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<body class='hmmessage'><div dir='ltr'>Hi Sky & Bob,<br><br>I had already posted what number nine was in Hoocąk before this question came up, so I’m a bit confused. Anyway, here are for your reference numbers 1 through 10, 20 & 30 in Hoocąk<br><br><font style="font-size: 16pt;" size="4">1 hižąkiira [= one(hižą)-only</font><font style="font-size: 16pt;" size="4">(kiira)</font><font style="font-size: 16pt;" size="4">]</font><font style="font-size: 16pt;" size="4"><br></font><font style="font-size: 16pt;" size="4">2 nųųp</font><font style="font-size: 16pt;" size="4"><br></font><font style="font-size: 16pt;" size="4">3 taanį</font><font style="font-size: 16pt;" size="4"><br></font><font style="font-size: 16pt;" size="4">4 joop</font><font style="font-size: 16pt;" size="4"><br></font><font style="font-size: 16pt;" size="4">5 saacą</font><font style="font-size: 16pt;" size="4"><br></font><font style="font-size: 16pt;" size="4">6 hakewe</font><font style="font-size: 16pt;" size="4"><br></font><font style="font-size: 16pt;" size="4">7 šaagowį</font><font style="font-size: 16pt;" size="4"><br></font><font style="font-size: 16pt;" size="4">8 haruwąk</font><font style="font-size: 16pt;" size="4"><br></font><font style="font-size: 16pt;" size="4">9 hižąkicųšgųnį [= hižą(one)-ki-cųųšgųnį(be.without)]</font><font style="font-size: 16pt;" size="4"><br></font><font style="font-size: 16pt;" size="4">10 kerepąnąižą [= kerepąną(10)-hižą(one)</font><font style="font-size: 16pt;" size="4">]</font><br><font style="font-size: 16pt;" size="4">20 kerepąnąnųųp </font><font style="font-size: 16pt;" size="4">(2 10s)<br></font><font style="font-size: 16pt;" size="4">30 kerepąnątaanį (3 <font style="font-size: 16pt;" size="4">10s)</font></font><font style="font-size: 16pt;" size="4"><br></font><font style="font-size: 16pt;" size="4">etc.</font><br><br>Those numbers from the old source you cited, Sky, seem to be somewhat corrupted.<br><br>Best,<br>Iren<br><br><div><hr id="stopSpelling">Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2013 21:38:39 +0000<br>From: rankin@KU.EDU<br>Subject: Re: Number 'nine' in Chiwere.<br>To: SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu<br><br>
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<div style="direction:ltr;font-family:Arial;color:#000000;font-size:14pt;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;">> I’ve been poking around a bit about the number nine and so far I haven’t found anything to back
up the possibility of “grerabri” being related to “grebrą.” So I thought I’d try to see what Hocąk has for this. Note that I have almost no experience with Hocąk so this is very iffy. But I found something interesting (which may be old news to you guys
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D;">J</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;">).<br>
<br>
<font size="4"><font face="Arial">I'm going to leave the <font size="4">H<font size="4">och<font size="4">unk numerals to the Hochunk specialists, although I suspect your "one-not" analysis in<font size="4"> terms of finger<font size="4"> counting is correct.<br>
<br>
<font size="4"><i>GrerabriN </i><font size="4">'</font>8's not related to<font size="4">
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></span><i><font size="4"><span style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);"><span style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);">grebrą '10'.
</span></span></font></i><font size="4"><span style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);"><span style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);"><font size="4">It's related to
<i>rabriN</i> '3'. 'Seven' should be <i>greno<font size="4">Nba</font></i></font>, or something close to that,
<font size="4">if memory serves. <font size="4">Systems in which 6 through 1<font size="4">0
<font size="4">contain the numbers 1 though 5 are called <i>quinary</i> (or five-base) counting systems.
<font size="4">In Dhegiha and Chiwere systems the wo<font size="4">rds for 'seven' and 'eight' usually contain the words for 'two' and 'three' respectively<font size="4">, with a prefix.
<font size="4">The prefix is <i>ppe:<font size="4">-</font></i><font size="4"> in Dhegiha and
<i>gre:-</i> in <font size="4">Chiwere. Both prefixes have long vowels. So </font>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></span></span></font><font size="4"><span style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);"><span style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);"><font size="4"><font size="4"><font size="4"><font size="4"><font size="4"><font size="4"><font size="4"><font size="4"><font size="4"><font size="4"><font size="4"><span style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);"><span style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);"><font size="4"><font size="4"><font size="4"><font size="4"><font size="4">Dhegiha
and Chiwere systems are <i>partial quinary</i> counting systems. This leaves 'nine' odd<font size="4">-man-out, and various Siouan languages deal with it in different ways, as we've seen.<br>
<br>
<font size="4">Bob</font><br>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></span></span></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></span></span></font>
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<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;">I’ve been going through Maximilian and Long’s Otoe language lists lately and thought I’d look there for some Hocąk numbers to see if my idea can be backed
up there. Here is what Long has for nine:</span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;"> </span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;">jhink-ich-os-co-ne</span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;"> </span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;">Nothing at all like “sanke.” So based on what’s being said here, I decided to look at what he has for one:</span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;"> </span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;">jhing-ke-de</span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;"> </span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;">Looks to me like “one” is definitely part of “nine” here. I’m not sure what “(i)ch-o” is doing in there but the “s-co-ne” sure looks like “skunyi” (not)
to me. So I’m wondering if this is “one – not – (doing whatever)”. An EXTREMELY tentative thought I am having right now is maybe the (i)ch-o might be something along the lines of “ah-kutch-ah” which Henry Merrell has as “the other side” (that was his spelling
as well). If so, that would be “one – not – the other side” which perhaps might refer to the idea of holding one finger down on one hand. But like I said, that is EXTREMELY tentative.</span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;"> </span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;">So I thought, “Ooh! Maybe eight follows suit!” But I was stopped cold with eight being:</span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;"> </span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;">no-wunk</span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;"> </span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;">I have absolute no idea what is going on there. It is nothing like “grerabri.” I can see how the rest of the numbers match Otoe-Missouria (with the obligatory
shifts and differences, of course) but not eight (or nine). So now I am wondering if Hocąk kept the original form of nine but picked up their eight from somewhere else.</span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;"> </span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;">Has anyone else seen or worked with this form of eight before? Are there any theories as to its origins?</span></p>
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