<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="GentiumAlt" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">This is very interesting and convincing, indeed, thanks. As an old-fashioned linguistic purist myself, I'm afraid to state that this appears to be the way languages generally develop through (modern) use.</span></font></div><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="GentiumAlt" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">May I grasp the opportunity here, Jan, asking your authentic view on the use of "ki-is^tamnihaNpi (hiNgle)" in your fine translation of Emma LaRocque's poem "Where did she go?"?</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="GentiumAlt" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="GentiumAlt" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">"(...) Ite na ho kin hena / tokahe anpao kinhan / wakalyapi mitawa kin / <font class="Apple-style-span" color="#FF0612">ki-istamnihanpi</font> hingle (...)"</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="GentiumAlt" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">"(...) Her voices, her faces / that <font class="Apple-style-span" color="#FF0612">turn</font> my coffee / <font class="Apple-style-span" color="#FF0612">into</font> a cup of <font class="Apple-style-span" color="#FF0612">tears</font> / with the first wisp of day? (...)"</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="GentiumAlt" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="GentiumAlt"><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000">Ite na ho kin hena<br>Ṫokahe ánpaó kinhan<br>waḱalyapi miṫawa kin<br>ki-iṡtamnihanpi hingle.</font></span></font></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="GentiumAlt" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="GentiumAlt" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">I'm already pondering over this special use of ki- since quite some time, you know: it caught my eye that, as it seems to me, you thought it to be necessary(?)/advisible(?) to use a hyphen and (even) the auxiliary verb hinglA together with the main verb. I'd be most grateful for any feedback.</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="GentiumAlt" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="GentiumAlt" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">Best regards</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="GentiumAlt" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="GentiumAlt" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">Alfred</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="GentiumAlt" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="GentiumAlt" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></span></font></div><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><br><div><div>Am 11.12.2007 um 09:20 schrieb Jan Ullrich:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"> <div> <div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0cm; "><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-bidi-font-style: italic; mso-ansi-language: EN-US">I think it should be noted here that the meaning of the prefix ki- is not "to become" but "to return to the original state". Notice kini 'to come back to life', not 'to become alive'. The prefix is used with this meaning throughout the text corpus. Most of the words with ki- given in Buechel's dictionary originate in his translation of the Bible History texts (for instance ki-sagye – 'to turn into a cane' is used in the story about Moses) and are not attested by contemporary speakers. <o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0cm; "><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-bidi-font-style: italic; mso-ansi-language: EN-US">It is true that some younger speakers today use ki- with the meaning 'to become'</span><span lang="LV" style="mso-bidi-font-style: italic; mso-ansi-language: LV">, but its use is semantically restricted, occurs for instance in </span><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-bidi-font-style: italic; mso-ansi-language: EN-US">kiwichas^</span><span lang="LV" style="mso-bidi-font-style: italic; mso-ansi-language: LV">a – 'to become a man'. Deloria (in her grammar) defines </span><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-bidi-font-style: italic; mso-ansi-language: EN-US">kiwichas^</span><span lang="LV" style="mso-bidi-font-style: italic; mso-ansi-language: LV">a as 'to become a man again (like a human who in a tale had appeared in animal shape)' and kiwiNyaN as 'to become a (respectable) woman again'<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0cm; "><span lang="LV" style="mso-bidi-font-style: italic; mso-ansi-language: LV">In my experience and fieldword data, the prefix is not productive. So I am a bit surprised by some of the words in Regina's list. If the words come from eliciting rather than texts, I would recoment caution and cross checking.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0cm; "><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-bidi-font-style: italic; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0cm; "><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">> ki-ska 'to turn white'<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0cm; "><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0cm; "><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">Deloria and a couple of my native informants give "to fade (to return to an original white color)" See also Bushotter's sentence: … oowa uN owapi tkha hechunpi chan echakchala kiska s'a – 'when they painted (those things) with colors they often faded'<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0cm; "><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0cm; "><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">> ki-suta<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>'to get hard'<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0cm; "><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0cm; "><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">'to become hard again' as in mazasu s^</span><span lang="LV" style="mso-ansi-language: LV">loyiN na kisuta<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>'The bullets he melted became hard again'</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0cm; "><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0cm; "><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">> ki-bleza<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>'to become conscious'<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0cm; "><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0cm; "><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">'to become clear-minded or conscious again, come to one's senses', this is often used for 'to sober up'<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0cm; "><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0cm; "><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">> ki-was^tecaka ye!<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>'behave yourself!'<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0cm; "><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0cm; "><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">This is a dative. It means "Be nice to him/her." Very common phrase.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0cm; "><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0cm; "><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">> ki-thamahecha<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>'to get skinny'<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0cm; "><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">> ki-haNska<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>'to get tall'<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0cm; "><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">> ki-ksapa<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>'he got smart'<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0cm; "><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">> ki-luzahaN 'to get fast'<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0cm; "><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">> ki-'okhate<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>'to become warm inside, like when turning up the heat'<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0cm; "><o:p> </o:p></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0cm; "><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">These are all somewhat surprising to me.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0cm; "><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0cm; "><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">Notice also, that for instance kini 'to come back to life' is an active verb (1s wakini), but kibleza 'to conscious again' is treated as a stative verb (1s: makibleze). This makes me wonder whether some of the ki- words actually originate in dative, just as akisni – 'to recover from smth, as a sickness (1s: amakisni)' or iyokiphi 'to be pleased with' 1s: iyomakiphi). <o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0cm; "><st1:city><st1:place><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">Regina</span></st1:place></st1:city><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">, what does your data say on conjugating the verbs in your list?<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0cm; "><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0cm; "><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">Jan</span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"></font> </p></div></div></blockquote></div><br></body></html>