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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Update!<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>While looking for something totally unrelated to the "ka" when it comes imperatives, I found this in Hamilton and Irvin's <i>An Ioway Grammar</i> (1848) on page 92:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>"The various terminations are often used indiscriminately; but -<i>ho</i>, has less of the idea of commanding than -<i>ræ</i>, and -<i>ka-ræ</i> has more."<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>So there you go. It is a "scale of commanding intensity" of sorts where "ho" is at the bottom, "re" is in the middle, and "kare" is the most forceful. I'm going to keep my eye out for more information on this but I thought I'd share it with those who may be interested and express my thanks to those who chimed in on this discussion :).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Sky<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Campbell, Sky<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, April 22, 2014 9:01 AM<br><b>To:</b> SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: Aho! (IO -ka in Imperatives)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I’m not sure what that “ga” is doing there. Dorsey something similar to that but he describes it as a masculine term that means “adv. of action in past time, not continuing into the present.”<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>However I do have something else which says that “ga” is a female exclamation saying “Here it is” or “Take it.” The use of it isn’t in a sentence but just a standalone “Ga!” (male version being “Go!”). So at this point I don’t know if this can be placed at the end of a sentence to exclaim something along the lines of “here it is.” It would sure seem to fit this scenario though.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Sky Campbell, B. A.<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Language Director<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Otoe-Missouria Tribe<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>580-723-4466 ext. 111<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><a href="mailto:sky@omtribe.org">sky@omtribe.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Siouan Linguistics [<a href="mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu">mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Rory Larson<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, April 21, 2014 8:47 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu">SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: Aho! (IO -ka in Imperatives)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Sky, I was just reading through a text I found on the Ioway-Otoe language web site, under “Personal Narratives” (Worage), called Hinkuni, or “Grandmother”, by Julia Small, collected originally by Gordon Marsh in 1936 and retranscribed and retranslated by Jimm Goodtracks. In it, I found the following quoted sentence:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> “Járe éwa čh^émi hñe ga.”<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>It is translated as<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> “This is the one <i>(that’s)</i> surely to kill me.” (Said by a woman who is wandering around lost, upon meeting a grizzly bear)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>If I am following this correctly, that glosses as:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> Járe – This one<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> éwa – that is the one who<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> čh^émi – kill me (causative form?)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> hñe – potential/future marker<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> ga – (??) Is this the “surely” part?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Does that glossing seem correct to you? And if so, does the <i>ga</i> at the end have anything to do with the -<i>ka</i> element you’ve been discussing?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Rory<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Siouan Linguistics [<a href="mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu">mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>John Koontz<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, April 18, 2014 8:28 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU">SIOUAN@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: Aho! (IO -ka in Imperatives)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>I think the closing quote mark would be glottalization. It should be compared with things that have glottal k, t, or p. Note that Dorsey uses the same opening quotation mark for glottalization of fricative and aspiration with stops (when he marks that). The closing quotation mark is ejective with stops. It's very confusing. I forget which option he uses with glottal stop alone. He calls ejectives "exploded." <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><hr size=2 width="100%" align=center></span></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 08:11:59 -0500<br>From: <a href="mailto:sky@LEGENDREADERS.COM">sky@LEGENDREADERS.COM</a><br>Subject: Re: Aho! (IO -ka in Imperatives)<br>To: <a href="mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu">SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I just remembered that I needed to respond to this email so I apologize for the delay! Outlook says I replied but I don't remember doing so...perhaps I started it but had to stop.</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>For Dorsey, the ' character that I used actually looks like a </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>ʾ</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> (not sure if you can see that...think of a superscripted reversed "c"). Does that help?</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Last week I had someone come to my office and they were knowledgeable enough to have me bring this up to them. They looked at it and recognized it but couldn't immediately remember the details on it. They said they'd think on it and I expect to follow up with them soon.</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Your mention of kare/gare perhaps being a male imperative is interesting. I mentioned in another email how this time period (1830-40s) seems to show a shift away from some of the Ponca/Omaha morphemes to today's versions. Perhaps, as you suggested, this could be another.</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Sky</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Siouan Linguistics [<a href="mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu">mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>John Koontz<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, March 6, 2014 4:16 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu">SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: Aho! (IO -ka in Imperatives)</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>In k'a what is '? If it is aspiration (opening quote) this sounds a little like the ubiquitous the (th = aspirate) in OP. It actually alternates with the inanimate articles (the ~ khe ~ dhaN ~ ge) and is associated with something like pastness. The alternants indicate something about the "shape" of the action, as they indicate the shape of the noun when they are inanimate articles. (And khe 'long, lying' occurs with animate things like snakes.) <br> <br>I am pretty sure that the sense of these forms in OP is not pastness per se but 'deducibility'. As a set they indicate that the action is deduced to have occurred (in the shape indicated). This contrasts with the ama particle that occurs with reported things (and conditions any preceding plural-proximate marker to be bi instead of I). <br> <br>The "proximate" term is one I have borrowed from Algonquian usage and is not very suitable. The general idea is that the action can be observed to occur and takes place under the independent volition of the third person singular subject. And this is (for some reason) marked with a plural marker on the third person subject. Only Dhegiha has this pattern. But it keeps coming up because I need to explain that a=i is 'he (proximate) said' in most places, even though it looks like 'they said'. There is a non-proximate, or obviative e 'he said', but it is vanishingly rare in texts. The a=i is also 'they said', of course. (The IO analogs of e and a=i are e and a=wi.)<br> <br>We have to be a little careful with associating ga's. Siouan languages are full of forms that look the same and mean something different. In OP ga is the masculine imperative, the "yonder" demonstrative, and the "by striking" instrumental besides the places where it turns up superficially because gi has contracted with a following a. There's also places where aN 'we' is followed by the locative prefix a- 'on' producing aNga-. From your examples I think you are safe in associating the cases of kare where there is an imperative meaning. <br> <br>If you have kare alternating indeterminately with re and in more modern examples completely replaced by re, maybe you just have a case of a historical change in usage observed in progress? I can think of all kinds of things that are somewhat irregular in OP and Da because they are changing and are controlled by the formulas the speaker has heard various others use, by their sense of style as it applies in a specific utterance, and so on. <br> <br>Because there is an male imperative particle ga in OP it is worth wondering if =ka=re originally marked male imperatives in IO. If it works at all like OP (where the female imperative is =a), I would expect re alone to be the female imperative and to condition the a-grade of preceding ablauting e. In other words, the female imperative would be =a=re, and that initial a would replace any preceding e. It might occasionally show up as an extra element if the preceding vowel wasn't e. So in OP =a=di 'in' changes preceding e to a, ppahe ~ ppahadi, and sometimes the a appears in forms like ppamu ~ ppamuadi, tti ~ ttiadi, or sometimes you just get =di and sometimes a preceding e doesn't change either. These last, simpler patterns are, of course, the modern ones. <br> <br>It looks like Whitman says the imperative does condition e > a. So, for what it's worth, that pattern is consistent. Conceivably the IO imperative in the early 1800 was something like the OP one, but with the additional element =re following it. The OP imperative can be extended (for male speakers anyway) by =hau, which is essentially the declarative. Sort of like "yep!" at the end of a sentence, maybe. And sort of like the =re in IO, except that the =re is always there are ends up surviving as the only element visible. <br> <br>As far as female speech forms replacing male speech forms, this is actually something that can happen. Or the reverse. And apart from apparently straight up changes like that, it is also possible that the difference between the two forms was actually something like a strong suggestion (=ka=re) vs. a milder, politer one (=a=re) and men are more culturally enabled to make strong suggestions. However, fashions in these things change continually. In general the sentence final particles are highly unstable in Siouan languages, and even closely related languages (or the same language at different periods) have different systems. <br> <br>It was suggested that ka might be 'yon'. We could even guess that ka (or ga) in an imperative might actually be historically the ga demonstrative, used as an imperative particle. Sort of "eat, that, do it!" I'm kind of reminded of the use of ese in Chicano Spanish, though I think that is more of a male declarative. I've never really figured it out! <br> <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><hr size=3 width="100%" align=center></span></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 22:30:11 -0600<br>From: <a href="mailto:sky@LEGENDREADERS.COM">sky@LEGENDREADERS.COM</a><br>Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Aho!<br>To: <a href="mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu">SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Yes, "naha" is an article going along the lines of "the", "that which", "the one who", etc.</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>You've given me a lot to think about and a lot of terminology that I'll have to wrap my head around since I'm not familiar with it.</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>My assistants and I spent over 3 hours today tracking down all the instances of Merrill and Hamilton's use of this -ga/-ka and mapped them to a grid on a large dry-erase board in an effort to try to find some kind of common element among all of them. Unfortunately we had no luck. We tried to think of everything we could think of when it came to those verbs. Were they transitive or intransitive? Animate or inanimate objects? Singular or plural? Was the object "known" to the speaker (meaning was the speaker referring to something specific...sort of along the lines of the idea of "that" I mentioned earlier)? Of course we know that we aren't looking for every possible criteria since there are many we don't know about (like some of the ideas you mentioned).</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I've mentioned several of our theories such as "that", "now", "in like manner", etc. But while we were plugging away I was perusing Dorsey's vocabulary slips and found this:</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>k'a (masc) (adverb) - of action in past time, not continuing into the present</span></b><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>And the example he gives is:</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Swagaxe k'a - you did write then (but you do not write now)</span></b><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>So in this context, I wonder if perhaps it could be along the lines of (to use an example from before) "Look at the snake" perhaps with the idea that you were looking at the snake before but aren't now and I want you to do so again. This may not be correct though since Dorsey mentions "see also" and has the endings "ke", "ki", etc. so this may represent the end of a statement and not simply an adverb that can be used where needed.</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Dorsey also has a rather enigmatic term "kare" (or perhaps "k'are") where he mentions "It seems to imply that the thought or desire was not gratified" but he doesn't just list this term with that explanation but rather just uses it with examples such as:</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Ji kare hįrawi - we thought that he would have come hither (but he did not come)</span></b><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I'm noting that this is after the verb that they want to attach this to which matches the placement of the enigmatic -ga/-ka. So along these lines, perhaps it could be "Look at the snake" with the idea of I wanted you to look at the snake but you didn't so I am requesting/commanding again since you didn't do it before.</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Yet another couple theories to add to this :).</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Sky</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;border-color:currentColor currentColor'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Siouan Linguistics [<a href="mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu">mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>John Koontz<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 5, 2014 9:00 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu">SIOUAN@listserv.unl.edu</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Aho!</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>I would guess this pair contrasts something analogous to Omaha-Ponca 'to say' vs. 'to say to'. The 'say' stems are highly irregular in Omaha-Ponca like most Siouan, but underlyingly they are something like e=...he vs. e=gi=...he. So the first persons are ehe 'I said it' (from something like Proto-Dhegiha *e=phe) vs. egiphe 'I said (it) to him'. The third persons are a=i 'they said' vs. ega=i 'they said to him'. I've reconstructed the plural from memory of the logic of the system. What I remember is the unpluralized from ege (e=g(i)...(h)e). The gi element is the dative marker of course and the weird thing about (OP) 'say' is that that comes *before* the pronoun. When gi is followed by the root (h)e it contracts with it. I'm not sure the root is really -he in the third person. The first and second persons are clearly built on e=(gi)=...he, but the inclusive is usually from another verb entirely, and the third person behaves like e by itself in the simple stem and e=g(i)=...e in the dative. The initial e= is presumably an incorporated e 'the aforesaid'. And, of course, this is the quoting verb that follows a quotation. There's a form with initial ga 'yonder' that is used preceding a quotation. The third person is essentially always seen as a=(nothing) or a=i or a=bi with the plural-proximate marker following e and conditioning the a-grade of the stem. (So you almost never get a singular looking form, and if you did it would be just e, and so hard to know from a demonstrative e.) The =(nothing) form of the plural-proximate is current now when no other particle follows. Dorsey always has a=i or a=bi (the latter when the quotation is itself quoted in some way). <br><br>Anyway, making allowances, I hope, for my poor grasp of IO, I make these<br><br>e=wa-a naha 'the one who says something'<br>vs. e=wa-g(i)-a naha 'the one who says (something) to someone'<br><br>I hope I correctly remember naha as an article of some sort. If not ...<br><br>When you add a dative to something then the object is the dative object and the "direct object" sort of falls out of the agreement pattern. Sometimes it hangs around in the sentence as a noun (or quotation) without governing anything in the verb. What the relationalists called a chomeur. <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><hr size=3 width="100%" align=center></span></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I may have found a clue for "ka." Dorsey has the term:</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>e-wa-na-ha - the speaker; the one speaking</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Then he has the term:</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>e wa-ka-na-ha - the one who is meant; the person addressed</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I'm not sure how (or even if) this is related to the "ka" I am asking about but I'm trying to look at it in different ways to see if it fits somehow.</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Sky Campbell, B. A.</span></b><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Language Director</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Otoe-Missouria Tribe</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>580-723-4466 ext. 111</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><a href="mailto:sky@omtribe.org">sky@omtribe.org</a></span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal>-- Manage your subscription at <a href="http://listserv.unl.edu" target="_blank">http://listserv.unl.edu</a>. 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