<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-text-stroke-width: -1; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000">Very interesting quote & accompanying thoughts, Alfred!</font></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica"><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000"> </font></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-text-stroke-width: -1; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000">First of all, thanks for recommending greater in-depth analysis of E. A-O-H's style to the attention of the Siouan List-members. You already know (perhaps 'ad nauseam'! ;) ) what I think of the literary stature of this 'sui generis' Lakhota author, so I appreciate very much your giving some serious consideration to his writings! Besten Dank dafür!</font></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000"> </font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000">I would very much like to discuss this (& many other A-O-H sentences & constructions) further, a little later. In the meantime, what do you make of this attempt at a more literal rendering of A-O-H's Lakhota? :</font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000"><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000">Emil Afraid-Of-Hawk's Lakhota :</font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000"><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000">"Hoks^ila kiN thaNchaN kiksuyes^ni hiNgle, thawachiN kiksuyes^ni hiyu k'uN he iyechel, taku iyukcaNpi kta okihipi s^ni ogna kiksuyes^ni. YunkhaN woeye kiN lena ---- ChaNte t'inza yo! --ChaNte t'iNza yo! --- ChaNte t'iNza yo! -- ChaNte t'iNza yo! -- ChaNte t'iNza yo! ---- olowaN ogna chaNcheg^a uN iyaphapi nah^uN kiN uN kiksuya hingle."</font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000"><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000"><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000">Ann Nolan Clark's original :</font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000"><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000">"The boy's body had become numb, senseless to the passing of time as his mind had become numb, senseless to the pain of thinking. The phrase ---- "be brave!" --"be brave!--be brave!---be brave!--be brave! ---- beat into his consciousness with the rhythmic regularity of the pounding of a drum."</font></div><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000">Another version :</font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#FF00FF"><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(255, 0, 255); ">"The boy's body had suddenly become numb, even as his mind had emerged (lit. :'come out of it (the experience)') into insensibility, insensible in the sense (lit. 'by way of/in the manner of') of an incapacity for thought of any kind. And then, all of a sudden he became conscious of hearing the following words --- "Be firm of heart!-- be firm of heart! -- be firm of heart! --be firm of heart!--be firm of heart!" ---- pounded out on a drum in the manner (lit. 'by way of') of a tune. ('in a sing-song way'??)."</span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#FF00FF"><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000">Hmm, I wonder why he didn't deem it necessary to use "s'e" or "sekse" (i.e. following 'iyaphapi') with that metaphor? Perhaps to emphasize the intensity of the boy's "stunned" state of mind & emotion in his grief at his grandfather's impending death, a kind of giddiness, or temporary derangement of the senses, underlining the virtual reality of the sounds he hears within?</font></div><div><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000">Incidentally, I very much like your suggestion of a likely etymological relationship between the roots of kiksuyA ('remember/call to mind/be mindful, conscious of'), kiksuyes^ni 'insensible/unaware/unconscious/unfeeling/insensitive', and of ksuyeyA ('hurt/inflict injury); ksuyayapi ('be hurt/injured'), etc.. </font><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-text-stroke-width: -1; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000">That seems fairly persuasive, imho. </font></span></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000">There is also, apparently, a verb : 'waksuyeyA/waksuyewaye' ('HURT people's FEELINGS') on hand to strengthen your case there.</font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000"> </font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000">Might that be E. A-O-H's way of rendering at least some flavour of Clark's "senseless to the pain of thinking", which may (possibly) be too 'alien' a metaphor for a Lakhota speaker?</font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000">Could it be as well, that E. A-O-K deemed that other idea : "senseless to the passing of time", excessive, or artistically superfluous in some way?</font></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000">I too am wondering why he didn't attempt translation! </font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000">Also that 'ki-' prefix in the B&D's original sense of 'back again' seems to be operating in a similar way to 're-' in 'remember/remembrance', isn't it?</font></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000">Reminds me a little (etymologically) of the French word : "ressentiment", for some reason! </font></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000">Do you recall the way Thomas Hobbes once brilliantly defined memory ('Leviathan' (1651): Part 1; ch.2) as "DECAYING SENSE"? </font></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000">He went on to characterize "Remembrance" as : </font></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000">"Calling to mind : the Latines call it 'Reminiscentia', as it were a Re-conning of our former actions." (ibid. Part 1; ch.3) </font><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-text-stroke-width: -1; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000">Wish English was still written like that! </font></span></div></div></div></blockquote><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000"><br></font><blockquote type="cite"><div><div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-text-stroke-width: -1; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000">Lastly, here is an interesting germane passage from another of Emil Afraid-Of-Hawk's translations of Ann NOLAN CLARK. </font></span></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-text-stroke-width: -1; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000">It occurs in the beautiful "There Still Are Buffalo" (NahaNh^ci Pte YukhaNpi) (1942), (which I can only characterize, albeit somewhat unscientifically, as a sort of extended poetic rhapsody in praise of the Buffalo's life-cycle & mystical symbolism to the Oyate!) </font></span></div></div></div></blockquote><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000"><br></font><blockquote type="cite"><div><div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-text-stroke-width: -1; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000">Once more, to provide context & to give some idea of the talents of BOTH writers, I will quote at some length : <font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000">[from Section XV, pp. 68-69] </font><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 221); ">:</span></font></span></div></div></div></blockquote><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000"><br></font><blockquote type="cite"><div><div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-text-stroke-width: -1; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000">"Waniyetu kin thate h^upahu kin uN</font></span></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-text-stroke-width: -1; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000">kiyaN iyopte kiN iyecheca.</font></span></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-text-stroke-width: -1; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000">Waniyetu kiN hena iyopta upi. </font></span></div></div></div></blockquote><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000"><br></font><blockquote type="cite"><div><div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-text-stroke-width: -1; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000">Mag^az^us^ni kiN iyokhiheya manita ona thaNka he.</font></span></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-text-stroke-width: -1; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000">ChaNkhe waMakas^kaN kiN iyuha pheta ile ye kiN</font></span></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-text-stroke-width: -1; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000">kaithokap naphapi,</font></span></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-text-stroke-width: -1; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000">kholakichiyapi na thokakichiyapi,</font></span></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-text-stroke-width: -1; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000">k'eyas^ ichisakip,</font></span></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-text-stroke-width: -1;"><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000">WACHIGNUNIYAN</font></span></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-text-stroke-width: -1; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000">na IC'IKSUYAPI S^NI,</font></span></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-text-stroke-width: -1; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000">nipi kta uN he ogna echela, </font></span></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-text-stroke-width: -1; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000">inah^ni ichinaphapi. </font></span></div></div></div></blockquote><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000"><br></font><blockquote type="cite"><div><div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-text-stroke-width: -1; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000">YunkhaN uNgnahela mag^az^u ahi.</font></span></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-text-stroke-width: -1; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000">YunkhaN WakhaNthaNka/ thais^taminyaNyaNpi kiN uN</font></span></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-text-stroke-width: -1; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000">makhoche kiN thaopi s'elecheca kiN uN</font></span></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-text-stroke-width: -1; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000">woyazaN kiN asniye kiN he iyecheca. </font></span></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-text-stroke-width: -1; "></span></font></div></div></div></blockquote><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000"><br></font><blockquote type="cite"><div><div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-text-stroke-width: -1; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000">Mag^az^u na ohakap icamna ahi....."</font></span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div>Ann NOLAN CLARK's original reads :</div><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div>"The Years blow by</div><div>on the wings of the wind.</div><div>The years pass by.</div><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div>Drought is followed by prairie fire.</div><div>The animals run before the flames,</div><div>friend and foe,</div><div>side by side,</div><div>their brains NUMB,</div><div>their hearts UNFEELING,</div><div>only their instincts to live</div><div>urging them onward.</div><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div>Then rain comes</div><div>like the tears</div><div>of the Great Mystery,</div><div>healing the pain</div><div>of the wounded world.</div><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div>Snow follows rain....."<span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-text-stroke-width: -1; "></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-text-stroke-width: -1;"><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-text-stroke-width: -1;"><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-text-stroke-width: -1; ">Alles Gute, </span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-text-stroke-width: -1;"><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-text-stroke-width: -1; ">Clive.</span></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div><br></div></div></blockquote><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-text-stroke-width: -1;"><br></span></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div>On 13/12/2007, at 7:06 AM, Alfred W. Tüting wrote:<br></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: 'Marker Felt'; font-size: 16px; line-height: 20px; "><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="GentiumAlt" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; line-height: normal; white-space: pre;"><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="GentiumAlt" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; line-height: normal; white-space: pre;">(Replying to Clive's informative quotes I wrote)</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="GentiumAlt" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; line-height: normal; white-space: pre;"><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></span></font></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="line-height: normal; white-space: pre; "><font class="Apple-style-span" face="GentiumAlt" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; ">> As had been already pointed out earlier here, the Siouan "concept" of "feeling"</span></font></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="line-height: normal; white-space: pre; "><font class="Apple-style-span" face="GentiumAlt" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; ">> (of physical or emotional processes/states) obviously has to do with "mind", </span></font></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="line-height: normal; white-space: pre; "><font class="Apple-style-span" face="GentiumAlt" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; ">> "will", "knowledge", rather than "emotion", "sensation", "sense perception".</span></font></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="line-height: normal; white-space: pre; "><font class="Apple-style-span" face="GentiumAlt" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; ">> Hence, _txawat'elya_ is given as "to be willing (sic!) for anything; desirous</span></font></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="line-height: normal; white-space: pre; "><font class="Apple-style-span" face="GentiumAlt" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; ">> to do or suffer" (also cf. _txawat'elkiya_ - to be willing...) B.-M.</span></font></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="line-height: normal; white-space: pre; "><font class="Apple-style-span" face="GentiumAlt" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; ">></span></font></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="line-height: normal; white-space: pre; "><font class="Apple-style-span" face="GentiumAlt" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; ">> Your other examples seem to fit in this concept, where the verbs _slolkiyA_ -</span></font></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="line-height: normal; white-space: pre; "><font class="Apple-style-span" face="GentiumAlt" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; ">> "to know (sic!) one's own" and _kiksuyA_ - "to remember", "to be conscious"(!)</span></font></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="line-height: normal; white-space: pre; "><font class="Apple-style-span" face="GentiumAlt" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; ">> are used.</span></font></span></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="GentiumAlt" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; line-height: normal; white-space: pre;"><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="GentiumAlt" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; line-height: normal; white-space: pre;"><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="GentiumAlt" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; line-height: normal; white-space: pre;">Not unlike Clive, I also highly appreciate the great ability and penmanship of Emil Afraid of Hawk since quite some time (although I could claim by no means to being able to really judge this personality's great work!).</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="GentiumAlt" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; line-height: normal; white-space: pre;">Searching through his translation of "Brave Against the Enemy" for further examples of the Dakotan concept of "feeling" I came across the following reference (quoted in the PDF-file attached below) where, again, the expression "kiksuyA" can be found, albeit with a slightly different "hue".</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="GentiumAlt" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; line-height: normal; white-space: pre;"><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="GentiumAlt" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; line-height: normal; white-space: pre;">As it seems to me, our initial topic, by chance split up in two threads, might be rooted in the same "soil".</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="GentiumAlt" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; line-height: normal; white-space: pre;">I'd appreciate to learn your experts' view?</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="GentiumAlt" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; line-height: normal; white-space: pre;"><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="GentiumAlt" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; line-height: normal; white-space: pre;">Alfred</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="GentiumAlt" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; line-height: normal; white-space: pre;"><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="GentiumAlt" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; line-height: normal; white-space: pre;"><div><div><div></div></div></div></span></font></div></span><span><Brave against the enemy.pdf></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: 'Marker Felt'; font-size: 16px; line-height: 20px; "><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="GentiumAlt" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; line-height: normal; white-space: pre;"><div><div><div></div></div></div></span></font></div></span></blockquote></div><br></blockquote></div><br></body></html>