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<DIV>Please change my email address from <A
href="mailto:loubett@aol.com">loubett@aol.com</A> to <A
href="mailto:bettyekray@aol.com">bettyekray@aol.com</A>. Thank you, Bettye</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 7/5/2012 9:00:49 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
LISTSERV@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><FONT
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" color=#000000 size=2 face=Arial>There
are 3 messages totalling 1516 lines in this issue.<BR><BR>Topics of the
day:<BR><BR> 1. AW: Antw: Re: SW-HamNoSys (2)<BR> 2. Antw: Re:
SW-HamNoSys<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date:
Thu, 5 Jul 2012 08:35:10 +0200<BR>From:
Franz.Dotter@UNI-KLU.AC.AT<BR>Subject: AW: Antw: Re: SW-HamNoSys<BR><BR>This
is a MIME message. If you are reading this text, you may want to <BR>consider
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quoted-printable<BR><BR>Dear Stefan and others,<BR>=20<BR>I really estimate
your approach to use creative means in order to teach<BR>German (or any other
spoken language to deaf students). I'm only<BR>pleading for correct info. What
disturbed me was Valeries sentence: "can<BR>create documents that translate
spoken language textbooks, into written<BR>sign language". I think all agree
that a formulation like: "the program<BR>can a) convert glossed sign language
sentences into SignWriting, b)<BR>convert single written German words into DGS
or Signed<BR>Germanequivalents, given in SignWriting c) a written German
sentence is<BR>converted word-by-word into DGS and Signed German equivalents,
given in<BR>SignWriting, by that offering a Signed German version of the
original<BR>sentence". These achievements are great enough and many teachers
will<BR>take them over gratefully; therefore we need not say "there
is<BR>translation from German to DGS".<BR>=20<BR>To give an example: If you
take a German sentence like "Ich werde<BR>gehen" =3D (I will go), you get the
auxiliary verb "werden" also as a sig=<BR>n<BR>(which is clearly Signed
German; and has some pedagogical advanthge in<BR>some settings, but is not
DGS)<BR>=20<BR>Concerning the mouthings: I understand the difference between
the full<BR>"Mundbildschrift" and the hints given in DELEGS/SignWriting now.
But the<BR>fact remains that these hints do not represent default mouthings as
they<BR>are used in DGS; they are still hints towards spoken language
(to<BR>repeat: I do neither critisise this from a pedagocical nor from
a<BR>bilingual perspective; I only want to state that these elements are
not<BR>(Greman) sign language elements).<BR>=20<BR>Best
Regards<BR>=20<BR>Franz<BR><BR>>>> Stefan
W=C3=B6hrmann<stefanwoehrmann@GEBAERDENSCHRIFT.DE> 7/4/2012
11=<BR>:46<BR>>>><BR><BR>Hello Valerie, Franz and everyone
=E2=80=93=20<BR>=20<BR>It is just as you say Valerie and I want to repeat
that.=20<BR>=20<BR>Delegs iss a wonderful tool to create bilingual materials
and =E2=80=9CIt<BR>depends on the skill of the writer (translator). It also
depends on what<BR>the writer wants to do.=E2=80=9D<BR>=20<BR>So of course you
can create translations from an idea expressed in<BR>spoken language to the
same idea expressed in DGS. The wonderful thing<BR>is that you can rely on a
written document which shows perfectly the<BR>writers idea how to sign this
given concept or that shows how a given<BR>sign language performance can be
translated to spoken language.=20<BR>=20<BR>Unfortunately there is obviously a
misunderstanding in your idea that<BR>the
=E2=80=9CMundbilder=E2=80=9D symbolise sounds within the
SignWritin=<BR>g face =E2=80=93 they<BR>do
not!!!=20<BR>=20<BR>Woehrmanns-speechwriting should not be mixed up with my
invention of<BR>=E2=80=9CMundbildschrift=E2=80=9D a system that supports the
articulation=<BR>process in<BR>deaf students...=20<BR>=20<BR>The
=E2=80=9CMundbilder=E2=80=9D in SignWriting (GebaerdenSchrift) are si=<BR>mply
meant to<BR>document mouth- tongue =E2=80=93 lip movements - it is
a guessing game =<BR>like<BR>lipreading =E2=80=93 but including the
information coming from your hands=<BR>it is<BR>easy to
understand.=20<BR>=20<BR>Once more =E2=80=93 Delegs - is a tool that
allows anybody to create wri=<BR>tten<BR>documents of Sign language DGS,
ASL, and spoken language. Why should<BR>this not be a translation? The
scribe is just asked to write what he<BR>wants to write...
smile.=20<BR>=20<BR>Stefan=20<BR>=20<BR>=20<BR>=20<BR>=20<BR><BR><BR>Von:
linguists interested in signed
languages<BR>[mailto:SLLING-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU] Im Auftrag von
Valerie<BR>Sutton<BR>Gesendet: Mittwoch, 4. Juli 2012 16:03<BR>An:
SLLING-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU<BR>Betreff: Re: Antw: Re:
SW-HamNoSys<BR><BR>=20<BR>Hello Franz and everyone -<BR><BR>=20<BR><BR>It
depends on the skill of the writer (translator). It also depends on<BR>what
the writer wants to do.<BR><BR>=20<BR><BR>If the software is used without a
knowledge of sign languages, and how<BR>to translate, then you are right that
any software and any writing<BR>system can be used
incorrectly.<BR><BR>=20<BR><BR>But a translator who knows sign languages and
spoken languages well,<BR>and knows how to translate between the languages,
and knows how to use<BR>the SignWriting-related software to produce good
translations, can<BR>produce linguistically correct documents using any
SignWriting-related<BR>software.<BR><BR>=20<BR><BR>In the case of SignPuddle,
we have an Editor called the SignText<BR>Editor. In the SignText Editor we can
write directly in sign languages<BR>without any connection to spoken
languages. We can also then save each<BR>individual sign within a sign
language document, into a dictionary,<BR>which can then be accessed by DELEGS
software.<BR><BR>=20<BR><BR>Inside DELEGS software, the writer can then write
the gloss for the<BR>sign language sentences that will access or bring in the
signs from the<BR>special SignPuddle file created for the work=E2=80=A6so the
writer in DEL=<BR>EGS is<BR>not required to do Signed German - a translation
that provides proper<BR>spoken German and proper DGS can be created using a
combination of<BR>SignPuddle's SignText Editor, SignPuddle dictionaries, and
the DELEG's<BR>Editor.<BR><BR>=20<BR><BR>I know the DELEGs developers are
planning to produce their own Editor<BR>in time, but at the moment, this is
how it is being done=E2=80=A6<BR><BR>=20<BR><BR>Val
;-)<BR><BR>=20<BR><BR>-----------<BR><BR>=20<BR><BR>=20<BR><BR>On Jul 3, 2012,
at 11:48 PM, Franz.Dotter@UNI-KLU.AC.AT wrote:<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>Dear
colleagues,<BR><BR>=20<BR><BR>Concerning DELEGS you have to add that
"translate" is not the adequate<BR>word here: DELEGS simply puts a German word
into a SignWriting notation<BR>of an adequate DGS sign. If you use a real
German sentence, you create<BR>pure Signed German. Only if you use a correct
glossing of a signed<BR>sentence (i.e. if you know how the grammar of DGS),
you will get a<BR>grammatically acceptable DGS sentence. Moreover, the face is
enriched<BR>with a full notation of the sounds of the German word used (not
only a<BR>possible mouthing).<BR><BR>Both systems, the Woehrmann-system of
symbolising sounds within the<BR>SignWriting face as well as DELEGS do have
their merits for several<BR>educational settings and I would not like to
underscore the creative<BR>work contained in them.<BR><BR>But: There is no
TRANSLATION from anywhere to somewhere. As there are<BR>some similar
advertisements of "translation" in the context of sign<BR>languages /cf. e.g.
also http://www.pslt.org/), I'm a little bit<BR>concerned about the result of
such advertisements when people from<BR>outside learn that all these
announcemenst were not true. Please, tell<BR>the linguistic
truth!<BR><BR>=20<BR><BR>Best Regards<BR><BR>=20<BR><BR>Franz
Dotter<BR><BR>=20<BR><BR><BR>1. Now, there is new software from the University
of Hamburg and C1 WPS<BR>Workplace Solutions, called DELEGS, that coordinates
with the SignPuddle<BR>DGS dictionary, Stefan and other teachers of Deaf
students in Germany,<BR>can create documents that translate spoken language
textbooks, into<BR>written sign language, so their students can understand
both languages<BR>better and can grasp the content of the textbooks. So the
German<BR>SignPuddles online are geared towards Deaf Education, and are used
with<BR>this
software:<BR><BR>DELEGS<BR>http://www.delegs.com/delegseditor/<BR><BR>DELEGS
stands for "German Learning with SignWriting" but in German
of<BR>course=E2=80=A6I believe it is "Deutsch lernen mit GebaerdenSchrift"
(Ste=<BR>fan and<BR>others, please correct me if I am wrong ;-))<BR><BR>Anyway
- that specific database is impressive for its
educational<BR>purpose=E2=80=A6<BR><BR>THANK YOU, to all of you, who have
created DELEGS=E2=80=A6and thank you t=<BR>o<BR>Stefan Woehrmann for making
this possible<BR><BR>=20<BR><BR>--=__Part6947DE8E.1__=<BR>Content-Type:
text/html;<BR>charset=utf-8<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding:
quoted-printable<BR>Content-Description:
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-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space=<BR>"
lang=3DDE link=3Dblue vLink=3Dblue><BR><DIV>Dear Stefan and
others,</DIV><BR><DIV> </DIV><BR><DIV>I
really estimate your approach to use creative means in order to =<BR>teach
German (or any other spoken language to deaf students). I'm only =<BR>pleading
for correct info. What disturbed me was Valeries sentence: "can =<BR>create
documents that translate spoken language textbooks, into written =<BR>sign
language". I think all agree that a formulation like: "the program =<BR>can a)
convert glossed sign language sentences into SignWriting, b)
=<BR>convert single written German words into DGS or Signed
Germanequivalen=<BR>ts, given in SignWriting c) a written German
sentence is converted =<BR>word-by-word into DGS and Signed German
equivalents, given in SignWriting, =<BR>by that offering a Signed German
version of the original sentence". These =<BR>achievements are great enough
and many teachers will take them over =<BR>gratefully; therefore we need not
say "there is translation from German to
=<BR>DGS".</DIV><BR><DIV> </DIV><BR><DIV>To
give an example: If you take a German sentence like "Ich werde =<BR>gehen" =3D
(I will go), you get the auxiliary verb "werden" also as a sign =<BR>(which is
clearly Signed German; and has some pedagogical advanthge in =<BR>some
settings, but is not
DGS)</DIV><BR><DIV> </DIV><BR><DIV>Concerning
the mouthings: I understand the difference between the =<BR>full
"Mundbildschrift" and the hints given in DELEGS/SignWriting now. But =<BR>the
fact remains that these hints do not represent default mouthings as =<BR>they
are used in DGS; they are still hints towards spoken language (to
=<BR>repeat: I do neither critisise this from a pedagocical nor from
a =<BR>bilingual perspective; I only want to state that these elements are not
=<BR>(Greman) sign language
elements).</DIV><BR><DIV> </DIV><BR><DIV>Best
Regards</DIV><BR><DIV> </DIV><BR><DIV>Franz<BR><BR>>>>
Stefan W=C3=B6hrmann<stefanwoehrmann@GEBA=<BR>ERDENSCHRIFT.DE>
7/4/2012 11:46 >>><BR></DIV><BR><DIV
class=3DSection1><BR>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT color=#3d0a00 size=3 face=3DArial><SPAN
=<BR>style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"
lang=3DEN-GB>He=<BR>llo Valerie, Franz and everyone =E2=80=93
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P><BR>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT color=#3d0a00 size=3 face=3DArial><SPAN
=<BR>style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"
lang=3DEN-GB><o=<BR>:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P><BR>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT color=#3d0a00 size=3 face=3DArial><SPAN
=<BR>style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"
lang=3DEN-GB>It=<BR>is just as you say Valerie and I want to repeat that.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></=<BR>FONT></P><BR>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT color=#3d0a00 size=3 face=3DArial><SPAN
=<BR>style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"
lang=3DEN-GB><o=<BR>:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P><BR>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT color=#3d0a00 size=3 face=3DArial><SPAN
=<BR>style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"
lang=3DEN-GB>De=<BR>legs iss a wonderful tool to create bilingual materials
and =E2=80=9C</SPAN=<BR>></FONT><B><U><FONT color=#3d0a00><SPAN
style=3D"COLOR: black; FONT-WEIGHT:=<BR>bold" lang=3DEN-GB>It depends on
the skill of the writer (translator). It =<BR>also depends on what the writer
wants to do</SPAN></FONT></U></B><FONT ="<BR">color=3Dblack><SPAN
style=3D"COLOR: black"
lang=3DEN-GB>.=E2=80=9D<o:p></o:=<BR>p></SPAN></FONT></P><BR>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT color=#3d0a00 size=3 face='3D"Times'
New="<BR">Roman"><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"
lang=3DEN-GB><o:p>&nbs=<BR>p;</o:p></SPAN></FONT></P><BR>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT color=#3d0a00 size=3 face='3D"Times'
New="<BR">Roman"><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"
lang=3DEN-GB>So of =<BR>course you can create translations from an idea
expressed in spoken =<BR>language to the same idea expressed in DGS. The
wonderful thing is that =<BR>you can rely on a written document which shows
perfectly the writers idea =<BR>how to sign this given concept or that shows
how a given sign language =<BR>performance can be translated to spoken
language. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT>=<BR></P><BR>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT color=#3d0a00 size=3 face='3D"Times'
New="<BR">Roman"><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"
lang=3DEN-GB><o:p>&nbs=<BR>p;</o:p></SPAN></FONT></P><BR>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT color=#3d0a00 size=3 face='3D"Times'
New="<BR">Roman"><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"
lang=3DEN-GB>Unfortuna=<BR>tely there is obviously a misunderstanding in
your idea that the =E2=80=9CM=<BR>undbilder=E2=80=9D
</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=#3d0a00 size=3
="<BR">face=3DTahoma><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; COLOR: black;
FONT-SIZE: =<BR>10pt" lang=3DEN-GB>symbolise sounds within the SignWriting
face =E2=80=93 =<BR>they do not!!!
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P><BR>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT color=#3d0a00 size=3 face=3DTahoma><SPAN
=<BR>style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"
lang=3DEN-GB><=<BR>o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P><BR>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT color=#3d0a00 size=3 face=3DTahoma><SPAN
=<BR>style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"
lang=3DEN-GB>W=<BR>oehrmanns-speechwriting should not be mixed up with my
invention of =<BR>=E2=80=9CMundbildschrift=E2=80=9D a system that supports the
articulation =<BR>process in deaf students...
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P><BR>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT color=#3d0a00 size=3 face=3DTahoma><SPAN
=<BR>style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"
lang=3DEN-GB><=<BR>o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P><BR>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT color=#3d0a00 size=3 face=3DTahoma><SPAN
=<BR>style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"
lang=3DEN-GB>T=<BR>he =E2=80=9CMundbilder=E2=80=9D in SignWriting
(GebaerdenSchrift) are =<BR>simply meant to document mouth- tongue =E2=80=93
lip movements =<BR>- it is a guessing game like lipreading
=E2=80=93 but including the =<BR>information coming from your hands it is easy
to understand. <o:p></o:p></S=<BR>PAN></FONT></P><BR>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT color=#3d0a00 size=3 face=3DTahoma><SPAN
=<BR>style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"
lang=3DEN-GB><=<BR>o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P><BR>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT color=#3d0a00 size=3 face=3DTahoma><SPAN
=<BR>style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"
lang=3DEN-GB>O=<BR>nce more =E2=80=93 Delegs - is a tool that
allows anybody to create =<BR>written documents of Sign language DGS, ASL,
and spoken language. =<BR>Why should this not be a translation? The
scribe is just asked to write =<BR>what he wants to write... smile.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P><BR>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT color=#3d0a00 size=3 face=3DTahoma><SPAN
=<BR>style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"
lang=3DEN-GB><=<BR>o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P><BR>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT color=#3d0a00 size=3 face=3DTahoma><SPAN
=<BR>style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"
lang=3DEN-GB>S=<BR>tefan
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P><BR>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT color=#3d0a00 size=3 face=3DTahoma><SPAN
=<BR>style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"
lang=3DEN-GB><=<BR>o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P><BR>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT size=3 face='3D"Times' New Roman?><SPAN
=<BR>style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"
lang=3DEN-GB><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P><BR>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT color=#3d0a00 size=3 face=3DArial><SPAN
=<BR>style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"
lang=3DEN-GB><o:=<BR>p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P><BR>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT color=#3d0a00 size=3 face=3DArial><SPAN
=<BR>style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"
lang=3DEN-GB><o:=<BR>p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P><BR><DIV><BR><DIV
style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: center" class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter><FONT
="<BR">size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE:
12pt"><BR><HR tabIndex=3D-1 align=3Dcenter SIZE=3D2
width=3D"100%"><BR></SPAN></FONT></DIV><BR>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><B><FONT size=3 face=3DTahoma><SPAN
style=3D"FONT-FA=<BR>MILY: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-WEIGHT:
bold">Von:</SPAN></FONT></B><FO=<BR>NT size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE:
=<BR>10pt"> linguists interested in signed languages
[mailto:SLLING-L@LISTSERV.V=<BR>ALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU] <B><SPAN
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Im Auftrag von =<BR></SPAN></B>Valerie
Sutton<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT:
bold">Gesendet:=<BR></SPAN></B> Mittwoch, 4. Juli 2012
16:03<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: =<BR>bold">An:</SPAN></B>
SLLING-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU<BR><B><SPAN
=<BR>style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Betreff:</SPAN></B> Re: Antw: Re:
SW-HamNoSys</=<BR>SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV><BR>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT size=3 face='3D"Times' New Roman?><SPAN
=<BR>style=3D"FONT-SIZE:
12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P><BR>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT size=3 face='3D"Times' New Roman?><SPAN
=<BR>style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Hello Franz and everyone
-<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FON=<BR>T></P><BR><DIV><BR>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT size=3 face='3D"Times' New Roman?><SPAN
=<BR>style=3D"FONT-SIZE:
12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV><BR><DIV><BR>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT size=3 face='3D"Times' New Roman?><SPAN
=<BR>style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">It depends on the skill of the writer
(translator=<BR>). It also depends on what the writer wants to
do.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT>=<BR></P></DIV><BR><DIV><BR>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT size=3 face='3D"Times' New Roman?><SPAN
=<BR>style=3D"FONT-SIZE:
12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV><BR><DIV><BR>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT size=3 face='3D"Times' New Roman?><SPAN
=<BR>style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">If the software is used without a knowledge
of =<BR>sign languages, and how to translate, then you are right that any
software =<BR>and any writing system can be used
incorrectly.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P=<BR>></DIV><BR><DIV><BR>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT size=3 face='3D"Times' New Roman?><SPAN
=<BR>style=3D"FONT-SIZE:
12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV><BR><DIV><BR>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT size=3 face='3D"Times' New Roman?><SPAN
=<BR>style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">But a translator who knows sign languages
and =<BR>spoken languages well, and knows how to translate between the
languages, =<BR>and knows how to use the SignWriting-related software to
produce good =<BR>translations, can produce linguistically correct documents
using any =<BR>SignWriting-related
software.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV><BR><DIV><BR>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT size=3 face='3D"Times' New Roman?><SPAN
=<BR>style=3D"FONT-SIZE:
12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV><BR><DIV><BR>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT size=3 face='3D"Times' New Roman?><SPAN
=<BR>style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">In the case of SignPuddle, we have an Editor
=<BR>called the SignText Editor. In the SignText Editor we can write directly
=<BR>in sign languages without any connection to spoken languages. We can also
=<BR>then save each individual sign within a sign language document, into a
=<BR>dictionary, which can then be accessed by DELEGS
software.<o:p></o:p></SPAN=<BR>></FONT></P></DIV><BR><DIV><BR>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT size=3 face='3D"Times' New Roman?><SPAN
=<BR>style=3D"FONT-SIZE:
12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV><BR><DIV><BR>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT size=3 face='3D"Times' New Roman?><SPAN
=<BR>style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Inside DELEGS software, the writer can then
=<BR>write the gloss for the sign language sentences that will access or bring
=<BR>in the signs from the special SignPuddle file created for the
work=E2=80=A6=<BR>so the writer in DELEGS is not required to do Signed German
- a translation=<BR>that provides proper spoken German and proper DGS can be
created using a =<BR>combination of SignPuddle's SignText Editor, SignPuddle
dictionaries, and =<BR>the DELEG's
Editor.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV><BR><DIV><BR>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT size=3 face='3D"Times' New Roman?><SPAN
=<BR>style=3D"FONT-SIZE:
12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV><BR><DIV><BR>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT size=3 face='3D"Times' New Roman?><SPAN
=<BR>style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">I know the DELEGs developers are planning to
=<BR>produce their own Editor in time, but at the moment, this is how it is
=<BR>being
done=E2=80=A6<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV><BR><DIV><BR>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT size=3 face='3D"Times' New Roman?><SPAN
=<BR>style=3D"FONT-SIZE:
12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV><BR><DIV><BR>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT size=3 face='3D"Times' New Roman?><SPAN
=<BR>style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Val
;-)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV><BR><DIV><BR>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT size=3 face='3D"Times' New Roman?><SPAN
=<BR>style=3D"FONT-SIZE:
12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV><BR><DIV><BR>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT size=3 face='3D"Times' New Roman?><SPAN
=<BR>style=3D"FONT-SIZE:
12pt">-----------<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV><BR><DIV><BR>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT size=3 face='3D"Times' New Roman?><SPAN
=<BR>style=3D"FONT-SIZE:
12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV><BR><DIV><BR>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT size=3 face='3D"Times' New Roman?><SPAN
=<BR>style=3D"FONT-SIZE:
12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P><BR><DIV><BR><DIV><BR>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT size=3 face='3D"Times' New Roman?><SPAN
=<BR>style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">On Jul 3, 2012, at 11:48 PM, <A
title='http://3D"mailto:Fr=<BR'
href='mip://0b837180/3D"mailto:Fr=<BR'>anz.Dotter@UNI-KLU.AC.AT">Franz.Dotter@UNI-KLU.AC.AT</A>
wrote:<o:p></o:p><=<BR>/SPAN></FONT></P></DIV><BR>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT size=3 face='3D"Times' New Roman?><SPAN
=<BR>style=3D"FONT-SIZE:
12pt"><BR><BR><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P><BR><DIV
style=3D"MARGIN: 3pt 3pt 0.75pt"><BR><DIV><BR>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT size=3 face=3DTahoma><SPAN
style=3D"FONT-FAMIL=<BR>Y: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Dear
colleagues,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></=<BR>DIV><BR><DIV><BR>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT size=3 face=3DTahoma><SPAN
style=3D"FONT-FAMIL=<BR>Y: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE:
10pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV><BR><DIV><BR>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT size=3 face=3DTahoma><SPAN
style=3D"FONT-FAMIL=<BR>Y: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Concerning DELEGS you
have to add that =<BR>"translate" is not the adequate word
here: DELEGS simply puts a =<BR>German word into a SignWriting
notation of an adequate DGS sign. If you =<BR>use a real German sentence, you
create pure Signed German. Only if =<BR>you use a correct glossing of
a signed sentence (i.e. if you know how the =<BR>grammar of DGS), you will get
a grammatically acceptable DGS =<BR>sentence. Moreover, the
face is enriched with a full notation of the =<BR>sounds of the German word
used (not only a possible
mouthing).<o:p></o:p></=<BR>SPAN></FONT></P></DIV><BR><DIV><BR>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT size=3 face=3DTahoma><SPAN
style=3D"FONT-FAMIL=<BR>Y: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Both systems, the
Woehrmann-system of =<BR>symbolising sounds within the SignWriting face as
well as DELEGS do have =<BR>their merits for several educational settings and
I would not like to =<BR>underscore the creative work contained in
them.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P=<BR>></DIV><BR><DIV><BR>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT size=3 face=3DTahoma><SPAN
style=3D"FONT-FAMIL=<BR>Y: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">But: There is no
TRANSLATION from anywhere to =<BR>somewhere. As there are some
similar advertisements of "translation" =<BR>in the context of sign languages
/cf. e.g. also <A title='http://3D"http://www.pslt.=<BR'
href='mip://0b837180/3D"http://www.pslt.=<BR'>org/">http://www.pslt.org/</A>),
I'm a little bit concerned about the =<BR>result of such advertisements when
people from outside learn that all =<BR>these announcemenst were not true.
Please, tell the linguistic
truth!<o:p><=<BR>/o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV><BR><DIV><BR>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT size=3 face=3DTahoma><SPAN
style=3D"FONT-FAMIL=<BR>Y: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE:
10pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV><BR><DIV><BR>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT size=3 face=3DTahoma><SPAN
style=3D"FONT-FAMIL=<BR>Y: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Best
Regards<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>=<BR><BR><DIV><BR>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT size=3 face=3DTahoma><SPAN
style=3D"FONT-FAMIL=<BR>Y: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE:
10pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV><BR><DIV><BR>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT size=3 face=3DTahoma><SPAN
style=3D"FONT-FAMIL=<BR>Y: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Franz
Dotter<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>=<BR><BR><DIV><BR>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><SPAN
style=3D"FONT-FAMIL=<BR>Y: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE:
10pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV><BR><DIV><BR>
<P class=3DMsoNormal 12pt?><FONT size=3 ="<BR">face=3DTahoma><SPAN
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><BR>1. =<BR>Now, there is
new software from the University of Hamburg and C1 WPS =<BR>Workplace
Solutions, called DELEGS, that coordinates with the SignPuddle =<BR>DGS
dictionary, Stefan and other teachers of Deaf students in Germany, can
=<BR>create documents that translate spoken language textbooks, into written
=<BR>sign language, so their students can understand both languages better and
=<BR>can grasp the content of the textbooks. So the German SignPuddles online
=<BR>are geared towards Deaf Education, and are used with this
software:<BR><BR>=<BR>DELEGS<BR><A
title='http://3D"http://www.delegs.com/delegseditor/"'
href='mip://0b837180/3D"http://www.delegs.com/delegseditor/"'>http://www.delegs=<BR>.com/delegseditor/</A><BR><BR>DELEGS
stands for "German Learning with =<BR>SignWriting" but in German of
course=E2=80=A6I believe it is "Deutsch =<BR>lernen mit GebaerdenSchrift"
(Stefan and others, please correct me if I am =<BR>wrong ;-))<BR><BR>Anyway -
that specific database is impressive for its =<BR>educational
purpose=E2=80=A6<BR><BR>THANK YOU, to all of you, who have =<BR>created
DELEGS=E2=80=A6and thank you to Stefan Woehrmann for making this
=<BR>possible<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT size=3 face='3D"Times' New Roman?><SPAN
=<BR>style=3D"FONT-SIZE:
12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV></=<BR>BODY><BR><BR>--=__Part6947DE8E.1__=--<BR><BR>--=__Part6947DE8E.0__=--<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date:
Thu, 5 Jul 2012 05:15:38 -0400<BR>From: Stefan
W=?UTF-8?Q?=C3=B6hrmann?=
<stefanwoehrmann@GEBAERDENSCHRIFT.DE><BR>Subject: Re: AW: Antw: Re:
SW-HamNoSys<BR><BR>Hi Franz and everyone, <BR><BR>maybe that I do not
understand your point. If I sign to my deaf student in<BR>DGS and ask him to
translate this and to write this in German he is asked to<BR>write the
sentence or question in spoken language with correct grammar and<BR>spelling.
<BR><BR>Now I do not sign but offer the same message in a written form. With
this<BR>brilliant new software Delegs we can take signs from the
SignPuddle<BR>dictionary and can create DGS documents in order to support the
deaf student<BR>to improve spoken language skills. <BR><BR>Hearing can
practice ad improve DGS as well ... <BR><BR>There are different steps within
this curriculum. Very often I offer in the<BR>beginning exact signed German
written in GebaerdenSchrift / Sutton<BR>SignWriting including the mouthings.
<BR><BR>Well the mouthings are so important. Not only in exact signed German
(LBG)<BR><BR>"...But the fact remains that these hints do not represent
default mouthings<BR>as they are used in DGS;" <BR><BR>Well from my point of
view and after looking at soooo many DGS performances<BR>I disagree. In DGS
these mouthings are very much part of DGS. <BR><BR>Without these information
it is not easy to understand.. smile. And of<BR>course beside these mouthings
that represent at least a part of a German<BR>word we can see mouth-gesture -
... no problem with that. Valerie Suton<BR>offers lots of options to document
these non manual hints. <BR><BR>All best <BR><BR>Stefan
<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>On Thu, 5 Jul 2012 08:35:10 +0200,
Franz.Dotter@UNI-KLU.AC.AT wrote:<BR><BR>>Dear Stefan and others,<BR>>
<BR>>I really estimate your approach to use creative means in order to
teach<BR>>German (or any other spoken language to deaf students). I'm
only<BR>>pleading for correct info. What disturbed me was Valeries
sentence: "can<BR>>create documents that translate spoken language
textbooks, into written<BR>>sign language". I think all agree that a
formulation like: "the program<BR>>can a) convert glossed sign language
sentences into SignWriting, b)<BR>>convert single written German words into
DGS or Signed<BR>>Germanequivalents, given in SignWriting c) a written
German sentence is<BR>>converted word-by-word into DGS and Signed German
equivalents, given in<BR>>SignWriting, by that offering a Signed German
version of the original<BR>>sentence". These achievements are great enough
and many teachers will<BR>>take them over gratefully; therefore we need not
say "there is<BR>>translation from German to DGS".<BR>> <BR>>To give
an example: If you take a German sentence like "Ich werde<BR>>gehen" = (I
will go), you get the auxiliary verb "werden" also as a sign<BR>>(which is
clearly Signed German; and has some pedagogical advanthge
in<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>>some settings, but is not DGS)<BR>>
<BR>>Concerning the mouthings: I understand the difference between the
full<BR>>"Mundbildschrift" and the hints given in DELEGS/SignWriting now.
But the<BR>>fact remains that these hints do not represent default
mouthings as they<BR>>are used in DGS; they are still hints towards spoken
language (to<BR>>repeat: I do neither critisise this from a pedagocical nor
from a<BR>>bilingual perspective; I only want to state that these elements
are not<BR>>(Greman) sign language elements).<BR>> <BR>>Best
Regards<BR>> <BR>>Franz<BR>><BR>>>>> Stefan
Wöhrmann<stefanwoehrmann@GEBAERDENSCHRIFT.DE> 7/4/2012
11:46<BR>>>>><BR>><BR>>Hello Valerie, Franz and everyone –
<BR>> <BR>>It is just as you say Valerie and I want to repeat that.
<BR>> <BR>>Delegs iss a wonderful tool to create bilingual materials and
“It<BR>>depends on the skill of the writer (translator). It also depends on
what<BR>>the writer wants to do.”<BR>> <BR>>So of course you can
create translations from an idea expressed in<BR>>spoken language to the
same idea expressed in DGS. The wonderful thing<BR>>is that you can rely on
a written document which shows perfectly the<BR>>writers idea how to sign
this given concept or that shows how a given<BR>>sign language performance
can be translated to spoken language. <BR>> <BR>>Unfortunately there is
obviously a misunderstanding in your idea that<BR>>the
“Mundbilder” symbolise sounds within the SignWriting face –
they<BR>>do not!!! <BR>> <BR>>Woehrmanns-speechwriting should not be
mixed up with my invention of<BR>>“Mundbildschrift” a system that supports
the articulation process in<BR>>deaf students... <BR>> <BR>>The
“Mundbilder” in SignWriting (GebaerdenSchrift) are simply meant
to<BR>>document mouth- tongue – lip movements - it is a
guessing game like<BR>>lipreading – but including the information coming
from your hands it is<BR>>easy to understand. <BR>> <BR>>Once more –
Delegs - is a tool that allows anybody to create
written<BR>>documents of Sign language DGS, ASL, and spoken language.
Why should<BR>>this not be a translation? The scribe is just asked to write
what he<BR>>wants to write... smile. <BR>> <BR>>Stefan <BR>>
<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>><BR>><BR>>Von: linguists interested
in signed languages<BR>>[mailto:SLLING-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU] Im
Auftrag von Valerie<BR>>Sutton<BR>>Gesendet: Mittwoch, 4. Juli 2012
16:03<BR>>An: SLLING-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU<BR>>Betreff: Re:
Antw: Re: SW-HamNoSys<BR>><BR>> <BR>>Hello Franz and everyone
-<BR>><BR>> <BR>><BR>>It depends on the skill of the writer
(translator). It also depends on<BR>>what the writer wants to
do.<BR>><BR>> <BR>><BR>>If the software is used without a
knowledge of sign languages, and how<BR>>to translate, then you are right
that any software and any writing<BR>>system can be used
incorrectly.<BR>><BR>> <BR>><BR>>But a translator who knows sign
languages and spoken languages well,<BR>>and knows how to translate between
the languages, and knows how to use<BR>>the SignWriting-related software to
produce good translations, can<BR>>produce linguistically correct documents
using any SignWriting-related<BR>>software.<BR>><BR>>
<BR>><BR>>In the case of SignPuddle, we have an Editor called the
SignText<BR>>Editor. In the SignText Editor we can write directly in sign
languages<BR>>without any connection to spoken languages. We can also then
save each<BR>>individual sign within a sign language document, into a
dictionary,<BR>>which can then be accessed by DELEGS
software.<BR>><BR>> <BR>><BR>>Inside DELEGS software, the writer
can then write the gloss for the<BR>>sign language sentences that will
access or bring in the signs from the<BR>>special SignPuddle file created
for the work…so the writer in DELEGS is<BR>>not required to do Signed
German - a translation that provides proper<BR>>spoken German and proper
DGS can be created using a combination of<BR>>SignPuddle's SignText Editor,
SignPuddle dictionaries, and the DELEG's<BR>>Editor.<BR>><BR>>
<BR>><BR>>I know the DELEGs developers are planning to produce their own
Editor<BR>>in time, but at the moment, this is how it is being
done…<BR>><BR>> <BR>><BR>>Val ;-)<BR>><BR>>
<BR>><BR>>-----------<BR>><BR>> <BR>><BR>>
<BR>><BR>>On Jul 3, 2012, at 11:48 PM, Franz.Dotter@UNI-KLU.AC.AT
wrote:<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>Dear
colleagues,<BR>><BR>> <BR>><BR>>Concerning DELEGS you have to add
that "translate" is not the adequate<BR>>word here: DELEGS simply puts a
German word into a SignWriting notation<BR>>of an adequate DGS sign. If you
use a real German sentence, you create<BR>>pure Signed German. Only if you
use a correct glossing of a signed<BR>>sentence (i.e. if you know how the
grammar of DGS), you will get a<BR>>grammatically acceptable DGS sentence.
Moreover, the face is enriched<BR>>with a full notation of the sounds of
the German word used (not only a<BR>>possible
mouthing).<BR>><BR>>Both systems, the Woehrmann-system of symbolising
sounds within the<BR>>SignWriting face as well as DELEGS do have their
merits for several<BR>>educational settings and I would not like to
underscore the creative<BR>>work contained in them.<BR>><BR>>But:
There is no TRANSLATION from anywhere to somewhere. As there are<BR>>some
similar advertisements of "translation" in the context of
sign<BR>>languages /cf. e.g. also http://www.pslt.org/), I'm a little
bit<BR>>concerned about the result of such advertisements when people
from<BR>>outside learn that all these announcemenst were not true. Please,
tell<BR>>the linguistic truth!<BR>><BR>> <BR>><BR>>Best
Regards<BR>><BR>> <BR>><BR>>Franz Dotter<BR>><BR>>
<BR>><BR>><BR>>1. Now, there is new software from the University of
Hamburg and C1 WPS<BR>>Workplace Solutions, called DELEGS, that coordinates
with the SignPuddle<BR>>DGS dictionary, Stefan and other teachers of Deaf
students in Germany,<BR>>can create documents that translate spoken
language textbooks, into<BR>>written sign language, so their students can
understand both languages<BR>>better and can grasp the content of the
textbooks. So the German<BR>>SignPuddles online are geared towards Deaf
Education, and are used with<BR>>this
software:<BR>><BR>>DELEGS<BR>>http://www.delegs.com/delegseditor/<BR>><BR>>DELEGS
stands for "German Learning with SignWriting" but in German of<BR>>course…I
believe it is "Deutsch lernen mit GebaerdenSchrift" (Stefan and<BR>>others,
please correct me if I am wrong ;-))<BR>><BR>>Anyway - that specific
database is impressive for its
educational<BR>>purpose…<BR>><BR>>THANK YOU, to all of you, who have
created DELEGS…and thank you to<BR>>Stefan Woehrmann for making this
possible<BR>><BR>>
<BR>><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu,
5 Jul 2012 07:34:56 -0700<BR>From: Valerie Sutton
<sutton@SIGNWRITING.ORG><BR>Subject: Re: Antw: Re:
SW-HamNoSys<BR><BR>--Apple-Mail=_7D90FF0B-861D-45CB-B5EF-1960E3E6D156<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding:
quoted-printable<BR>Content-Type:
text/plain;<BR>charset=windows-1252<BR><BR>Hello Franz -<BR>I want you to know
I appreciate this conversation, and I am sorry if I =<BR>said something that
disturbed you -<BR><BR>And thank you for pointing out Stefan's creative use of
these tools in =<BR>his classroom - Stefan is a remarkable teacher of Deaf
children and is =<BR>very creative indeed ;-)<BR><BR>DELEGS is software that
is dependent on glosses - I never even thought =<BR>about that, but that is
true...<BR><BR>SignPuddle is not dependent on glosses. In SignText, I and
others write =<BR>directly in the movements of sign languages without ever
using any gloss =<BR>system or thinking in a spoken
language=85<BR><BR>However, other SignPuddle users do use glosses to compose
their =<BR>documents - so it depends on the writer=85SignPuddle has both
options...<BR><BR>So please tell me how I can correct my description of the
process - I =<BR>want to say it correctly=85 Perhaps it is the term
"translation" that =<BR>has a different meaning in the linguistics profession,
that I do not =<BR>understand? We have a Translate Feature in SignPuddle that
is based on =<BR>glosses, so we have used that term freely...<BR><BR>Val
;-)<BR><BR>--------<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>On Jul 4, 2012, at 11:35
PM, Franz.Dotter@UNI-KLU.AC.AT wrote:<BR><BR>> Dear Stefan and
others,<BR>> =20<BR>> I really estimate your approach to use creative
means in order to =<BR>teach German (or any other spoken language to deaf
students). I'm only =<BR>pleading for correct info. What disturbed me was
Valeries sentence: "can =<BR>create documents that translate spoken language
textbooks, into written =<BR>sign language". I think all agree that a
formulation like: "the program =<BR>can a) convert glossed sign language
sentences into SignWriting, b) =<BR>convert single written German words into
DGS or Signed =<BR>Germanequivalents, given in SignWriting c) a written German
sentence is =<BR>converted word-by-word into DGS and Signed German
equivalents, given in =<BR>SignWriting, by that offering a Signed German
version of the original =<BR>sentence". These achievements are great enough
and many teachers will =<BR>take them over gratefully; therefore we need not
say "there is =<BR>translation from German to DGS".<BR>> =20<BR>> To
give an example: If you take a German sentence like "Ich werde =<BR>gehen" =3D
(I will go), you get the auxiliary verb "werden" also as a =<BR>sign (which is
clearly Signed German; and has some pedagogical advanthge =<BR>in some
settings, but is not DGS)<BR>> =20<BR>> Concerning the mouthings: I
understand the difference between the full =<BR>"Mundbildschrift" and the
hints given in DELEGS/SignWriting now. But the =<BR>fact remains that these
hints do not represent default mouthings as they =<BR>are used in DGS; they
are still hints towards spoken language (to =<BR>repeat: I do neither
critisise this from a pedagocical nor from a =<BR>bilingual perspective; I
only want to state that these elements are not =<BR>(Greman) sign language
elements).<BR>> =20<BR>> Best Regards<BR>> =20<BR>>
Franz<BR>>=20<BR>> >>> Stefan
W=F6hrmann<stefanwoehrmann@GEBAERDENSCHRIFT.DE> 7/4/2012 =<BR>11:46
>>><BR>> Hello Valerie, Franz and everyone =96<BR>> =20<BR>>
It is just as you say Valerie and I want to repeat that.<BR>> =20<BR>>
Delegs iss a wonderful tool to create bilingual materials and =93It
=<BR>depends on the skill of the writer (translator). It also depends on what
=<BR>the writer wants to do.=94<BR>> =20<BR>> So of course you can
create translations from an idea expressed in =<BR>spoken language to the same
idea expressed in DGS. The wonderful thing =<BR>is that you can rely on a
written document which shows perfectly the =<BR>writers idea how to sign this
given concept or that shows how a given =<BR>sign language performance can be
translated to spoken language.<BR>> =20<BR>> Unfortunately there is
obviously a misunderstanding in your idea that =<BR>the
=93Mundbilder=94 symbolise sounds within the SignWriting face =96
=<BR>they do not!!!<BR>> =20<BR>> Woehrmanns-speechwriting should not be
mixed up with my invention of =<BR>=93Mundbildschrift=94 a system that
supports the articulation process in =<BR>deaf students...<BR>> =20<BR>>
The =93Mundbilder=94 in SignWriting (GebaerdenSchrift) are simply =<BR>meant
to document mouth- tongue =96 lip movements - it is a guessing
=<BR>game like lipreading =96 but including the information coming from your
=<BR>hands it is easy to understand.<BR>> =20<BR>> Once more =96
Delegs - is a tool that allows anybody to create =<BR>written documents
of Sign language DGS, ASL, and spoken language. Why =<BR>should this not
be a translation? The scribe is just asked to write what =<BR>he wants to
write... smile.<BR>> =20<BR>> Stefan<BR>> =20<BR>> =20<BR>>
=20<BR>> =20<BR>> Von: linguists interested in signed languages
=<BR>[mailto:SLLING-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU] Im Auftrag von Valerie
=<BR>Sutton<BR>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 4. Juli 2012 16:03<BR>> An:
SLLING-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU<BR>> Betreff: Re: Antw: Re:
SW-HamNoSys<BR>> =20<BR>> Hello Franz and everyone -<BR>> =20<BR>>
It depends on the skill of the writer (translator). It also depends on
=<BR>what the writer wants to do.<BR>> =20<BR>> If the software is used
without a knowledge of sign languages, and how =<BR>to translate, then you are
right that any software and any writing =<BR>system can be used
incorrectly.<BR>> =20<BR>> But a translator who knows sign languages and
spoken languages well, =<BR>and knows how to translate between the languages,
and knows how to use =<BR>the SignWriting-related software to produce good
translations, can =<BR>produce linguistically correct documents using any
SignWriting-related =<BR>software.<BR>> =20<BR>> In the case of
SignPuddle, we have an Editor called the SignText =<BR>Editor. In the SignText
Editor we can write directly in sign languages =<BR>without any connection to
spoken languages. We can also then save each =<BR>individual sign within a
sign language document, into a dictionary, =<BR>which can then be accessed by
DELEGS software.<BR>> =20<BR>> Inside DELEGS software, the writer can
then write the gloss for the =<BR>sign language sentences that will access or
bring in the signs from the =<BR>special SignPuddle file created for the
work=85so the writer in DELEGS =<BR>is not required to do Signed German - a
translation that provides proper =<BR>spoken German and proper DGS can be
created using a combination of =<BR>SignPuddle's SignText Editor, SignPuddle
dictionaries, and the DELEG's =<BR>Editor.<BR>> =20<BR>> I know the
DELEGs developers are planning to produce their own Editor =<BR>in time, but
at the moment, this is how it is being done=85<BR>> =20<BR>> Val
;-)<BR>> =20<BR>> -----------<BR>> =20<BR>> =20<BR>> On Jul 3,
2012, at 11:48 PM, Franz.Dotter@UNI-KLU.AC.AT
wrote:<BR>>=20<BR>>=20<BR>> Dear colleagues,<BR>> =20<BR>>
Concerning DELEGS you have to add that "translate" is not the adequate
=<BR>word here: DELEGS simply puts a German word into a SignWriting notation
=<BR>of an adequate DGS sign. If you use a real German sentence, you create
=<BR>pure Signed German. Only if you use a correct glossing of a signed
=<BR>sentence (i.e. if you know how the grammar of DGS), you will get a
=<BR>grammatically acceptable DGS sentence. Moreover, the face is enriched
=<BR>with a full notation of the sounds of the German word used (not only a
=<BR>possible mouthing).<BR>> Both systems, the Woehrmann-system of
symbolising sounds within the =<BR>SignWriting face as well as DELEGS do have
their merits for several =<BR>educational settings and I would not like to
underscore the creative =<BR>work contained in them.<BR>> But: There is no
TRANSLATION from anywhere to somewhere. As there are =<BR>some similar
advertisements of "translation" in the context of sign =<BR>languages /cf.
e.g. also http://www.pslt.org/), I'm a little bit =<BR>concerned about the
result of such advertisements when people from =<BR>outside learn that all
these announcemenst were not true. Please, tell =<BR>the linguistic
truth!<BR>> =20<BR>> Best Regards<BR>> =20<BR>> Franz
Dotter<BR>> =20<BR>>=20<BR>> 1. Now, there is new software from the
University of Hamburg and C1 =<BR>WPS Workplace Solutions, called DELEGS, that
coordinates with the =<BR>SignPuddle DGS dictionary, Stefan and other teachers
of Deaf students in =<BR>Germany, can create documents that translate spoken
language textbooks, =<BR>into written sign language, so their students can
understand both =<BR>languages better and can grasp the content of the
textbooks. So the =<BR>German SignPuddles online are geared towards Deaf
Education, and are =<BR>used with this software:<BR>>=20<BR>>
DELEGS<BR>> http://www.delegs.com/delegseditor/<BR>>=20<BR>> DELEGS
stands for "German Learning with SignWriting" but in German of =<BR>course=85I
believe it is "Deutsch lernen mit GebaerdenSchrift" (Stefan =<BR>and others,
please correct me if I am wrong ;-))<BR>>=20<BR>> Anyway - that specific
database is impressive for its educational =<BR>purpose=85<BR>>=20<BR>>
THANK YOU, to all of you, who have created DELEGS=85and thank you to
=<BR>Stefan Woehrmann for making this possible<BR>>=20<BR>>
=20<BR><BR><BR>--Apple-Mail=_7D90FF0B-861D-45CB-B5EF-1960E3E6D156<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding:
quoted-printable<BR>Content-Type:
text/html;<BR>charset=windows-1252<BR><BR><head><base
href=3D"x-msg://72/"></head>break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
-webkit-line-break: =<BR>after-white-space; ">Hello Franz -<div>I
want you to know I appreciate =<BR>this conversation, and I am sorry if I said
something that disturbed you
=<BR>-</div><div><BR></div><div>And thank you for
pointing out Stefan's =<BR>creative use of these tools in his classroom -
Stefan is a remarkable =<BR>teacher of Deaf children and is very creative
indeed =<BR>;-)</div><div><BR></div><div>DELEGS is
software that is dependent on =<BR>glosses - I never even thought about that,
but that is
=<BR>true...</div><div><BR></div><div>SignPuddle is
not dependent on glosses. =<BR>In SignText, I and others write directly in the
movements of sign =<BR>languages without ever using any gloss system or
thinking in a spoken
=<BR>language=85</div><div><BR></div><div>However,
other SignPuddle users do =<BR>use glosses to compose their documents - so it
depends on the =<BR>writer=85SignPuddle has both
options...</div><div><BR></div><div>So =<BR>please
tell me how I can correct my description of the process - I want =<BR>to say
it correctly=85 Perhaps it is the term "translation" that has a =<BR>different
meaning in the linguistics profession, that I do not =<BR>understand? We have
a Translate Feature in SignPuddle that is based on =<BR>glosses, so we have
used that term
=<BR>freely...</div><div><BR></div><div>Val
=<BR>;-)</div><div><BR></div><div>--------</div><div><BR></div><div><BR></div><=<BR>div><BR></div><div><BR></div><div><BR></div><div><BR></div><div><BR><div><=<BR>div>On
Jul 4, 2012, at 11:35 PM, <A
="<BR">href=3D"mailto:Franz.Dotter@UNI-KLU.AC.AT">Franz.Dotter@UNI-KLU.AC.AT</A>
=<BR>wrote:</div><BR
class='3D"Apple-interchange-newline"'><blockquote
=<BR>type=3D"cite"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span"
style=3D"border-collapse: =<BR>separate; font-family: Arial; font-style:
normal; font-variant: normal; =<BR>font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
normal; line-height: normal; =<BR>orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =<BR>none; white-space: normal; widows: 2;
word-spacing: 0px; =<BR>-webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: =<BR>0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect:
none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =<BR>auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
font-size: medium; "><div =<BR>lang=3D"DE" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"blue"
style=3D"margin-top: 4px; =<BR>margin-right: 4px; margin-bottom: 1px;
margin-left: 4px; font: normal =<BR>normal normal 10pt/normal Tahoma;
word-wrap: break-word; =<BR>-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break:
after-white-space; =<BR>"><div>Dear Stefan and
others,</div><div> </div><div>I really
=<BR>estimate your approach to use creative means in order to teach German
=<BR>(or any other spoken language to deaf students). I'm only pleading for
=<BR>correct info. What disturbed me was Valeries sentence: "can create
=<BR>documents that translate spoken language textbooks, into written sign
=<BR>language". I think all agree that a formulation like: "the program can
=<BR>a) convert glossed sign language sentences into SignWriting, b)
=<BR>convert single written German words into DGS or Signed
=<BR>Germanequivalents, given in SignWriting c) a written German
=<BR>sentence is converted word-by-word into DGS and Signed German
=<BR>equivalents, given in SignWriting, by that offering a Signed German
=<BR>version of the original sentence". These achievements are great enough
=<BR>and many teachers will take them over gratefully; therefore we need not
=<BR>say "there is translation from German to
=<BR>DGS".</div><div> </div><div>To give an
example: If you take a =<BR>German sentence like "Ich werde gehen" =3D (I will
go), you get the =<BR>auxiliary verb "werden" also as a sign (which is clearly
Signed German; =<BR>and has some pedagogical advanthge in some settings, but
is not
=<BR>DGS)</div><div> </div><div>Concerning
the mouthings: I understand =<BR>the difference between the full
"Mundbildschrift" and the hints given in =<BR>DELEGS/SignWriting now. But the
fact remains that these hints do not =<BR>represent default mouthings as they
are used in DGS; they are still =<BR>hints towards spoken language (to
repeat: I do neither critisise =<BR>this from a pedagocical nor from
a bilingual perspective; I only want to =<BR>state that these elements are not
(Greman) sign language
=<BR>elements).</div><div> </div><div>Best
=<BR>Regards</div><div> </div><div>Franz<BR><BR>>>>
Stefan =<BR>W=F6hrmann<<A
title='http://3D"mailto:stefanwoehrmann@GEBAERDENSCHRIFT.DE"'
href='mip://0b837180/3D"mailto:stefanwoehrmann@GEBAERDENSCHRIFT.DE"'
="<BR">style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline;
=<BR>">stefanwoehrmann@GEBAERDENSCHRIFT.DE</A>> 7/4/2012 11:46
=<BR>>>><BR></div><div class=3D"Section1"
style=3D"page: Section1; =<BR>"><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm;
margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; =<BR>margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family: 'Times New =<BR>Roman'; "><FONT color=#3db0c0 size=3
face='3D"Arial"'><span =<BR>lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-family: Arial;
color: black; font-size: =<BR>10pt; ">Hello Valerie, Franz and everyone
=<BR>=96<o:p></o:p></span></FONT></div><div
style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; =<BR>margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm;
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =<BR>12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman';
"><FONT color=#3db0c0 size=3 ="<BR">face=3D"Arial"><span
lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-family: Arial; color: =<BR>black; font-size:
10pt;
"><o:p> </o:p></span></FONT></div><div
=<BR>style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm;
=<BR>margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
=<BR>Roman'; "><FONT color=#3db0c0 size=3 face='3D"Arial"'><span
=<BR>lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-family: Arial; color: black; font-size:
=<BR>10pt; ">It is just as you say Valerie and I want to repeat
=<BR>that.<o:p></o:p></span></FONT></div><div
style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; =<BR>margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm;
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =<BR>12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman';
"><FONT color=#3db0c0 size=3 ="<BR">face=3D"Arial"><span
lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-family: Arial; color: =<BR>black; font-size:
10pt;
"><o:p> </o:p></span></FONT></div><div
=<BR>style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm;
=<BR>margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
=<BR>Roman'; "><FONT color=#3db0c0 size=3 face='3D"Arial"'><span
=<BR>lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-family: Arial; color: black; font-size:
=<BR>10pt; ">Delegs iss a wonderful tool to create bilingual materials and
=<BR>=93</span></FONT><B><U><FONT color=#3db0c0><span lang=3D"EN-GB"
=<BR>style=3D"color: black; font-weight: bold; ">It depends on the skill of
=<BR>the writer (translator). It also depends on what the writer wants to
=<BR>do</span></FONT></U></B><FONT color=#3db0c0><span lang=3D"EN-GB"
=<BR>style=3D"color: black;
">.=94<o:p></o:p></span></FONT></div><div
=<BR>style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm;
=<BR>margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
=<BR>Roman'; "><FONT color=#3db0c0 size=3 face='3D"Times'
New="<BR">Roman"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color: black; font-size:
12pt;
=<BR>"><o:p> </o:p></span></FONT></div><div
style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; =<BR>margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm;
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =<BR>12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman';
"><FONT color=#3db0c0 size=3 ="<BR">face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color: black; =<BR>font-size: 12pt; ">So of course
you can create translations from an idea =<BR>expressed in spoken language to
the same idea expressed in DGS. The =<BR>wonderful thing is that you can rely
on a written document which shows =<BR>perfectly the writers idea how to sign
this given concept or that shows =<BR>how a given sign language performance
can be translated to spoken
=<BR>language.<o:p></o:p></span></FONT></div><div
style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; =<BR>margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm;
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =<BR>12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman';
"><FONT color=#3db0c0 size=3 ="<BR">face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color: black; =<BR>font-size: 12pt;
"><o:p> </o:p></span></FONT></div><div
=<BR>style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm;
=<BR>margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
=<BR>Roman'; "><FONT color=#3db0c0 size=3 face='3D"Times'
New="<BR">Roman"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color: black; font-size:
12pt; =<BR>">Unfortunately there is obviously a misunderstanding in your
idea that =<BR>the =93Mundbilder=94
</span></FONT><FONT color=#3db0c0 ="<BR">size=3D"2"
face=3D"Tahoma"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-family: =<BR>Tahoma;
color: black; font-size: 10pt; ">symbolise sounds within the
=<BR>SignWriting face =96 they do
not!!!<o:p></o:p></span></FONT></div><div
=<BR>style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm;
=<BR>margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
=<BR>Roman'; "><FONT color=#3db0c0 size=3 face='3D"Tahoma"'><span
=<BR>lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-family: Tahoma; color: black; font-size:
=<BR>10pt;
"><o:p> </o:p></span></FONT></div><div
style=3D"margin-top: =<BR>0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm;
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; =<BR>font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman';
"><FONT color=#3db0c0 ="<BR">size=3D"2" face=3D"Tahoma"><span
lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-family: =<BR>Tahoma; color: black; font-size:
10pt; ">Woehrmanns-speechwriting should =<BR>not be mixed up with my
invention of =93Mundbildschrift=94 a system that =<BR>supports the
articulation process in deaf
=<BR>students...<o:p></o:p></span></FONT></div><div
style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; =<BR>margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm;
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =<BR>12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman';
"><FONT color=#3db0c0 size=3 ="<BR">face=3D"Tahoma"><span
lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-family: Tahoma; =<BR>color: black; font-size:
10pt;
=<BR>"><o:p> </o:p></span></FONT></div><div
style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; =<BR>margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm;
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =<BR>12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman';
"><FONT color=#3db0c0 size=3 ="<BR">face=3D"Tahoma"><span
lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-family: Tahoma; =<BR>color: black; font-size:
10pt; ">The =93Mundbilder=94 in SignWriting =<BR>(GebaerdenSchrift) are
simply meant to document mouth- tongue =96 lip =<BR>movements
- it is a guessing game like lipreading =96 but
=<BR>including the information coming from your hands it is easy to
=<BR>understand.<o:p></o:p></span></FONT></div><div
style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; =<BR>margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm;
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =<BR>12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman';
"><FONT color=#3db0c0 size=3 ="<BR">face=3D"Tahoma"><span
lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-family: Tahoma; =<BR>color: black; font-size:
10pt;
=<BR>"><o:p> </o:p></span></FONT></div><div
style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; =<BR>margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm;
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =<BR>12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman';
"><FONT color=#3db0c0 size=3 ="<BR">face=3D"Tahoma"><span
lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-family: Tahoma; =<BR>color: black; font-size:
10pt; ">Once more =96 Delegs - is a tool =<BR>that allows anybody
to create written documents of Sign language DGS, =<BR>ASL, and
spoken language. Why should this not be a translation? =<BR>The scribe is just
asked to write what he wants to write...
=<BR>smile.<o:p></o:p></span></FONT></div><div
style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; =<BR>margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm;
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =<BR>12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman';
"><FONT color=#3db0c0 size=3 ="<BR">face=3D"Tahoma"><span
lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-family: Tahoma; =<BR>color: black; font-size:
10pt;
=<BR>"><o:p> </o:p></span></FONT></div><div
style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; =<BR>margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm;
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =<BR>12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman';
"><FONT color=#3db0c0 size=3 ="<BR">face=3D"Tahoma"><span
lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-family: Tahoma; =<BR>color: black; font-size:
10pt;
=<BR>">Stefan<o:p></o:p></span></FONT></div><div
style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; =<BR>margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm;
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =<BR>12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman';
"><FONT color=#3db0c0 size=3 ="<BR">face=3D"Tahoma"><span
lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-family: Tahoma; =<BR>color: black; font-size:
10pt;
=<BR>"><o:p> </o:p></span></FONT></div><div
style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; =<BR>margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm;
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =<BR>12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman';
"><FONT size=3 face='3D"Times' ="<BR">New Roman"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;
=<BR>"><o:p> </o:p></span></FONT></div><div
style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; =<BR>margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm;
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =<BR>12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman';
"><FONT color=#3d0a00 size=3 ="<BR">face=3D"Arial"><span
lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-family: Arial; color: =<BR>navy; font-size: 10pt;
"><o:p> </o:p></span></FONT></div><div
=<BR>style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm;
=<BR>margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
=<BR>Roman'; "><FONT color=#3d0a00 size=3 face='3D"Arial"'><span
=<BR>lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-size:
=<BR>10pt;
"><o:p> </o:p></span></FONT></div><div><div
class=3D"MsoNormal"=<BR>align=3D"center" style=3D"margin-top: 0cm;
margin-right: 0cm; =<BR>margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family: =<BR>'Times New Roman'; text-align: center; "><FONT
size=3 face='3D"Times' ="<BR">New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;
"><hr tabindex=3D"-1" =<BR>align=3D"center" size=3D"2"
width=3D"100%"></span></FONT></div><div
=<BR>style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm;
=<BR>margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
=<BR>Roman'; "><B><FONT size=3 face='3D"Tahoma"'><span
style=3D"font-family: =<BR>Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; font-weight: bold;
=<BR>">Von:</span></FONT></B><FONT size=3 face='3D"Tahoma"'><span
=<BR>style=3D"font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; "><span
=<BR>class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>linguists
interested in =<BR>signed languages
[mailto:SLLING-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU]<span
=<BR>class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><B><span
=<BR>style=3D"font-weight: bold; ">Im Auftrag von<span
=<BR>class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></B>Valerie
=<BR>Sutton<BR><B><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;
=<BR>">Gesendet:</span></B><span
=<BR>class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>Mittwoch, 4.
Juli 2012 =<BR>16:03<BR><B><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;
">An:</span></B><span
=<BR>class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><A
="<BR">href=3D"mailto:SLLING-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU" style=3D"color:
=<BR>blue; text-decoration: underline;
=<BR>">SLLING-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</A><BR><B><span
=<BR>style=3D"font-weight: bold; ">Betreff:</span></B><span
=<BR>class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: Antw: Re:
=<BR>SW-HamNoSys</span></FONT><o:p></o:p></div></div><div
style=3D"margin-top: =<BR>0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm;
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; =<BR>font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman';
"><FONT size=3 ="<BR">face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;
=<BR>"><o:p> </o:p></span></FONT></div><div
style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; =<BR>margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm;
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =<BR>12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman';
"><FONT size=3 face='3D"Times' ="<BR">New Roman"><span
style=3D"font-size: 12pt; ">Hello Franz and everyone
=<BR>-<o:p></o:p></span></FONT></div><div><div
style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; =<BR>margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm;
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =<BR>12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman';
"><FONT size=3 face='3D"Times' ="<BR">New Roman"><span
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;
=<BR>"><o:p> </o:p></span></FONT></div></div><div><div
=<BR>style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm;
=<BR>margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
=<BR>Roman'; "><FONT size=3 face='3D"Times' New Roman?><span
=<BR>style=3D"font-size: 12pt; ">It depends on the skill of the writer
=<BR>(translator). It also depends on what the writer wants to
=<BR>do.<o:p></o:p></span></FONT></div></div><div><div
style=3D"margin-top: =<BR>0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm;
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; =<BR>font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman';
"><FONT size=3 ="<BR">face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;
=<BR>"><o:p> </o:p></span></FONT></div></div><div><div
=<BR>style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm;
=<BR>margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
=<BR>Roman'; "><FONT size=3 face='3D"Times' New Roman?><span
=<BR>style=3D"font-size: 12pt; ">If the software is used without a
knowledge =<BR>of sign languages, and how to translate, then you are right
that any =<BR>software and any writing system can be used
=<BR>incorrectly.<o:p></o:p></span></FONT></div></div><div><div
=<BR>style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm;
=<BR>margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
=<BR>Roman'; "><FONT size=3 face='3D"Times' New Roman?><span
=<BR>style=3D"font-size: 12pt;
=<BR>"><o:p> </o:p></span></FONT></div></div><div><div
=<BR>style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm;
=<BR>margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
=<BR>Roman'; "><FONT size=3 face='3D"Times' New Roman?><span
=<BR>style=3D"font-size: 12pt; ">But a translator who knows sign languages
=<BR>and spoken languages well, and knows how to translate between the
=<BR>languages, and knows how to use the SignWriting-related software to
=<BR>produce good translations, can produce linguistically correct documents
=<BR>using any SignWriting-related
=<BR>software.<o:p></o:p></span></FONT></div></div><div><div
=<BR>style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm;
=<BR>margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
=<BR>Roman'; "><FONT size=3 face='3D"Times' New Roman?><span
=<BR>style=3D"font-size: 12pt;
=<BR>"><o:p> </o:p></span></FONT></div></div><div><div
=<BR>style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm;
=<BR>margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
=<BR>Roman'; "><FONT size=3 face='3D"Times' New Roman?><span
=<BR>style=3D"font-size: 12pt; ">In the case of SignPuddle, we have an
Editor =<BR>called the SignText Editor. In the SignText Editor we can write
directly =<BR>in sign languages without any connection to spoken languages. We
can =<BR>also then save each individual sign within a sign language document,
=<BR>into a dictionary, which can then be accessed by DELEGS
=<BR>software.<o:p></o:p></span></FONT></div></div><div><div
=<BR>style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm;
=<BR>margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
=<BR>Roman'; "><FONT size=3 face='3D"Times' New Roman?><span
=<BR>style=3D"font-size: 12pt;
=<BR>"><o:p> </o:p></span></FONT></div></div><div><div
=<BR>style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm;
=<BR>margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
=<BR>Roman'; "><FONT size=3 face='3D"Times' New Roman?><span
=<BR>style=3D"font-size: 12pt; ">Inside DELEGS software, the writer can
then =<BR>write the gloss for the sign language sentences that will access or
=<BR>bring in the signs from the special SignPuddle file created for the
=<BR>work=85so the writer in DELEGS is not required to do Signed German - a
=<BR>translation that provides proper spoken German and proper DGS can be
=<BR>created using a combination of SignPuddle's SignText Editor, SignPuddle
=<BR>dictionaries, and the DELEG's
=<BR>Editor.<o:p></o:p></span></FONT></div></div><div><div
style=3D"margin-top:=<BR>0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm;
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; =<BR>font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman';
"><FONT size=3 ="<BR">face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;
=<BR>"><o:p> </o:p></span></FONT></div></div><div><div
=<BR>style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm;
=<BR>margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
=<BR>Roman'; "><FONT size=3 face='3D"Times' New Roman?><span
=<BR>style=3D"font-size: 12pt; ">I know the DELEGs developers are planning
to =<BR>produce their own Editor in time, but at the moment, this is how it is
=<BR>being
done=85<o:p></o:p></span></FONT></div></div><div><div
=<BR>style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm;
=<BR>margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
=<BR>Roman'; "><FONT size=3 face='3D"Times' New Roman?><span
=<BR>style=3D"font-size: 12pt;
=<BR>"><o:p> </o:p></span></FONT></div></div><div><div
=<BR>style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm;
=<BR>margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
=<BR>Roman'; "><FONT size=3 face='3D"Times' New Roman?><span
=<BR>style=3D"font-size: 12pt; ">Val
=<BR>;-)<o:p></o:p></span></FONT></div></div><div><div
style=3D"margin-top: =<BR>0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm;
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; =<BR>font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman';
"><FONT size=3 ="<BR">face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;
=<BR>"><o:p> </o:p></span></FONT></div></div><div><div
=<BR>style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm;
=<BR>margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
=<BR>Roman'; "><FONT size=3 face='3D"Times' New Roman?><span
=<BR>style=3D"font-size: 12pt;
=<BR>">-----------<o:p></o:p></span></FONT></div></div><div><div
=<BR>style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm;
=<BR>margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
=<BR>Roman'; "><FONT size=3 face='3D"Times' New Roman?><span
=<BR>style=3D"font-size: 12pt;
=<BR>"><o:p> </o:p></span></FONT></div></div><div><div
=<BR>style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm;
=<BR>margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
=<BR>Roman'; "><FONT size=3 face='3D"Times' New Roman?><span
=<BR>style=3D"font-size: 12pt;
=<BR>"><o:p> </o:p></span></FONT></div><div><div><div
style=3D"margin-top:=<BR>0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm;
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; =<BR>font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman';
"><FONT size=3 ="<BR">face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D"font-size: 12pt; ">On Jul 3, =<BR>2012, at 11:48 PM,<span
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><A
="<BR">href=3D"mailto:Franz.Dotter@UNI-KLU.AC.AT" style=3D"color: blue;
=<BR>text-decoration: underline; ">Franz.Dotter@UNI-KLU.AC.AT</A><span
=<BR>class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></fon=<BR>t></div></div><div
style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; =<BR>margin-left: 0cm;
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =<BR>'Times New Roman';
"><FONT size=3 face='3D"Times' New Roman?><span =<BR>style=3D"font-size:
12pt;
"><BR><BR><o:p></o:p></span></FONT></div><div
=<BR>style=3D"margin-top: 3pt; margin-right: 3pt; margin-bottom: 0.75pt;
=<BR>margin-left: 3pt; "><div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm;
margin-right: =<BR>0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; =<BR>font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><FONT size=3
face='3D"Tahoma"'><span =<BR>style=3D"font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;
">Dear
=<BR>colleagues,<o:p></o:p></span></FONT></div></div><div><div
=<BR>style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm;
=<BR>margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
=<BR>Roman'; "><FONT size=3 face='3D"Tahoma"'><span
style=3D"font-family: =<BR>Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;
=<BR>"> <o:p></o:p></span></FONT></div></div><div><div
=<BR>style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm;
=<BR>margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
=<BR>Roman'; "><FONT size=3 face='3D"Tahoma"'><span
style=3D"font-family: =<BR>Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; ">Concerning DELEGS you
have to add that =<BR>"translate" is not the adequate word
here: DELEGS simply puts a =<BR>German word into a SignWriting
notation of an adequate DGS sign. If you =<BR>use a real German sentence, you
create pure Signed German. Only if =<BR>you use a correct glossing of
a signed sentence (i.e. if you know how =<BR>the grammar of DGS), you will get
a grammatically =<BR>acceptable DGS sentence. Moreover, the
face is enriched with a full =<BR>notation of the sounds of the German word
used (not only a possible
=<BR>mouthing).<o:p></o:p></span></FONT></div></div><div><div
=<BR>style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm;
=<BR>margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
=<BR>Roman'; "><FONT size=3 face='3D"Tahoma"'><span
style=3D"font-family: =<BR>Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; ">Both systems, the
Woehrmann-system of =<BR>symbolising sounds within the SignWriting face as
well as DELEGS do have =<BR>their merits for several educational settings and
I would not like to =<BR>underscore the creative work contained in
=<BR>them.<o:p></o:p></span></FONT></div></div><div><div
style=3D"margin-top: =<BR>0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm;
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; =<BR>font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman';
"><FONT size=3 ="<BR">face=3D"Tahoma"><span style=3D"font-family:
Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; =<BR>">But: There is no TRANSLATION from anywhere
to somewhere. As there =<BR>are some similar advertisements of
"translation" in the context of =<BR>sign languages /cf. e.g. also<span
=<BR>class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><A
="<BR">href=3D"http://www.pslt.org/" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration:
=<BR>underline; ">http://www.pslt.org/</A>), I'm a little bit concerned
about =<BR>the result of such advertisements when people from outside learn
that =<BR>all these announcemenst were not true. Please, tell the linguistic
=<BR>truth!<o:p></o:p></span></FONT></div></div><div><div
style=3D"margin-top: =<BR>0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm;
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; =<BR><BR>font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
Roman'; "><FONT size=3 ="<BR">face=3D"Tahoma"><span
style=3D"font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;
=<BR>"> <o:p></o:p></span></FONT></div></div><div><div
=<BR>style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm;
=<BR>margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
=<BR>Roman'; "><FONT size=3 face='3D"Tahoma"'><span
style=3D"font-family: =<BR>Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; ">Best
=<BR>Regards<o:p></o:p></span></FONT></div></div><div><div
style=3D"margin-top:=<BR>0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm;
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; =<BR>font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman';
"><FONT size=3 ="<BR">face=3D"Tahoma"><span style=3D"font-family:
Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;
=<BR>"> <o:p></o:p></span></FONT></div></div><div><div
=<BR>style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm;
=<BR>margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
=<BR>Roman'; "><FONT size=3 face='3D"Tahoma"'><span
style=3D"font-family: =<BR>Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; ">Franz
=<BR>Dotter<o:p></o:p></span></FONT></div></div><div><div
style=3D"margin-top: =<BR>0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm;
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; =<BR>font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman';
"><FONT size=3 ="<BR">face=3D"Tahoma"><span style=3D"font-family:
Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;
=<BR>"> <o:p></o:p></span></FONT></div></div><div>
<P class='3D"MsoNormal"' ="<BR">style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm;
margin-left: 0cm; =<BR>margin-bottom: 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman'; =<BR>"><FONT size=3 face='3D"Tahoma"'><span
style=3D"font-family: Tahoma; =<BR>font-size: 10pt; "><BR>1. Now, there is
new software from the University =<BR>of Hamburg and C1 WPS Workplace
Solutions, called DELEGS, that =<BR>coordinates with the SignPuddle DGS
dictionary, Stefan and other =<BR>teachers of Deaf students in Germany, can
create documents that =<BR>translate spoken language textbooks, into written
sign language, so =<BR>their students can understand both languages better and
can grasp the =<BR>content of the textbooks. So the German SignPuddles online
are geared =<BR>towards Deaf Education, and are used with this
=<BR>software:<BR><BR>DELEGS<BR><A
title='http://3D"http://www.delegs.com/delegseditor/"=<BR'
href='mip://0b837180/3D"http://www.delegs.com/delegseditor/"=<BR'>style=3D"color:
blue; text-decoration: underline;
=<BR>">http://www.delegs.com/delegseditor/</A><BR><BR>DELEGS stands for
=<BR>"German Learning with SignWriting" but in German of course=85I believe
=<BR>it is "Deutsch lernen mit GebaerdenSchrift" (Stefan and others, please
=<BR>correct me if I am wrong ;-))<BR><BR>Anyway - that specific database is
=<BR>impressive for its educational purpose=85<BR><BR>THANK YOU, to all of
=<BR>you, who have created DELEGS=85and thank you to Stefan Woehrmann for
=<BR>making this
possible<o:p></o:p></span></FONT></P></div></div></div><div
=<BR>style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm;
=<BR>margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
=<BR>Roman'; "><FONT size=3 face='3D"Times' New Roman?><span
=<BR>style=3D"font-size: 12pt;
=<BR>"><o:p> </o:p></span></FONT></div></div></div></div></span></blockquo=<BR>te></div><BR></div>=<BR><BR>--Apple-Mail=_7D90FF0B-861D-45CB-B5EF-1960E3E6D156--<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End
of SLLING-L Digest - 4 Jul 2012 to 5 Jul 2012
(#2012-70)<BR>************************************************************<BR></FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>