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<DIV>Dear Valerie, Stefan and all,</DIV>
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<DIV>Valerie, you met the point: What the DELEGS and maybe similar do, is to "transpose" or "transfer" or "convert" data from one notation system to the other: German words or glosses are transposed into SignWriting of the respective DGS or Signed German. That's like transposing any written alphabetic language to the morse or flag code. Also what Penny has proposed, is the idea for a "transposition" algorithm between HamNoSys and SignWriting. All these things are very very valuable because they reduce individual work enormously and allow exchange of information between different notation systems as well as diverse improvements of furtherance and education. But they do not "translate" in the linguistic sense, i.e. "move/turn" information/concepts/content from one language into the other.</DIV>
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<DIV>I suppose that the extension (area of use) of "translate" overlaps somehow with the extensions of "transfer", "transpose" etc. This fact can produce misunderandings if "translate" is used in its widest sense. I'm always getting a little bit angry when we read advertisements like "now sign language can be translated into German". The reason is that I know how politicians and financial adminitrators read this: they think "oh, super, now we have automatic translation for sign languages and we don't need any humans as interpreters!" So, by these wrong advertisements the sign language communities can suffer harm when money is given people who promise what they are unable to deliver, instead to give the money to the communities in order to enable them to fund research which helps them directly in their everyday needs. I do not blame colleagues to consciously use this strategy; I only warn them not to overlook the pragmatic consequence of using unsharp/misleading descriptions.</DIV>
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<DIV>I think that we can agree on the different functions of diverse software when they are described in detail using clear terms about the meaning of which we have consensus.</DIV>
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<DIV>The only disagreement I see between Stefan's and my position is the role of mouthing: When DELEGS gives full mouthing (i.e. the complete German word) or at least hints on mouthing for EVERY sign, then this is not in accord to the findings of sign language linguistics: I would like to state that no native signer really gives the mothing for every sign (s)he uses in a default SL communication. Therefore having a mouthing notation for every sign does not represent "natural" sign language use. In order to avoid misunderstanding: This does not mean that adding full or partial mouthing wouldn't make any pedagogical sense!</DIV>
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<DIV>To comment on writing systems vs. notation systems: SignWriting can be seen as a "writing system" as it shares some properties with other writing systems: it allows to produce permanent and quickly readable equivalents to non-permanent signed texts. Maybe, if it would be in use every time and worldwide, it would - like other writing systems - develop to one or more reduced forms in order to be even more quickly and reduce redundancy; but it is a comparable to writing system as we know them from spoken languages (as we know, these are more or less "phonetic", i.e. in any case not completely scientific but for pragmatic use) . Its advantage is that it offers "gestalts" for signs which can be more or less "read" immediately. Scientific notation systems for spoken languages (think for representing speech by the combination of single phonetic feature values like "anterior", "voiced" etc.) as well as for signed languages (e.g. Johnson-Liddell or HamNoSys) don't offer the easiness which is necessary for everyday quick use. Therefore we need both for different functions.</DIV>
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<DIV>To comment on Penny's idea of relating SignWriting to HamNoSys: If that would work, it would be great, as SignWriting can be "read" very easily with some instruction, while the scientific HamNoSys notation can be directly "read" only by very experienced experts, as it doesn't give an idea of the synthesis of parameter values or their exact sequencing. On the other side, having the possibiltiy to search for single parameter values via HamNoSys and have the findings related to the SignWriting of the respective signs would make research much easier than today. I suppose that interchangeability depends on the software code of SignWriting, i.e. if every parameter value can be extracted automatically from it.</DIV>
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<DIV>Best Regards</DIV>
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<DIV>Franz<BR><BR>>>> "Valerie Sutton" <sutton@SIGNWRITING.ORG> 7/5/2012 4:34 >>><BR>Hello Franz -</DIV>
<DIV>I want you to know I appreciate this conversation, and I am sorry if I said something that disturbed you -</DIV>
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<DIV>And thank you for pointing out Stefan's creative use of these tools in his classroom - Stefan is a remarkable teacher of Deaf children and is very creative indeed ;-)</DIV>
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<DIV>DELEGS is software that is dependent on glosses - I never even thought about that, but that is true...</DIV>
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<DIV>SignPuddle is not dependent on glosses. In SignText, I and others write directly in the movements of sign languages without ever using any gloss system or thinking in a spoken language…</DIV>
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<DIV>However, other SignPuddle users do use glosses to compose their documents - so it depends on the writer…SignPuddle has both options...</DIV>
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<DIV>So please tell me how I can correct my description of the process - I want to say it correctly… Perhaps it is the term "translation" that has a different meaning in the linguistics profession, that I do not understand? We have a Translate Feature in SignPuddle that is based on glosses, so we have used that term freely...</DIV>
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<DIV>Val ;-)</DIV>
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<DIV>On Jul 4, 2012, at 11:35 PM, <A href="mailto:Franz.Dotter@UNI-KLU.AC.AT">Franz.Dotter@UNI-KLU.AC.AT</A> wrote:</DIV><BR class=Apple-interchange-newline>
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<DIV>Dear Stefan and others,</DIV>
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<DIV>I really estimate your approach to use creative means in order to teach German (or any other spoken language to deaf students). I'm only pleading for correct info. What disturbed me was Valeries sentence: "can create documents that translate spoken language textbooks, into written sign language". I think all agree that a formulation like: "the program can a) convert glossed sign language sentences into SignWriting, b) convert single written German words into DGS or Signed Germanequivalents, given in SignWriting c) a written German sentence is converted word-by-word into DGS and Signed German equivalents, given in SignWriting, by that offering a Signed German version of the original sentence". These achievements are great enough and many teachers will take them over gratefully; therefore we need not say "there is translation from German to DGS".</DIV>
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<DIV>To give an example: If you take a German sentence like "Ich werde gehen" = (I will go), you get the auxiliary verb "werden" also as a sign (which is clearly Signed German; and has some pedagogical advanthge in some settings, but is not DGS)</DIV>
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<DIV>Concerning the mouthings: I understand the difference between the full "Mundbildschrift" and the hints given in DELEGS/SignWriting now. But the fact remains that these hints do not represent default mouthings as they are used in DGS; they are still hints towards spoken language (to repeat: I do neither critisise this from a pedagocical nor from a bilingual perspective; I only want to state that these elements are not (Greman) sign language elements).</DIV>
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<DIV>Best Regards</DIV>
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<DIV>Franz<BR><BR>>>> Stefan Wöhrmann<<A style="COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline" href="mailto:stefanwoehrmann@GEBAERDENSCHRIFT.DE">stefanwoehrmann@GEBAERDENSCHRIFT.DE</A>> 7/4/2012 11:46 >>><BR></DIV>
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<DIV style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=EN-GB>Hello Valerie, Franz and everyone –<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=EN-GB><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=EN-GB>It is just as you say Valerie and I want to repeat that.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=EN-GB><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=EN-GB>Delegs iss a wonderful tool to create bilingual materials and “</SPAN></FONT><B><U><FONT color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-WEIGHT: bold" lang=EN-GB>It depends on the skill of the writer (translator). It also depends on what the writer wants to do</SPAN></FONT></U></B><FONT color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black" lang=EN-GB>.”<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT color=black size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 12pt" lang=EN-GB><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT color=black size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 12pt" lang=EN-GB>So of course you can create translations from an idea expressed in spoken language to the same idea expressed in DGS. The wonderful thing is that you can rely on a written document which shows perfectly the writers idea how to sign this given concept or that shows how a given sign language performance can be translated to spoken language.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT color=black size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 12pt" lang=EN-GB><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT color=black size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 12pt" lang=EN-GB>Unfortunately there is obviously a misunderstanding in your idea that the “Mundbilder” </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black size=2 face=Tahoma><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=EN-GB>symbolise sounds within the SignWriting face – they do not!!!<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT color=black size=2 face=Tahoma><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=EN-GB><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT color=black size=2 face=Tahoma><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=EN-GB>Woehrmanns-speechwriting should not be mixed up with my invention of “Mundbildschrift” a system that supports the articulation process in deaf students...<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT color=black size=2 face=Tahoma><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=EN-GB><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT color=black size=2 face=Tahoma><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=EN-GB>The “Mundbilder” in SignWriting (GebaerdenSchrift) are simply meant to document mouth- tongue – lip movements - it is a guessing game like lipreading – but including the information coming from your hands it is easy to understand.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT color=black size=2 face=Tahoma><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=EN-GB><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT color=black size=2 face=Tahoma><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=EN-GB>Once more – Delegs - is a tool that allows anybody to create written documents of Sign language DGS, ASL, and spoken language. Why should this not be a translation? The scribe is just asked to write what he wants to write... smile.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT color=black size=2 face=Tahoma><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=EN-GB>Stefan<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B><FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Von:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><SPAN class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>linguists interested in signed languages [mailto:SLLING-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU]<SPAN class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Im Auftrag von<SPAN class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN></SPAN></B>Valerie Sutton<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Gesendet:</SPAN></B><SPAN class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>Mittwoch, 4. Juli 2012 16:03<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">An:</SPAN></B><SPAN class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><A style="COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline" href="mailto:SLLING-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU">SLLING-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</A><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Betreff:</SPAN></B><SPAN class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>Re: Antw: Re: SW-HamNoSys</SPAN></FONT><O:P></O:P></DIV></DIV>
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<DIV style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Hello Franz and everyone -<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">It depends on the skill of the writer (translator). It also depends on what the writer wants to do.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
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<DIV style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">If the software is used without a knowledge of sign languages, and how to translate, then you are right that any software and any writing system can be used incorrectly.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
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<DIV style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">But a translator who knows sign languages and spoken languages well, and knows how to translate between the languages, and knows how to use the SignWriting-related software to produce good translations, can produce linguistically correct documents using any SignWriting-related software.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
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<DIV style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">In the case of SignPuddle, we have an Editor called the SignText Editor. In the SignText Editor we can write directly in sign languages without any connection to spoken languages. We can also then save each individual sign within a sign language document, into a dictionary, which can then be accessed by DELEGS software.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
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<DIV style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Inside DELEGS software, the writer can then write the gloss for the sign language sentences that will access or bring in the signs from the special SignPuddle file created for the work…so the writer in DELEGS is not required to do Signed German - a translation that provides proper spoken German and proper DGS can be created using a combination of SignPuddle's SignText Editor, SignPuddle dictionaries, and the DELEG's Editor.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
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<DIV style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">I know the DELEGs developers are planning to produce their own Editor in time, but at the moment, this is how it is being done…<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
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<DIV style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Val ;-)<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
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<DIV style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">On Jul 3, 2012, at 11:48 PM,<SPAN class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><A style="COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline" href="mailto:Franz.Dotter@UNI-KLU.AC.AT">Franz.Dotter@UNI-KLU.AC.AT</A><SPAN class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>wrote:<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
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<DIV style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Dear colleagues,<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
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<DIV style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Concerning DELEGS you have to add that "translate" is not the adequate word here: DELEGS simply puts a German word into a SignWriting notation of an adequate DGS sign. If you use a real German sentence, you create pure Signed German. Only if you use a correct glossing of a signed sentence (i.e. if you know how the grammar of DGS), you will get a grammatically acceptable DGS sentence. Moreover, the face is enriched with a full notation of the sounds of the German word used (not only a possible mouthing).<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
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<DIV style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Both systems, the Woehrmann-system of symbolising sounds within the SignWriting face as well as DELEGS do have their merits for several educational settings and I would not like to underscore the creative work contained in them.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
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<DIV style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">But: There is no TRANSLATION from anywhere to somewhere. As there are some similar advertisements of "translation" in the context of sign languages /cf. e.g. also<SPAN class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><A style="COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline" href="http://www.pslt.org/">http://www.pslt.org/</A>), I'm a little bit concerned about the result of such advertisements when people from outside learn that all these announcemenst were not true. Please, tell the linguistic truth!<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
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<DIV style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Best Regards<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
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<DIV style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Franz Dotter<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
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<DIV style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
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<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><BR>1. Now, there is new software from the University of Hamburg and C1 WPS Workplace Solutions, called DELEGS, that coordinates with the SignPuddle DGS dictionary, Stefan and other teachers of Deaf students in Germany, can create documents that translate spoken language textbooks, into written sign language, so their students can understand both languages better and can grasp the content of the textbooks. So the German SignPuddles online are geared towards Deaf Education, and are used with this software:<BR><BR>DELEGS<BR><A style="COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline" href="http://www.delegs.com/delegseditor/">http://www.delegs.com/delegseditor/</A><BR><BR>DELEGS stands for "German Learning with SignWriting" but in German of course…I believe it is "Deutsch lernen mit GebaerdenSchrift" (Stefan and others, please correct me if I am wrong ;-))<BR><BR>Anyway - that specific database is impressive for its educational purpose…<BR><BR>THANK YOU, to all of you, who have created DELEGS…and thank you to Stefan Woehrmann for making this possible<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV></DIV>
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