<div class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>(quoting myself)</FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>Jan said that the ki- in my previous example ki-was^tecakA should be analyzed as a dative, rather than as ki- 'to become'. I responded that both options might be possible. I'm still defending that claim, but meantime I found rich documentation of dative ki- in ki-was^tecakA in my own data, with both types of datives. For instance:</FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>waki-was^tecake 'I was good to him'</FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"> <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3>Regina</FONT></div><BR><BR><B><I>REGINA PUSTET <pustetrm@yahoo.com></I></B> wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"> <DIV><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-bidi-font-style: italic; mso-ansi-language: EN-US">(quoting JAN) </SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-bidi-font-style: italic; mso-ansi-language: EN-US">>I think it should be noted here that the meaning of the prefix ki- is not "to become" but "to >return to the original state". </SPAN></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was aware of this meaning which is listed in Boas/Deloria when I started working on ki-, but for some funny reason, my speakers didn't provide any data to support the hypothesis that 'to become again' is the sole meaning of ki- (which wouldn't work to well with stuff like David's ki-was>icu etc.). It might be an additional reading of the basic meaning 'to become'. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN lang=LV
style="mso-bidi-font-style: italic; mso-ansi-language: LV">>In my experience and fieldword data, the prefix is not productive. </SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN lang=LV style="mso-bidi-font-style: italic; mso-ansi-language: LV">This coincides with my findings.</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN lang=LV style="mso-bidi-font-style: italic; mso-ansi-language: LV"></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN lang=LV style="mso-bidi-font-style: italic; mso-ansi-language: LV">>So I am a bit surprised by some of the words in Regina's list. </SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN lang=LV style="mso-bidi-font-style: italic; mso-ansi-language: LV">ki- might be productive enough to have produced words you haven't encountered. As for my own list, I would never claim that it is anywhere near complete.</SPAN><BR></DIV> <DIV>>ki-was^tecaka ye!<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>'behave yourself!'<o:p></o:p></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language:
EN-US"><o:p> ></o:p></SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">This is a dative. It means "Be nice to him/her." </SPAN></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">It's impossible to tell whether a certain ki- is a dative or a 'become'-ki- just from looking at the verb form. The translation might not always be helpful in resloving such conflicts. At least, in my translation, a secondary argument that represents a recipient or experiencer is not indicated. And I really trust my speakers.</SPAN></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"></SPAN> </DIV><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"> <DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:City><st1:place><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language:
EN-US">>Regina</SPAN></st1:place></st1:City><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">, what does your data say on conjugating the verbs in your list?</SPAN></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">Unfortunately, nothing. That's the weak spot in my data. As I said, I didn't do much work on ki- because I accidentally removed the file from the active field materials that needed double-checking years ago, as I found out yesterday. But having data on inflection might help answer the quesion of what particular type of ki- we're looking at in individual cases.</SPAN></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">Regina</SPAN></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"></SPAN> </DIV></SPAN> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR><B><I>Jan Ullrich <jfu@centrum.cz></I></B> wrote:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.6000.16544" name=GENERATOR> <DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-bidi-font-style: italic; mso-ansi-language: EN-US">I think it should be noted here that the meaning of the prefix ki- is not "to become" but "to return to the original state". Notice kini 'to come back to life', not 'to become alive'. The prefix is used with this meaning throughout the text corpus. Most of the words with ki- given in Buechel's dictionary originate in his translation of the Bible History texts (for instance ki-sagye – 'to turn into a cane' is used in the story about Moses) and are not attested by contemporary speakers. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-bidi-font-style: italic; mso-ansi-language: EN-US">It is true that some younger speakers today use ki- with the meaning 'to become'</SPAN><SPAN lang=LV style="mso-bidi-font-style: italic; mso-ansi-language: LV">, but its use is semantically restricted, occurs for instance in </SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-bidi-font-style: italic; mso-ansi-language: EN-US">kiwichas^</SPAN><SPAN lang=LV style="mso-bidi-font-style: italic; mso-ansi-language: LV">a – 'to become a man'. Deloria (in her grammar) defines </SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-bidi-font-style: italic; mso-ansi-language: EN-US">kiwichas^</SPAN><SPAN lang=LV style="mso-bidi-font-style: italic; mso-ansi-language: LV">a as 'to become a man again (like a human who in a tale had appeared in animal shape)' and kiwiNyaN as 'to become a (respectable) woman again'<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=LV
style="mso-bidi-font-style: italic; mso-ansi-language: LV">In my experience and fieldword data, the prefix is not productive. So I am a bit surprised by some of the words in Regina's list. If the words come from eliciting rather than texts, I would recoment caution and cross checking.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-bidi-font-style: italic; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">> ki-ska 'to turn white'<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">Deloria and a couple of my native informants give "to fade (to return to an original white color)" See also Bushotter's sentence: …
oowa uN owapi tkha hechunpi chan echakchala kiska s'a – 'when they painted (those things) with colors they often faded'<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">> ki-suta<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>'to get hard'<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">'to become hard again' as in mazasu s^</SPAN><SPAN lang=LV style="mso-ansi-language: LV">loyiN na kisuta<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>'The bullets he melted became hard again'</SPAN><o:p></o:p></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">> ki-bleza<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>'to become conscious'<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">'to become clear-minded or conscious again, come to one's senses', this is often used for 'to sober up'<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">> ki-was^tecaka ye!<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>'behave yourself!'<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV> <DIV
class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">This is a dative. It means "Be nice to him/her." Very common phrase.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">> ki-thamahecha<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>'to get skinny'<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">> ki-haNska<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>'to get tall'<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">> ki-ksapa<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>'he got smart'<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">> ki-luzahaN 'to get fast'<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">> ki-'okhate<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>'to become warm inside, like when turning up the heat'<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><o:p> </o:p></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">These are all somewhat surprising to me.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">Notice also, that for instance kini 'to come
back to life' is an active verb (1s wakini), but kibleza 'to conscious again' is treated as a stative verb (1s: makibleze). This makes me wonder whether some of the ki- words actually originate in dative, just as akisni – 'to recover from smth, as a sickness (1s: amakisni)' or iyokiphi 'to be pleased with' 1s: iyomakiphi). <o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><st1:City><st1:place><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">Regina</SPAN></st1:place></st1:City><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">, what does your data say on conjugating the verbs in your list?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">Jan</SPAN></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
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