[sw-l] non-deaf people and mouthing

[Valerie Sutton]

SignWriting List
February 25, 2005

Smile....I know I am Deaf-impaired, so it is not for me to analyze how 
Deaf people see mouth movements in the US....So I really appreciate it 
that Stuart and Adam have done that for us - thanks for explaining the 
issue of mouthing from the Deaf American perspective...It makes sense 
that there is a feeling of anger against oralism here and that is why 
mouthing words is less acceptable here in the US among ASL users....it 
is a backlash, perhaps, against the oral days...

BUT! Writing the mouth movements that are specific to ASL...that is 
important...How are you writing those mouth movements you mention 
below, Adam or Stuart or Philippe?...Can you post your writing of CHA, 
PAH, PING, TH, MMM, a tongue wag and a lip lap?...It would be fun to 
establish standard ways of writing those in SignWriting...which is 
different than mouthing English words...I think those ASL mouth 
movements could become entries in their own right, in the 
SignPuddle...don't you think?...

Val ;-)

---------------------

Adam Frost wrote:
> This whole discussion about Deaf mouthing in their native language is 
> quite interesting. I only knew a little about it in other countries. 
> In the US, however, Val is correct. You aren't considered a good ASL 
> signer if you mouth English words. This is because ASL has a 
> completely different syntax then English, and ASL has it's own 
> mouthing. CHA, PAH, PING, TH, MMM, a "tongue wag", and a "lip lap" to 
> name a few. Each have their own meaning that improve the quality of 
> the sentence. It takes people years to realize the difference between 
> ASL mouthing and English mouthing. The reason is that Deaf Americans 
> hated oralism from the beginning. I have videos of Deaf signers over a 
> hundred years ago, and they never moved their mouth because it was not 
> culturally accepted to be "oral." Just a quick spill that I needed to 
> say before I have to go to a meeting. If needed I will talk more about 
> this. ;-) (Sometimes it helps to have a Deaf native signers point of 
> view.)
>  
> Adam
>
> Shane Gilchrist Ó hEorpa <shane.gilchrist.oheorpa at francismaginn.org> 
> wrote:
> Val,
>
> We have a lot of non-deaf people who can sign fluently - as some 
> deafies ll
> say "oh they sign like a deaf person!" which is a bit unfair as there 
> are a
> lot of deaf people who mouth almost every word in English.
>
> My non-deaf mother mouth quite well in NISL whereas Dad mouth in 
> English
> (which is confusing) - but its cos Mam had Agnes Carberry, a very good 
> NISL
> teacher as her teacher AND her good mate.
>
> I believe non-deaf signers CAN mouth in ASL/NISL/BSL/VGT/DGS/PJM as 
> good if
> not better as deaf fluent signers :-)
>
> Shane
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu [mailto:owner-sw-
> > l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu] On Behalf Of Valerie Sutton
> > Sent: 25 February 2005 20:34
> > To: sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
> > Subject: Re: [sw-l] mouthing in the EU
> >
> &! gt; SignWriting List
> > February 25, 2005
> >
> > I just looked at our second video in the Deaf Perspectives on
> > SignWriting video series...and Butch Zein, from a Deaf family of
> > 5-generations Deaf, and Kevin Clark, three generations Deaf
> > family...they both did not mouth as much as I did, when I signed on 
> the
> > video! Shame on me! Obviously I am a non-Deaf person...but the born
> > Deaf native signers were using mouth movements related to ASL, but 
> not
> > to English mouthing...I wonder what native signers do in Europe, when
> > no hearing (non-deaf) people are in the room, and they are signing to
> > each other?...do they mouth spoken language?...Val ;-)
> >
> > ----------------------
> >
> >
> > On Feb 25, 2005, at 12:21 PM, Valerie Sutton wrote:
> >
> > > SignWriting List
> > > February 25, 2005
> > >
> > > On Feb 25, 2005, at 11:51 AM, Stuart Thiessen wrote:
> &! gt; >> It is my understanding that the primary difference in 
> mouthing
> > >> between ASL and some European sign languages is that in most 
> cases in
> > >> the US, the sign can be understood on its own separate from the
> > >> mouthed spoken language. Naturally, we do have our facial 
> expressions
> > >> which add information, but I am focused on where the mouthing 
> matches
> > >> English itself. Offhand, I can't think of an ASL sign that must 
> have
> > >> an English mouthing to distinguish its meaning from the same exact
> > >> sign but a different English mouthing. Can any other ASL users on 
> the
> > >> list think of an example? I know some ASL users will mouth a
> > >> specific English word as they sign to indicate the English word 
> they
> > >> want to convey, but the ASL concept is usually sufficient to
> > >> understand the sentence without the mouthing.
> > >!
>  > > Stuart, Shane, Stefan and Everyone -
> > > I believe, Stuart, that you are correct that there is a difference.
> > > Let me tell you why...
> > >
> > > Instinctively, as a non-Deaf person (smile....Shane likes the term
> > > non-Deaf rather than hearing person)....I know, that if a Deaf ASL
> > > signers starts mouthing English words while communicating with me,
> > > that they feel, that because I am hearing, I need that or I will 
> not
> > > understand them...But as a person who wants to learn ASL, I will 
> ask
> > > them to turn off any voice, and please don't mouth English to me,
> > > because I want to learn ASL, and they immediately say...wow! so 
> great
> > > to know a person who wants to learn ASL, and then they turn off the
> > > mouthing of English words, and I can understand their ASL much 
> better
> > > then...the mouthing confuses me because ASL is not English...that I
> &g! t; > think is proof that ASL does not have to have mouthing 
> English words
> > > to exist...The facial expressions in ASL are important to the 
> grammar,
> > > but they are not mouthing of a spoken language...
> > >
> > > Val ;-)
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
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> Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
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