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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Interesting! Remember that as people like the American dialectologist William Labov taught us, if there are variations in how to pronounce something within a language, it’s rarely the case that anyone uses
only one variation always, and the other group only uses the alternate. And the social context can subtly affect which one is chosen, even below the conscious level of the speaker. So, New York City speakers from a working class neighborhood might use
the classic ‘r’ dropping X percent of the time, say 65% (John Boyle can probably remember this exactly), while middle class folks might only ‘drop their [r]’ 30%, and upper class folks might only have it 5% of the time, just as an example.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">It always seemed to me since so many Otoe-Missouria had Ioway kin (and vice versa) that an absolute 100% consistency in using the alternate forms (like the inye vs. inge example here) would be very unlikely.
So beyond the possible differences in the persons’ hearing and transcription, it might have been perfectly acceptable to pronounce the name both ways, at the same point in time.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> (In this part of SW Missouri, Sky, your last name would traditionally be said more like the desert animal, Camel
</span><span style="font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D">J</span><span style="color:#1F497D">; we had dear neighbors who I knew only by hearing their names spoken, and was surprised to find out later that the spelling had not one but two “silent letters”).
Then a new girl of the same surname came to school, and she pronounced it Cam-bell, (still the silent p), so I added that variation for her name, but that didn’t change the way I addressed the older folks at church....
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Jill <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Sky Campbell<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 17, 2014 3:00 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear"<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Found this in the next treaty (1825) while trying to figure out yet another name LOL.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Waw-zob-e-ing-ge<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">And once I saw it, I remembered seeing it before. Now I have a shift from "th" to "z" in a span of 8 years and it has me questioning if "ignet" was actually supposed to represent -inye or -inge. If the first
one was in face -inye then here you have another shift to -inge. Presumably this same individual was there to pronounce his name for whoever was writing it down. And if so, he changed 1 (and maybe 2) part of his name. A number of scenarios come to mind
for the change (perhaps another one of the signers pronounced it for him) but it would still be nice to get this sorted out :).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Sky<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Siouan Linguistics [<a href="mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu">mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Greer, Jill<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:27 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu">SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear"<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Whoops - I meant Dhegiha there. Sorry all! Jill<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Siouan Linguistics [<a href="mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu">mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Greer, Jill<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:22 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu">SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear"<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Good point Sky - Of course, there could be lots of alternative words for many things that we just don’t have examples, so this is exciting. Names are always fascinating. I must be getting hunger this afternoon,
because Wasabi is a Japanese restaurant in town here, and the thought of wonderful hot horseradish came to my mind when your Otoe word was on the screen…
</span><span style="font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D">J</span><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Jill<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Siouan Linguistics [<a href="mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu">mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Rory Larson<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:12 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu">SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear"<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">That’s a very good point, Jill, and well taken. Yes, there is an equivalent name, at least in the Thatada clan, which is Wasabe-zhiⁿga. If the term Sky found is a borrowing, it shows that understanding between
the two groups at the time was good enough to cause Dhegiha ‘s’ to shift forward to Otoe ‘th’, and for the Dhegiha ‘small’ term (zhiⁿga) to be replaced by Otoe iñe, as Sky has just noted. But I think either of those are quite possible and likely, so we might
want more evidence from Otoe before we conclude that this ‘bear’ term was generally used in Otoe.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Rory<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Siouan Linguistics [<a href="mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu">mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Greer, Jill<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:52 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU">SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear"<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Sky and Rory,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Great posts - one thing to consider also is that it’s actually not an Otoe word per se. It’s possible for entire names to have been borrowed across tribes (or bestowed, think of the intertribal peace-making
child adoption tradition of the Pipe Dance (Calumet in some soures), with the Beloved Child (it could be a girl or a boy) undergoing an elaborate ceremony. People might have multiple names (family kin name, clan name, later a name from an accomplishment,
plus nicknames [‘uncle names’]. Is there a similar name in Dhegiha groups? <o:p>
</o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Jill<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Siouan Linguistics [<a href="mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu">mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Rory Larson<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:43 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu">SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear"<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Sky,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">The <i>wasabe</i> term is not just Ponca; it’s Omaha, Kaw and (as
<i>wasape</i>) Osage as well. I assume it’s common Dhegiha. It refers to the black bear, as opposed to the
<i>mąnto</i>-equivalent term for ‘grizzly bear’. I’m sure you’re entirely right that the ‘Wathapay’ part of that name is an Otoe equivalent of Dhegiha
<i>*wasape</i>. It looks like the ‘ignet’ must have been written by a Frenchman; it kind of threw me a little at first. :)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Anyway, if the *<i>wasape</i> term was not known from Otoe before, that’s a great catch! So it looks like you have three terms for ‘bear’??<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Rory<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Siouan Linguistics [<a href="mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu">mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Sky Campbell<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, April 16, 2014 1:50 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU">SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear"<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I've had a name from an old Otoe treaty (1817) that has always puzzled me. The name is:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Wathapayignet - the Small Bear<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">There is no <i>mųnje</i> (bear/black bear) or <i>mąnto</i> (grizzly bear) terms to be found in there. The "small" part is easy enough to pull out of there (yignet = -inye). Then the thought struck me about the Ponca term for bear (wasabe)
and how the Ponca "s" can sometimes be the Otoe "th" in cognate terms. This gives me "wathabe" as the term for bear. Now before I run with this, does anyone have anything to back this up? It certainly makes sense and the pieces fit. But I have never seen
"wathabe" anywhere as an Otoe word for bear. But if I am right, this would give me:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Wathabeinye - Small Bear<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">If I am correct, then I'm thinking that this is an <i>extremely</i> old term.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Anyone else come across this before?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Sky<o:p></o:p></p>
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