AW: [sw-l] Sleeping Beauty part 5

Stefan Wöhrmann stefanwoehrmann at GEBAERDENSCHRIFT.DE
Mon Apr 30 08:19:50 UTC 2007

Hi Kelly Jo, 

I really enjoyed reading your comment and background information. Keep up
with your transcription - in the end you will have become an almost perfect
scribe - and that is worth it. And yes - keep on to write what you believe
to see - smile! 

Stefan ;-)

-----Urspr√ľngliche Nachricht-----
Von: owner-sw-l at
[mailto:owner-sw-l at] Im Auftrag von K.J. Boal
Gesendet: Montag, 30. April 2007 03:55
An: sw-l at
Betreff: Re: [sw-l] Sleeping Beauty part 5

I appreciate all the comments... thanks everyone!  I've had this idea in 
mind all along, that what I'm transcribing is exactly what I see on the 
video, and if something's hard for most people to read then it can be fixed 
up later.  I really like the idea of asking Darline to read the document 
herself!  That way we're not accidentally taking away from what she wanted 
to say or how she wanted to say it.

I certainly don't blame her for not being perfectly clear in her signing... 
you're quite right, Val, exactly the same thing happens in spoken languages 
when the person is speaking naturally.  I'd rather transcribe the natural 
signing than an artificial, "stilted" signing.

I haven't read "Catcher in the Rye", though I've heard of it, but I have 
read several other books written in dialect.  Some are harder to read than 
others... they do have value for some purposes, but there's also value to 
having standardized forms... I generally prefer standard writing over 
dialect, except in direct quotes.  In this case, however, I definitely think

the first draft should be as close to the video as possible, and any 
changes/improvements can be made later, by native ASL users. :-)  Thanks 
again for the feedback and encouragement, though... and thank YOU, Adam, for

figuring out what she was signing there!!! :-)  (That was really bugging 
me... but I would never have thought an ASL story would have the SEE 
apostrophe-S!  I recognize it now, but it just didn't occur to me before.)

Sorry I haven't been online lately... I meant to have the third part 
transcribed and up by now, but I've been in bed since Friday with a TERRIBLE

cold...  I haven't been this sick for a long time! :-(  The headache has 
been so bad that I haven't been on the computer since then... but I'm on the

mend now and looking forward to getting back to work tomorrow! :-)  Thursday

was my last day on the job, so now my work is transcribing Sleeping Beauty, 
taking care of the house, and making meals.  Looking forward to the break...


>From: "Valerie Sutton" <signwriting at MAC.COM>
>Reply-To: sw-l at
>To: sw-l at
>Subject: Re: [sw-l] Sleeping Beauty part 5
>Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 22:09:21 -0700
>Another good idea, after thinking about what Steve said, is after the  
>transcription is written, based exactly on the way Darline signed on  the 
>video, we could ask Darline to read the document, to see how she  feels 
>about the transcription. Maybe she would want to improve the  written 
>document to include the name of the other king...and so we 
>could ask Darline to be one of the editors to help us  make the written 
>document a little more formal and perhaps therefore  a little more 
>readable...but from the source of the signing...which  will show respect 
>for the language and for her performance ...
>Darline signed all four stories on the same day, in a studio, with  hot 
>lights, and did all four so well, that none had to be re- done...but it is 
>not surprising that when one performs like that,  that some signs are not 
>as clear as others...that is true in spoken  languages too...
>There is a famous book that I was required to read in school "Catcher  in 
>the Rye"...and the English writing was slang, or writing dialects  of 
>English ...trying to capture the way an individual spoke  
>English...shortening the word OLD becomes  ol' was

>very hard to read...that is what our  transcriptions might be compared to 
>in ASL...if we are always writing  each individual's style, I suppose it 
>could be harder to read in some  cases ...
>So if we transcribe exactly the way it is signed in the first draft,  we 
>can always edit it later...
>Val ;-)
>On Apr 27, 2007, at 9:25 PM, Adam Frost wrote:
>>I also agree with what Val and Stuart said too. Although, the  thought of 
>>changing some writings came to me when I was looking at  the part that was

>>giving Kelly Jo a hard time (I believe it is her  page 8) because Darlene 
>>essentially said that King Bert and the  (other) king's daughter would get

>>married when they grow up. :-P  But I decided not to even mention it 
>>before because that is how she  signed it and this is a transcription.
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: "Stuart Thiessen" <sw at>
>>Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 23:14:13
>>To:sw-l at
>>Subject: Re: [sw-l] Sleeping Beauty part 5
>>I would agree with Valerie. I think it is better when a text is
>>obviously from a video to transcribe it as it was signed on the
>>video ... sloppy or not. To me, the purpose of creating a document
>>from video is to create a snapshot of the person's style and how they
>>would tell the story. So, to do justice to the person, we should
>>transcribe it exactly.
>>At the same time, during the editing process, we may discover certain
>>grammatical errors or "pronunciation" errors or that sort of thing.
>>This will be more easily fixed in the printed text than on video.
>>Like Steve said, we would have to revideo that whole segment if we
>>were trying to fix the video.
>>On Apr 27, 2007, at 22:07, Valerie Sutton wrote:
>>>SignWriting List
>>>April 27, 2007
>>>In theory, this is true. If SignWriting ASL was an older writing
>>>system, and standardized spellings already existed in big
>>>dictionaries (grin) (I know there will be a day when this will be
>>>true)...that would be the right tact, to write the standardized
>>>spellings. But right now, there are several ways to spell some
>>>signs, and both spellings are correct from a movement perspective,
>>>so Kelly Jo is correct that this can be a dilemma, when
>>>standardized spellings do not exist yet, in the same way they do in
>>>English. So Kelly Jo does have to make decisions without any
>>>standardizations to point to...there is a possibility that a one-
>>>handed sign might be important for the grammar of the sentence in
>>>some the grammar can actually change the way the sign is
>>>signed sometimes..I have not looked at this video yet, but it
>>>could be possible...
>>>That is why, when I wrote Darline signing in Goldilocks, I tried to
>>>write it the way she signed it...partly because I did not know if
>>>it was important to ASL grammar to have a variation of the sign or
>>>not. For example, when she signed the sign for baby daughter, there
>>>were some blendings of signs that are a part of the grammar, and as
>>>a foreigner to ASL I didn't want to influence the writing with my
>>> the video was my security blanket, so to speak, to
>>>leave the ASL to Darline and I would not stand in judgement...just
>>>write the best I could "what I see on the video"...
>>>So this is an issue of time...and we write more and
>>>more literature..
>>>It is an exciting adventure to see this unfold...
>>>And it couldn't happen without SignPuddle!
>>>So Kelly Jo, I personally would write Darline as she signed
>>>general...with some exceptions of course! And then we can ask the
>>>DAC to make the final decisions on these issues...;-))
>>>This is just the first draft and there will be an editing process
>>>with Deaf writers before we publish, so don't worry too
>>>much...maybe make some notes to yourself where there are signs you
>>>are not sure of...
>>>Val ;-)
>>>Steve Slevinski wrote:
>>>>I'd write the correct sign correctly spelled..  That's the great
>>>>thing about text.  We can fix individual signs.  To fix this
>>>>particular sign on video they'd need to rerecord the entire segment.
>>>>K.J. Boal wrote:
>>>>>Thanks Charles... I definitely wanted to have both hands moving
>>>>>for "ground", but that's not
>>>>>how she signed it on the video.  I'm finding I'm running into
>>>>>this a fair bit... do I write what she signed, which I know is
>>>>>"sloppy", or do I write what I know the sign is *supposed* to
>>>>>look like?
>>>>>>From: "Charles Butler" <chazzer3332000 at>
>>>>>>Reply-To: sw-l at
>>>>>>To: sw-l at
>>>>>>Subject: Re: [sw-l] Sleeping Beauty part 5
>>>>>>Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 02:46:16 -0700 (PDT)
>>>>>>You wrote "dirt" just fine.
>>>>>>  Source: ASL
>>>>>>Modified: March 29, 2007 19:02
>>>>>>I think this is what the sign with the fingers rubbing in a
>>>>>>circle is supposed to be.
>>>>>>It's a very interesting challenge.
>>>>>>"K.J. Boal" <kjoanne403 at HOTMAIL.COM> wrote: Jon,
>>>>>>Second column second sign - no, the fingers are rubbing against
>>>>>>each other
>>>>>>in a circle.  The hands don't touch the chest.  I know that's
>>>>>>confusing... I
>>>>>>don't know how to make it clearer, though.  This and the third
>>>>>>sign are kind
>>>>>>of like a compound sign or a signed phrase meaning "Land".
>>>>>>>From: "Jonathan"
>>>>>>>Reply-To: sw-l at
>>>>>>>To: sw-l at
>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [sw-l] Sleeping Beauty part 5
>>>>>>>Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 07:59:58 -0600
>>>>>>>     Second column second sign.  I take that these hands are
>>>>>>>inward rubbing on the chest.  But in what direction?  I haven't
>>>>>>>this one out.
>>>>>>>     Second column third sign.  Place??? or Area???
>>>>>>>kjoanne403 at HOTMAIL.COM wrote:
>>>>>>>>How's it looking?
>>>>>>------------------------------------------------------------------ -
>>>>>>>>Load message into SignText
>>>>>>0A01-01-01-02,89,50,01-05-001-01-01-03,128,52,01-05-001-01-01-11,5 3
>>>>>>59,02-03-001-02-01-05,141,76,02-03-001-02-02-05,57,82,01-09-002-01 -
>>>>>>0A01-01-001-01-06-02,92,104,01-01-001-01-06-16,68,108,02-09-001-01 -
>>>>>>01-01,119,124,02-09-001-01-02-01,89,132,08-02-001-01-01-05,113,144 ,
>>>>>>0A01-05-011-01-04-08,113,114,01-05-011-01-04-08,85,123,02-09-001-0 1
>>>>>>-01-01,130,136,02-09-001-01-02-01,99,144,08-02-001-01-01-05,125,15 8
>>>>>>0A06-01-002-02-01-04,62,97,06-01-002-03-01-05,90,125,03-01-001-01- 0
>>>>>>1-01,80,60,03-06-001-01-01-05,80,60,02-01-001-01-01-01,115,59,02-0 1
>>>>>>-001-01-01-01,92,113,01-05-011-01-02-02,123,71,01-05-011-01-04-02, 1
>>>>>>0A05-01-001-01-01-01,90,100,02-01-001-01-01-01,90,108,02-01-001-01 -
>>>>>>01-01,123,139,02-03-001-02-01-06,98,117,01-03-018-01-01-03,123,140 ,
>>>>>>0A007-01-01-03,101,74,01-06-008-01-03-01,117,93,01-09-015-01-03-01 ,
>>>>>>>>Courtesy of
>>>>>>>>7050a2c230a1609105e3eca585ea1d72 =
>>>>>>>Jonathan & Yolaine Duncan
>>>>>>>8-)  & ;-)
>>>>>>Add the Windows Live Messenger NHL Stats Agent to your buddy
>>>>>>list and get
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