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Thanks for the help with the vocab., Marianne. Obviously I can't judge the Iroquoianess of the numeral terms, but I agree with Dave that the handwritten original may well have contained ambiguities. I'm quite sure that at least two or three of the Siouan
terms got confused. I mention these in the discussion. Penmanship is at the center of several controversial names in those early documents.
<br>
<br>
Take the name "<i>Steukenocks"</i>, one of the Virginia tribes. There are a variety of spellings, but it's clear that the "<i>eu</i>" diphthong is really
<i>"en"</i>, the regular reflex of nasal */ą / in the Tutelo as transcribed by several linguists. What was interpreted as
<i>"u"</i> was really a cursive <i>"n"</i>. The name is <i>stąk-a-nąk-s</i> 'island on-dwell aspect/mode suffix. And it clearly means 'island dwellers'. And of course several colonial documents mention prominently that the Tutelos, Saponies and Occaneechis
all lived on islands in the river, presumably for protection. There are all kinds of these handwriting puzzles.<br>
<br>
The facsimile of the list in the Alexander publication is pretty clear, but it is a copy of a copy, and I have no way to check the original if it even exists still.<br>
<br>
Bob<br>
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<div style="direction: ltr;" id="divRpF215192"><font color="#000000" face="Tahoma" size="2"><b>From:</b> Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David costa [pankihtamwa@EARTHLINK.NET]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, June 16, 2013 1:24 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: "Saponi" word list.<br>
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<div style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I'm away from my materials for a few days, but I recall that the two probable Iroquoian numbers in the vocabulary weren't as clean a match for any known language as the obviously Algonquian numbers
(all the rest). I wouldn't sweat the vowel discrepancy with 'two', since we don't have the original manuscript to consult and it's entirely possible that the 'o' is a misreading for handwritten 'e'. Either way those two numbers don't match anything in Algonquian
or Siouan.<br>
<br>
Dave C </div>
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<span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; font-weight:bold">From:
</span><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><a href="mailto:mithun@LINGUISTICS.UCSB.EDU" target="_blank">Marianne Mithun</a></span><br>
<span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; font-weight:bold">Sent:
</span><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">6/16/2013 10:47 AM</span><br>
<span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; font-weight:bold">To:
</span><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><a href="mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu" target="_blank">SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu</a></span><br>
<span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; font-weight:bold">Subject:
</span><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Re: "Saponi" word list.</span><br>
<br>
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Hi Bob,<br>
<br>
A quick look doesn't show much. There are no labials (m or p) in Northern <br>
Iroquoian, though nasalized vowels sometimes give that impression.<br>
<br>
The only possibles mentioned by Alexander are 'two' and 'six'. 'Six' might <br>
be possible. The Northern Iroquoian terms appear to be based on the verb <br>
'cross over', what one does when counting on one's fingers, crossing over <br>
to the other hand. 'Two' is a bit more of a long shot: hearing 'tock' for <br>
'tekni'? I'll paste in those Iroquoian numbers here (using apostrophe for <br>
glottal stop) and attach a pdf.<br>
<br>
Marianne<br>
<br>
Iroquoian words for 'two' and 'six'<br>
<br>
'two' (Alexander Tock) <br>
<br>
Mohawk tékeni<br>
Oneida tekni<br>
Onondaga tékni<br>
Cayuga tekhni:<br>
Seneca tekhni:<br>
Susquehannock tiggene<br>
Laurentian tigneny<br>
Huron téni<br>
Wyandot tendi<br>
Tuscarora né:kti:<br>
Nottoway dekanee<br>
Cherokee tha:li<br>
<br>
(Laurentian, the language encountered by Jacques Cartier, is from a French <br>
manuscript source from around 1534, Andaste = Susquehannock from a Swedish <br>
scribe 1696, Huron mainly 17th century French, Nottoway from 19th century. <br>
Wyandot from Barbeau early 20th century. Cherokee from Durbin Feeling)<br>
<br>
<br>
'six' (Alexander Quiock)<br>
<br>
Mohawk yà:ya'k<br>
Oneida yá:ya'k<br>
Onondaga áhya'k<br>
Cayuga hye:i'<br>
Seneca ye:i'<br>
Susquehannock jajáck<br>
Laurentian aiaga 'seven'<br>
Huron houhahéa<br>
Tuscarora úhya'k<br>
Nottoway oyag<br>
Cherokee sudali<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--On Sunday, June 16, 2013 4:12 PM +0000 "Rankin, Robert L." <br>
<rankin@ku.edu> wrote:<br>
<br>
> Marianne,<br>
><br>
> Dave Costa mentioned Iroquoian words in this list. I never spotted<br>
> these. I only mention the presence of Algonquian vocabulary. If you see<br>
> Iroquoian items I'm sure several members of the list would be interested.<br>
> I'll attempt to attach the original list here.<br>
><br>
> Bob<br>
> ________________________________________<br>
> From: Marianne Mithun [mithun@linguistics.ucsb.edu]<br>
> Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2013 11:01 AM<br>
> To: Rankin, Robert L.<br>
> Cc: De Reuse, Willem; David Costa; Granta@EDGEHILL.AC.UK;<br>
> saponi360@YAHOO.COM Subject: RE: "Saponi" word list.<br>
><br>
> Thanks Bob!<br>
><br>
> Marianne<br>
><br>
> --On Sunday, June 16, 2013 3:59 PM +0000 "Rankin, Robert L."<br>
> <rankin@ku.edu> wrote:<br>
><br>
>><br>
>> Dear Colleagues,<br>
>><br>
>> Here it is, typos and all. I spotted a couple of bad ones, but all among<br>
>> the English words so no harm done. Comments are most welcome.<br>
>><br>
>> I remember reading this paper at CAIL. I had acquired a terrible cold<br>
>> and was "high" on cold medication, probably "Contac".. I felt woozy<br>
>> during the entire presentation and wondered if I was going to be able to<br>
>> finish it and answer questions. .<br>
>><br>
>> Enjoy,<br>
>><br>
>> Bob<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
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><br>
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><br>
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