<html><head><base href="x-msg://216/"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 15px;">Bob, I know you and John probably told me about this 20 years ago, but which Siouan language is <i>mitákopa</i> from? That one's pretty blatant, since it's all over Algonquian and it has a clear etymology ("wood string") in that family.</span><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 15px;"><br></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 15px;">I suspect that "nine" word is ultimately borrowed from Algonquian into Siouan (and not the other way around), but its etymology isn't totally clean in Algonquian, either. Rich and I took a stab at that one in our paper for the Frank Siebert festscrift. Also, wasn't Ojibwe <i>ogichidaa </i>'warrior' borrowed into Dakotan? </span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 15px;"><br></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 15px;">This is the first I've heard that Hochunk <i>ní </i>for first person is from Algonquian -- what would the word be expected to be in Hochunk, based on Chiwere and Proto-Siouan?</span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 15px;"><br></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 15px;">Dave</span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 15px;"><br></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 15px;"><br></span></div><div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 15px;"><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></span><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 15px;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div ocsi="0" fpstyle="1" style="word-wrap: break-word; "><div style="direction: ltr; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; "><span style="font-family: Arial; ">I have to admit that I’m very skeptical of 5 syllable long “coincidences”, so it seems to me more likely that ‘mirror’ is a loanword from either French or English that may have been reanalyzed in terms of the vertitive given in the new dictionary.<span> </span></span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; "><span style="font-family: Arial; "> </span></p><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; "><span style="font-family: Arial; ">Be that as it may, though, the study of loanwords in Native languages is just beginning.<span> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>Most of the linguists who converted to Americanist interests have tended to “dabble” in the various languages.<span> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>It’s understandable that we have concentrated on basic phonology, morphology and syntax, but it takes more than that to uncover borrowings.<span> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>A lot of them are quite old and often have a native “look” to them.</span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; "><span style="font-family: Arial; "> </span></p><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 36pt; text-indent: -36pt; "><i><span style="font-family: Arial; ">mitákopa, mąčgú,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></i><span style="font-family: Arial; ">etc. ‘bow’, as in ‘bow-and-arrow’, is a loan.<span> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>John Koontz has written about these.</span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 36pt; text-indent: -36pt; "><span style="font-family: Arial; ">Tobacco terms are widely borrowed.</span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 36pt; text-indent: -36pt; "><i><span style="font-family: Arial; ">wagmų́za, wadwą́, wičawą́,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></i><span style="font-family: Arial; ">etc. ‘squash, pumpkin’ is a loan.</span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 36pt; text-indent: -36pt; "><i><span style="font-family: Arial; ">wagmiza, wamnáheza,</span></i><span style="font-family: Arial; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>etc. ‘corn’ are loan adaptations, based on ‘squash’.</span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 36pt; text-indent: -36pt; "><i><span style="font-family: Arial; ">hǫmnį́ke, hǫblį́ge,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></i><span style="font-family: Arial; ">etc. ‘beans’ is a loan.<span> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>I covered these in the<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>Histories of Maize</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>anthology.</span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 36pt; text-indent: -36pt; "><span style="font-family: Arial; ">All the various ‘long knives’ and ‘fire water’ terms are loans or loan-translations.<span> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>Goddard has written about these and others.</span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 36pt; text-indent: -36pt; "><span style="font-family: Arial; ">All the<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>saganaš, šągláša, sáznak,</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>etc. terms are loans, as we know.</span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 36pt; text-indent: -36pt; "><span style="font-family: Arial; ">All the Dhegiha<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>gðą́•ðe, lą́•ðe, lą́•ye</i>, etc. terms for ‘big’ are loans from Spanish<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>grande</i>.<span> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>Pointed out by Quintero, Rankin and others.</span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 36pt; text-indent: -36pt; "><span style="font-family: Arial; ">The various<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>kkáwa, kkawáye</i>, etc. ‘horse’ terms are loans from Spanish.</span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 36pt; text-indent: -36pt; "><i><span style="font-family: Arial; ">othų́we, ttą́mą, htą́wą,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></i><span style="font-family: Arial; ">etc. ‘town, band, settlement, etc.’ are probably loans.<span> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>My paper on<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>Tomahitan</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>deals with this.<span> </span></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 36pt; text-indent: -36pt; "><i><span style="font-family: Arial; ">šą́kka</span></i><span style="font-family: Arial; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>‘nine’ is a loan either from Siouan to Algonquian or the other way around.</span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 36pt; text-indent: -36pt; "><span style="font-family: Arial; ">There are numerous names of wild animals that are widespread among North American language families.<span> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>Michael Nichols has written about these.<span> </span></span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; "><span style="font-family: Arial; "> </span></p><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; "><span style="font-family: Arial; ">There are loans all over the place in Native languages, but unless you happen to know all the nearby languages, they don’t jump out at you like they do with European languages.<span> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>If you want to really get into the study of loans in Siouan, you should start with words that contain apparent reflexes of the long list of non-Siouan consonant clusters.<span> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>In Lakota start with<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>gm, gw</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>clusters, as in ‘trap’ for example.<span> </span>You might expect to find Algonquian<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>kw</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>clusters as sources for these.<span> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>Other Dakotan clusters that seem to have peculiar combinations (that seem to be lacking in, say, Dhegiha) include<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>sw, sm, šw, šm</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>sorts of things.<span> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>I don’t even know if they are native or not.</span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; "><span style="font-family: Arial; "> </span></p><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; "><span style="font-family: Arial; ">In Chiwere<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>dw</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>clusters are similarly suspect.<span> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>And, as you know, these will turn up in Hochunk with a Dorsey’s Law vowel.<span> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>The CSD is a pretty fair starting place.</span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; "><span style="font-family: Arial; "> </span></p><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; "><span style="font-family: Arial; ">You can’t necessarily expect contact to be shown by loanwords however.<span> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>As Willem points out, some Native languages seem to resist direct lexical borrowing.<span> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>I personally don’t know whether this is literally true or whether it just looks that way because we, as individual linguists, haven’t had experience with enough of the different languages in a given area.<span> </span></span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; "><span style="font-family: Arial; "> </span></p><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; "><span style="font-family: Arial; ">Hochunk is suspicious simply because it is surrounded by Algonquian, again as Willem notices.<span> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>Specifically, there is the pronoun I mentioned earlier.<span> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><i>N</i></span><i>į</i><span style="font-family: Arial; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>or<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>nie</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>is used for 1<sup>st</sup><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>person singular<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>AND<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></i>2nd person sg.<span> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>We might expect this for 2sg, but where might<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>ni</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>refer to 1sg??<span> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><i>DING!</i><span> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>Right!<span> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>Algonquian.</span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; "><span style="font-family: Arial; "> </span></p><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; "><span style="font-family: Arial; ">And how about syllable structure?<span> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>Siouan languages permit a wide variety of clusters, but Hochunk doesn’t allow many of these.<span> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>Why not?<span> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>Does Dorsey’s Law result in a more Algonquian-like syllable structure?<span> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>There are various structural possibilities for demonstrating contact beyond loanwords though.</span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; "><span style="font-family: Arial; "> </span></p><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; "><span style="font-family: Arial; ">We still have much to learn.</span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; "><span style="font-family: Arial; "> </span></p><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; "><span style="font-family: Arial; ">Bob</span></div><div style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); "><hr tabindex="-1">Bob, are you aware of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>any<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></i>Algonquian influences on Hochunk? Despite their being an island of Siouan in a sea of Algonquian languages, they seem to have mixed<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>very<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></i>little with the Algonquians in Wisconsin. I'm not aware of a single Hochunk loan in any Algonquian language. <div><div><br></div><div>Dave</div><div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial; ">It’s hard to say whether the “different” Hochunk pattern represents a retention of something lost everywhere else or an innovation, perhaps brought on by extensive contact with Algonquian,<span> </span></span></span></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></span></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>