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<p><tt>John,</tt><br>
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<tt>Thanks for the explanation of Goldsmith's segmental theory. That supplements what I was able to get from Wikipedia after our exchange previously, and is very helpful. Although I sort of follow the broad idea, I think I'm still missing an explanation of the specific symbols used.</tt><br>
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<tt>> So, to get back to the actual point I was trying to make:<br>
><br>
> Actually, what's missing here is a non-N (an O?) following the N and<br>
> linking to the V.</tt><br>
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<tt>I had considered using something like that in the scheme I made up. I decided that it was easier to see the nasalization if I just left the non-nasal part of the tier blank.</tt><br>
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<tt>> In essence, I'm suggesting that all words get an<br>
> automatic initial added N that only comes home to roost on r and w.</tt><br>
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<tt>Do you mean just in proto-Siouan, or universally?</tt><br>
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<tt>> If<br>
> the word has an N attached to the following vowel "organically" then the<br>
> effect is that r and w become n and m. If the first vowel is oral then<br>
> the orality and nasality engage in a struggle for the soul of the r or w<br>
> and settle on a compromise that sounds like nd or mb. Not "n-dah" and<br>
> "m-bah" to parody the syllabic nasals of Swahili, but "raised n"-d and<br>
> "raised m"-b - a much more subtle affect akin to speaking with a cold. The<br>
> initial b of "bandaid" reduced to "mbadaid."<br>
><br>
> In intervocalic positions there is no stray N of initial nasalization, and<br>
> you get just plain r or w.<br>
</tt><br>
<tt>This cold-speak idea is fascinating, but I'm not sure that's actually nasalization you're describing here. The point of nasalization is that the sound goes out your nose, while the point of having a cold is to clog up the nasal passage and prevent that from happening. I think what you're actually touching on here is, first, that it is possible for vocalization to occur while a full stop is in place, and second, that that is not the normal way we make voiced stops. Try closing your mouth, pinching your nose, and then vocalizing. You can actually do it for up to a second or so before the air pressure above your vocal cords builds up enough to counteract what your diaphragm can produce from below. If you let it into your mouth, your cheeks puff up; if you let it into your nasal passage, the root of your nose expands; and if you keep it out of both areas, your throat swells. But you can do it. And it sounds weird.</tt><br>
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<tt>I think the subtle effect you describe for "bandaid" probably applies to the interior nd, but is not obligatory for the leading b, unless something nasal precedes it. When you hit a nasal consonant plus stop while suffering from a clogged nasal passage, you try to vocalize for the preceding nasal consonant, which is full oral closure, and now also full nasal closure, thanks to the clog. This produces the same weird sound derived experimentally above. It's a muffled, interior vocalization sound, which may well sound rather like a nasal, because a true nasal also muffles a sound by running it through a complicated set of interior channels. It may also be produced partly in the same place, insofar as it gets partway into the nasal cavity before it is stopped.</tt><br>
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<tt>This also means that I was wrong in supposing that voiced stop consonants are voiced all the way through. If I hold my hand on my throat and say DA-DA-DA-DA very slowly, I do not feel vocal vibration while the stop is in place. If I try forcing vocalization through it, I get the cold-speak sound you describe. The difference between a voiced and a voiceless stop seems not to be that the stop itself is voiced in the former, but that the release click is. Thus:</tt><br>
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<tt> Nasal <br>
Oral TTTT*aaaa<br>
Laryngeal VVVV</tt><tt><br>
</tt><br>
<tt>is /ta/, while</tt><br>
<br>
<tt> Nasal <br>
Oral TTTT*aaaa<br>
Laryngeal VVVVV<br>
</tt><br>
<tt>is /da/. Normal "bandaid" is</tt><br>
<br>
<tt> Nasal NNNNN<br>
Oral PPPP*aaaaTTTTTTTT*eeeeTTTT*<br>
Laryngeal VVVVVVVVV VVVVV VV<br>
</tt><br>
<tt>, while cold-speak "bandaid" is</tt><br>
<br>
<tt> Nasal <br>
Oral PPPP*aaaaTTTTTTTT*eeeeTTTT*<br>
Laryngeal VVVVVVVVV VVVVV VV<br>
</tt><br>
<tt>, retaining alveolar closure with vocalization, but losing the nasal escape.</tt><br>
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<tt>(Legend. Nasal: N - nasal passage open; blank - nasal passage closed.</tt><br>
<tt> Oral: P - full labial closure; T - full alveolar closure; * - release click of a stop; a/e - the vowels.</tt><br>
<tt> Laryngeal: V - vocal cords vibrating; blank - vocal cords not vibrating. )</tt><br>
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<tt>> I'm just<br>
> looking for ways to explain what we see. I assume Proto-(MV)Siouan was a<br>
> real language with a plausible, real phonology. I don't want to mistake<br>
> PMV for one of the current languages or their phonologies, even if I<br>
> appeal to those for cognate sets or as instances of plausible phonologies<br>
> and plausible rules.<br>
</tt><br>
<tt>I fully agree.</tt><br>
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<tt>Rory</tt><br>
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