<html><head><meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><META name="Author" content="Novell GroupWise WebAccess"></head><body style='font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; '><DIV>Thanks, Brian - I'm fine, and you are well versed in diverse fields, as always! We could go even further than the cog-sci folks, and posit that there is a universal human fear of the dark from when dangers and demons went bump in the night, and a universal gravitation toward (sun)light, for life itself, excluding those nocturnal critters, of course :) ! <BR><BR></DIV>>>> Bryan James Gordon <LINGUISTA@GMAIL.COM>02/23/11 12:35 AM >>><BR>
<DIV dir=ltr>Wow this is an engaging thread! I miss when we had more of these.
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<DIV>Hi Jill, how are you? I think, unfortunately, a native speaker could only help us to reject, not to confirm, the hypothesis, because of course you're right, if she or he did confirm that it's the colour term ska being used, we would not be able to rule out English influence. Universal metaphors have attracted some research lately in cognitive science, where they go under names like spreading activation and stereotypic processing. For a while this very question of whiteness/clearness-as-good/skillful/safe, darkness-as-bad, was getting referenced in cog-sci colloquia every other week. Ugh. There are some metaphors that have indeed proved robust cross-culturally in labs (inasmuch as labs can be cross-cultural!) - things that are generic like horoscopes - things like high-pitch-as-piercing/whining/uppity. I'm guessing most universal metaphors are this trivial or more so. The only truly inescapable metaphor is the linguistic expression as a metaphor for its referent.</DIV>
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<DIV>One thing that makes me skeptical of the clarity-metaphor's necessity is that many languages, including Umoⁿhoⁿ and Baxoje, have a word for "clear" that is <I>not </I>ska, but rather the other common Siouan word for white, sóⁿ [są] (U) / tháⁿ [θą] (B).</DIV>
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<DIV>But the arguments Bob, Rory and others have made in favour of the metaphor are also quite compelling.</DIV>
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<DIV>It's hard to decide.<BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>2011/2/22 Rory M Larson <SPAN dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:rlarson@unlnotes.unl.edu">rlarson@unlnotes.unl.edu</A>></SPAN><BR>
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<DIV class=im><TT><FONT size=2>I'm open to the possibility that some ska's might be a different word, perhaps related to shkoN. To make that connection, we'd have to both lose the nasalization and do a Siouan sound-symbolic fricative ablaut shift.</FONT></TT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>How distinctive is nasality on unstressed final low vowels anyway? Think about gthéboⁿ "ten", which only a few people pronounce that way anymore: it has become gthéba for many others. The sound-symbolic fricative ablaut is a nifty proposal. A connection to -shka would be interesting. I'd given it some thought, but nothing obvious really sticks out. Of course in Baxoje forms like shga~sga~thga~xga~hga often vary sociolinguistically or stylistically (i.e. some of them are "old" forms, others are "Jiwere" forms, etc.), so maybe this has something to do with how Baxoje uses non-cognates to express the same meaning.</DIV>
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<DIV>In the dictionary Jimm gives Lakȟota bléza "sane", Dakhota mdéza "clear", Hocąk péres "clear, sane, intelligent" as cognates of brédhe. I suspect a connection also with grédhe "many-coloured". Interestingly, rédhe is "tongue". Umoⁿhoⁿ gthéze is "spotted/rippled", maybe they don't say bthéze because they say wazhíⁿska instead, maybe one of the speakers has heard a word like bthéze before?</DIV>
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