<html><head><base href="x-msg://113/"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Yes, Don, I meant an implicit first-person subject. Regarding <span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: handsetCondensed; font-size: 18px; ">EAT-FINISH JOHN, that could be analyzed as either topicalization of EAT-FINISH or focus movement of JOHN (à la Petronio).</span><div>
<span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Times; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Times; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><div>Susan D. Fischer</div><div><a href="mailto:Susan.Fischer@rit.edu">Susan.Fischer@rit.edu</a></div><div>+1-858-952-3447 (mobile)</div><div>drword563 (Skype)</div><div>drword354 (iChat/AIM)</div><div>+1-714-908-9824 (fax)</div><div>563 Orchid Lane</div><div>Del Mar, CA 92014</div><div><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div><div>Center for Research on Language</div><div>UCSD</div><div><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></span></span>
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<br><div><div>On Mar 4, 2011, at 12:34 PM, <a href="mailto:ben.karlin@yahoo.com">ben.karlin@yahoo.com</a> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Times; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); position: static; z-index: auto; "><div style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 16px; "><span style="font-size: 18px; "><font face="handsetCondensed">If asked the question EAT-FINISH WHO? wouldn't EAT-FINISH JOHN be a grammatical response? Or in conversation especially with children a series like EAT-FINISH MOMMY. EAT-FINISH DADDY. EAT-FINISH JOHN. could this not also be allowed?<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br></font></span><span style="font-size: 18px; "><font face="handsetCondensed"> That kind of stereotypical structure is not unheard of with children or the elderly. It also shows up in stories.<br></font></span><span style="font-size: 18px; "><font face="handsetCondensed"><br></font></span><span style="font-size: 18px; "><font face="handsetCondensed">This is my sense of how things work. Have I got it wrong?<br></font></span><span style="font-size: 18px; "><font face="handsetCondensed"><br></font></span><span style="font-size: 18px; "><font face="handsetCondensed">Ben Karlin<br></font></span><span style="font-size: 18px; "><font face="handsetCondensed">St Louis, MO</font></span></div><br><br>-----Original message-----<br><blockquote style="border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px; "><div style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 14px; "><b>From:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Albert Bickford <<a href="mailto:albert_bickford@SIL.ORG">albert_bickford@SIL.ORG</a>><b><br>To:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b><a href="mailto:SLLING-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACC.EDU">SLLING-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACC.EDU</a><b><br>Sent:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Fri, Mar 4, 2011 20:15:26 GMT+00:00<b><br>Subject:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Re: a Linguistics of ASL question -- grammar<br><br></div><div><div text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Another way to think about the situation is that the claim that VS order is impossible in intransitive clauses in ASL refers specifically to full (not pronominal) subjects. So, *EAT-FINISH JOHN</font><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>would be claimed to be bad. It is commonly the case that pronouns in languages (especially unstressed pronouns) can show up in places where nouns cannot, so claims about word order possibilities have to make clear whether they are talking about the possible positions of full NPs or also pronouns.<br><pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Albert Bickford
SIL International (Mexico program and Signed Language Leadership Team)
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:albert_bickford@sil.org">albert_bickford@sil.org</a>
</pre><br>On 2011/03/04 12:37 PM, Grushkin, Donald A wrote:<blockquote cite="mid:5193ECA5AB1D8A4B88577EECCBC9458B03AA665E48@sl8.saclink.csus.edu" type="cite"><pre wrap="">Thanks for the response, Susan.
If I understand you correctly, what you're saying is that in "EAT-FINISH", the subject (me) is implied or "understood", so the PRO.1 is a copy of the implied subject?
________________________________________
From: linguists interested in signed languages [<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:SLLING-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACC.EDU">SLLING-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACC.EDU</a>] On Behalf Of Fischer Susan [<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:susan.fischer@RIT.EDU">susan.fischer@RIT.EDU</a>]
Sent: Friday, March 04, 2011 10:13 AM
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:SLLING-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACC.EDU">SLLING-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACC.EDU</a>
Subject: Re: a Linguistics of ASL question -- grammar
Sentences like that could be analyzed as an example of subject pronoun copy (discussed by Padden), since first person subject is often zero, and as far as I can tell, has no relation to the presence of FINISH. It would be restricted to unstressed pronouns (you couldn't substitute MYSELF for IX1, for example). I actually talked about a broader category of post-sentential tags in my very old paper on word order in ASL (Sign language and linguistic universals, recently reprinted in SLL), though I didn't call them that. They have to be unstressed. Note also that a language like Japanese, which is strictly verb-final and more generally head-final, permits postposed topics (without the topic marker wa) under the same circumstances, e.g.,
baka da nee, watasi (falling intonation, low stress)
dumb is right? me
I'm sure dumb, aren't I.
SDF
Susan D. Fischer
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Susan.Fischer@rit.edu">Susan.Fischer@rit.edu</a><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:Susan.Fischer@rit.edu"><mailto:Susan.Fischer@rit.edu></a>
Center for Research on Language
UCSD
On Mar 4, 2011, at 9:39 AM, Grushkin, Donald A wrote:
Teaching ASL Linguistics again. In Linguistics of ASL (textbook by Valli, Lucas & Mulrooney), it says that in simple sentences with plain intransitive verbs, it is not possible to use VS (Verb Subject) structure. A couple of students pointed out that one can sign EAT-FINISH PRO.1, or RUN-FINISH PRO.1. On the face of it, these do seem to be Verb Subject structures. I hypothesized that the completive FINISH might be changing the structure of the sentence so the rule is not violated. However, I'd like to check with you, the real linguistics experts on this.
--Don Grushkin
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