Sign Spelling Syllables question

Jonathan duncanjonathan at YAHOO.CA
Fri May 16 18:47:42 UTC 2008


Hi Val,
    I agree with you and Charles too.  Hasna, may I suggest that you use 
whole signs and look at the context to get meaning.  As a sign in one 
context can convey one idea but yet the same sign in another context can 
mean something quite different.

Jonathan

Valerie Sutton wrote:
> SignWriting List
> May 15, 2008
>
> Hello Hasna and Charles -
> Many thanks for your input, Charles...we are thinking the same ;-)
>
> Hasna - regarding programming versus the "real world of 
> signing"...there is no question they are two different worlds, and of 
> course it is hard to imagine translating between a spoken language 
> like French or English, which uses the Roman alphabet that is written 
> horizontally in a string from left to right, and compare that with a 
> writing system like SignWriting, that is written in visual 
> clusters...NOT written in a string...we do not write like the 
> SignSpellings look...one symbol after the other...we write in 
> two-dimensional relationships because those relationships, of the 
> hands under the head, and so forth...those clusters of symbols in 
> proper alignment with the human body...those "symbol relationships" 
> hold meaning to us in a way that the symbols from left to right could 
> never do...
>
> For example, if a sign is done over the head, it can mean one thing, 
> and if the sign is produced under the head, it could mean something 
> else, so the visual placement is important for meaning.
>
> So just placing symbols in a string doesn't give you the feeling or 
> the meaning of signs...
>
> That is the very reason why SignWriting works...because we don't write 
> "symbols in a line in sequence"...
>
> I realize this is no help to your project, and we can continue 
> discussing this...I can continue the discussion later tomorrow as I 
> have appointments all day today...
>
> Val ;-)
>
> --------
>
> Hasna Hocini wrote:
>> Thank you very much for your answers and interest to help me...
>> We are working on statistical translation.
>> The problem now is to find a compact representation  of signs, 
>> because if we use the two dimensional representations of signs (As it 
>> is in SWML: symbol code, position x,y ), it will not work and the 
>> results of our statistical translation system will not be satisfying.
>> So, we'll use the SignSpelling representation. If we can have the 
>> syllables also, It will improve the codification. We will have for 
>> example for the second syllable (Mvt syllable) less signs so we will 
>> not need to codify that on 13 positions as it is in SSS-2004 but two 
>> positions will be enough (177 movements symbols -> using the alphabet 
>> to codify them, two positions it will enough 26*26 =676).
>> Do you think I can do it in a different way?
>> Thanks a lot,
>> Hasna
>>
>>
>> --------------
>>
>>
>>
>> */Charles Butler <chazzer3332000 at yahoo.com 
>> <mailto:chazzer3332000 at yahoo.com>>/* a écrit :
>>
>>     I would agree.  Think of a sign as a whole concept, like Chinese,
>>     you are not translating stroke for stroke, you are translating a
>>     whole sign into a whole concept. 
>>
>>     The sign spelling helps one look up two signs in a dictionary by
>>     how they are produced, not by their meaning, just like ANGRY and
>>     APPLE can be looked up in the dictionary by spelling, not by
>>     meaning. 
>>
>>     In ASL, the ANGRY hand would be a 5-claw hand at the chest, APPLE
>>     would be a A-hand at the corner of the mouth.  They would sort by
>>     their handshapes first, but that has nothing to do with their
>>     meaning.
>>
>>     */Valerie Sutton <sutton at signwriting.org
>>     <mailto:sutton at signwriting.org>>/* wrote:
>>
>>         SignWriting List
>>         May 15, 2008
>>
>>         Hasna Hocini wrote:
>>         > 1- If I ask two signers to sign the word "Interesting".
>>         Will they do
>>         > it the same way?
>>         > What are the differences they will introduce ?
>>
>>         Hello Hasna and everyone -
>>
>>         Your work with translation from signwritten signs, into spoken
>>         language, is a big job but a fascinating subject...thank you for
>>         sharing your project with us ;-)
>>
>>         1. There are several signs for the concept of INTERESTING, in
>>         American
>>         Sign Language...Just like in other spoken languages, there are
>>         oftentimes several words you could use for one concept...
>>
>>         Here are three writings of the sign for INTERESTING in the ASL
>>         SignPuddle Dictionary, to give you an example....and there
>>         may be more
>>         variations and signs that could be equivalent as well...
>>
>>         The important thing to realize is that this has nothing to do
>>         with
>>         syllables. I cannot see how syllables have anything to do with
>>         translation, since the "whole word" or "whole sign" carries the
>>         meanings...the syllables do not have meanings... In this
>>         attached
>>         diagram, you can see the SignSpellings to the right of the
>>         signs (the
>>         tiny grey symbols in little boxes)...those are only for
>>         sorting the
>>         dictionary by symbols and not the way we actually write the
>>         signs...The fact that the SignSpellings can be divided into
>>         syllables
>>         is not important for sorting dictionaries...
>>
>>         Looking at the three attached signs...
>>
>>         1. two-handed sign
>>         2. same sign as 1, but one-handed
>>         3. different sign that can also mean fascinating
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
> Val ;-)
>
>
>
> Valerie Sutton
> Sutton at SignWriting.org <mailto:Sutton at SignWriting.org>
>
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