<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Dan appears to be answering a question from 2007 - not sure what's going on here?!<div>Please note that Navaho does not actually have classifier constructions, as discussed in Engberg-Pedersen (1993) and Schembri (2003). </div><div>Best,</div><div>Adam<br><div apple-content-edited="true"> <span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><div>---</div><div>Adam C Schembri, PhD</div><div>Project Director, British Sign Language Corpus Project</div><div>DCAL Research Centre</div><div>University College London </div><div>49 Gordon Square London WC1H 0PD UK</div><div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; "><a href="http://www.dcal.ucl.ac.uk/team/adam_schembri.html">www.dcal.ucl.ac.uk/team/adam_schembri.html</a></div></div><div><a href="http://www.bslcorpusproject.org">www.bslcorpusproject.org</a></div><div><a href="http://www.slls.eu">www.slls.eu</a></div><div><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><br></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span> </div><br><div><div>On 29 Jul 2009, at 16:54, Fischer Susan wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">I didn't see the original question, but another angle on this is that signed languages (at least urban sign languages) and some Athapaskan languages like Navaho have *predicate* classifiers, which are attached to the verb; Japanese and Chinese have *numerical* classifiers, which are attach to numerals and are separate from the noun and the verb, and other languages (Swahili, etc.) have *nominal* classifiers, which are attached to the noun though they may also be expressed on the verb. Grammatical gender (some languages have 2, others have 3, others have quite a few) may also bear some resemblance to nominal classifiers. All of these types of classifiers classify nouns but where that classificat ion ifferently.<div><br><div apple-content-edited="true"> <span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Times; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Times; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations- in-effec ; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><div>Susan D. Fischer</div><div><a href="mailto:Susan.Fischer@rit.edu">Susan.Fischer@rit.edu</a></div><div>Center for Research on Language</div><div>UCSD</div><div><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></span></div></span> </div><br><div><div>On Jun 26, 2009, at 7:55 PM, Dan Jinguji wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"> <div style="PADDING-LEFT: 10px; PADDING-RIGHT: 10px; PADDING-TOP: 15px" id="MailContainerBody" leftmargin="0" topmargin="0" canvastabstop="true" name="Compose message area"> <div><font color="#000080" size="2" face="Comic Sans MS">Here's a complete stab in the dark. I think it's because of the way that they behave / are used. </font></div> <div><font color="#000080" size="2" face="Comic Sans MS"></font> </div> <div><font color="#000080" size="2" face="Comic Sa ns MS">T counter words used in a several (actually, I think it's a number of) Asian languages. In fact, these counter terms are typically called 'classifiers'. For example, in Japanese, when I want to talk about the fact that there are kittens in room, I would say something like 'room-in-topic, kitten exist', if I wanted to say that there were three of them, 'room-in-topic, kitten three-CL exist". Now, this word glossed as 'CL' ('hiki') does not mean kitten, rather it is used when referring to (counting) any relatively small animals. So, I could use the same word for mice, ferrets, dogs, etc. There is a separate word ('tou') for large animals, (not unlike talking about "14 head of cattle").</font></div> <div><font color="#000080" size="2" face="Comic Sans MS"></font> </div> <div><font color="#000080" size="2" face="Comic Sans MS">Now, things get very interesting when we talk about ... say, pencils. There is a classifier for long, thin things. It's also used for shots (injec tions), that way, it's rather like the "1" ASL classifier. It can be used to refer to any long, thin thing. And, you'll notice that it cannot stand on it's own. The noun must be introduced before, either through conversational context, but generally by direct inclusion in the discourse. </font></div> <div><font color="#000080" size="2" face="Comic Sans MS"></font> </div> <div><font color="#000080" size="2" face="Comic Sans MS">Another example is "3" to mean vehicle. It does not mean, 'car' or 'bus' or 'truck' or ... but once the noun has been introduced, it can be used to represent it. Is this making any sense ... or am I just blathering on.</font></div> <div> </div> <div><font color="#000080" size="2" face="Comic Sans MS">(rather than risk of blathering</font> <font color="#000080" size="2" face="Comic Sans MS">incomprehensibly ... I stop now ... comments?)</font></div> <div><font color="#000080" size="2" face="Comic Sans MS">&nb r="#000080" size="2" face="Comic Sans MS">Dan</font></div> <div><font color="#000080" size="2" face="Comic Sans MS"></font> </div> <div><font color="#000080" size="2" face="Comic Sans MS"></font> </div> <div style="FONT: 10pt Tahoma"> <div style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5"> <div style="font-color: black"><b>From:</b> <a title="charityh@COMCAST.NET" href="mailto:charityh@COMCAST.NET">charityh@COMCAST.NET</a> </div> <div><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, July 22, 2007 21:44</div> <div><b>To:</b> <a title="slling-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu" href="mailto:slling-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">slling-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</a> </div> <div><b>Subject:</b> [slling-l] (rephrased) Two questions</div></div></div> <div><font color="#000080" size="2" face="Comic Sans MS"></font><font color="#000080" size="2" face="Comic Sans MS"></font><br></div> <div>Sorry, folks...</div> <div> </div> <div>Let me re-phrase my #2 question below.</div> <div> </div> <div>What i actually meant is could som eone exp in ASL are classifiers and NOT a member of noun class? And i want an explanation for vice versa as well.</div> <div> </div> <div>Thanks,</div> <div>Sarah</div> <div> </div> <blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px">-------------- Original message -------------- <br>From: <a href="mailto:charityh@COMCAST.NET">charityh@COMCAST.NET</a> <br> <div>Got two questions here...</div> <div> </div> <div>1) How old is English, counting Old English? I couldn't find this information on Wikipedia.</div> <div> </div> <div>2) Could someone give me examples of noun classifiers and noun classes for ASL? To me, it seems as if some of today's discussed classifiers in ASL are actually noun classes or vice versa, but i may be wrong. By the way, would the agent marker in ASL (open & flat hand, both hands, palms facing each other, moving down from upper chest to lower torso) be placed in the noun class?</div> <d iv=""> </d></blockquote></div> _______________________________________________<br>SLLING-L mailing list<br><a href="mailto:SLLING-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">SLLING-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</a><br><a href="http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/slling-l">http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/slling-l</a><br></blockquote></div><br></div></div> _______________________________________________<br>SLLING-L mailing list<br><a href="mailto:SLLING-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">SLLING-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</a><br>http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/slling-l<br></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>