Ordering Signs

Sun Nov 29 13:14:39 UTC 2009

Hoi,
You are blessed with the eye sight that makes this yellow and huge. Some
people have a visual impairment and for them this is how they CAN
communicate. I think we are blessed that Gagnon makes the effort to reach
out. He does validly and materially contribute.

I agree that YELLOW and BIG is not pleasant and I hope you will agree with
me that once you know why it is easily overcome.
Thanks,
      Gerard

2009/11/29 Trevor Jenkins <bslwannabe at gmail.com>

> Sorry Gagnon iI can't read this! Huge text and yellow font ... yuck.
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 29, 2009 at 11:50 AM, Gagnon et Thibeault <atg at videotron.ca>wrote:
>
>>  *Hi Trevor, Charles, Gerard, Christophe, and everyone*
>> **
>> *    A Deaf teacher and I have been working on a Sign Writing LSQ (a
>> written LSQ) dictionary for one month now.  The Deaf teacher has been
>> testing if Deaf children are able to look up SW orders without alphabetic
>> orders in the dictionary.*
>> **
>> *    It seems that it works well because Deaf children who have
>> difficulties to **read a written French can directly find a written LSQ
>> to help them find a French word in the dictionary.*
>> **
>> *    Charles mentioned that handshape orders are “index finger”, “index &
>> middle finger”, “index finger, middle, & thumb”, “four fingers”, “four
>> fingers & thumb”, “thumb & small finger”, “thumb & ring finger”, “thumb &
>> index finger”, and “thumb & fist”.  I focus on “Index Finger”. You will see
>> the attached ISWA.  The Index Finger has 13 different handshapes from ISWA
>> in the world. However, the Index Finger of the LSQ has only 5 different
>> handshapes.*
>> **
>> *    In addition, you will see the attached location orders.  Location
>> orders have 5 parts: 1) head & neck, 2) trunk & leg, 3) arm, 4) hand, 5)
>> neutral space.  If you look up a written LSQ in the dictionary, you must
>> think from the high level of location to the low level of location. Contact
>> symbols which include touch, hit, rub and so forth interact with a specific
>> area of the body.  If the hand or the finger touches the nose, you look up
>> quickly a head location order.  For example, if a signer produces BELIEVE
>> (ASL), the index finger touches the middle front: you look up a “head”
>> location order.  Another example, if the signer produces SHOW (ASL), the
>> index finger of the right hand touches the palm of the left hand. You look
>> up a hand location order.  If the signer produces ONE (ASL), the index
>> finger is the front of the shoulder without contact symbols.  You look up a
>> last (neutral space) location order.*
>> **
>> *    You will see the attached SW orders.  You will find a first page.
>> You look up index finger and location orders. EYE (LSQ) is a highest level
>> of the head than higher level of the head for TOOTH (LSQ) than a high level
>> of the head for CANDY (LSQ) than a low level of the head for TO SAY (LSQ).
>> *
>> **
>> *    Trevor, if the signer who uses a British manual alphabet produces
>> “A” (BSL), the index finger of the right hand touches the thumb of the left
>> hand (handshape 5).  You look up an index finger order and a hand location
>> order in the BSL dictionary.  If the signer produces “I” (BSL), the index
>> finger of the right hand touches the tip of the middle finger of the left
>> hand (handshape 5).  You look up an index finger order and a hand location
>> order. You will see the attached SW orders (page 21).*
>> **
>> *    We will adjust and test the LSQ dictionary.  We are still working on
>> it.   If Trevor, Charles or everyone takes a (SW) workshop or attends a (SW)
>> conference, we will be happy to teach him/her how to look up quickly your
>> own sign language in the dictionary.*
>> **
>> *    Best regards,*
>> **
>> *    André*
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>  *From:* Christopher Miller <christophermiller at mac.com>
>> *To:* SignWriting List <sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu>
>> *Cc:* Christopher Miller <christophermiller at mac.com>
>> *Sent:* Thursday, November 26, 2009 1:05 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: [sw-l] Ordering Signs
>> ****
>> Just  a short note about the origin of standard alphabetical order: it
>> actually descends from one of two orders used in the ancient Ugaritic
>> alphabet ca 14th century BCE. (Scroll down to "Alphabetic order" at
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alphabet.) The order has been kept overall
>> in all the non-Indic descendants of the West Semitic alphabets except for
>> the reformed Arabic alphabet, which nevertheless kept it for letters used as
>> numerals like the way we use a, b, c... in lists. The chart from the primer
>> that you cite is rather ingenious in the way it tries to shoehorn the
>> alphabetically ordered letters into aligning by place of articulation but
>> nearly as many letters fall through the cracks as fit into the arrangement.
>>
>> Using conventional alphabetic orders for the handshapes of different sign
>> languages, following the handshape-letter pairings in various manual
>> alphabets, has the advantage (in each sign language) of using an order
>> familiar from the surrounding written version of the spoken language, but
>> there are always more handshapes than those in the manual alphabet, and the
>> ones in the manual alphabet are not all necessarily used in signs
>> themselves, as opposed to representing written letters for fingerspelling.
>> And, in two-handed alphabets like the British manual alphabet or other older
>> ones used in Italy, Indonesia or North America, a printed letter does not
>> usually correspond to a single given handshape and vice versa. ANd of
>> course, there are many more symbols apart from handshapes in any system for
>> writing or notating signs, whether Signwriting, Stokoe, Hamnosys or any
>> other: locations, movements etc.
>>
>> So whatever the system, the best choice is to base the collation order on
>> aspects of the actual structure of the handshapes and other structural
>> elements used to make signs. Still, once you start on this basis, there are
>> lots of choices, some of them essentially arbitrary, as to what groups of
>> symbols, and what symbols within these groups, should be placed in what
>> order.
>>
>>  On 2009-11-26, at 12:10 PM, Charles Butler wrote:
>>
>>   I understand your concern that SW is too young to mandate an order as
>> it may grow linguistically for some situations.  However, the groups of
>> handshapes are by fingers used, so though they are also ASL numbers, they
>> are based on which fingers are being used in a sign, which makes them very
>> useful in clustering signs together that all use the "index finger", the
>> "index and middle finger", the "index finger, middle, and thumb", the "four
>> fingers", "the four fingers and thumb", "the thumb and small finger", the
>> "thumb and ring finger", the "thumb and index finger" and the "thumb/fist".
>>
>>
>> One can cluster in any number of ways.  Just as aside, the Roman Alphabet
>> is thought to have been based on a primer
>>
>> A B C D
>> E F G     H
>> I          J
>>        K     L
>>    M     N
>> O P Q     R
>>             S
>>             T
>> U V W X Y
>>             Z
>>
>> There are missing sounds, but a grid in order of vowels, bilabials,
>> gutterals, dentals, and liquids seems to work for me.
>>
>>  ------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
>
> --
> Regards, Trevor.
>
> <>< Re: deemed!
>
>
>
>
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