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Thanks George, I remember seeing that while driving around that area during the conference a couple of years ago.<br>
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Bob<br>
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<div style="direction: ltr;" id="divRpF248495"><font color="#000000" face="Tahoma" size="2"><b>From:</b> Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of George Wilmes [george.wilmes@gmail.com]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, August 21, 2013 4:18 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Looking for help with "Sanganasch"<br>
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<div dir="ltr">fyi, the Chicago neighborhood just north and west of NEIU is called Sauganash. Its website, linked below, says:
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<div>"The property was named 'Sauganash' to commemorate Chief Sauganash, who played an important role in molding the early history of Chicago. Chief Sauganash, also known as Billy Caldwell, devoted his life's work to maintaining peace between the Native Americans
and the settlers."</div>
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<div><a href="http://www.sauganash.org/histbound.htm" target="_blank">http://www.sauganash.org/histbound.htm</a><br>
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<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Rory Larson <span dir="ltr">
<<a href="mailto:rlarson1@unl.edu" target="_blank">rlarson1@unl.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">Bob, I’m wondering if the difference between the “S” and “L” versions of this ethnonym could reflect the difference between French singular and plural? The plural form was “les anglois”, in which a marked sibilant
before the initial a- led to the Sanganash term. But the singular wouldn’t have had that. In modern French, at least, it would be “l’anglais”, which might be a more plausible precursor to “Lagerash” or ra-kra-she. Since the recipient languages either don’t
mark singular and plural, or do it in a completely different way, it would be indifferent to them which form they adopted.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">Also, do we have any of these terms in use in the modern languages to check Native pronunciation? Since Maximilian was German, he used ‘sch’ at the end to represent /š/. I wonder what pronunciation value was
intended by the initial ‘s-’? In modern German, initial ‘s-’ followed by a vowel is generally pronounced /z/. Should this term be rendered sąganaš or ząganaš? Sky, you might have answered this question already when you said “</span>Based on Maximilian’s
spelling for sound, it could roughly be said as “sahng-gah-nash”<span style="color:#1f497d">”, but can you confirm that Maximilian’s initial s + vowel was actually pronounced /s/ in words that can be confirmed in the modern language? An initial /z/ should
match the French pronunciation better, but it might not matter if it was a borrowing from another Native language like Ojibwe.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">Rory<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Siouan Linguistics [mailto:<a href="mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu" target="_blank">SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Rankin, Robert L.<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, August 20, 2013 2:34 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU" target="_blank">SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU</a></span></p>
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<b>Subject:</b> Re: Looking for help with "Sanganasch"<u></u><u></u></div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt; font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Hi Sky,</span></p>
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I think the published analysis of Sanganash is probably accurate. It would have come from the pronunciation of "les anglois" that was current in the 17th century in French North America. The initial "S" is what's left of "les". In some native languages
it's the "L" that gets kept, and the word comes out something closer to "Lagerash". The remainder of the name has approximately the following correspondences:<br>
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<div class="h5"> s a n g a n a sh<br>
les a n g l wa s or<br>
les a n g l we s<br>
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<div class="h5"><span style="font-size:13.5pt; font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">The problem is that the word was passed from language to language, getting more and more confused and messed up at each step. Most of the languages didn't take the term directly
from French.<br>
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Bob</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman","serif""><u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">This is my first email to this list so I’ll introduce myself.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="">My name is Sky Campbell and I am the Language Director for the Otoe-Missouria tribe. I’ve been here just over four years now and we’ve come a long way in our understanding of the language, gathering historical information,
and recording tribal members.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style=""> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="">I am currently wrestling with the term “Sanganasch” which is from Maximilian’s word list (via Thwaites). Maximilian translates it as “Englishman.” Page 109 of the
<i>Handbook of North American Indians, Vol. 13</i>, says it is “ultimately from older French
<i>(le)s anglois</i> ‘the English’.” I’ve attached this page to this email but I don’t know how this list will treat attachments. This page also lists variations from other tribes such as “sagdášį” and “sagdášį” (Santee-Sisseton), “šagláša” (Teton), “Ságanasch”
(Omaha), etc.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="">Based on Maximilian’s spelling for sound, it could roughly be said as “sahng-gah-nash.”<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style=""> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="">No matter how I try, I can’t see any real similarities between “(le)s anglois” and “Sanganasch” in my mind. I can (just!) see “(le)<u>s ang</u>lois” in “<u>Sang</u>anasch” (underlined parts).<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style=""> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="">So I spoke with a friend of mine who lives in France. He was originally from here but has lived there over 20 years now. He also couldn’t see how “(le)s anglois” could be shoehorned into “Sanganasch.” Since he is fluent
in French I asked for his take and he did mention what he thought it might be and that was “sale ganache” which he said is a sort of slang for dirty face, ugly face, detestable, untrustworthy, and several more unflattering terms. He said the “ganache” was
(aside from the dessert!) something along the lines of a lower jaw of a 4-legged animal. But he noted the lack of an “L” in the term and I told him from an Otoe-Missouria perspective, there isn’t an “L” (as in Larry) sound really but the rolling “r” sort
of covers that area and that it might be possible that it was just skipped or contracted over time. He also mentioned “sang” (blood) as well.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style=""> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="">I have no idea how accurate this term could be. But if it is, it would be very funny to have the French somewhat badmouthing their English (and maybe Spanish) competitors by giving the tribes a less than favorable translation
for them. But for this to be true, this “slang” would have to have been in use almost 200 years ago and I have no idea if it was. Plus it looks like its use would have had to have been pretty wide-spread since other tribes had a similar term.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style=""> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="">So that is what I am looking at. Any feedback, any avenues to check out, any sources, etc. would be greatly appreciated. If this is some form of “(le)s anglois”, I’d just like to know how. Or if anyone can tell me if I
am getting close.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style=""> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="">Also, if it helps, James Owen Dorsey had the term “ra-kra-she” for “Englishman.”<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style=""> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:14.0pt">Sky Campbell, B. A.</span></b><span style=""><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="">Language Director<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="">Otoe-Missouria Tribe<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style=""><a href="tel:580-723-4466%20ext.%20111" value="+15807234466" target="_blank">580-723-4466 ext. 111</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style=""><a href="mailto:sky@omtribe.org" target="_blank">sky@omtribe.org</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style=""> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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