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<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; COLOR: #0000ff; FONT-SIZE: 14pt">
<DIV><FONT size=4>ñíta = ocean “big water”. It was a year or so now that
Bob R addressed this old root “ta” and provided an extensive comparative listing
of how it is found in all the Siouan languages. I believe I may have
merged his discussion into my Dictionary. The dictionary also contains an
in depth discussion of the relationship between “wakan (snake)” and “Wakanda
(God/ Thunders)”.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
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<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=sky@OMTRIBE.ORG
href="mailto:sky@OMTRIBE.ORG">Campbell, Sky</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Monday, October 28, 2013 4:15 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu
href="mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu">SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning"
information</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none">
<DIV class=WordSection1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">The term “ñita” doesn’t ring a
bell with me beyond something along the lines of being at water or in the
direction of water. You see it in names quite a bit (IE “Coming from the
Water”).<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">If Kaw has the underlying “gr”
as both you and Justin mention, then that would certainly lend itself to
Maximilian’s “gron.” And if that is the case, I supposed it would be
conceivable that our modern “rugri” (lightning) could have originally been
pronounced “gr” (“grugri” perhaps?). At any rate, I am still curious as to
if the “gri” portion refers to “returning home” or something along those
lines.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">I’ve attached Dorsey’s paper for
those interested. My mention of “Lu” is on page 84. Justin, you
mentioned “hawk.” Dorsey also mentions on that same page about a sacred
bag of gray hawk skin where he says, “These objects are kept by a man of the Lu
gens, who is forbidden to open the bag, the gray hawk being the taboo of his
gens, who are known as Gray Hawk people.”<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 14pt">Sky
Campbell, B. A.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">Language
Director<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">Otoe-Missouria
Tribe<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">580-723-4466 ext.
111<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: #1f497d">sky@omtribe.org<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Siouan Linguistics
[mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Rory Larson<BR><B>Sent:</B>
Monday, October 28, 2013 3:49 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: Looking for "thunder" and
"lightning" information<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; COLOR: #1f497d">Omaha has
<I>iⁿgròⁿ-huttoⁿ</I> for ‘thunder’, apparently meaning ‘the cry of an
<I>iⁿgròⁿ</I>’. Outside of that context, <I>iⁿgròⁿ</I> is the base word
for a ‘cat’, though in this context I think it may refer to a thunderbird.
By itself, <I>gròⁿ</I> seems to have a variety of meanings in Omaha, including
‘grumbling’ or ‘cussing’. I suppose thunder could be conceived as somebody
upstairs grumbling about something.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; COLOR: #1f497d">Omaha also has
<I>u-grà’a</I> for a ‘war-whoop’. I suspect this is a separate
term.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; COLOR: #1f497d">Bob can confirm,
but I believe /l/ in Kaw represents an underlying /gr/ in the original (MVS)
language. So from the Otoe point of view, the Lu clan should probably be
read as the “Gru” clan.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; COLOR: #1f497d">I doubt that
<I>waxo</I> would be related to <I>wahką</I>. But they may mean about the
same thing. In Omaha, the word for ‘sacred’ or ‘holy’ is <I>xubè</I>,
presumably from <I>*xo</I> (‘holy’) + <I>*pe</I> (some kind of
determiner). In IOM, does <I>ñita</I> mean anything by
itself?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; COLOR: #1f497d">Good
questions. I’ll look forward to seeing what other answers you fish
up. :)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; COLOR: #1f497d">Rory<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; COLOR: #1f497d">(Oops, Justin
already replied. So I guess Lu should represent <I>*gro(ⁿ)</I>, which
presumably just means either ‘thunder’ or ‘thunderbird’ in
MVS.)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Siouan Linguistics
[<A href="mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu">mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Campbell, Sky<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, October 28, 2013 2:21
PM<BR><B>To:</B> <A
href="mailto:SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU">SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU</A><BR><B>Subject:</B>
Looking for "thunder" and "lightning"
information<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal>I’m looking for some feedback (and cognates if applicable) on
some terms for “thunder” and “lightning.”<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal>For the thunder term, I am trying to find information on
Maximilian’s terms for thunder which are “gron-gron” and
“wahkonda-gron-gron”. I am trying to figure out what his term “gron”
is. Maximilian notes the “on” is pronounced as it is in French which would
be our nasal “ą”. So this term would be “grą” or the reduplicated version
“grągrą.” Any suggestions on what that may be? I have two theories
in mind and both come from other terms from Maximilian. First is his term
“gra-ah” (gra’a) which he has as shout or “give the warhoop.” The other is
his term “gro<SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">ͣ</SPAN>n-rä”
(email formatting won’t let me show the accented “á” above the “o” like the
source has it) which would be “grąre” which he translates as “great.”
Those are just speculations right now. It should also be noted that he
gives lightning as “wáhkonda-gron” (same as thunder but without the
reduplication). And it may be a stretch but I’m wondering if this “grą” is
somehow related to our current “k’o” for thunder.<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal>Any thoughts?<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal>Maximilian’s term for lightning seems to be a variant of
thunder so figuring out thunder will help with lightning. So my question
about lightning isn’t about that variant but another. Nowadays we
have:<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal>rugri/rugrį<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal>Then I was reading Dorsey’s “The Religions of Siouan Tribes”
and he notes, “The Kansa tell the following: During the first thunder-storm of
the year, the Lu or Thunder-Being people put a quantity of green cedar on a
fire, making a dense smoke.” With “Lu”, he is talking about a Kaw
clan. And with “r” and “l” being interchangeable in many materials, it has
me thinking of our “rugri” and has me wondering if our “rugri” perhaps says
“thunder beings returned home (or here?)” (ru/lu – thunder beings + gri (return
home).<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal>Does anyone have any information on that?<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal>And one more thing while I’m thinking about it. In the
same paper I mentioned above by Dorsey, he is a big fan of “Wakąnda” being
translated as “great serpent” (waką + dana) although he does go through a few
other possibilities. Still, “great serpent” seems to be the translation he
likes the best. I can see how he came to that conclusion. But he
also notes that “In the Dakota language, wa-kan’ means mysterious, wonderful,
incomprehensible;” And in “Early Western Travels – 1748-1846, Vol. 24
(pages 223-224), Maximilian (via Thwaites) writes, “This name is composed of two
words; and, therefore, is not to be written as one. The first word, uakan,
less correctly wakan, is the expression for god, divine, supernatural; the
second, tanka, not tunka, means great.”<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal>So that got me thinking about our term waxoñita/xoñita for
sacred/holy and I am curious if that “waxo-“ is related to the “waką” that
Dorsey mentions and if the idea is really closer to the “great mysterious one”
rather than “great serpent.” Or do they both mean the same thing and it
just depends on what sense you are using? I can only think of one other
instance off the top of my head where “xo-“ is used by itself to indicate sacred
and that is Jimm Goodtracks’ translation of William Whitman’s term “mixoge”
(berdache…mi- (female) + xo- (sacred) + -ge (quality of)).<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal>This is probably a loaded question but I’m interested in any
information anyone might have on this.<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt">Sky Campbell, B.
A.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>Language Director<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>Otoe-Missouria Tribe<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>580-723-4466 ext. 111<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><A
href="mailto:sky@omtribe.org">sky@omtribe.org</A><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV><BR>
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