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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Jimm, sometimes it is hard to tell if that suffix is from “ida” (there) or is short for “dana” (great/very/etc.). I know that Alanson Skinner has the term “Nita<sup>n</sup>ga” as “Great Waves” as a term for the ocean. So for a term like Wakąnda, it is tough to see which one it is although to date all the sources I’ve seen suggest it is a contracted “dana” (tąnga/tąnka) although your dictionary uses it as the locative.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Rory, the idea of “hand” for “ru-“ is an interesting one. I’ll add it to the list of possibilities </span><span style='font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D'>J</span><span style='color:#1F497D'>. Another idea I thought of involving instrumental prefixes that may be “out there” is the idea of the possessive “gra-“ merging with “ra-“ (by mouth) which has me wondering about the “warhoop” that Maximilian mentioned with his term “gra-ah.” This makes me think of the verb ‘ų to maybe say “gra‘ų” (doing something by means of his own mouth?? also looks sort of like “he made his own” as well) and has me wondering if this could account for the nasal “gron” that Maximilian mentioned.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Iren, does anything specific in your term “rujax” refer to sound, something loud, or anything along those lines?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>And just for fun, here are a couple terms by Agent Albert Green for lightning:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>peje wagaxe – fire writing (he spelled it “Pa-cha-Wah-goh-hah”)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>and<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Wakąnda peje wagaxe (Wah-con-dah-Pacha-wah-go-hah)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>He translated that last one as “fire writing by the Great Spirit.”<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Sky Campbell, B. A.<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Language Director<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Otoe-Missouria Tribe<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>580-723-4466 ext. 111<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>sky@omtribe.org<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Jimm G. GoodTracks<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 28, 2013 7:00 PM<br><b>To:</b> SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:blue'>ñíta = ocean “big water”. It was a year or so now that Bob R addressed this old root “ta” and provided an extensive comparative listing of how it is found in all the Siouan languages. I believe I may have merged his discussion into my Dictionary. The dictionary also contains an in depth discussion of the relationship between “wakan (snake)” and “Wakanda (God/ Thunders)”.</span><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:blue'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:blue'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:whitesmoke'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> <a href="mailto:sky@OMTRIBE.ORG" title="sky@OMTRIBE.ORG">Campbell, Sky</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:whitesmoke'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>Sent:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> Monday, October 28, 2013 4:15 PM<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:whitesmoke'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>To:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> <a href="mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu" title="SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu">SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:whitesmoke'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>Subject:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>The term “ñita” doesn’t ring a bell with me beyond something along the lines of being at water or in the direction of water. You see it in names quite a bit (IE “Coming from the Water”).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> </span><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>If Kaw has the underlying “gr” as both you and Justin mention, then that would certainly lend itself to Maximilian’s “gron.” And if that is the case, I supposed it would be conceivable that our modern “rugri” (lightning) could have originally been pronounced “gr” (“grugri” perhaps?). At any rate, I am still curious as to if the “gri” portion refers to “returning home” or something along those lines.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> </span><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>I’ve attached Dorsey’s paper for those interested. My mention of “Lu” is on page 84. Justin, you mentioned “hawk.” Dorsey also mentions on that same page about a sacred bag of gray hawk skin where he says, “These objects are kept by a man of the Lu gens, who is forbidden to open the bag, the gray hawk being the taboo of his gens, who are known as Gray Hawk people.”<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> </span><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Sky Campbell, B. A.<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Language Director<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Otoe-Missouria Tribe<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>580-723-4466 ext. 111<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><a href="mailto:sky@omtribe.org">sky@omtribe.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> </span><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> Siouan Linguistics [<a href="mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu">mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Rory Larson<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 28, 2013 3:49 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu">SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D'>Omaha has <i>iⁿgròⁿ-huttoⁿ</i> for ‘thunder’, apparently meaning ‘the cry of an <i>iⁿgròⁿ</i>’. Outside of that context, <i>iⁿgròⁿ</i> is the base word for a ‘cat’, though in this context I think it may refer to a thunderbird. By itself, <i>gròⁿ</i> seems to have a variety of meanings in Omaha, including ‘grumbling’ or ‘cussing’. I suppose thunder could be conceived as somebody upstairs grumbling about something.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> </span><span style='font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D'>Omaha also has <i>u-grà’a</i> for a ‘war-whoop’. I suspect this is a separate term.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> </span><span style='font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D'>Bob can confirm, but I believe /l/ in Kaw represents an underlying /gr/ in the original (MVS) language. So from the Otoe point of view, the Lu clan should probably be read as the “Gru” clan.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> </span><span style='font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D'>I doubt that <i>waxo</i> would be related to <i>wahką</i>. But they may mean about the same thing. In Omaha, the word for ‘sacred’ or ‘holy’ is <i>xubè</i>, presumably from <i>*xo</i> (‘holy’) + <i>*pe</i> (some kind of determiner). In IOM, does <i>ñita</i> mean anything by itself?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> </span><span style='font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D'>Good questions. I’ll look forward to seeing what other answers you fish up. :)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> </span><span style='font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D'>Rory<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> </span><span style='font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D'>(Oops, Justin already replied. So I guess Lu should represent <i>*gro(ⁿ)</i>, which presumably just means either ‘thunder’ or ‘thunderbird’ in MVS.)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> </span><span style='font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> </span><span style='font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> Siouan Linguistics [<a href="mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu">mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Campbell, Sky<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 28, 2013 2:21 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU">SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>I’m looking for some feedback (and cognates if applicable) on some terms for “thunder” and “lightning.”<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>For the thunder term, I am trying to find information on Maximilian’s terms for thunder which are “gron-gron” and “wahkonda-gron-gron”. I am trying to figure out what his term “gron” is. Maximilian notes the “on” is pronounced as it is in French which would be our nasal “ą”. So this term would be “grą” or the reduplicated version “grągrą.” Any suggestions on what that may be? I have two theories in mind and both come from other terms from Maximilian. First is his term “gra-ah” (gra’a) which he has as shout or “give the warhoop.” The other is his term “gro</span><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>ͣ</span><span style='color:black'>n-rä” (email formatting won’t let me show the accented “á” above the “o” like the source has it) which would be “grąre” which he translates as “great.” Those are just speculations right now. It should also be noted that he gives lightning as “wáhkonda-gron” (same as thunder but without the reduplication). And it may be a stretch but I’m wondering if this “grą” is somehow related to our current “k’o” for thunder.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Any thoughts?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Maximilian’s term for lightning seems to be a variant of thunder so figuring out thunder will help with lightning. So my question about lightning isn’t about that variant but another. Nowadays we have:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>rugri/rugrį<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Then I was reading Dorsey’s “The Religions of Siouan Tribes” and he notes, “The Kansa tell the following: During the first thunder-storm of the year, the Lu or Thunder-Being people put a quantity of green cedar on a fire, making a dense smoke.” With “Lu”, he is talking about a Kaw clan. And with “r” and “l” being interchangeable in many materials, it has me thinking of our “rugri” and has me wondering if our “rugri” perhaps says “thunder beings returned home (or here?)” (ru/lu – thunder beings + gri (return home).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Does anyone have any information on that?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>And one more thing while I’m thinking about it. In the same paper I mentioned above by Dorsey, he is a big fan of “Wakąnda” being translated as “great serpent” (waką + dana) although he does go through a few other possibilities. Still, “great serpent” seems to be the translation he likes the best. I can see how he came to that conclusion. But he also notes that “In the Dakota language, wa-kan’ means mysterious, wonderful, incomprehensible;” And in “Early Western Travels – 1748-1846, Vol. 24 (pages 223-224), Maximilian (via Thwaites) writes, “This name is composed of two words; and, therefore, is not to be written as one. The first word, uakan, less correctly wakan, is the expression for god, divine, supernatural; the second, tanka, not tunka, means great.”<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>So that got me thinking about our term waxoñita/xoñita for sacred/holy and I am curious if that “waxo-“ is related to the “waką” that Dorsey mentions and if the idea is really closer to the “great mysterious one” rather than “great serpent.” Or do they both mean the same thing and it just depends on what sense you are using? I can only think of one other instance off the top of my head where “xo-“ is used by itself to indicate sacred and that is Jimm Goodtracks’ translation of William Whitman’s term “mixoge” (berdache…mi- (female) + xo- (sacred) + -ge (quality of)).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>This is probably a loaded question but I’m interested in any information anyone might have on this.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;color:black'>Sky Campbell, B. A.<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Language Director<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Otoe-Missouria Tribe<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>580-723-4466 ext. 111<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><a href="mailto:sky@omtribe.org">sky@omtribe.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:black'><br> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><br> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div><br>
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