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<div>Five syll. actually. GL counts as two syllables.</div>
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<div>Bob</div>
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<div><font style="color:#333333"><i>Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID</i></font></div>
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"De Reuse, Willem" <WillemDeReuse@MY.UNT.EDU> wrote:<br>
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<div style="direction:ltr; font-family:Tahoma; color:#000000; font-size:10pt">Hi Bob:<br>
<br>
I still feel miyoglas'in is not from 'mirrorglass', since the Lakota word is 4 syllables long, and the English has 3.<br>
<br>
But you are right, study of loans is just beginning, at least in the Plains and surrounding areas. It seems to me that in general Plains and Prairie languages do not borrow much, for cultural reasons I assume. But as you show, there is more than we think...<br>
<br>
It is different in the Arctic, where loans from Russian or Chukchi are common, and in the Subarctic where loans from Russian or French are common. In the Southwest we have a layer of old loans from Spanish everywhere, but otherwise very little borrowing from
each other... <br>
<br>
Also I think Dave is the one who noted that Hochank is surrounded by Algonquian, not me.<br>
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Willem<br>
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<div id="divRpF660577" style="direction:ltr"><font color="#000000" face="Tahoma" size="2"><b>From:</b> Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Rankin, Robert L. [rankin@KU.EDU]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, September 08, 2013 4:15 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Locatives and wa- problems.<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:Arial">I have to admit that I’m very skeptical of 5 syllable long “coincidences”, so it seems to me more likely that ‘mirror’ is a loanword from either French or English that may have been reanalyzed
in terms of the vertitive given in the new dictionary.<span style=""> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:Arial"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:Arial">Be that as it may, though, the study of loanwords in Native languages is just beginning.<span style="">
</span>Most of the linguists who converted to Americanist interests have tended to “dabble” in the various languages.<span style="">
</span>It’s understandable that we have concentrated on basic phonology, morphology and syntax, but it takes more than that to uncover borrowings.<span style="">
</span>A lot of them are quite old and often have a native “look” to them.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:Arial"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt; text-indent:-36.0pt"><i style=""><span style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:Arial">mitákopa, mąčgú,
</span></i><span style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:Arial">etc. ‘bow’, as in ‘bow-and-arrow’, is a loan.<span style="">
</span>John Koontz has written about these.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt; text-indent:-36.0pt"><span style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:Arial">Tobacco terms are widely borrowed.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt; text-indent:-36.0pt"><i style=""><span style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:Arial">wagmų́za, wadwą́, wičawą́,
</span></i><span style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:Arial">etc. ‘squash, pumpkin’ is a loan.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt; text-indent:-36.0pt"><i style=""><span style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:Arial">wagmiza, wamnáheza,</span></i><span style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:Arial"> etc. ‘corn’ are loan adaptations, based on ‘squash’.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt; text-indent:-36.0pt"><i style=""><span style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:Arial">hǫmnį́ke, hǫblį́ge,
</span></i><span style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:Arial">etc. ‘beans’ is a loan.<span style="">
</span>I covered these in the <i style="">Histories of Maize</i> anthology.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt; text-indent:-36.0pt"><span style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:Arial">All the various ‘long knives’ and ‘fire water’ terms are loans or loan-translations.<span style="">
</span>Goddard has written about these and others.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt; text-indent:-36.0pt"><span style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:Arial">All the
<i style="">saganaš, šągláša, sáznak,</i> etc. terms are loans, as we know.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt; text-indent:-36.0pt"><span style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:Arial">All the Dhegiha
<i style="">gðą́•ðe, lą́•ðe, lą́•ye</i>, etc. terms for ‘big’ are loans from Spanish
<i>grande</i>.<span style=""> </span>Pointed out by Quintero, Rankin and others.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt; text-indent:-36.0pt"><span style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:Arial">The various
<i style="">kkáwa, kkawáye</i>, etc. ‘horse’ terms are loans from Spanish.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt; text-indent:-36.0pt"><i style=""><span style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:Arial">othų́we, ttą́mą, htą́wą,
</span></i><span style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:Arial">etc. ‘town, band, settlement, etc.’ are probably loans.<span style="">
</span>My paper on <i style="">Tomahitan</i> deals with this.<span style=""> </span>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt; text-indent:-36.0pt"><i style=""><span style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:Arial">šą́kka</span></i><span style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:Arial"> ‘nine’ is a loan either from Siouan to Algonquian or the other
way around.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt; text-indent:-36.0pt"><span style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:Arial">There are numerous names of wild animals that are widespread among North American language families.<span style="">
</span>Michael Nichols has written about these.<span style=""> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:Arial"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:Arial">There are loans all over the place in Native languages, but unless you happen to know all the nearby languages, they don’t jump out at you like they do with European languages.<span style="">
</span>If you want to really get into the study of loans in Siouan, you should start with words that contain apparent reflexes of the long list of non-Siouan consonant clusters.<span style="">
</span>In Lakota start with <i style="">gm, gw</i> clusters, as in ‘trap’ for example.<span style="">
</span>You might expect to find Algonquian <i style="">kw</i> clusters as sources for these.<span style="">
</span>Other Dakotan clusters that seem to have peculiar combinations (that seem to be lacking in, say, Dhegiha) include
<i style="">sw, sm, šw, šm</i> sorts of things.<span style=""> </span>I don’t even know if they are native or not.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:Arial"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:Arial">In Chiwere
<i style="">dw</i> clusters are similarly suspect.<span style=""> </span>And, as you know, these will turn up in Hochunk with a Dorsey’s Law vowel.<span style="">
</span>The CSD is a pretty fair starting place.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:Arial"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:Arial">You can’t necessarily expect contact to be shown by loanwords however.<span style="">
</span>As Willem points out, some Native languages seem to resist direct lexical borrowing.<span style="">
</span>I personally don’t know whether this is literally true or whether it just looks that way because we, as individual linguists, haven’t had experience with enough of the different languages in a given area.<span style="">
</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:Arial"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:Arial">Hochunk is suspicious simply because it is surrounded by Algonquian, again as Willem notices.<span style="">
</span>Specifically, there is the pronoun I mentioned earlier.<span style=""> </span>
<i style="">N</i></span><i style=""><span style="font-size:14.0pt">į</span></i><span style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:Arial"> or
<i style="">nie</i> is used for 1<sup>st</sup> person singular <i style="">AND </i>
2nd person sg.<span style=""> </span>We might expect this for 2sg, but where might
<i style="">ni</i> refer to 1sg??<span style=""> </span><i style="">DING!</i><span style="">
</span>Right!<span style=""> </span>Algonquian.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:Arial"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:Arial">And how about syllable structure?<span style="">
</span>Siouan languages permit a wide variety of clusters, but Hochunk doesn’t allow many of these.<span style="">
</span>Why not?<span style=""> </span>Does Dorsey’s Law result in a more Algonquian-like syllable structure?<span style="">
</span>There are various structural possibilities for demonstrating contact beyond loanwords though.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:Arial"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:Arial">We still have much to learn.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:Arial"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:Arial">Bob</span></p>
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Bob, are you aware of <i>any </i>Algonquian influences on Hochunk? Despite their being an island of Siouan in a sea of Algonquian languages, they seem to have mixed
<i>very </i>little with the Algonquians in Wisconsin. I'm not aware of a single Hochunk loan in any Algonquian language.
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<div>Dave</div>
<div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:separate; font-family:Helvetica; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; line-height:normal; orphans:2; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:2; word-spacing:0px; font-size:medium"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family:Arial; font-size:19px">It’s
hard to say whether the “different” Hochunk pattern represents a retention of something lost everywhere else or an innovation, perhaps brought on by extensive contact with Algonquian,<span> </span></span></span></blockquote>
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