# [Sw-l] Forearm Rotation or axial motion symbols

rchannon1 at VERIZON.NET rchannon1 at VERIZON.NET
Tue Feb 27 19:43:35 EST 2018

```Hi Adam (and everyone),  thank you for the explanation!

What you said about a watch gave me an idea that I think makes sense of the rotation symbols. When we use English words to describe what the symbols mean, I think we should use the words clockwise and anticlockwise. In order to use these words, we also need to decide where the clock face is, so here is the procedure I suggest:

Imagine that there is a clock that is stuck to the end of your extended index finger so that your finger is right at the center of the clock.  Now make an ILY handshape (the index extended and the thumb and pinky extended and spread away from the index).  If we imagine that the thumb and pinky are sort of like the hands of a clock (except that they always move together), then we can use that to understand whether a particular sign is moving clockwise or anticlockwise.  Once we know that, then we can pick the right signwriting symbol.

Here is an example.

The sign HAPPEN:  The right hand moves anticlockwise.  If we make the movement of HAPPEN (right hand), but substitute the ILY handshape then we see the thumb moving down and left, and the pinky moving up and right.

The left hand moves clockwise.    Again, if we make the movement of HAPPEN (left hand), but substitute the ILY handshape then we see the thumb moving down and right, and the pinky moving up and left.

So now we can pick our symbols.  For the right hand, we select

񉳁

For the left hand, we select:

񉳙

Does this explanation make sense?

Here is another example:

ASL 16 – right hand is anticlockwise

񋎩

OR

񋎭

I think that Adam would prefer the first symbol?  But both symbols move anticlockwise, so as Valerie explains in the lessons in the book, they are the same movement technically.

Rachel

From: SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages <SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU> On Behalf Of Adam Frost
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2018 7:16 PM
To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
Subject: Re: [SPAM] RE: Forearm Rotation or axial motion symbols
Importance: Low

There is only a minor difference in the two symbols. If you look down at your watch–assuming it is an analog, the movement for BLUE would rotate from 3 o’clock to 9 o’clock and then back again. The movement for COMPARE would rotate from 12 o’clock to 6 o’clock and back. So while the movements are still the same, the differences is where the movement starts and stops.

Now most people, like you said, don’t notice such a difference. So why would a writer choose to write it differently? Maybe they felt there was such a noticeable difference. Another reason might just be that they wanted to make it so that people would read the signs faster.

On Feb 23, 2018, at 3:30 PM, <rchannon1 at VERIZON.NET <mailto:rchannon1 at VERIZON.NET> > <rchannon1 at VERIZON.NET <mailto:rchannon1 at VERIZON.NET> > wrote:

Hello everyone.  I had to stop and work on my taxes, but now I am back to thinking about rotation symbols.  Here is my question for today:

The ASL sign BLUE rotates the right flat hand back and forth quickly. The arm points straight up.

The palmside of the forearm starts by facing halfway between left and the signer/writer. Then the forearm  rotates so that the palmside of the forearm  faces  halfway between left and an imaginary viewer (or forward).  This happens several times quickly.

The symbol that is used to show this is:

񋑡   <image002.png>

The ASL sign COMPARISON rotates the right hand back and forth slowly. The hand is hinged or slightly bent at the big knuckles.  The arm points straight up.

The palmside of the forearm starts by facing halfway between left and the signer/writer. Then the forearm rotates so that the palmside of the forearm faces  halfway between left and an imaginary viewer (or forward).  This happens one or two times.

The symbol that is used to show this is:

񋑧 <image004.png>

In my versions of these two signs, there is almost no difference between them except the BLUE is a little faster and the palm of the hand is flat, not hinged.   To me, the forearm rotation looks the same.

So why are we using different symbols for the rotation?

Any help or ideas appreciated!

Rachel

From: SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages < <mailto:SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU> SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU> On Behalf Of Adam Frost
Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2018 10:39 AM
To:  <mailto:SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU> SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
Subject: Re: [SPAM] RE: Forearm Rotation or axial motion symbols
Importance: Low

I had just copied and pasted the image, so this time I saved it and attached it. Can you see it now?

<image005.png>

On Feb 6, 2018, at 6:47 AM, < <mailto:rchannon1 at VERIZON.NET> rchannon1 at VERIZON.NET> < <mailto:rchannon1 at VERIZON.NET> rchannon1 at VERIZON.NET> wrote:

I have been hoist with my own petard.  Others have complained they cant see my symbols,  now I cant see Adam’s…  Adam, would you mind reposting your email with the pictures as screenshots?  I think I should be able to see those (I hope).  Rachel

From: SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages [ <mailto:SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU> mailto:SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU] On Behalf Of Adam Frost
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2018 10:17 PM
To:  <mailto:SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU> SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
Subject: Re: [SPAM] RE: Forearm Rotation or axial motion symbols
Importance: Low

I have always been referred to as a man of few words. ;-)

I think there is another sign without any “obvious” hinge like there is with DOOR. Take the ASL sign for 16. It could technically be written as either of the following.

But if you were to ask a Deaf person which way the arm rotates, they will always say it twists outward rather than inward. So they would always choose the first writing. From a movement viewpoint, this is because the axial of rotation is actually closer to the thumb rather than the pinky. (The first writing has the movement focused on the pinky.)

On Feb 5, 2018, at 7:05 PM, Valerie Sutton < <mailto:signwriting at MAC.COM> signwriting at MAC.COM> wrote:

SignWriting List

February 5, 2018

I love the way Adam explains everything is half the words than I do...

Thank you Adam - keep teaching - it is an excellent explanation ;-)

On Feb 5, 2018, at 7:02 PM, Adam Frost < <mailto:icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM> icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM> wrote:

>From a purely movement symbol theoretical analysis view, both movements are the same. However, you are right that one has more of a focus on the thumbs rotation while the other has more of a focus on the pinky (or the baby finger as Val calls it). The reason for this is because it really depends on where the center of rotation takes places. With the sign for DOOR, the pinky acts as the hinge of the door. That is the reason the movement symbol that focuses on the thumbs rotation is always used.

On Feb 5, 2018, at 6:16 PM, < <mailto:rchannon1 at VERIZON.NET> rchannon1 at VERIZON.NET> < <mailto:rchannon1 at VERIZON.NET> rchannon1 at VERIZON.NET> wrote:

Hi Valerie, I’ve started looking through the lessons.   Several times, I see the statement: imagine that you have black ink on your thumb or pinky…

The problem that I have is that when the forearm rotates the thumb and pinky move in opposite directions.

In CLOSE-a-door, I start with my right palm facing left, and end with the palm facing the viewer.

The thumb curves OUT to viewer & LEFT.

The pinky curves    IN to signer     & RIGHT.

So should I use this symbol, which moves to the right:  S2df0c because that looks like the thumb movement:

<image006.png>

OR should I use this symbol S2df08 which looks like what the pinky is doing?

<image007.png>

And of course, the reverse question holds for OPEN-a-door:

Should I use  this symbol, which moves to the right:  S2df0c because that looks like the PINKY movement

<image006.png>

OR should I use this symbol S2df08 which looks like what the THUMB is doing?

<image007.png>

If I can choose whichever one I feel like, then it seems to me that I would not be able to say whether I was opening or closing the door.   Am I thinking right?

If I am thinking right, then that is fine, and I will just list the rotation symbols as forearm rotation without trying to decide which way the forearm rotates.  But if that information is there in the symbol, it would be good to capture it.

Rachel

From: SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages [ <mailto:SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU> mailto:SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU] On Behalf Of Valerie Sutton
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2018 1:05 PM
To:  <mailto:SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU> SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
Subject: Re: [SPAM] Forearm Rotation or axial motion symbols
Importance: Low

SignWriting List

February 3, 2018

Good Saturday everyone!

Yes, this is a fun discussion on Rotation Symbols.

We are having electricity problems in my home (where I work), and an electrician is on his way to help us. I do not know how long the repairs will take, but it may be all day, so I will not be able to answer or discuss anything until tomorrow, Sunday. I look forward to it!

But one point while I can chat... We have some eLessons on our web site, teaching the Rotation Symbols in conjunction with other Curved Movements, and the eLessons use the wonderful illustrations by Steve Parkhurst (thank you again Steve ;-).

If you go through each web page, and scroll down and read everything there, I think it might become clearer... Start with this web page:

<http://www.signwriting.org/lessons/elessons/less012.html> http://www.signwriting.org/lessons/elessons/less012.html

(remember to scroll down)

and keep reading through this web page:

<http://www.signwriting.org/lessons/elessons/less015.html> http://www.signwriting.org/lessons/elessons/less015.html

and then other web pages:

<http://www.signwriting.org/lessons/elessons/less026.html> http://www.signwriting.org/lessons/elessons/less026.html

<http://www.signwriting.org/lessons/elessons/less040.html> http://www.signwriting.org/lessons/elessons/less040.html

<http://www.signwriting.org/lessons/elessons/less041.html> http://www.signwriting.org/lessons/elessons/less041.html

and an important one:

<http://www.signwriting.org/lessons/elessons/less074.html> http://www.signwriting.org/lessons/elessons/less074.html

It explains where to place the Rotation Symbols...above or below the hands? See screen capture below. This is related to the Pinkie and Thumb - but that we need another discussion for - There are rules for that too, but they are not posted in eLessons yet and I think they should be...

Have a great day everyone!

<image001.png>

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