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<font face="Arial" size="3">Giulia was my student at K.U. and I supervised her dissertation. Maybe I can facilitate everybody getting these files. We need to get all her papers in .pdf form and simply distribute them to you folks who are working trying to
resuscitate Tutelo. You shouldn't have to pay for them.<br>
<br>
<font size="3">As for putting <font size="3">our conversations here on-line for the community, I don't have anything against the idea. I've been frank with my opinion of some of the attempts to bring the language to the community and I would prefer not to
get into a<font size="3"> "pissing contest" with Mr. Meuse, so maybe you can edit my comments and tone them down a bit. Unquestionably, his heart is in the right place. But a
<font size="3">spelling system for all known <font size="3">Tutelo vocabulary needs to be devised and standardized. Giulia Oliver<font size="3">io tried to do just that. Her phonemicization is basically very accurate. She did the best job she could "reconstituting"
the most conservative form of each word based on (a) the many variant spellings and, (b) her (and my) knowledge of the same words in related Siouan languages, given that sound chang<font size="3">es between languages are basically regular. Beyon<font size="3">d
that, it's up to you folks to agree on the <font size="3">regular</font>ized way of writing the standard sounds of Tutelo for learning purposes. You just start with Giulia's basic entry for each Tutelo word and substi<font size="3">tute whatever letter<font size="3">
you choose for each speech sound (phoneme). <br>
<br>
<font size="3">As for the several "pi" words<font size="3">, they may not all be the same. For example, 'good' is aspirated in the other Siouan languages, so it is almost certainly aspirated in Tutelo also. That means it should be written phonemically /p<sup>h</sup>i:/<font size="3">,
whereas some of the other "pi" words may have the unaspirated /p/ <font size="3">
that varies with [b] in some of the less fluent speakers from a century ago. <font size="3">
For example, t</font>he 'desiderative mode' marker is almost certainly unasp<font size="3">irated<font size="3"> and pronounced [pi] or [bi], depending on the speaker.</font>
<br>
<br>
<font size="3">If you're going <font size="3">to post this on the social media, permit me to repeat
<font size="3">here something I wrote with regard to another Siouan List item a week or two ago. I think it definitely says something about the problem of the various sources, spellings and pronunciations of Tutelo and the interpretation of linguists' treatments
for non-linguists.<font size="3"><br>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font><font size="3"><font face="Arial"><br>
</font><font size="3"><font face="Arial">"When I recommend writing two grammars I would intend the
</font><font size="3"><font face="Arial">layman's grammar to be something that a pedagogical professional
</font><font size="3"><font face="Arial">could benefit from when composing teaching materials, not necessarily a grammar that the students themselves could use to teach themselves the language. I have too much experience with college students who never learned
the </font><font size="3"><font face="Arial">d</font><font size="3"><font face="Arial">ifference between a noun and a verb to expect that just anyone could ha</font><font size="3"><font face="Arial">ndle any sort of language grammar. Someone trained in "language
arts" or "early childhood education", etc. should know what a past participle is or what a subjunctive is</font><font size="3"><font face="Arial">.
<br>
<br>
</font><font size="3"><font face="Arial">I liken founding a language program to constructing a large building. It takes an architect (the linguist), a civil engineer (the educationist),
</font><font size="3"><font face="Arial">plus plumbers, electricians and construction workers (the classroom teach</font><font size="3"><font face="Arial">ers, assistants and native speakers). You can imagine what happens if the architect tries to construct
the walls or the sup</font><font size="3"><font face="Arial">ports or what happens if the stone mason or carpenter tries to create the blueprin</font><font size="3"><font face="Arial">ts. So Willem is right, BUT I don't think the linguist is responsible for
every detail of classroom instruction. </font><font size="3"><font face="Arial">That requires an intermediary who is a</font><font size="3"><font face="Arial"> specialist but not necessarily a linguist</font><font face="Arial" size="3">. And it's that person
who needs to be able to understand that second book the linguist produces."<br>
<br>
<font size="3">I don't know Mr. Meuse's educational background, but I suspect he might be a good person to interpret Oliverio for students. He has an on<font size="3">-line list of vocabulary from Tutelo and several other
<font size="3">Siouan languages that he apparently put together</font></font></font> at M.I.T.'s modern languages department. If so, he
<font size="3">must be a pretty smart guy, and perhaps with a little help from all of us he'll be a help with unified learning materials. At the moment<font size="3">, we simply don't know who the fellow is.<br>
<br>
<font size="3">Best,<br>
<br>
<font size="3">Bob</font><br>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font>
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<div style="direction: ltr;" id="divRpF728517"><font color="#000000" face="Tahoma" size="2"><b>From:</b> Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360@YAHOO.COM]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, May 26, 2013 10:15 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi<br>
</font><br>
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<div><span id=".reactRoot[21].[1][4][1]{comment500417800017842_500420356684253}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2]"><span id=".reactRoot[21].[1][4][1]{comment500417800017842_500420356684253}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0"><span id=".reactRoot[21].[1][4][1]{comment500417800017842_500420356684253}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[0]">Tutelo-Saponi
Dictionary by Oliverio</span><br id=".reactRoot[21].[1][4][1]{comment500417800017842_500420356684253}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[1]">
<span id=".reactRoot[21].[1][4][1]{comment500417800017842_500420356684253}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[2]">You can order the Oliverio Tutelo-Saponi Dictionary at
</span><a id=".reactRoot[21].[1][4][1]{comment500417800017842_500420356684253}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[3]" href="http://www.proquest.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.proquest.com</a><br id=".reactRoot[21].[1][4][1]{comment500417800017842_500420356684253}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[4]">
<span id=".reactRoot[21].[1][4][1]{comment500417800017842_500420356684253}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[5]">or by calling 1-800-521-0600 or 734-761-4700</span><br id=".reactRoot[21].[1][4][1]{comment500417800017842_500420356684253}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[6]">
<span id=".reactRoot[21].[1][4][1]{comment500417800017842_500420356684253}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[7]">The UMI number is #9811327</span><br id=".reactRoot[21].[1][4][1]{comment500417800017842_500420356684253}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[8]">
<span id=".reactRoot[21].[1][4][1]{comment500417800017842_500420356684253}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[9]">"A Grammar and Dictionary of Tutelo" by Giulia R.M. Oliverio (1996)</span><br id=".reactRoot[21].[1][4][1]{comment500417800017842_500420356684253}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[10]">
<a id=".reactRoot[21].[1][4][1]{comment500417800017842_500420356684253}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[11]" href="http://eric.ed.gov/PDFS/ED351858.pdf" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://eric.ed.gov/PDFS/ED351858.pdf</a><span id=".reactRoot[21].[1][4][1]{comment500417800017842_500420356684253}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[12]">
This is a paper Oliverio did on "Tutelo Nouns". You may have to fill out a request form for the PDF file.</span></span></span></div>
<div><span><span><span></span></span></span> </div>
<div><span><span><span></span></span></span> </div>
<div><span><span><span></span></span></span> </div>
<div><br>
<br>
Scott P. Collins<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR<br>
<br>
Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle<br>
<br>
“Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.”<br>
<br>
"The greater the denial the greater the awakening."<br>
<br>
--- On <b>Sun, 5/26/13, Rankin, Robert L. <i><rankin@KU.EDU></i></b> wrote:<br>
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<br>
From: Rankin, Robert L. <rankin@KU.EDU><br>
Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi<br>
To: SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu<br>
Date: Sunday, May 26, 2013, 7:59 PM<br>
<br>
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<div>Get the whole CD from him.</div>
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<div><font style="color:#333333"><i>Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID</i></font></div>
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"Rankin, Robert L." <rankin@KU.EDU> wrote:<br>
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<div>It's in the Archive that John Boyle distributes.</div>
<div><br>
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<div>Bob</div>
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<div><br>
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<div><font style="color:#333333"><i>Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID</i></font></div>
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<br>
<br>
Rory Larson <rlarson1@UNL.EDU> wrote:<br>
<br>
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<p class="yiv147912406MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt">Great. It looks like there are three “pi” words in Tutelo-Saponi. The one for ‘smell’ is apparently an intransitive verb, which might be the awkward case for the translation.</span></p>
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<p class="yiv147912406MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
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<p class="yiv147912406MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt">Scott or Bob, is there a way to access Oliverio or anything else on Tutelo-Saponi? I’ve googled, but her book doesn’t seem to a best seller. Was it ever published, or would I need
to use interlibrary loan to take a look at it?</span></p>
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<p class="yiv147912406MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
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<p class="yiv147912406MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt">Thanks,</span></p>
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<p class="yiv147912406MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt">Rory</span></p>
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<p class="yiv147912406MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
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<p class="yiv147912406MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
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<p class="yiv147912406MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt"> Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Scott Collins<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, May 26, 2013 4:32 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi</span></p>
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<p class="yiv147912406MsoNormal">"pi: good"</p>
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<p class="yiv147912406MsoNormal">"stative V"</p>
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<p class="yiv147912406MsoNormal">piwa 'good' ---pg. 268, Oliverio</p>
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<p class="yiv147912406MsoNormal"> </p>
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<p class="yiv147912406MsoNormal">"-pi desiderative mode"</p>
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<p class="yiv147912406MsoNormal">"V suffix"</p>
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<p class="yiv147912406MsoNormal">"bi 'desiderative form' (H1878b); bi, be 'desiderative form' (H1883a)"</p>
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<p class="yiv147912406MsoNormal">"Ofo: -be 'future' "</p>
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<p class="yiv147912406MsoNormal">"maybe from pi: 'good' ; Hale: 'inserted before the negative suffix na' "</p>
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<p class="yiv147912406MsoNormal"> </p>
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<p class="yiv147912406MsoNormal">"pi:kha good, fine"</p>
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<p class="yiv147912406MsoNormal">"V"</p>
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<p class="yiv147912406MsoNormal">"ipikin 'handsome' (H1879)" </p>
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<p class="yiv147912406MsoNormal"> </p>
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<p class="yiv147912406MsoNormal">"pi smell"</p>
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<p class="yiv147912406MsoNormal">"V"</p>
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<p class="yiv147912406MsoNormal">"la-ka-pin, la-ka-pinin (Hw)"</p>
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<p class="yiv147912406MsoNormal">"see lakapi 'emit an odor' ; see also uwalahaha:</p>
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<p class="yiv147912406MsoNormal">'smell', wihoxkupsua: 'fishy smell' " ---pg. 269, Oliverio</p>
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<p class="yiv147912406MsoNormal"> </p>
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<p class="yiv147912406MsoNormal"> </p>
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<p class="yiv147912406MsoNormal"> </p>
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<p class="yiv147912406MsoNormal"> </p>
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<p class="yiv147912406MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
Scott P. Collins<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR<br>
<br>
Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle<br>
<br>
“Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.”<br>
<br>
"The greater the denial the greater the awakening."<br>
<br>
--- On <b>Sun, 5/26/13, Rory Larson <i><<a href="http://us.mc1814.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rlarson1@UNL.EDU" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">rlarson1@UNL.EDU</a>></i></b> wrote:</p>
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From: Rory Larson <<a href="http://us.mc1814.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rlarson1@UNL.EDU" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">rlarson1@UNL.EDU</a>><br>
Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi<br>
To: <a href="http://us.mc1814.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">
SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu</a><br>
Date: Sunday, May 26, 2013, 3:16 PM</p>
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<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt">Hi Scott,</span></p>
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<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
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<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt">Yes, the word “the” is what we have in mind when we talk about the “definite article”. We may use this term to refer to certain classifying words in Siouan languages as well when
we feel that they are doing about the same thing in those languages that “the” does for us in English. We should be cautious about this though, because we generally think in English or some other European language, and we may be imposing our language’s logical
paradigm on the Siouan language we are trying to understand when we classify things this way. I think it’s generally safer and more productive to try to understand each element of the language we are trying to learn on its own terms, without worrying too
much about abstract universal grammatical classifications.</span></p>
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<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
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<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt">In any case, I don’t think you should need “articles” of any kind for the simple sentence you are trying to construct. I don’t know much of anything about Tutelo-Saponi, but in Siouan
languages I do have experience with, it should break down first into two basic parts, as follows:</span></p>
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<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
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<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> [The smell of sweetgrass] [I love].</span></p>
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<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
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<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt">In English, we are required to use “the” a lot. In some other European languages, it might be required even more. In German or French, the first clause would probably have to be
[The smell of the sweetgrass], with both “smell” and “sweetgrass” getting a definite article. But in Siouan, insofar as I am familiar with it, classifying “articles” are only used when you are talking about a particular thing rather than a generality. “The
smell that reached my nose coming out of the kitchen last night” is something specific, and might take an “article”. “The smell of sweetgrass” is a generality that characterizes sweetgrass, not something specific to a particular context that you would be
referencing, so it probably would not need an article. (Languages vary: someone with a different experience may shoot me down here!) So we can probably rewrite that sentence as:</span></p>
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<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> [Smell of sweetgrass] [I love].</span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt">As Dave and Bob have pointed out, there should probably be no word for “of” in a Siouan language. They handle it differently, and for that matter, English uses “of” in subtly different
ways too. In this case, our logic makes “smell” something possessed by “sweetgrass”. That’s reasonable enough, but Siouan probably wouldn’t see it that way. Another way of handling it is to make “sweetgrass” into a sort of adjective that describes the smell
you’re talking about: “sweetgrass smell”. This works in English too, and in practice it conveys the same meaning as “the smell of sweetgrass”, though the underlying logical conception is different in the two formulations. Siouan would use the second formulation:</span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> [Sweetgrass smell] [I love].</span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt">As Dave brought out, if you are also coining the word for “sweetgrass” by simply translating “sweet” and “grass”, the order will be to stick the “adjective” (stative verb) “sweet”
after the noun, “grass”, which it describes. Hence, English “sweetgrass” in Siouan would be “grass-sweet”:</span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> [Grass-sweet smell] [I love].</span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt">Next, you need to know how to say “I love it”. For this, you should just need the I-form conjugation of the verb “love”. For most verbs, this would be pretty easy. You would simply
look up the verb “love” and then slap the I-form of the affixed pronoun in front of it. In Omaha, that would be something like a-love, as in “Ah love the smell of sweetgrass.” Unfortunately, in Siouan, as Bob points out, “love” and “like” formulations tend
to be a little more hairy, typically something like “It is good to me”, or “It is good in my heart”. They also may vary according to just what it is that is loved or liked. Loving fried chicken is different from loving your girlfriend. We don’t make the
distinction in English. Siouan languages likely do.</span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt">Finally, I would note that Siouan languages commonly have what we might call “emphatic pronouns”. This is probably what you will find in a dictionary if you look up the word “I”,
which is what I suspect your “mi” word is. In English, we must have a subject in any sentence other than a command. In Siouan, this is not necessary. We use an emphatic pronoun as a subject only when we want to emphasize it in contrast to something else.
Compare:</span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> I love the smell of sweetgrass. (I’m just telling you about myself and what I like.)</span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> *<b>I</b>* love the smell of sweetgrass. (I do, unlike somebody else we’ve been discussing, who doesn’t.)</span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt">If you use “mi” in this sentence, you will probably be conveying the second idea. So you should probably drop the “mi” and just figure out how to say “I love it” about an odor.</span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt">At this point, we have:</span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> [Grass-sweet smell] [I-love].</span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt">where the “I” is part of a conjugated form of the contruction for “love”, not a separate word by itself.</span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt">Now we just have to plug in the right translations.</span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt">It looks like you have three possible words for ‘grass’:</span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> sokta:ki</span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> mukta:ki</span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> oto:</span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt">Have you checked the Tutelo-English side of Oliverio’s dictionary to see what these translate to going the other way? Hopefully, you could refine the problem by chasing it down from
the other direction.</span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt">Bob says that oto: means ‘to be blue or green’. Could that possibly have been extended to mean ‘grass’ in some contexts as we do with vegetation when we say “greenery”?</span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt">Can the other two words be broken down into smaller elements? Are they actually so-kta:ki and mu-kta:ki, as they appear? If so, what do “so”, “mu” and “kta:ki” mean?</span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt">Meuse’s/Dorsey’s sunktagi presumably is the word Oliverio is writing as sokta:ki, so maybe we should go with this one in the way Dave suggested:</span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> sokta:ki-chiko:yo = ‘sweetgrass’ ?</span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt">Then if we are using “pi” to mean ‘smell’, we would have:</span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi = ‘sweetgrass smell’, or ‘the smell of sweetgrass’.</span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt">The problem here is that “smell” in English can be either a noun, a transitive verb, or an intransitive verb. We are looking for a noun, but it is very likely “pi” is a verb in Tutelo.
Looking in the Biloxi dictionary, both Dorsey-Swanton and Dave’s standardized version, there seem to be several forms listed on the English-Biloxi side, but all of them are verbs. (Odor, a noun, is also listed, but these are specific types of odor, mostly
bad.) The most salient word for ‘smell’ is “hi”, and I’m wondering if that isn’t cognate to Tutelo “pi”? If “pi” is a verb, we might be in trouble. Or not. Siouan can be flexible. If it is a transitive verb, then</span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi [I-love].</span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt">might mean</span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> “I love to smell sweetgrass.”</span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt">rather than</span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> “I love the smell of sweetgrass.”</span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt">Again, the logical analysis is different, but it probably won’t affect the end-user.</span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt">Bob has a good breakdown of “love” as</span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> yaⁿt-o-steke = “heart-in-good”, or “is good in one’s heart”</span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt">Biloxi has a comparable word:</span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> ki-yaⁿdi-pi = “to-one’s-heart-good”, “is good to one’s heart”, or “be satisfied (from eating)”</span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt">This one conjugates with a nasal I/we affixed pronoun before the dative or possessive marker “ki”:</span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> ⁿki-yaⁿdi-pi = “I am satisfied”</span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt">So, Biloxifying Tutelo enough to finish the sentence, why don’t we try:</span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> Sokta:ki-chiko:yo pi ⁿki-yaⁿt-osteke.</span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt">I’ll leave it to you, Bob and Dave to improve on this. I’m sure Tutelo doesn’t conjugate in exactly the same way as Biloxi! :-)</span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt">Thank you for sharing your ideas and research with the list. Perhaps you will be the one to write that comprehensive but readable work on Tutelo-Saponi someday, or perhaps someone
else will because of your persistent interest. It is that constant desire to know and understand that heritage, especially on the part of people who have it as part of their background, that will keep the momentum going to preserve and recover it. Good luck
in all your work!</span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt">All the best,</span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt">Rory</span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="color:#1f497d; font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<div></div>
<div style="border-bottom:medium none; border-left:medium none; padding-bottom:0in; padding-left:0in; padding-right:0in; border-top:#b5c4df 1pt solid; border-right:medium none; padding-top:3pt">
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><b><span style="font-size:10pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt"> Siouan Linguistics [<a href="http://us.mc1814.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Scott Collins<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, May 25, 2013 8:07 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="http://us.mc1814.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">
SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi</span></p>
</div>
<div></div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"> </p>
<div></div>
<table class="yiv147912406MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td style="padding-bottom:0in; padding-left:0in; padding-right:0in; padding-top:0in" valign="top">
<table class="yiv147912406MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td style="padding-bottom:0in; padding-left:0in; padding-right:0in; padding-top:0in">
<div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">Here is what Meuse had for -i :</span></p>
</div>
<div></div>
<div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="font-size:10pt"><br>
<b> </b></span></p>
</div>
<div></div>
<div>
<p class="yiv147912406MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10pt">"-i</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt">, articulate state marker, article (definite or indefinite), “a, an, the”. Also
<b>-y</b>. </span></p>
</div>
<div></div>
<div>
<p class="yiv147912406MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">Nominals serving as modifiers are always in the articulate state, and follow the
</span></p>
</div>
<div></div>
<div>
<p class="yiv147912406MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">word being modified, which will be in the construct. Stand-alone nominals can
</span></p>
</div>
<div></div>
<div>
<p class="yiv147912406MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">also be in the articulate, to signify the general article (no real distinction between
</span></p>
</div>
<div></div>
<div>
<p class="yiv147912406MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">indefinite / definite articles.) Spelling “-y” following some vowels is purely
</span></p>
</div>
<div></div>
<div>
<p class="yiv147912406MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">aesthetic, and is interchangeable with -i. However, if the final syllable of the
</span></p>
</div>
<div></div>
<div>
<p class="yiv147912406MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">construct includes a strong nasal and/or glottal quality (generally indicated by
</span></p>
</div>
<div></div>
<div>
<p class="yiv147912406MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">final -n, -n’, or -q), the corresponding articulate will end in a ‘broken’ dipthong
</span></p>
</div>
<div></div>
<div>
<p class="yiv147912406MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">similarly incorporating the nasal and/or glottal, in slightly weaker form. This
</span></p>
</div>
<div></div>
<div>
<p class="yiv147912406MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">sound can be inserted by the speaker at any point within the ‘broken dipthong’;
</span></p>
</div>
<div></div>
<div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">exactly where would be difficult to discern in rapid pronunciation." ---Meuse, Yesnechi, pg. 18.</span></p>
</div>
<div></div>
<div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="font-size:10pt"> </span></p>
</div>
<div></div>
<div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">Also see Oliverio, pg. 202 for -i and i- usages.</span></p>
</div>
<div></div>
<div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="font-size:10pt"> </span></p>
</div>
<div></div>
<div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">The word "the" is a definite article correct?</span></p>
</div>
<div></div>
<div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="font-size:10pt"> </span></p>
</div>
<div></div>
<div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">Oliverio, pg.323 the word love as yato-ste:kE</span></p>
</div>
<div></div>
<div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">Meuse, pg 71, the word love as Yandosteka</span></p>
</div>
<div></div>
<div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="font-size:10pt"> </span></p>
</div>
<div></div>
<div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="font-size:10pt"> </span></p>
</div>
<div></div>
<div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">Here is one link that has some information on sweetgrass ranges:
<a href="http://www.ecoseeds.com/sweetgrassinfo.html#anchor504328" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">
http://www.ecoseeds.com/sweetgrassinfo.html#anchor504328</a></span></p>
</div>
<div></div>
<div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="font-size:10pt"> </span></p>
</div>
<div></div>
<div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">However, I do not have a source that tells me one way or the other that the Tutelo, Saponi or Occaneechi utilized it or not. I know that I use it at present. Also sense there are other herbs used
as sweetgrass or called sweetgrass I'm sure there was a usage at some piont in the past, but at what level I don't know. I'm not sure any ethnobotanical work has been done in the past that gathered that sort of detail. If there was I would love to read it.</span></p>
</div>
<div></div>
<div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="font-size:10pt"> </span></p>
</div>
<div></div>
<div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">Grass is a word found in Meuse pg. 70, "Grass – Sunktagi"</span></p>
</div>
<div></div>
<div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="font-size:10pt"> </span></p>
</div>
<div></div>
<div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">Grass in Oliverio, pg 319, " grass mukta:ki, oto:, sokta:ki " </span></p>
</div>
<div></div>
<div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="font-size:10pt"> </span></p>
</div>
<div></div>
<div>
<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">I don't think I'm translating from English into Tutelo-Saponi exactly word for word, but I am trying to get as close as possible so that I can have a good translation of what I'm wishing to say in
the language. I'm definitely not a linguist or an English major so alot of help is needed in order to try and utilize my people's language. I use all the availble to me sources/dictionaries on Tutelo-Saponi because none of the individual dictionaries is complete.
Some have words the others left out or were unaware of at the time they published. I do rely heavily on Oliverio's dictionary as well as this list here in order to try and get word formations that aren't in any of the dictionaries; based on the way this list
says Siouan languages form their words. Of this I am very greatful, for without it I would be constantly hitting brickwalls in attempting to utilize the language. </span></p>
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<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="font-size:10pt"> </span></p>
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<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">The usages of -ki also seem to be variant and have various meanings; (see Oliverio, pg.214 for -ki usages). It gets confusing.</span></p>
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<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">My wish is that someone would do a more comprehensive work on Tutelo-Saponi and a work that would be accessable to people like myself as well being a teaching tool for learning the language. The
only extensive interaction I get on the language is here on this list. Not that I haven't tried to get others to join in the discussions on our langauge elsewhere.
</span></p>
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<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="font-size:10pt"> </span></p>
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<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">Again, I want to thank this list and especially Dave and Robert. Your help has been invaluable. Hopefully if I keep at this long enough I may be able to utilize my ancestors language in better way
that is fully correct and truly Siouan as a living language. </span></p>
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<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="font-size:10pt"><br>
Scott P. Collins<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR<br>
<br>
Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle<br>
<br>
“Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.”<br>
<br>
"The greater the denial the greater the awakening."<br>
<br>
--- On <b>Sat, 5/25/13, Rankin, Robert L. <i><<a href="http://us.mc1814.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rankin@KU.EDU" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">rankin@KU.EDU</a>></i></b> wrote:</span></p>
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<p class="yiv147912406msonormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><span style="font-size:10pt"><br>
From: Rankin, Robert L. <<a href="http://us.mc1814.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rankin@KU.EDU" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">rankin@KU.EDU</a>><br>
Subject: Re: Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi<br>
To: <a href="http://us.mc1814.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">
SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu</a><br>
Date: Saturday, May 25, 2013, 3:07 PM</span></p>
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<p class="yiv147912406msonormal2"><span style="color:black">I agree with Willem and Dave that we can’t just translate the English word-for-word into Tutelo-Saponi. The Siouan way of saying ‘I love the smell of sweetgrass’ would not contain an equivalent for
“of”, in fact I’m not at all sure that there is ever much of an equivalent of that preposition in Siouan. I think the way it would be expressed in a Siouan language would be something close to ‘Sweetgrass-smell to.me-it.is.good’. And actually, the words
translated ‘love’ in the literature are a compound of yaⁿt-‘heart’, o- ‘in it’, and steke ‘good’.
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<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="font-size:10pt"> </span></p>
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<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">I’ve never heard of William Meuse, but from his spellings, it looks as though he just copied the Dorsey file from the Smithsonian letter for letter. It’s better to use Oliverio, since she standardized
the spellings, included all earlier research and includes context with examples.
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<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="font-size:10pt"> </span></p>
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<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">I don’t know the range of sweetgrass for certain, but I doubt the Tutelos had it in any quantity and I don’t think it grows that far south. The term for sweetgrass in Dakota-Lakota matches the word
for ‘onion’ in Kansa and Osage. I don’t know which meaning was the original one, though onions are more widespread.
</span></p>
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<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="font-size:10pt"> </span></p>
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<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">The Tutelo word ‘oto:’ just means ‘to be blue or green’. In that sense it probably wouldn’t be used for ‘grass' by itself.. So I don’t know what to do about trying to translate ‘sweetgrass’.
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<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="font-size:10pt"> </span></p>
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<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">I don't think that i- equates to 'the' in any sense, so I'm not sure where that usage is coming from. In the Sapir transcriptions of Tutelo it appears that -ki after the noun is used for 'the',
and since that matches the definite article in Dakotan, I suspect that's as close as we can get in Tutelo.</span></p>
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<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="font-size:10pt"> </span></p>
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<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">Bob </span></p>
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<hr align="center" width="100%" size="2">
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<p class="yiv147912406msonormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><b><span style="color:black; font-size:10pt">From:</span></b><span style="color:black; font-size:10pt"> Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Scott Collins [saponi360@YAHOO.COM]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, May 24, 2013 10:52 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="http://us.mc1814.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">
SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Conjugation Of A Sentence in Tutelo-Saponi</span></p>
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<p class="yiv147912406msonormal" style="margin-bottom:10pt"><span style="color:#333333" lang="EN">Verb at end of sentence</span><span lang="EN">
</span></p>
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<p class="yiv147912406msonormal" style="margin-bottom:10pt"><span style="color:#333333" lang="EN">Adjectives follow nouns</span><span lang="EN">
</span></p>
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<p class="yiv147912406msonormal" style="margin-bottom:10pt"><span style="color:#333333" lang="EN">Adverbs and Direct Objects before the Verb</span><span lang="EN">
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<p class="yiv147912406msonormal" style="margin-bottom:10pt"> </p>
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<p class="yiv147912406msonormal" style="margin-bottom:10pt"><span style="color:#333333" lang="EN">I love the smell of sweetgrass.</span><span lang="EN">
</span></p>
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<p class="yiv147912406msonormal" style="margin-bottom:10pt"> </p>
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<p class="yiv147912406msonormal" style="margin-bottom:10pt"><span style="color:#333333" lang="EN">I = mi (subject/noun)</span><span lang="EN">
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<p class="yiv147912406msonormal" style="margin-bottom:10pt"><span style="color:#333333" lang="EN">Love = yato-ste:kE (verb)</span><span lang="EN">
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<p class="yiv147912406msonormal" style="margin-bottom:10pt"><span style="color:#333333" lang="EN">The = i- (definite article)</span><span lang="EN">
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<p class="yiv147912406msonormal" style="margin-bottom:10pt"><span style="color:#333333" lang="EN">Smell = pi (you can add an infatic such as –se after the word) (adjective)</span><span lang="EN">
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<p class="yiv147912406msonormal" style="margin-bottom:10pt"><span style="color:#333333" lang="EN">Of = qekego (preposition)</span><span lang="EN">
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<p class="yiv147912406msonormal" style="margin-bottom:10pt"><span style="color:#333333" lang="EN">Sweetgrass = chiko:yo oto: (object/noun)</span><span lang="EN">
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<p class="yiv147912406msonormal" style="margin-bottom:10pt"><span style="color:#333333" lang="EN"><br>
<br>
My final conjugation:</span><span lang="EN"> </span></p>
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<p class="yiv147912406msonormal" style="margin-bottom:10pt"><span style="color:#333333" lang="EN">I- pi qekego chiko:yo oto: mi yato-ste:kE. ( I love the smell of sweetgrass.) </span><span lang="EN">
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<p class="yiv147912406msonormal">Is this all correct?</p>
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<p class="yiv147912406msonormal"><br>
<br>
Scott P. Collins<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR<br>
<br>
Evil Is An Outer Manifestation Of An Inner Struggle<br>
<br>
“Men and women become accomplices to those evils they fail to oppose.”<br>
<br>
"The greater the denial the greater the awakening."</p>
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