After rereading Johannes' and Bob's posts, I can say I agree in general with the idea of building a principally typological comparative grammar that focusses on morphosyntactic features. Nonetheless, I would caution us against going too far with rooting out "invisible" things. Bob's original question was whether we should even admit solutions that appeal to "invisible" things, and I think the answer to that should be a resounding Yes, as long as the primary focus is morphosyntactic description and not theorising. Sometimes the "invisible" answer is much better than any other answer, and quite frankly, morphosyntactic descriptions often don't provide any answers at all, so at least a tentative first stab at one should be welcome, no matter how visible its structure is.<br>
<br>That being said, like Catherine and Johannes, I think we should certainly make sure the primary focus of each piece is morphosyntactic description and anything else should be secondary.<br><br>- Bryan<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">
2008/7/2 Catherine Rudin <<a href="mailto:carudin1@wsc.edu">carudin1@wsc.edu</a>>:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Hi, all.<br>
No one has responded to this, so I guess we must all be more or less in agreement. (Or not reading e-mail.)<br>
<br>
I personally DO have a very deep (sorry) interest in what Bob and Johannes call "invisible" structures. And I'd argue that it's pretty much impossible to talk about grammar without invoking some degree of abstraction: "Noun Phrase", for instance, is an abstract, "invisible" concept - even phonemes are abstractions ---<br>
<br>
However, that said, I agree with Johannes that this project should focus on (relatively surface-y) typological description. That will be hard enough!! After the project is done, anyone who wants can take the results and analyze them from a historical or theoretical syntactic or whatever other view.<br>
<br>
Just my 2 cents -<br>
Catherine<br>
<br>
>>> "Prof. Dr. Johannes Helmbrecht" <<a href="mailto:johannes.helmbrecht@sprachlit.uni-regensburg.de">johannes.helmbrecht@sprachlit.uni-regensburg.de</a>> 06/26/08 6:56 AM >>><br>
<div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c">Dear Siouanists,<br>
<br>
Bob touches quite fundamental questions with regard to the Comparative Siouan Grammar project and I<br>
think it would be helpful for the entire project but also for each individual contributor and contribution if we<br>
find some answers to these questions in advance.<br>
<br>
My personal view on this is the following. First of all, I think the overall goal is to describe the<br>
morphosyntactic diversity among the Siouan languages. Most of us are experts for just one or two of the<br>
Siouan languages, but have only a cursory knowledge of the other SL. Or, we perceive SL through the<br>
glasses of the better documented SL like Lakhota. Such a project forces us to look deeper into the other SL<br>
at least with regard to a certain grammatical domain. My hope and conviction is that the more we know<br>
about the divers grammatical categories and constructions among the SL the better we can investigate and<br>
describe the language we are already experts in. Perhaps, we find new things in our "own" language if we<br>
know more about the other SL. So, "comparative" in my view means primarily diversity (and uniformity(?))<br>
among SL. This is of course close to what typologist do with the difference that our sample of languages is<br>
limited and that we can also start with certain grammatical categories and construction we already know that<br>
they are prominent in SL.<br>
<br>
This typologically biased view on "comparative" does not preclude the historical perspective. On the<br>
contrary, we are all interested in the question how the various categories and constructions historically<br>
emerged even if we can reconstruct this only on the basis of the contemporary SL. The ideal would be that<br>
we could combine both perspectives on "comparative" in our individual contributions. Since I am not a<br>
historical linguist, I would of course have difficulties to reconstruct forms in a deepness and quality as Bob,<br>
David, and others could do it. So, in my own contributions this perspective would remain somewhat weak.<br>
<br>
On the last point mentioned in Bob's mail, I can comment on pretty shortly. I have no interest in invisible<br>
underlying structures or superstructures or aim to proof certain rather abstract models of grammar with data<br>
from SL. I think, many of us share this view, so I do not see a problem here too.<br>
<br>
I regret, that I could not attend the conference in Joplin, but I am looking forward to the nest year's<br>
conference in Lincoln.<br>
<br>
Best<br>
Johannes<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Datum: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 14:27:23 -0500<br>
Antwort an: <a href="mailto:siouan@lists.Colorado.EDU">siouan@lists.Colorado.EDU</a><br>
Von: "Rankin, Robert L" <<a href="mailto:rankin@ku.edu">rankin@ku.edu</a>><br>
An: <<a href="mailto:siouan@lists.Colorado.EDU">siouan@lists.Colorado.EDU</a>><br>
Betreff: RE: Comparative Siouan Grammar project<br>
<br>
> Dear Colleagues,<br>
><br>
> Before we get too far along with this project, we might want to set<br>
> some goals and limits. "Comparative grammar" is a pretty flexible<br>
> topic and we might want to try to specify what we mean. Does this<br>
> mean "comparative and historical" in the traditional sense? Or are<br>
> people thinking more along the lines of synchronic grammars and some<br>
> sort of typological approach? Do we intend to limit ourselves to<br>
> surface grammar (that's certainly what the historical apporoach would<br>
</div></div>> requirt solutions that appeal to<br>
<div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c">> invisible/hypothetical superstructure? It seems to me that these<br>
> would be vastly different projects appealing to different kinds of<br>
> evidence and information. It's probably worth thinking about in<br>
> advance.<br>
><br>
> Thanks to a lot of hard work by Jill and Catherine, the meeting in<br>
> Joplin was a lot of fun and very informative. I'm looking forward to<br>
> next year's meeting already.<br>
><br>
> Bob<br>
><br>
> ________________________________<br>
><br>
> In Billings, we had a planning session led by Linda Cumberland and<br>
> John Boyle. On the huge blackboard there we outlined and summarized<br>
> the topics to be included in the projected three volume opus of a CSG.<br>
><br>
><br>
> According to my notes and recollections, Vol. III contains sketches of<br>
> the individual Siouan languages following perhaps a common scheme<br>
> (which does not exist yet, of course)<br>
><br>
><br>
> Vol. I contains investigations to the following topics. I will mention<br>
> also the names as far as I can remember (I may be wrong, though).<br>
><br>
><br>
> Obliques/ Postpositions (Regina Pustet)<br>
> Applicatives (including the benefactive applicative) (Johannes<br>
> Helmbrecht)<br>
> Determiners (?)<br>
> Nominal Possession (?)<br>
> t-words (Bruce Ingham?)<br>
> Prefixes (morphological positions, etc.) (Bob Rankin)<br>
> Suffixes/ Enclitics (Bob Rankin)<br>
> Relative Clauses (?)<br>
> Switch references and clase chaining (John Boyle)<br>
> Pronominals and the stative/active split (Bob Rankin)<br>
> Deictic motion verbs (Linda Cumberland)<br>
><br>
><br>
> Vol II contains the following topics:<br>
><br>
><br>
> Plural marking<br>
> Compounding<br>
> Noun incorporation<br>
> Causatives (Helmbrecht)<br>
> External Possession<br>
> Coordination<br>
> Subordination<br>
> Instrumentals<br>
> Absolutive (wa-)<br>
> TAM<br>
> Negation<br>
> Serial verbs (David Rood ?)<br>
><br>
><br>
> That's what I have in my notes perhaps John or Linda have more in<br>
> their files.<br>
><br>
><br>
> The topics of the two volumes as given above are unordered and rather<br>
> a list of key words than a systematically developed structure of such<br>
> a project. But it was the point where we stopped further planning. It<br>
> might serve as the starting point for pushing the whole thing further.<br>
><br>
><br>
> As I indicated in my last mail, it would be of some importance for me<br>
> if I knew the precise date of the next conference in Lincoln. So,<br>
> perhaps, this could be decided on in Joplin in the coming days.<br>
><br>
><br>
> I wish everyone a wonderful and exciting conference in Joplin,<br>
><br>
><br>
> Best<br>
> Johannes<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Datum: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 13:38:13 -0500<br>
> Antwort an: <a href="mailto:siouan@lists.Colorado.EDU">siouan@lists.Colorado.EDU</a><br>
> Von: "Catherine Rudin" <<a href="mailto:carudin1@wsc.edu">carudin1@wsc.edu</a>><br>
> An: <<a href="mailto:siouan@lists.Colorado.EDU">siouan@lists.Colorado.EDU</a>><br>
> Betreff: RE: Comparative Siouan Grammar project<br>
><br>
><br>
> > I agree with Bob; it all sounds good. Language instructors'<br>
> session<br>
> > is a good idea, and we should DEFINITELY get the momentum back for<br>
> the<br>
> > comparative Siouan grammar project. These two ideas don't conflict<br>
> -<br>
> > we can do both and still have time for some regular papers at the<br>
> 2009<br>
> > meeting.<br>
> ><br>
> > I think we should devote a whole day to comparative grammar, and<br>
> we<br>
> > should get organized well in advance. I wasn't able to get to<br>
> > Billings, and I've forgotten which topic I said I would look at (am<br>
> I<br>
> > the only sieve-brain?) but I do think this is important!!! If<br>
> Johannes<br>
> > is willing to be the organizer that would be great. Is there<br>
> someone<br>
> > who will be in Joplin who could bring the list of topics/chapters<br>
> that<br>
> > was compiled before? (And/or could someone circulate it<br>
> > electronically?) I suspect I'm not the only one who could use a<br>
> > reminder.<br>
> ><br>
> > I believe that Mark has not only offered, but we collectively have<br>
> > accepted Lincoln as the 2009 site. The date I have noted is "June<br>
> 5-7<br>
> > or 12-14". Should we make a decision?<br>
> ><br>
> > Let's include a quick "business meeting" in the Joplin schedule,<br>
> with<br>
> > confirming at least next year's plans as item #1 on the agenda.<br>
</div></div>> > Tenta> I<br>
<div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c">> > tried to reply earlier to Mark's note, but it seems to have gone<br>
> only<br>
> > to him, not to the list -- at least I hope that's what happened to<br>
> it!<br>
> ><br>
> > Catherine<br>
> ><br>
> > >>> "Rankin, Robert L" <<a href="mailto:rankin@ku.edu">rankin@ku.edu</a>> 06/17/08 12:53 PM >>><br>
> > This all sounds really great to me. Perhaps Johannes would like to<br>
> be<br>
> > the organizer of the comparative sessions (which might, in turn,<br>
> > provide an even stronger rationale for his getting travel funds),<br>
> and<br>
> > Mark could organize the language instructors' sessions. Hopefully<br>
> we<br>
> > could schedule them so that we could all attend both.<br>
> ><br>
> > Bob<br>
> ><br>
> > ________________________________<br>
> ><br>
> > From: <a href="mailto:owner-siouan@lists.Colorado.EDU">owner-siouan@lists.Colorado.EDU</a> on behalf of Mark J<br>
> > Awakuni-Swetland<br>
> > Sent: Tue 6/17/2008 9:06 AM<br>
> > To: <a href="mailto:siouan@lists.Colorado.EDU">siouan@lists.Colorado.EDU</a><br>
> > Cc: <a href="mailto:owner-siouan@lists.Colorado.EDU">owner-siouan@lists.Colorado.EDU</a>; <a href="mailto:siouan@lists.Colorado.EDU">siouan@lists.Colorado.EDU</a><br>
> > Subject: Re: Comparative Siouan Grammar project<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > Aloha Johannes,<br>
> > Many thanks for your suggestions about future SACC agendas.<br>
> > I have offered to host the 2009 gathering here in Lincoln,<br>
> Nebraska<br>
> > (the center of it all...or the most distant from anywhere else sort<br>
> of<br>
> > place).<br>
> ><br>
> > The Dhegihanists have met here back in 2000 or so.<br>
> ><br>
> > I will be polling folks at Joplin about their interests regarding<br>
> the<br>
> > agenda for 2009.<br>
> ><br>
> > If there is sufficient interest in organizing a session or three<br>
> on<br>
> > the Comparative Siouan Grammar, Lincoln would be a good time to<br>
> > formalize it and push it forward a bit.<br>
> ><br>
> > There may be interest in organizing a session geared towards<br>
> language<br>
> > instructors from on- and off-rez institutions. I would suspect<br>
> that<br>
> > the Tribal Colleges in NE, SD, and OK might find this useful.<br>
> Omaha<br>
> > Nation Public School (K-12), Walthill Public School, and Winnebago<br>
> > Public School could find some value in this as well.<br>
> ><br>
> > Let's put on our thinking caps as we head to Joplin.<br>
> ><br>
> > iNcHoNxti woNgithe widoNbe ttamiNkHe.<br>
> > Uthixide<br>
> ><br>
> > Mark Awakuni-Swetland<br>
> > Assistant Professor of Anthropology<br>
> > and Native American Studies<br>
> > University of Nebraska<br>
> > Lincoln, NE 68588-0368<br>
> ><br>
> > <a href="http://omahalanguage.unl.edu" target="_blank">http://omahalanguage.unl.edu</a><br>
> > Phone 402-472-3455<br>
> > FAX: 402-472-9642<br>
> ><br>
> > "Ttenixa uxpathe egoN" a biama, winisi akHa.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > "Prof. Dr. Johannes Helmbrecht"<br>
> > <<a href="mailto:johannes.helmbrecht@sprachlit.uni-regensburg.de">johannes.helmbrecht@sprachlit.uni-regensburg.de</a>><br>
> > Sent by: <a href="mailto:owner-siouan@lists.Colorado.EDU">owner-siouan@lists.Colorado.EDU</a><br>
> ><br>
> > 06/17/2008 07:50 AM<br>
> > Please respond to<br>
> > <a href="mailto:siouan@lists.Colorado.EDU">siouan@lists.Colorado.EDU</a><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > To<br>
> > <a href="mailto:siouan@lists.Colorado.EDU">siouan@lists.Colorado.EDU</a><br>
> > cc<br>
> > Subject<br>
> > Re: Comparative Siouan Grammar project<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > Dear Siouanists,<br>
> ><br>
> > I regret very much that I won't be able to attend this year's SCLC<br>
> in<br>
> > Joplin,MO in particular because<br>
> > the program seems to be so interesting. Since I won't be<br>
> personally<br>
> > there, I would like to make<br>
> > some suggestions from the other end of the world for the future<br>
> > conferences, which may be<br>
> > discussed during the conference in Joplin.<br>
> ><br>
> > One of the exciting projeGrammar.<br>
> > Papers dealing with various aspects of Siouan grammar in a<br>
> typological<br>
> > and historical comparative<br>
> > perspective were presented there. We also compiled a list with<br>
> > additional topics filling all in all at<br>
> > least two volumes. Unfortunately, this project came to a halt<br>
> > afterwards and I would like to give it a<br>
> > new push. So, my suggestion would be to plan on a follow up<br>
> workshop<br>
> > on Siouan Comparative<br>
> > Grammar for the next year's conference, if this goal is still<br>
> > considered worthy among the participants<br>
> > to invest time and research. Could you discuss this question<br>
> during<br>
> > the coming days?<br>
> ><br>
> > For me personally, this implies that I will revise and expand my<br>
> paper<br>
> > on applicatives in Siouan. In<br>
> > addition, I volunteered for the causative constructions (if I<br>
> recall<br>
</div></div>> > that correctly), so I will start I will be able to come next<br>
<div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c">> only,<br>
> > if I can get funding for an<br>
> > overseas trip. This is not too difficult to obtain in particular<br>
> for<br>
> > such a fascinating project, but I need<br>
> > the conference details some months in advance in order to be able<br>
> to<br>
> > apply for money. Therefore, I<br>
> > would like to ask you to fix a date and location for the next and<br>
> if<br>
> > possible for the conference in two<br>
> > years so that people from abroad have a chance to get the<br>
> necessary<br>
> > funding. John Boyle<br>
> > mentioned to me that he is going to organize a conference in<br>
> Chicago<br>
> > in 2010?<br>
> ><br>
> > Anyway, I think the meeting in Joplin could provide a good<br>
> opportunity<br>
> > to talk about the state of the<br>
> > art with regard to the comparative Siouan Grammar project and to<br>
> plan<br>
> > on the next steps.<br>
> > Personally, I would like to participate in the planning, the<br>
> > organization, and the research as much as<br>
> > I can so that this project will come to a succesful end.<br>
> ><br>
> > So, I wish all of you a wonderful and interesting meeting in<br>
> Joplin,<br>
> ><br>
> > Best,<br>
> > Johannes<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > --<br>
> ><br>
> > Prof. Dr. Johannes Helmbrecht<br>
> > Lehrstuhl für Allgemeine und Vergleichende Sprachwissenschaft<br>
> > Universität Regensburg<br>
> > Philosophische Fakultät IV<br>
> > Sprach- und Literaturwissenschaft<br>
> > Universitätsstr. 31<br>
> > 93053 Regensburg<br>
> > Deutschland<br>
> ><br>
> > Tel: ++49(0)941 943-3388<br>
> > ++49(0)941 943-3387 (Sekretariat)<br>
> > Fax: ++49(0)941 943-2429<br>
> > E-Mail: <a href="mailto:johannes.helmbrecht@sprachlit.uni-regenburg.de">johannes.helmbrecht@sprachlit.uni-regenburg.de</a><br>
> > Webseite: <a href="http://www-avs.uni-regensburg.de/index.htm" target="_blank">http://www-avs.uni-regensburg.de/index.htm</a><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> --<br>
><br>
><br>
> Prof. Dr. Johannes Helmbrecht<br>
> Lehrstuhl für Allgemeine und Vergleichende Sprachwissenschaft<br>
> Universität Regensburg<br>
> Philosophische Fakultät IV<br>
> Sprach- und Literaturwissenschaft<br>
> Universitätsstr. 31<br>
> 93053 Regensburg<br>
> Deutschland<br>
><br>
> Tel: ++49(0)941 943-3388<br>
> ++49(0)941 943-3387 (Sekretariat)<br>
> Fax: ++49(0)941 943-2429<br>
> E-Mail: <a href="mailto:johannes.helmbrecht@sprachlit.uni-regenburg.de">johannes.helmbrecht@sprachlit.uni-regenburg.de</a><br>
> Webseite: <a href="http://www-avs.uni-regensburg.de/index.htm" target="_blank">http://www-avs.uni-regensburg.de/index.htm</a><br>
> <<a href="http://www-avs.uni-regensburg.de/index.htm" target="_blank">http://www-avs.uni-regensburg.de/index.htm</a>><br>
><br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
<br>
Prof. Dr. Johannes Helmbrecht<br>
Lehrstuhl für Allgemeine und Vergleichende Sprachwissenschaft<br>
Universität Regensburg<br>
Philosophische Fakultät IV<br>
Sprach- und Literaturwissenschaft<br>
Universitätsstr. 31<br>
93053 Regensburg<br>
Deutschland<br>
<br>
Tel: ++49(0)941 943-3388<br>
++49(0)941 943-3387 (Sekretariat)<br>
Fax: ++49(0)941 943-2429<br>
E-Mail: <a href="mailto:johannes.helmbrecht@sprachlit.uni-regenburg.de">johannes.helmbrecht@sprachlit.uni-regenburg.de</a><br>
Webseite: <a href="http://www-avs.uni-regensburg.de/index.htm" target="_blank">http://www-avs.uni-regensburg.de/index.htm</a><br>
<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>