<div dir="ltr">Ah, excellent detective work, George! Thank you for tracking that down.<div><br></div><div>Maybe it's just the way Lowie wrote it in his notes, but it almost reads like a couplet: two lines of 13 syllables, the first ending in bacóritsi'tse and the second in rɛǝxe. It strikes me as somewhat different in its poetic aspects than the Chiwere 8,888 example with all the gl- sequences or the Crow Nez Perce example, which also has a dense concentration of similar sounds. I wonder what a native speaker's take on it would be in terms of what makes it tricky to say or otherwise aesthetically pleasing/amusing.</div>
<div><br></div><div>In any case, I'll be interested to hear your thoughts on it, Randy.</div><div><br></div><div>All best,</div><div>Saul</div><div><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">
On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 3:32 PM, George Wilmes <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:george.wilmes@gmail.com" target="_blank">george.wilmes@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">Hi Saul,<div><br></div><div>In the ancient and venerable Colorado Siouan Archive, there is something very similar in one of Lowie's word lists, which was keypunched as follows:</div><div><br></div><div>
<div>
1 TSIPAPU*':C </div><div>2 CHIPMUNK, SQUIRREL</div><div>3 NOUN</div><div>4 TSIPAPU*':C ITSU*':P BAKU*TA BACO*':RITSI'HTSE ASA*'HKA </div><div> RU*':P DU*TSE O':PI*': ICDE R"E*'6XE</div>
<div>5 THE CHIPMUNK ALONGSIDE OF A SHINBONE GETS HOLD OF BOTH SIDES</div><div> OF A MEDICINE-ROCK AND SMOKES WITH A GLOSSY EYE </div><div> (A TONGUE-TWISTER, TOLD BY +MAX +BIG-MAN) </div><div>11 +P. 164</div></div><div>
<br></div><div>I believe the source for that transcription was this book:</div><div><br></div><div><a href="http://www.ucpress.edu/op.php?isbn=9780520007741" target="_blank">http://www.ucpress.edu/op.php?isbn=9780520007741</a><br>
</div><div>
<br></div><div>Here is the particular page in the book:</div><div><br></div><div><a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=27TpGhZ9dWoC&pg=PA164&dq=lowie+crow+word+lists+chipmunk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=T_2DUu7gENSA2QWuoICwDw&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=lowie%20crow%20word%20lists%20chipmunk&f=false" target="_blank">http://books.google.com/books?id=27TpGhZ9dWoC&pg=PA164&dq=lowie+crow+word+lists+chipmunk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=T_2DUu7gENSA2QWuoICwDw&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=lowie%20crow%20word%20lists%20chipmunk&f=false</a><br>
</div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 11:17 AM, Saul Schwartz <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:sschwart@princeton.edu" target="_blank">sschwart@princeton.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Hello all (and especially Randy),<div><br></div><div>A colleague has been doing archival research on Lowie's fieldwork and found in his notes a Crow tongue twister listed as told by Max Big-Man. I've attached a photo.</div>
<div><br></div><div>I won't try to type out the Crow here, but it looks like Lowie was collecting a series of words related to the verb "hang" that all included -tsiky (e.g. awi'kyotsiky, 'I hung something over'), and the tongue twister begins tsi- and has a lot of tsi and tse sequences in it, so maybe that's what prompted his consultant to tell it.</div>
<div><span style="border-collapse:collapse;font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br></span></div><div><span style="border-collapse:collapse;font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Lowie's English gloss, as far as I can make out, is: "Chipmunk shinbone [illegible] of it medicine rock gets a hold on both side smokes with glen[?] eye."</span></div>
<div><span style="border-collapse:collapse;font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br></span></div><div><font face="arial, sans-serif"><span style="border-collapse:collapse">If anyone recognizes this tongue twister or knows what it's saying, my colleague and I are curious and would appreciate any insight you could share.</span></font></div>
<div><font face="arial, sans-serif"><span style="border-collapse:collapse"><br></span></font></div><div><font face="arial, sans-serif"><span style="border-collapse:collapse">Best,</span></font></div>
<div><font face="arial, sans-serif"><span style="border-collapse:collapse">Saul</span></font></div><div><span style="border-collapse:collapse;font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br>
</span></div></div><div><div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 9:45 PM, Saul Schwartz <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:sschwart@princeton.edu" target="_blank">sschwart@princeton.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Just want to thank everyone who responded to my question and contributed to this discussion, especially Randy for coming up with the Lowie reference!<div>
All best,</div><div>Saul</div></div><div><div><div class="gmail_extra">
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 1:21 PM, Jimm G. GoodTracks <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jgoodtracks@gmail.com" target="_blank">jgoodtracks@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr" lang="EN-US" vlink="purple" link="blue">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="FONT-FAMILY:'Times New Roman';COLOR:#0000ff;FONT-SIZE:14pt">
<div><font size="4">Jill: Aho, Pi ke. Saul is the one to ask about
ELAN. Last summer he and another woman at KU coached me on the use of the
program. I am aware of its several useful applications, but not on how to
enable the functions, sorts, sounds, etc. I was a poor dense student
for Saul who gave up in exasperation of my natural inept denseness. Like
yourself, I have enough on my desk right now that any attempt to upload more
instructions, information, etc. would only overload my system, causing undue
delays to my current delays. </font></div>
<div><font size="4"></font> </div>
<div><font size="4">But being you are blessed with a sharp mind and quick
aptitude, you sure will master the program with the right instructor. Keep
posted on all the interesting stuff going on over at your camp. I am down
to the final two scripts of Film III. I think I’ll celebrate when all
done.</font></div>
<div><font size="4"></font> </div>
<div><font size="4">We will miss you at Conference, but realize you are having an
adventurous time in DC.</font></div>
<div><font size="4">Jimm</font></div>
<div style="FONT-STYLE:normal;DISPLAY:inline;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri';COLOR:#000000;FONT-SIZE:small;FONT-WEIGHT:normal;TEXT-DECORATION:none">
<div style="FONT:10pt tahoma">
<div> </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND:#f5f5f5">
<div><b>From:</b> <a title="Greer-J@MSSU.EDU" href="mailto:Greer-J@MSSU.EDU" target="_blank">Greer, Jill</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 16, 2013 1:59 PM</div><div><div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu" href="mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu" target="_blank">SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: Siouan tongue twisters?</div></div></div></div></div>
<div> </div></div><div><div>
<div style="FONT-STYLE:normal;DISPLAY:inline;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri';COLOR:#000000;FONT-SIZE:small;FONT-WEIGHT:normal;TEXT-DECORATION:none">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt">I’ll
do my best, Jimm. You’re right, I owe it to those
elders. Good news, I have a new laptop, and I downloaded ELAN last
night. Wasn’t it the one Iren and Dave Rood were so excited about last
year? I’m hoping to get some video material started, but learning new
software is not really my strong suit. Any advice from you all on using
ELAN? I also downloaded the Doulos font from SIL, and I think I actually
installed it on my Mac, which didn’t want to let me use any non-Mac
material….</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt">Jill</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"></span> </p>
<div>
<div style="BORDER-BOTTOM:medium none;BORDER-LEFT:medium none;PADDING-BOTTOM:0in;PADDING-LEFT:0in;PADDING-RIGHT:0in;BORDER-TOP:#b5c4df 1pt solid;BORDER-RIGHT:medium none;PADDING-TOP:3pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Tahoma','sans-serif';FONT-SIZE:10pt">From:</span></b><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Tahoma','sans-serif';FONT-SIZE:10pt"> Siouan Linguistics
[mailto:<a href="mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu" target="_blank">SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Jimm G.
GoodTracks<br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, May 12, 2013 9:50 AM<br><b>To:</b>
<a href="mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu" target="_blank">SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: Siouan tongue
twisters?</span></p></div></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:blue;FONT-SIZE:13.5pt">Yes,
Jill!</span><span style="COLOR:blue;FONT-SIZE:14pt"></span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:blue;FONT-SIZE:13.5pt">Do go through
“all my field notes” and doing that in the near future rather than the
indefinite “whenever.” The kind of findings/ anecdotes/ statements gleaned
from our late Ioway, Otoe-Missouria (IOM) Elders who are worthy to be included
in the encyclopedic entries of the revised IOM Dictionary. I am
including statements, discussions from present day tribal members as well, such
as stated in Email correspondence and on a more grand scale, the recent award
winning documentary film “The Lost Nation: The Ioway” (Parts I, II, III),
by the highly recognized film makers, Kelly & Tammy Rundle of Fourth Wall
Films, Moline, Ill. </span><span style="COLOR:blue;FONT-SIZE:14pt"></span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:blue;FONT-SIZE:14pt"></span> </p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:blue;FONT-SIZE:13.5pt">By the way, I am
going to make a committed effort to <strong><i><u>complete</u></i></strong> all
scheduled IOM Dictionary entries in the next three year AT MAX, and then, I will
transfer the working files to CD in preparation for sending all to a printer for
producing a <strong>Hard Copy and distribution.</strong> That would be
approximately Dec, 2016. Forty three years in the compiling and production
of an ultimate and excellent IOM Dictionary is sufficient for one life time (my
opinion). We all know that dictionary work is endless, and one needs draw
the line. I’ll be 73yo at that time, my grandson Sage PagranDahe will be
11yo, and on the verge of middle school years. I will be needing to give
attention to this. I’d prefer he accomplish these years in Antigua, where
Private Schools Education have high standards without the gauntlet of state
tests as teaching standards, and also there is less negative learning from
unfortunate peers who come from homes/ families with low standards & lax
supervision of their children. It was my experience in Lawrence with my
children and grandchildren that while the Lawrence middle schools and staff are
excellent in all other aspects, the influence from the flow of all manner of
children from diversified backgrounds interfered with our family and lead to
much chaos, confusion and visits with/ to the juvenile system and courts, where
I came well known, but which served in the rapid custody of Hintagwa when his
parental family (my son) disintegrated. I want to spare Hintagwa a
possible repeat of these ill scenarios. </span><span style="COLOR:blue;FONT-SIZE:14pt"></span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:blue;FONT-SIZE:14pt"></span> </p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:blue;FONT-SIZE:13.5pt">However, bottom
line may be that I will not locate a preferred Antigua private middle schools
with a fully balanced curriculum. In which case, I have identified the
near to White Cloud private Sacred Heart School in Falls City, NE (a full
1~12year school) as an alternative, which offers tailored small classes, and
student focused attention with high academic achievement among students within
the state educational standards. </span><span style="COLOR:blue;FONT-SIZE:14pt"></span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:blue;FONT-SIZE:14pt"></span> </p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:blue;FONT-SIZE:13.5pt">So, it is
imperative that between you there, Saul in Princeton (at the moment) that we
strive and commit to completing the Ioway Otoe (IOM) grammars (professional/ lay
grammars) and any undone work that should be included into the hard copy print
of the unabridged exhaustive resource Dictionary. Anecdotes and
conversations such as you and Saul shared below are precious, and mostly
none-existent in the contemporary acculturated/ assimilated three communities in
Kansas & Oklahoma. I realize your busy, but we ALL are busy. It
is timely to complete long delayed tasks so that the information may be shared
with and for the common good of both the Báxoje Jiwére Native communities, the
public domain and Academia. </span><span style="COLOR:blue;FONT-SIZE:14pt"></span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:blue;FONT-SIZE:14pt"></span> </p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:blue;FONT-SIZE:13.5pt">I trust and pray
you take heed of this advisory. Remember what our Elders, their words they
shared with us, namely:</span><span style="COLOR:blue;FONT-SIZE:14pt"></span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:blue;FONT-SIZE:13.5pt">Ix^án swíhsje
ke; Ama ch^é tórigi áre ke. Hánwegi dagúre^sun hin^unsdunwi
ke. Tanhéda hintúgan Bi mángrida dáhahajena aréchi xáme
gigrúnje taho. </span><span style="COLOR:blue;FONT-SIZE:14pt"></span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:blue;FONT-SIZE:14pt"></span> </p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:blue;FONT-SIZE:13.5pt">Gasunhsji
hadádana ke. Tórigunda</span><span style="COLOR:blue;FONT-SIZE:14pt"></span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:blue;FONT-SIZE:13.5pt">Jimm</span><span style="COLOR:blue;FONT-SIZE:14pt"> </span></p></div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Tahoma','sans-serif';COLOR:black;FONT-SIZE:10pt"></span> </p></div>
<div>
<div>
<p style="BACKGROUND:whitesmoke" class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Tahoma','sans-serif';COLOR:black;FONT-SIZE:10pt">From:</span></b><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Tahoma','sans-serif';COLOR:black;FONT-SIZE:10pt"> <a title="Greer-J@MSSU.EDU" href="mailto:Greer-J@MSSU.EDU" target="_blank">Greer, Jill</a>
</span></p></div>
<div>
<p style="BACKGROUND:whitesmoke" class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Tahoma','sans-serif';COLOR:black;FONT-SIZE:10pt">Sent:</span></b><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Tahoma','sans-serif';COLOR:black;FONT-SIZE:10pt">
Saturday, May 11, 2013 11:59 PM</span></p></div>
<div>
<p style="BACKGROUND:whitesmoke" class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Tahoma','sans-serif';COLOR:black;FONT-SIZE:10pt">To:</span></b><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Tahoma','sans-serif';COLOR:black;FONT-SIZE:10pt"> <a title="SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu" href="mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu" target="_blank">SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu</a>
</span></p></div>
<div>
<p style="BACKGROUND:whitesmoke" class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Tahoma','sans-serif';COLOR:black;FONT-SIZE:10pt">Subject:</span></b><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Tahoma','sans-serif';COLOR:black;FONT-SIZE:10pt"> Re:
Siouan tongue twisters?</span></p></div></div></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:black"></span> </p></div></div>
<div>
<div>
<p><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Tahoma','sans-serif';COLOR:black">Thanks, Saul
- Actually, Grandpa Truman still talked about the number 888 - he
would just laugh about it. I can't remember any more right now, but if I
ever get to go through all my field notes... </span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Tahoma','sans-serif';COLOR:black"></span> </p>
<p><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Tahoma','sans-serif';COLOR:black">of course, the
sound symbolism he enjoyed too - the word for sneeze was SO dead on target
soundwise - he?shi (sorry, no keyboard symbols here - it's a glottal stop,
and the sh is as in English..)</span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Tahoma','sans-serif';COLOR:black"></span> </p>
<p><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Tahoma','sans-serif';COLOR:black">Best,</span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Tahoma','sans-serif';COLOR:black">Jill
Greer</span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Tahoma','sans-serif';COLOR:black"></span> </p>
<div>
<div style="TEXT-ALIGN:center" class="MsoNormal" align="center"><span style="COLOR:black">
<hr align="center" size="2" width="100%">
</span></div>
<div>
<p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:12pt" class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Tahoma','sans-serif';COLOR:black;FONT-SIZE:10pt">From:</span></b><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Tahoma','sans-serif';COLOR:black;FONT-SIZE:10pt">
Siouan Linguistics [<a href="mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu" target="_blank">SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu</a>] on behalf of Saul Schwartz
[<a href="mailto:sschwart@PRINCETON.EDU" target="_blank">sschwart@PRINCETON.EDU</a>]<br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, May 11, 2013 2:54
PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu" target="_blank">SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu</a><br><b>Subject:</b>
Siouan tongue twisters?</span><span style="COLOR:black"></span></p></div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Arial','sans-serif';COLOR:black;FONT-SIZE:10pt">Hello,<br><br>Just
wanted to share an amusing anecdote I encountered when I was in the American
Philosophical Society Library recently going through Gordon Marsh's
correspondence with Franz Boas. </span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Arial','sans-serif';COLOR:black;FONT-SIZE:10pt">The
following is in a letter from Marsh, dated August 6, 1936, updating Boas on the
progress of his fieldwork with Chiwere speakers near Perkins,
Oklahoma:<br><br>"I can say a few words and simple sentences and can ask for
food at the table. The Indians get a great kick out of hearing me talk.
</span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Arial','sans-serif';COLOR:black;FONT-SIZE:10pt">Sometimes
I read them parts of my text, a lot of which they have never heard, and they say
it sounds very natural to them and they all understand it. </span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Arial','sans-serif';COLOR:black;FONT-SIZE:10pt">They
are pleased when I say 8888 for them. It is supposed to be the hardest thing to
say and some of them say they can’t say it themselves. It is simply:<br><br>kóge
glelábliⁿ gléblaⁿ húyaⁿ glelábliⁿnaⁿ gléblaⁿ glelábliⁿ aglíⁿ
glelábliⁿ."<br><br>While I know that tongue twisters are a recognized form
verbal play and source of amusement in many languages, this is the first time
I've come across a Siouan one. </span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Arial','sans-serif';COLOR:black;FONT-SIZE:10pt">If
there are other examples of Siouan tongue twisters, I'd be interested to hear
about them.<br><br>Be well,<br>Saul</span></p></div></div></div></div></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:black"><br><br></span><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:black;FONT-SIZE:10pt">This
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</div></div></div></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>