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<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=4 face="Times New Roman">It is the same
name. The early English translation was "Brittish" but later on, on the
enrollments, it is rendered as "English." I believe the name then died
out. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt Tahoma">
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=sky@OMTRIBE.ORG
href="mailto:sky@OMTRIBE.ORG">Campbell, Sky</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, August 21, 2013 4:09 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu
href="mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu">SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: Looking for help with "Sanganasch"</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=WordSection1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">Rory,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">Yes, I’ve checked his spellings
versus modern pronunciations and his “s” does in fact seem to be an “s” and he
seems to use “sch” for “sh”. His German perspective means he was very good
about pointing out that his “ch” spellings were “guttural as German” (which
today we use the “x” for that). Many sources (Hamilton, Merrill, etc.) use
the “h” for that but don’t distinguish the regular “h” from what should be the
“x”.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">This may also be of
interest. I was going through the 1860 Nemaha Half-Breed Reservation list
and I saw the name “Lag-gar-ash” with no translation. This looks like the
same term. The names on this list look to be (according to Rev. Isaac
McCoy) Otoe, Ioway, Omaha, and Sioux.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; COLOR: #1f497d">Sky
Campbell, B. A.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">Language
Director<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">Otoe-Missouria
Tribe<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">580-723-4466 ext.
111<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: #1f497d">sky@omtribe.org<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> Siouan Linguistics
[mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Rory Larson<BR><B>Sent:</B>
Wednesday, August 21, 2013 11:41 AM<BR><B>To:</B>
SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: Looking for help with
"Sanganasch"<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">Bob, I’m wondering if the
difference between the “S” and “L” versions of this ethnonym could reflect the
difference between French singular and plural? The plural form was “les
anglois”, in which a marked sibilant before the initial a- led to the Sanganash
term. But the singular wouldn’t have had that. In modern French, at
least, it would be “l’anglais”, which might be a more plausible precursor to
“Lagerash” or ra-kra-she. Since the recipient languages either don’t mark
singular and plural, or do it in a completely different way, it would be
indifferent to them which form they adopted.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">Also, do we have any of these
terms in use in the modern languages to check Native pronunciation? Since
Maximilian was German, he used ‘sch’ at the end to represent /š/. I wonder
what pronunciation value was intended by the initial ‘s-’? In modern
German, initial ‘s-’ followed by a vowel is generally pronounced /z/.
Should this term be rendered sąganaš or ząganaš? Sky, you might have
answered this question already when you said “</SPAN>Based on Maximilian’s
spelling for sound, it could roughly be said as “sahng-gah-nash”<SPAN
style="COLOR: #1f497d">”, but can you confirm that Maximilian’s initial s +
vowel was actually pronounced /s/ in words that can be confirmed in the modern
language? An initial /z/ should match the French pronunciation better, but
it might not matter if it was a borrowing from another Native language like
Ojibwe.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">Regards,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">Rory<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> Siouan Linguistics
[<A href="mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu">mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Rankin, Robert L.<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 20, 2013
2:34 PM<BR><B>To:</B> <A
href="mailto:SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU">SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU</A><BR><B>Subject:</B>
Re: Looking for help with "Sanganasch"<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black">Hi
Sky,<BR><BR>I think the published analysis of Sanganash is probably
accurate. It would have come from the pronunciation of "les anglois"
that was current in the 17th century in French North America. The initial
"S" is what's left of "les". In some native languages it's the "L" that
gets kept, and the word comes out something closer to "Lagerash". The
remainder of the name has approximately the following correspondences:<BR>
</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; COLOR: black"><BR> s
a n g a n a sh<BR>les a n g l wa s
or<BR>les a n g l we s<BR><BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black">The
problem is that the word was passed from language to language, getting more and
more confused and messed up at each step. Most of the languages didn't
take the term directly from French.<BR><BR>Bob</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
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</SPAN></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; COLOR: black">This
is my first email to this list so I’ll introduce myself. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">My name is Sky Campbell and I am
the Language Director for the Otoe-Missouria tribe. I’ve been here just
over four years now and we’ve come a long way in our understanding of the
language, gathering historical information, and recording tribal
members.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">I am currently wrestling with the
term “Sanganasch” which is from Maximilian’s word list (via Thwaites).
Maximilian translates it as “Englishman.” Page 109 of the <I>Handbook of
North American Indians, Vol. 13</I>, says it is “ultimately from older French
<I>(le)s anglois</I> ‘the English’.” I’ve attached this page to this email
but I don’t know how this list will treat attachments. This page also
lists variations from other tribes such as “sagdášį” and “sagdášį”
(Santee-Sisseton), “šagláša” (Teton), “Ságanasch” (Omaha),
etc.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Based on Maximilian’s spelling for
sound, it could roughly be said as “sahng-gah-nash.”<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">No matter how I try, I can’t see
any real similarities between “(le)s anglois” and “Sanganasch” in my mind.
I can (just!) see “(le)<U>s ang</U>lois” in “<U>Sang</U>anasch” (underlined
parts).<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">So I spoke with a friend of mine
who lives in France. He was originally from here but has lived there over
20 years now. He also couldn’t see how “(le)s anglois” could be shoehorned
into “Sanganasch.” Since he is fluent in French I asked for his take and
he did mention what he thought it might be and that was “sale ganache” which he
said is a sort of slang for dirty face, ugly face, detestable, untrustworthy,
and several more unflattering terms. He said the “ganache” was (aside from
the dessert!) something along the lines of a lower jaw of a 4-legged animal.
But he noted the lack of an “L” in the term and I told him from an
Otoe-Missouria perspective, there isn’t an “L” (as in Larry) sound really but
the rolling “r” sort of covers that area and that it might be possible that it
was just skipped or contracted over time. He also mentioned “sang” (blood)
as well.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">I have no idea how accurate this
term could be. But if it is, it would be very funny to have the French
somewhat badmouthing their English (and maybe Spanish) competitors by giving the
tribes a less than favorable translation for them. But for this to be
true, this “slang” would have to have been in use almost 200 years ago and I
have no idea if it was. Plus it looks like its use would have had to have
been pretty wide-spread since other tribes had a similar
term.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">So that is what I am looking
at. Any feedback, any avenues to check out, any sources, etc. would be
greatly appreciated. If this is some form of “(le)s anglois”, I’d just
like to know how. Or if anyone can tell me if I am getting
close.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Also, if it helps, James Owen
Dorsey had the term “ra-kra-she” for “Englishman.”<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; COLOR: black">Sky Campbell,
B. A.</SPAN></B><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Language
Director<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Otoe-Missouria
Tribe<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">580-723-4466 ext.
111<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><A
href="mailto:sky@omtribe.org">sky@omtribe.org</A><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; COLOR: black"><BR> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR> </BODY></HTML>