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<DIV><SPAN class=078121810-13122007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Regina, </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=078121810-13122007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=078121810-13122007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I
fully agree with this conclusion. I have always been under the impression that
the vertitives are possessive forms of the "non-vertitive" verbs.
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=078121810-13122007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=078121810-13122007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>u -> ku</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=078121810-13122007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>hi -> gli</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=078121810-13122007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>ya -> gla</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=078121810-13122007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>i -> khi</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=078121810-13122007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=078121810-13122007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>The
only one that doesn't fit in (synchronically) is khi 'to arrive back there', but
I am sure there is some diachronical explanation for the aspiration in it. Could
some one elaborate on that?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=078121810-13122007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=078121810-13122007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Jan</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=078121810-13122007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=078121810-13122007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=078121810-13122007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=078121810-13122007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=cs dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
owner-siouan@lists.colorado.edu [mailto:owner-siouan@lists.colorado.edu] <B>On
Behalf Of </B>REGINA PUSTET<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, December 13, 2007 10:54
AM<BR><B>To:</B> siouan@lists.colorado.edu<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: Siouan ki-
'become (again)', 'return to'<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>(quoting Bob)</DIV>
<DIV>>Mississippi Valley Siouan *k-ri (syncope always applies) > Lakota
gli, Dak. hdi, etc. 'arrive >back'. I'd reconstruct all of those initial
vertitive g- (and k-) in Lakota as originally proto->Siouan *ki-, with the
vowel present in other subgroups. Come to think of it, I guess it >doesn't
"surface" in Lakota. <BR></DIV>
<DIV>Now I understand. The reason I didn't make that mental connection is
that I thought that the ki-prefix, which indeed doesn't really surface in
Lakota motion verbs such as gli 'have arrived at home', gla 'go home', and ku
'come home' but whose historical presence somehow imposes itself when you deal
with these verbs systematically, is acually the POSSESSIVE ki-.
Wouldn't that make sense? All these verbs imply 'home, place where one
belongs', i.e. a location that you are possessively attached to, as the
destination of the act of moving. I haven't immersed myself into historical
studies regarding this issue tho, so chances are that this analysis can be
ruled out on the basis of comparative data.</DIV>
<DIV>Regina</DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR><B><I>"Rankin, Robert L" <rankin@ku.edu></I></B>
wrote:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">I'm
sorry; I do have trouble sometimes looking at these problems from the Lakota
point of view, since Lakota is not on my list of accomplishments! I was
looking at vertitive from the point of view of languages like Tutelo, where
'to go home' (Sapir's translation)is gi-li, cf. Biloxi ki-di, but
Mississippi Valley Siouan *k-ri (syncope always applies) > Lakota gli,
Dak. hdi, etc. 'arrive back'. I'd reconstruct all of those initial vertitive
g- (and k-) in Lakota as originally proto-Siouan *ki-, with the vowel
present in other subgroups. Come to think of it, I guess it doesn't
"surface" in Lakota. <BR><BR>Allan Taylor's article in IJAL from the
early/mid '70s details some of the interesting idiosyncracies of the motion
verbs, and Linda Cumberland has done interesting recent work on how they
structure. <BR><BR>This discussion of 'become'/'become again' is really
interesting to me, as I had overlooked it in Boas and Deloria and have only
the very few cases in Dhegiha. I wonder how much I missed in Kaw from simply
failing to ask the right questions? Now I'm really curious about how they
are conjugated. I hope someone will ask.
<BR><BR>________________________________<BR><BR>From:
owner-siouan@lists.colorado.edu on behalf of REGINA PUSTET<BR>Sent: Tue
12/11/2007 2:09 PM<BR>To: siouan@lists.colorado.edu<BR>Subject: RE: Siouan
ki- 'become (again)', 'return to'<BR><BR><BR>Thanks Bob, that helps a
lot.<BR><BR>>All other Siouan languages without exception have ki-
'vertitive' with verbs of motion, but >only a few seem to have
generalized a relatively productive use with non-motion verbs.<BR><BR>Off
the top of my head, I can't come up with examples of vertitive ki- with
motion verbs in Lakota (although khi- 'separative etc.' does occur with
motion verbs, but that's probably irrelevant here, unless there is a
connection between vertitive and khi-). Which does not mean, of course, that
historically speaking, Lakota ki- 'to become' cannot be analyzed as a
vertitive.<BR><BR>>So the syncope rule is only productive with motion
verbs, while its (apparent) extension to >other verbs and nouns seems to
involve only invariant ki-. <BR><BR>At least in Lakota, motion verbs exhibit
morphological irregularities that are not found in any other part of the
grammar -- they are strcuturally special. This might be the case in other
Siouan languages as well, I just don't have the necessary background to
judge the situation. At any rate, if motion verbs have a special status in
Siouan in general, it wouldn't surprise me if they showed idiosyncratic
behavior wirh respect to ki-syncopation.<BR><BR>Regina<BR><BR>"Rankin,
Robert L" <RANKIN@KU.EDU>wrote:<BR><BR>Looking at the verb prefix templates
and examples of the prefix orders in several languages and comparing Jan's
Lakota examples, it appears that the ki- we are discussing is more closely
related to the vertitive than to either reflexive or instrumentals. The most
general use of ki- I have found (outside of Jan's and Regina's new [to me]
Dakotan cases) is in Mandan, where Mixco and others have a generalized ki-
that occurs immediately preceding the verb with the meaning 'become'. Some
posit a homophonous Mandan prefix ki- meaning 'again', but I tend to think
of these as a single affix, especially in light of Jan's observations.
<BR><BR>All other Siouan languages without exception have ki- 'vertitive'
with verbs of motion, but only a few seem to have generalized a relatively
productive use with non-motion verbs. There are one or two differences in
the behavior of these prefixes however. The ki- of kini does not seem to
undergo syncopy like the vertitive with motion verbs. Otherwise I would
expect something closer to g-ni 'recover', which does not occur in any
Siouan language. Similarly, we might expect to find g-luzahaN 'to get fast'
or k-haNska 'to get tall', neither of which occurs. So the syncope rule is
only productive with motion verbs, while its (apparent) extension to other
verbs and nouns seems to involve only invariant ki-.
<BR><BR>Bob<BR><BR>________________________________<BR><BR>From:
owner-siouan@lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jan Ullrich<BR>Sent: Tue
12/11/2007 2:20 AM<BR>To: siouan@lists.colorado.edu<BR>Subject: RE: Lakota
ki- 'to become by itself'<BR><BR><BR><BR>I think it should be noted here
that the meaning of the prefix ki- is not "to become" but "to return to the
original state". Notice kini 'to come back to life', not 'to become alive'.
The prefix is used with this meaning throughout the text corpus. Most of the
words with ki- given in Buechel's dictionary originate in his translation of
the Bible History texts (for instance ki-sagye - 'to turn into a cane' is
used in the story about Moses) and are not attested by contemporary
speakers. <BR><BR>It is true that some younger speakers today use ki- with
the meaning 'to become', but its use is semantically restricted, occurs for
instance in kiwichas^a - 'to become a man'. Deloria (in her grammar) defines
kiwichas^a as 'to become a man again (like a human who in a tale had
appeared in animal shape)' and kiwiNyaN as 'to become a (respectable) woman
again'<BR><BR>In my experience and fieldword data, the prefix is not
productive. So I am a bit surprised by some of the words in Regina's list.
If the words come from eliciting rather than texts, I would recoment caution
and cross checking.<BR><BR><BR><BR>> ki-ska 'to turn
white'<BR><BR><BR><BR>Deloria and a couple of my native informants give "to
fade (to return to an original white color)" See also Bushotter's sentence:
... oowa uN owapi tkha hechunpi chan echakchala kiska s'a - 'when they
painted (those things) with colors they often faded'<BR><BR><BR><BR>>
ki-suta 'to get hard'<BR><BR><BR><BR>'to become hard again' as in mazasu
s^loyiN na kisuta 'The bullets he melted became hard
again'<BR><BR><BR><BR>> ki-bleza 'to become conscious'<BR><BR><BR><BR>'to
become clear-minded or conscious again, come to one's senses', this is often
used for 'to sober up'<BR><BR><BR><BR>> ki-was^tecaka ye! 'behave
yourself!'<BR><BR><BR><BR>This is a dative. It means "Be nice to him/her."
Very common phrase.<BR><BR><BR><BR>> ki-thamahecha 'to get
skinny'<BR><BR>> ki-haNska 'to get tall'<BR><BR>> ki-ksapa 'he got
smart'<BR><BR>> ki-luzahaN 'to get fast'<BR><BR>> ki-'okhate 'to
become warm inside, like when turning up the heat'<BR><BR><BR><BR>These are
all somewhat surprising to me.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Notice also, that for instance
kini 'to come back to life' is an active verb (1s wakini), but kibleza 'to
conscious again' is treated as a stative verb (1s: makibleze). This makes me
wonder whether some of the ki- words actually originate in dative, just as
akisni - 'to recover from smth, as a sickness (1s: amakisni)' or iyokiphi
'to be pleased with' 1s: iyomakiphi). <BR><BR>Regina, what does your data
say on conjugating the verbs in your
list?<BR><BR><BR><BR>Jan<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>________________________________<BR><BR>Be
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