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> any thoughts on this line of reasonings and questions for the Saponi name origins and meanings?<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 10pt"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri"><span style="color:#333333" lang="EN">There is also discussion on the Tutelo word sa:p which Oliverio has on pg.271 meaning flat, level or shallow. sa:p oni: flat/shallow/level/
tree.</span></font></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 10pt">I don't see why there would be anything more than coincidence with 'flat'.<br>
<font size="3"><font face="Calibri"><span style="color:#333333" lang="EN"></span></font></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 10pt"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri"><span style="color:#333333" lang="EN">> It was pionted out to me though it is the wrong word order. Properly put together it would be oni: sa:p for shallow tree. So guess that
wasn't it.</span></font></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 10pt">I'd guess not. There is a basic problem with assuming that tribal names have some identifiable meaning. Most of them simply don't. If they had any original meaning, it's been lost. The words for the Ponca,
Kansa, Osage and Ioway have no identifiable meaning. There are folk analyses and stories, but no solid etymologies. On the other hand, Omaha and Quapaw do evidently have etymologies as 'upstream' and 'downstream' people.<br>
<font size="3"><font face="Calibri"><span style="color:#333333" lang="EN"></span></font></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 10pt"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri"><span style="color:#333333" lang="EN">> Does Saponi mean "Red Earth People"? Acu:ti = Red</span><br id=".reactRoot[6210722].[2]{comment487920651287199_490147101064554}.[1:0].[4:0:1].[3:1].[4:0:1].[1:1].[1:0].[1:0:2].[2:0].[3:0:1]">
<span id=".reactRoot[6210722].[2]{comment487920651287199_490147101064554}.[1:0].[4:0:1].[3:1].[4:0:1].[1:1].[1:0].[1:0:2].[2:0].[3:0:2]">Amą: = Earth</span><br id=".reactRoot[6210722].[2]{comment487920651287199_490147101064554}.[1:0].[4:0:1].[3:1].[4:0:1].[1:1].[1:0].[1:0:2].[2:0].[3:0:3]">
<span id=".reactRoot[6210722].[2]{comment487920651287199_490147101064554}.[1:0].[4:0:1].[3:1].[4:0:1].[1:1].[1:0].[1:0:2].[2:0].[3:0:4]">Yesą = People (alternate for people is Relative – Hadaq, Nedewahe.per Meuse pg. 73; hatak = cousin per Oliverio pg. 191)</span></font></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 10pt"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri"><span id=".reactRoot[6210722].[2]{comment487920651287199_490147101064554}.[1:0].[4:0:1].[3:1].[4:0:1].[1:1].[1:0].[1:0:2].[2:0].[3:0:4]"><font size="3">I'm not sure what you're
driving at here. I don't think there's any evidence for 'red earth people'.</font><br>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 10pt"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri"><span style="color:#333333" lang="EN">> Monasukapanough</span><br id=".reactRoot[6210722].[2]{comment487920651287199_490147194397878}.[1:0].[4:0:1].[3:1].[4:0:1].[1:1].[1:0].[1:0:2].[2:0].[3:0:1]">
<span id=".reactRoot[6210722].[2]{comment487920651287199_490147194397878}.[1:0].[4:0:1].[3:1].[4:0:1].[1:1].[1:0].[1:0:2].[2:0].[3:0:2]">“But the horses were directed to a ford about a mile higher, called by the Indians Moni-seep, which signifies, in their
jargon, shallow-water.”--- William Byrd (1728)</span></font></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 10pt">Yes, that's what moni seep means OK.<br>
<font size="3"><font face="Calibri"><span id=".reactRoot[6210722].[2]{comment487920651287199_490147194397878}.[1:0].[4:0:1].[3:1].[4:0:1].[1:1].[1:0].[1:0:2].[2:0].[3:0:2]"></span></font></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 10pt"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri"><span id=".reactRoot[6210722].[2]{comment487920651287199_490147194397878}.[1:0].[4:0:1].[3:1].[4:0:1].[1:1].[1:0].[1:0:2].[2:0].[3:0:2]"></span><span id=".reactRoot[6210722].[2]{comment487920651287199_490147194397878}.[1:0].[4:0:1].[3:1].[4:0:1].[1:1].[1:0].[1:0:2].[2:0].[3:0:4]">>
Sa:p = Shallow (Oliverio pg.329)</span><br id=".reactRoot[6210722].[2]{comment487920651287199_490147194397878}.[1:0].[4:0:1].[3:1].[4:0:1].[1:1].[1:0].[1:0:2].[2:0].[3:0:5]">
<span id=".reactRoot[6210722].[2]{comment487920651287199_490147194397878}.[1:0].[4:0:1].[3:1].[4:0:1].[1:1].[1:0].[1:0:2].[2:0].[3:0:6]">Mani: = Water</span><br id=".reactRoot[6210722].[2]{comment487920651287199_490147194397878}.[1:0].[4:0:1].[3:1].[4:0:1].[1:1].[1:0].[1:0:2].[2:0].[3:0:7]">
<span id=".reactRoot[6210722].[2]{comment487920651287199_490147194397878}.[1:0].[4:0:1].[3:1].[4:0:1].[1:1].[1:0].[1:0:2].[2:0].[3:0:8]">Mani: sa:p (water shallow) {Moni-seep of William Byrd}</span></font></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 10pt">Yes, those are apparently the same. I don't know what spelling rules Byrd used or the exact value of his letters.<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 10pt"><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"><span id=".reactRoot[6210722].[2]{comment487920651287199_490147194397878}.[1:0].[4:0:1].[3:1].[4:0:1].[1:1].[1:0].[1:0:2].[2:0].[3:0:8]"></span><span id=".reactRoot[6210722].[2]{comment487920651287199_490147194397878}.[1:0].[4:0:1].[3:1].[4:0:1].[1:1].[1:0].[1:0:2].[2:0].[3:0:10]">>
If it is the other way round Sa:p mani: then it’s a possible; but I tried that with oni: sa:p (tree shallow) but forgot the order and made it sa:p oni: . Is the answer somewhere among the various spellings of Saponi such as:</span><br id=".reactRoot[6210722].[2]{comment487920651287199_490147194397878}.[1:0].[4:0:1].[3:1].[4:0:1].[1:1].[1:0].[1:0:2].[2:0].[3:0:11]">
<span id=".reactRoot[6210722].[2]{comment487920651287199_490147194397878}.[1:0].[4:0:1].[3:1].[4:0:1].[1:1].[1:0].[1:0:2].[2:0].[3:0:12]">Paanese (for Sa-paahese).-Albany treaty (1789) in Hale, N. W. States, 1849, p. 70. Saps.-Lawson (1714), History of Carolina,
1860, p. 89.</span><br id=".reactRoot[6210722].[2]{comment487920651287199_490147194397878}.[1:0].[4:0:1].[3:1].[4:0:1].[1:1].[1:0].[1:0:2].[2:0].[3:0:13]">
<span id=".reactRoot[6210722].[2]{comment487920651287199_490147194397878}.[1:0].[4:0:1].[3:1].[4:0:1].[1:1].[1:0].[1:0:2].[2:0].[3:0:14]">Sapan.-Lederer, Discoveries, 1672, map.</span><br id=".reactRoot[6210722].[2]{comment487920651287199_490147194397878}.[1:0].[4:0:1].[3:1].[4:0:1].[1:1].[1:0].[1:0:2].[2:0].[3:0:15]">
<span id=".reactRoot[6210722].[2]{comment487920651287199_490147194397878}.[1:0].[4:0:1].[3:1].[4:0:1].[1:1].[1:0].[1:0:2].[2:0].[3:0:16]">Sapon.-Ibid., p. 2.</span><br id=".reactRoot[6210722].[2]{comment487920651287199_490147194397878}.[1:0].[4:0:1].[3:1].[4:0:1].[1:1].[1:0].[1:0:2].[2:0].[3:0:17]">
<span id=".reactRoot[6210722].[2]{comment487920651287199_490147194397878}.[1:0].[4:0:1].[3:1].[4:0:1].[1:1].[1:0].[1:0:2].[2:0].[3:0:18]">Saponas.-Lawson, op. cit., p. 83.</span><br id=".reactRoot[6210722].[2]{comment487920651287199_490147194397878}.[1:0].[4:0:1].[3:1].[4:0:1].[1:1].[1:0].[1:0:2].[2:0].[3:0:19]">
<span id=".reactRoot[6210722].[2]{comment487920651287199_490147194397878}.[1:0].[4:0:1].[3:1].[4:0:1].[1:1].[1:0].[1:0:2].[2:0].[3:0:20]">Sapones.-Drake, Book of the Indians, 1848, p. xii.</span><br id=".reactRoot[6210722].[2]{comment487920651287199_490147194397878}.[1:0].[4:0:1].[3:1].[4:0:1].[1:1].[1:0].[1:0:2].[2:0].[3:0:21]">
<span id=".reactRoot[6210722].[2]{comment487920651287199_490147194397878}.[1:0].[4:0:1].[3:1].[4:0:1].[1:1].[1:0].[1:0:2].[2:0].[3:0:22]">Sapongs.-Batts (1671) in N. Y. Doc. Col. Hist., vol, iii, p. 194 (misprint, g for y).</span><br id=".reactRoot[6210722].[2]{comment487920651287199_490147194397878}.[1:0].[4:0:1].[3:1].[4:0:1].[1:1].[1:0].[1:0:2].[2:0].[3:0:23]">
<span id=".reactRoot[6210722].[2]{comment487920651287199_490147194397878}.[1:0].[4:0:1].[3:1].[4:0:1].[1:1].[1:0].[1:0:2].[2:0].[3:0:24]">Saponeys.-Johnson (1763), ibid., vol. vii, p. 582.</span><br id=".reactRoot[6210722].[2]{comment487920651287199_490147194397878}.[1:0].[4:0:1].[3:1].[4:0:1].[1:1].[1:0].[1:0:2].[2:0].[3:0:25]">
<span id=".reactRoot[6210722].[2]{comment487920651287199_490147194397878}.[1:0].[4:0:1].[3:1].[4:0:1].[1:1].[1:0].[1:0:2].[2:0].[3:0:26]">Saponees.-Knight (1712) in N. C. Records, vol. i, p. 866.
</span><br id=".reactRoot[6210722].[2]{comment487920651287199_490147194397878}.[1:0].[4:0:1].[3:1].[4:0:1].[1:1].[1:0].[1:0:2].[2:0].[3:0:27]">
<span id=".reactRoot[6210722].[2]{comment487920651287199_490147194397878}.[1:0].[4:0:1].[3:1].[4:0:1].[1:1].[1:0].[1:0:2].[2:0].[3:0:28]">Saponi.-Byrd (1728), Hint. Dividing Line, vol. i, p. 75.
</span><br id=".reactRoot[6210722].[2]{comment487920651287199_490147194397878}.[1:0].[4:0:1].[3:1].[4:0:1].[1:1].[1:0].[1:0:2].[2:0].[3:0:29]">
<span id=".reactRoot[6210722].[2]{comment487920651287199_490147194397878}.[1:0].[4:0:1].[3:1].[4:0:1].[1:1].[1:0].[1:0:2].[2:0].[3:0:30]">Saponie.-Document of 1711 in N. C. Records, vol. i, p. 808.</span><br id=".reactRoot[6210722].[2]{comment487920651287199_490147194397878}.[1:0].[4:0:1].[3:1].[4:0:1].[1:1].[1:0].[1:0:2].[2:0].[3:0:31]">
<span id=".reactRoot[6210722].[2]{comment487920651287199_490147194397878}.[1:0].[4:0:1].[3:1].[4:0:1].[1:1].[1:0].[1:0:2].[2:0].[3:0:32]">Saponys.-Document of 1728 in Colonial Virginia State Papers, 1875, vol. i, p. 215.
</span><br id=".reactRoot[6210722].[2]{comment487920651287199_490147194397878}.[1:0].[4:0:1].[3:1].[4:0:1].[1:1].[1:0].[1:0:2].[2:0].[3:0:33]">
<span id=".reactRoot[6210722].[2]{comment487920651287199_490147194397878}.[1:0].[4:0:1].[3:1].[4:0:1].[1:1].[1:0].[1:0:2].[2:0].[3:0:34]">Sapoones.-Croghan (1765) in Monthly American Journal of Geology, 1831, p. 271.
</span><br id=".reactRoot[6210722].[2]{comment487920651287199_490147194397878}.[1:0].[4:0:1].[3:1].[4:0:1].[1:1].[1:0].[1:0:2].[2:0].[3:0:35]">
<span id=".reactRoot[6210722].[2]{comment487920651287199_490147194397878}.[1:0].[4:0:1].[3:1].[4:0:1].[1:1].[1:0].[1:0:2].[2:0].[3:0:36]">Sapoonies.-Hutchins (1768) in Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1787, p. 169.
</span><br id=".reactRoot[6210722].[2]{comment487920651287199_490147194397878}.[1:0].[4:0:1].[3:1].[4:0:1].[1:1].[1:0].[1:0:2].[2:0].[3:0:37]">
<span id=".reactRoot[6210722].[2]{comment487920651287199_490147194397878}.[1:0].[4:0:1].[3:1].[4:0:1].[1:1].[1:0].[1:0:2].[2:0].[3:0:38]">Sappona.-Pollock (1712) in N. C. Records, vol. i, p. 884.</span><br id=".reactRoot[6210722].[2]{comment487920651287199_490147194397878}.[1:0].[4:0:1].[3:1].[4:0:1].[1:1].[1:0].[1:0:2].[2:0].[3:0:39]">
<span id=".reactRoot[6210722].[2]{comment487920651287199_490147194397878}.[1:0].[4:0:1].[3:1].[4:0:1].[1:1].[1:0].[1:0:2].[2:0].[3:0:40]">Sapponces:-Albany Conference (1717) in N. Y. Documentary Colonial History, vol. v, p. 490 (misprint, c for e).</span><br id=".reactRoot[6210722].[2]{comment487920651287199_490147194397878}.[1:0].[4:0:1].[3:1].[4:0:1].[1:1].[1:0].[1:0:2].[2:0].[3:0:41]">
<span id=".reactRoot[6210722].[2]{comment487920651287199_490147194397878}.[1:0].[4:0:1].[3:1].[4:0:1].[1:1].[1:0].[1:0:2].[2:0].[3:0:42]">Sapponees.-N. C. Council (1727) in N. C. Records, vol. ii, p. 674.
</span><br id=".reactRoot[6210722].[2]{comment487920651287199_490147194397878}.[1:0].[4:0:1].[3:1].[4:0:1].[1:1].[1:0].[1:0:2].[2:0].[3:0:43]">
<span id=".reactRoot[6210722].[2]{comment487920651287199_490147194397878}.[1:0].[4:0:1].[3:1].[4:0:1].[1:1].[1:0].[1:0:2].[2:0].[3:0:44]">Sapponeys.-Document of 1709 in Colonial Virginia State Papers, 1875, vol. i, p. 131.
</span><br id=".reactRoot[6210722].[2]{comment487920651287199_490147194397878}.[1:0].[4:0:1].[3:1].[4:0:1].[1:1].[1:0].[1:0:2].[2:0].[3:0:45]">
<span id=".reactRoot[6210722].[2]{comment487920651287199_490147194397878}.[1:0].[4:0:1].[3:1].[4:0:1].[1:1].[1:0].[1:0:2].[2:0].[3:0:46]">Sapponie.-N. C. Council (1726) in N. C. Records, vol. ii, p. 643.</span><br id=".reactRoot[6210722].[2]{comment487920651287199_490147194397878}.[1:0].[4:0:1].[3:1].[4:0:1].[1:1].[1:0].[1:0:2].[2:0].[3:0:47]">
<span id=".reactRoot[6210722].[2]{comment487920651287199_490147194397878}.[1:0].[4:0:1].[3:1].[4:0:1].[1:1].[1:0].[1:0:2].[2:0].[3:0:48]">Sapponnee.-Albany Conference (1717) in N. Y. Doc. Col. Hist., vol. v., p. 490.
</span><br id=".reactRoot[6210722].[2]{comment487920651287199_490147194397878}.[1:0].[4:0:1].[3:1].[4:0:1].[1:1].[1:0].[1:0:2].[2:0].[3:0:49]">
<span style="color:#333333" lang="EN">Sappony.-N. C. Council (1727) in N. C. Records, vol. ii, p. 674.</span></font></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 10pt"><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"><span style="color:#333333" lang="EN"><font size="3">All these are attempts by
<font size="3">Europeans and White Americans to write down Indian words that contained sounds and sequences of sounds that were unfamiliar to them.
</font></font><br>
</span></font></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 10pt"><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"><span style="color:#333333" lang="EN">I've also seen Sapinney.</span></font></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 10pt"><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"><span style="color:#333333" lang="EN">> Paanese (for Sa-paahese), what would the aahese be?</span></font></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 10pt"><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"><span style="color:#333333" lang="EN"><font size="3">No way to
<font size="3">know.</font></font><br>
</span></font></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 10pt"><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"><span style="color:#333333" lang="EN">Although Swanton states that Paanese is not connected to the word Pawnee, Pani and Panis is a direct corruption of Pawnee as shown in
Robert W. Venable’s explanation concerning the Indian slave trade and the accompanying trade jargon. ---“American Indian History: Five Centuries of Conflict and Coexistence”, Vol. I Conquest of a Continent, 1492 – 1783, by Robert W. Venables Pg.206</span></font></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 10pt"><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"><span style="color:#333333" lang="EN"><font size="3">Actually, it's the spelling
<font size="3">Pawnee that is an attempt to render the syllables pa<font size="3">-ni. A<font size="3">s far as<font size="3"> I know there is no specific evidence that the
<font size="3">Pawnees were ever east of the Mississippi<font size="3">. </font>
</font></font></font></font></font></font><br>
</span></font></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 10pt"><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"><span style="color:#333333" lang="EN">"...in which it is stated that the "Paanese" (Sa-poonese)..."---Hale also found in Hall, James (?). Early History of the Northwestern
States, p. 70. Buffalo and Auburn, 1849.</span></font></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 10pt"><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"><span style="color:#333333" lang="EN">> Would that be Sa:p oni:-se? If the word order is wrong is it possible that there is something being missed in certain instances regarding
compound nouns that is different under certain situations in Saponi than for other Siouan languages? Or is it more probable that by the time Hale went to record these things that the informants had already taken on Iroquois language rules? I don't know what
the language rules are for Iroquois/Cayuga/Seneca.</span></font></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 10pt"><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"><span style="color:#333333" lang="EN"><font size="3">Those are reasonable questions. Certainly there are no Siouan languages in which descriptive modifiers precede the noun.
I doubt that Iroquois influence <font size="3">was</font> that great at the time Hale did his work, but I can't say for sure.
</font><br>
</span></font></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 10pt"><font size="3"><span style="color:#333333" lang="EN"><font face="Calibri">> Sapan (pronounced [</font></span><span style="font-family:'Arial','sans-serif'; color:#333333" lang="EN">ˈ</span><span style="color:#333333" lang="EN"><font face="Calibri">sa</font></span><span style="font-family:'Arial','sans-serif'; color:#333333" lang="EN">ː</span><span style="color:#333333" lang="EN"><font face="Calibri">p</font></span><span style="font-family:'Arial','sans-serif'; color:#333333" lang="EN">ːʌ</span><font face="Calibri"><span style="color:#333333" lang="EN">n]),[13]
cornmeal mush, a staple of Lenape cuisine; "sapàn". Lenape Talking Dictionary. Retrieved June 26, 2011</span>
</font></font><span style="color:#333333" lang="EN"><font face="Calibri" size="3">Interestingly the word in Algonquin for boiled Indian meal is Supawn or Sa-pon and translates into “softened by water”. See, “Handbook of American Indians North of Mexico”, by
Frederick Webb Hodge Pg.652.</font></span></p>
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I don't know that it would have anything to do with the Siouan name though. I wish I had answers for you.<br>
<br>
Bob<br>
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