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<div style="direction: ltr;font-family: Arial;color: #000000;font-size: 14pt;">Well, the fact that this is essentially the hypothesis of the History Channel guys, Richard Thornton and Scott Wolter, who also claim to have "discovered" Mayan temples in North
Georgia, doesn't make the theory more attractive. When legit archaeologists have dug up an identifiably Totonacan boat in the SE U.S., I'll take it more seriously.
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I'd be interested to hear from Algonquianists whether the Algonquian term is reconstructible in that family. If so, it would be a much more likely source for the Siouan and Muskogean terms. BTW, the Choctaw speakers I worked with had "tomaha" rather than
"tamaha", but I don't know how widespread that is.<br>
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Creek "talwa" is not involved in the group. It is a native term derived from the root "tal-" 'arrange, put, place, group' and appears to have good cognates across Muskogean.
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Bob<br>
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<div style="direction: ltr;" id="divRpF117049"><font color="#000000" face="Tahoma" size="2"><b>From:</b> Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of David Kaufman [dvkanth2010@GMAIL.COM]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, October 05, 2013 11:08 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Miyoglasin<br>
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<div>I have toyed with the idea that Choctaw-Chickasaw and Mobilian Jargon tamaha 'town' and Creek talwa 'town' could have been borrowed from Totonac tamawan, which literally means 'place of buying' and 'plaza' in Totonacan. Totonac is the central coastal
Mexican language that may have been spoken in and around El Tajin on the Gulf coast of Mexico, perhaps after migrating from Teotihuacan ca. 800 CE. This would assume of course that the Totonacs were doing maritime trading across the Gulf over into Mobile
Bay where the word could have entered Muskogean then possibly was copied into Siouan and some Algonquian languages from there. Maybe a long shot, but given certain other lexical resemblances between Totonac, Mayan, and Muskogean not necessarily out of the
question.<br>
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Dave<br>
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<div>David Kaufman, Ph.C. Linguistic Anthropology<br>
University of Kansas<br>
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Director, Kaw Nation Language Program<br>
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<div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 10:20 AM, shokooh Ingham <span dir="ltr">
<<a href="mailto:shokoohbanou@yahoo.co.uk" target="_blank">shokoohbanou@yahoo.co.uk</a>></span> wrote:<br>
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<div><span>Cree Otenaw 'town' an Lakota Othunwahe is also an interesting resemblance.</span></div>
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<span>Bruce</span></div>
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<font face="Arial"><b><span style="font-weight:bold">From:</span></b> "Rankin, Robert L." <<a href="mailto:rankin@KU.EDU" target="_blank">rankin@KU.EDU</a>><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> <a href="mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu" target="_blank">
SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu</a> <br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, 10 September 2013, 2:01<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: Miyoglasin<br>
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<div style="direction:ltr; font-size:14pt; font-family:Arial">Jan,<br clear="none">
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Thanks for the expert commentary and additional examples.<br clear="none">
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<i>O</i><font size="4"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)"><i>thúŋwahe</i> ‘town’ is another
<font size="4">on<font size="4">e of those <i>wanderwoerter</i> that has similar forms in Dakotan,
<font size="4">Dhegiha, and Biloxi as well as Choctaw and Chickasaw. I'm surprised it doesn't seem to be in Chiwere or Hochunk. I think it turns up in Virginia in the tribal name
<font size="4"><i>Tomahitan</i>, which would mean 'big town' also in Biloxi. It's not out of the question that the word is native Siouan, but the distribution and sound correspondences don't make me feel good. :-)<br clear="none">
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<font size="4">Bob</font><br clear="none">
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<div style="direction:ltr"><font color="#000000" face="Tahoma"><b>From:</b> Siouan Linguistics [<a href="mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu" target="_blank">SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu</a>] on behalf of Jan Ullrich [<a href="mailto:jfu@LAKHOTA.ORG" target="_blank">jfu@LAKHOTA.ORG</a>]<br clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, September 09, 2013 2:25 PM<br clear="none">
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu" target="_blank">SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu</a><br clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Miyoglasin<br clear="none">
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<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Dear all:</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt">I think that there are more loan words in traditional Lakota than one may think. Here are some examples:</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt">aspéla (from aspirin)</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt">bébela ‘baby’ from French</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt">khukhúše ‘pig’ from French</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt">kuŋkúŋla - ‘cucumber’</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt">khamíte ‘committee’</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt">pusíla – ‘cat’</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt">spakéli ‘spaghetti’</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt">I recorded these word from fluent traditional speakers, although it is true that not all of them are recognized across the community. Such is the case of spakéli, aspéla and pusíla, but the other ones are fully standardized
lexical items. And I am quite sure that this is not the full list. </span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt">I am intrigued by Bob’s comment that othúŋwahe ‘town’ might be borrowing as well. I recall reading somewhere (perhaps in one of John Koontz’s materials, but I could be wrong) that the word itázipa ‘bow’ is a loan as well.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Also, many speakers told me how their monolingual Lakota speaking grandparents Lakotized the children’s English names because they couldn’t pronounce them. For example Delores was called “Čelowiŋ”, Imogene was “Imočila” etc.
I have documented dozens of these. I think that this could be another indication that Lakota speakers were quite open to borrowing words from other languages. Contemporary speakers are usually very reluctant to do so, but I think this might have been different
when the majority of speakers were still monolingual. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if there were lots of loans from other tribes, especially on fauna and flora.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt">As for “mirror” I have always been skeptical about the “mirror glass” etymology because the analyses that involves mní ‘water’ and a possessive or reflexive of ókas’iŋ ‘to peer into’ seem quite convincing and is consistent
across dialects. But again, I can be wrong and it wouldn’t be for the first time.</span></div>
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<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Jan</span></div>
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<div><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> Siouan Linguistics [mailto:<a href="mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu" target="_blank">SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>De Reuse, Willem<br clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, September 09, 2013 1:58 AM<br clear="none">
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu" target="_blank">SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu</a><br clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Miyoglasin</span></div>
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<div><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Thanks for the very detailed miyoglas'in discussion, Rory. I agree, and I like the expression 'chiming calque'.<br clear="none">
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Willem</span></div>
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<div style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> Siouan Linguistics [<a href="mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu" target="_blank">SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu</a>] on behalf of Rory Larson [<a href="mailto:rlarson1@UNL.EDU" target="_blank">rlarson1@UNL.EDU</a>]<br clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, September 08, 2013 6:51 PM<br clear="none">
<b>To:</b> <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" href="mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu" target="_blank">
SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu</a><br clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Miyoglasin</span><span style=""></span></div>
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<div style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Wingdings; color:rgb(31,73,125)">Ø</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt; color:#1f497d">
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt" lang="EN-GB">It is not unlikely that this was influenced by "mirrorglass". But it has a good Lakota etymology (see the New Lakota Dictionary), so this is NOT a loan from English. (Coincidences happen. My favorite is
[elkar] which means 'each other' in Dutch and in Basque.)</span><span style=""></span></div>
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<div><span style="font-size:14pt; font-family:Wingdings">Ø</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt">
</span><span style="font-size:14.0pt">I have to admit that I’m very skeptical of 5 syllable long “coincidences”, so it seems to me more likely that ‘mirror’ is a loanword from either French or English that may have been reanalyzed in terms of the vertitive
given in the new dictionary.</span><span style=""></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt">The word miyoglasin, together with several variants of the term, appears in both Williamson and Riggs:</span><span style=""></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Riggs:</span><span style=""></span></div>
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<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> mi-yó-gla-siŋ, n. T. a mirror, looking glass. See mioglasiŋ.</span><span style=""></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> mí-o-gla-siŋ, n. T. a mirror. See mniohdasiŋ.</span><span style=""></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> mni-yó-hda-siŋ, n. a looking-glass; window glass. See mioglasiŋ.</span><span style=""></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Williamson:</span><span style=""></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> mirror, n. Ihdiyomdasiŋ. Y. Mniokdasiŋ. T. Miyoglasiŋ.</span><span style=""></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Riggs:</span><span style=""></span></div>
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<div style="text-indent:.5in"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">i-hdí-yo-mda-siŋ, n. a looking-glass, mirror. T., miyoglasiŋ. See aokasiŋ and okasiŋ.</span><span style=""></span></div>
<div style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
<div style="text-indent:.5in"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">a-ó-ka-siŋ, v.a. to look into, peep into—aowakasiŋ, aoyakasiŋ, aouŋkasiŋpi.</span><span style=""></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> ó-ka-siŋ, v. to look into. See aokasiŋ, kas’iŋ, and okakiŋ.</span><span style=""></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> ka-s’íŋ, adv. appearing, in sight. See aokasiŋ and okasiŋ.</span><span style=""></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt">The term is pretty clearly based on the verb ókas(‘)iŋ, ‘to look into’. In its vertitive form óglasiŋ, it should mean ‘to look into at oneself’, which makes very good sense for the meaning of ‘mirror’. The Yankton and one
of the Santee forms suggest that the word originally began with the term m(i)ni, ‘water’, rather than the undefined element /mi/. The other Santee form shows that ‘oil’, ihdi, could be substituted for ‘water’ to get the same sense (though in this case, they
are apparently using a different instrumental prefix—not sure why). Most likely, native people were perfectly familiar with the concept of looking into a pool of clear, still liquid to see their own faces long before European mirrors ever appeared.</span><span style=""></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt">These dictionaries were developed in the 19<sup>th</sup> century, and the suite of terms taken together shows the approximate etymology without having to assume a recent reanalysis. Only the Teton/Lakhota form shows any
notable similarity to “mirrorglass”, and then only because that dialect happens to use the cluster /gl/ where other dialects use /hd/ or /kd/.</span><span style=""></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span style=""></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt">This almost certainly is not a simple loanword from French or English. French seems to have both “miroir” and “glace” as words for ‘mirror’, where English has “mirror” and “looking-glass”. But was a term like “mirrorglass”
actually in circulation in either language in the 18<sup>th</sup> or 19<sup>th</sup> centuries? I don’t find it in my English dictionary, or in the French dictionary either. If we can document that this compound was commonly used a couple of centuries ago,
then perhaps the Lakhota form was influenced by it to the extent of changing initial mni- mi-. Otherwise, I think the “coincidence” here may actually illustrate the process of creating a chiming calque, in this case, from Lakhota into English.</span><span style=""></span></div>
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<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Cheers,</span><span style=""></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Rory</span><span style=""></span></div>
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