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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D">Well, that’s Albert Gatschet for you – generalising on too few data. Am I right in thinking that some Illinois sources have a bimorphemic form for 8 in
addition to the Ohio Valley Siouan one? As to numerals, John Koontz said that Caddo for ‘one’ was plausibly from a Dhegiha form.
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>david costa<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 12 September 2013 19:28<br>
<b>To:</b> SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Borrowings.</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:black">Well, "nine" is monomorphemic in several Algonquian languages -- in some Ojibwe dialects, it's
<i>zhaang</i>, in most Potawatomi dialects it's <i>zhak</i>, and in Kickapoo it's
<i>saaka. </i>It may not be certain where that word comes from, but it's definitely </span><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:black">monomorphemic.</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:black">Dave</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:black">-----Original Message-----
<br>
From: Anthony Grant <br>
Sent: Sep 12, 2013 11:08 AM <br>
To: <a href="mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu">SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu</a> <br>
Subject: Re: Borrowings. <br>
<br>
<br>
</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D">Indeed I seem to recall that some (Albert Gatschet?) said that they knew of no Native North American language where ‘nine’ was a single morpheme. (I think
someone adduced this principle as evidence that the Taensa material was a fake.)</span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D">Anthony</span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">From: Siouan Linguistics [<a href="mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu">mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu</a>] On Behalf Of david costa<br>
Sent: 12 September 2013 19:00<br>
To: <a href="mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu">SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Borrowings.</span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:black">That's not excessively long for "nine". In a lot of North American languages, "nine" is explicitly something like "one missing", "one less" or "almost ten", etc.
So often it's a long construction. The Miami word for nine, <i>ninkotimeneehki, </i>
appears to mean "one missing", and in its conservative pronunciation is six syllables long. "Nine" is usually the oddball of the first ten numbers, historically.</span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:black">Dave</span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:black">-----Original Message-----
<br>
From: Rory Larson <br>
Sent: Sep 12, 2013 10:34 AM <br>
To: <a href="mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu" target="_blank">SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu</a>
<br>
Subject: Re: Borrowings. <br>
<br>
</span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D">Yes! That sounds like a very nice find. Keep it up with that speaker! :)</span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D">The only thing that crosses my mind is Lakhota napciyuNka, Santee napciwaNka, meaning ‘nine’, which seems excessively long for a common number. Perhaps it
is related to the /napci/ part of those words somehow?</span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D">Best,</span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D">Rory</span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black"> Siouan Linguistics [<a href="mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu" target="_blank">mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Greer, Jill<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, September 12, 2013 11:27 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU" target="_blank">SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Borrowings.</span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D">Fascinating! Keep up the good work, Sky!
</span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black"> Siouan Linguistics [<a href="mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu" target="_blank">mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Campbell, Sky<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, September 12, 2013 9:37 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu" target="_blank">SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Borrowings.</span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D">I couldn’t find the term for nine in my office but I did get to talk to the individual who gave it to me. They gave me “<b>nanye</b>” (NAH-nyeh) which sounds
very close to “nanyi” (sugar). Does this term ring a bell to anyone? They easily rattled off the numbers 1-10 exactly as I know them but instead of “sanke” they had “nanye.” They didn’t miss a beat either. I haven’t come across this term before. I don’t
know if it is some long lost word for nine, if it means nine in another language, or if it is an Otoe-ization of the English “nine.” I’m not saying it is impossible, but I am skeptical of that last one. Especially with the ease that they blew through the
numbers. It wasn’t a “let me look up and to the left while I try to remember and then use the careful enunciation of an individual largely unfamiliar with these words” sort of thing but a fast, practiced/familiar pronunciation. I’m going to have to see about
working with this individual more </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Wingdings; color:#1F497D">J</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D">.</span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D">Any thoughts?</span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D">Sky Campbell, B. A.</span></b><span style="color:black"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D">Language Director</span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D">Otoe-Missouria Tribe</span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D">580-723-4466 ext. 111</span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D"><a href="mailto:sky@omtribe.org" target="_blank">sky@omtribe.org</a></span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black"> Siouan Linguistics [<a href="mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu" target="_blank">mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Sky Campbell<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, September 09, 2013 9:16 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu" target="_blank">SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Borrowings.</span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D">About a year ago, I had a member of the Otoe-Missouria tribe tell me a word for nine that is different than the usual “sanke.” I can’t remember what it was
but I have it somewhere in my office. I’ll try to find it tomorrow. This talk about Siouan borrowing this term from Algonquian or vice versa has me very curious about that alternate term for nine. Maybe it’ll shed some light here.</span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D">Sky</span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black"> Siouan Linguistics [<a href="mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu" target="_blank">mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Rankin, Robert L.<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, September 9, 2013 8:59 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu" target="_blank">SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Borrowings.</span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:black">> As I mentioned before, this "shankka" number for "nine" is also around in Algonquian. The word can be reconstructed as Proto-Algonquian *<i>ša·nka</i>, but
there are lots of problems: the etymon is completely missing from all of Eastern Algonquian, Miami-Illinois and Blackfoot; the Cree and Menominee forms don't have the proper reflexes for those languages and look like they're all borrowed from Ojibwe; and the
Shawnee and Cheyenne forms inexplicably look like they derive from Proto-Algonquian *<i>ča·nka</i>, not *<i>ša·nka</i>. If it's a loan into Algonquian, it was borrowed early on, but after Algonquian had already started to separate out into dialects.<br>
<br>
Missing from Miami/Illinois is troubling, since they seem to be the bunch most in contact with Kaw, Osage and Quapaw and probably all of Dhegiha.
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