<div class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-style: italic">Here's my two cents on </SPAN><I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">ki</I><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-style: italic">-<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>'to become by itself', examples first, in random order:<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-style: italic"><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"> <o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></div> <div class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>ki-ska 'to turn white'</FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>ki-sake<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>'to get hard, stiff'</FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in
0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>ki-suta<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>'to get hard'</FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>ki-wichas^a<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>'to have become a man, to have completed growing up'</FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>ki-wiNyaN<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>'to have become a woman'</FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>ki-thamahecha<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>'to get skinny'</FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>ki-haNska<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>'to get tall'</FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>ki-ksapa<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>'he got smart'</FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>ki-luzahaN 'to get fast'</FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>ki-bleza<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>'to become conscious'</FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>ki-phaNs^phaNz^ela<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>'to get soft'</FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>ki-ni 'to come back to life'</FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>ki-'okhate<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>'to become warm inside, like when turning up the heat'</FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"> <o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></div>
<div class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>ki-was^tecaka ye!<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>'behave yourself!'</FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>pheta ki ki-sni 'the fire went dead/out (by itself)'</FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>thaspaNzi ki ki-phaNs^phaNz^ela 'the orange has ripened'</FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>wakhalapi ki ki-sni<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>'the coffee is cold/has gotten cold'</FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"> <o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>There is a second usage of <I>ki</I>- with meteorological expressions, which,
however, is rendered by the slightly different translation 'to become/happen suddenly, unexpectedly'. Is this still "the same" <I>ki</I>-? I'd say at least this usage is close enough to the above <I>ki</I>- to postulate a historical connection.</FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"> <o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>ki-mag^az^u 'all of a sudden it rains, unexpectedly' (classed as an "old word" by informant)</FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>ki-mas^te 'the sun came out all of a sudden'</FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>ki-wahiNhe<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>'all of a sudden it is snowing'</FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3><FONT
face="Times New Roman"> <o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>The lexical productivity of <I>ki</I>- appears to be restricted. Statives are most easily compatible with <I>ki</I>-, but by far not all of them are. For instance, the following combinations are ungrammatical, among many others:</FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>*ki-khate 'to get hot'</FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>*ki-'owothaNla<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>'to get straight'</FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"> <o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>It could be that <I>ki</I>- is actually completive, so that 'to have become by
itself' is a better translation. Since I inadvertently kicked this file out of the "active" materials that needed double-checking with native speakers years ago, I couldn't pursue this issue further. I hope that didn't happen with too many of my grammar files!</FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>As for Jimm's suggestion of categorizing <I>ki</I>- as an instrumental prefix, that's exactly what I had in mind while working on this element. At least, this type of <I>ki</I>- seems to go nicely with semantically similar prefixes such as <I>na</I>- 'to become by itself' and <I>ka</I>- 'to do/become by itself' (yes, there IS an intransitive <I>ka</I>-). Alternatively, <I>ki</I>- could be treated as an aspect marker. I've also considered connections with benefactive/possessive <EM>ki</EM>-, but that didn't turn out to be particularly illuminating.</FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"> <o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>Regina</FONT></div><BR><BR><B><I>""Alfred W. Tüting"" <ti@fa-kuan.muc.de></I></B> wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"><FONT class=Apple-style-span face=GentiumAlt size=5><SPAN class=Apple-style-span style="FONT-SIZE: 18px">Thanks a lot, Bruce,</SPAN></FONT> <DIV><FONT class=Apple-style-span face=GentiumAlt size=5><SPAN class=Apple-style-span style="FONT-SIZE: 18px">only now I know that I should've remembered _kizuzeca_, at least. Now, I found still another one: kimakxa (B.-M. "turn into soil, as anything rotten in the ground"). </SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT class=Apple-style-span face=GentiumAlt size=5><SPAN class=Apple-style-span style="FONT-SIZE: 18px"><BR class=webkit-block-placeholder></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT
class=Apple-style-span face=GentiumAlt size=5><SPAN class=Apple-style-span style="FONT-SIZE: 18px">Alfred</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT class=Apple-style-span face=GentiumAlt size=5><SPAN class=Apple-style-span style="FONT-SIZE: 18px"><BR class=webkit-block-placeholder></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT class=Apple-style-span face=GentiumAlt size=5><SPAN class=Apple-style-span style="FONT-SIZE: 18px">P.S. I wonder if kimimila (butterfly) has smth to do with this issue (mila??)</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><BR class=webkit-block-placeholder></DIV> <DIV><BR> <DIV> <DIV>Am 10.12.2007 um 13:47 schrieb shokooh Ingham:</DIV><BR class=Apple-interchange-newline> <BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">I know kimathathanka 'turn into a buffalo', kizuzeca 'turn into a snake', kiwitko 'go mad', kiwanice 'turn into nothing' and kiwe 'turn into blood'; a very useful prefix. You can also use ic'icag^a/mic'icag^e 'make oneself into', but I think that is more conscious, whereas the first is
non-intentional perhaps.<BR>Bruce<BR><BR><B><I>""Alfred W. Tüting"" <<A href="mailto:ti@fa-kuan.muc.de">ti@fa-kuan.muc.de</A>></I></B> wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid"><SPAN class=Apple-style-span style="FONT-SIZE: 16px; FONT-FAMILY: Times">> Fascinating examples from Clive. The use of a- to mean 'more than' is an interesting one in Lakota. It seems to be not totally productive and is a bit illusive, but one sees examples of it. I have a feeling that it is more frequent in Dakota, but can't think on what basis I have this feeling. Does anyone else have this impression?<BR>Bruce < </SPAN> <DIV><FONT class=Apple-style-span face=Times size=4><SPAN class=Apple-style-span style="FONT-SIZE: 16px"><BR></SPAN></FONT> <DIV><FONT class=Apple-style-span face=Times size=4><SPAN class=Apple-style-span style="FONT-SIZE: 16px"><BR
class=webkit-block-placeholder></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=Apple-style-span style="FONT-SIZE: 16px; FONT-FAMILY: Times"><FONT class=Apple-style-span face=GentiumAlt size=5><SPAN class=Apple-style-span style="FONT-SIZE: 18px">It's my impression that with regard to productiveness, it's maybe comparable to the use of ki- (in the sense of "become", "turn to") e.g. kiaguyapi (to turn into bread). Does anyone happen to know of other renderings like "turn into stone" (petrify) or such??</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><FONT class=Apple-style-span face=GentiumAlt size=5><SPAN class=Apple-style-span style="FONT-SIZE: 18px"><BR class=webkit-block-placeholder></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=Apple-style-span style="FONT-SIZE: 16px; FONT-FAMILY: Times"><FONT class=Apple-style-span face=GentiumAlt size=5><SPAN class=Apple-style-span style="FONT-SIZE: 18px">BTW, this a- in the sense of "more than" seems to express a "general idea" found also in other languages. E.g.
think of Hungarian adessive -nál/-nél (at) also used as comparative (e.g. ennél jobb - better than this).</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><FONT class=Apple-style-span face=GentiumAlt size=5><SPAN class=Apple-style-span style="FONT-SIZE: 18px"><BR class=webkit-block-placeholder></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=Apple-style-span style="FONT-SIZE: 16px; FONT-FAMILY: Times"><FONT class=Apple-style-span face=GentiumAlt size=5><SPAN class=Apple-style-span style="FONT-SIZE: 18px">Alfred</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=Apple-style-span style="FONT-SIZE: 16px; FONT-FAMILY: Times"><FONT class=Apple-style-span face=GentiumAlt size=5><SPAN class=Apple-style-span style="FONT-SIZE: 18px"><BR></SPAN></FONT><BR><B><I>""Alfred W. Tüting"" <<A href="mailto:ti@fa-kuan.muc.de">ti@fa-kuan.muc.de</A>></I></B> wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid"><SPAN class=Apple-style-span
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 20px; FONT-FAMILY: 'Marker Felt'"><SPAN class=Apple-style-span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 13px; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; FONT-FAMILY: Courier; WHITE-SPACE: pre">> "LochiNpi kiN he iyes^ akhiphapi kta thawat'elyapi na iyoks^ica uNpi <BR>> kiN he e athawat'elyapi s^ni kiN hecha."e<BR><BR>> [=As for themselves, they preferred facing hunger,<BR>to living in <BR>> sadness (i.e. loneliness) - such were their (feelings) or 'such was <BR>> their situation'.]<BR>> (lit. : they felt willing to face the prospect of hunger, and they <BR>> did not feel a greater willingness to be living in desolation - <BR>> that's the way it was).</SPAN> <DIV><SPAN class=Apple-style-span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 13px; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; FONT-FAMILY: Courier; WHITE-SPACE: pre"><BR class=webkit-block-placeholder></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=Apple-style-span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 13px; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; FONT-FAMILY:
Courier; WHITE-SPACE: pre"><BR class=webkit-block-placeholder></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=Apple-style-span style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; WHITE-SPACE: pre"><FONT class=Apple-style-span face=GentiumAlt><FONT class=Apple-style-span size=5><SPAN class=Apple-style-span style="FONT-SIZE: 18px">(Loċinpi kin he iyeṡ aḱip'a pi kta ṫawat'elya pi na<BR>iyokiṡica un pi kin he e</SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=Apple-style-span style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; WHITE-SPACE: pre"><FONT class=Apple-style-span face=GentiumAlt><FONT class=Apple-style-span size=5><SPAN class=Apple-style-span style="FONT-SIZE: 18px">aṫawat'elya pi ṡni kin héċa.)</SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=Apple-style-span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 13px; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; FONT-FAMILY: Courier; WHITE-SPACE: pre"><BR class=webkit-block-placeholder></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=Apple-style-span style="FONT-SIZE: 18px; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; FONT-FAMILY:
GentiumAlt; WHITE-SPACE: pre">(...)</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><FONT class=Apple-style-span face=GentiumAlt size=5><SPAN class=Apple-style-span style="FONT-SIZE: 18px; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; WHITE-SPACE: pre"><BR class=webkit-block-placeholder></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT class=Apple-style-span face=GentiumAlt size=5><SPAN class=Apple-style-span style="FONT-SIZE: 18px; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; WHITE-SPACE: pre">BTW, I like your reading of a-ṫawat'elyA <- a-waṡte (better than), it's very</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT class=Apple-style-span face=GentiumAlt size=5><SPAN class=Apple-style-span style="FONT-SIZE: 18px; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; WHITE-SPACE: pre">convincing.</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=Apple-style-span style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; WHITE-SPACE: pre"><FONT class=Apple-style-span face=GentiumAlt size=5><SPAN class=Apple-style-span style="FONT-SIZE: 18px"><BR class=webkit-block-placeholder></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=Apple-style-span
style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; WHITE-SPACE: pre"><FONT class=Apple-style-span face=GentiumAlt size=5><SPAN class=Apple-style-span style="FONT-SIZE: 18px">Alfred</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE></SPAN></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><BR class=webkit-block-placeholder></DIV> <HR SIZE=1> Sent from <A href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mailuk/taglines/isp/control/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51949/*http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/mail/winter07.html">Yahoo!</A> - a smarter inbox.</BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><p>
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