invisible person in ASL storytelling...

Thu Sep 24 12:28:02 UTC 2009

Writing the language.  I'm getting some interesting comments on another list about "sign language linguistics" and the people complaining "why should I write the language, who will I share it with, sending someone Morse Code in sign language? ", and how boring it is (They are using Stokoe).  I would state, with Stokoe, it's all analysis, with Sign Writing, you are simply writing the language, with all its beauty.

Charles

--- On Thu, 9/24/09, Ingvild Roald <iroald at hotmail.com> wrote:

From: Ingvild Roald <iroald at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [sw-l] invisible person in ASL storytelling...
To: sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
Date: Thursday, September 24, 2009, 6:51 AM

Hi all,

I hereby humbly retract from my former position about writing the invisible person: if the grammatical markers etc. are there as they should be in real language writing, then the writing should contain what is visible, not that which is not visible. - I have discussed this with native signers, and am fully content with this understanding of how to write. I also agree with Val that this shows the importance of writing the language, and not just glosses or some other 'easy way out'.

Ingvild 

> From: sutton at signwriting.org
> To: sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
> Subject: Re: [sw-l] invisible person in ASL storytelling...
> Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 11:14:22 -0700
> 
> SignWriting List
> September 21, 2009
> 
> Hello Natasha, and everyone -
> Yes. This is a good point. I was answering a specific question about 
> how to write one or two signs, but it was taken from a much larger 
> document that was a transcription from a videotape of ASL 
> storytelling...so you are right that if the ASL is written accurately 
> before those signs occurred in the document, there would be eye-gaze 
> and other ASL grammar details that would automatically give the reader 
> the markers needed to read the ASL, just as the ASL is understood in 
> person...the "invisible person" would be established with eyegaze and 
> other factors...
> 
> And Ingvild, I agree that this shows the value of writing sign 
> languages, because we are required to write these grammar details to 
> make sure the reader knows what is happening...just as individual 
> words in a spoken language document can be taken out of context, so 
> can individual signs...we need to read the whole document to know what 
> is being said...
> 
> Thanks for the great discussion! Val ;-)
> 
> -------
> 
> 
> 
> On Sep 21, 2009, at 4:13 AM, Natasha Escalada-Westland wrote:
> 
> > Wouldn't the "invisible" person have already been mentioned or 
> > implied by the eye-gaze of the signer slightly previously in the 
> > story? If these subtleties are missed by the translator, it would 
> > appear strange or incomplete(invisible) to someone reading it later.
> >
> > Natasha Escalada-Westland, M.Ed. (D/HH), Certified Interpreter - NIC
> >
> > --------
> 
> 
> > From: iroald at hotmail.com
> > To: sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
> > Subject: RE: [sw-l] invisible person in ASL storytelling...
> > Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 04:57:06 +0200
> >
> > This is something I will have to discuss with my Deaf friends
> >
> > Ingvild
> >
> > -------
> 
> >
> > Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 12:43:46 -0700
> > From: chazzer3332000 at yahoo.com
> > Subject: Re: [sw-l] invisible person in ASL storytelling...
> > To: sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
> >
> > There are, in fact, comic books in Brazil that are being captioned 
> > in Sign Writing, so perhaps that is the end result, one ends up 
> > having a captioned story of several people, but not the natural 
> > language which tells stories by body postures.
> >
> > If one is talking about a bowl of soup, for instance, one can set up 
> > the bowl, hold it in place with one hand, and add all sorts of 
> > ingredients, but there is not an "invisible" bowl hanging there, it 
> > is a placeholder created by one's hand.
> >
> > Charles
> >
> > --- On Fri, 9/18/09, Cherie Wren <cwterp at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > From: Cherie Wren <cwterp at yahoo.com>
> > Subject: Re: [sw-l] invisible person in ASL storytelling...
> > To: "SignWriting List" <sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu>
> > Date: Friday, September 18, 2009, 3:33 PM
> >
> > You are no longer showing the language when you do this, though. 
> > Now you are creating some sort of pictorial story in a strange set 
> > of symbols, but it is not sign language anymore. If that is your 
> > aim, then get an artist to do a picture-story/comic book.
> >
> > cherie
> >
> > From: Charles Butler <chazzer3332000 at yahoo.com>
> > To: SignWriting List <sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu>
> > Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 10:46:03 AM
> > Subject: RE: [sw-l] invisible person in ASL storytelling...
> >
> > I would have to agree, one could show two people on the road as an 
> > interpreter, or one could show two people as a language, which means 
> > the interpreter is not the person being conveyed, but the two people 
> > he or she is talking about.
> >
> > An interpreter can convey by posture that there are three people 
> > present, but if one writes out the story, one can flesh out the 
> > details and actually show the three people involved, putting each of 
> > them in a different lane, just as one one in Dance Writing.
> >
> > --- On Fri, 9/18/09, Ingvild Roald <iroald at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > From: Ingvild Roald <iroald at hotmail.com>
> > Subject: RE: [sw-l] invisible person in ASL storytelling...
> > To: sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
> > Date: Friday, September 18, 2009, 10:37 AM
> >
> > Actually, I do not agree with Val that the job is to write what is 
> > seen on the video. That will not get the message of the original 
> > story across. This is maybe one of the reasons we really need to 
> > sign languages: that the video translation is not a full translation 
> > form English (or Greek) to ASL, but a partial one. With the written 
> > form, we are able to bring in the second person, not visible in the 
> > video.
> >
> > Thus, I prefer the first version, with the 'invisible' person present
> >
> > Ingvild
> >
> >
> >
> > > From: sutton at signwriting.org
> > > To: sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
> > > Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 12:20:23 -0700
> > > CC: josignj at aol.com
> > > Subject: [sw-l] invisible person in ASL storytelling...
> > >
> > > SignWriting List
> > > September 16, 2009
> > >
> > > On Sep 15, 2009, at 12:32 PM, Valerie Sutton wrote:
> > > > I am watching a video (if you can see the video it is the Bible,
> > > > Mark 07_31-37 at .43 on the counter). Jesus is healing a Deaf/Mute
> > > > man. -- First Jesus sticks his fingers into the mans ears and then
> > > > removes them.---- So how do I show to whom Jesus to doing this 
> > to...
> > >
> > > Hello Jonita and everyone -
> > > You are writing from an ASL videotape that Deaf Missions made of the
> > > Bible. The signer is Patrick Graybill, and he did an excellent
> > > description of Jesus placing his index fingers in a Deaf man's 
> > ears to
> > > heal him...when he signed this story, Patrick did not have a real
> > > person to place his index fingers into...he had to show this story 
> > in
> > > ASL, without anyone else standing in front of him...
> > >
> > > So your job is to try to write what you see Patrick do on the 
> > video...
> > >
> > > Everyone sees things a little differently, but here is my writing of
> > > this position and movement, plus attached are clips from the video 
> > of
> > > Patrick...
> > >
> > > How did I write this?
> > >
> > > 1. First I place the shoulders and head facing the left front corner
> > >
> > > 2. Second, I write the hands in the sign over to the left side of 
> > the
> > > head and shoulders, like this:
> > >
> > >
> >
> > -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
> >
> >
> >
> >
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