Ordering Signs

Charles Butler chazzer3332000 at YAHOO.COM
Tue Dec 1 17:10:31 UTC 2009

I am still confused.  I understand your going with Location first, I tend to go with handshape first, which would put anything with an index finger together, with neutral space first, then starting from the head down, that's the only apparent difference.  Neutral or hand contact seems to happen much more in ASL than LSQ.


From: Gagnon et Thibeault <atg at videotron.ca>
To: SignWriting List <sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu>
Sent: Tue, December 1, 2009 11:47:27 AM
Subject: Re: [sw-l] Ordering Signs

Hi Charles and 
you are right.  You will see the attached "head" 
----- Original Message ----- 
>From: Charles Butler 
>To: SignWriting List 
>Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 1:02 
>  PM
>Subject: Re: [sw-l] Ordering Signs
>I'm not sure how to read your dictionary, Andre,
>The first four 
>  entries seem to be by head.  Is that intentional?  I was trying to 
>  follow your logic and compare it to what I had proposed and using handshape as 
>  the first entry, and then location, the first four signs would follow 
>  differently.  The way you placed the BSL sign language I agree with, I'm 
>  just trying to understand your system.
>Charles Butler
 From: Valerie Sutton 
>  <sutton at signwriting.org>
>To: SignWriting List 
>  <sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu>
>Sent: Mon, November 30, 2009 12:23:21 
>  PM
>Subject: Re: [sw-l] 
>  Ordering Signs
>SignWriting List
>November 30, 
>  2009
>Hello Andre!
>I feel soooo happy to receive this message from 
>  you. What a remarkable message this is. Very few people in the history of 
>  SignWriting can provide information on testing how Deaf children look up 
>  signs, by Sign Symbols, in dictionaries written in SignWriting. That is 
>  because very few people have classrooms of Deaf children fluent in 
>  SignWriting, and your classroom in French-Canada, using LSQ, is one of those 
>  historic places, that we can point to, when discussing the theories on 
>  sign-symbol-searches.
>Of course there are classrooms around the world 
>  using SignWriting...Stefan Woehrmann's classroom in Germany, for example, and 
>  classrooms in Nicaragua and Belgium and Brazil and other countries...and they 
>  are all doing wonderful work...
>Have any other teachers tested how Deaf 
>  children look up signs in dictionaries without using any spoken language? Just 
>  searching for signs sorted by Sign-Symbol-Sequence (alphabetical order of 
>  SignWriting symbols)? If so, please tell us how it worked for your 
>  students...
>I am hoping to start, at the end of 2010, to improve our 
>  printed dictionaries...and then distribute the printed dictionaries to groups 
>  of signers to see if they can find signs in those printed dictionaries, sorted 
>  by Sign-Symbols...but that project hasn't started yet...
>I can see, 
>  Andre, that you have already started such a project and I am very interested 
>  to read your results...I will save this message to refer to later...and THANK 
>  YOU for sharing with us...
>What excites me the most, is that you have 
>  found that it is beneficial for your Deaf students, to use SignWriting in 
>  dictionaries. That is meaningful, to know that SignWriting is making a 
>  difference in people's lives...If it can help some Deaf children to learn how 
>  to use dictionaries, that is wonderful.
>Out of the 13 different 
>  handshapes listed in Group 1 of the ISWA, LSQ (Quebec Sign Language) only uses 
>  5 out of the 13 handshapes...The International SignWriting Alphabet was never 
>  meant to be used in its entirety by all sign languages...We all assume that 
>  each sign language will only use some of the symbols in the ISWA, just as the 
>  full IPA is not used to write this message in English...
>So I look 
>  forward to learning more about your project, Andre -
>Thanks again for 
>  your sharing with us -
>Val ;-)
>  Nov 29, 2009, at 3:50 AM, Gagnon et Thibeault wrote:
>> Hi Trevor, 
>  Charles, Gerard, Christophe, and everyone
>>    A Deaf 
>  teacher and I have been working on a Sign Writing LSQ (a written LSQ) 
>  dictionary for one month now.  The Deaf teacher has been testing if Deaf 
>  children are able to look up SW orders without alphabetic orders in the 
>  dictionary.
>>    It seems that it works well because 
>  Deaf children who have difficulties to read a written French can directly find 
>  a written LSQ to help them find a French word in the dictionary.
>>    Charles mentioned that handshape orders are “index 
>  finger”, “index & middle finger”, “index finger, middle, & thumb”, 
>  “four fingers”, “four fingers & thumb”, “thumb & small finger”, “thumb 
>  & ring finger”, “thumb & index finger”, and “thumb & fist”.  
>  I focus on “Index Finger”. You will see the attached ISWA.  The Index 
>  Finger has 13 different handshapes from ISWA in the world. However, the Index 
>  Finger of the LSQ has only 5 different handshapes.
>    In addition, you will see the attached location orders.  Location 
>  orders have 5 parts: 1) head & neck, 2) trunk & leg, 3) arm, 4) hand, 
>  5) neutral space.  If you look up a written LSQ in the dictionary, you 
>  must think from the high level of location to the low level of location. 
>  Contact symbols which include touch, hit, rub and so forth interact with a 
>  specific area of the body.  If the hand or the finger touches the nose, 
>  you look up quickly a head location order.  For example, if a signer 
>  produces BELIEVE (ASL), the index finger touches the middle front: you look up 
>  a “head” location order.  Another example, if the signer produces SHOW 
>  (ASL), the index finger of the right hand touches the palm of the left hand. 
>  You look up a hand location order.  If the signer produces ONE (ASL), the 
>  index finger is the  front of the shoulder without contact symbols.  
>  You look up a last (neutral space) location order.
>    You will see the attached SW orders.  You will find a first 
>  page.  You look up index finger and location orders. EYE (LSQ) is a 
>  highest level of the head than higher level of the head for TOOTH (LSQ) than a 
>  high level of the head for CANDY (LSQ) than a low level of the head for TO SAY 
>  (LSQ).
>>    Trevor, if the signer who uses a British 
>  manual alphabet produces “A” (BSL), the index finger of the right hand touches 
>  the thumb of the left hand (handshape 5).  You look up an index finger 
>  order and a hand location order in the BSL dictionary.  If the signer 
>  produces “I” (BSL), the index finger of the right hand touches the tip of the 
>  middle finger of the left hand (handshape  5).  You look up an index 
>  finger order and a hand location order. You will see the attached SW orders 
>  (page 21).
>>    We will adjust and test the LSQ 
>  dictionary.  We are still working on it.  If Trevor, Charles or 
>  everyone takes a (SW) workshop or attends a (SW) conference, we will be happy 
>  to teach him/her how to look up quickly your own sign language in the 
>  dictionary.
>>    Best regards,
>    André
>  SignWriting List
>  Message
>SW-L at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
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