receptive vs. expressive - history?

Thu Oct 22 01:30:31 UTC 2009

Gerard,

The writing system can write human movement.  The alphabet is called the International Movement Writing Alphabet, meaning it can write anything at all that the human being can do.  One component is Sign Writing, another larger component is Dance Writing, all of them can write anything at all.

If I write what someone else is doing, like I'm watching a movie and signing in time to the music, both are showing what I see.  Just like writing two people mirroring each other, one person is using their left hand, the other is using their right, they are NOT doing the same thing.  If I write what I see in a mirror, I will have to reverse everything to be accurate to what is actually taking place.  The person I see in the mirror is not using their right hand, they are using their left hand.   

So, what I'm saying is that who are you writing, both are signing, and I am signing with my right hand primary, the person in the mirror is signing with the primary left hand.  Both signs are accurate.  If I point to myself, which hand am I using, has the meaning changed? No.  

I don't yet know of a signed language where, with the exception of direction, that a sign that uses primary right hand to sign, for example "touch" in ASL, where the primary right  hand, middle finger extended touches the back of the primary left hand is any different, in meaning to the sign being made using a primary left hand.

I had to sit there with a person who consistently mirrored what I did, to write what he actually saw on his own hands.  He was a primary lefty, so that any sign I gave he wanted to write with primary left hands, even though the sign I gave him was primary right.  If you don't teach people to actually write WHAT THEY SEE, and think of taking what that person is doing and internalize it, you will get a primary lefty writing a sign in mirror image when transcribing another person.  

So, what language is he writing?  He is writing his own sign language as he signs it.   Is it correct, in the meta sense, yes, but in the exercise sense of writing what he sees me signing, no it is not.  Both signs are real signs, both are actually sign language, but if the exercise is to teach accurate transcription, I have to correct mirror writing.

Charles

--- On Wed, 10/21/09, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [sw-l] receptive vs. expressive - history?
To: "SignWriting List" <sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu>
Date: Wednesday, October 21, 2009, 5:50 PM

Hoi,
Maybe, but is it SignWriting ...
Thanks,
      GerardM

2009/10/21 Charles Butler <chazzer3332000 at yahoo.com>

When I taught in Brazil it was expressive writing.  I corrected anyone in the class who was writing my demonstration hands.  However, the fact that human movement can be written either way is incontrovertible.  The fact that when one is copying the movement of a teacher that one internalizes the movement to express it helps to get that point across.  

Write what you see has a step of "internalize the movement" so that left is left and right is right.  That is a step in itself.
Charles Butler

--- On Wed, 10/21/09, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com>

Subject: Re: [sw-l] receptive vs.
 expressive - history?
To: "SignWriting List" <sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu>
Date: Wednesday, October 21, 2009, 6:38 AM

Hoi,
When you teach the SignWriting of ASL, you do your students a disservice when you teach them the receptive view. When you transscribe a sign language and you use the receptive view AND you use SignWriting you place an unreasonable burden on the people who have to make use of your transscriptions. It is similar to writing English from right to left.  

The issue with standards is that they are there for everyone. For SignWriting to be accepted, it is vital that the conventions, the standards used with the script are complied with by everyone.
Thanks,
      Gerard

2009/10/21 Charles Butler <chazzer3332000 at yahoo.com>

For me, I learned receptive first, so it was literally "write what you see" when you are seeing someone else's hands.  Then when they switched, I considered it an extension.  I just teach "write what you see".  Then receptive is for transcribing something brand new if you don't know the meaning, and then expressive when you have moved it to your own hands.  Expressive has become the standard for the dictionaries and most usage.  Dance writing is still, apparently, receptive.  It took me hours to transcribe video tape because I think to write what someone else is doing, and then reverse it to my hands is the challenge.

Charles

--- On Tue, 10/20/09, MARIA AZZOPARDI <maria.azzopardi at um.edu.mt> wrote:

From: MARIA AZZOPARDI <maria.azzopardi at um.edu.mt>
Subject: [sw-l] receptive vs. expressive - history?
To: "SignWriting List" <sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu>

Date: Tuesday, October 20, 2009, 5:13 PM

Hi all,

I was wondering what to do with the receptive and expressive view points,
when teaching signwriting.

As teachers of signwriting, would you include this explanation - or would

presenting the two possibilities create a problem that might not be there.

I've found that when I explain how to signwrite the different orientations
I explain the 'expressive viewpt' and never include the receptive view, so

as not to 'teach' them something that I will later have to unteach.

do you find that explaining the expressive view and leaving out the
'receptive' writing,
 acceptable?

thanks
Maria

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