<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <html><head> <meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8" http-equiv="Content-Type"> </head>In Kaw when aN denasalizes it becomes o rather than a.<br/><br/>Bob<p>Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry</p><hr/><div><b>From: </b> Bryan James Gordon <linguista@gmail.com>
</div><div><b>Sender: </b> <owner-siouan@lists.Colorado.EDU>
</div><div><b>Date: </b>Wed, 23 Feb 2011 21:08:55 -0700</div><div><b>To: </b><siouan@lists.Colorado.EDU></div><div><b>ReplyTo: </b> <siouan@lists.Colorado.EDU>
</div><div><b>Subject: </b>Re: cross-linguistic metaphors (fwd)</div><div><br/></div><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><div dir="ltr">I believe Jimm meant to say the same thing as David - that IOM shgaⁿ is not the same as hga/thga/shga "white". The confusion is probably my fault, because one of the things I wondered about in writing was whether the -ska "metaphors" in Umoⁿhoⁿ might be a reduced form of shkoⁿ instead of actual colour words. I think our consensus is still in favour of analysing it as a colour word, not related to shkoⁿ. And even if it's not the same as the colour word that still doesn't mean it's related to shkoⁿ. That is only a very remote possibility in a very uncertain puzzle.<br>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">2011/2/23 ROOD DAVID S <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:David.Rood@colorado.edu">David.Rood@colorado.edu</a>></span><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
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Jimm, let's be very cautious about linguistic details here. At least in Lakota, and I assume for the other languages as well, ska 'white' is a very different word from s^kaN. The former is used in e.g. the name for the Rocky Mountains, literally 'white mountains'. Jill's suggestion of 'reflective' might work here.<br>
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The latter is used for a great many spiritual concepts. It's usually glossed "moving", but it refers to the movement of spirits or mysterious beings, or the rustling of weeds and bushes in the wind (especially if it's dark), and is loaded with religious connotations. It is not at all the same as 'white'. S^kaN can have mundane uses, too. A clock is "mazas^kaNs^kaN" 'moving metal', with reference to the pendulum of a 19th century clock. Your glosses of 'diligent, active' etc. belong with this word, not the 'white' word.<div class="im">
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David<br>
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David S. Rood<br>
Dept. of Linguistics<br>
Univ. of Colorado<br>
295 UCB<br>
Boulder, CO 80309-0295<br>
USA<br>
<a href="mailto:rood@colorado.edu" target="_blank">rood@colorado.edu</a><br>
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On Wed, 23 Feb 2011, Jimm G. GoodTracks wrote:<br>
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It seems to me, that there are several tangents in motion here after the original question was prompted. As to that original question, it seems to be one of a cultural context based on English (Anglo-American Language/ word use) and then trying to fit that onto other language and cultures.<br>
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Meanwhile, it is good that the discussion was redirected to Siouan applications. Both Jill and Bryon have clerified the direction and discussion. Sometimes, we get our English mindset in motion to force or squeeze out applications of Siouan words/ terms that are applied in ways unfamiliar to the English speaker. The IOM term šgán is diferent than the term "thka ~ hga" (white color) and "thkan" (opaque, clear, transparent). The šgán of IOM refers to a particular energy that may be manifested physically or in non-material/ organic format. Perhaps one could even say in a spiritual format. In Lakota, I have seen a discussion at length of the term, but I am on the road and have to way to explore my resources nor check my new consortium Lakota Dictionary. Someone else can do that, as well as get someone well versed in Lakota terms.<br>
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For IOM, taken from my revised dictionary files, I have the following concrete offering:<br>
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šgán; skán n/v.i. (to be) diligent, active. [L/D.šgan]. **SEE: active. šgánwexa adj/v.i. hard; diligent, diligently; active, actively. šgánwéxa wa^ún v.i. work hard. Šgánwéxa ke, Uxré wa^ún rušdán gúnana, He worked hard to get done early. wósgan n. tradition; custom; habit; talent (FM).<br>
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From: Bryan James Gordon<br>
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2011 12:34 AM<br>
To: <a href="mailto:siouan@lists.Colorado.EDU" target="_blank">siouan@lists.Colorado.EDU</a><br>
Subject: Re: cross-linguistic metaphors (fwd)<br>
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Wow this is an engaging thread! I miss when we had more of these.<br>
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Hi Jill, how are you? I think, unfortunately, a native speaker could only help us to reject, not to confirm, the hypothesis, because of course you're right, if she or he did confirm that it's the colour term ska being used, we would not be able to rule out English influence. Universal metaphors have attracted some research lately in cognitive science, where they go under names like spreading activation and stereotypic processing. For a while this very question of whiteness/clearness-as-good/skillful/safe, darkness-as-bad, was getting referenced in cog-sci colloquia every other week. Ugh. There are some metaphors that have indeed proved robust cross-culturally in labs (inasmuch as labs can be cross-cultural!) - things that are generic like horoscopes - things like high-pitch-as-piercing/whining/uppity. I'm guessing most universal metaphors are this trivial or more so. The only truly inescapable metaphor is the linguistic expression as a metaphor for its referent.<br>
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One thing that makes me skeptical of the clarity-metaphor's necessity is that many languages, including Umoⁿhoⁿ and Baxoje, have a word for "clear" that is not ska, but rather the other common Siouan word for white, sóⁿ [są] (U) / tháⁿ [θą] (B).<br>
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But the arguments Bob, Rory and others have made in favour of the metaphor are also quite compelling.<br>
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It's hard to decide.<br>
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2011/2/22 Rory M Larson <<a href="mailto:rlarson@unlnotes.unl.edu" target="_blank">rlarson@unlnotes.unl.edu</a>><br>
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I'm open to the possibility that some ska's might be a different word, perhaps related to shkoN. To make that connection, we'd have to both lose the nasalization and do a Siouan sound-symbolic fricative ablaut shift.<br>
How distinctive is nasality on unstressed final low vowels anyway? Think about gthéboⁿ "ten", which only a few people pronounce that way anymore: it has become gthéba for many others. The sound-symbolic fricative ablaut is a nifty proposal. A connection to -shka would be interesting. I'd given it some thought, but nothing obvious really sticks out. Of course in Baxoje forms like shga~sga~thga~xga~hga often vary sociolinguistically or stylistically (i.e. some of them are "old" forms, others are "Jiwere" forms, etc.), so maybe this has something to do with how Baxoje uses non-cognates to express the same meaning.<br>
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In the dictionary Jimm gives Lakȟota bléza "sane", Dakhota mdéza "clear", Hocąk péres "clear, sane, intelligent" as cognates of brédhe. I suspect a connection also with grédhe "many-coloured". Interestingly, rédhe is "tongue". Umoⁿhoⁿ gthéze is "spotted/rippled", maybe they don't say bthéze because they say wazhíⁿska instead, maybe one of the speakers has heard a word like bthéze before?<br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>***********************************************************<br>Bryan James Gordon, MA<br>Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology<br>University of Arizona<br>
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