like this. My determination is irrelevant. The term/name means what it means and so long as there is a possibility of another translation, I am loathe to say "Yep, this is what it means." I like to qualify things like that with "This is what it looks like it says, however it could also mean this..." That's a hard line to walk in a field that likes answers to this sort of thing LOL. > > But again, thanks for the replies and if anyone has any other information, I'd love to hear it. > > Sky > > From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Ardis Eschenberg > Sent: Monday, August 11, 2014 1:52 PM > To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu > Subject: Re: Washk? in Otoe-Missouria > > In addition to ?Do one?s best,? washkoN is also often translated as ?be strong? (for example, said to one who is grieving) and is used to connote strength, such as in ?WashkoN tonga,? meaning strong or muscular. > > So, could also mean ?Walks Strong? or ?Always Strong? for the name given. > > > Ardis Eschenberg, Ph.D. > Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs > Windward Community College > (808) 235-7443 > ardise at hawaii.edu > > > > > > On Aug 11, 2014, at 7:51 AM, Catherine Rudin wrote: > > > Common in Omaha too. At one time it was the UmoNhoN Nation School's sports teams cheer; maybe still is. > > >>> "Mcbride, Justin" 08/11/14 11:01 AM >>> > Just means 'do one's best' in Dhegiha, a far as I've ever seen. It's very common in Osage in particular; it used to be written on the back of all the Language Dept. t-shirts. > > > On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 9:34 AM, Campbell, Sky wrote: > A few weeks ago there was a discussion about the Ioway name "Washk? Manyi" and the given translations such as Fast Dancer and Great Walker from historical documents. I also mentioned a Ponca friend of mine with the name Washk? Mathi which he translated as Stands Strong. So I've been really interested in the term "washk?" and if there was any Otoe equivalent. The closest lead I found was Dorsey giving the Jiwere equivalent of washk? as brixe in his Omaha/Ponca slips. > > But poking through Dorsey's material a while ago I found this term: > > nan-wa?-?e i-ra-?krin-wa-?shkan - to do his best to dodge or evade the blow, weapon, or pursuer > > Then I was talking with my assistant today who is pretty knowledgeable in Osage and he mentioned in passing that Osages use "washk?" to refer to doing their best. So I looked in Dorsey's material again and found this by itself: > > nan-wa?-?e - to dodge a blow or weapon; to evade the enemy, or pursuer > > So that leaves us with i-ra-?krin-wa-?shkan which Dorsey also has a separate slip for. Unfortunately he doesn't translate it here but he does give this phrase: > > ir?krinwashkan?wi h? > > Based on what I've seen so far, it looks to be a command to "do your best". But what is really interesting is Dorsey gives this afterward: > > (eq. to Dh. washkan i-g?) > > So now we have a direct comparison of the Otoe "iragr? washk?" and Dhegiha "washk?". Has anyone else seen something like this floating around their respective languages? I'm curious what the "iragr?" is doing here and why it is omitted for its Dhegiha equivalent. And now because of the idea of "best" it has me wondering if this term is related to "wexa" (best). > > Anyone have any thoughts? If this term does in fact refer to doing your best, then the name "Washk? Manyi" could perhaps roughly translate to "He Always Does His Best." > > Sky Campbell > Language Director > Otoe-Missouria Tribe > (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 > sky at omtribe.org > > > ?? > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. > > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. > -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Thu Sep 4 18:09:31 2014 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2014 18:09:31 +0000 Subject: Washk=?utf-8?Q?=C4=85_?=in Otoe-Missouria In-Reply-To: <000f01cfc7dd$72590450$570b0cf0$@com> Message-ID: ? This is one of those ultra rare examples of an older Otoe source using "ma?i" rather than "manyi". What is the "ma?i" doing here? (FYI the suffix -nye means "they"). Could it mean they are "always" watching over their flock? I suppose. But to me it seems like the idea is what they are doing on this particular night which really has me thinking about your "being" or "existing" senses and that maybe they could be applied here. But can "doing" mean the same as "being"? Not sure. I'm going to keep this in the back of my mind...especially as it can perhaps apply to names (like my friend's) and see if anything "clicks" in my mind. I think one way to look at this is as a Siouan equivalent of the progressive aspect. What?s being signalled here is that the action was going on at the time that something else occurred. So if the shepherds were watching their flocks, that?s part of the background that the speaker is painting for you in preparation for the main event they are going to tell. In European languages, we generally have some simple verbal device for presenting the progressive. In English, we use some form of ?be?, plus the action verb, plus ?-ing?: the shepherds were watch-ing. But in at least some of the Siouan languages, one of about four basic verbs of position/motion is used after the main verb: ?lie?, ?sit?, ?stand?, or ?walk?. This allows Siouan speakers to express not only the progressive aspect, but also a special nuance of that aspect. This could be literally the position of the party doing it, or more abstractly, how general the action?s ongoingness is. In Omaha, at least, I believe that ?sit? generally means that the condition is a temporary and conditional sort of thing, while ?walk? is something habitual or characteristic. Thus, you might have several choices in signalling the progressive aspect. If the shepherds WALK-watch their flocks, they are walking about and making their rounds in their activity. If they STAND-watch their flocks, they are standing up, looking on in a state of dynamic tension. If they SIT-watch their flocks, they are watching while sitting down and relaxed. If they LIE-watch their flocks, then they are sacked out on the job. But in a more abstract way, if they WALK-watch their flocks, the activity is open-ended. The shepherds, habitually and characteristically, are always doing it. But if they SIT-watch their flocks, the activity is temporary and conditional. That would imply that the shepherds just happened to be watching them at the moment of the main event, but probably hadn?t been watching them long before, and probably wouldn?t be watching them much longer. It would be happenstance behavior, not their normal activity. In names, these position/motion modifiers wouldn?t exactly imply the progressive aspect as they do in full sentences, but the mode of the behavior would still be in force. So Xude-moNthiN, ?Walks Gray?, would mean that the cat goes around characteristically manifesting grayness. Similarly, WashkaN-moNthiN would be the name for a person that goes around manifesting strong, vigorous activity. (In Omaha, at least, shkaN means ?to move?. With the wa- prefix in front of it, wa-shkaN seems to mean the characteristic of being active, showing strength. So we would probably translate it as ?strong? or ?active?. Think of someone who is hard-working and busy, constantly seeing things that need to be done and doing them, like a good leader.) Best, Rory -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM Fri Sep 5 01:21:28 2014 From: sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM (Sky Campbell) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2014 20:21:28 -0500 Subject: Washk=?utf-8?Q?=C4=85_?=in Otoe-Missouria In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks for the explanation :). It has helped me form the concept in my mind. I know that Hamilton and Irvin wrote about this in their An Ioway Grammar (1848). They wrote When continued or habitual action, or position, is expressed, the verb is compounded with me-na-k? (min?) he sits, na-y?-k? (nay?) he stands, or ma-ny?-k? (manyi) he walks. The first two refer to place or position. The last, when forming a part of the verb, always implies continuation or perpetuity; as, Un-ce-me-na-k?. (?nj? min? ke) He keeps striking me. (i.e. while he is sitting) Jka-c?-na-y?-k?. (Skaje nay? ke) He continues playing. (i.e. while he is standing) U-ma-ny?-k?. ('? manyi ke) He always does so. e-ha-ha-ha-ma-ny?-sk? (ihax'? hamanyisge) as long as I live H?-kra-he-ha-ma-ny?-k? (Hegrahi hamanyi ke). I always love. That "as long as I live" example that they give really goes with your explanation so I'm definitely going to delve more into this. I've seen it before but perhaps the time wasn't right for me to see more of its meaning. Just needed a nudge I guess :). Your mention of "shkaN" meaning "to move" has me curious about another name. I found in Rev. Moses Merrill's diary the name "Iskutupe" (I think that is how he spelled it...doing this from memory LOL) is mentioned (which I'm guessing would be spelled in our current orthography as Isk?tabi or Ishk?tabi. Dorsey also lists this name among his Otoe names but only mentions that it is an Omaha name and doesn't translate it. This makes sense since Merrill says his father was Sh?nkabi (Big Horse's (of Lewis and Clark fame) son). Dorsey says that that name is also an Omaha name and translates it as Heavy Cloud (Ponca Hisada clan?). Does this name ring a bell with you at all? I haven't been able to figure it out through my Otoe sources yet. But today (of all days LOL) I got an email from a tribal member who has an Otoe-Ponca friend who was curious about their name. They didn't know if it was Otoe or Ponca but they gave "Isk?bade. It sounds Ponca to me and if you flip the b and d, you get the name I have above. But the "bade" reminds me of the Otoe "baje" (canoe/boat). Also, I reference Hamilton and Irvin's An Ioway Grammar quite a bit and transcribed it about 3 years ago. Right now I am almost finished transliterating it. It has been an incredible resource for me and it might be to you guys as well so if anyone wants either version (strict transcription or transliteration to our orthography), let me know. It is incredibly useful to search through since it is a nice, clean copy. I've also transcribed their other books (Elementary Book of the Ioway Language and Original Hymns In the Ioway Language (both 1843) and also am almost done transliterating the Elementary book as well. Those will be available soon. I've also transcribed all of Merrill's Otoe books and am currently transliterating his as well (his are MUCH tougher!). So if anyone wants copies of these for their own research on their respective Siouan language(s), let me know. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Thursday, September 4, 2014 1:10 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Washk? in Otoe-Missouria ? This is one of those ultra rare examples of an older Otoe source using "ma?i" rather than "manyi". What is the "ma?i" doing here? (FYI the suffix -nye means "they"). Could it mean they are "always" watching over their flock? I suppose. But to me it seems like the idea is what they are doing on this particular night which really has me thinking about your "being" or "existing" senses and that maybe they could be applied here. But can "doing" mean the same as "being"? Not sure. I'm going to keep this in the back of my mind...especially as it can perhaps apply to names (like my friend's) and see if anything "clicks" in my mind. I think one way to look at this is as a Siouan equivalent of the progressive aspect. What?s being signalled here is that the action was going on at the time that something else occurred. So if the shepherds were watching their flocks, that?s part of the background that the speaker is painting for you in preparation for the main event they are going to tell. In European languages, we generally have some simple verbal device for presenting the progressive. In English, we use some form of ?be?, plus the action verb, plus ?-ing?: the shepherds were watch-ing. But in at least some of the Siouan languages, one of about four basic verbs of position/motion is used after the main verb: ?lie?, ?sit?, ?stand?, or ?walk?. This allows Siouan speakers to express not only the progressive aspect, but also a special nuance of that aspect. This could be literally the position of the party doing it, or more abstractly, how general the action?s ongoingness is. In Omaha, at least, I believe that ?sit? generally means that the condition is a temporary and conditional sort of thing, while ?walk? is something habitual or characteristic. Thus, you might have several choices in signalling the progressive aspect. If the shepherds WALK-watch their flocks, they are walking about and making their rounds in their activity. If they STAND-watch their flocks, they are standing up, looking on in a state of dynamic tension. If they SIT-watch their flocks, they are watching while sitting down and relaxed. If they LIE-watch their flocks, then they are sacked out on the job. But in a more abstract way, if they WALK-watch their flocks, the activity is open-ended. The shepherds, habitually and characteristically, are always doing it. But if they SIT-watch their flocks, the activity is temporary and conditional. That would imply that the shepherds just happened to be watching them at the moment of the main event, but probably hadn?t been watching them long before, and probably wouldn?t be watching them much longer. It would be happenstance behavior, not their normal activity. In names, these position/motion modifiers wouldn?t exactly imply the progressive aspect as they do in full sentences, but the mode of the behavior would still be in force. So Xude-moNthiN, ?Walks Gray?, would mean that the cat goes around characteristically manifesting grayness. Similarly, WashkaN-moNthiN would be the name for a person that goes around manifesting strong, vigorous activity. (In Omaha, at least, shkaN means ?to move?. With the wa- prefix in front of it, wa-shkaN seems to mean the characteristic of being active, showing strength. So we would probably translate it as ?strong? or ?active?. Think of someone who is hard-working and busy, constantly seeing things that need to be done and doing them, like a good leader.) Best, Rory -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlarson1 at UNL.EDU Fri Sep 5 14:22:53 2014 From: rlarson1 at UNL.EDU (Rory Larson) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2014 14:22:53 +0000 Subject: Washk=?utf-8?Q?=C4=85_?=in Otoe-Missouria In-Reply-To: <004a01cfc8a7$b7f7d5c0$27e78140$@com> Message-ID: Sky, I?m glad the explanation helped. Tangentially, let me correct one thing I said: ? In European languages, we generally have some simple verbal device for presenting the progressive. I did a little checking with Google and Wikipedia after I sent out the message, and it turns out that the progressive as a verbal form is not so common in European languages as I was assuming. Notably, it seems it is not present in French, German, or the continental Scandinavian languages. Apparently it is present mainly along the western fringes of Europe: Spanish and Portuguese, English, Icelandic, all of the Celtic languages, and perhaps marginally at least in Dutch and Italian. An intriguing suggestion is that it might be substrate feature of Celtic. I wonder if anyone with European expertise has any thoughts to add to this? For Omaha and Ponca names, we usually consult the lists given in Volume I of The Omaha Tribe, by Alice C. Fletcher and Francis La Flesche. These are broken out by clan or subclan and by gender, and are scattered through a good chunk of the book, so it takes a while to find anything if you don?t know the clan and gender. I haven?t checked the book thoroughly, but for the Ponca Hisada clan there are some likely matches to the names you mention. First, let?s confirm the spelling of Merrill?s ?Iskutupe?. I haven?t seen, and don?t recognize, anything quite like that, but there is a common name ?I?shta-duba?, translated as ?Four-Eyes?, which shows up in Omaha lists as well as the Ponca Hisada clan. If Big Horse?s name is actually ?Shu?ka-bi?, then the ?shu?ka? part of that should be equivalent to the Dakotan word for ?dog?, ?wolf? or ?horse?. Presumably Lewis and Clark understood it that way, and that would be how he got the name ?Big Horse? in English. But what shows up in the Fletcher & La Flesche lists doesn?t have nasalization of the [u]. Instead, they have ?Sh?kabi?, translated as ?Bunch of clouds?. There is also the name ?Shuk?mo?thi??, translated as ?Walking in groups?. Under the Omaha Honga clan, they have the same name listed as ?Sh?kamo?thi??, where they specifically translate ?Sh?ka? as meaning ?groups?, but say that the reference is uncertain. This is a word to try to check with our speakers, but I would guess that it refers to clouds forming in clusters. I don?t recognize ?Isk?bade?, but I can say that ?bade? won?t work as ?boat? in Omaha or Ponca. The word there is mo?d?, with accent on the second syllable to distinguish it from m??de, ?bow?. Kaw would be a better bet, where it is baj?, but that?s about the same as in Otoe except for the accent. The Comparative Siouan Dictionary team believed that the ?boat? word was probably a loan word from Algonquian, but at least for MVS it could probably be reconstructed as *Wate, where [W] represents ?funny w?, a sound that became /p/ or /b/ in Osage, Kaw, and apparently IOM, but /m/ in Omaha and Ponca. I would love to have copies of your Ioway and Otoe transcriptions. That would be very useful! Best, Rory From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2014 8:21 PM To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU Subject: Re: Washk? in Otoe-Missouria Thanks for the explanation :). It has helped me form the concept in my mind. I know that Hamilton and Irvin wrote about this in their An Ioway Grammar (1848). They wrote When continued or habitual action, or position, is expressed, the verb is compounded with me-na-k? (min?) he sits, na-y?-k? (nay?) he stands, or ma-ny?-k? (manyi) he walks. The first two refer to place or position. The last, when forming a part of the verb, always implies continuation or perpetuity; as, Un-ce-me-na-k?. (?nj? min? ke) He keeps striking me. (i.e. while he is sitting) Jka-c?-na-y?-k?. (Skaje nay? ke) He continues playing. (i.e. while he is standing) U-ma-ny?-k?. ('? manyi ke) He always does so. e-ha-ha-ha-ma-ny?-sk? (ihax'? hamanyisge) as long as I live H?-kra-he-ha-ma-ny?-k? (Hegrahi hamanyi ke). I always love. That "as long as I live" example that they give really goes with your explanation so I'm definitely going to delve more into this. I've seen it before but perhaps the time wasn't right for me to see more of its meaning. Just needed a nudge I guess :). Your mention of "shkaN" meaning "to move" has me curious about another name. I found in Rev. Moses Merrill's diary the name "Iskutupe" (I think that is how he spelled it...doing this from memory LOL) is mentioned (which I'm guessing would be spelled in our current orthography as Isk?tabi or Ishk?tabi. Dorsey also lists this name among his Otoe names but only mentions that it is an Omaha name and doesn't translate it. This makes sense since Merrill says his father was Sh?nkabi (Big Horse's (of Lewis and Clark fame) son). Dorsey says that that name is also an Omaha name and translates it as Heavy Cloud (Ponca Hisada clan?). Does this name ring a bell with you at all? I haven't been able to figure it out through my Otoe sources yet. But today (of all days LOL) I got an email from a tribal member who has an Otoe-Ponca friend who was curious about their name. They didn't know if it was Otoe or Ponca but they gave "Isk?bade. It sounds Ponca to me and if you flip the b and d, you get the name I have above. But the "bade" reminds me of the Otoe "baje" (canoe/boat). Also, I reference Hamilton and Irvin's An Ioway Grammar quite a bit and transcribed it about 3 years ago. Right now I am almost finished transliterating it. It has been an incredible resource for me and it might be to you guys as well so if anyone wants either version (strict transcription or transliteration to our orthography), let me know. It is incredibly useful to search through since it is a nice, clean copy. I've also transcribed their other books (Elementary Book of the Ioway Language and Original Hymns In the Ioway Language (both 1843) and also am almost done transliterating the Elementary book as well. Those will be available soon. I've also transcribed all of Merrill's Otoe books and am currently transliterating his as well (his are MUCH tougher!). So if anyone wants copies of these for their own research on their respective Siouan language(s), let me know. Sky From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson Sent: Thursday, September 4, 2014 1:10 PM To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu Subject: Re: Washk? in Otoe-Missouria ? This is one of those ultra rare examples of an older Otoe source using "ma?i" rather than "manyi". What is the "ma?i" doing here? (FYI the suffix -nye means "they"). Could it mean they are "always" watching over their flock? I suppose. But to me it seems like the idea is what they are doing on this particular night which really has me thinking about your "being" or "existing" senses and that maybe they could be applied here. But can "doing" mean the same as "being"? Not sure. I'm going to keep this in the back of my mind...especially as it can perhaps apply to names (like my friend's) and see if anything "clicks" in my mind. I think one way to look at this is as a Siouan equivalent of the progressive aspect. What?s being signalled here is that the action was going on at the time that something else occurred. So if the shepherds were watching their flocks, that?s part of the background that the speaker is painting for you in preparation for the main event they are going to tell. In European languages, we generally have some simple verbal device for presenting the progressive. In English, we use some form of ?be?, plus the action verb, plus ?-ing?: the shepherds were watch-ing. But in at least some of the Siouan languages, one of about four basic verbs of position/motion is used after the main verb: ?lie?, ?sit?, ?stand?, or ?walk?. This allows Siouan speakers to express not only the progressive aspect, but also a special nuance of that aspect. This could be literally the position of the party doing it, or more abstractly, how general the action?s ongoingness is. In Omaha, at least, I believe that ?sit? generally means that the condition is a temporary and conditional sort of thing, while ?walk? is something habitual or characteristic. Thus, you might have several choices in signalling the progressive aspect. If the shepherds WALK-watch their flocks, they are walking about and making their rounds in their activity. If they STAND-watch their flocks, they are standing up, looking on in a state of dynamic tension. If they SIT-watch their flocks, they are watching while sitting down and relaxed. If they LIE-watch their flocks, then they are sacked out on the job. But in a more abstract way, if they WALK-watch their flocks, the activity is open-ended. The shepherds, habitually and characteristically, are always doing it. But if they SIT-watch their flocks, the activity is temporary and conditional. That would imply that the shepherds just happened to be watching them at the moment of the main event, but probably hadn?t been watching them long before, and probably wouldn?t be watching them much longer. It would be happenstance behavior, not their normal activity. In names, these position/motion modifiers wouldn?t exactly imply the progressive aspect as they do in full sentences, but the mode of the behavior would still be in force. So Xude-moNthiN, ?Walks Gray?, would mean that the cat goes around characteristically manifesting grayness. Similarly, WashkaN-moNthiN would be the name for a person that goes around manifesting strong, vigorous activity. (In Omaha, at least, shkaN means ?to move?. With the wa- prefix in front of it, wa-shkaN seems to mean the characteristic of being active, showing strength. So we would probably translate it as ?strong? or ?active?. Think of someone who is hard-working and busy, constantly seeing things that need to be done and doing them, like a good leader.) Best, Rory -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -- Manage your subscription at http://listserv.unl.edu. listserv.unl.edu lists do not accept incoming email from Yahoo.com, AOL.com or Dropbox.com due to thier DMARC policies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: