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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I hope my last post didn't imply that linguists
shouldn't learn other languages in depth. I merely wanted to point out
that it is not a necessity for a linguist to learn to speak every language
that he/she works with. If the opportunity is there to learn the language,
then I think most linguists will attempt to do so. I've sat down with many
grammars of languages that are no longer spoken or that I don't have the
opportunity to hear spoken and (being a linguist) gotten insight from
them. As I mentioned and Bob reiterated, there are all sorts of linguists
out there working in many different areas of linguistics. Do what you do
best and do it well!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>John Kyle<BR><A href="mailto:jkyle@ku.edu">jkyle@ku.edu</A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>**************************************<BR>"We need an energy bill that
encourages consumption."<BR> — Pres.
Bush, Trenton, N.J., Sept. 23, 2002</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=dvklinguist2003@yahoo.com
href="mailto:dvklinguist2003@yahoo.com">David Kaufman</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=siouan@lists.colorado.edu
href="mailto:siouan@lists.colorado.edu">siouan@lists.colorado.edu</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, October 26, 2003 11:27
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Volkswagen acquires the
Hochank language</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Thanks for your input, John. I guess as an avid language learner
myself, I would really want to be able to speak the language(s) to some degree
that I work on. Maybe that means I'll just work on fewer languages, but
hopefully those will be more in depth!</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Dave<BR><BR><B><I>John Kyle <<A
href="mailto:jkyle@ku.edu">jkyle@ku.edu</A>></I></B> wrote:</DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>David Kaufman asked:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>Does the "typical linguist" normally study a language (on paper
presumably) but never attempt to speak it?</DIV>
<DIV>If 'typical' means the majority of linguists then I would have to say
yes, most linguists don't need to learn a language in order to study
it. What I've found over my many years in linguistics is that there
are many types of linguists studying a wide range of topics and
languages. Even in the realm of the field linguist, it is not
necessary to learn the language (the hours of pouring over tapes and writing
and rewriting though can give one a good working knowledge of the
language...but does this mean we 'know' the language). For
many linguists, our work is to 'distill' the order out of
language. When my introductory linguistic students asked
me if I had to learn all the languages I used for examples, I told
them that as linguists we can 'cheat'. To learn and know a language as
a speaker requires the memorization of thousands of lexical items
and idioms and then putting them together in the accepted
manner. ! ; As linguists we often don't have to do the
memorization. Our joy seems to come from finding those regular
patterns that the lexical items fit into. </DIV>
<DIV>But it all depends on what type of linguistics you are doing. It
would be a real hindrance to linguistics if we had to learn all the
languages we deal with.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>John Kyle<BR><A href="mailto:jkyle@ku.edu">jkyle@ku.edu</A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>**************************************<BR>"We need an energy bill that
encourages consumption."<BR> —
Pres. Bush, Trenton, N.J., Sept. 23, 2002</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=dvklinguist2003@yahoo.com
href="mailto:dvklinguist2003@yahoo.com">David Kaufman</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=siouan@lists.colorado.edu
href="mailto:siouan@lists.colorado.edu">siouan@lists.colorado.edu</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, October 25, 2003
10:39 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Volkswagen acquires the
Hochank language</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Kathleen,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I want to respond to your email because both you and Pat raised an
interesting point:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>--linguists would do well to inspire by example and at least aspire
to speak the language they are studying.--</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>As I said before, I'm new to all this (the world of linguistics and
academia), and at the risk of sounding naive, I intend to learn from this
experience. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> I find this odd, especially for a spoken language.
(I could understand it more in the case of Latin or Ancient Greek, for
example, where there are no more "native" speakers and just a basic
understanding of written genders and cases is all one really needs to
"know" the language.) But if a linguist is doing field work and
having interaction with native speakers, how could they not "speak" the
language to some degree? Especially since an understanding of
accent, pitch, or tone may be crucial, one would have to hear the spoken
language at some point, and one should be able to communicate in the
language (albeit possibly not altogether correctly!) at some level.
</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I guess I would equate "studying" a language with learning to "speak"
it. If I'm helping to document a language and taking part in its
revitalization efforts, I would naturally want to learn to "speak" it with
the native speakers I come into contact with, if for no other reason than
to make sure I've got it right before writing about it or committing
anything to paper. Plus, again, by learning to speak the language
and communicating in it to some degree, I would be gaining better
understanding and insight on the culture and people who speak it
natively. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>But, it's sounding like this may not be standard practice among most
linguists? </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Dave</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><EM>Kathleen Shea <kdshea@ku.edu></EM></STRONG>
wrote:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">I
think that we all have our built-in biases and that learning to
function<BR>within another culture can often be an uncomfortable
process, even though<BR>it's ultimately worthwhile and rewarding. Often
we don't learn without<BR>making mistakes and stepping on someone's
toes, and it seems that growth<BR>doesn't occur without some struggle
and overcoming obstacles. I don't know<BR>if Pat is Hocank or has ever
tried to work within a community on language<BR>maintenance, but it can
be a humbling experience. Often there are many<BR>seemingly more
immediate problems to be overcome, hindered in their solution<BR>by many
political and economic limitations. Every community is different,<BR>and
a "one-size-fits-all" approach doesn't work. Sure, it would be great
if<BR>languages could be passed down as they traditionally have been,
orally, from<BR>parent to child, but what do you do if! ! the speakers
are all<BR>great-grandparents of not-very-good health, even if a
preschool exists?<BR>What do you do if a federally funded program that
helps parents with young<BR>children get their GED's (i.e., Even Start)
won't let the parents or<BR>children learn their ancestral language as
part of the program? And so<BR>on.... A grassroots effort is definitely
needed, with people in the<BR>community aware enough of the need to be
behind it, and it takes more than<BR>just one person--if that's what the
community wants. The logistics can be<BR>daunting. I don't think any of
us academic "experts" know what works best<BR>when it comes to passing
on a language, other than the tried-and-true<BR>traditional way, but I
would think that the more approaches used the better.<BR>I do agree with
Pat, though, that linguists would do well to inspire by<BR>example and
at least aspire to speak the language they are studying. (I<BR>believe
it was Durbin Feeling at a sovereignty conference in Tu! ! lsa
several<BR>years ago who first encouraged me to do this.)<BR><BR>Kathy
Shea<BR><BR>----- Original Message -----<BR>From: "warr0120"
<WARR0120@UMN.EDU><BR>To: <SIOUAN@LISTS.COLORADO.EDU>;
<DAKOTA-NET@MAIL.SOCSCI.UMN.EDU>;<BR><OJIBWE-NET@MAIL.SOCSCI.UMN.EDU><BR>Sent:
Saturday, October 25, 2003 5:52 PM<BR>Subject: Re: Volkswagen acquires
the Hochank language<BR><BR><BR>> Well, Henning, I wish YOU had been
the one to inform people in the first<BR>> place about the project
and a Hocank person and scholar's perspective on<BR>> it. Thank you
for addressing some of the issues that were not addressed in<BR>>
Johannes' email. Seeing the project from a Hocank perspective is
exactly<BR>> what I find most important, and almost always missing
from linguists' and<BR>> anthros' work who claim authorship or
directorship and leave no space for<BR>> the voices of the community
being studied to come through enedited, as far<BR>> as how they view
the project. (except see! ! Young Bear and Theisz 1994,<BR>> Standing
in the light a Lakota way of seeing, with an introduction
written<BR>> by the primary informant.)<BR>><BR>> My immediate
concern is the extreme emphasis on documentation, which to be<BR>>
done well and usefully does require expertise and much attention
to<BR>detail.<BR>> But documentation can be a distraction, one of
those activities that can<BR>> let you feel busy and productive while
the real problems continue<BR>> unhindered, and can even exacerbate
the problems of identity as reliance<BR>on<BR>> experts from outside
the community becomes more acute.<BR>><BR>> I know the powerful
roles that documentation can play for self-empowerment<BR>> and
language revitalization in particular. But I wish people's first<BR>>
initiative when big sums of money came around was NOT to
manufacture<BR>> objects: dictionaries, grammars, "children's" books,
videotapes, or<BR>> interactive cdroms, that make you fe! ! el proud,
but are static. It would<BR>seem<BR>> much more important to spend
every penny possible getting all the fluent<BR>> speakers together
with children in the community so the language can be<BR>> passed on
in the most efficient and natural way possible. And probably the<BR>>
only really lasting way of language transmission for a whole culture.
I<BR>> hope the Hocank nation is successful in its current use of
natural<BR>language<BR>> learning methods, but I will NOT rest
assured. Every step toward<BR>> strengthening natural language and
culture transmission is an amazing and<BR>> important experience. But
it will never be enough. The tide against the<BR>> language and
culture is so very strong. (By the way I'm offering these<BR>>
thought in general, not just as response to you, Henning - you
clearly<BR>> emphasized much of this in your own
email.)<BR>><BR>> I see the training of new generations of
teachers as essential, people<BR>with<BR>&! gt; voracious scholarly
appetites (I hope you're hungry Henning, and from the<BR>> emails you
send to the Siouan languages list, I think you fit
my<BR>stereotype<BR>> of a healthy native scholar) and acccess to
great materials, who can<BR>create<BR>> new materials: but all so
that ADULTS who need to learn the language can<BR>> learn. Kids don't
need dictionaries or picture books. They need fluent<BR>> adult
speakers who care for them and spend extended time with them,
giving<BR>> them encouragement, love, and a positive identity in the
language. You<BR>> can't get that from materials, not matter how
interactive they are.<BR>><BR>> I don't intend to criticize the
Hocank nation's choices of whom to work<BR>> with. I mean to arouse
some discussion as to individual motivations and<BR>> hopes. People
always discuss their Grand Projects in objectified terms (at<BR>>
least in writing, I'm sure it's sometimes different wh! en you do get
to<BR>meet<BR>&! gt; people in person) and never tell what their
feelings are on the issue.<BR>That<BR>> may scare off the academic in
many of you, but I see a healthy<BR>relationship<BR>> as one in which
feelings are expressed openly and intellectualization is<BR>>
minimized.<BR>><BR>> When motives and hopes aren't discused, I
fear the continuation of the<BR>> colonization and genocide project.
No one is doing it intentionally, but<BR>if<BR>> the sum of many
well-funded projects continues to shift focus away from<BR>the<BR>>
real activities of language empowerment (fluent speakers spending lots
of<BR>> caring time with younger people, most especially), I fear
that people with<BR>> amazing skills and inspiration like you,
Henning, will spend mountains of<BR>> effort on endeavors with very
low leverage, as far as getting the language<BR>> to the next
generation, and insuring the language as a source of<BR>> life-giving
identity ! for everyone (not just the fe! w kids who excel in<BR>>
language classes). At the very least when someone promotes a project,
I<BR>> wish they would say WHY they're doing it, what their feelings
about the<BR>> situation and propsed project are. Motivation, to me,
is always more<BR>> important than credentials, because motivation
seems a greater determinant<BR>> of good work than initials after
your name. Though it seems the longer<BR>your<BR>> CV, the less
people feel they should explain themselves. But that is<BR>>
definitely my stereotype of academics (though not totally
unfounded).<BR>><BR>> I envision using all resources to get people
who are fluent in the<BR>language<BR>> and culture together with
young people in a positive environment where<BR>> healthy identities
can be nurtured in the language. It is those people who<BR>> learn
the natural way that will grow up and produce the great
literature<BR>> appropriate to a healthy literate language. It's
great when a few<B! R>> individuals create strong indentities in
their traditional cultures, but a<BR>> few people commited to
acquiring and documenting the language, even<BR>> supported by a
whole army of (non-speaking) linguists isn't going to tip<BR>> the
balances against the forces of hundreds of years of ever more
refined<BR>> and invisible genocide. (see<BR>>
http://www.preventgenocide.org/law/convention/drafts/ for the
original<BR>> United Nations definition of genocide, before the big
nations who<BR>regularly<BR>> practice it trimmed the convention down
a lot, and see Churchill 1997, A<BR>> little matter of genocide,
Chapter 7 "The United States and the Genocide<BR>> Convention"
p.363-398, for an enlightnening discussion of the<BR>>
matter...actually no, you should just read the whole
book.)<BR>><BR>> When it comes down to it, I see myself and all
other academics, as agents<BR>> of the dominant culture. (see C!
hurchill 1997 p.93-94, "The specter of<BR>! > Hannibal Lecter", for
discussion of some unintended (at least consciously)<BR>>
consequences of academic work) Whether or not we want to admit it,
and<BR>it's<BR>> really better if we DO admit it, we are possbily the
ones who will<BR>finalize<BR>> the genocide (e.g., by focusing
everyone's attention away from what would<BR>> really make the
difference, like dealing with the social problems that<BR>lead<BR>>
to negative identity and hence language loss), or else we finalize
the<BR>> acculturation of indigenous people into the dominant culture
(e.g., by<BR>> convincing people of the necessity of being liguists
and converting the<BR>> language to a corpus of bastardized
english-dependent texts; when IS<BR>> somebody going to write a real
native language dicitonary? an english<BR>> dictionary doesn't
explain everything in Hocank, so why do native language<BR>>
dictionaries convert everything to english?). ! So when intiative (even
my<BR>> own) ! comes from outside a native community and works its
way into the<BR>> community, I fear for what we are all not
seeing.<BR>><BR>> At least the Hocank nation gets to archive the
material at home, and they<BR>> already do have strong language
efforts underway. Now why didn't Johannes<BR>> mention that? Sorry if
I've attacked individuals too strongly (or whole<BR>> nations). But
criticism is a good thing, I think. It's all the talk about<BR>>
etymolgies and semantics and dictionaries (which I do enjoy) while I
know<BR>> there's little kids who could be learning the language who
are being<BR>> forgotten.<BR>><BR>> If only at the heart of
linguistics was the commitment to personally<BR>> acquire and
transmit the language(s) you study... But why do academics<BR>> RALLY
do their work? (see Hull 1988, Science as a process, for the
best<BR>> psychosocial analysis of academia I've ever seen...then
you'll see where<BR>my<BR>> stereotypes come fro! m, personified by
real people I know/am.)<BR>><BR>><BR>> I'll stop talking
now,<BR>> Pat Warren<BR>><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
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