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<TITLE>Re: paduka identity</TITLE>
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I can assure everybody here that 'Patoka' absolutely did <B>not</B> mean 'slave' in <BR>
Miami-Illinois.<BR>
<BR>
Morever, the 'Patoka' were <B>not</B> a Dhegiha group -- as Mark says here, the <BR>
term generally indicated the Comanche, a Uto-Aztecan (specifically Numic) <BR>
group closely related to the Shoshone. Look in the Handbook of North <BR>
American Indians, volume 13, pps. 903 & 939. According to that source, it <BR>
was originally used for the Plains Apache, and was transferred to the <BR>
Comanches later on, when the Comanches displaced the Plains Apache on the <BR>
high plains.<BR>
<BR>
The Miami name for the Comanche is <I>paatoohka</I>, the Shawnee name for them is <BR>
<I>paatohka, </I>and the Fox name for them is <I>paatoohka(aha). </I>This term has no <BR>
etymology in Algonquian. Algonquian probably got this name from Siouan. It <BR>
is in fact found in several Siouan languages -- John Koontz has looked at <BR>
this term in the past, and can give you a handful of Dhegiha cognates and <BR>
etymologies for the term, for those of you who don't have access to the <BR>
discussion of the term in HNAI 13.<BR>
<BR>
David<BR>
<BR>
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<FONT SIZE="2">----------<BR>
From: "Mark-Awakuni Swetland" <mawakuni-swetland2@unl.edu><BR>
To: "Siouan List" <siouan@lists.colorado.edu><BR>
Subject: Fw: paduka identity<BR>
Date: Thu, Sep 29, 2005, 7:37 am<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE="2">Aloha All,<BR>
Perhaps someone can assist this fellow in his inquiry about the Patoka/Paduca, please! My response was limited to the Fletcher and La Flesche source.<BR>
Mahalo!<BR>
Mark Awakuni-Swetland<BR>
<BR>
----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: Barry Haglan <<FONT COLOR="#0000FF"><U>mailto:BarryHaglan@msn.com</U></FONT>> <BR>
To: Mark-Awakuni Swetland <<FONT COLOR="#0000FF"><U>mailto:mawakuni-swetland2@unl.edu</U></FONT>> <BR>
Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:40 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: paduka identity<BR>
<BR>
mark, I pestered old John White about the paduca thing, and he said that when he was going through stuff on the Miami tribe, he kept running into the term Patoka. There's a river in Indiana named the Patoka River, in the old Miami-Wea-Piankashaw stomping grounds. He pretty much insisted on the meaning as slave by the Miamis, and said he thought the whole William Clark thing of naming the city of Paduca was complete B.S. I have the George Hyde article on Paduca identity, but the first page is missing, which would be the part before the migration across the Mississippi. Maybe we'll never know for sure, but I think it could be the stuff of a juicy manga comic or a screenplay.<BR>
</FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE="2">----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: Mark-Awakuni Swetland <<FONT COLOR="#0000FF"><U>mailto:mawakuni-swetland2@unl.edu</U></FONT>> <BR>
To: Barry Haglan <<FONT COLOR="#0000FF"><U>mailto:BarryHaglan@msn.com</U></FONT>> <BR>
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 12:03 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: paduka identity<BR>
<BR>
Barry,<BR>
the Paduka are usually glossed as the contemporary Comache. The Comanche are a relatively newly formed group of Shoshoni bands emerging from the Great Basin onto the Southern Great Plains. It is my understanding that they are classed linguistically as Uto-Aztecan, not Dhegiha/Siouan<BR>
<BR>
This does not seem to match the information and references you are citing. I cannot suggest an alternative persective to the Mississippi valley appearance or the "slave" aspect.<BR>
<BR>
In Fletcher and La Flesche "The Omaha Tribe" 1911:49, 79-80, 88 the Padouca are noted as follows: The Ponca reportedly encountered the Padouca on their buffalo hunts near the Rocky Mountains. The Ponca and Padouca battled until a Ponca killed a Padouca warrior, following which the Padouca sued for peace.<BR>
<BR>
Omaha were reported as knowing the Padouca in their western-most territory, and knowing of a Padouca village on the Dismal River.<BR>
<BR>
Mark Awakuni-Swetland<BR>
</FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE="2">----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: Barry Haglan <<FONT COLOR="#0000FF"><U>mailto:BarryHaglan@msn.com</U></FONT>> <BR>
To: <FONT COLOR="#0000FF"><U>mawakuni-swetland2@unl.edu</U></FONT> <<FONT COLOR="#0000FF"><U>mailto:mawakuni-swetland2@unl.edu</U></FONT>> <BR>
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 11:35 AM<BR>
Subject: paduka identity<BR>
<BR>
dr. a-s, my friend John White, a student of the Illinois-speaking tribes, told me that the Paduka were a Dhegiha group that didn't cross the Mississippi until circa 1710. He said Paduka meant "slave" in Illinois-Miami, and both the Chickasaw and Illini raided them for fresh genetics. Have you ever heard of anyone calling themselves Paduka? The only thing I've seen is an old paper by George Hyde that leaves out a lot. Sounds like a good title for a Tarantino thriller...<I>SEARCH for the LOST PADUKAS</I>!<BR>
<BR>
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