<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=windows-1257"><meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 12 (filtered medium)"><style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:Wingdings;
panose-1:5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;}
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:"Segoe UI";
panose-1:2 11 5 2 4 2 4 2 2 3;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
p
{mso-style-priority:99;
margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
p.MsoAcetate, li.MsoAcetate, div.MsoAcetate
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"Balloon Text Char";
margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:8.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";}
p.MsoNoSpacing, li.MsoNoSpacing, div.MsoNoSpacing
{mso-style-priority:1;
margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
p.MsoListParagraph, li.MsoListParagraph, div.MsoListParagraph
{mso-style-priority:34;
margin-top:0in;
margin-right:0in;
margin-bottom:0in;
margin-left:.5in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
span.BalloonTextChar
{mso-style-name:"Balloon Text Char";
mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"Balloon Text";
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";}
p.msochpdefault, li.msochpdefault, div.msochpdefault
{mso-style-name:msochpdefault;
margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
span.balloontextchar0
{mso-style-name:balloontextchar;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";}
span.balloontextchar00
{mso-style-name:balloontextchar0;
font-family:"Segoe UI","sans-serif";}
span.balloontextchar000
{mso-style-name:balloontextchar00;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";}
span.balloontextchar0000
{mso-style-name:balloontextchar000;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";}
span.balloontextchar00000
{mso-style-name:balloontextchar0000;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";}
span.balloontextchar000000
{mso-style-name:balloontextchar00000;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";}
span.emailstyle20
{mso-style-name:emailstyle20;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
span.emailstyle21
{mso-style-name:emailstyle21;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
span.emailstyle22
{mso-style-name:emailstyle22;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
span.emailstyle27
{mso-style-name:emailstyle27;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
span.emailstyle29
{mso-style-name:emailstyle29;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
span.emailstyle31
{mso-style-name:emailstyle31;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
span.emailstyle32
{mso-style-name:emailstyle32;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
span.emailstyle34
{mso-style-name:emailstyle34;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
span.emailstyle36
{mso-style-name:emailstyle36;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
span.EmailStyle38
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;}
@page WordSection1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Bob,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Thanks for the info!<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>When I first saw “no-wunk” as the Hocàk term for eight, my first thought was the OM term “nuwe/nowe” and how the listed “nope” (as listed in Long’s list for Hocàk “two”) could shift to “nowe” (the p to w shift that was mentioned before) and therefore be shoehorned into my “10 minus 2” idea. It’s amazing what concessions you allow for when they fit what you want LOL. That’s why I try to keep my ideas tentative </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D'>J</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I see what you’re talking about as far as a quinary system. The prefix you are talking about has me curious about how the counting works. The “gre” you mention makes me think of the “agrá” that is used when you pass ten (IE “grebrà agrá iyànki” for eleven, “grebrà agrá nuwe” for twelve, etc.). Now I don’t know much about quinary counting systems but the math side of me can see how this MAY work as you describe where “agrá danyi” could somehow shift into “grerabri” (assuming “gre-“ is related to “agrá”). One problem with this though is that a contracted version of “grebrà agrá iyànki” (11) omits the “grebrà” and just uses the “agrá iyànki.” But that would be a possible formula for six according to what I understand to be the basic quinary system. But if that form of six is lost in antiquity and “sagwe” moved in somehow, I’m guessing the idea of starting over every five digits could still remain and become the “partial quinary” counting system you are talking about.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Just some thoughts. I get into this stuff a little too much sometimes </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D'>J</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Sky<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Rankin, Robert L.<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, September 16, 2013 4:39 PM<br><b>To:</b> SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: Number 'nine' in Chiwere.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>> I’ve been poking around a bit about the number nine and so far I haven’t found anything to back up the possibility of “grerabri” being related to “grebrà.” So I thought I’d try to see what Hocàk has for this. Note that I have almost no experience with Hocàk so this is very iffy. But I found something interesting (which may be old news to you guys </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D'>J</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>).<br><br></span><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I'm going to leave the Hochunk numerals to the Hochunk specialists, although I suspect your "one-not" analysis in terms of finger counting is correct.<br><br><i>GrerabriN </i>'8's not related to <i>grebrà '10'. </i>It's related to <i>rabriN</i> '3'. 'Seven' should be <i>grenoNba</i>, or something close to that, if memory serves. Systems in which 6 through 10 contain the numbers 1 though 5 are called <i>quinary</i> (or five-base) counting systems. In Dhegiha and Chiwere systems the words for 'seven' and 'eight' usually contain the words for 'two' and 'three' respectively, with a prefix. The prefix is <i>ppe:-</i> in Dhegiha and <i>gre:-</i> in Chiwere. Both prefixes have long vowels. So Dhegiha and Chiwere systems are <i>partial quinary</i> counting systems. This leaves 'nine' odd-man-out, and various Siouan languages deal with it in different ways, as we've seen.<br><br>Bob</span><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I’ve been going through Maximilian and Long’s Otoe language lists lately and thought I’d look there for some Hocàk numbers to see if my idea can be backed up there. Here is what Long has for nine:</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>jhink-ich-os-co-ne</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Nothing at all like “sanke.” So based on what’s being said here, I decided to look at what he has for one:</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>jhing-ke-de</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Looks to me like “one” is definitely part of “nine” here. I’m not sure what “(i)ch-o” is doing in there but the “s-co-ne” sure looks like “skunyi” (not) to me. So I’m wondering if this is “one – not – (doing whatever)”. An EXTREMELY tentative thought I am having right now is maybe the (i)ch-o might be something along the lines of “ah-kutch-ah” which Henry Merrell has as “the other side” (that was his spelling as well). If so, that would be “one – not – the other side” which perhaps might refer to the idea of holding one finger down on one hand. But like I said, that is EXTREMELY tentative.</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>So I thought, “Ooh! Maybe eight follows suit!” But I was stopped cold with eight being:</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>no-wunk</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I have absolute no idea what is going on there. It is nothing like “grerabri.” I can see how the rest of the numbers match Otoe-Missouria (with the obligatory shifts and differences, of course) but not eight (or nine). So now I am wondering if Hocàk kept the original form of nine but picked up their eight from somewhere else.</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Has anyone else seen or worked with this form of eight before? Are there any theories as to its origins?</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></body></html>