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In our 1978 paper "verbs in American Sign Language " (SLS), Fischer & Gough discussed "locational" verbs, but as Padden noted, they were ambiguous as to whether they were "agreeing" with the subject or the object. For example, if one signs ASL WANT close to the addressee rather than in neutral space, it is unclear whether someone wants the addressee or whether the addressee wants something.<div><br><div> <span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Times; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Times; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><div>Susan D. Fischer</div><div><a href="mailto:Susan.Fischer@rit.edu">Susan.Fischer@rit.edu</a></div><div><br></div><div>Center for Research on Language</div><div>UCSD</div><div><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></span></span> </div><br><div><div>On Jan 9, 2008, at 12:45 AM, Adam C Schembri wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite">Scholastica<div>Padden (11983, 1988) does recognise that some so-called plain verbs can be modified spatially, but she does not consider these to be examples of agreement verbs because the spatial modifications do not always unambiguously identify agent/source versus patient/goal (see her work for the details). You will probably find similar examples in HKSL. Engberg-Pedersen (1993) is one of the few scholars to discuss this subtype of verb sign - she refers to them as 'pragmatic agreement verbs'. </div><div>In our work on Auslan, we refer to these signs as 'locatable indicating verbs' (signs in which the whole sign may be displaced in space but in which beginning and end points do not necessarily identify agent/source and patient/goal) versus 'directional indicating verbs' (which may begin and end at locations associated with agent/source and patient/goal). Statistical analysis of indicating verbs in data collected from a corpus of Auslan narratives suggest that locatable indicating verbs do indeed exhibit spatial modification, but significantly much less often than directional indicating verbs. </div><div>Note that we use Liddell's (2003) term 'indicating verb' because we share his view that these signs do not show person agreement, a view supported by Greville Corbett's (2006) recent book on the typology of agreement systems. </div><div>Adam</div><div>PS My understanding is that Padden's term 'plain verb' was meant to contrast these signs with those she claimed showed spatial modifications for person ('agreeing/agreement verbs') or locative information ('spatial verbs') and was not related to any claims about aspectual modifications.<br><div apple-content-edited="true"> <span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; -khtml-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><div>--</div><div>Adam C Schembri, PhD</div><div>Senior Research Fellow</div><div>Deafness, Cognition and Language (DCAL) Research Centre</div><div>University College London</div><div>49 Gordon Square</div><div>London WC1H 0PD</div><div>United Kingdom</div><div>Tel: +44 20 7679 8680</div><div><a href="http://www.ucl.ac.uk/dcal">http://www.ucl.ac.uk/dcal</a></div><div><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></span></div></span> </div><br><div><div>On 9 Jan 2008, at 08:04, Daniela Happ wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div lang="DE" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div class="Section1"><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; ">Hi Scholastica,<o:p></o:p></span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; "><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div><p class="StandardBibliographie12" style="margin-top: 8pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 8pt; margin-left: 1cm; text-align: justify; text-indent: -1cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; "><font size="2" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; ">in my research I found that the so called plain verbs aren´t really plain. They contain morphemes of person and space, f.e. the DGS (German Sign Language) verb BEZAHLEN (to pay). But the person/space morphemes aren´t strong enough to identify exactly personal agreement or space agreement. In my work I call these verbs weak agreement verbs (schwach kongruente Verben). I´m sorry, my work is in German and not English, but if you understand German, contact me and I will send you an excerpt of the article I wrote with a colleague (D.Happ & M.-O. Vorköper 2005:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><font color="black"><span style="color: black; ">Einige Bemerkungen zur syntaktischen und morphologischen Repräsentation von Numerus in Deutscher Gebärdensprache.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font></span></font><font size="2" color="black"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; ">In: Leuninger, Helen & Daniela Happ (Hrsg.): Gebärdensprachen: Struktur, Erwerb, Verwendung (Linguistische Berichte. Sonderheft 13). Hamburg: Buske, P. 97 ff.)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="StandardBibliographie12" style="margin-top: 8pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 8pt; margin-left: 1cm; text-align: justify; text-indent: -1cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; "><font size="2" color="black" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; ">To all: sorry for my ill english.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="StandardBibliographie12" style="margin-top: 8pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 8pt; margin-left: 1cm; text-align: justify; text-indent: -1cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; "><font size="2" color="black" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; ">Best regards,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="StandardBibliographie12" style="margin-top: 8pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 8pt; margin-left: 1cm; text-align: justify; text-indent: -1cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; "><font size="2" color="black" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; ">Daniela<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; "><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; "><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; "><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align: center; margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; "><hr size="3" width="100%" align="center" tabindex="-1"></span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; font-weight: bold; ">Von:</span></font></b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:slling-l-bounces@majordomo.valenciacc.edu" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">slling-l-bounces@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[<a href="mailto:slling-l-bounces@majordomo.valenciacc.edu" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">mailto:slling-l-bounces@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">Im Auftrag von<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b>Schola Lam<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">Gesendet:</span></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Dienstag, 8. Januar 2008 17:54<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">An:</span></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>A list for linguists interested in signed languages<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">Betreff:</span></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [SLLING-L] Plain verbs in signed languages</span></font><o:p></o:p></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; "><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; ">Hi everyone,<o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; "> <o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; ">I think I need to rephrase my question. Sorry for any misunderstandings caused.<o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; "> <o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; ">I tried to adopt Padden's (1983, 1988) verb classification for my HKSL data. Yet I want to clarify the notion plain verbs. I wonder if what have been called plain verbs may not be really "plain" in terms of morphology (e.g. verb agreement, aspect, etc) when more studies are done on ASL and other signed languages.<o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; "> <o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; ">Did anyone observe that the so-called plain verbs may actually be marked with morphemes in signed languages?<o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; "> <o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; ">Scholastica<o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; "><br><b><i><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic; ">"Mark A. Mandel" <<a href="mailto:mamandel@ldc.upenn.edu" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">mamandel@ldc.upenn.edu</a>></span></i></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div><blockquote style="border-top-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-bottom-style: none; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(16, 16, 255); border-left-width: 1.5pt; padding-top: 0cm; padding-right: 0cm; padding-bottom: 0cm; padding-left: 3pt; margin-left: 3pt; margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; ">"Scholastica" (Nini Hoiting?) wrote:<br><br>#I am a research student who works on Hong Kong Sign Language. My focus of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>#study is verbs. I would like to confirm if plain verbs are generally<br>#unmarked for verb agreement and spatial locations.<br><br>Dan Slobin answered:<br><br>#By defnition, a "plain verb" is one that cannot move in space, and so it<br>#cannot mark agreement and spatial locations in itself. But in many sign<br>#languages (including Sign Language of the Netherlands, Taiwanese Sign<br>#Language, and others), there are "auxiliary" verbs that accompany a "plain"<br>#verb. Such accompanying verbs do move in space to indicate relations such<br>#as source-goal, agent-patient, and so forth.<br><br>Denise Wetzler added:<br><br>#In American Sign Language, verbs move. The movement itself contains a great<br>#amount of information. If want to show that I will go from my house to the<br>#bank and then to the library, these three locations are first established in<br>#the signing space. How I sign the verb 'go-to' then will show where I<br>#started from; went to; and where I ended up. [...]<br><br><br>It's essential to know what Scholastica means by "plain verb". Dan is evidently<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>assuming that S. has the same definition for it that he does.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br><br>A sign that does not move in space can nevertheless mark agreement with a<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>spatial location, by its orientation and possibly its location as well. Example:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>ASL PITY (open-8 handshape, palm toward object, middle finger repeatedly<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>bending).<br><br>Clarification of Denise's answer: in ASL, *many* verbs move [in space], but by<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>no means all of them.<br><br>-- Mark A. Mandel<br>Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania<br><br>_______________________________________________<br>SLLING-L mailing list<br><a href="mailto:SLLING-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">SLLING-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</a><br><a href="http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/slling-l" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/slling-l</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></div></blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; "><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div><p style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; "> Send instant messages to your online friends<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div>_______________________________________________<br>SLLING-L mailing list<br><a href="mailto:SLLING-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">SLLING-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</a><br><a href="http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/slling-l" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/slling-l</a><br></div></span></blockquote></div><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">_______________________________________________</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">SLLING-L mailing list</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><a href="mailto:SLLING-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">SLLING-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</a></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><a href="http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/slling-l">http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/slling-l</a></div> </blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>