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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Hi Sky,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">Ø<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Since I’ve started working with Otoe-Missouria (and Ioway), I’ve noticed patterns when comparing Otoe-Missouria to Ponca (my wife is Ponca). Where
Otoe-Missouria has “ch” or “j”, Ponca tends to have “d” or “t”. For example:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">Ø<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">Ø<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">“Ponca/Otoe-Missouria” formatting in the list below.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">Ø<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">Ø<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">te/che – buffalo<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">Ø<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">inde/inje – face<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">Ø<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">ti/chi – house/live (the context of “live” here seems to be older in Otoe-Missouria…nowadays this mostly refers to “house”)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">Ø<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">tade/taje – wind<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Notice that these cases are all followed by a front vowel, [i] or [e]. When we make a front vowel, we arch our tongue up forward in our mouth so that it runs
parallel to our palate. Then, when we try to make a consonant next to that front vowel, it tends to slur to the middle because the tongue isn’t pointed where it needs to be. So after or before an [i] or [e] sound, [t] or [d] at the front and [k] or [g] at
the back often tend to slip toward the middle and become something like [ch] or [j]. This is called palatalization, and it happens in the evolution of a lot of languages, sometimes one way and sometimes the other. The letter C in Latin was originally always
pronounced [k], and the letter G was always hard [g]. But in time, whenever these came before [i] or [e], G came to be pronounced as [j], and C to be pronounced first as [ch] and eventually as [s] in French (and French words in English).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Palatalization has gone from the other direction here. The Ponca form is more like the original. In Otoe-Missouria, the original [t] has slid backward to
become [ch], and original [d] has slid back to become [j].<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">Ø<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Another pattern is where Otoe-Missouria has “ð (dh)” or “th”, Ponca tends to have “s”. For example:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">Ø<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">Ø<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">mase/maðe – metal<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">Ø<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">ska/thka – white (although a few Otoe-Missourias today still use “ska”)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">Ø<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">si/thi – foot<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">Ø<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">si/ði – yellow<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">Ø<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Actually, Ponca should have both [s] and [z]. Omaha certainly does, and Ponca is very close. For some reason, Fletcher and La Flesche decided to write both
of these sounds with a c-cedilla, </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">ç</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">. That has causes a good deal of unnecessary confusion, and has cost me a couple
years of my life working with my Omaha speaker to untangle the words in the Stabler-Swetland dictionary that was built on their orthography. This pattern should actually be:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">Ø<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">mąze/maðe – metal<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">Ø<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">ska/thka – white (although a few Otoe-Missourias today still use “ska”)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">Ø<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">si/thi – foot<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">Ø<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">zi/ði – yellow<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Here, the correspondence is:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:.5in"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Ponca [s] = Otoe-Missouria [th]<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:.5in"><span lang="FR" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Ponca [z] = Otoe-Missouria [</span><span lang="FR" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">ð</span><span lang="FR" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">]<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The difference is simply that the Otoe-Missouria sound is pronounced with the tongue further forward, against the back of the front teeth instead of on the
alveolar ridge behind them. From the Ponca point of view, Otoe-Missourias are lisping.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">Ø<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">All of that was to show a few patterns I have found and which are probably old news to you guys. Still, there is another pattern that I found that
made me think again about the use of –wi to indicate they-dual. This pattern is based on a conversation with a linguist at the recent Breath of Life I attended this past summer. He mentioned studying Lakota and mentioned that the term “tipi” literally said
“they-live” (I haven’t studied Lakota so I can’t claim how accurate this is). This made sense to me in that I was aware of the t/ch as a possible swap and that our term “chi” does carry a context of “live.” But the ending “-pi” had me curious because of
our –wi which is supposed to indicate they-dual. So I started looking for that particular pattern (b-p/w) and sure enough I found entries like:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">Ø<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">Ø<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">sabe/thewe – black (that one has both the s/th AND b/w swapped…an older form for “thewe” is “sewe” which is used as brown nowadays)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">Ø<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">nomba/nuwe – two (the “nomba” is based on Maximilian/Thwaites’ spelling)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">Ø<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">nombe/nawe – hand (ditto on the spelling)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">Ø<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">In general, I think you’re absolutely right there, though I suspect the actual Ponca cognate to Otoe-Missouria thewe would probably be sebe rather than sabe.
We have both in Omaha, and they are obviously closely related. The general term for ‘black’ is sabe, but sebe means a kind of shadowed dark, as in the woman’s name Mi-sebe, meaning “The Dark of the Moon”.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I’m sure your linguist friend is correct about “thi-pi” meaning ‘they live’, or rather ‘they dwell’. I’ve always understood that the *hti term can be used
either as the noun ‘house’ or as the verb ‘dwell’.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">Ø<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Ok, so using that pattern, would it be possible for the 3<sup>rd</sup>-person dual “-wi” in question to be a form of the Lakota “-pi” that was told
to me? And if so, it would certainly explain its existence. And if so, what context does “-pi” have? Does it also represent 3<sup>rd</sup>-person dual? Does it refer to “they” when “they” are known to the speaker and listener and not just they in general?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">Ø<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">Ø<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">What do you guys think?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">Ø<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Going back to the common ancestor language, yes. That would be Mississippi Valley Siouan, which includes Lakhota, Hoocąk, Otoe-Missouria, Ponca and Omaha,
among others. The presumed ancestral particle here is *(a)pi, which Bob and I often argue about. In the Dakotan branch, it stays (a)pi. In the Hoocąk-Ioway-Otoe-Missouria branch, I think it is always (a)wi, as you have it. In these two branches, it is
a pluralizing particle. In Hoocąk-Ioway-Otoe-Missouria, it is apparently used normally to pluralize only ‘you’ and ‘we’, and in Hoocąk, ‘I’, while a different particle like -ire or -nye is used to pluralize the third person. In Dakotan though, I think it
is used as commonly in the third person as for ‘we’ and ‘you’. In Omaha and Ponca, the cognate particle should be (a)bi, but in these languages it conveys an entirely different meaning, and apparently lives almost exclusively in the third person, both singular
and plural.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">So going back to the common ancestor of all these languages, MVS, it is very likely that the particle was used in the third person, though it is not so certain
that it meant plurality then. Going back only to the nearer common ancestral language, Hoocąk-Ioway-Otoe-Missouria, it almost certainly meant plurality, but it may have been restricted to ‘you’, ‘we’, and perhaps ‘I’. However, it is possible that the *ire
ending had not yet achieved total dominance of third person plural then, and that *(a)wi still lived along beside it in the third person to some extent. Then, perhaps that *(a)wi took on the specialized sense of duality in contrast to the broader plurality
of ire/nye in the line that led to Otoe-Missouria, and was able to maintain itself in that niche, but was overlooked by early linguists who never ran across this dual form. The hypothesis is reasonable; it’s just thin on evidential support at the moment.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">By the way, very nice comparative work! I look forward to seeing how you develop it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Rory<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Campbell, Sky<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, September 10, 2013 10:24 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Locatives and wa- problems.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I was the one who was questioning the –wi suffix as a 3<sup>rd</sup>-person dual for verbs. That conjugation is in newer material but as of yet I have been
unable to find it in older material. Rev. Hamilton in his <i>An Ioway Grammar</i> jumps straight from 3<sup>rd</sup>-person singular to 3<sup>rd</sup>-person plural (-nye). It was only recently that the idea of questioning –wi as a 3<sup>rd</sup>-person
dual was put to me. So I am in the middle of investigating it right now. However I do have a bit of anecdotal evidence that might support the use of –wi in this context. I have to set this up a bit so please bear with me
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D">J</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Since I’ve started working with Otoe-Missouria (and Ioway), I’ve noticed patterns when comparing Otoe-Missouria to Ponca (my wife is Ponca). Where Otoe-Missouria
has “ch” or “j”, Ponca tends to have “d” or “t”. For example:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">“Ponca/Otoe-Missouria” formatting in the list below.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">te/che – buffalo<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">inde/inje – face<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">ti/chi – house/live (the context of “live” here seems to be older in Otoe-Missouria…nowadays this mostly refers to “house”)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">tade/taje – wind<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Another pattern is where Otoe-Missouria has “ð (dh)” or “th”, Ponca tends to have “s”. For example:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">mase/maðe – metal<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">ska/thka – white (although a few Otoe-Missourias today still use “ska”)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">si/thi – foot<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">si/ði – yellow<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The older Otoe-Missouria language material (Long, Maximilian) is chock-full of “s” where nowadays we have ð or th.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">All of that was to show a few patterns I have found and which are probably old news to you guys. Still, there is another pattern that I found that made me
think again about the use of –wi to indicate they-dual. This pattern is based on a conversation with a linguist at the recent Breath of Life I attended this past summer. He mentioned studying Lakota and mentioned that the term “tipi” literally said “they-live”
(I haven’t studied Lakota so I can’t claim how accurate this is). This made sense to me in that I was aware of the t/ch as a possible swap and that our term “chi” does carry a context of “live.” But the ending “-pi” had me curious because of our –wi which
is supposed to indicate they-dual. So I started looking for that particular pattern (b-p/w) and sure enough I found entries like:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">sabe/thewe – black (that one has both the s/th AND b/w swapped…an older form for “thewe” is “sewe” which is used as brown nowadays)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">nomba/nuwe – two (the “nomba” is based on Maximilian/Thwaites’ spelling)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">nombe/nawe – hand (ditto on the spelling)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">(There may be an example of a reversal of this with Hamilton’s entry of “wą” (page 39 of his
<i>An Ioway Grammar</i>) to indicate surprise where nowadays you hear “bą” around here.)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Ok, so using that pattern, would it be possible for the 3<sup>rd</sup>-person dual “-wi” in question to be a form of the Lakota “-pi” that was told to me?
And if so, it would certainly explain its existence. And if so, what context does “-pi” have? Does it also represent 3<sup>rd</sup>-person dual? Does it refer to “they” when “they” are known to the speaker and listener and not just they in general?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">What do you guys think?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">PS I am not well versed in Ponca so I apologize in advance for any inaccuracies there
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D">J</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Sky Campbell, B. A.<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Language Director<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Otoe-Missouria Tribe<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">580-723-4466 ext. 111<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a href="mailto:sky@omtribe.org">sky@omtribe.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Siouan Linguistics [<a href="mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu">mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Rory Larson<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, September 09, 2013 3:58 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu">SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Locatives and wa- problems.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">Ø<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Does this answer your question?</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Yes. And thank you especially for the more complicated answer!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">You are right about the Chiwere claim; the one that came up recently I think is specifically about Otoe. Apparently the -wi particle is supposed to imply two
actors when used in the third person. But this is not attested in older sources, so the question is whether that usage is a recent development, or a misunderstanding by recent linguists, or whether the older linguists just missed it. I thought getting a
Hoo</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">cąk</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> perspective might help in evaluating the claim.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I don’t have much to add to that other than in connection with the two different positionals,
</span><i><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">jee/jąą</span></i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">, that you mention. In Omaha, in fact, we do have two ‘standing’ positionals, t</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">ʰ</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">e
and t</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">ʰ</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">aⁿ. The first is used for inanimates, and the second (rarely) for animate beings. If I recall the sound shift
rules I once learned from John and Bob correctly, MVS */t</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">ʰ</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">/ should stay /t</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">ʰ</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">/
in Omaha and go to /j/ in Hoo</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">cąk</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">, so I think those two pairs should probably be cognate. Bob might
be better able to comment on this.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Rory<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Siouan Linguistics [<a href="mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu">mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Iren Hartmann<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, September 09, 2013 2:17 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU">SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Locatives and wa- problems.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Hi Rory,<br>
<br>
the quick and simple answer to your question is no. There is no interchangeability between the two PL markers in Hoocąk.
<i>-wi</i> is not used to mark 3rd PL subject. However, I recall that this has been claimed for Chiwere, maybe there it is indeed possible.
<br>
The more complicated answer to your question is, that there is one sort of exception that I know of:<br>
For all full verbs 3rd PL subject is <i>-ire</i> in Hoocąk. And this is also true for all auxiliaries, except in the case of the positionals. With them
<i>-ire</i> cannot be used, they inflect irregularly anyway.. There the third PL form is always
<i>nąąk</i> (long version of the sitting/neutral positional), so that position is neutralized. However, there is a very curious form that one encounters every so often, which is
<i>hająwi</i> = they exist. It consists of <i>ha-</i>(collective marker)<i> jee</i> (vertical positional, sometimes used as existential) and
<i>-wi</i> (PL). This would be the only case in which you could get a -wi for 3rd PL subject. BUT it does NOT alternate with
<i>-ire</i>, and it has to co-occur with the collective. I think there might have been two diferent "positionals"
<i>jee/jąą </i>at some point and they got mostly conflated nowadays. This rare form here is a reflex of the one that was only used with animates and it is still in some use as an existential (hence also the curious nasalization). So really there is NO alternation
bewteen <i>-ire </i>and <i>-wi</i> in Hoocąk ever.<br>
Does this answer your question?<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Iren<br>
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><br>
<br>
One other question that has come up that you might want to comment on: Does Hooc</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">ą</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">k ever use the -wi
particle in the third person? I thought a long time ago I had read that in the third person plural, either -wi or -ire could occur, but with somewhat different meanings. Is there anything to that, or is my memory mistaken?</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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